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View Full Version : The position, and the relative prominence, of DF27 within P312



razyn
07-15-2018, 11:44 PM
This has been discussed on several threads, some of which are not DF27 threads as such, and may easily be overlooked by newer members who have only recently heard that they are DF27+.

I'd like to begin with some of the ZZ series of SNPs, discovered or first described by Alex Williamson. He is responsible for the "Big Tree," found at www.ytree.net Although these SNPs are not universally accepted (and are therefore missing from a few prominent haplotrees), most of us who have administered haplogroup projects for subclades of R1b-P312 have found them very useful for sorting our multitude of newly discovered Y-SNPs into something that looks like a tree diagram.

Just as background information, Alex's public announcement of initial examples of his ZZ series was posted to a Yahoo group on Oct. 7, 2014. I'll insert the link, in case eligible Yahoo members want to look at it. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-DF27-Project/conversations/messages/1986?guccounter=2

A minor sensation was caused by discovery that our relatively young DF27 project was a brother (below ZZ11) to the relatively old U152 project. To the extent that this closer relationship has been discussed at all, much of the conversation has happened on the U152 forum. And some has been on much broader threads, about R1b in general; or its more ancient or "basal" clades; or ancient nuclear DNA sequencing (to include the elusive Y chromosome), as that has gradually been reported in academic studies of the past 3-4 years.

The much more current news (that has prompted me to start this thread) is that FTDNA's DF27 project has overtaken its brother U152 in the number of members. This happened on July 11, 2018. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10837-FTDNA-U152-Project-Closing-in-on-2000-members&p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

Since a larger percentage of our DF27 members have been ordering BigY tests, we had already passed U152 in the number of known, downstream branches, some time ago. There are some other recent SNP discoveries upstream, not all beginning with ZZ. I'll paste in several screen shots of the current state of Alex's Big Tree, to show our position on it. The first one may be un-readably small, since I had to shrink the font size to get it all on my screen so I could capture the image. That doesn't really matter -- the part I want to focus on will appear larger. Here is the whole P312 branch:

24649

We are in the lower left part of that screen. Next will be the part of the tree that includes DF27, its "brother" U152, and their close "cousins" DF99 and ZZ37 -- but this screen will not include the huge L21 part of the tree (hiding on the right, in the previous picture, below the less often discussed Z290); nor DF19, L238 and a few other branches that appear, so far, to be smaller. All of the following screen falls below a SNP called Z40481 (really an STR mutation -- an indel that can be considered a SNP, in that the P312 tree divided when it occurred). ZZ11 is a very large clade below Z40481, but ZZ11 had been discovered earlier:

24650

Applying the zoom lens once more (to the same basic Big Tree display), the last screen will only include ZZ11 with its two most successful sons, U152 and DF27. If you were actually connected online to the Big Tree, you could click on the lead SNP in any of the displayed boxes, taking you to an informative page about that SNP (and any equivalents in the same box), its age, siblings, descendants, etc. There is an option of displaying "all the men in this subclade" or words to that effect. Normally, I only look at DF27. But backing out all the way to DF27's "grandfather" Z40481, it becomes apparent that we have unlocked more branches of DF27 than all the rest of the clades below Z40481, combined. At the moment, in the fully expanded format Z40481 lines up almost directly above L165 -- a major subclade of Z198, below Z195. However, CTS4188 (another subclade of Z198) is to the left; I believe that wraps up the DF27 side. Farther to the left of center is all of U152. Also all of DF99, and all of ZZ37. To the right of center, however, lies most of Z195. And to the right of that lies all of ZZ12 (shorthand for "anything below DF27 that isn't below Z195"). The wide ZZ12 side of DF27 has more branches than Z195, and many of them are poorly understood -- as we have only discovered these branches in the past five years, typically much less than that. Here is our ZZ11 brotherhood:

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I hope somebody finds this framework useful. Note that farther up the tree is by definition farther back in time. We may still have some of the mutations' dates poorly estimated -- I think some of the higher levels are older than this tree suggests. But their relative ages, as displayed, are genetically necessary.

kraken70
07-17-2018, 08:36 AM
Thank you for this update of DF27's Topic.
It looks like the "kid" has become 'The' cluster of P312 !
I'm in process of Pack Analysis with Yseq but nothing's showed up till now. Some few Hg have still to come out but I fear that no more snp won't be identified this time.
Now things are promising for DF27 and it'll necessarly drive us to reconsider in deep this part of the Y Tree.

TigerMW
07-18-2018, 08:24 PM
Thank you for this update of DF27's Topic.
It looks like the "kid" has become 'The' cluster of P312 !
I'm in process of Pack Analysis with Yseq but nothing's showed up till now. Some few Hg have still to come out but I fear that no more snp won't be identified this time.
Now things are promising for DF27 and it'll necessarly drive us to reconsider in deep this part of the Y Tree.

DF27 requires much more in the way of exploration (SNP and branching discovery). Please consider Big Y. Even if you don't find a more youthful SNP under ZZ12 you have set up your branch to be be fully discovered.

GASKA
07-24-2018, 07:41 PM
Thank you for this update of DF27's Topic.
It looks like the "kid" has become 'The' cluster of P312 !
I'm in process of Pack Analysis with Yseq but nothing's showed up till now. Some few Hg have still to come out but I fear that no more snp won't be identified this time.
Now things are promising for DF27 and it'll necessarly drive us to reconsider in deep this part of the Y Tree.

Un saludo Kraken, nice flags

kraken70
08-01-2018, 11:24 AM
Maybe I'll consider Big Y in future times.
I know you're eager of datas from Belgium and Northern France.
By now my wife argues me that Prio#1 for our money is holidays ! :)

Un saludo igualmente !
Those flags are displayed to illustrate my paternal family legend that we are descendants
of a Spanish soldier who served in the Tercios of Flanders.