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View Full Version : Do specific known areas of England show as Celtic or French?



euromutt
06-26-2018, 03:49 PM
I had originally posted this in the AncestryDNA thread but I think it's more relevant over here, could anyone give me some insight on this?


"My mother is (according to paper trail) 25% English, which puts me and my sister each at about 12.5%. (She's 75% French for reference on results ) What I'm curious about is if different areas of England tend to show up as other regions in Ancestry's test. I myself seem to show pretty little, my sister shows more but hers along with my mom's show as Ireland/Scotland/Wales. I'm not sure if mine are falling into Europe West for me, but I'm curious if anyone else with known ancestry in the same parts of England has their English DNA show up somewhere else?

My sister and I are 50% Italian from my Dad so I didn't put the rest of our results, I figured they had no bearing on this, correct me if I'm wrong.

Me:
Europe West: 29%
Ireland/Scotland/Wales: 5%
Great Britain: 2%

Sister:
Ireland/Scotland/Wales: 16%
Europe West: 11%
Great Britain: <1%

Mom:
Europe West: 48%
Ireland/Scotland/Wales: 19%
Great Britain: 4%

My mom's results are odd since she only shows 48% Europe West but she's got a ton of trace regions which I'm sure will disappear with the update. That aside, mine and my sister's amounts are super different, I know we probably inherited different amounts which accounts for that, but what surprises me most is the tiny amount of Great Britain for all of us. My mom's English family comes from about 50% Cambridgeshire, 25% Yorkshire, and 25% Lancashire. I wonder if the Ireland/Scotland/Wales for us is a bit like how everyone seems to get crazy amounts of Scandinavian on their results....

I suppose I'm most interested to know if other people with English DNA with these specific areas show as something else or if this is a weird trait of AncestryDNA.
Thoughts or anyone have something similar?"

euromutt
06-26-2018, 04:00 PM
One theory I've come up with is that the one line I can't find any trace of prior to 1880 is originally from Wales which would account for the Ireland/Scotland/Wales DNA, but I can't find any proof of this as the earliest record is their marriage certificate which doesn't list his father, but his surname was Wynn. ::shrug::

JonikW
06-26-2018, 06:18 PM
One theory I've come up with is that the one line I can't find any trace of prior to 1880 is originally from Wales which would account for the Ireland/Scotland/Wales DNA, but I can't find any proof of this as the earliest record is their marriage certificate which doesn't list his father, but his surname was Wynn. ::shrug::

Well, Wynn is a Welsh name as you probably know. I've never tested on Ancestry but my uncle did and it wasn't as accurate as tests his brothers had done at 23andme and Living DNA. Ancestry missed his Welsh entirely, and his mother (my grandmother) was a Lewis from Breconshire. Living DNA picked that up for my Dad. Of course 23andme doesn't provide a breakdown but the results there for all of us stand up to scrutiny. If Ancestry allows you to download your raw data I would pay a few dollars for Lucasz's k36 results on the autosomal section of this site. Otherwise I would test elsewhere if you want an accurate picture.

euromutt
06-26-2018, 07:35 PM
Well, Wynn is a Welsh name as you probably know. I've never tested on Ancestry but my uncle did and it wasn't as accurate as tests his brothers had done at 23andme and Living DNA. Ancestry missed his Welsh entirely, and his mother (my grandmother) was a Lewis from Breconshire. Living DNA picked that up for my Dad. Of course 23andme doesn't provide a breakdown but the results there for all of us stand up to scrutiny. If Ancestry allows you to download your raw data I would pay a few dollars for Lucasz's k36 results on the autosomal section of this site. Otherwise I would test elsewhere if you want an accurate picture.

Have you done any of the other tests on yourself?
I'm waiting on my results from LivingDNA, because this was the specific area I wanted to dive into more deeply than I've been able to on my other areas of ancestry. I'm hoping it may either corroborate my thoughts on Welsh ancestry, or at least place me where I know we are from in England. I guess we'll see on that front. On the surface it does seem like it would explain the amount going to Ireland/Scotland/Wales for all of us.

If it doesn't confirm it though, I'm back to square one on wondering why the areas of England I'm from are reading as more Celtic.

Saetro
06-26-2018, 08:07 PM
I had originally posted this in the AncestryDNA thread but I think it's more relevant over here, could anyone give me some insight on this?

"My mother is (according to paper trail) 25% English,
Mom:
Europe West: 48%
Ireland/Scotland/Wales: 19%
Great Britain: 4%

My mom's results are odd since she only shows 48% Europe West but she's got a ton of trace regions which I'm sure will disappear with the update. That aside, mine and my sister's amounts are super different, I know we probably inherited different amounts which accounts for that, but what surprises me most is the tiny amount of Great Britain for all of us. My mom's English family comes from about 50% Cambridgeshire, 25% Yorkshire, and 25% Lancashire. I wonder if the Ireland/Scotland/Wales for us is a bit like how everyone seems to get crazy amounts of Scandinavian on their results....

I suppose I'm most interested to know if other people with English DNA with these specific areas show as something else or if this is a weird trait of AncestryDNA.
Thoughts or anyone have something similar?"

Your mother has ZERO Irish/Scottish/Welsh in her paper ancestry, but you are coming up with 19% for her.
So is there some Celtic in England? Yes, there is.
Does AncestryDNA show this? Ah, that is a different question.

I do know that people with real Celtic - Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Cornish - are showing up as Irish/Scottish/Welsh in the latest AncestryDNA ethnicity estimates.
A variety of studies over the years has shown that there is substantial Celtic background in Britain.
Anywhere from around 35% to 75%, depending on the area.
So far, there have not been sufficient responses on the matter of your question from the latest algorithm to work out whether AncestryDNA is picking some of that up.
The responses suggest mostly not - that they are trying to estimate where people's ancestors were, more around 1750 than 500AD.

I have the other problem. My Scottish is not being picked up at all.
But then I am assuming that some Scottish markers were handed down to me.
They may not have made it that far.

Thus far, responses to the new algorithm suggest that way back, your mother had some Celtic.
Too early to say if that is just general background.
And there is the point that Lancashire is close to Cumbria which had substantial Celtic, and not far from Galloway, which had more.
And many Scots came south to cotton mills or mines for work from the late 1700s to mid 1800s.
And Welsh moved east for work also.

And that "Wynn" is Welsh isn't it?

JonikW
06-26-2018, 08:21 PM
Have you done any of the other tests on yourself?
I'm waiting on my results from LivingDNA, because this was the specific area I wanted to dive into more deeply than I've been able to on my other areas of ancestry. I'm hoping it may either corroborate my thoughts on Welsh ancestry, or at least place me where I know we are from in England. I guess we'll see on that front. On the surface it does seem like it would explain the amount going to Ireland/Scotland/Wales for all of us.

If it doesn't confirm it though, I'm back to square one on wondering why the areas of England I'm from are reading as more Celtic.

I've done 23andme and Living DNA as well as Lucasz's report. You can see the Living DNA results in my signature. I'm very pleased with all of them. I also transferred my 23andme file to FTDNA and their results looked reasonable too. The main thing is they were all consistent. I think you've made a good choice with Living DNA. EDIT: I also did the now-defunct Britain's DNA. That was very good too and provided some PCA charts so you could see where you plotted within Europe etc.

euromutt
06-26-2018, 09:59 PM
Your mother has ZERO Irish/Scottish/Welsh in her paper ancestry, but you are coming up with 19% for her.
So is there some Celtic in England? Yes, there is.
Does AncestryDNA show this? Ah, that is a different question.

I do know that people with real Celtic - Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Cornish - are showing up as Irish/Scottish/Welsh in the latest AncestryDNA ethnicity estimates.
A variety of studies over the years has shown that there is substantial Celtic background in Britain.
Anywhere from around 35% to 75%, depending on the area.
So far, there have not been sufficient responses on the matter of your question from the latest algorithm to work out whether AncestryDNA is picking some of that up.
The responses suggest mostly not - that they are trying to estimate where people's ancestors were, more around 1750 than 500AD.

I have the other problem. My Scottish is not being picked up at all.
But then I am assuming that some Scottish markers were handed down to me.
They may not have made it that far.

Thus far, responses to the new algorithm suggest that way back, your mother had some Celtic.
Too early to say if that is just general background.
And there is the point that Lancashire is close to Cumbria which had substantial Celtic, and not far from Galloway, which had more.
And many Scots came south to cotton mills or mines for work from the late 1700s to mid 1800s.
And Welsh moved east for work also.

And that "Wynn" is Welsh isn't it?

Well the Wynn line is the one that only goes back to England in 1880 but no further. My 3rd ggrandfather is Wynn; his wife is a definite English line. If theyíre both actually English, I theoretically maintain my 12.5% English via paper trail. If not, it would make it 9.75% English and 3.25% Welsh (forgive me if my decimals are wrong) however Iím not sure that would be enough to tilt it all so Celtic.

My thought is that if the update for Ancestry (whenever that actually happens) changes all of my current Ireland/Scotland/Wales to England and Wales and we no longer have Irish or Scottish maybe it does support my theory thatís heís Welsh. But like I said, is that really the explanation for my mom being 19%?

Surname wise, Wynn is Welsh, Iím just not sure how recently Welsh my line is if at all from him. Or if itís just the ancient DNA showing Celtic from all of their lines (despite being from different regions?)

euromutt
06-26-2018, 10:07 PM
I've done 23andme and Living DNA as well as Lucasz's report. You can see the Living DNA results in my signature. I'm very pleased with all of them. I also transferred my 23andme file to FTDNA and their results looked reasonable too. The main thing is they were all consistent. I think you've made a good choice with Living DNA. EDIT: I also did the now-defunct Britain's DNA. That was very good too and provided some PCA charts so you could see where you plotted within Europe etc.

I don’t know why I never think to look at signatures before I ask that.
I wish I’d gotten into geneology before Britain’s DNA stopped testing, I’ve got considerable amounts of info on my French line and my dads DNA leaves no question on our Italian, but this English line is driving me mad because this man seemed like he didn’t exist prior to his wedding. I’m hoping I luck out and my LivingDNA results are early like most others seem to be.

I had uploaded my Ancestry raw dna to FTDNA and it gave me 27% British Isles.

msmarjoribanks
06-26-2018, 10:56 PM
How well do you know the English lines -- if 25% of your mom's ancestry, are these relatives who came to the US more recently (like second half of the 1800s or after)? If so, they could have moved around in the British Isles also, as Saetro indicated. I see this in my own family some (sister of an ancestor married a man who moved to the London area from Scotland in the late 1700s, other ancestors moved from rural Shropshire to various towns in the Midlands and in some cases (including my direct ancestor) to the London area). My most recent ancestor to come to the US came from Kent, but his family was new to Kent. Is it only the Wynn who is a mystery?

Paul333
06-26-2018, 11:38 PM
As Saetro, has stated the North West of England, has a lot of Celtic, ie Cumbria, derived from the same 'native Cymru' as the people of Wales. old Cumbrian and old Welsh are stated as related languages, and the area is a mix of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norse, so it is possible some Celtic,given as of Irish/Scottish/Welsh, may in fact correctly trace back to this area of England.

euromutt
06-27-2018, 12:14 AM
How well do you know the English lines -- if 25% of your mom's ancestry, are these relatives who came to the US more recently (like second half of the 1800s or after)? If so, they could have moved around in the British Isles also, as Saetro indicated. I see this in my own family some (sister of an ancestor married a man who moved to the London area from Scotland in the late 1700s, other ancestors moved from rural Shropshire to various towns in the Midlands and in some cases (including my direct ancestor) to the London area). My most recent ancestor to come to the US came from Kent, but his family was new to Kent. Is it only the Wynn who is a mystery?

Her English side didn’t come to the US until the 1920s. I’ve managed to trace probably 50% back to 1750-1770, 20% to 1700 and 20% to 1500-1650. The most recent were from Cambridgeshire and Lancashire, which I can’t trace beyond 1800.

Also, it seems I mispoke in my first post, it’s closer to 50% from Yorkshire and 25% being Lancashire and 25% Cambridgeshire.

Wynn is the main mystery, I’ve got plenty of hints for the lines that go back to early 1800, I’m just not certain enough to know which is correct, but they all are still in Cambridgeshire.

euromutt
06-27-2018, 12:19 AM
As Saetro, has stated the North West of England, has a lot of Celtic, ie Cumbria, derived from the same 'native Cymru' as the people of Wales. old Cumbrian and old Welsh are stated as related languages, and the area is a mix of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norse, so it is possible some Celtic,given as of Irish/Scottish/Welsh, may in fact correctly trace back to this area of England.

That would definitely more scientifically explain the Celtic DNA over 1 mysterious Welsh line. At least it would account for more.

Molfish
06-27-2018, 03:09 AM
Her English side didn’t come to the US until the 1920s. I’ve managed to trace probably 50% back to 1750-1770, 20% to 1700 and 20% to 1500-1650. The most recent were from Cambridgeshire and Lancashire, which I can’t trace beyond 1800.

Also, it seems I mispoke in my first post, it’s closer to 50% from Yorkshire and 25% being Lancashire and 25% Cambridgeshire.

Wynn is the main mystery, I’ve got plenty of hints for the lines that go back to early 1800, I’m just not certain enough to know which is correct, but they all are still in Cambridgeshire.
I have the name Wynne in my family, on the Irish side, and likewise don't know how recently it came from Wales, or from what part.

JonikW
06-27-2018, 07:01 AM
I agree with previous posts here re Cumbria etc as well as movements into England. I have an Armstrong ancestor myself who was living in London but listed Scotland as his place of birth. I assume he was from the borders. Talking of which, I'd highly recommend a book called The Borders by Rory Stewart for anyone who's interested in place and identity, particularly regarding Scotland, England, the Welsh kingdoms in the north and the Vikings. It's thought-provoking and a delight to read.

euromutt
06-27-2018, 02:10 PM
I agree with previous posts here re Cumbria etc as well as movements into England. I have an Armstrong ancestor myself who was living in London but listed Scotland as his place of birth. I assume he was from the borders. Talking of which, I'd highly recommend a book called The Borders by Rory Stewart for anyone who's interested in place and identity, particularly regarding Scotland, England, the Welsh kingdoms in the north and the Vikings. It's thought-provoking and a delight to read.

I think it's frustrating because I probably won't ever know the reasoning. Unless more records are discovered and released that I can go further back with, or I magically find out where Wynn was before his damn wedding day, the brick walls are frustrating.

I'll definitely check out that book though, thank you for the recommendation!

Phoebe Watts
06-27-2018, 03:48 PM
On the likely source of the name Wynn(e). It is indeed Welsh - an adjectival surname from North Wales. It might help you to know that it is most common in Denbighshire and Meirionnydd but not particularly common in those counties either. These adjectival surnames survived better outside Wales, so don't rule out a border family. Bear in mind that it was also a name favoured by gentry families.

A C17th uncle of mine left Wales for Oxford and London. He adopted the surname Wynne - whilst his sibling retained his patronymic.

euromutt
06-28-2018, 08:14 PM
On the likely source of the name Wynn(e). It is indeed Welsh - an adjectival surname from North Wales. It might help you to know that it is most common in Denbighshire and Meirionnydd but not particularly common in those counties either. These adjectival surnames survived better outside Wales, so don't rule out a border family. Bear in mind that it was also a name favoured by gentry families.

A C17th uncle of mine left Wales for Oxford and London. He adopted the surname Wynne - whilst his sibling retained his patronymic.

I went back through my tree, and I do have one Welsh line, originating in Denbighshire actually. It is a different line than the Wynn one, I can't believe I completely forgot it was there! I suppose part of the celtic mystery is solved.

euromutt
06-28-2018, 08:19 PM
I actually got my LivingDNA results back today (2 months early!) If anyone would like to take a glance and see if the celtic lean seems to go along with my regions, or it Ancestry is off their rocker. :P

Complete
Lincolnshire 8.7%
Devon 6.6%
Northwest England 6.2%
Cornwall 5.2%
Central England 3.6%
Southeast England 3.1%
Aberdeenshire 2.2%
South Yorkshire 1.9%
East Anglia 1.5%
North Wales 1.4%
Cumbria 1.4%
South England 1.2%
Ireland 1.2%
North Yorkshire 1%
Northumbria 1%

Standard
Lincolnshire 8.7%
Devon 6.6%
Northwest England 6.6%
Cornwall 5.2%
Central England 3.6%
Southeast England 3.1%
Aberdeenshire 2.2%
South Yorkshire 1.9%
East Anglia 1.5%
Cumbria 1.4%
South England 1.2%
Ireland 1.2%
Northumbria 1%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 2.4%


Cautious
Lincolnshire-related ancestry 20.3%
Devon-related ancestry 16.1%
Aberdeenshire-related ancestry 3.4%
Cumbria-related ancestry 2.4%
East Anglia 1.5%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 2.4%


I know it was said that Cumbria had a tendency for celtic DNA and I believe Aberdeenshire being in Scotland would to, yeah? Those stuck out to me since they remained even in cautious mode, Devon as well.

JonikW
06-28-2018, 08:49 PM
Wow, an amazing mix with plenty of Celtic to ponder. I believe the Cumbria region goes into southern Scotland. I think that's where my Armstrong line went. I got no North Wales so that seems to tie in with Phoebe's post. My father had a small amount so I guess someone once travelled from there to Breconshire but didn't get as far as me. You've got a great spread of Isles ancestry there.

Amerijoe
06-28-2018, 09:33 PM
euromutt, your results add up to less than 50%. Please recheck. Should add up to 100%. Here are mine.

Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 94.3%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 38.9%
Ireland14.7%
Aberdeenshire 8%
Lincolnshire 6.3%
Southeast England 6.2%
Cornwall 5.2%
Northwest Scotland 3.7%
North Yorkshire 3%
Devon 2.6%
South Wales 1.6%
South Yorkshire 1.4%
Cumbria 1.4%
Orkney 1.2%
Europe (North and West) 4.6%
Scandinavia 4.6%
Near East 1.1%
Kurdish 1.1%

euromutt
06-28-2018, 10:06 PM
euromutt, your results add up to less than 50%. Please recheck. Should add up to 100%. Here are mine.

Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 94.3%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 38.9%
Ireland14.7%
Aberdeenshire 8%
Lincolnshire 6.3%
Southeast England 6.2%
Cornwall 5.2%
Northwest Scotland 3.7%
North Yorkshire 3%
Devon 2.6%
South Wales 1.6%
South Yorkshire 1.4%
Cumbria 1.4%
Orkney 1.2%
Europe (North and West) 4.6%
Scandinavia 4.6%
Near East 1.1%
Kurdish 1.1%

Correct, I didn’t put my Italian, French or Near East components as they don’t seem relevant to the Celtic swing of my ancestry dna. Here they are though if you’d like to see them.

Complete
Europe (South) 42.6%
South Italy 18.4%
North Italy 12.4%
Tuscany 7%
Iberian Peninsula 2.5%
Aegean 2.3%

Europe (North and West) 6.7%
France 6.7%

Near East 4.6%
Kurdish 1.7%
North Turkey 1.7%
Iran 1.1%

Standard
Europe (South) 40%
South Italy 18.4%
North Italy 12.4%
Tuscany 7%
Aegean 2.3%

Europe (North and West) 6.7%
France 6.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.5%

Near East 4.6%
Kurdish 1.7%
North Turkey 1.7%
Iran 1.1

Cautious
South Italy-related ancestry 27.7%
Pannonian Cluster-related ancestry 12.4%
Northwestern Europe-related ancestry 6.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.5%
Armenia and Cyprus-related ancestry 2.8%
Kurdish-related ancestry 1.7%

Dewsloth
06-28-2018, 10:26 PM
Correct, I didn’t put my Italian, French or Near East components as they don’t seem relevant to the Celtic swing of my ancestry dna. Here they are though if you’d like to see them.

Complete
Europe (South) 42.6%
South Italy 18.4%
North Italy 12.4%
Tuscany 7%
Iberian Peninsula 2.5%
Aegean 2.3%

Europe (North and West) 6.7%
France 6.7%

Near East 4.6%
Kurdish 1.7%
North Turkey 1.7%
Iran 1.1%

Standard
Europe (South) 40%
South Italy 18.4%
North Italy 12.4%
Tuscany 7%
Aegean 2.3%

Europe (North and West) 6.7%
France 6.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.5%

Near East 4.6%
Kurdish 1.7%
North Turkey 1.7%
Iran 1.1

Cautious
South Italy-related ancestry 27.7%
Pannonian Cluster-related ancestry 12.4%
Northwestern Europe-related ancestry 6.7%
Europe (unassigned) 2.5%
Armenia and Cyprus-related ancestry 2.8%
Kurdish-related ancestry 1.7%

With LivingDNA you never know! ;)

They have never updated my dad's results, which should show equal amounts of German and British Isles (plus about 18% total Ashkenazi and Belgian):

Europe 100%
Great Britain and Ireland 71.1%
Southeast England 20.6%
East Anglia 13.6%
Lincolnshire 12.2%
South Central England 9.5%
South Yorkshire 4.7%
Cumbria 2.4%
Northwest Scotland 2.4%
Devon 2.3%
Cornwall 2.2%
North Yorkshire 1.2%

Europe (South) 14.3%
North Italy 11.1%
Aegean 3.2%

Europe (North and West) 8.2%
Scandinavia 8.2%

Europe (East) 6.4%
West Balkans 2.6%
East Balkans 2%
Finland and Western Russia 1.8%

His German vs. British and Germanic v. Celtic might both be in similar total proportions, but not coming from the same sources.

euromutt
06-28-2018, 10:38 PM
Wow, an amazing mix with plenty of Celtic to ponder. I believe the Cumbria region goes into southern Scotland. I think that's where my Armstrong line went. I got no North Wales so that seems to tie in with Phoebe's post. My father had a small amount so I guess someone once travelled from there to Breconshire but didn't get as far as me. You've got a great spread of Isles ancestry there.

I was really surprised how varied it came out. I didnít expect nearly as many areas. I know LivingDNA says this should span 10 generations, so Iím surprised especially with the Cumbria and Devon areas staying through the cautious mode. Maybe it is a border instance, Wynnís first record puts him in Lancashire.

euromutt
06-28-2018, 10:40 PM
With LivingDNA you never know! ;)

They have never updated my dad's results, which should show equal amounts of German and British Isles (plus about 18% total Ashkenazi and Belgian):

Europe 100%
Great Britain and Ireland 71.1%
Southeast England 20.6%
East Anglia 13.6%
Lincolnshire 12.2%
South Central England 9.5%
South Yorkshire 4.7%
Cumbria 2.4%
Northwest Scotland 2.4%
Devon 2.3%
Cornwall 2.2%
North Yorkshire 1.2%

Europe (South) 14.3%
North Italy 11.1%
Aegean 3.2%

Europe (North and West) 8.2%
Scandinavia 8.2%

Europe (East) 6.4%
West Balkans 2.6%
East Balkans 2%
Finland and Western Russia 1.8%

His German vs. British and Germanic v. Celtic might both be in similar total proportions, but not coming from the same sources.

If my Italian DNA is influencing a Celtic swing, then Ancestry has more to explain than just why everyone is Scandinavian. :P