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radioavdelning
06-25-2018, 10:27 PM
I know there's isn't a big correlation between DNA and phenotype, but in modern terms I wonder whats the closest approximation.

so out of curiousity, when picturing these ancient populations what do you think they look like?

afbarwaaqo
06-26-2018, 03:32 AM
Probably the negev bedouines, I heard they’re the most natufian ethnic group alive today

NetNomad
06-26-2018, 01:30 PM
They probably looked like Arabians (the non-African mixed non-South Asian mixed kind).

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/V33IEBQueazj96SfeB7qKVS9WHg=/0x0:3819x2512/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:3819x2512)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3338134/77682094.0.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.al-fanarmedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/10155802/Yemen-for-Yemen1.jpg
https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2016/06/18/2b1bd378-43ab-4c25-80da-06d4a395f693/2b1bd378-43ab-4c25-80da-06d4a395f693_16x9_788x442.jpg

Targum
06-26-2018, 04:22 PM
Gulf Arabs and Negev Bedu-maybe
Yemenis- (middle pic) definitely not-too much E African and S Asian admix

misanthropy
06-26-2018, 04:26 PM
I've always imagined them looking like Palestinians and Mediterranean Israelis.


Edit:

Gulf Arabs and Negev Bedu-maybe
Yemenis- (middle pic) definitely not-too much E African and S Asian admix
I agree, although Yemenis seem to score more Mediterranean than Saudis on gedmatch while having more African.

NetNomad
06-26-2018, 04:28 PM
Gulf Arabs and Negev Bedu-maybe
Yemenis- (middle pic) definitely not-too much E African and S Asian admix

Yeah, but upper-paleo Middle Easterners were a bit darker than today. So despite the EA/SA in some Gulf Arabs, the phenotype wouldn't be that much different from proto-Natufians/proto-Afro-Asiatic people.

Targum
06-26-2018, 04:30 PM
I've always imagined them looking like Palestinians and Mediterranean Israelis.
I do too; then I catch myself and remember that the Canaanite-ish ancestors of today's Jews and Palestinians had significant Neolithic Iran and other Steppe admixture via Hittites, Philistines, Hurrians, etc, and the natufians were much earlier.

NetNomad
06-26-2018, 04:36 PM
By the way, I'm a Horner and carry many of the so-called depigmentation SNPs they discovered recently. The ones often used to estimate what ancient genomes looked like. However, I am very brown and nowhere near olive skinned as one would think based on SLC24A5 etc.

blackflash16
06-26-2018, 06:40 PM
Yeah, I'm homozygous for the derived allele at SLC24A5, but I wouldn't describe myself as being light skinned (even relative to most Horners)

Though, two of my younger siblings are definitely close to being olive-skinned.

drobbah
06-26-2018, 07:29 PM
Natufians were definently nowhere near as light as modern middle easterners including those bedouins considering they are homozygous for all these skin related snps.

24272

ZephyrousMandaru
06-27-2018, 03:26 AM
The closest modern examples would probably be Levantine Bedouins, represented by the Bedouin_B sample. However, I would hesitate to draw a comparison with any modern day samples, simply because such an extrapolation is difficult to elucidate since facial reconstructions are at best crude approximations of what ancient populations looked like. I would argue that all Middle Easterners, even the more southerly ethnic groups are lighter than the Neolithic Levantines and possibly even the Neolithic Iranians. Many of these populations were alive during the beginnings of agriculture, so even if they were undergoing depigmentation, they probably weren't lighter than your average Yemeni or Bedouin.

Sikeliot
06-27-2018, 11:24 AM
They probably looked like Arabians (the non-African mixed non-South Asian mixed kind).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.al-fanarmedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/10155802/Yemen-for-Yemen1.jpg


I see clear African in at least two of these men. The man on the right even could be Ethiopian if you didn't know he was Yemeni. I doubt Natufians looked like this.

NetNomad
06-27-2018, 05:57 PM
I see clear African in at least two of these men. The man on the right even could be Ethiopian if you didn't know he was Yemeni. I doubt Natufians looked like this.

Maybe from your Med perspective, from a Horner perspective, he looks too Arab and clearly from Yemen.

Govan
06-27-2018, 07:18 PM
I thouht of a population in between Arabians and Afars , Bejas and Somalis morphologically. Not as sharp as the Arabians due to their Iranian Chalcolitic input. More gracile featured, lanky as the Coushitics, but going by ADMIXTURE not as SSA-shifted. Besides , the more SSA influenced Berbers like Sahrawis and Tuaregs show stirking resemblance with Cushitic people, and Eritreans\Ethiopians.

Baws
06-28-2018, 03:44 AM
Ancient Egyptians were probably the last people to keep that Basal Eurasian/Natufian-like look.

So i guess, they might have looked like Ancient Egyptians.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/Egypt-Feminism.jpg
http://www.egypttoday.com/images/larg/29034.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/www.experience-ancient-egypt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ancient-egyptian-culture.jpg

Michalis Moriopoulos
06-28-2018, 07:34 AM
A subset of Negev Bedouins (called Bedouin B in datasets) is the closest population to the Natufians still living today, but even they have a substantial chunk of Anatolian and Iranian Neolithic ancestry. So, too, do the handful of Ancient Egyptian samples on file. That said, I agree with Baws that Ancient Egyptian art probably emphasizes a stylized "Natufian-rich" phenotype that many commentators have presumptuously (and probably mistakenly) attributed to SSA influence. True blue SSA-mixed groups like Ethiosemites and Cushites have a lot of Natufian-related ancestry; if they bear some resemblance to ancient Egyptian art (the longest-lived Afrocentrist meme of all time), the reason is hardly mysterious.

Awale
06-28-2018, 10:18 AM
Using modern Bedouins like those Negevians makes little sense. As Mike says, they have a fair amount of Iran-Neolithic and Anatolian-Neolithic ancestry:

distance%=4.9242

BedouinB

Natufian 63.8
Ganj-Dareh-N 23.6
Tepecik-Ciftlik-N 12.6

I'm not far from being 60% Dinka-like. Do I look ultra Dinka to any of you? :eyebrows: Also, I think some here are making too much of raw genomic components and their immediate effects on a group's phenotype. Take this Maasai woman, for instance:


https://i.imgur.com/6moIUQO.jpg

She has a pretty so-called Caucasoid facial morphology yet her total West-Eurasian ancestry likely doesn't exceed 15-20%. Why does she look like this, then? Well, because she's manifesting the looks of her Erythraeic speaking ancestors who, through whatever quirks of selection and coincidence, have a bias toward such a facial morphology. Why is this important? Because, even if Negev Bedouins can be modeled as 50%+ Natufian-like; after all the time that's passed and all the other components that they carry, it's perfectly likely that their facial features are more representative of some of their other ancestral groups, even ones that don't show up as prominently as Natufian-like ancestry does.

Also, you guys are picturing things as though these Bedouins' ancestors were pure Levantine Hunter-Gatherers who just had some Iran-N related ancestry from Iran or Mesopotamia tacked onto them when, in reality, some of their Natufian looking ancestry came with other ancestry like Iran-Chalcolithic-related ancestry or Anatolian-Neolithic-related ancestry and so on so forth, and god only knows the weird phenotypic effects all of this had over the ages:

distance%=4.8378

BedouinB

Natufian 61.6
Seh-Gabi-ChL 38.2
Dinka 0.2

.

distance%=3.7594

BedouinB

Levant-BA 77.4
Natufian 19.4
Dinka 3.2

As for the Natufians themselves, we've had a very small number craniometrically analyzed and, if memory serves me correctly, they looked sorta like some interesting intermediate between certain Upper-Paleolithic Europeans and African populations with a so-called Negroid cranioform:


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E9kP6RhjaQQ/V6mFFq3347I/AAAAAAAAFOc/LUTQQZrcKBsVWYR-UF4JfTL_aA6zxbkuQCPcB/s1600/y0.png

source (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/)

Just 4 samples, though. I expect perhaps more variety (or even contradictions?) as we get more samples someday and Drobbah's right that they wouldn't be remotely as pale skinned as modern Negevians if the genetic evidence has anything to say about it. At any rate, I really wouldn't close my eyes and picture Bedouins... :P

Agamemnon
06-28-2018, 11:20 AM
I think many here make the mistake of assuming that all the Natufian-like ancestry is of Paleolithic Levantine provenance, in fact we should expect at least a fair chunk of it to have arrived from NE Africa. And yeah, it's not as if present-day Bedouins are unadulterated descendants of the Natufians, you merely need to look at their Y-DNA frequencies to understand that this isn't the case.

Awale
06-28-2018, 11:35 AM
I think many here make the mistake of assuming that all the Natufian-like ancestry is of Paleolithic Levantine provenance, in fact we should expect at least a fair chunk of it to have arrived from NE Africa. And yeah, it's not as if present-day Bedouins are unadulterated descendants of the Natufians, you merely need to look at their Y-DNA frequencies to understand that this isn't the case.

My man! Yes, I was thinking about gene-flow from Egypt into those Bedouins too. To be honest, I wouldn't surprised if Horners' Natufian-like ancestry is actually just something like Neolithic Egyptian ancestry that somehow didn't look craniofacially similar to earlier Levant HGs but still, mostly, looked very similar to them in terms of their auDNA profile due maybe being some sort of mixture between Levantine Neolithic folks (Natufian + Anatolian-Neolithic) and an earlier NE African group with far more basal (like those Iberomaurusians) so they look genetically Natufian but aren't remotely the same thing in phenotype.

Needless to say, folks are wasting their time trying to reconstruct the phenotypes of groups from the Epipaleolithic and earlier using what modern groups show the most ancestry like them.

Baws
06-28-2018, 11:48 AM
Also, when i look at Spanish actress Inma Questa, i always associate this look with Southern Levantine Farmers. Probably, your average Natufian girl would look something like this. Gracile Med look.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Union+de+Actores+Awards+2010+Press+Conference+kj1Z 1AtKlR4x.jpg

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
06-28-2018, 12:10 PM
deleted

beyoku
06-28-2018, 12:47 PM
I dont know enough about Near/Middle Eastern prehistory to make a guesstimate.
I do have a question though..what type of climate would Natufian and their indigenous ancestors be adapted to over 10's of thousands of years?
-Not their North East African Sahara/Savanah/Tropic adapted ancestors.
-Not their colder adapted Caucaus, Anatolian, or Iranian ancestors either.

What about the core ecology in the Levant over time, i have no idea if its similar to NE Africa....haven't done the research.

IronHorse
06-28-2018, 01:52 PM
https://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/16360/field_highwire_adjunct_files/3/059311-4.xlsx

This is a Fst table of West Eurasians, modern and ancient, Natufians are very extreme, the lowest Fst with Natufians is with BedouinA, Yemenite Jews, and Saudis, and is 0.073.

The Levant Neolithic is less extreme than the Natufians, Fst with BedouinA for example is 0.026, compared to others this is one of the closest, but I guess that can't be helpful in inferring their phenotype, because pairwise Fst of BedouinA and English is 0.017. No one can accept that these two populations look alike.

What I'm trying to say is: you can't infer the Natufians phenotype based on modern populations, people mixed too much and Natufians are buried in our genes among many others.

Ignis90
06-29-2018, 01:35 PM
Pleistocene human groups were quite different from each other and often had features that are no longer part of contemporary human variation in a given region (thick brow ridges, massive complex teeth or high rates of prognatism for instance).
The Neolithic revolution and the "mongrelization" that followed made vast expanses of territory quite homogenous, so we lost diversity both genetically and in terms of appearance. As Awale pointed out, it's illustrated in the so-called "caucasoid" facial features, which you can find from Siberia to Tanzania and from the strait of Gibraltar to Bengladesh, so even in populations that are predominantly non-West Eurasian genetically.

I personally think Natufians didn't look like any modern pops and might even have been a heterogeneous group to begin with. And as Agamemnon said, some of the Natufian-like ancestry in the Middle East is most likely from Egypt so not Natufian proper.

Baws
06-29-2018, 01:56 PM
Neolithic Revolution brought clinal changes. I don't believe the changes were so dramatic in phenotype. It's uncanny.

Also, we can probably model the Natufians as a mixture of Mushabian North Africans that brought E1b1b and Basal Eurasian and a unknown hunter gatherer component.

Missouri1455
08-12-2018, 02:39 PM
Natufians would have had basal eurasian features with a darker pigmentation similar to the lady below; i've been trying to look for an egyptian nubain who resembles the lady below with much purer input but couldn't find her
25222
25223

beyoku
08-13-2018, 04:41 PM
Wait...why is this is the Africa sub forum.

kawhi
08-14-2018, 04:47 PM
Wait...why is this is the Africa sub forum.

you should ask the OP.

vettor
08-14-2018, 05:15 PM
I think some are mixing the time line of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

with

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B

and merging it into one body of people.

as per Laz 2016 paper
in which these "late Natufian" breakdown on average is
Neolithic Anatolia/Southeast Europe: 56.82%, Paleolithic Levant (Natufians): 24.09%, Caucasus Hunter / Early European Farmer: 12.51%
Evidence of a northerly origin for this mixed population, possibly indicating an influx from the region of northeastern Anatolia.
Natufians have been found to belong mostly to the E1b1b1b2 lineage – which is found among 60% of the whole PPNB population.


in regards to egyptian body colour of people on their walls, one needs to say,......... are they correct because the Libyans where always painted as white people