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coolguy
06-23-2018, 04:46 PM
Haplogroup R2 (one of the most common haplogroups in India) is in the same family as R1a. But it diverged from R1a a long time ago. It's very rare outside South Asia and it peaks in Sinhalese Sri Lankans and South Indians. Did this haplogroup come due to West Eurasian migrants or was it indigenous to India (Ancestral South Indians)?

Rethel
06-24-2018, 09:10 AM
I think, that it is possible, that R2 is the same IE as R1.
There are very good reasons for that. Especially after
discovering the Maltaboy, it is almost certain. And btw,
there is no place for R2 in India without IEs. Dravidians
are H, Indus Valley L, some Monkhmers O, and some
old austroveddo-migrants C. Who would be R2? Noone.

Tomasso29
06-25-2018, 01:45 AM
The existence of R2 outside of South Asia may not be common, but it's definitely not rare.

anthroin
06-25-2018, 04:21 AM
Y-DNA haplogroup R2 has been found most so far in aDNA from the neolithic sites from Iran where they collected aDNA- Ganj Dareh for example. I think it should have its ultimate origins somewhere in Central Asia (ANE or ANE-like population) of course, but it seems that it got into Iran and perhaps also India quite early and not solely with the Indo-Aryan migrations. Such scheduled tribe groups as Irula in the deep south, Karmali of West Bengal (apparently at 100% frequency) have significant amounts of it, along with middle and upper caste groups located in more eastern parts of India, like Kapus, Kammas, Janpur Kshatriyas, Sinhalese people as you noted who might themselves have some significant numbers of descendants of migrants from more eastern parts of India (there is also a possibility Sinhala language may originate from more eastern Prakrits rather than western Prakrits), etc. While it appears R2 might have been present in Iran at least since some point in the mesolithic, in the case of India it is not very clear- if, as some say, there were linkages between ancient Central Asian hunter gatherers and ancient South Asian hunter gatherers, then R2 is a good candidate (perhaps along with some other haplogroups like some types of subclades of C) for being a part of this interaction in my opinion. But significant levels of R2 may also have come during later northwestern neolithic, mediated by pastoralist and farmer males from Iran, to first the northwest and then to inner India, where for some reason, it ended up getting heavily concentrated on the eastern side (or it appears to me so). Some R2 may have come with the Indo-Aryan migrations also, if the Indo-Aryans picked up some BMAC Iran_N-like descendants on their way. What I wrote above is rather standard fare. You should also find all kinds of discussions about R2 done already, perhaps to almost the full extent possible, in the R2 forum on this site.

I have gone through the Y-DNA haplogroup information from the recent Narasimhan et al. Central Asia aDNA pre-print and these were the R2 individuals from that paper:

From South Asia:

1. I8245- Aligrama_IA, Swat valley, 970-550 BCE: R2a3a2b2b1. The two other males from Aligrama belonged to G2a2a and L1a.
2. I5399- Katelai_IA, Swat valley, 1000-800 BCE: R2a3a. The one other male from Katelai belonged to J2a1.
3. S8997.E1.L1- Loebanr_IA, Swat valley, 900-800 BCE: R2a. The other males from Loebanr were L1a (4 in number), C1b1a1a1, Q1b2 and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.
4. S7722.E1.L1- Saidu_Sharif_IA_o, Swat valley, 500-300 BCE: R2a3a2b. The other males from Saidu Sharif were L1a, Q1b2, R1a1a1b, and an A apparently.

From Central Asia:

1, 2. I7419 and I7492- Sappali_Tepe_BA (BMAC), Uzbekistan, 1881-1701 calBCE: R2a. The other males from Sappali Tepe were G2a2a, J2a, J2a1, L1a, Q1b2.
3. I6675- Sumbar_LBA, Turkmenistan, 1600-1000 BCE: R2a. This guy was the only person from Sumbar.
4. I4087- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a. An ancient man.
5. I4085- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a3a. These two were the only guys from the Tepe Anau site.

Now, I don't know if the following are new samples (the spreadsheet says "This study" under "Study in which DNA was published" column) in the Narasimhan et al. paper but there were also samples I1947, I1954, I1946 and I1952 from Ganj Dareh in Iran dated to 8210-7845 calBCE, 8330-8255 calBCE, 8250-7850 BCE and 8219-7761 calBCE respectively. I1946 was apparently the father of I1947 and I1952. There was also one I1945 from Ganj Dareh (samples first published in Lazaridis et al. 2016 apparently) who was R2a (8000-7700 BCE), and an R1 guy was also apparently found there (8241-7962 calBCE).

bmoney
06-25-2018, 04:35 AM
Haplogroup R2 (one of the most common haplogroups in India) is in the same family as R1a. But it diverged from R1a a long time ago. It's very rare outside South Asia and it peaks in Sinhalese Sri Lankans and South Indians. Did this haplogroup come due to West Eurasian migrants or was it indigenous to India (Ancestral South Indians)?

Neolithic Iran probably via ANE component in Iran_N

bmoney
06-25-2018, 04:42 AM
Y-DNA haplogroup R2 has been found most so far in aDNA from the neolithic sites from Iran where they collected aDNA- Ganj Dareh for example. I think it should have its ultimate origins somewhere in Central Asia (ANE or ANE-like population) of course, but it seems that it got into Iran and perhaps also India quite early and not solely with the Indo-Aryan migrations. Such scheduled tribe groups as Irula in the deep south, Karmali of West Bengal (apparently at 100% frequency) have significant amounts of it, along with middle and upper caste groups located in more eastern parts of India, like Kapus, Kammas, Janpur Kshatriyas, Sinhalese people as you noted who might themselves have some significant numbers of descendants of migrants from more eastern parts of India (there is also a possibility Sinhala language may originate from more eastern Prakrits rather than western Prakrits), etc. While it appears R2 might have been present in Iran at least since some point in the mesolithic, in the case of India it is not very clear- if, as some say, there were linkages between ancient Central Asian hunter gatherers and ancient South Asian hunter gatherers, then R2 is a good candidate (perhaps along with some other haplogroups like some types of subclades of C) for being a part of this interaction in my opinion. But significant levels of R2 may also have come during later northwestern neolithic, mediated by pastoralist and farmer males from Iran, to first the northwest and then to inner India, where for some reason, it ended up getting heavily concentrated on the eastern side (or it appears to me so). Some R2 may have come with the Indo-Aryan migrations also, if the Indo-Aryans picked up some BMAC Iran_N-like descendants on their way. What I wrote above is rather standard fare. You should also find all kinds of discussions about R2 done already, perhaps to almost the full extent possible, in the R2 forum on this site.

I have gone through the Y-DNA haplogroup information from the recent Narasimhan et al. Central Asia aDNA pre-print and these were the R2 individuals from that paper:

From South Asia:

1. I8245- Aligrama_IA, Swat valley, 970-550 BCE: R2a3a2b2b1. The two other males from Aligrama belonged to G2a2a and L1a.
2. I5399- Katelai_IA, Swat valley, 1000-800 BCE: R2a3a. The one other male from Katelai belonged to J2a1.
3. S8997.E1.L1- Loebanr_IA, Swat valley, 900-800 BCE: R2a. The other males from Loebanr were L1a (4 in number), C1b1a1a1, Q1b2 and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.
4. S7722.E1.L1- Saidu_Sharif_IA_o, Swat valley, 500-300 BCE: R2a3a2b. The other males from Saidu Sharif were L1a, Q1b2, R1a1a1b, and an A apparently.

From Central Asia:

1, 2. I7419 and I7492- Sappali_Tepe_BA (BMAC), Uzbekistan, 1881-1701 calBCE: R2a. The other males from Sappali Tepe were G2a2a, J2a, J2a1, L1a, Q1b2.
3. I6675- Sumbar_LBA, Turkmenistan, 1600-1000 BCE: R2a. This guy was the only person from Sumbar.
4. I4087- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a. An ancient man.
5. I4085- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a3a. These two were the only guys from the Tepe Anau site.

Now, I don't know if the following are new samples (the spreadsheet says "This study" under "Study in which DNA was published" column) in the Narasimhan et al. paper but there were also samples I1947, I1954, I1946 and I1952 from Ganj Dareh in Iran dated to 8210-7845 calBCE, 8330-8255 calBCE, 8250-7850 BCE and 8219-7761 calBCE respectively. I1946 was apparently the father of I1947 and I1952. There was also one I1945 from Ganj Dareh (samples first published in Lazaridis et al. 2016 apparently) who was R2a (8000-7700 BCE), and an R1 guy was also apparently found there (8241-7962 calBCE).

Yes I agree, R2 follows an interesting distribution with a high prevalence in Bengal and South India.

It perhaps was subdued elsewhere by later waves of South Caucasus package J2/L/G2a and then Central Asian Steppe R1a/Q

It most certainly has nothing to do with AASI hunter-gatherers (<1% in the Hill tribe foragers where AASI peaks)

anthroin
06-25-2018, 01:27 PM
Yes I agree, R2 follows an interesting distribution with a high prevalence in Bengal and South India.

It perhaps was subdued elsewhere by later waves of South Caucasus package J2/L/G2a and then Central Asian Steppe R1a/Q

It most certainly has nothing to do with AASI hunter-gatherers (<1% in the Hill tribe foragers where AASI peaks)

It seems to be quite a peculiar distribution, I agree, with L on the western side after northwest (J2 also similar?), R2 on the eastern side (but also apparently has a two-pronged northwest-southeast(&northeast?) split in terms of the Indian subclades of R2; I have to check the forums again thoroughly), with what in the middle? H and R1a?

But that said, what evidence is there currently to suggest that R2 may have been pushed over to that side by the later Js, Ls, etc.? These all folks are found together in Swat valley and neolithic Central Asia, right? Also, if I remember correctly, G2s and J2s were also found in remote neolithic Iran along with R2. Also, early neolithic Central Asia and India even now are said to be bastions of neolithic Iran-like ancestry. If migrations of Ls, Js, G2s, etc. happened to India considerably later from Iran during which time Iran itself was getting very Levant-neolithic influenced genetically, don't we expect more Levant and Anatolia-like ancestry in India?

redifflal
06-25-2018, 02:30 PM
This West/South division of Eurasian branch of humanity needs to retire itself when talking of Indian subcontinent population history. The model is relevant as far as explaining European population structure due to the ANE component that came in from bronze age steppe and later arrivals, but in Indian subcontinent such a nodal divide into the Paleolithic timeframe is most likely not there.
As far as R goes, it looks to me like some counter clockwise movement across Eurasia. You have the F* in Indian subcontinent tribals, you have P* in Philippine pygmies. You get Q going into Siberian and native Americans while R starts heading northwest. Either way as far as dividing autosomal components (for understanding European structure goes) into a West Eurasian node and a South+East node goes, anything R is coming firmly from the South and then East camp, West is grabbing all the undifferentiated GHIJK. If R becomes de facto West by the time it circles back around central Asia/Sintashta back into Indian subcontinent through the northwest in form of R1a, then it is indeed bringing West Eurasian autosomal component but R in its origins is still from the eastern node as far as the division of autosomal components go.
Either way like I said this nodal difference does not hold for India as far as I'm concerned. Autosomal distinction happens over geographical isolation. If one group of OOA pygmies heads north from Balochistan region and another remains on coastal route until a further subset of coastal route heads north along the Pacific coast of China, the nodal difference will be relevant as far as the two groups that headed north goes. The basal group that is geographically contiguous along the southern tropics does not differentiate. Yes over time recombination of various types with returning varieties from the northern out migrants will change the autosomal makeup of the southern groups in different ways, but for the most part the southern group always mixes with their immediate northern migrant outgroup. Also due to huge distances and sparse populability across entire Eurasian steppe, the genetic changes across the north on an east west axis will be much more swift and vast in scope than anything that percolates back down south.

bmoney
06-25-2018, 02:57 PM
It seems to be quite a peculiar distribution, I agree, with L on the western side after northwest (J2 also similar?), R2 on the eastern side (but also apparently has a two-pronged northwest-southeast(&northeast?) split in terms of the Indian subclades of R2; I have to check the forums again thoroughly), with what in the middle? H and R1a?

But that said, what evidence is there currently to suggest that R2 may have been pushed over to that side by the later Js, Ls, etc.? These all folks are found together in Swat valley and neolithic Central Asia, right? Also, if I remember correctly, G2s and J2s were also found in remote neolithic Iran along with R2. Also, early neolithic Central Asia and India even now are said to be bastions of neolithic Iran-like ancestry. If migrations of Ls, Js, G2s, etc. happened to India considerably later from Iran during which time Iran itself was getting very Levant-neolithic influenced genetically, don't we expect more Levant and Anatolia-like ancestry in India?

No evidence.

J2/L1/G2/R2a all migrated before significant Levant ancestry arrived in Iran IMO.

Central India has a mix of haplogroups, but generally tribal hunter-gatherers living in heavily forested regions of the interior would carry higher levels of O, H1a, F and South Asian C

However J2 and L1 are almost negligible in Eastern India whereas R2 is found at high levels, suggesting different migrations dates to me.

J2a Iran + Caucasus - The oldest known J2a samples at present were identified in remains from the Hotu Cave in northern Iran, dating from 9100-8600 BCE (Lazaridis et al. 2016), and from Kotias Klde in Georgia, dating from 7940-7600 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)).
Oldest L1a Areni-1 - I1632 Armenia Copper Age L1a1-M27*
Oldest R2a - Ganj Dareh - I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls
Oldest G2a - I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) - I'm not sure if this is the oldest sample found so far

redifflal
06-25-2018, 02:59 PM
Also as far as above conjecture, it is only conjecture in theory. There is aDNA backing up the west/south model as far as Europe's population history and structure goes with tons of spatial and temporal resolution. Everything else about rest of Eurasia is fuzzy territory and being drawn out by extensions of what has worked for Europeans. But it is just common sense that it won't.

As far as R2 goes, I think they percolated back into the subcontinent before they picked up any proper neo West Eurasian autosomal components. Even R1a might have only picked up some semi West/south intermediate components.

bmoney
06-25-2018, 03:07 PM
Also as far as above conjecture, it is only conjecture in theory. There is aDNA backing up the west/south model as far as Europe's population history and structure goes with tons of spatial and temporal resolution. Everything else about rest of Eurasia is fuzzy territory and being drawn out by extensions of what has worked for Europeans. But it is just common sense that it won't.

As far as R2 goes, I think they percolated back into the subcontinent before they picked up any proper neo West Eurasian autosomal components. Even R1a might have only picked up some semi West/south intermediate components.

R2 Neolithic Iranians would be significantly diverged from E Eurasian AASI + Onge + SE Asian + NE Asian as Iran_N contains basal Eurasian

noman
06-25-2018, 03:08 PM
I usually look over these sites to see how diverse this haplogroup is.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2/default.aspx?section=yresults

redifflal
06-25-2018, 03:24 PM
R2 Neolithic Iranians would be significantly diverged from E Eurasian AASI + Onge + SE Asian + NE Asian as Iran_N contains basal Eurasian

Is that R2 in Iran Neolithic ancestral or at least an older derivation than the Indian clades? I though the defining mutation for R2 is 20k ybp whereas Iran_n finds are 9k ybp.
If yes then indeed R2 in India brings West plus basal Eurasian in (although again, do these not already exist in India or are they differentiated from the southern or eaten in India ever?).

thejkhan
06-25-2018, 06:46 PM
As far as R goes, it looks to me like some counter clockwise movement across Eurasia. You have the F* in Indian subcontinent tribals, you have P* in Philippine pygmies.

Now I'm going on a tangent, but there's no paragroup F* or paragroup P* in present time. All the F* in those tribals (and non-tribals) in South Asia were found to be H3. And the P* in Philippine pygmies is just unclassified subclade(s) of P*. Anyways off-topic.

redifflal
06-25-2018, 08:13 PM
Now I'm going on a tangent, but there's no paragroup F* or paragroup P* in present time. All the F* in those tribals (and non-tribals) in South Asia were found to be H3. And the P* in Philippine pygmies is just unclassified subclade(s) of P*. Anyways off-topic.

It would be P*(xQR) for the unclassified P in Philippines. As far as unclassified F*, I believe you're correct.

Tomasso29
06-26-2018, 02:08 AM
Is that R2 in Iran Neolithic ancestral or at least an older derivation than the Indian clades? I though the defining mutation for R2 is 20k ybp whereas Iran_n finds are 9k ybp.
If yes then indeed R2 in India brings West plus basal Eurasian in (although again, do these not already exist in India or are they differentiated from the southern or eaten in India ever?).

Most R2 in India (Including the recent ancient dna samples from Pakistan) have been of the R2a-L295+ type. Apparently there's R2-M479 (xM124) in India as well, but this also exists in parts outside of India quite frequently. Not to mention that there has been a recent discovery that most of these samples may be R2b-FGC21706, so a sister clade to R2a-M124.

Either way, I think R2 in general likely originated in the junction of South, Central, and West Asia, this seems to be the hot spot today, and in the ancient times as well.

bmoney
06-26-2018, 02:24 AM
This West/South division of Eurasian branch of humanity needs to retire itself when talking of Indian subcontinent population history. The model is relevant as far as explaining European population structure due to the ANE component that came in from bronze age steppe and later arrivals, but in Indian subcontinent such a nodal divide into the Paleolithic timeframe is most likely not there.
As far as R goes, it looks to me like some counter clockwise movement across Eurasia. You have the F* in Indian subcontinent tribals, you have P* in Philippine pygmies. You get Q going into Siberian and native Americans while R starts heading northwest. Either way as far as dividing autosomal components (for understanding European structure goes) into a West Eurasian node and a South+East node goes, anything R is coming firmly from the South and then East camp, West is grabbing all the undifferentiated GHIJK. If R becomes de facto West by the time it circles back around central Asia/Sintashta back into Indian subcontinent through the northwest in form of R1a, then it is indeed bringing West Eurasian autosomal component but R in its origins is still from the eastern node as far as the division of autosomal components go.
Either way like I said this nodal difference does not hold for India as far as I'm concerned. Autosomal distinction happens over geographical isolation. If one group of OOA pygmies heads north from Balochistan region and another remains on coastal route until a further subset of coastal route heads north along the Pacific coast of China, the nodal difference will be relevant as far as the two groups that headed north goes. The basal group that is geographically contiguous along the southern tropics does not differentiate. Yes over time recombination of various types with returning varieties from the northern out migrants will change the autosomal makeup of the southern groups in different ways, but for the most part the southern group always mixes with their immediate northern migrant outgroup. Also due to huge distances and sparse populability across entire Eurasian steppe, the genetic changes across the north on an east west axis will be much more swift and vast in scope than anything that percolates back down south.

I know what you're trying to say, however the easiest method is to use the most isolated AASI enriched tribals such as the Paniya and extrapolate AASI haplogroups from them.

For steppe, we have enough samples to know which haplogroups were associated with them.

The rest is allocated to Iran_N (the last of the 3 main ancestral groups for the bulk of South Asians), but according to Pegasus the area from Mehrgarh to the Iranian plateau was once a large continuous grassland, so it is quite likely different haplogroups (some from SW Iran and some from North Iran and the Southern Caucasus) came in multiple waves over a long period of time though first entered South Asia via the NW. The flow also seems one way as F* and H1a are negligible in modern Iran and are not found in any ancient samples from there AFAIK

This method is not perfect due to founder effects and drift, but its hard to argue that R2 originated in India when it is found in less than 1% of these 'original adivasi' peoples

F*, H and K-M9 make up the majority of the southern Adivasi y-haplogroups

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050269

redifflal
06-26-2018, 02:24 AM
Most R2 in India (Including the recent ancient dna samples from Pakistan) have been of the R2a-L295+ type. Apparently there's R2-M479 (xM124) in India as well, but this also exists in parts outside of India quite frequently. Not to mention that there has been a recent discovery that most of these samples may be R2b-FGC21706, so a sister clade to R2a-M124.

Either way, I think R2 in general likely originated in the junction of South, Central, and West Asia, this seems to be the hot spot today, and in the ancient times as well.

Yep I'm L295-, but still positive on M124 so in the R2a family, just not R2a1.

redifflal
06-26-2018, 03:00 AM
I know what you're trying to say, however the easiest method is to use the most isolated AASI enriched tribals such as the Paniya and extrapolate AASI haplogroups from them.

For steppe, we have enough samples to know which haplogroups were associated with them.

The rest is allocated to Iran_N, but according to Pegasus the area from Mehrgarh to the Iranian plateau was once a large continuous grassland, so it is quite likely different haplogroups (some from SW Iran and some from North Iran and Southern Caucasus) came in multiple waves over a long period of time though first entered South Asia via the NW. The flow also seems one way as F* and H1a are negligible in modern Iran and are not found in any ancient samples from there AFAIK

This method is not perfect due to founder effects and drift, but its hard to argue that R2 originated in India when it is found in less than 1% of these 'original adivasi' peoples

F*, H and K-M9 make up the majority of the southern Adivasi y-haplogroups

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050269

There is a big issue with using the extant Adivasi communities as representative of what was or existed back when maybe 90% of Indians were Adivasis as opposed to <10% today. Similar flaw can be used in following example...it is well known that entire village-fuls of particular subcaste would convert to Islam, not one or two stray individuals because latter would be harder to maintain into a surviving population due to social boycott etc. So imagine a haplogroup or sub-haplogroup then might become entirely absent from the remnant Hindus and now is found only among the Muslims. What if an argument starts being made that said haplogroup must be arrived from Middle East or Central Asia due to absence in the Hindus?

This is my line of argument: If unclassified F* or P* exists in existing Adivasis, then it is guaranteed these haplogroups are Indian into paleolithic timeframe. OTOH if a haplogroup like say R2a or L1a exists in <1% Adivasis but is 20% in some other community, there is a pretty large chance that it still came from an en masse Aryanization (or Islamization) of a previously Adivasi subset. Lack of existence among current Adivasis is not proof of lack of ever existing, whereas existence is definitive proof of always existing. Maybe I'm setting this up as a heads I win tails you lose...

aaronbee2010
06-26-2018, 03:19 AM
Most R2 in India (Including the recent ancient dna samples from Pakistan) have been of the R2a-L295+ type. Apparently there's R2-M479 (xM124) in India as well, but this also exists in parts outside of India quite frequently. Not to mention that there has been a recent discovery that most of these samples may be R2b-FGC21706, so a sister clade to R2a-M124.

Either way, I think R2 in general likely originated in the junction of South, Central, and West Asia, this seems to be the hot spot today, and in the ancient times as well.

Looking at the "R2a-M124 updates" post within the R2-M479 category on this forum, the picture from the first post shows a prominent split in Indian R2a men who are either negative or positive for the L295 SNP. In India, R2a men who are L295+ seem to be far more widespread throughout the Indian subcontinent than those who are L295-, who are pretty much restricted to NW India. Along with the aDNA samples from Pakistan being L295+ while the R2a there now is mainly L295-, would this suggest that R2a (L295+) would be the original R2a present in pre-Harappan times whereas the R2a (L295-) would've been carried by Indo-Aryans alongside R1a? I am a complete novice so please pardon my ignorance :P


Yep I'm L295-, but still positive on M124 so in the R2a family, just not R2a1.

There have been a lot of newly discovered SNP's in the ISOGG tree under R2a in the last few years. A few years ago the L295 SNP would've come under R2a1 whereas now that SNP comes under R2a2b1b2b :)

bmoney
06-26-2018, 07:07 AM
Looking at the "R2a-M124 updates" post within the R2-M479 category on this forum, the picture from the first post shows a prominent split in Indian R2a men who are either negative or positive for the L295 SNP. In India, R2a men who are L295+ seem to be far more widespread throughout the Indian subcontinent than those who are L295-, who are pretty much restricted to NW India. Along with the aDNA samples from Pakistan being L295+ while the R2a there now is mainly L295-, would this suggest that R2a (L295+) would be the original R2a present in pre-Harappan times whereas the R2a (L295-) would've been carried by Indo-Aryans alongside R1a? I am a complete novice so please pardon my ignorance :P



There have been a lot of newly discovered SNP's in the ISOGG tree under R2a in the last few years. A few years ago the L295 SNP would've come under R2a1 whereas now that SNP comes under R2a2b1b2b :)

If the R2a L295- has a purely NW distribution its probably even later than Indo-Aryan migration for example similar to L1a2 which also has a largely NW distribution.

I say that because Indo-Aryan y-haplogroups like R1a are ubiquitous all over South Asia, NW South Asia is not necessarily its peak in distribution

bmoney
06-26-2018, 11:10 AM
No evidence.

J2/L1/G2/R2a all migrated before significant Levant ancestry arrived in Iran IMO.

Central India has a mix of haplogroups, but generally tribal hunter-gatherers living in heavily forested regions of the interior would carry higher levels of O, H1a, F and South Asian C

However J2 and L1 are almost negligible in Eastern India whereas R2 is found at high levels, suggesting different migrations dates to me.

J2a Iran + Caucasus - The oldest known J2a samples at present were identified in remains from the Hotu Cave in northern Iran, dating from 9100-8600 BCE (Lazaridis et al. 2016), and from Kotias Klde in Georgia, dating from 7940-7600 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)).
Oldest L1a Areni-1 - I1632 Armenia Copper Age L1a1-M27*
Oldest R2a - Ganj Dareh - I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls
Oldest G2a - I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) - I'm not sure if this is the oldest sample found so far

HarappaDNA results of some of these samples.

Notice that Baloch + Caucasian is the common trend among these samples. The Iranian samples also show 'S Indian' showing the S Indian component on Harappa captures some Iran_N, or less likely, these ancient samples had AASI ancestry.

Among modern populations, the Iranian samples show the most continuity with the Baloch/Brahui/Makrani peoples, which is the 1st or 2nd largest component among modern South Asians depending on region. The Armenian sample differs due to preferring 'Caucasian' more than 'Baloch', and is modelled as half Georgian. It is modelled as half NW Iranian (Kurd) and 1/4 Caucasian (Georgian), with the rest being South European 'Med' type ancestry in its 4 way oracle.

Oldest J2a - M825671 I1293 Iran Mesolithic [9100-8600 BC] HV2 J2a-M410>CTS1085



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 55.51
2 Caucasian 20.44
3 SW-Asian 11.87
4 S-Indian 6.74
5 NE-Euro 3.08
6 W-African 2.05


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 makrani_hgdp @ 7.586064
2 balochi_hgdp @ 10.431101
3 brahui_hgdp @ 10.788074
4 kalash_hgdp @ 24.123739
5 pathan_hgdp @ 25.705009
6 bhatia_harappa @ 25.761095
7 pashtun_harappa @ 27.143003
8 sindhi_harappa @ 27.767408
9 sindhi_hgdp @ 28.103373
10 burusho_hgdp @ 28.609911
11 tajik_yunusbayev @ 30.317488
12 punjabi-arain_xing @ 30.764109
13 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 31.242146
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 31.606155
15 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 32.750099
16 kashmiri_harappa @ 32.850044
17 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 34.141022
18 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 34.197685
19 iranian_behar @ 34.263100
20 punjabi_harappa @ 34.354637

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% makrani_hgdp +50% makrani_hgdp @ 7.586064


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% brahui_hgdp +25% brahui_hgdp +25% kurd_xing @ 6.679604


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++
1 brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + kurd_xing @ 6.679604

Oldest L1a - M417230 I1407 Armenia Chalcolithic [4350-3700 BC] H L1a-M27


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 45.98
2 Baloch 20.86
3 Mediterranean 14.16
4 NE-Euro 9.78
5 SW-Asian 8.65


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 turk-istanbul_hodoglugil @ 7.857787
2 turk-kayseri_hodoglugil @ 7.910618
3 turk_behar @ 8.180408
4 turkish_harappa @ 8.389827
5 azeri_harappa @ 9.539835
6 armenian_harappa @ 10.293874
7 kurd_yunusbayev @ 11.903107
8 kurd_harappa @ 12.876994
9 uzbekistan-jew_behar @ 13.193371
10 north-ossetian_harappa @ 13.885733
11 kurd_xing @ 13.898415
12 iranian_harappa @ 13.908567
13 armenian_behar @ 14.162494
14 turk-aydin_hodoglugil @ 14.789682
15 armenian_yunusbayev @ 14.873545
16 kumyk_yunusbayev @ 14.985253
17 assyrian_harappa @ 15.166075
18 azerbaijan-jew_behar @ 15.760208
19 iranian_behar @ 16.373919
20 georgia-jew_behar @ 16.541267

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% cypriot_behar +50% lezgin_behar @ 6.386781


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% georgian_harappa +25% kurd_xing +25% spaniard_1000genomes @ 3.822522


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 georgian_behar + italian_hgdp + kurd_xing + kurd_xing @ 3.039519

Oldest G2b2 - • WC1 from Wezmeh Cave Iran WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Iran 7455-7082 calBCE (9465-9092 BP) Y-DNA G2b2a-Z8022 mtDNA J1d6



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 54.31
2 Caucasian 27.23
3 SW-Asian 7.17
4 S-Indian 6.88
5 W-African 2.82
6 Pygmy 1.05


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 makrani_hgdp @ 13.651622
2 balochi_hgdp @ 15.771654
3 brahui_hgdp @ 17.164858
4 kalash_hgdp @ 24.422010
5 pathan_hgdp @ 27.064075
6 pashtun_harappa @ 27.527281
7 bhatia_harappa @ 28.002531
8 sindhi_harappa @ 29.349966
9 burusho_hgdp @ 30.274969
10 sindhi_hgdp @ 30.379475
11 tajik_yunusbayev @ 30.495108
12 iranian_behar @ 31.228497
13 iranian_harappa @ 31.891190
14 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 32.394630
15 punjabi-arain_xing @ 32.701027
16 turkmen_yunusbayev @ 32.772186
17 kurd_xing @ 33.501423
18 kashmiri_harappa @ 33.593575
19 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 33.809807
20 kurd_harappa @ 33.821217

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% makrani_hgdp +50% makrani_hgdp @ 13.651622


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% brahui_hgdp +25% brahui_hgdp +25% georgian_behar @ 8.317672


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 abhkasian_yunusbayev + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp @ 8.296929

Ganj Dareh female sample - closest we have on gedmatch to represent old R2a - M249214 GD13A-I1290 Early Neolithic Ganj Dareh Iran 8179-7613 calBCE




Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 56.96
2 Caucasian 24.44
3 S-Indian 6.59
4 W-African 5.44
5 SW-Asian 4.26
6 Papuan 1.02


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 makrani_hgdp @ 12.968754
2 balochi_hgdp @ 14.985866
3 brahui_hgdp @ 15.694973
4 kalash_hgdp @ 24.806332
5 pathan_hgdp @ 27.543703
6 bhatia_harappa @ 27.737085
7 pashtun_harappa @ 29.204081
8 sindhi_harappa @ 29.871681
9 sindhi_hgdp @ 29.885387
10 burusho_hgdp @ 30.206978
11 tajik_yunusbayev @ 32.113499
12 punjabi-arain_xing @ 32.419960
13 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 32.985977
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 33.871624
15 kashmiri_harappa @ 34.215839
16 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 34.501972
17 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 35.466156
18 iranian_behar @ 35.568474
19 turkmen_yunusbayev @ 35.777279
20 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 35.882626

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% makrani_hgdp +50% makrani_hgdp @ 12.968754


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% brahui_hgdp +25% brahui_hgdp +25% georgian_harappa @ 11.798820


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + georgian_harappa @ 11.798820

Oldest R1a-z94 (the vast majority of South Asian R1a is under this subclade) - M630274 I0432 Poltavka outlier [2925-2536 BC] U5a1c R1a-M417>Z94



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 63.14
2 Mediterranean 22.15
3 Baloch 14.70


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 lithuanian_behar @ 14.272401
2 orcadian_hgdp @ 14.923343
3 belorussian_behar @ 15.002377
4 utahn-white_hapmap @ 15.411245
5 n-european_xing @ 15.851139
6 russian_hgdp @ 16.240925
7 mordovian_yunusbayev @ 16.480658
8 ukranian_yunusbayev @ 16.483353
9 british_1000genomes @ 17.443090
10 utahn-white_1000genomes @ 17.640997
11 russian_behar @ 19.023245
12 slovenian_xing @ 21.127789
13 hungarian_behar @ 22.077501
14 french_hgdp @ 27.798826
15 chuvash_behar @ 28.468716
16 finnish_1000genomes @ 28.960686
17 serbian_harappa @ 32.401299
18 romanian-a_behar @ 38.579739
19 spaniard_behar @ 40.877827
20 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 40.977760

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% lithuanian_behar +50% orcadian_hgdp @ 6.368011


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% lithuanian_behar +25% orcadian_hgdp +25% orcadian_hgdp @ 6.368011


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar + orcadian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp @ 6.368011

anthroin
06-26-2018, 03:11 PM
No evidence.

J2/L1/G2/R2a all migrated before significant Levant ancestry arrived in Iran IMO.

Central India has a mix of haplogroups, but generally tribal hunter-gatherers living in heavily forested regions of the interior would carry higher levels of O, H1a, F and South Asian C

However J2 and L1 are almost negligible in Eastern India whereas R2 is found at high levels, suggesting different migrations dates to me.

J2a Iran + Caucasus - The oldest known J2a samples at present were identified in remains from the Hotu Cave in northern Iran, dating from 9100-8600 BCE (Lazaridis et al. 2016), and from Kotias Klde in Georgia, dating from 7940-7600 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)).
Oldest L1a Areni-1 - I1632 Armenia Copper Age L1a1-M27*
Oldest R2a - Ganj Dareh - I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls
Oldest G2a - I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) - I'm not sure if this is the oldest sample found so far

I was just joking there about the geographical distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups- also by "middle", I meant the entirety of India except the east and west, not just central India. Anyway, it's just a joke lol.

anthroin
06-26-2018, 03:17 PM
Most R2 in India (Including the recent ancient dna samples from Pakistan) have been of the R2a-L295+ type. Apparently there's R2-M479 (xM124) in India as well, but this also exists in parts outside of India quite frequently. Not to mention that there has been a recent discovery that most of these samples may be R2b-FGC21706, so a sister clade to R2a-M124.

Either way, I think R2 in general likely originated in the junction of South, Central, and West Asia, this seems to be the hot spot today, and in the ancient times as well.

Hello Tomasso29, thank you very much for this! Could you also tell what subclades the R2 ancient samples from Central Asia belonged to? They had the L295 mutation like the ancient Pakistan samples as well? Thank you very much again!

Tomasso29
07-02-2018, 03:48 PM
Hello Tomasso29, thank you very much for this! Could you also tell what subclades the R2 ancient samples from Central Asia belonged to? They had the L295 mutation like the ancient Pakistan samples as well? Thank you very much again!

Here are the ancient samples from the latest study on this:



#
Country
Location
Haplogroup
Timeline


1
Iran
Ganj Dareh
R2a
8210-7845 BCE


2
Iran
Ganj Dareh
R2a
8330-8255 BCE


3
Iran
Ganj Dareh
R2a
8250-7850 BCE


4
Iran
Ganj Dareh
R2a
8219-7761 BCE


5
Iran
Ganj Dareh
R2a
8000-7700 BCE


6
Pakistan
Katelai
R2a3a
1000-800 BCE


7
Pakistan
Aligrama
R2a3a2b2b1
970-550 BCE


8
Pakistan
Loebanr
R2a
900-800 BCE


9
Pakistan
Swat Valley
R2a3a2b
500-300 BCE


10
Turkmenistan
Sumbar
R2a
1600-1000 BCE

11
Turkmenistan
Tepe Anau
R2a3a
4000-3000 BCE


12
Turkmenistan
Tepe Anau
R2a
4000-3000 BCE


13
Uzbekistan
Sappali Tepe
R2a
1881-1701 BCE


14
Uzbekistan
Sappali Tepe
R2a
1971-1782 BC



I should make a little correction to what I previously said, only one ancient sample from Pakistan is L295+ (The Aligrama sample on row 7). The other potential sample is on row 9 (Swat sample), though that's actually one subclade above L295. All the other younger samples likely had no calls on them, which means I'm not sure whether the Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan had L295 or not, but from the test provided, they are not labeled as such.

halfalp
08-08-2018, 04:24 PM
I dont think at all that R2 is linked with IE migrations from the Steppe or we would have found him in the many samples we have. But the fact that it is found in Iran_Neolithic, the fact that Iran_Neolithic is ( or was? ) modeled as something CHG, something ANE and the fact that R is an obvious ANE lineage, makes me think that R2 tribes where a huge component to create the Iran_Neolithic genetic marker. It maybe went down south in Epipaleolithic from Central Asia / Afghanistan with other lineages like the Q we can found in some population of the middle-east as far as Arabia / Israel.

Rethel
11-04-2018, 09:58 AM
3. Swat valley, 900-800 BCE: R2a. (...) and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.
4. Swat valley, 500-300 BCE: R2a3a2b. (...) R1a1a1b,

3. I6675- Sumbar_LBA, Turkmenistan, 1600-1000 BCE: R2a. (...) only person from Sumbar.
4. I4087- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a. An ancient man.
5. I4085- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a3a. (...) the only guys from the Tepe Anau site.

There was also one I1945 from Ganj Dareh (samples first published in Lazaridis et al. 2016 apparently) who
was R2a (...), and an R1 guy was also apparently found there (8241-7962 calBCE).

It indirectly supports IEness of R2.

Rethel
11-04-2018, 10:13 AM
I dont think at all that R2 is linked with IE migrations from the Steppe

It does not have to be from the steppe. It could be earlier from some outskirts - eastern or southern - of IE settlement.


or we would have found him in the many samples we have.

If then, it was a very small population - you wouldn't.
R2 is widely spreaded from Lisabon through Poland to India.
R2 was fourn at least in one medieval noble family, so there is no
chance that it was brought by Gypsies. It had to be here much earlier.

Btw, the same as you, people were saying about R1b, and later about V88. I was saying opposite.
Now you have plaenty of R1b from east Europe and almost none from western, and the same with
v88 - you have plenty of v88 samples from ancient eastern Europe especially from the steppe.

I am not saying yet, that on 100% R2 is IE, but on 90% it is now very probable.


But the fact that it is found in Iran_Neolithic, the fact that Iran_Neolithic is ( or was? ) modeled as something CHG, something ANE and the fact that R is an obvious ANE lineage, makes me think that R2 tribes where a huge component to create the Iran_Neolithic genetic marker.

So here you have it.
You obviously want to make me to claim 100%ness :)

Tomasso29
11-29-2018, 05:07 PM
I have noticed a lot of updates in the R2 WTY (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY?iframe=yresults) project, and while it is modern DNA, I think adding that along with the current ancient DNA results we have so far gives off a strong indication that R2* might have come from Asia (Possibly Central Asia), but R2a seems more like a Western Asian lineage if you check out its current SNP diversity. Here are some highlights:

R2a1-L263: Very rare and only found in West Asia among Armenians, Greeks, and Arabs so far.

R2a2a-FGC13203: This is the main Jewish branch, it's found among both Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews, it's also found among other Western Asian populations such as Arabs, Persians, Armenians, and also some Europeans.

R2a2b1-M9710: This is where most R2 lineages fall under, it contains almost all South Asians, Central Asians, Western Asians, and even some Europeans.

R2a2b2-FGC46676: This is a smaller branch that exists among Western Asian populations such as Persians and Arabs for most part. But there's also a small number of Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans.

R2b-FGC21706: This is the smaller R2 branch, it's rare and seems mostly confined to South, Central, and West Asia.

Under the most common R2a lineage (R2a2b1-M9710), there seems to be a number of clusters. Most of them are West Asian and scattered among multiple different populations such as Arabs, Persians, Armenians, Georgians, Assyrians, etc, with the exception of R2a2b1b-Y8766, this is pretty much where most if not all South Asian R2a lineages fall under. However it's important to mention that this branch in itself is not exclusive to South Asians, there are also others from West Asia, Central Asia, and Europe in there.

How is this all tied to the ancient DNA samples we have? Two of the samples fall under R2a2b1b2-FGC18148, their designation is different though (R2a3a2b and R2a3a2b2b1). This tells me that R2a2b1b2 (The dominant R2a lineage in South Asia) likely migrated there in a significant migration from an area near by that also has this lineage, and it must have happened quite recently (Possibly in the past 3000-5000 years or so). R2b on the other hand may have a different story.

Awan01
11-30-2018, 09:43 PM
And what story do you think will emerge for R2b? Do you think it could be a younger branch? Is it too early to firm up possible origins? Great post by the way. Nice summarisation!.

Tomasso29
12-01-2018, 05:01 PM
And what story do you think will emerge for R2b? Do you think it could be a younger branch? Is it too early to firm up possible origins? Great post by the way. Nice summarisation!.

For starters, I want to clarify that this is my opinion, which can easily change if new evidence is found.

I actually feel for the R2b folks, because there aren't that many and it may take some time before you have a better picture of the clusters within (Though it seems like some clusters have formed already).

This kind of reminds me of where we were like 10 years ago (We were only known as R2 and you guys were known as R). It has taken a good 10 years of studies and contributions from significant people at the WTY project to get to where we are today. So it may take some time for you guys as well. But the good news is we are part of the same project at FTDNA, and the admin over there (Abdul Aziz) is amazing, his contributions are one of the main reasons why we have all these SNP discoveries, and he does an awesome job at keeping the project running, which is not an easy task given that we are not a major lineage like R1a, R1b, or whatever.

Anyways, looking at the ancient dna, it seems like R* might have been a Central Asian lineage, and some possibly made the journey down to South-Cental Asia. This might been the birth of R2-M479, and from there it must have been a back and forth journey (East to West to East to West to etc), so the offspring might have split among multiple populations that dwelled anywhere from Mesopotamia and all the way to the Indus. I'm hoping ancient DNA can tell us which deep clusters within R2 these ancient ppl belonged to (We do have a partial answer on the South Asian R2 so far).

Tomasso29
12-03-2018, 09:24 PM
Looking further on the latest updates, if you check out the R2 Yfull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/), it seems like the South Asian numbers are very significant under the R2a2b1b-Y8766 and R2b-FGC50368 branches, but you notice a smaller number of South Asians outside these as well. For example two Indian samples are under the R2a2a-FGC13203 lineage, this is the main Jewish branch. All of this seems very murky and complex, but this diversity between the East (South/Central Asia) and West (West Asia) probably indicates thousands of years of migrations across multiple cultures and timelines, so it's highly unlikely that it was connected to a single group or migration.

Outside of detailed ancient DNA studies across multiple cultures and timelines, it's going to be very difficult figuring out what's what about R2. But so far, the deep connection to West and South/Central Asia seems there.

aaronbee2010
12-05-2018, 02:34 PM
There's a very interesting post from EUpedia here (Link: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32403-the-origin-of-Iran-neolithic):


The precursor of the Iran neolithic are the Kupruk epi-paleolithic, goat hunters north of the Hindu Kush and dated 16.6 ka.

https://www.academia.edu/5738814/Pal...ic_Afghanistan

They had developped a special technique to make microliths for which there is no precursor nowhere.
These microliths were all over the area north of the Hindu Kush. They did not exist int the Zarzian mesolithic Zagros mountains, nor anywhere else.
These microliths appeared with the neolithic Zagros like in Ganj Dareh.
The Kupruk neolithic is estimated to have started some 10 ka, same time as Ganj Dareh. The Kupruk neolithic was, just like Ganj Dareh based on goat herding and small plots of cereals and barley.

The neolithic in South-Asia started 9.5 ka in Bhirrana and 9 ka in Mehrgarh. It was an expansion of the Iran neolithic.
2 likely founding fathers are R2 subclade R-V3714 and J2a subclade J-Z2432.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V3714/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

The ancestors of the Kupruk epi-paleolithic are not found yet, there is a 15000 year archeological gap north of the Hindu Kush. Maybe the ancestors came from elsewhere, maybe it is because there has not been any intensive searching in the area.

If this EUpedia post is anything to go by, then R2-M479's 16300 ybp TMRCA (YFull) seems to correlate with the 16600 kya date of the Aq Kupruk II (epipaleolithic) archaeological site in North Afghanistan, which appears to be the precursor to the Neolithic Iranian (i.e. Ganj Dareh) farmers (at least the ones who carried R2), where 2 out of 3 men who were found to have lived in the Neolithic Zagros region came under R2 (Link: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/). Considering that the R2 found in ancient and modern West Iran probably came from the epipaleolithic Aq Kupruk community, there's a good chance that R2-M479 originated in or near North Afghanistan.

For R2a-M124, lets look at the two subclades directly below it:

The vast majority of R2a today comes under R2a2-P267, a subclade that appears to have its origins in or around the Zagros, judging by various subclades of R-P267 being found in and around the Zagros today. The 10500 ybp estimate of R-P267 (YFull) seems to correlate with samples found in Neolithic Iran chronologically, so this further suggests the guess that R2a2-P267 originated in or near the Zagros mountains.

Looking at the other subclade, R2a1-L263 seems almost exclusive to West Asia/Southeast Europe. I would guess that the origin of this subclade occured near where we see modern populations. In other words, I'm guessing R2a1-L263 originated somewhere either in the Levant or Western Iran. Unfortunately, YFull doesn't have R-L263 on their tree so I can't find a TMRCA value there. I grabbed the Y-STR's of the L263+ people on FTDNAs R2-M124-WTY project and plugged them into Dean McGees Y-Utility tool, setting the time between generations to 25 years and the mutation rate of each Y-STR to FTDNA's values. The tool said that the MRCA of all these men only lived around 650 years ago. I'm not sure if this man would be the R-L263 MRCA or the MRCA of a subclade under R-L263.

The 11600 ybp estimate (YFull) for R-M124 seems to be very close to the corresponding value for R-P267. Given this point, and that the locations of origin of the two subclades directly below R-M124 were not very far from each other, I would guess that R2a-M124 originated somewhere in Western Iran (possibly the Zagros).

Its unfortunate that there is currently very little information around for R2b-FGC21706. Hopefully this changes as more people under this subclade get sequenced. Props to laltota for taking one for the R2b team! :D

Looking at South Asia, the vast majority of R-M124 there comes under R2a2b1b-Y8766. All but two South Asians on YFull come under here (the other two coming under R2a2a-FGC13203 - the branch of R-M124 most Jews come under, I would therefore guess that these Indian men are Jewish).

The majority of these South Asians belong to R2a2b1b2b-L295, which was likely one of the very first ANE lineages to enter South Asia, alongside J2, L and G. Out of the R-M124 (L295-) lineages in South Asia:

R2a2b1b1-Y5080 is found only in Pakistan and Bangladesh. I can't really say much about this lineage.

R2a2b1b2c-Y26630 seems to have a very similar distribution to R-L295, being clustered strongly around Andhra Pradesh (The YFull ID's starting with "HG" that are supposedly from Arunachal Pradesh are actually from Andhra Pradesh - a mistake on the part of YFull) and Bangladesh. I would assume this lineage entered South Asia alongside R-L295.

R2a2b1b2a-SK2142 (my lineage) has a distribution mainly around NW South Asia, which mirrors the pattern of R1a-Z93 very well. The vast majority of NW South Asian R-M124 (L295-) seems to come under this branch. I would guess that the L295- individuals on the R2-M124-WTY project located in NW South Asia come under this branch. I also have a Gujarati Rajput relative on 23andMe who is L295-. Looking at caste affiliations, most of the NW South Asian L295- individuals I mentioned earlier all come under upper (mostly Hindu) castes (one Brahmin, one Khatri, one Baniya and two Rajputs (one from FTDNA and one from 23andMe), where R1a-Z93 (specifically Indo-Aryan R1a, which I think is R1a-Y6) reaches its highest levels. I would guess that R2a2b1b2a-SK2142 entered South Asia from the BMAC with the Indo-Aryans carrying R1a-Z93 (albeit in lower numbers, considering the degree of mixing between the BMAC populus and the Pre-IA Indo-Iranians was not very high).

bmoney
12-05-2018, 02:42 PM
The only comment Id make is that SK2142 isnt correlated with r1a-z93 which is everywhere at significant levels in South Asia. If both came together youd expect some SK2142 outside the NW, to reflect z93 distribution

aaronbee2010
12-05-2018, 02:52 PM
The only comment Id make is that SK2142 isnt correlated with r1a-z93 which is everywhere at significant levels in South Asia. If both came together youd expect some SK2142 outside the NW, to reflect z93 distribution

I meant correlated in terms of the pattern of distribution, not the numbers. R-Z93 is definitely seen everywhere in South Asia (numbers being m u c h higher than R-SK2142), but the areas with the highest percentage of R-Z93 are in NW South Asia. R-SK2142 could be seen in other parts of South Asia if it wasn't so damn rare. Maybe this will happen as more people are found under this subclade.

I forgot to mention, but there is also a lot of guesswork on my part. This is the conclusion I reached after spending a lot of time researching this rare and information-sparse lineage I happen to come under. It would be a lot easier of I came under something like *literally any other lineage in South Asia* or something :(

bmoney
12-05-2018, 03:00 PM
I meant correlated in terms of the pattern of distribution, not the numbers. R-Z93 is definitely seen everywhere in South Asia (numbers being m u c h higher than R-SK2142), but the areas with the highest percentage of R-Z93 are in NW South Asia. R-SK2142 could be seen in other parts of South Asia if it wasn't so damn rare. Maybe this will happen as more people are found under this subclade.

I forgot to mention, but there is also a lot of guesswork on my part. This is the conclusion I reached after spending a lot of time researching this rare and information-sparse lineage I happen to come under. It would be a lot easier of I came under something like *literally any other lineage in South Asia* or something :(

Some of the highest frequencies of z93 are West Bengal Brahmins and Nepali Brahmins. My 23andme relatives are 50% z93 (top 50) with 1 South Asian R2.

You should check the high Gangetic Brahmin z93 pockets for correlation

Tomasso29
12-05-2018, 07:41 PM
I meant correlated in terms of the pattern of distribution, not the numbers. R-Z93 is definitely seen everywhere in South Asia (numbers being m u c h higher than R-SK2142), but the areas with the highest percentage of R-Z93 are in NW South Asia. R-SK2142 could be seen in other parts of South Asia if it wasn't so damn rare. Maybe this will happen as more people are found under this subclade.

I forgot to mention, but there is also a lot of guesswork on my part. This is the conclusion I reached after spending a lot of time researching this rare and information-sparse lineage I happen to come under. It would be a lot easier of I came under something like *literally any other lineage in South Asia* or something :(

This sort of reminds me of our old map that we did back in the day for L295+/-. In Southern India, L295+ pretty much dominated over 90%, while in the northern parts of India and Pakistan, the numbers for L295+ dropped to like 60%-70%. I'm willing to bet that most of the remaining samples that are L295- fall under one of the other clusters within R-V3714 (R2a2b1b2).

It feels like the L295+ folks might have been the main R2a lineage that migrated to South Asia during the Neolithic from Iran, and it possibly developed on its way there. I wonder how this works among other lineages like L1, J2a, etc. There may be some correlations there too.

aaronbee2010
12-09-2018, 05:28 PM
Some of the highest frequencies of z93 are West Bengal Brahmins and Nepali Brahmins. My 23andme relatives are 50% z93 (top 50) with 1 South Asian R2.

You should check the high Gangetic Brahmin z93 pockets for correlation

R-SK2142 seems to be seen more common in the western half of the Indo-Gangetic plain according to FTDNA and my 23andMe relatives (1 Punjabi (IN) Brahmin, 1 Punjabi (IN) Khatri, 1 NW Indian Rajput Muslim, 1 Gujarati Rajput and 1 Gujarati Bora). Looking at other parts of the Indo-Gangetic plain, there was a Bengali Brahmin on these forums who was L295-, however he could've come under R-Y26630 (a lineage correlated with R-L295 in geographic pattern [clustered around NE and SE India] but much lower in number), and two of the L295- individuals on FTDNA (inferred SK2142+) were North Indian Baniyas (one being specifically from Uttar Pradesh). Why there's a disparity between these parts of the plains, I do not know. The only guess I can think of is some sort of founder effect?

I'm inferring these men who are L295- are specifically SK2142+ by comparing their geographic distribution to that of the SK2142+ men on YFull (2 men from Gujarat and 1 from Pakistani Punjab). It must be mentioned that YFull massively overepresents specific areas of South Asia (Gujarat_IN and Punjab_PK) and has scarce (in many cases zero) representation of other states in India, and says nothing about caste affiliations of the men on the tree. I'm only using YFull to guess whether L295- men in South Asia come under R-SK2142 or not.

Looking at caste affiliations, most of them seem to come under Brahmin or Kshatriya groups, i.e. Indo-Aryan groups. That's another reason why I'm guessing that R-SK2142 could've arrived into South Asia with the Indo-Aryans, as well as what seems to be a strong geographic distribution pattern with R-Z93.

On an unrelated note, the NW Indian Rajput Muslim (Khanzada) is my closest Y-STR match on FTDNA. Y-Utility predicts a 725 year TMRCA and TiP predicts a 425 year TMRCA (he only has 25 Y-STRs though -_-). My Y-DNA assimilation may have took place relatively recently (likely no more than 500 years ago). I wish this dude would order more Y-STRs though, I'm considering messaging him.


The only comment I’d make is that SK2142 isn’t correlated with r1a-z93 which is everywhere at significant levels in South Asia. If both came together you’d expect some SK2142 outside the NW, to reflect z93 distribution

Another point I wanted to make here was even if the distribution pattern was 110% identical to R-Z93 (for arguments sake), if we only see miniscule amounts of men on the internet (i.e. FTDNA, YFull, Anthrogenica etc.) who are confirmed SK2142+ (so small that there are only 5 confirmed SK2142+ South Asians on the internet including myself - at least that I could find) from groups who tend to have high amounts of R-Z93, then it stands to reason that groups with small amounts of R-Z93 would have so little SK2142 that it wouldn't be surprising if no SK2142+ member of that group could be found on the internet, even though it is present in that group.


This sort of reminds me of our old map that we did back in the day for L295+/-. In Southern India, L295+ pretty much dominated over 90%, while in the northern parts of India and Pakistan, the numbers for L295+ dropped to like 60%-70%. I'm willing to bet that most of the remaining samples that are L295- fall under one of the other clusters within R-V3714 (R2a2b1b2).

It feels like the L295+ folks might have been the main R2a lineage that migrated to South Asia during the Neolithic from Iran, and it possibly developed on its way there. I wonder how this works among other lineages like L1, J2a, etc. There may be some correlations there too.

I agree. Out of those samples within R-V3714, R-Y26630 would have a similar geographic distribution to R-L295, so I'm guessing they entered South Asia side-by-side perhaps? R-SK2142 is a mystery to me, which has resulted in me spending goodness-knows-how-many hours trying to get an idea of how it entered South Asia (see what I've said about R-SK2142 in this thread). I'm guessing it entered South Asia via the Indo-Aryans (albeit in much lower numbers compared to R-Z93), judging by geographic pattern of distribution and caste distribution. If you're curious, I'm on the R2-M124-WTY project on FTDNA. My kit number is IN41220.

I definitely agree that L295+ men were the main R-M124 lineage that entered South Asia from Iran during the Neolithic period. Lineages associated specifically with the IVC (J-M172 (Levantine) and L-M27 + G-P15 (Caucasus)) do have a slightly different distribution (clustered in South Pakistan and Kerala) to compared to R-L295 (clustered in Bengal and Andhra Pradesh).

bmoney suggested in an earlier post in this thread that R-L295 may have entered first and settled around NW South Asia, before being displaced by J2+L1a1+G2a, travelling cross the Indo-Gangetic plains.

His quote here:


Yes I agree, R2 follows an interesting distribution with a high prevalence in Bengal and South India.

It perhaps was subdued elsewhere by later waves of South Caucasus package J2/L/G2a and then Central Asian Steppe R1a/Q

It most certainly has nothing to do with AASI hunter-gatherers (<1% in the Hill tribe foragers where AASI peaks)

I agree with bmoney here considering that J2+L1a1+G2a all have almost identical distributions to each other, and these distributions are similar, but distinct from the distribution of R-L295. If this is the case, then R-L295 would've been the very first ANE lineage to enter South Asia in significant numbers. Very interesting!

EDIT: I should mention that the Indo-Aryans would've most likely got R-SK2142 from the BMAC.

Rethel
12-10-2018, 10:02 PM
To those who argued, that R2=BMAC.

Unfortunatly, BMAC seems to be J, J2. http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/35.60/74.88

Look: yellow points in Turkmenia titled Namazga III.

Megalophias
12-10-2018, 10:17 PM
Out of 13 decent coverage BMAC Y samples: 1 E1b1b1, 1 G2a2a, 1 J1, 4 J2a, 2 L1c, 1 R1b1*, 2 R2a, 1 T. (Looking at the Y SNP calls given not the awful haplogroup calls.)

aaronbee2010
12-10-2018, 11:12 PM
To those who argued, that R2=BMAC.

Unfortunatly, BMAC seems to be J, J2. http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/35.60/74.88

Look: yellow points in Turkmenia titled Namazga III.

Thats just 1 specimen. The Narasimhan et al. study found 18 specimens. The most common haplogroup was J2 (4/18), however other haplogroups were present i.e. 2/18 R2. Megalophias beat me to it, his post is above mine.

I'm not saying all R2 is BMAC, only that a rare branch of R2 found in India might have come specifically from the BMAC. Most R2 (R-L295) in India seems to have come straight from the Zagros mountains without any detours.

Tomasso29
12-11-2018, 03:46 AM
To those who argued, that R2=BMAC.

Unfortunatly, BMAC seems to be J, J2. http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/35.60/74.88

Look: yellow points in Turkmenia titled Namazga III.

I'm not making any arguments here, but my question is, why is that map not including all the samples found in the region?

ataneojr1
12-11-2018, 06:00 AM
I am Filipino and show as ydna P-P295 in 23andme, P in Wegene and FTDNA Big Y500 as P-BY49600.
Temporarily I think as K2b in Yfull.
The Aetas of Luzon are P*, P1, P2 and K....if ydna R and Q came from P ....is it possible of back migration towards India and R2 started there?

Rethel
12-11-2018, 10:06 AM
Out of 13 decent coverage BMAC Y samples: 1 E1b1b1, 1 G2a2a, 1 J1, 4 J2a, 2 L1c, 1 R1b1*, 2 R2a, 1 T. (Looking at the Y SNP calls given not the awful haplogroup calls.)

So, if there is everything, then the more, R2 cannot be bind to it.


I'm not saying all R2 is BMAC, only that a rare branch of R2 found in India might have come specifically from the BMAC. Most R2 (R-L295) in India seems to have come straight from the Zagros mountains without any detours.

Ok, but it is just one bus stop under way.

aaronbee2010
12-12-2018, 02:25 PM
I'm not making any arguments here, but my question is, why is that map not including all the samples found in the region?

Seems like cherrypicking to me.

Tomasso29
12-12-2018, 04:17 PM
Seems like cherrypicking to me.

I'm not even sure who made that map, but it sure does seem like cherry picking. If done on purpose, I don't understand what kind of benefit people get from this, we're just reporting ancient DNA here and it would be very nice to have an honest map with everything on it.

Tomasso29
12-12-2018, 04:25 PM
I am Filipino and show as ydna P-P295 in 23andme, P in Wegene and FTDNA Big Y500 as P-BY49600.
Temporarily I think as K2b in Yfull.
The Aetas of Luzon are P*, P1, P2 and K....if ydna R and Q came from P ....is it possible of back migration towards India and R2 started there?

A back migration from Southeast Asia is possible if you take P into consideration, but given the current evidence, I don't think it would have been a direct migration to South Asia. More like toward Siberia, Central Asia, then some R men headed south to South/Central/West Asia to form R2 and the others remaining behind in the steppes to form R1.

parasar
12-12-2018, 05:08 PM
A back migration from Southeast Asia is possible if you take P into consideration, but given the current evidence, I don't think it would have been a direct migration to South Asia. More like toward Siberia, Central Asia, then some R men headed south to South/Central/West Asia to form R2 and the others remaining behind in the steppes to form R1.

I agree with you on Y-P. My feeling is that there was bifurcation with P,N,O going via the SE Asian river valleys up north and some F (moving via South Asia) to the west.

"We observed one lineage, carried by the Vietnamese sample HG02040, that is derived for F-M89 and most other SNPs shared by the rest of megahaplogroup F. However, the individual carried the ancestral allele for four SNPs present in the derived state in all other hgF representatives ... The lineage therefore constitutes an outgroup to the rest of the
clade and is the only one that we classify as belonging to paragroup F*. This first full sequence of an F* lineage enabled us to define new internal structure of the
phylogeny. The 4 SNPs for which the lineage retains the ancestral allele define a new internal branch of the tree, GHIJK, that is immediately upstream of the one-SNP HIJK branch identified by Poznik et al.4"

"Karmin et al.74 recently noted in the high-coverage sequences of Wong et al.76 the presence of an F2 lineage, carried by the Malay sample SSM072, that also lies outside the main GHIJK subgroup of F."
https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ng/journal/v48/n6/extref/ng.3559-S1.pdf

But then we also see the Andaman P-P295 and the Yana P-M45 and the Telugu xNO lines. So it is possible that P was in South Asia too near the M45 or earlier stages.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15693-Pleistocene-Siberian-Genomes-Ancient-North-Siberians-(Sikora-et-al)&p=516095&viewfull=1#post516095

aaronbee2010
12-12-2018, 10:36 PM
I'm not even sure who made that map, but it sure does seem like cherry picking. If done on purpose, I don't understand what kind of benefit people get from this, we're just reporting ancient DNA here and it would be very nice to have an honest map with everything on it.

The whole point of what we're doing is to look at the available evidence and draw a conclusion. Some people have their own predetermined conclusion (for whatever reason) and try to force the evidence to fit their conclusion. This is exactly what creationists do and it is blatantly anti-scientific.

nonplussed
12-24-2019, 08:26 PM
Something that nobody ever brings up: Mal'ta Boy, the oldest known carrier of R, and a basal R* lineage (neither R1 nor R2) has Indian genetic affinity.

https://i.imgur.com/eYe2EdB.png

https://i.imgur.com/x9LnRwu.png

Rethel
12-29-2019, 02:07 PM
Something that nobody ever brings up: Mal'ta Boy, the oldest known carrier of R, and a basal R* lineage (neither R1 nor R2) has Indian genetic affinity.

Better look at his wersten affinity. He was a mixed child. Indian au was a minority part. 50-60% was EHG (on your picture some 34%), 15-20% other caucasoidic and rest AmInd-like (on your pic. 17%). He just had some asiatic Pocahontas as a grandmother. Thats all. I guess, his family or clan was on the mammoth-trek heading from the west through the eurasiatic steppe. Most of his tribe had to stay at home and neighbourhood, probably somewhere between Volga and Ural, plus occasionaly probably did occupy parts of western Siberia, like Aftonova Gora - so the result was: Maltaboy.

nonplussed
12-31-2019, 07:18 PM
He just had some asiatic Pocahontas as a grandmother. Thats all. I guess

This cope, lol. WE WUZ PRQ N' STUFF.

https://i.imgur.com/ihbEHRg.png

The trajectory of haplogroup K, and thus K2, and thus K2b, and thus P and thus R, follows a clear counterclockwise rotation through Eurasia. We have hundreds, if not thousands of samples from paleo Europe, and the very first R (or even general K2b for that matter) is only from 13kya in Villabruna.

We have only a few from the ANE Siberians, and we see it's chock full of PRQ. The Yana ANEs from 33kya also have slightly more Eastern admixture than the Mal'ta ANEs from 24kya.

Only a few from China as well, and we still see that K2b was in Beijing 42,000 years ago, in an autosomally East Eurasian population (Tianyuan Man) with zero ANE mixture.

We also have present populations in the South Pacific (Aetas, Melanesians, various others) who show significant levels of P and other K2b groups, with zero ANE admixture. Incidentally, they show blondism as well, like Afontova Gora, but mediated with different alleles (perhaps light hair arose in SE Asia?)

Even the early K2a (NO*) in Europe is all East Eurasian leaning as well. (Oase, Ust Ishim)
Most logical explanation says: PRQ reached the Siberian Europeans from an East Eurasian population. Probably even K2 in general is East Eurasian, meaning MNOPQRS.

Now back to the topic of R2. Since Mal'ta shares obvious Indian affinity, here are two possibilities here:
1) an Indian-like population used to inhabit the Siberian steppe, until it was overtaken by European, Amerind, and East Siberian types.

2) an Indian-like population colonized these peoples with PRQ.

Given the extreme paucity of association between Euro HGs and anything K2, as well as the evidence that P expanded south to north rather than vice versa, it seems simple to accept the 2nd possibility over the 1st. P originated in SEAsia, some R spread to east India, and some of them ended up influencing something that would ultimately father the Mal'ta-like population. Which of course means that R2 could well have been of Indian, rather than Iranian origin.

thejkhan
12-31-2019, 10:37 PM
Given the extreme paucity of association between Euro HGs and anything K2, as well as the evidence that P expanded south to north rather than vice versa, it seems simple to accept the 2nd possibility over the 1st. P originated in SEAsia, some R spread to east India, and some of them ended up influencing something that would ultimately father the Mal'ta-like population. Which of course means that R2 could well have been of Indian, rather than Iranian origin.

Tbh, R's or R2's origin has nothing to do with India.

Obviously the Yana P1 split somewhere in Northern Eurasia to become Q and R.

We also don't know whether P originates in SE Asia. The diversity of early P branches in SE Asia indicates it has been able to preserve them well.

What we do know:
K2b was in China
P1 was in Siberia
oldest R found in Siberia
oldest R1 found in Europe
oldest R2 found in Iran (?)

So going by whatever we know, R's earliest ancestors in East Asia were in Northern China. From there they move to Siberia. The R population moves westward and bifurcates into two, one ending up in Eastern Europe (R1) and the other heading towards either Caucasus or Central Asia (R2).

SpinosaurusN3H1
01-02-2020, 03:37 PM
Haplogroup R2 (one of the most common haplogroups in India) is in the same family as R1a. But it diverged from R1a a long time ago. It's very rare outside South Asia and it peaks in Sinhalese Sri Lankans and South Indians. Did this haplogroup come due to West Eurasian migrants or was it indigenous to India (Ancestral South Indians)?

It peaks among Sinhalese as a community but are found at high percentages in a number of northernly sub-groups/castes like Jaunpur Kshatriyas, Karmalis of Bengal, Bihar Yadavs, and most Brahmins. Apart from this high among Kammas and Kallars. Seems to have a strong distribution in the Gangetic plains, Kaliga, Telugu regions.


I think, that it is possible, that R2 is the same IE as R1.
There are very good reasons for that. Especially after
discovering the Maltaboy, it is almost certain. And btw,
there is no place for R2 in India without IEs. Dravidians
are H, Indus Valley L, some Monkhmers O, and some
old austroveddo-migrants C. Who would be R2? Noone.

It is funny cause original Reich 2009 paper considered R2 as ASI while R1 as ANI. I on the other hand always believed that specific branches of C, F, K, HIJK, etc should only be ASI. Rest all migrants.


Better look at his wersten affinity. He was a mixed child. Indian au was a minority part. 50-60% was EHG (on your picture some 34%), 15-20% other caucasoidic and rest AmInd-like (on your pic. 17%). He just had some asiatic Pocahontas as a grandmother. Thats all. I guess, his family or clan was on the mammoth-trek heading from the west through the eurasiatic steppe. Most of his tribe had to stay at home and neighbourhood, probably somewhere between Volga and Ural, plus occasionaly probably did occupy parts of western Siberia, like Aftonova Gora - so the result was: Maltaboy.

Malta Boy is ANE and if I'm not mistaken, EHG is a group derived from ANE, not the other way around. EHG has 75% ANE. And what's with the 19th century scientific races in pure genetic related forums? Isn't all African, West Eurasian, South Asian and East Eurasian in genetics? The reconstructions of old WHG, SHG and EHGs etc, classified as west-Eurasian, looked primitive proto-Australoids and proto-Mongoloids. Examples - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Skull_reconstruction_in_Kosnenky_2.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neanderthaler,_Oase,_Rum%C3%A4nien_(Daniela_H itzemann).jpg

aaronbee2010
01-02-2020, 05:40 PM
It peaks among Sinhalese as a community but are found at high percentages in a number of northernly sub-groups/castes like Jaunpur Kshatriyas, Karmalis of Bengal, Bihar Yadavs, and most Brahmins. Apart from this high among Kammas and Kallars. Seems to have a strong distribution in the Gangetic plains, Kaliga, Telugu regions.

The main South Asian distribution of R2 in South Asia appears to be clustered around Bengal and Andhra Pradesh (fairly similar to T1a and J2b) appears to mainly be R2a-Y26630 and R2a-L295 (this is a broad subclade that has many branches, with differing origins). Pakistan also seems to have another R2 cluster as well, which appears to be a mix of various R2a and R2b subclades, some of which aren't currently found in other parts of South Asia.


It is funny cause original Reich 2009 paper considered R2 as ASI while R1 as ANI. I on the other hand always believed that specific branches of C, F, K, HIJK, etc should only be ASI. Rest all migrants.

The vast majority of R2 present in South Asia is R2a, which originated around West Iran. The R2a in SA can be split into R-FGC13203 and R-M9710, both of which appear to also have a West Asian origin. The R2b present in South Asia appears to have C/SC Asian origins. All of this doesn't lend well to the idea of R2 being ASI. I would class R2 in India as been a W/SC Asian phenomenon and not an AASI one.

I'm not an expert on ancient Indian haplogroups, but if I had to guess, it would look like the first Y-DNA line to enter that region would've been H-M2826 (including samples previously classified as F* due to being M69-) (45600-44400 ybp), followed by C-K98 (46600-21300 ybp) followed by all of the other haplogropus we're familiar with.

indusnomad
01-11-2020, 02:13 AM
The main South Asian distribution of R2 in South Asia appears to be clustered around Bengal and Andhra Pradesh (fairly similar to T1a and J2b) appears to mainly be R2a-Y26630 and R2a-L295 (this is a broad subclade that has many branches, with differing origins). Pakistan also seems to have another R2 cluster as well, which appears to be a mix of various R2a and R2b subclades, some of which aren't currently found in other parts of South Asia.



The vast majority of R2 present in South Asia is R2a, which originated around West Iran. The R2a in SA can be split into R-FGC13203 and R-M9710, both of which appear to also have a West Asian origin. The R2b present in South Asia appears to have C/SC Asian origins. All of this doesn't lend well to the idea of R2 being ASI. I would class R2 in India as been a W/SC Asian phenomenon and not an AASI one.

I'm not an expert on ancient Indian haplogroups, but if I had to guess, it would look like the first Y-DNA line to enter that region would've been H-M2826 (including samples previously classified as F* due to being M69-) (45600-44400 ybp), followed by C-K98 (46600-21300 ybp) followed by all of the other haplogropus we're familiar with.

Interesting. What do you think is the origin of R-L295?

aaronbee2010
01-11-2020, 02:26 AM
Interesting. What do you think is the origin of R-L295?

Most likely West Iran imo

indusnomad
01-11-2020, 03:03 AM
Thanks

davit
09-23-2020, 04:22 PM
This cope, lol. WE WUZ PRQ N' STUFF.

https://i.imgur.com/ihbEHRg.png

The trajectory of haplogroup K, and thus K2, and thus K2b, and thus P and thus R, follows a clear counterclockwise rotation through Eurasia. We have hundreds, if not thousands of samples from paleo Europe, and the very first R (or even general K2b for that matter) is only from 13kya in Villabruna.

We have only a few from the ANE Siberians, and we see it's chock full of PRQ. The Yana ANEs from 33kya also have slightly more Eastern admixture than the Mal'ta ANEs from 24kya.

Only a few from China as well, and we still see that K2b was in Beijing 42,000 years ago, in an autosomally East Eurasian population (Tianyuan Man) with zero ANE mixture.

We also have present populations in the South Pacific (Aetas, Melanesians, various others) who show significant levels of P and other K2b groups, with zero ANE admixture. Incidentally, they show blondism as well, like Afontova Gora, but mediated with different alleles (perhaps light hair arose in SE Asia?)

Even the early K2a (NO*) in Europe is all East Eurasian leaning as well. (Oase, Ust Ishim)
Most logical explanation says: PRQ reached the Siberian Europeans from an East Eurasian population. Probably even K2 in general is East Eurasian, meaning MNOPQRS.

Now back to the topic of R2. Since Mal'ta shares obvious Indian affinity, here are two possibilities here:
1) an Indian-like population used to inhabit the Siberian steppe, until it was overtaken by European, Amerind, and East Siberian types.

2) an Indian-like population colonized these peoples with PRQ.

Given the extreme paucity of association between Euro HGs and anything K2, as well as the evidence that P expanded south to north rather than vice versa, it seems simple to accept the 2nd possibility over the 1st. P originated in SEAsia, some R spread to east India, and some of them ended up influencing something that would ultimately father the Mal'ta-like population. Which of course means that R2 could well have been of Indian, rather than Iranian origin.


Isn't the myth of blonde ANE a myth? Most likely European blonde hair is associated with Anatolia_N-WHG admixed populations.