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midichlorian
07-05-2018, 03:34 PM
Hey there,

Any idea how this y haplogroup appeared in South Asia? Through what migrations is this one present? Does this indicate that the South Asians that do have this haplogroup are more west Eurasian shifted than their other counterparts who may be of South Asian haplogroup origin or have Steppe haplogroup markings?

bmoney
07-06-2018, 01:01 AM
you should do some background reading but yes its 'West Eurasian' and mainly an old Iran_N related migration as its higher in the W, NW and Southern castes, than East and Central Indo-Aryans who are more R1a shifted and less Iran_N overall.

So I'd say its one of the defining South Asian y-lineages

Quote from a recent paper: indeed, a sizeable fraction of the non-R1a West Eurasian Y-chromosome lineages (e.g. R2a-M124, J2-M241, L1a-M27, L1c-M357) were most likely associated with the spread of agriculture or even earlier expansions from Southwest Asia, as with the mtDNA lineages [55, 59].

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9

The communities below all have the Iran_N genetic component in common:

J2-M172 was found to be significantly higher among Dravidian castes at 19% than among Indo-European castes at 11%. J2-M172 and J-M410 is found 21% among Dravidian middle castes, followed by upper castes, 18.6%, and lower castes 14%.[21] Among caste groups, the highest frequency of J2-M172 was observed among Tamil Vellalar's of South India, at 38.7%.[22] J2 is present in Indian tribals too and has a frequency of 11% in Austro-Asiatic tribals. Among the Austro-Asiatic tribals, the predominant J2 occurs in the Asur tribe (77.5%) albeit with a sample size of 40[23] and in the Lodha (35%) of West Bengal.[24] J2 is also present in the South Indian hill tribe Toda at 38.46% albeit with a sample size of only 26,[25] in the Andh tribe of Telangana at 35.19%,[26] in the Narikuravar tribe at 57.9%[23] and in the Kol tribe of Uttar Pradesh at a frequency of 33.34%.[27] Haplogroup J-P209 was found to be more common in India's Shia Muslims, of which 28.7% belong to haplogroup J, with 13.7% in J-M410, 10.6% in J-M267 and 4.4% in J2b (Eaaswarkhanth 2009).

In Pakistan, the highest frequencies of J2-M172 were observed among the Parsis at 38.89%, the Dravidian speaking Brahui's at 28.18% and the Makrani Balochs at 24%.[28] It also occurs at 18.18% in Makrani Siddis and at 3% in Karnataka Siddis.[28][29]

J2-M172 is found at an overall frequency of 16.1% in the people of Sri Lanka.[30] In Maldives, 22% of Maldivian population were found to be haplogroup J2 positive.[31] Subclades of M172 such as M67 and M92 were not found in either Indian or Pakistani samples which also might hint at a partial common origin.[21]

It could be the case that J2 came with the steppe migration or from the BMAC, but the chances of that are low as it already had a significant presence in South Asia for a long time before that

J1 is a different story altogether and indicative of recent ancestry

Regarding the second part of that question, y-ancestry only corresponds to one of thousands of paternal ancestors and females don't inherit it.

its not informative at an individual level. For example an H1a caste Punjabi will be more West Eurasian shifted than you overall due to autosomal ancestry and a tribal R1a from Central India will be less so.

There could be a H1a Patel whos more West Eurasian shifted than you.

It is informative at the group level though, for example Gedrosian pops have high Iran_N compared to other SAs and similarly they also have higher J2.

The Toda people of tribal Kerala have high J2 prevalence and very different ancestry (much higher Iran Neolithic) to predominantly H1a/F tribals who live next to them (much higher AASI)

bmoney
07-06-2018, 01:27 AM
From the paper you linked earlier:

We found moderate occurrence of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 (08%) in different populations inhabited in different parts of India (Supplementary Table S1). We observed substantial high frequencies of J2a-M410 (1750% in Toda, Chenchu, Banjara, Kamboj, Lohana and Kashmiri Muslims etc.) and J2b-M102 (1535% in Asur, Narikuravar, Pichakuntla, Shikari and Mondi, etc.) in several populations. J2a-M410 is mainly concentrated towards the NW border of India (comprising Gujarat and Rajasthan). However, high frequency and variance of J2a-M410 in PTGs (primitive tribal groups) like Toda (trasitional pastoralists) and Chenchu (hunter-gatherers and foragers) invoke interesting insights. Contrary to earlier belief, predominant presence and high variance of J2a-M410 among remote tribes dismisses any caste-specific distribution of J2a-M410 in India18. We found the distribution of both the clades geographically pronounced. From West Asia, J2a-M410 wave seems to expand West towards South-eastern Europe and East towards Central Asia and eventually to South Asia (Fig. 1a). Dense focal points of J2a-M410 can be seen along the northwest border of South Asia reaching up to South India. However, it shows a drastic decline towards East of India, consistent with our previous study26. Unlike J2a-M410, J2b-M102 is concentrated in Eastern India (Fig. 1b).

Entry point of J2 (and Neolithic Iranians) was the NW, as shown by the highest diversity being there and South India (due to dominance in the South):

In NW and South India we found the highest variance and oldest TMRCA (time of most recent common ancestor) of J2a-M410 haplotypes, whereas in North, West and Central India the TMRCA (Table 1, Supplementary Table S5 and Supplementary Table S6) was comparatively recent. Similar to J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows the oldest TMRCA in NW region and younger TMRCA in Central, southern, northern and eastern India.

Suggests the J2 wave happened when Indo-Aryans and Dravidians were undifferentiated and that AAs received it late:

Among linguistic groups, our results indicate that Indo-Europeans (IE) and Dravidians (DR) have received the J2a-M410 influx approximately at the same time.

However, our results indicate a very late influx and rare presence of the J2a-M410 HG in Austroasiatics (AA). In eastern region, J2b-M102 exhibits few dense focal points in contour map due to high frequency among some AA groups like Asur caused by founder effect. Comparing the TMRCA and diversity of J2b-M102 haplotypes between different linguistic groups (Table 1, Supplementary Table S5 and Supplementary Table S6) suggests that either AA received the gene flow from IE or DR very late or they have lost the diversity due to drift, followed by founder effect. Thus, the distribution of this haplogroup in India is governed primarily by geography. Apart from geographical separation, linguistic affiliation seems to be responsible to shape J2-M172 pool in India. Male effective population sizes for J2a-M410 show rapid expansion when moving from NW region to Gangetic plains while it drops rapidly in Central India and again expands in South India.

Link to IVC and Mehrgarh from where it declines towards the East though remains strong in the South:

The earliest precursor known of Indus Valley civilization, Mehrgarh (NW of Indian subcontinent, now in Pakistan), provides one of the oldest (~9KYA) evidences of origin of agriculture and plant domestication suited by early Holocene climate27. Additionally, these Neolithic sites of Mehrgarh showed the earliest evidence of transformation of subsistence from hunting-gathering to settled agriculture owing to the idea that the first farmers from Indus were agro-pastoral, and semi-nomadic people28. It is interesting to note that the concentration of J2a-M410 over the geography largely mimics the agricultural centres29. J2a-M410 in India peaks at NW region and shows a clinal pattern towards Central and East, however, again rises considerably in South.

Tribals with high J2 such as the Toda came from the NW:

In the present study, we also see high frequency of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 in remote undisturbed foragers with recent history of hunting gathering (eg. Asur, Chenchu), pastorals (eg. Toda tribe with high J2a-M68) and nomadic tribes (eg. Banjara, Bahelia etc). Most of the nomadic tribes were from NW region or had recently migrated from the region towards South India (eg. Narikruwar, Shikari, Mondi, Pichakuntla). Considering these facts and arguments, one can deduce that these groups could be the relic of agro-pastoral communities spreading from the NW region of the subcontinent in the past.

Links from the Near East to the Mehgarh:

Various studies have given evidences to support the influence of Neolithic from Near East on Indian subcontinent (in Mehrgarh) dated around 10.5 KYA 30 and references therein. Noted similarities between Mehrgarh and Near East are domesticated wheat varieties, early phases of farming, pottery, other archaeological artefacts, some domesticated plants and herd animals30. A vast arid region of Iran and Afghanistan lies in between Near East and Indus Valley, leaving possibility of rainfall agriculture only in the foothills and cul-de-sac valleys31. Yet, the area was not an undefeatable geographical barrier for Neolithic spread. Some sections of the Silk Road (route South of the Caspian sea) connecting Badakhshan (north-eastern Afghanistan and south-eastern Tajikistan) with West Asia, Egypt and India were in use by 5 KYA32. Other section of Silk Road connecting Badakhshan to the Mesopotamian plains (the Great Khorasan Road) was in use by 6 KYA31. Archaeological evidences support similarities among widely separated Neolithic sites in these regions33 and plausibility of migration of population34.

Old in the subcontinent (Neolithic) again expanding from the NW and lack of diversity suggests that only a branch of J2 travelled to South Asia. Associated with the appearance of agriculture (IVC and Mehrgarh). Could also be related to later or earlier migrations:

TMRCAs of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 of NW and South India advocate an early arrival of these lineages to Indian subcontinent. Genetic relatedness of NW Indians with population to West from NW border and remarkable presence of J2-M172 HGs in remote Indian tribes along with other social strata, may represent the early Holocene expansion in NW India (including the Indus Valley) diffusing towards Central Asia and spreading agriculture eastwards to the Gangetic plains during pre-Harappan times (6-7 KYA). Complete absence of any paragroup of J clade in India reinforces the established theory of J2 subclades entering into the subcontinent from NW/West to India. Given all that, and granted their exogenous origin, J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 in the subcontinent may reflect any combination of unknown and known movements. Though, the genealogical ages for Indian J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 are correlating with appearance of agriculture in Indus Valley (~6KYA) and Mehrgarh (~9KYA) and falling well within the Neolithic range, differential presence and distribution of J2-M172 sublineages and other associated HGs depict a complex picture. Most likely events responsible for the current distribution of J2-M172 sublineages into Indian subcontinent could be any combination of 1) entry of herders from West and Central Asia/Middle East during late glacial maximum (LGM) of Holocene, 2) Neolithic demic diffusion from the West, and 3) Bronze and Iron age migration/admixtures.

And finally Shahr-I-Sokhta BA3 who you are autosomally nearly identical to, was also J2

tipirneni
07-06-2018, 01:43 AM
Hey there,

Any idea how this y haplogroup appeared in South Asia? Through what migrations is this one present? Does this indicate that the South Asians that do have this haplogroup are more west Eurasian shifted than their other counterparts who may be of South Asian haplogroup origin or have Steppe haplogroup markings?

Do you know which subclade you are under ? M67/M92 under L26 are not common in South Asia, but I see one from Gujarat in Yfull. The L24/25 are mostly west asian/Europe. M241 there are some indians.

http://y-dna-j-m304.gen.or.at/img/J-L26-sub-groups.png

midichlorian
07-06-2018, 03:24 AM
Do you know which subclade you are under ? M67/M92 under L26 are not common in South Asia, but I see one from Gujarat in Yfull. The L24/25 are mostly west asian/Europe. M241 there are some indians.

http://y-dna-j-m304.gen.or.at/img/J-L26-sub-groups.png

Damn... idk beyond my L26 subclade. It's rare in South Asia? Where is it normally found?

tipirneni
07-06-2018, 03:38 AM
Damn... idk beyond my L26 subclade. It's rare in South Asia? Where is it normally found?

I read this research study in Nature some time back https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19157
it talks about detailed Indian J2a https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/srep/2016/160112/srep19157/extref/srep19157-s1.xls
mostly under M410
M47/M68/Z2396

BMG
07-21-2018, 04:06 PM
Hi midichlorian , my maternal grandmother's side is J-L26 who is a Christian from Kerala . Her family has tested through Geno 2.0 years back . So I know she is negative for M47,M68,and L24 as those snps were tested by Geno 2.0 . I guess she will be possibly under PF5197 subclade .

parasar
07-21-2018, 04:41 PM
Damn... idk beyond my L26 subclade. It's rare in South Asia? Where is it normally found?


Some of the earliest splits of M410 and downstream L26 are in South Asia:
http://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/12/1kG.treeG_.J2a.node_.dependent.cladogram_rev3.png

midichlorian
07-21-2018, 11:23 PM
Hi midichlorian , my maternal grandmother's side is J-L26 who is a Christian from Kerala . Her family has tested through Geno 2.0 years back . So I know she is negative for M47,M68,and L24 as those snps were tested by Geno 2.0 . I guess she will be possibly under PF5197 subclade .

That's interesting because I continue to receive a Kerala-Brahmin or something similar in my GEDMatches.

BMG
07-22-2018, 08:33 AM
That's interesting because I continue to receive a Kerala-Brahmin or something similar in my GEDMatches.
Most of the J2a in Kerala is L24 and some M68 and very few are negative for both . From your harappa results you seem to be similar to non-brahmin south Indian but a little more south shifted to Kerala Nairs and Kerala Syrian Christians