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prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 07:00 AM
Result of my cousin, a western up Jatt adjoining Haryana border. Past 4 generations are jatts from both sides

Clan: Sheoran


[email protected]:~/test# ./DIYDodecadLinux64 harappaworld.par
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-- DIY Dodecad v 2.1 --------------------------------------
[email protected]@@@@@@----
-- Copyright (c) 2011 Dienekes Pontikos [email protected]@[email protected]@---
[email protected]@---
-- More information: [email protected]@@@@@@----
----- Dienekes' Anthropology Blog [email protected]@----------
-------- http://dienekes.blogspot.com [email protected]@----------
----- The Dodecad Ancestry Project [email protected]@@@@@@@@---
-------- http://dodecad.blogspot.com ----------------------
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16 ancestral populations
188173 total SNPs
16 flipped SNPs
18451 heterozygous SNPs
801 no-calls
135439 absent SNPs
0.275985 genotype rate
mode genomewide

136240 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)

54970 dQ: 1.000E-10 goal: 1.000E-10

54973 total iterations
1.000E-10 final dQ

----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

25.99% S-Indian
35.25% Baloch
10.70% Caucasian
21.59% NE-Euro
0.00% SE-Asian
0.73% Siberian
0.00% NE-Asian
0.45% Papuan
1.09% American
1.97% Beringian
2.13% Mediterranean
0.00% SW-Asian
0.00% San
0.00% E-African
0.12% Pygmy
0.00% W-African

CPU time = 942.58 sec
[email protected]:~/test#

prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 07:08 AM
He is my cousin from mother's side, below average in looks and complexion among the family. I was not expecting such a high NE euro as 22%, probably topped the list of Indians. Y-haplo is L-M357 and Mtdna-M3a1.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-25-2018, 07:33 AM
Can you run his data on gedmatch Harappa?

prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 07:47 AM
Infact, I could not go for these tests from India and was interested in seeing the result of someone from the family so I asked him to go for it. Though he was not interested in this DNA thing at all, somehow I convinced him to take the test in USA....lol.......
He got his results today run it on Harappa on my behest, though unwillingly. I will get all other details from him and of course will seek his permission to reveal all the raw data. I am not well versed in this stuff so I am thinking of sharing all with Sapporo, his L-M357 brother :)

agent_lime
06-25-2018, 07:59 AM
He is my cousin from mother's side, below average in looks and complexion among the family. I was not expecting such a high NE euro as 22%, probably topped the list of Indians. Y-haplo is L-M357 and Mtdna-M3a1.

I don't think I've seen NE Euro as high from any Indian. How high do you do, since you are related.

prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 08:07 AM
I don't think I've seen NE Euro as high from any Indian. How high do you do, since you are related.
I am not tested

agent_lime
06-25-2018, 08:25 AM
I am not tested

Oh well. I wish there was a cheap service in India.

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 08:47 AM
Infact, I could not go for these tests from India and was interested in seeing the result of someone from the family so I asked him to go for it. Though he was not interested in this DNA thing at all, somehow I convinced him to take the test in USA....lol.......
He got his results today run it on Harappa on my behest, though unwillingly. I will get all other details from him and of course will seek his permission to reveal all the raw data. I am not well versed in this stuff so I am thinking of sharing all with Sapporo, his L-M357 brother :)

LOL just get his raw data file and Sapporo and the rest of the gang will take care of it :)
We need to plot this dude.

kush
06-25-2018, 09:35 AM
holy jesus... his NE euro+mediterranean is roughly the same as his south indian. I just can't right now. I feel like the ne-euro could even go higher than S.indian in some folks over there.

bmoney
06-25-2018, 09:58 AM
Whats the gedmatch kit no?

nuplix
06-25-2018, 10:06 AM
Can you please share the kit number?

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 10:10 AM
holy jesus... his NE euro+mediterranean is roughly the same as his south indian. I just can't right now. I feel like the ne-euro could even go higher than S.indian in some folks over there.

There is something about the Jatts of that region, their NE Euro is way more than my grandmother and her brother:




Population



S-Indian
15.52


Baloch
29.71


Caucasian
17.06


NE-Euro
17.98


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
4.34


NE-Asian
8.44


Papuan
0.58


American
3.07


Beringian
0.62


Mediterranean
1.97


SW-Asian
0.72


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
-






Population



S-Indian
16.62


Baloch
32.07


Caucasian
19.14


NE-Euro
16.49


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
3.63


NE-Asian
5.87


Papuan
0.73


American
2.11


Beringian
0.79


Mediterranean
1.48


SW-Asian
0.91


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.16

prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 10:11 AM
Hey guys, I don't have kit number at the moment. I will ask my brother and let you know. if someone can explain, how these kit-number and all is assigned?

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 10:16 AM
^^ When a raw data file is uploaded to gedmatch.com it is automatically assigned a Kit #.
The results you posted look like from a DIY run, so maybe your cousin didn't upload it to Gedmatch yet?
If he doesn't have much interest in uploading it or doing anything with it. Ask for his raw data, and upload it yourself under an anonymous name like WEST UP JATT and make the kit private.
At least that way you can run it on things.

prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 10:50 AM
Thanks Khana. It has been uploaded as M646186 (west UP jatt_sheoran), not sure if he uploaded correctly :)

pegasus
06-25-2018, 10:52 AM
Thats definitely the highest I have seen, which makes me wonder if there are 25% ones out there in rural Haryana. All the most Steppe Shifted ones are Y dna L , so its definitely come from Steppe shifted Tajik like groups in Antiquity. Area extending from Hisar to Karnal , does have Kushan related artifacts, Kushan stupas and the capital of their empire for a time was Mathura. So the majority of this Steppe is being dumped by these Kushans. Since they fall out of the varna system yet have the highest Steppe its quite clear it arrived in the last 1500-2000 years.

pegasus
06-25-2018, 10:57 AM
There is something about the Jatts of that region, their NE Euro is way more than my grandmother and her brother:




Population



S-Indian
15.52


Baloch
29.71


Caucasian
17.06


NE-Euro
17.98


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
4.34


NE-Asian
8.44


Papuan
0.58


American
3.07


Beringian
0.62


Mediterranean
1.97


SW-Asian
0.72


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
-






Population



S-Indian
16.62


Baloch
32.07


Caucasian
19.14


NE-Euro
16.49


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
3.63


NE-Asian
5.87


Papuan
0.73


American
2.11


Beringian
0.79


Mediterranean
1.48


SW-Asian
0.91


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.16



What is their ancestry?

bmoney
06-25-2018, 11:31 AM
Thanks Khana. It has been uploaded as M646186 (west UP jatt_sheoran), not sure if he uploaded correctly :)

it checks out bro, highest NE Euro + Med i've ever seen in a South Asian, possibly higher than Tajik Rushan? with a Haryana Jatt Profile

Here are the oracles peeps FYI:



Using 1 population approximation:
1 haryana-jatt_harappa @ 4.921370
2 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 10.091839
3 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 10.791029
4 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 12.489895
5 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 13.064401
6 nepali_harappa @ 13.221250
7 pathan_hgdp @ 13.682179
8 nepalese-a_xing @ 13.999750
9 kashmiri_harappa @ 14.526115
10 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 14.567084
11 sindhi_harappa @ 14.720355
12 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 14.901998
13 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 14.926667
14 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 15.311931
15 bhatia_harappa @ 15.319475
16 burusho_hgdp @ 15.464457
17 punjabi_harappa @ 15.635611
18 pashtun_harappa @ 16.412382
19 up-muslim_harappa @ 16.463779
20 kalash_hgdp @ 16.468153

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% haryana-jatt_harappa +50% haryana-jatt_harappa @ 4.921370


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% bhatia_harappa +25% gujarati-a_hapmap +25% russian_behar @ 3.205919


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.734094
2 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar @ 2.778328
3 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.893650
4 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.922309
5 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar @ 2.935665
6 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar @ 3.030631
7 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 3.044136
8 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar + sindhi_hgdp @ 3.077124
9 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.108921
10 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.128821
11 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.149777
12 bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kurmi_metspalu + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 3.159826
13 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 3.161934
14 bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + velama_metspalu @ 3.162123
15 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 3.170747
16 goan_harappa + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + punjabi-arain_xing @ 3.201539
17 bhatia_harappa + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + russian_behar @ 3.205919
18 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.207471
19 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + pathan_hgdp @ 3.217678
20 belorussian_behar + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp @ 3.226681

I'd comment that the few West UP Jatts ive seen do not look anything like 1/4 European or Rushan Tajiks.

A family of one went to school with me and the one in my class was always asked about India topics and Indian holidays whereas I got away due to being lighter skinned which to the goray automatically meant you couldn't be Indian.

The phenotype genotype lack of correlation in Haryana + West UP Jatts is quite fascinating, having said that I haven't seen many @prashantvaidwan would have a better idea

prashantvaidwan
06-25-2018, 12:06 PM
it checks out bro, highest NE Euro + Med i've ever seen in a South Asian, possibly higher than Tajik Rushan? with a Haryana Jatt Profile

Here are the oracles peeps FYI:



Using 1 population approximation:
1 haryana-jatt_harappa @ 4.921370
2 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 10.091839
3 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 10.791029
4 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 12.489895
5 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 13.064401
6 nepali_harappa @ 13.221250
7 pathan_hgdp @ 13.682179
8 nepalese-a_xing @ 13.999750
9 kashmiri_harappa @ 14.526115
10 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 14.567084
11 sindhi_harappa @ 14.720355
12 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 14.901998
13 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 14.926667
14 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 15.311931
15 bhatia_harappa @ 15.319475
16 burusho_hgdp @ 15.464457
17 punjabi_harappa @ 15.635611
18 pashtun_harappa @ 16.412382
19 up-muslim_harappa @ 16.463779
20 kalash_hgdp @ 16.468153

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% haryana-jatt_harappa +50% haryana-jatt_harappa @ 4.921370


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% bhatia_harappa +25% gujarati-a_hapmap +25% russian_behar @ 3.205919


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.734094
2 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar @ 2.778328
3 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.893650
4 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 2.922309
5 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar @ 2.935665
6 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar @ 3.030631
7 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 3.044136
8 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + russian_behar + sindhi_hgdp @ 3.077124
9 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.108921
10 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.128821
11 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.149777
12 bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kurmi_metspalu + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 3.159826
13 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 3.161934
14 bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + velama_metspalu @ 3.162123
15 gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev @ 3.170747
16 goan_harappa + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + punjabi-arain_xing @ 3.201539
17 bhatia_harappa + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + russian_behar @ 3.205919
18 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + kalash_hgdp + russian_hgdp @ 3.207471
19 gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp + mordovian_yunusbayev + pathan_hgdp @ 3.217678
20 belorussian_behar + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + kalash_hgdp @ 3.226681

I'd comment that the few West UP Jatts ive seen do not look anything like 1/4 European or Rushan Tajiks.

A family of one went to school with me and the one in my class was always asked about India topics and Indian holidays whereas I got away due to being lighter skinned which to the goray automatically meant you couldn't be Indian.

The phenotype genotype lack of correlation in Haryana + West UP Jatts is quite fascinating, having said that I haven't seen many @prashantvaidwan would have a better idea

West UP Jatts (generally all jatts) show all kind of phenotypes. As we are from neighboring haryana border area so not easily distinguishable from haryana jatts. If i say jatts are tall with strong built and attractive features, it will break the hell loose here....hahaha.. So I don't want to open a pandora box and will avoid to comment on phenotypes in details...lol... I agree that genotype and phenotype are not directly related and on an average jatts look not much different from other north west guys but it's not that all 20% ne euro has gone out of window. A visit to jatt rural establishments will give a better idea. this is all i can say in brief.

bmoney
06-25-2018, 12:11 PM
Thats definitely the highest I have seen, which makes me wonder if there are 25% ones out there in rural Haryana. All the most Steppe Shifted ones are Y dna L , so its definitely come from Steppe shifted Tajik like groups in Antiquity. Area extending from Hisar to Karnal , does have Kushan related artifacts, Kushan stupas and the capital of their empire for a time was Mathura. So the majority of this Steppe is being dumped by these Kushans. Since they fall out of the varna system yet have the highest Steppe its quite clear it arrived in the last 1500-2000 years.

The funny thing is L1a2 is definitely not a steppe marker (not IE not Uralic not in any steppe sample beyond Swat IA), its northernmost range is Chechnya. I believe theres some sort of founder effect playing out in Central Asia where L1a2 attaches itself to a high steppe group like the Kushans as you mention

24238

The Kalash are another high L1a2 (subclade within L1a2) population with high steppe ancestry

pegasus
06-25-2018, 12:38 PM
it came with Central Asians because Jats also score high Q. The case of these Haryana/UP/Rajastan Jats is interesting though because of the few I met in IRL and the pics I have seen online, I would never in a million years think they harbor this much Steppe based of their looks. Ironically the Punjabi Jats who are more Zagrosian shifted tend to look more exotic relative to their Haryana/UP cousins.

poi
06-25-2018, 01:15 PM
I will run the kit against all the Gedmatch calcs and will update the PCA today.

bmoney
06-25-2018, 02:09 PM
it came with Central Asians because Jats also score high Q. The case of these Haryana/UP/Rajastan Jats is interesting though because of the few I met in IRL and the pics I have seen online, I would never in a million years think they harbor this much Steppe based of their looks. Ironically the Punjabi Jats who are more Zagrosian shifted tend to look more exotic relative to their Haryana/UP cousins.

yes this was my thinking, but West UP Jatts score like Haryana Jatts from what ive seen so far.

Sikh Jatts generally have more Punjab-wide 'Caucasian' admixture probably from the locals

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 02:31 PM
What is their ancestry?

That's my grandmother's Harrapa and her brother's. 75% Kho + 25% Uzbek.
Top is her brother, bottom is Grandmother (mGM - Balq).

MonkeyDLuffy
06-25-2018, 02:33 PM
Can you make the kit not private? I want to check if I get him as match, because I get a lot of haryana jats as matches, some of them were part of harrapa project as well. So I'm curious if I share with him as well.

Regarding the low SI, the lowest SI scoring jatt we've seen was a Punjabi Sikh jatt, I think his clan name was punia, who scored 23~ SI. User was not mixed. I'll try to find his results.

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 02:47 PM
Sorted by NE Euro, chilling with Rushan and Yagnobi. We need to run him on other calculators, NE Euro in Harappa doesn't correlate exactly one-to-one with Steppe.

https://i.gyazo.com/4f4a4a13d4f0a85604b7c7f07ccc18bb.png

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 02:55 PM
Can you make the kit not private? I want to check if I get him as match, because I get a lot of haryana jats as matches, some of them were part of harrapa project as well. So I'm curious if I share with him as well.

Regarding the low SI, the lowest SI scoring jatt we've seen was a Punjabi Sikh jatt, I think his clan name was punia, who scored 23~ SI. User was not mixed. I'll try to find his results.

Sorted by SI (I don't have the Jatt you are speaking of). His SI and Caucasian is very similar to my mother (mAunt). PJL A 33 has very low SI as well, but his NE Euro is low. Maybe he is Arain.

https://i.gyazo.com/a7cc86b639f617e94b44e2c799797cb1.png

purohit
06-25-2018, 03:08 PM
Meri pichli waali gym mein. Ek jaat aata tha bhola sa. Hisar ka tha. Angrej lagta tha(almost)
Baaki bhai height body theek hoti hai jaato mein par or other caste mein bhi hoti hai. Meri caste waalo mein deel achhi hoti hai. Meri height bhi theek hai. Achhi height body jaato tak seemit nhi hai. Meri area mein bishnoi jyada rehte hai. Unki height brahmano rajputo jitni hi hai

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 03:13 PM
I was looking at Med, but didn't really notice a pattern. So I looked at SW Asian and saw something interesting. It's unrelated to the Jatt at hand, but I figured I'd post it anyways. In S/SC Asia the most SW Asian outside of the Baloch, Brahui, Makrani are mostly Syeds....

https://i.gyazo.com/3ddd7e5ef70a55f3530151ba05fc5b88.png

poi
06-25-2018, 03:44 PM
I just ran that Western UP Jatt's kit through all calculators (spreadsheet is pending, probably tonight). Based on the PCA using all Gedmatch scores, surprisingly, that kit is NOT the most Steppe shifted despite that high Harappa NE-Euro. The kit surprisingly has the lower Steppe pull among other Haryana Jatts. But there are only 3 Haryana Jatts in my collection. One of the Haryana Jatt is almost Tajik-like steppe fwiw

agent_lime
06-25-2018, 04:13 PM
I just ran that Western UP Jatt's kit through all calculators (spreadsheet is pending, probably tonight). Based on the PCA using all Gedmatch scores, surprisingly, that kit is NOT the most Steppe shifted despite that high Harappa NE-Euro. The kit surprisingly has the lower Steppe pull among other Haryana Jatts. But there are only 3 Haryana Jatts in my collection. One of the Haryana Jatt is almost Tajik-like steppe fwiw

I've known a few Haryana Jatt's that I suspect might be over 25% NE Euro. Too bad I can't get genetic samples from them.

On Khana saying low SI, good chance some of my extended family is under under mine at 28%. They almost don't even look North Indian/ Pakistani.

No way to prove either, wish I could give out these tests like candy.

poi
06-25-2018, 05:16 PM
I've known a few Haryana Jatt's that I suspect might be over 25% NE Euro. Too bad I can't get genetic samples from them.

On Khana saying low SI, good chance some of my extended family is under under mine at 28%. They almost don't even look North Indian/ Pakistani.

No way to prove either, wish I could give out these tests like candy.

Bro, are you basing that on the phenotype? I would think inter-group levels can and does correlate with the phenotype(i.e. Steppe-shifted, low-ASI NW groups look different from no-steppe, high-ASI SE groups), but how can you look at individual members within (endogamous) groups and think an individual is more or less shifted? Help me understand this. I would say randomness has significantly more impact within (endogamous) groups. So, unless I'm completely off, phenotypically-West-Asian-looking Khatris would score no differently than those South-Asian-looking Khatris.

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 07:26 PM
I just ran that Western UP Jatt's kit through all calculators (spreadsheet is pending, probably tonight). Based on the PCA using all Gedmatch scores, surprisingly, that kit is NOT the most Steppe shifted despite that high Harappa NE-Euro. The kit surprisingly has the lower Steppe pull among other Haryana Jatts. But there are only 3 Haryana Jatts in my collection. One of the Haryana Jatt is almost Tajik-like steppe fwiw

I was somewhat expecting this, because Rushan is not the most Steppiest Tajik... Yagnobi is (well.. I guess that depends... but, I digress). The Chitralis tend to be more steppe than many, but they are lower NE Euro here. Hence, my "we need to check him on other calcs" comment. So I think Harappa's NE Euro is not catching "Steppe" 1-1. I mean, then again, as you all know... I'm not a Harappa fan, so account for that bias in my statement LOL.

And that one Haryana Jatt is like HRP0393 or something like that right? That sample perplexes me. Honestly, we should consider it an outlier.

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 07:38 PM
^^ I assume Khatris will be in that >28 range on Harappa, I have a few Khatri Kapoors I'll check them in a bit. However, SI changes from calc to calc... just look at Sapporo v. MDL v. me; depending on how many components or what the references are, sometimes we all switch places in who has more or less SI/ASI. Of all components, I'm least confident to say who has more/less ASI in a general sense (especially b/w populations in the same geographical region), because how we define AASI/ASI/SI is so volatile. I mean we can make generalizations that it usually increases as you go east or south, but if you're on the same longitude/lattitude, it's a lot harder to parse these things out. Who has more ASI, a Khatri, a Lohana, a Gujarati Brahmin, an Arain, me? I don't really know yet. Because those positions swap a lot. Our approach to ASI is more like solving for X... we have real samples for the other things, so what's left over we call ASI.... that's not defined enough for us to yet determine nuances within a region in my opinion. Better to concentrate of getting Iran N and Steppe (or Steppe-derived/like) admixture levels right first... since at least those are far more well-defined.

khanabadoshi
06-25-2018, 07:46 PM
Here you go, Punjab scores. Khatri Kapoors? seems to be 29-30% SI on Harappa; the Gulati Arora is 27:

https://i.gyazo.com/fa377a831ec411e979f561e464279512.png

bol_nat
06-25-2018, 08:05 PM
Meri pichli waali gym mein. Ek jaat aata tha bhola sa. Hisar ka tha. Angrej lagta tha(almost)
Baaki bhai height body theek hoti hai jaato mein par or other caste mein bhi hoti hai. Meri caste waalo mein deel achhi hoti hai. Meri height bhi theek hai. Achhi height body jaato tak seemit nhi hai. Meri area mein bishnoi jyada rehte hai. Unki height brahmano rajputo jitni hi hai

I think when people say angrej, that is bit of exaggeration no? From what I've seen from anthroscape photos, at must some lighter type south asians can look like kashmiris feature wise.

pegasus
06-25-2018, 11:17 PM
I've known a few Haryana Jatt's that I suspect might be over 25% NE Euro. Too bad I can't get genetic samples from them.

On Khana saying low SI, good chance some of my extended family is under under mine at 28%. They almost don't even look North Indian/ Pakistani.

No way to prove either, wish I could give out these tests like candy.

I am sure there are outliers as in any community , but corelating SI scores with appearance esp in this part of the world does not work very often. Also its relative, people with lighter skin are automatically dumped in this category of looking European. As you move NW into the subcontinent, where the general population is light skinned, the definition changes.

pegasus
06-25-2018, 11:45 PM
I think when people say angrej, that is bit of exaggeration no? From what I've seen from anthroscape photos, at must some lighter type south asians can look like kashmiris feature wise.

IT is, and its relative. From what I notice being lighter skinned in India, slots u in the exotic "Euro" category but its a grave exaggeration.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-26-2018, 12:34 AM
I was somewhat expecting this, because Rushan is not the most Steppiest Tajik... Yagnobi is (well.. I guess that depends... but, I digress). The Chitralis tend to be more steppe than many, but they are lower NE Euro here. Hence, my "we need to check him on other calcs" comment. So I think Harappa's NE Euro is not catching "Steppe" 1-1. I mean, then again, as you all know... I'm not a Harappa fan, so account for that bias in my statement LOL.

And that one Haryana Jatt is like HRP0393 or something like that right? That sample perplexes me. Honestly, we should consider it an outlier.

I won't put him as outlier, like I mentioned we found results of a punia Sikh jatt hitting 23 SI, so it is possible we might find someone hitting 24-25 NE euro in jatt community. Question is how high we can go lol. I'll have to dig deeper for more haryana jatts from my matches.

Sapporo
06-26-2018, 01:38 AM
I won't put him as outlier, like I mentioned we found results of a punia Sikh jatt hitting 23 SI, so it is possible we might find someone hitting 24-25 NE euro in jatt community. Question is how high we can go lol. I'll have to dig deeper for more haryana jatts from my matches.

I think he meant that HRP0393 (Beniwal) was more South Asian shifted than some of the other Hindu Jats at 30.99% South Indian on Harappa. Otherwise, his NE Euro and Med are near the average. However, there is another Haryana Jat who is at 29.6% SI (Teotia) and the half Haryana Jat/half Western UP Jat is at 28.3% with 42% Baloch. I don't have his kit but there is another Haryana Jat who Dr_McNinja found before who is also not too different from the Beniwal on Eurogenes calculators with regards to his South Asian %. Then a few of the other Haryana and Rajasthani Jats have been in the 25-28% South Indian range.


I've known a few Haryana Jatt's that I suspect might be over 25% NE Euro. Too bad I can't get genetic samples from them.

On Khana saying low SI, good chance some of my extended family is under under mine at 28%. They almost don't even look North Indian/ Pakistani.

No way to prove either, wish I could give out these tests like candy.

I wouldn't correlate phenotype to genotype. I know how one of the 25% South Indian 17% NE Euro Haryana Jats (HRP0275/276) looks. It's not remotely close to anything non South Asian looking.

Sapporo
06-26-2018, 01:49 AM
Sorted by NE Euro, chilling with Rushan and Yagnobi. We need to run him on other calculators, NE Euro in Harappa doesn't correlate exactly one-to-one with Steppe.

https://i.gyazo.com/4f4a4a13d4f0a85604b7c7f07ccc18bb.png


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to add some of the Jatts from my spreadsheet to your chart. A few of them should overlap with the mid to lower end of the threshold for the results you posted.

agent_lime
06-26-2018, 01:51 AM
Bro, are you basing that on the phenotype? I would think inter-group levels can and does correlate with the phenotype(i.e. Steppe-shifted, low-ASI NW groups look different from no-steppe, high-ASI SE groups), but how can you look at individual members within (endogamous) groups and think an individual is more or less shifted? Help me understand this. I would say randomness has significantly more impact within (endogamous) groups. So, unless I'm completely off, phenotypically-West-Asian-looking Khatris would score no differently than those South-Asian-looking Khatris.

I get what you are saying. I'm wrong then, just that some of my family members are a lot more Arora(which is lower SI) than I am. And every so often(5th-6th maybe) we have family members that do not pass at all in India. I was guessing(probably wrongly) that phenotype expression due to random variation might have to do with higher Caucasian or NE Euro with lower SI.

bmoney
06-26-2018, 02:02 AM
I just ran that Western UP Jatt's kit through all calculators (spreadsheet is pending, probably tonight). Based on the PCA using all Gedmatch scores, surprisingly, that kit is NOT the most Steppe shifted despite that high Harappa NE-Euro. The kit surprisingly has the lower Steppe pull among other Haryana Jatts. But there are only 3 Haryana Jatts in my collection. One of the Haryana Jatt is almost Tajik-like steppe fwiw

What was the strongest pull, Baloch or steppe?

poi
06-26-2018, 02:03 AM
I get what you are saying. I'm wrong then, just that some of my family members are a lot more Arora(which is lower SI) than I am. And every so often(5th-6th maybe) we have family members that do not pass at all in India. I was guessing(probably wrongly) that phenotype expression due to random variation might have to do with higher Caucasian or NE Euro with lower SI.

Only a few SNPs decide your hair color, eye color, and skin color. Think about it. There are 10 million SNPs. Most non-tribals in South Asia have many(but not all) of the SNPs for lighter skin. Otherwise we would all be pitch black. And many have many SNPs necessary for lighter eyes and hair. Just look at 23andme's probability charts. They are basing those on actual SNPs that they think determine those traits. You could argue about the details and say they are not including all of them, but that is not the point.

The point is that you have many(but not all) SNPs for light hair, eyes, skin, etc. Europeans have pretty much ALL SNPs for those traits. Middle Easterners have most SNPs for those traits. South Asians have some SNPs for those traits. Some South Asians (and many in NW) happen to have higher chance of getting all of those SNPs necessary for light pigmentation/eyes/hair due to more infusion of West Eurasians and sexual selection for lighter traits.

poi
06-26-2018, 02:04 AM
What was the strongest pull, Baloch or steppe?

Bro, I will update the PCA with the latest Gedmatch scores. Probably in a few hours. I have not had chance to look at it beyond glancing at major things.

pegasus
06-26-2018, 04:06 AM
Only a few SNPs decide your hair color, eye color, and skin color. Think about it. There are 10 million SNPs. Most non-tribals in South Asia have many(but not all) of the SNPs for lighter skin. Otherwise we would all be pitch black. And many have many SNPs necessary for lighter eyes and hair. Just look at 23andme's probability charts. They are basing those on actual SNPs that they think determine those traits. You could argue about the details and say they are not including all of them, but that is not the point.

The point is that you have many(but not all) SNPs for light hair, eyes, skin, etc. Europeans have pretty much ALL SNPs for those traits. Middle Easterners have most SNPs for those traits. South Asians have some SNPs for those traits. Some South Asians (and many in NW) happen to have higher chance of getting all of those SNPs necessary for light pigmentation/eyes/hair due to more infusion of West Eurasians and sexual selection for lighter traits.

Also there are other factors, climate selection, selective breeding , founder effects.

khanabadoshi
06-26-2018, 05:51 PM
I won't put him as outlier, like I mentioned we found results of a punia Sikh jatt hitting 23 SI, so it is possible we might find someone hitting 24-25 NE euro in jatt community. Question is how high we can go lol. I'll have to dig deeper for more haryana jatts from my matches.


I think he meant that HRP0393 (Beniwal) was more South Asian shifted than some of the other Hindu Jats at 30.99% South Indian on Harappa. Otherwise, his NE Euro and Med are near the average. However, there is another Haryana Jat who is at 29.6% SI (Teotia) and the half Haryana Jat/half Western UP Jat is at 28.3% with 42% Baloch. I don't have his kit but there is another Haryana Jat who Dr_McNinja found before who is also not too different from the Beniwal on Eurogenes calculators with regards to his South Asian %. Then a few of the other Haryana and Rajasthani Jats have been in the 25-28% South Indian range.



I wouldn't correlate phenotype to genotype. I know how one of the 25% South Indian 17% NE Euro Haryana Jats (HRP0275/276) looks. It's not remotely close to anything non South Asian looking.

I can't remember off the top of my head which Haryana Jatt I'm thinking of, there are 1-2 that always find themselves in some strange position depending on which calculator I'm using and if a PCA is 2D or 3D. Generally, if I use PC1,2,and 3, the Haryana Jatts positions are sensible, but not always. This tells me we still didn't figure out ASI correctly, there are a couple samples in different populations we have a hard time modeling... all of them have one thing in common, their Iran N or Steppe to ASI ratio is difficult to resolve, and so they can never be modeled well. This tells me that we still haven't resolved the basic components yet properly. Either we are all more ASI or more Iran N or more Steppe, or more something else that we haven't figured out yet. Whatever we are more/less of will resolve the Haryana Jatt, my maternal Grandfather, jortita, etc. jortita and mGF should be theoretically easy to fit based on what we have, but they aren't... The clines will switch around a few more times before we have a settled order, in my opinion, and the biggest clue will be the Haryana Jatts. Based on how they look, they should be divergent enough to be off the main cline, like the Makrani or Brahui are -- but they don't, they like to cline around the Hindu Kush pops. So something is yet to be resolved in my opinion.

khanabadoshi
06-26-2018, 05:56 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to add some of the Jatts from my spreadsheet to your chart. A few of them should overlap with the mid to lower end of the threshold for the results you posted.

Thanks, I've been meaning to do that. I'm gonna add your spreadsheet to the "Research and Spreadsheet Center".

bmoney
06-27-2018, 03:49 AM
I can't remember off the top of my head which Haryana Jatt I'm thinking of, there are 1-2 that always find themselves in some strange position depending on which calculator I'm using and if a PCA is 2D or 3D. Generally, if I use PC1,2,and 3, the Haryana Jatts positions are sensible, but not always. This tells me we still didn't figure out ASI correctly, there are a couple samples in different populations we have a hard time modeling... all of them have one thing in common, their Iran N or Steppe to ASI ratio is difficult to resolve, and so they can never be modeled well. This tells me that we still haven't resolved the basic components yet properly. Either we are all more ASI or more Iran N or more Steppe, or more something else that we haven't figured out yet. Whatever we are more/less of will resolve the Haryana Jatt, my maternal Grandfather, jortita, etc. jortita and mGF should be theoretically easy to fit based on what we have, but they aren't... The clines will switch around a few more times before we have a settled order, in my opinion, and the biggest clue will be the Haryana Jatts. Based on how they look, they should be divergent enough to be off the main cline, like the Makrani or Brahui are -- but they don't, they like to cline around the Hindu Kush pops. So something is yet to be resolved in my opinion.

I think understanding the history of Haryana/UP Jatts is crucial for context around steppe migrations.

A few things I want to know, maybe @prashantvaidwan @sapporo @davidski @kurd can chime in:

- Are the proto-Jats more related to Sikh Jatts or Haryana/UP Jatts (who have less 'Baloch')
- Which steppe ancient provides the most input into Haryana/UP Jatts, and is this ancient different to Brahmins (Poltavka outlier?). Can Western Scythians provide a better fit than Sintashta?

prashantvaidwan
06-27-2018, 06:26 AM
I think understanding the history of Haryana/UP Jatts is crucial for context around steppe migrations.

A few things I want to know, maybe @prashantvaidwan @sapporo @davidski @kurd can chime in:

- Are the proto-Jats more related to Sikh Jatts or Haryana/UP Jatts (who have less 'Baloch')
- Which steppe ancient provides the most input into Haryana/UP Jatts, and is this ancient different to Brahmins (Poltavka outlier?). Can Western Scythians provide a better fit than Sintashta?
Honestly speaking, I am bad in the genetics stuff and learning at primitive level . But as there is no ancient aDNA available of any jatt...so it will be hypothetical to say anything about the components but probably modern day jatt samples can be matched with ancient steppe aDNAs .I am not sure but I guess that all the jatts were the same with high-steppe. In the medieval, many independents clans of north wests joined jatt brotherhood and baloch/caucassian/ was traded down the lines. West punjab was the focal point of this phenomenon and had lesser/no impact in south-east punjab, A possible explanation may be that jatt of particular clan of eastern punjab harbors more steppe that its western punjab's counterpart

Regarding the historical narratives, there is not any fully tested theory about their origin, scythians, indo-aryans, etc. There is one theory that they are first mentioned in seventh century in sindh and other theory exhibit that they are ancient and even mentioned as "jartas"( a mahabharat tribe mentioned in karn parva), also mentioned as Zaratoi living in Jalandhar by ptolemy and Geratae by pliny in the country of Amanda (with the Salt range in Punjab).

There are almost 4000 thousands clans among jats and different narrative for each clan. At one side , there is "dabas" clan relating them to dabas people of zagrosian ancestry and on other side there is dahiya as ancient 'dahae" BMAC people. A bunch of clans of sikh jatts resemble with germanic people's last name. Though all these claims are simply laughed off but probably they need a more serious look. For recent migrations, jats have a strong connection with rajasthan, many of the clans of haryana/west UP and punjab trace their migration back from rajasthan. As per the bard narrative of my gotra "baidwan/vaidwan", 600 years back during tughlaq rule, five brothers of "turvansh" dwelled in rajasthan, they killed a tughlaq 's vassal in rajasthan and took shelter in Western UP, one of the brothers stayed in western UP and others moved further north west in punjab and founded four villages in present day mohali, the vicinity of chandigarh. Later on , these people of punjab adopted sikhism. So at present day, 5 core villages ( 1 hindu jat, 4 sikh jatts) of my gotra exists. Two months back, the bard came from the rajasthan in my village and lived in my village for two weeks, he has the written genealogy narrations of last 600 years. ..lol. it seems the fanciful story but this much is the diversity of a clan across region, religion and language.

prashantvaidwan
06-28-2018, 07:42 AM
I just ran that Western UP Jatt's kit through all calculators (spreadsheet is pending, probably tonight). Based on the PCA using all Gedmatch scores, surprisingly, that kit is NOT the most Steppe shifted despite that high Harappa NE-Euro. The kit surprisingly has the lower Steppe pull among other Haryana Jatts. But there are only 3 Haryana Jatts in my collection. One of the Haryana Jatt is almost Tajik-like steppe fwiw

Poi, If you are done, can you please the results and PCA?