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Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 12:44 AM
To give some perspective on "Bollywood" or "Hindified" urban Punjabi vs. "real" rural Punjabi, my mom is 100% fluent in Punjabi and cannot understand Bollywood Hindi much in movies. She needs the subtitles. However, an old Marathi acquaintance of mine who was fluent in Hindi could completely understood some Urdu speaking Karachite friends of mine. However, I could only get a gist of their conversations.

A lot of bollywood is urdu. This is a carry over of the days when Lahore was the hub of all cultural activity,prior to the Partition. Although there is a lot less of urdu in films now than it used to be four decades ago.

poi
12-02-2018, 12:54 AM
A lot of bollywood is urdu. This is a carry over of the days when Lahore was the hub of all cultural activity,prior to the Partition. Although there is a lot less of urdu in films now than it used to be four decades ago.

After the India-Pakistan partition, I'm sure there were political/cultural/religious forces on both sides to "purify" the respective languages, since Urdu became the official language in Pakistan and Hindi the de-facto national language. I don't know much about Urdu's history, but it is clear that extreme Sanskritization of Hindi in India, primarily in the 80s and the 90s(effect of the TV epics like the Ramayan and Mahabharat being the catalyst), resulted in discarding of a lot of Perso-Turko-Arabic words from centuries of Muslim rule. And replacing them with straight-from-the-bronze-and-iron-age Sanskrit words. Politicians from UP and Bihar converse almost exclusively in Shudh Hindi. The effect percolated into neighboring regions as well. Now, you hear well over 50% straight-up Sanskrit words in the Gangetic plains.

pnb123
12-02-2018, 01:32 AM
I wonder if pnb can find a Nepali who looks like me

@pnb

Lol, maybe like the 1st guy, or maybe little bit of these three guys:


27410
27411
27412

pnb123
12-02-2018, 01:35 AM
@pnb

Can you find pics of “Jatt Sikh” looking Bahuns. I’d be curious. Someone like Elly Mangat or Karan Aujla.

Lol these peeps maybe:


27413
27414
27415
27416

These are actors, first one likely Bahun, 2nd one is Chhetri:
27417
http://www.cybernepal.com.np/graphics/event/world_premiere_-_shanti_lukaun_kahan/world_premiere_-_shanti_lukaun_kahan_1685902805.jpg

poi
12-02-2018, 01:39 AM
PLEASE don't close or lock this thread. For pnb's sake!! We need the pics!!

Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 01:59 AM
After the India-Pakistan partition, I'm sure there were political/cultural/religious forces on both sides to "purify" the respective languages, since Urdu became the official language in Pakistan and Hindi the de-facto national language. I don't know much about Urdu's history, but it is clear that extreme Sanskritization of Hindi in India, primarily in the 80s and the 90s(effect of the TV epics like the Ramayan and Mahabharat being the catalyst), resulted in discarding of a lot of Perso-Turko-Arabic words from centuries of Muslim rule. And replacing them with straight-from-the-bronze-and-iron-age Sanskrit words. Politicians from UP and Bihar converse almost exclusively in Shudh Hindi. The effect percolated into neighboring regions as well. Now, you hear well over 50% straight-up Sanskrit words in the Gangetic plains.

The problem, from my perspective is that after the Partition, a lot of Punjabis, who were settled in places distant from Punjab, began to lose their touch, scattered and reduced to diaspora, with no scope for keeping to their traditions and roots,would be an easy prey to the Hindi project. And Hindi wasn't even that prominent,although the state was doing its best to force the language, by organising Hindi week, it had very little impact on bollywood. Most of the composers and dialogue writers would still keep to the old Hindustani, and as I had said, it remained so for many decades. Probably it is changing now, as I don't follow contemporary bollywood.
Check out this piece on Anand Bakhshi, he represented the Old Bollywood, however he composed poetry which the was intelligible to the common bollywood patron, the plebian kind, not at all like Faiz's Persian-laden verses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtRIOO0l3Z4

Until about 1980's, even the older migrant generation took a lot of pride and interest in Poetry, and it was exclusively Urdu. Ghalib, Iqbal, Faiz, Jagannath Azad Arora etc. And the letters from my Grandfather to my father started with , "Mere Aziz father's name", written in Urdu or sometimes used English, which my father would read to me. However somehow, urdu has the same background as Hindi has, its not at all an organic language,its artificial and they both have common verbs and their only difference is the script,and the vocabulary(heartland sanskrit for Hindi and arabic now for urdu).
And the urdu of the migrant Punjabis was actually a legacy of the anglo colonisation of Punjab, however its Parsi-Turkic vocabulary was entirely a native Punjabi thing. It had been part of Punjabi long before Urdu was ever first used anywhere in the country. My Grandmother would use certain words that are not even there in Urdu now, they are totally from a very old period,such as Kard(Knife) or Paroon(Yesterday or Past) etc. Sadly,with the older generation gone, its pretty much extinct, with the younger bunch drawn towards or insisting upon Americanisms.

bored
12-02-2018, 02:08 AM
Lol, maybe like the 1st guy, or maybe little bit of these three guys:


27410
27411
27412


Good try but I think you guys forgot what I look like...

pnb123
12-02-2018, 02:17 AM
Good try but I think you guys forgot what I look like...

I've never really seen what you look like from the front. Tbh, it's really very hard to find exact carbon copy of people (phenotype selection is very random).

poi
12-02-2018, 02:53 AM
Am I the only think who thinks bored bro very much like my cousin. Seriously, if not, I must be going blind.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 02:54 AM
I was just taking a jab at people who have hard time accepting the diversity. Like claiming Punjabi is carbon copy of hindi, and Sikhism is extension of Hinduism. Which is disrespectful.

My close friend is Jat Sikh , her and friends often rail against this and tropes perpetuated by Bollywood/TV all the time. Common complaints are projecting what she calls "Bhaiya" culture onto Sikhism ie recently she was ballistic about some show depicting Sikh women fasting for husbands and depicting it as being sacrosanct in Sikhism, when the complete opposite is true.

bored
12-02-2018, 03:00 AM
Am I the only think who thinks bored bro very much like my cousin. Seriously, if not, I must be going blind.

No way dude

bored
12-02-2018, 03:04 AM
Am I the only think who thinks bored bro very much like my cousin. Seriously, if not, I must be going blind.

ANother pic of me:

poi
12-02-2018, 03:07 AM
ANother pic of me:

27418

Definitely going blind. Don't see the attachment. :biggrin1:

pnb123
12-02-2018, 03:07 AM
ANother pic of me:

27418
Can't see it

poi
12-02-2018, 03:10 AM
My close friend is Jat Sikh , her and friends often rail against this and tropes perpetuated by Bollywood/TV all the time. Common complaints are projecting what she calls "Bhaiya" culture onto Sikhism ie recently she was ballistic about some show depicting Sikh women fasting for husbands and depicting it as being sacrosanct in Sikhism, when the complete opposite is true.

Fasting for husband is a HUGE Hindu cultural element. Parvati fasting for Shiva. I didn't know Bollywood/Hindi culture extended it to Sikhs/Sikhism.

bored
12-02-2018, 03:10 AM
Definitely going blind. Don't see the attachment. :biggrin1:


Can't see it

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4106-Post-a-pic-of-yourself-)&p=522366#post522366

poi
12-02-2018, 03:20 AM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4106-Post-a-pic-of-yourself-)&p=522366#post522366

Okay, going to double down bro. If I'm being obnoxious, I will just stop. I still see similar look.

Another of his shot.

27421

RougeS
12-02-2018, 03:20 AM
Fasting for husband is a HUGE Hindu cultural element. Parvati fasting for Shiva. I didn't know Bollywood/Hindi culture extended it to Sikhs/Sikhism.
Considering Ranjit Singh's wives went Sati fast seems very lesser influence of Hinduism.

bored
12-02-2018, 03:22 AM
Okay, going to double down bro. If I'm being obnoxious, I will just stop. I still see similar look.

Another of his shot.

27421

I don't see it but let's hear from others

pnb123
12-02-2018, 03:26 AM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4106-Post-a-pic-of-yourself-)&p=522366#post522366

Little bit of first one from my pics, little bit of poi's cousin, & little bit of 26284 bra (eyes).

bored
12-02-2018, 03:28 AM
Little bit of first one from my pics, little bit of poi's cousin, & little bit of 26284 bra (eyes).

Lol if you say so

poi
12-02-2018, 03:29 AM
Considering Ranjit Singh's wives went Sati fast seems very lesser influence of Hinduism.

Don't know man, Shiva's first wife's name was Sati. But going Sati could be an extension of old IE elements... although the IEs probably sent along horses and pigs to the deceased chiefs' funeral pyres.

Wikipedia:


Few reliable records exist of the practice before the time of the Gupta empire, approximately 400 CE although the Greek historian Aristobulus of Cassandreia, who traveled to India with the expedition of Alexander the Great, recorded that he had heard that among certain tribes widows were glad to burn along with their husbands, and that those who declined to die were disgraced.[22][23] According to Axel Michaels, the first inscriptional evidence of the practice is from Nepal in 464 CE, and in India from 510 CE.[7]
...
Indo-European practices

The archaeologist Elena Efimovna Kuzmina enlists clear parallels between the burial practices of the ancient Asiatic steppe Andronovo cultures (fl. 1800Ė1400 BCE) and the Vedic Age.[30] In Kuzmina's archaeological definition, sati is understood as a double burial, the co-cremation of a man and a woman/wife, a feature to be found in both cultures.[31] Kuzmina states that in the Androvo culture and Vedic age, the practice was never strictly observed and was symbolic.[32]

The sacrifice of widow(s) or a great man's retainers at his death is attested in various Indo-European cultures outside of India. As an example where the widows vied for the honour to die with their common husband, the 5th-century BCE historian Herodotus mentions the Krestones tribe among the Thracians. The woman found to have been held highest in the husband's favour while he lived had her throat slit on his grave, the surviving wives reputedly regarding it as a great shame to have to live on.[33] Citing the Gothic Wars of Procopius (written circa 550 CE), Edward Gibbon notes that among the Germanic tribe of the Heruli, a widow typically hanged herself upon her husband's tomb.[34]

MonkeyDLuffy
12-02-2018, 04:21 AM
The problem, from my perspective is that after the Partition, a lot of Punjabis, who were settled in places distant from Punjab, began to lose their touch, scattered and reduced to diaspora, with no scope for keeping to their traditions and roots,would be an easy prey to the Hindi project. And Hindi wasn't even that prominent,although the state was doing its best to force the language, by organising Hindi week, it had very little impact on bollywood. Most of the composers and dialogue writers would still keep to the old Hindustani, and as I had said, it remained so for many decades. Probably it is changing now, as I don't follow contemporary bollywood.
Check out this piece on Anand Bakhshi, he represented the Old Bollywood, however he composed poetry which the was intelligible to the common bollywood patron, the plebian kind, not at all like Faiz's Persian-laden verses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtRIOO0l3Z4

Until about 1980's, even the older migrant generation took a lot of pride and interest in Poetry, and it was exclusively Urdu. Ghalib, Iqbal, Faiz, Jagannath Azad Arora etc. And the letters from my Grandfather to my father started with , "Mere Aziz father's name", written in Urdu or sometimes used English, which my father would read to me. However somehow, urdu has the same background as Hindi has, its not at all an organic language,its artificial and they both have common verbs and their only difference is the script,and the vocabulary(heartland sanskrit for Hindi and arabic now for urdu).
And the urdu of the migrant Punjabis was actually a legacy of the anglo colonisation of Punjab, however its Parsi-Turkic vocabulary was entirely a native Punjabi thing. It had been part of Punjabi long before Urdu was ever first used anywhere in the country. My Grandmother would use certain words that are not even there in Urdu now, they are totally from a very old period,such as Kard(Knife) or Paroon(Yesterday or Past) etc. Sadly,with the older generation gone, its pretty much extinct, with the younger bunch drawn towards or insisting upon Americanisms.

We still use Kard for knife and paroon in our area. As well as sugar is called Khand. Chini is very rare, mostly used in urban areas. But I do agree, after partition Punjabi especially in cities have lost a lot of its vocabulary. Like Tah was used bottom, which is of farsi origin, but now it's replaced by Doabi "Thale".

MonkeyDLuffy
12-02-2018, 04:25 AM
My close friend is Jat Sikh , her and friends often rail against this and tropes perpetuated by Bollywood/TV all the time. Common complaints are projecting what she calls "Bhaiya" culture onto Sikhism ie recently she was ballistic about some show depicting Sikh women fasting for husbands and depicting it as being sacrosanct in Sikhism, when the complete opposite is true.

It's only in urban households. No one in pinds except Hindu women practice fasting. Heck mangalsootr or sindoor was not practiced by Sikh women in pinds too, but with mainstream culture I've seen it taking over in new generation in pind. My grandmother generation never did that, mom started doing it after moving to Chandigarh, but grandfather was against it so she stopped. She still use sindoor, which my grandma never liked lol.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-02-2018, 04:26 AM
Considering Ranjit Singh's wives went Sati fast seems very lesser influence of Hinduism.

Which was against the principles of Sikhism, but then again so was having multiple wives. Royals don't care about religion.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 05:59 AM
Don't know man, Shiva's first wife's name was Sati. But going Sati could be an extension of old IE elements... although the IEs probably sent along horses and pigs to the deceased chiefs' funeral pyres.

Wikipedia:

Sati is not a Vedic tradition , its seems a tradition brought in by some Central Asian nomads my hunch is the Huns , it starts occurring in Antiquity and centered in Northern India/Gangetic plains to my knowledge. Its unheard of in Southern India. Afaik, fasting for husbands is also a cultural tradition which spread into the mainstream from parts of the North in the Medieval times, its not practiced by Kashmiri Brahmins either.

Censored
12-02-2018, 06:03 AM
Sati is not a Vedic tradition , its seems a tradition brought in by some Central Asian nomads my hunch is the Huns , it starts occurring in Antiquity and centered in Northern India/Gangetic plains to my knowledge. Its unheard of in Southern India. Afaik, fasting for husbands is also a cultural tradition which spread into the mainstream from parts of the North in the Medieval times, its not practiced by Kashmiri Brahmins either.

It's crazy to me that so much of Indian culture owes itself to these various arrivals from the steppe, but the culture is so damn unique even among other Indo-European influenced cultures. Could this be due to the Dravidian influence?

pegasus
12-02-2018, 06:04 AM
It's only in urban households. No one in pinds except Hindu women practice fasting. Heck mangalsootr or sindoor was not practiced by Sikh women in pinds too, but with mainstream culture I've seen it taking over in new generation in pind. My grandmother generation never did that, mom started doing it after moving to Chandigarh, but grandfather was against it so she stopped. She still use sindoor, which my grandma never liked lol.

The Sikhs in the US/Canada who have been here a long time from my observation refrain from it and are very vocal about ie my friend goes ballistic also they tend to be more Orthodox. I personally don't see the harm but yes logically it goes against the basic principles laid for Sikhs.

poi
12-02-2018, 06:05 AM
Sati is not a Vedic tradition , its seems a tradition brought in by some Central Asian nomads my hunch is the Huns , it starts occurring in Antiquity and centered in Northern India/Gangetic plains to my knowledge. Its unheard of in Southern India. Afaik, fasting for husbands is also a cultural tradition which spread into the mainstream from parts of the North in the Medieval times, its not practiced by Kashmiri Brahmins either.

Interesting. Hard to believe Kashmiri Brahmin women not fasting when the center of Shaivism in the North is Kashmir. May be the practice dissapeared later?

RougeS
12-02-2018, 06:28 AM
Don't know man, Shiva's first wife's name was Sati. But going Sati could be an extension of old IE elements... although the IEs probably sent along horses and pigs to the deceased chiefs' funeral pyres.

Wikipedia:
Sati became popular in middle ages and some idiots added pro Sati stuffs in some lesser hindu texts.
Couple of months ago,i found a geneology website of my surname and as i was going through some family trees to see if mine was present,found a woman who went Sati in 1920.I was quite surprised and horrified seeing someone going Sati ~100yrs ago.

khanabadoshi
12-02-2018, 06:37 AM
These people are so dark. Is it normal for the Balochi people to be this dark?

Yes, Baloch are generally this skin tone. In Pakistan, it's generally accepted that the darker-skinned populations are the Sindhi, Baloch, and Saraiki.
I mean of course there is a lot of variation, but if you are asking if this is "dark for a Baloch", it's not, it's normal/average. It's definitely the skin tone of a lot of men in my family.

bored
12-02-2018, 06:46 AM
Yes, Baloch are generally this skin tone. In Pakistan, it's generally accepted that the darker-skinned populations are the Sindhi, Baloch, and Saraiki.
I mean of course there is a lot of variation, but if you are asking if this is "dark for a Baloch", it's not, it's normal/average. It's definitely the skin tone of a lot of men in my family.

Pretty amazing that they are so dark when their AASI is so low...

pegasus
12-02-2018, 06:48 AM
It's crazy to me that so much of Indian culture owes itself to these various arrivals from the steppe, but the culture is so damn unique even among other Indo-European influenced cultures. Could this be due to the Dravidian influence?

To the contrary, most of the mainstream culture I would say is routed in the IVC and/or tribal traditions ie the "Agama" . The stratified society which exists based of caste , extremely likely has its roots in the IVC. As DMXX mentioned earlier, IIr tribes extremely likely incorporated themselves into the patrician class, this is a pattern seen throughout out time in the world. Aspects like Sati are rare imported customs.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 06:56 AM
Interesting. Hard to believe Kashmiri Brahmin women not fasting when the center of Shaivism in the North is Kashmir. May be the practice dissapeared later?

They celebrate Shivratri but fasting for husbands is unheard of. No it was not a Vedic practice to begin with, its not observed among Sindhi Hindus either. It likely emerged in the Medieval times in NW India.

bmoney
12-02-2018, 07:07 AM
They celebrate Shivratri but fasting for husbands is unheard of. No it was not a Vedic practice to begin with, its not observed among Sindhi Hindus either. It likely emerged in the Medieval times in NW India.

I wonder if Gujaratis practice it (non-Rajputs)

pegasus
12-02-2018, 07:10 AM
Yes, Baloch are generally this skin tone. In Pakistan, it's generally accepted that the darker-skinned populations are the Sindhi, Baloch, and Saraiki.
I mean of course there is a lot of variation, but if you are asking if this is "dark for a Baloch", it's not, it's normal/average. It's definitely the skin tone of a lot of men in my family.

Yes there is a lot of diversity among them

https://ndu.edu.pk/issra/images/ISSRA/NSW6/Liaquat%20Ali%20Bangulzai.jpg

https://fkpolitics.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/legharis.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8jjLLIrnX4

Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 07:18 AM
Yes there is a lot of diversity among them

https://ndu.edu.pk/issra/images/ISSRA/NSW6/Liaquat%20Ali%20Bangulzai.jpg

https://fkpolitics.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/legharis.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8jjLLIrnX4

Exposure to sun. The pictures you posted, are all elite, from Leghari to Ayla Malik, Marri, Buzdars etc! The tanned ones were those who had to toil in the fields, not the elite.

Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 07:22 AM
Considering Ranjit Singh's wives went Sati fast seems very lesser influence of Hinduism.

Those were his Dogra wives, and Dogras did push certain practices and they are probably a remnant of the Huns pegasus referred to. They probably have this common with Rajasthani and other Hindi Heartland Rajputs as well.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 07:27 AM
Exposure to sun. The pictures you posted, are all elite, from Leghari to Ayla Malik, Marri, Buzdars etc! The tanned ones were those who had to toil in the fields, not the elite.

The purpose was to show the diversity.
The ones here don't look any different from the ones I met in DC or much different from those in Zahedan.
You interject for no reason I notice.

poi
12-02-2018, 07:56 AM
Exposure to sun. The pictures you posted, are all elite, from Leghari to Ayla Malik, Marri, Buzdars etc! The tanned ones were those who had to toil in the fields, not the elite.

There had to have extreme selective pressure among outdoor groups and indoor groups over thousands of years. There is no benefit of lighter pigmentation, primarily skin, if the job 12 hours a day is to remain outdoors in the blazing sun of Balochistan. The genetics in Baloch is relatively much lower AASI so can't be that as the primary factor. Climate and selection have definetely made groups as a whole lighter or darker, in South Asia atleast, that can't be simply explained by genetics.

Censored
12-02-2018, 08:23 AM
Pretty amazing that they are so dark when their AASI is so low...

According to these maps the skin color is comparable to parts of Arabia:
27424
27425

At this latitude at that climate itís hard to be anything but dark. But peninsular Arabs also have some SSA so that might throw it off as well...

Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 08:27 AM
There had to have extreme selective pressure among outdoor groups and indoor groups over thousands of years. There is no benefit of lighter pigmentation, primarily skin, if the job 12 hours a day is to remain outdoors in the blazing sun of Balochistan. The genetics in Baloch is relatively much lower AASI so can't be that as the primary factor. Climate and selection have definetely made groups as a whole lighter or darker, in South Asia atleast, that can't be simply explained by genetics.

Besides the genes, socio-economic stratification also has a significant role in determining certain physical traits,and of course with climate its the dual factor. Franz Boas would agree.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 08:36 AM
There had to have extreme selective pressure among outdoor groups and indoor groups over thousands of years. There is no benefit of lighter pigmentation, primarily skin, if the job 12 hours a day is to remain outdoors in the blazing sun of Balochistan. The genetics in Baloch is relatively much lower AASI so can't be that as the primary factor. Climate and selection have definetely made groups as a whole lighter or darker, in South Asia atleast, that can't be simply explained by genetics.

NO there is not and there is definitely positive selection towards darker skin but that being said its not fixed which allows for variance. Also note a good chunk of Balochistan and Southern Afghanistan have brutal winters which includes snow at times and sub freezing temperatures in that case more variant skin tones exist. Even in those Iran_N samples the snps were not fixed. That being said their skin tone range from a modern perspective would be in the range of peoples found in South Asia today which skews darker but is variant.

SLC24A5, rs1426654,

Sample Period Date BC D/T
AH1 Early Neolithic Unknown 2/4
AH2 Early Neolithic 8205–7756 0/4
AH4 Early Neolithic 8204–7755 2/2
WC1 Early Neolithic 7455–7082 5/13

passion
12-02-2018, 09:16 AM
Pretty amazing that they are so dark when their AASI is so low...

some balochs , mostly from middle classes .

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroworld/baloch-people-t805.html


I think its harsh climate of Baluchistan that make poor Balochs and Sindhs darker than what they should have been, you should keep in mind that in contrary to Sindhis and Balochs, upper class Punjabis are enjoying far better lifestyle and there is a strong middle class in Punjab for some generations since the boom in agriculture. If you go to Quetta you will see many balochs on par with Pashtuns in pigmentation.

agent_lime
12-02-2018, 10:34 AM
some balochs , mostly from middle classes .

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroworld/baloch-people-t805.html


I think its harsh climate of Baluchistan that make poor Balochs and Sindhs darker than what they should have been, you should keep in mind that in contrary to Sindhis and Balochs, upper class Punjabis are enjoying far better lifestyle and there is a strong middle class in Punjab for some generations since the boom in agriculture. If you go to Quetta you will see many balochs on par with Pashtuns in pigmentation.

They have harsh adaptations same as the Haryana Jats (some with 25%+ NE Euro). Epigenetics combined with natural selection for the sun reverses some of the features towards the people found in the tropics.

Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 11:57 AM
And we are back again talking about pigmentation. It is probably deeply embedded in the south asian psyche, and we are not the only people in Asia with a fascination for this, the Chinese have it as well.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 12:09 PM
And we are back again talking about pigmentation. It is probably deeply embedded in the south asian psyche, and we are not the only people in Asia with a fascination for this, the Chinese have it as well.

You assume too much

Rahuls77
12-02-2018, 12:13 PM
You assume too much

I say what is obvious, what can be clearly seen, without pretending that there is a serious probe, inquiry beneath these curiosities.

pegasus
12-02-2018, 02:59 PM
I say what is obvious, what can be clearly seen, without pretending that there is a serious probe, inquiry beneath these curiosities.

Even in that case, you still have to give the benefit of the doubt. Just a few pages back you went off the deep end on a crude tirade which was not warranted at all. Your heading in the Rediflal 2.0 direction very fast, its almost deja vu.

Kurd
12-02-2018, 03:22 PM
There had to have extreme selective pressure among outdoor groups and indoor groups over thousands of years. There is no benefit of lighter pigmentation, primarily skin, if the job 12 hours a day is to remain outdoors in the blazing sun of Balochistan. The genetics in Baloch is relatively much lower AASI so can't be that as the primary factor. Climate and selection have definetely made groups as a whole lighter or darker, in South Asia atleast, that can't be simply explained by genetics.

But genetics determines everything from the depth of our eye sockets to the thickness of our hair strands to pigmentation. As you correctly hint tanning plays a significant factor along with preference for lighter complexion in the ME and S Asia.

Here is a good paper that explains how genetics affects pigmentation:

http://www.jbc.org/content/282/38/27557.full.html


At this time, more than 125 distinct genes are known that regulate pigmentation either directly or indirectly (9). Many of those affect developmental processes critical to melanoblasts, others regulate the differentiation, survival, etc. of melanocytes, and yet others regulate distinct processes that affect pigmentation. Many of those genes (>25 at latest count) affect the biogenesis or function of melanosomes, the discrete membrane-bound organelles within which melanins are synthesized. Melanosomes, which are closely related to lysosomes and are within the family of lysosome-relatedg organelles (LROs),3 require a number of specific enzymatic and structural proteins to mature and become competent to produce melanin (10, 11). As space does not allow a full consideration of melanosome biogenesis and the specific functions of melanosomal proteins, readers are referred to several recent reviews on this topic (12, 13). Suffice it to say that the critical enzymes include tyrosinase (TYR), Tyrp1, and Dct, mutations of which dramatically affect the quantity and quality of melanins synthesized.



In sum, constitutive skin pigmentation is determined by: (a) the migration of melanoblasts to that tissue during development, (b) their survival and differentiation to melanocytes, (c) the density of melanocytes, (d) the expression/function of enzymatic and structural constituents of melanosomes, (e) the synthesis of different types of melanin (eu- and pheomelanin), (f) the transport of melanosomes to dendrites, (g) the transfer of melanosomes to keratinocytes, and finally (h) the distribution of melanin in suprabasal layers of the skin.


In a sense darker pigmentation is also somewhat proportional to the amount of ASI (IranN+AASI) and SW Asian DNA a subject has, with pigmentation dilution somewhat proportional to steppe and Anatolia Chl DNA.

If you meant there does not appear to be a correlation between pigmentation and the mostly intergenic junk DNA we use in admixture calculators, you would have to keep in mind that the admixture percentages or fractions are not a direct measure of how much say S Asian or E Asian DNA you have. That is why as a S Asian, in K3 calculator ( with E Asian, European, African comps) you will have a high E Asian % whereas in a K30 you will most likely have a very low one. The variance in % is a mathematical fractions issue and not a genetic one. I clarify this in 3 simple examples at :

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15976-Calculator-percentages

poi
12-02-2018, 03:46 PM
But genetics determines everything from the depth of our eye sockets to the thickness of our hair strands to pigmentation. As you correctly hint tanning plays a significant factor along with preference for lighter complexion in the ME and S Asia.

Here is a good paper that explains how genetics affects pigmentation:

http://www.jbc.org/content/282/38/27557.full.html







In a sense darker pigmentation is also somewhat proportional to the amount of ASI (IranN+AASI) and SW Asian DNA a subject has, with pigmentation dilution somewhat proportional to steppe and Anatolia Chl DNA.

If you meant there does not appear to be a correlation between pigmentation and the mostly intergenic junk DNA we use in admixture calculators, you would have to keep in mind that the admixture percentages or fractions are not a direct measure of how much say S Asian or E Asian DNA you have. That is why as a S Asian, in K3 calculator ( with E Asian, European, African comps) you will have a high E Asian % whereas in a K30 you will most likely have a very low one. The variance in % is a mathematical fractions issue and not a genetic one. I clarify this in 3 simple examples at :

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15976-Calculator-percentages

Thanks for the detailed reply, Kurd. I was not questioning the correlation between pigmentation and the DNA used in calculators, rather asking about the strength of the correlation, particularly within a population group where climate/selection could have a huge role. And I definitely agree that ASI and other southern components(that lack light pigmentation alleles) definitely cause the populations to be relatively darker than more northerly components like Steppe, etc., that had light pigmentation alleles.

poi
12-02-2018, 03:50 PM
Sati became popular in middle ages and some idiots added pro Sati stuffs in some lesser hindu texts.
Couple of months ago,i found a geneology website of my surname and as i was going through some family trees to see if mine was present,found a woman who went Sati in 1920.I was quite surprised and horrified seeing someone going Sati ~100yrs ago.

My maternal great-grandmother, when she was young, saw a woman going sati in her paternal village. It must have been around the time when sati-pratha was abolished by the Ranas, but I can calculate the date if necessary, because she must not have been more than 13 because she saw it before her marriage.

Kurd
12-02-2018, 03:55 PM
Thanks for the detailed reply, Kurd. I was not questioning the correlation between pigmentation and the DNA used in calculators, rather asking about the strength of the correlation, particularly within a population group where climate/selection could have a huge role. And I definitely agree that ASI and other southern components(that lack light pigmentation alleles) definitely cause the populations to be relatively darker than more northerly components like Steppe, etc., that had light pigmentation alleles.

Certainly like other types of selection, latitude and altitude (the amount of UVA radiation) plays a big role. The question becomes how long does the environment have to act on an individual for a certain phenotype to be selected for, and I'm not sure there is any definite answer to this.

Wrt to admixture %, what I meant was not to take those literally since the fraction depends on what other components are present in the calculator. A more direct measure of geneflow from a population is a 1:1 comparison of the user with that particular population for shared population defining mutations which I hint at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....or-percentages (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15976-Calculator-percentages) since the admixture fraction will vary depending on the other calculator components.

26284729292
12-03-2018, 03:52 AM
One of my uncles:

***

People here thought I looked exotic, but within my family, not even close IMO.

Don't quote picture please.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:00 AM
One of my uncles:


People here thought I looked exotic, but within my family, not even close IMO.

Is he full Tamil Brahmin? also what subcaste of Tamil Brahmin? I believe Iyengars are more northern shifted than Iyers

But yeah he certainly looks more West Asian shifted than some Tajik steppe level Haryana/UP Jats i've seen

Despite the vehement denial of certain members, Tamil Brahmins, Gujarati Patels etc can exhibit this phenotype in significant numbers and its likely due to ancient Iran_N/IVC alleles rather than the overall minor steppe both groups score (former more than the latter)

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:07 AM
Is he full Tamil Brahmin? also what subcaste of Tamil Brahmin? I believe Iyengars are more northern shifted than Iyers

But yeah he certainly looks more West Asian shifted than some Tajik steppe level Haryana/UP Jats i've seen

Despite the vehement denial of certain members, Tamil Brahmins, Gujarati Patels etc can exhibit this phenotype in significant numbers and its likely due to ancient Iran_N/IVC alleles rather than the overall minor steppe both groups score (former more than the latter)

Nah we are all iyer descended mostly. Actually in terms of technical split, iyengars integrated locals in a very long time ago, leading to a disagreement between them and iyers, hence the split, to my knowledge. I'm sure there are more north shifted iyengars too.

The funny part is I ran my cousin (his son's) harappa and he scored near identical to me, except some of the ne euro/caucasus was diverted to mediterannean instead. He's probably around 45-47% SI and about 12-14% steppe/caucasus/med like me. I'm telling you man, I literally don't understand this genotype/phenotype thing at all. There may be more to all of this besides sheer chance that we may not know.


@ bmoney if you can unquote the picture as well bro, that would be sweet.

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:08 AM
Quote removed

Lolol i'm never living this down huh?

Kulin
12-03-2018, 04:10 AM
Is he full Tamil Brahmin? also what subcaste of Tamil Brahmin? I believe Iyengars are more northern shifted than Iyers

But yeah he certainly looks more West Asian shifted than some Tajik steppe level Haryana/UP Jats i've seen

Despite the vehement denial of certain members, Tamil Brahmins, Gujarati Patels etc can exhibit this phenotype in significant numbers and its likely due to ancient Iran_N/IVC alleles rather than the overall minor steppe both groups score (former more than the latter)

Most Tamil Brahmins look like Gangetic plains Brahmins to me, but most Gujarati Patels don't have a "high caste look". Vast majority of Patels look like Kanbi/maratha groups from neighbouring Maharasthra, and it makes sense given they're similar genetically and also have similar origin. A minority of Patidars look Central Asian/West Asian shifted, and these are probably people from higher status gols/lineages.

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:22 AM
Is he full Tamil Brahmin? also what subcaste of Tamil Brahmin? I believe Iyengars are more northern shifted than Iyers

But yeah he certainly looks more West Asian shifted than some Tajik steppe level Haryana/UP Jats i've seen

Despite the vehement denial of certain members, Tamil Brahmins, Gujarati Patels etc can exhibit this phenotype in significant numbers and its likely due to ancient Iran_N/IVC alleles rather than the overall minor steppe both groups score (former more than the latter)


If it's Iran_N/IVC, how can that be in that I've never seen a velama/reddy who looks like him and they also have heavy iran_N/IVC ties. I also know tons of patels and have never met a patel who looks close to him. No negativity here, just curiosity. Perhaps BMAC peaking?

Kulin
12-03-2018, 04:24 AM
Diversity is present in most South Asian ethnic groups to be honest. Here's my mom's uncle for e.g., 100% Bengali (don't quote, thanks).

...........

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 04:25 AM
Nah we are all iyer descended mostly. Actually in terms of technical split, iyengars integrated locals in a very long time ago, leading to a disagreement between them and iyers, hence the split, to my knowledge. I'm sure there are more north shifted iyengars too.

The funny part is I ran my cousin (his son's) harappa and he scored near identical to me, except some of the ne euro/caucasus was diverted to mediterannean instead. He's probably around 45-47% SI and about 12-14% steppe/caucasus/med like me. I'm telling you man, I literally don't understand this genotype/phenotype thing at all. There may be more to all of this besides sheer chance that we may not know.


@ bmoney if you can unquote the picture as well bro, that would be sweet.

My Tamil buddy told me iyers are more mixed than iyengers, hence iyengers look more exotic. But their results are same on harappa. I wonder how's that possible. Between I remember you saying your one side is from UP brahmin, no?

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:26 AM
Most Tamil Brahmins look like Gangetic plains Brahmins to me, but most Gujarati Patels don't have a "high caste look". Vast majority of Patels look like Kanbi/maratha groups from neighbouring Maharasthra, and it makes sense given they're similar genetically and also have similar origin. A minority of Patidars look Central Asian/West Asian shifted, and these are probably people from higher status gols/lineages.

Actually Marathas and Patels don't have similar genetics. I don't have access to the calculator rn but Marathas are significantly more SS_o/tribal shifted than the Gujarati references and Midi Patel on nmonte and Gujaratis much more Iran_N shifted

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:26 AM
Most Tamil Brahmins look like Gangetic plains Brahmins to me, but most Gujarati Patels don't have a "high caste look". Vast majority of Patels look like Kanbi/maratha groups from neighbouring Maharasthra, and it makes sense given they're similar genetically and also have similar origin. A minority of Patidars look Central Asian/West Asian shifted, and these are probably people from higher status gols/lineages.

duplicate post

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 04:27 AM
Most Tamil Brahmins look like Gangetic plains Brahmins to me, but most Gujarati Patels don't have a "high caste look". Vast majority of Patels look like Kanbi/maratha groups from neighbouring Maharasthra, and it makes sense given they're similar genetically and also have similar origin. A minority of Patidars look Central Asian/West Asian shifted, and these are probably people from higher status gols/lineages.

Yup, Also Patel is used by a lot of Brahmins as well, and mostly patidars are very NW shifted, who end up looking like sindhis or us. But they're very small minority. It's usually Brahmins or.mixed muslims or.lohana from Gujarat who look like Punjabis or sindhi from my observation and what my patel friends have told me.

Must say though, the patels we have in Canada and US are different looking from Australia.

pnb123
12-03-2018, 04:28 AM
People here thought I looked exotic, but within my family, not even close IMO.

My little cousin will probably end up looking like you (idk for sure). Anyways, I think your kind of looks can be found in Chhetris more often. But sometimes among us as well. Example:

27460

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:29 AM
If it's Iran_N/IVC, how can that be in that I've never seen a velama/reddy who looks like him and they also have heavy iran_N/IVC ties. I also know tons of patels and have never met a patel who looks close to him. No negativity here, just curiosity. Perhaps BMAC peaking?

I doubt there is much BMAC difference, poi can you run him vs Gujaratis using Pegasus' calc

Regarding Velama, after running the samples individually one of the samples is Patel shifted high Iran_N, the other 2 are more Piramalai shifted higher AASI IIRC.

I'm not sure if the former Velama is the majority

Kulin
12-03-2018, 04:30 AM
Yup, Also Patel is used by a lot of Brahmins as well, and mostly patidars are very NW shifted, who end up looking like sindhis or us. But they're very small minority. It's usually Brahmins or.mixed muslims or.lohana from Gujarat who look like Punjabis or sindhi from my observation and what my patel friends have told me.

Must say though, the patels we have in Canada and US are different looking from Australia.

You look very steoreotypical Punjabi to me, but Sapporo looks generic "NW". He can go to an Ismaili Jamatkhana, and nobody would second guess that he's Punjabi, but he will definitely stick out in a garba venue here in Toronto lol.

Phenotype expression is sometimes random though, but does follow a genetic correlation obviously. For SA populations, Iranian Neolithic and ASI are the most important in regards to phenotype, but I think steppe also plays a role, as well as climate/geography obviously.

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:31 AM
My Tamil buddy told me iyers are more mixed than iyengers, hence iyengers look more exotic. But their results are same on harappa. I wonder how's that possible. Between I remember you saying your one side is from UP brahmin, no?

Yes on my ma's side. This uncle is from dad's side. But also other things, not just UP brahmin, as my maternal grandma's father was NI brahmin (UP we think but could be nepal/uttrakhand/etc.) but we also know that her family was not full brahmin and there was mixed caste in her as well, hence her sample not really elevating my NE Euro at all. My paternal grandma influenced my father and his brothers though. She was very light skinned and hence influenced all their complexions methinks.

I guess the iyer/iyengar thing is up for debate. I don't want to flame anyone so I'm sure it can go either way. As far as my family goes we are pretty endogamous hundreds of years back aside from my maternal gradnparents.

Still I'm curious about what Bmoney said in that it's an expression of Iran/N, IVC because again, a lot of SI/ middle india (andhra/telangana) have heavy IVC ties and again even in the outlierish people I've seen, don't even remotely resemble my uncle.

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:33 AM
I doubt there is much BMAC difference, poi can you run him vs Gujaratis using Pegasus' calc

Regarding Velama, after running the samples individually one of the samples is Patel shifted high Iran_N, the other 2 are more Piramalai shifted higher AASI IIRC.

I'm not sure if the former Velama is the majority

Yeah fair enough. My cousin will score near identical to me I'm sure so no point. Plus I don't have him on Nmonte. It won't add much diversity which we don't already have.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:34 AM
Yup, Also Patel is used by a lot of Brahmins as well, and mostly patidars are very NW shifted, who end up looking like sindhis or us. But they're very small minority. It's usually Brahmins or.mixed muslims or.lohana from Gujarat who look like Punjabis or sindhi from my observation and what my patel friends have told me.

Must say though, the patels we have in Canada and US are different looking from Australia.

Well you don't have to look far, youve seen Midis scores and what he looks like. He doesn't score like a Lohana at all

I assume Gujaratis in the US/Canada all look like Raj Shah from Trumps administration.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:42 AM
Yes on my ma's side. This uncle is from dad's side. But also other things, not just UP brahmin, as my maternal grandma's father was NI brahmin (UP we think but could be nepal/uttrakhand/etc.) but we also know that her family was not full brahmin and there was mixed caste in her as well, hence her sample not really elevating my NE Euro at all. My paternal grandma influenced my father and his brothers though. She was very light skinned and hence influenced all their complexions methinks.

I guess the iyer/iyengar thing is up for debate. I don't want to flame anyone so I'm sure it can go either way. As far as my family goes we are pretty endogamous hundreds of years back aside from my maternal gradnparents.

Still I'm curious about what Bmoney said in that it's an expression of Iran/N, IVC because again, a lot of SI/ middle india (andhra/telangana) have heavy IVC ties and again even in the outlierish people I've seen, don't even remotely resemble my uncle.

What im saying is so far we're basing this SI/Middle India Andhra/Telangana IVC link assumption on Kush and one Velama sample from a group of 3.

We need more data. Until then I suggest we use Gujaratis as better representatives of the IVC as we have more samples from this group

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:46 AM
What im saying is so far we're basing this SI/Middle India Andhra/Telangana on Kush and one Velama sample from a group of 3.

We need more data. Until then I suggest we use Gujaratis as better represenatives of the IVC as we have more samples

That's a fair point. We don't have enough data on middle India.

Do you think these rakhigari samples will change anything?

Censored
12-03-2018, 04:47 AM
What im saying is so far we're basing this SI/Middle India Andhra/Telangana IVC link assumption on Kush and one Velama sample from a group of 3.

We need more data. Until then I suggest we use Gujaratis as better representatives of the IVC as we have more samples from this group

I agree with what you have said here. Midi lacks steppe entirely and his AASI is pretty close to my own(I think). The only rational explanation is that it is coming from that Ganj Dareh.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:49 AM
You look very steoreotypical Punjabi to me, but Sapporo looks generic "NW". He can go to an Ismaili Jamatkhana, and nobody would second guess that he's Punjabi, but he will definitely stick out in a garba venue here in Toronto lol.

Phenotype expression is sometimes random though, but does follow a genetic correlation obviously. For SA populations, Iranian Neolithic and ASI are the most important in regards to phenotype, but I think steppe also plays a role, as well as climate/geography obviously.

Again this is subjective. Exotic looking Patels can overlap with Sapporo though they would be a minority. Google Priti Patel from the UK

There is no geographic boundary either genetically or phenotypically that prevents overlap and the IVC stretched from Punjab to Gujarat (and Maharashtra indirectly)

The civilisation was primarily located in modern-day India (Gujarat, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir states)[2] and Pakistan (Sindh, Punjab, and Balochistan provinces)

26284729292
12-03-2018, 04:51 AM
Again this is subjective. Exotic looking Patels can overlap with Sapporo though they would be a minority.

There is no geographic boundary either genetically or phenotypically that prevents overlap and the IVC stretched from Punjab to Gujarat (and Maharashtra indirectly)

The civilisation was primarily located in modern-day India (Gujarat, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir states)[2] and Pakistan (Sindh, Punjab, and Balochistan provinces)

Really? I think their genotype may also reflect this though, i.e. muslim/brahmin/lohana shifted patels, many of whom are also out there. Midi himself has some possible brahmin/muslim/lohana admix compared to the typical patel sample (gujarati C/D IIRC).

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:53 AM
That's a fair point. We don't have enough data on middle India.

Do you think these rakhigari samples will change anything?

Yes definitely.

Right now the main positions are if they resemble a lower AASI population like Patels or a higher AASI population like the Irula

bmoney
12-03-2018, 04:55 AM
Really? I think their genotype may also reflect this though, i.e. muslim/brahmin/lohana shifted patels, many of whom are also out there. Midi himself has some possible brahmin/muslim/lohana admix compared to the typical patel sample (gujarati C/D IIRC).

His AASI levels are nowhere near what Lohanas/Khojas/Memons would score

But yes Khoja/Memons would overlap much more with Punjabis than Gujarati Patels phenotypically and genetically, though both (Sindh shifted Gujaratis and Patels) have high levels of Iran_N and differ more on AASI levels

midichlorian
12-03-2018, 05:01 AM
Did someone say Patel? :beerchug:

26284729292
12-03-2018, 05:06 AM
IOriginal post removed

I am somewhere in between you guys. I think that diversity is for sure rampant, but I also think some looks are literally impossible because people don't have the genotypes to express them. That's why I personally don't think I'll ever meet a true Patel who looks like Sapporo. Their genotypes are wildly different and the massive amount of steppe that makes up Sapporo is absent in most patels.

In the same manner, I don't think my uncle has a look I'll ever see out of "steppe-less" populations only in that I know tons and tons and tons of south and middle indians from middle castes and no one even looks remotely close. Also I think he can also be modeled as 75% gujarati C and say 25% Tajik in some gedmatch calcs. That Tajik (or another similar population, or another admix containing steppe and other more exotic pops) is what gives the look, not IVC IMO.

I think steppe has something to do with this, not so much in pure amounts (which has more to do with probability of expression), but moreso that having it allows for its expression, manifesting itself in ways you simply don't see out of other pops. It's the same reason you'll never meet a Kallar who looks like me. In one of the gedmatch calcs, I scored 40% uzbek and 60% kallar, which goes to show how massively different our genotypes are. Something that isn't overlapping is causing the difference in looks.

midichlorian
12-03-2018, 05:07 AM
I assume Gujaratis in the US/Canada all look like Raj Shah from Trumps administration.

haha I'm a US Gujju m8. I don't know too many Gujjus that look like him, and I sure don't have the weightiness of his. Is he Gujarati? His family is from Mumbai so thought he was maybe Maharashtran.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 05:09 AM
@28129129 dude I certainly don't believe all South Asians look the same on average from region to region, dont buy this lazy bunk used as a way to dismiss my separate argument which is that overlap exists among South Asians from shared Narasimhan genetic components (Steppe+IVCp+AASI)

Also interested to know what your explanation is for the South Asian phenotype exhibited by high steppe groups like UP Jats if you believe IVCp is not the primary determinant

If your uncle scores like you, he's certainly not off-cline for SI Brahmins

pnb123
12-03-2018, 05:10 AM
Phenotype expression is sometimes random though, but does follow a genetic correlation obviously. For SA populations, Iranian Neolithic and ASI are the most important in regards to phenotype, but I think steppe also plays a role, as well as climate/geography obviously.

Agree, but it also has to do with the time of admixture. ASI was probably native to the subcontinent, but all other admixture were not. They came in waves & impacted different population at different times. More recent you mixed, more "exotic" phenotype you're going to produce. But over the time because of adaptation to extreme heat of S Asia, it naturally makes sense for your features to look more S Asian (maybe ASI kicks in). If 100% Steppe pop was still dwelling in S Asia, I doubt they would look anything like interior S Asians.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 05:16 AM
I am somewhere in between you guys. I think that diversity is for sure rampant, but I also think some looks are literally impossible because people don't have the genotypes to express them. That's why I personally don't think I'll ever meet a true Patel who looks like Sapporo. Their genotypes are wildly different and the massive amount of steppe that makes up Sapporo is absent in most patels.

In the same manner, I don't think my uncle has a look I'll ever see out of "steppe-less" populations only in that I know tons and tons and tons of south and middle indians from middle castes and no one even looks remotely close. Also I think he can also be modeled as 75% gujarati C and say 25% Tajik in some gedmatch calcs. That Tajik (or another similar population, or another admix containing steppe and other more exotic pops) is what gives the look, not IVC IMO.

I think steppe has something to do with this, not so much in pure amounts (which has more to do with probability of expression), but moreso that having it allows for its expression, manifesting itself in ways you simply don't see out of other pops. It's the same reason you'll never meet a Kallar who looks like me. In one of the gedmatch calcs, I scored 40% uzbek and 60% kallar, which goes to show how massively different our genotypes are. Something that isn't overlapping is causing the difference in looks.

I totally agree with your post. No sarcasm.

26284729292
12-03-2018, 05:20 AM
@28129129 dude I certainly don't believe all South Asians look the same on average from region to region, dont buy this lazy bunk used as a way to dismiss my separate argument which is that overlap exists among South Asians from shared Narasimhan genetic components (Steppe+IVCp+AASI)

Also interested to know what your explanation is for the South Asian phenotype exhibited by high steppe groups like UP Jats if you believe IVCp is not the primary determinant

If your uncle scores like you, he's certainly not off-cline for SI Brahmins

My uncle definitely scores just like me. I'm certain.

You do raise a good point and I need to look further into it. Here's what I presume.

1. We live in the states and avoid the incredibly hot/harsh climates of certain regions of India, UP could be part of that as well. That climate has some to do with looks through expression of genes.

2. By sheer probability and the similarity (not amounts) of base components, my uncle and a haryana jat could express genes from the same ancestral groups, hence looking smilar.

3. It may be 100% IVC based, but there may be current components that are missing in our current estimation that could have contributed to these looks which are "categorized" as the same thing.

For example, we can model so many south asians using SISBA3, but one of my friends is in archaeology and what he told me is "isn't it crazy that you model populations off of a few samples". What if there were waves of IVC like people, who are somewhat genetically distinct, and we just don't have the bones/DNA to incorporate them into our current models? I'm not saying its true, but it's a possibliity that could explain certain differences that we do/don't see.

But honestly what you're saying is one of the biggest mysteries to me. I wish I knew, but I don't know enough. I honestly defer to you on this. You are way more knowledgeable than me on this.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 05:24 AM
My uncle definitely scores just like me. I'm certain.

You do raise a good point and I need to look further into it. Here's what I presume.

1. We live in the states and avoid the incredibly hot/harsh climates of certain regions of India, UP could be part of that as well. That climate has some to do with looks through expression of genes.

2. By sheer probability and the similarity (not amounts) of base components, my uncle and a haryana jat could express genes from the same ancestral groups, hence looking smilar.

3. It may be 100% IVC based, but there may be current components that are missing in our current estimation that could have contributed to these looks which are "categorized" as the same thing.

For example, we can model so many south asians using SISBA3, but one of my friends is in archaeology and what he told me is "isn't it crazy that you model populations off of a few samples". What if there were waves of IVC like people, who are somewhat genetically distinct, and we just don't have the bones/DNA to incorporate them into our current models? I'm not saying its true, but it's a possibliity that could explain certain differences that we do/don't see.

But honestly what you're saying is one of the biggest mysteries to me. I wish I knew, but I don't know enough. I honestly defer to you on this. You are way more knowledgeable than me on this.

Don't disagree with any of this, Id say Pegasus is the most knowledgeable. Interested to hear his thoughts

Also wanted to add that Kallars and SI Brahmins are quite different in terms of autosomal dna, if you run both using simulated AASI/SISBA3/Sintashta you'll see

26284729292
12-03-2018, 05:28 AM
Don't disagree with any of this, Id say Pegasus is the most knowledgeable. Interested to hear his thoughts

Also wanted to add that Kallars and SI Brahmins are quite different in terms of autosomal dna, if you run both using simulated AASI/SISBA3/Sintashta you'll see

You're right, I was trying to give the example that they have higher AASI and lower IVC, but the largest "component difference" in our traditional model is steppe. I really do think there are many IVC intermediary samples which contribute to this diversity. It's just that for many of us, they get shunted to IVC because that's all we have, rather than other subgrups which could allow to glean more.

midichlorian
12-03-2018, 05:29 AM
Here folks, Lemme lay it to rest. I look Punjabi in natural lighting. :P

27461

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 05:35 AM
Here folks, Lemme lay it to rest. I look Punjabi in natural lighting. :P

27461

If you'd tell me you're Sahil sharma from Ludhiana, I won't doubt. But then again I haven't seen you irl.

Censored
12-03-2018, 05:38 AM
Here folks, Lemme lay it to rest. I look Punjabi in natural lighting. :P

27461

Good lighting=Tajik
Bad lighting=Aboriginal Australian

Censored
12-03-2018, 05:44 AM
I guess for me my ethnicity and background is way more Important than my community. And someone denying it's uniqueness, and separate identity from Hinduism as well as Gangetic planes is down right disrespectful. You're welcome to think Punjabi culture is similar to Telgus than a peshawari pashtun culture, but it only adds up to Nationalist agenda. Posting pics of Sri lankan people who resemble a really dark Punjabi won't change the reality. There is a pan look, but it's way smaller than what you claim.

You can deny our language uniqueness, compare it to Hindi, you can deny our cultural and religious uniqueness, say it is based on Hinduism, but you should be ready for a counter argument too.

Let's wait for quote.

What's the deal with you? Nothing he has said just now is even remotely close to what you're claiming. This legit feels like two different conversations.

midichlorian
12-03-2018, 05:47 AM
Let's all just relax. I've dealt with similar things before. The way to handle it is for everyone to stop having a dick measuring contest. This is basically like a trade war and no one wants to flinch first. Either message each other privately and discuss this off thread, or enact section 69 of Art of the Deal and just come to the conclusion that the start, middle, and end of your arguments were pointless in the first place.

Sapporo
12-03-2018, 05:48 AM
Regarding the disconnect between phenotype and genotpye, Dr_McNinja has some very solid points. I reallly wish he was still active here. His familiarity with South Asian history was top notch and his technical knowledge with regards to genetic software/modeling was probably on par with poi.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14279-Punjabi-Results&p=399263&viewfull=1#post399263


What's the deal with you? Nothing he has said just now is even remotely close to what you're claiming. This legit feels like two different conversations.

Like MDL said, it was on a separate non-anthrogenica chat group. Not really relevant here and probably confusing for most members.

passion
12-03-2018, 06:10 AM
I dont think bmoney is saying that all South Asians look same ,
though i agree with him there is a Pan South Asian look that can be found/pass from Punjab to south India, that suddenly disappear when you go to KPK or Gilgit or even Azad Kashmir, but this doesnt mean that all south asians look same there are many Punjabis(specially woman) who also look closer to their western/northern neighbours than to anywhere in South Asia.

Sapporo
12-03-2018, 06:15 AM
I dont think bmoney is saying that all South Asians look same ,
though i agree with him there is a Pan South Asian look that can be found/pass from Punjab to south India, that suddenly disappear when you go to KPK or Gilgit or even Azad Kashmir, but this doesnt mean that all south asians look same there are many Punjabis(specially woman) who also look closer to their western/northern neighbours than to anywhere in South Asia.

The look you're referring to extends into Peshawar and to a lesser extent into FATA and N2KL. The rate at which is drops is the largest difference from east of the Indus to west of it. Just search common tribal names on facebook and look for their home city/towns or current locations to be in FATA. For the longest time, I thought the furthest west I'd see these types is Peshawar but I was clearly wrong.

Honestly, I'd be interested in seeing bol_nat and Zuran's thoughts on this as well as khana.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 06:27 AM
I dont think bmoney is saying that all South Asians look same ,
though i agree with him there is a Pan South Asian look that can be found/pass from Punjab to south India, that suddenly disappear when you go to KPK or Gilgit or even Azad Kashmir, but this doesnt mean that all south asians look same there are many Punjabis(specially woman) who also look closer to their western/northern neighbours than to anywhere in South Asia.

Yep thats it, from the video of Utmankhels Pegasus linked, its hard to see pan-SA types among them. Malala Yousafzai and Fakhar Zaman are probably the closest Eastern Pashtuns I've seen to that look but maybe Pakistani users can confirm

I don't know if this extends to Srinagar but my Punjabi Ramgarhia friend (whos normie unlike us genetics woke folks) just recently went there.

I asked him questions about valley Kashmiris, he said they spoke Hindi with a Persian accent and look 'Central Asian'. I asked like Persians? when I pressed he said not specifically Persian but more rosy cheeked and northern. He said they looked 'different' and 'not Indian'. He also mentioned the people either looked like that or like E Asian shifted Ladakhis. He mentioned also mentioned that Kashmiri was completely unintelligible

I have seen Kashmiri Pandits irl who can exhibit the pan-India phenotype though

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 06:32 AM
Yep thats it, from the video of Utmankhels Pegasus linked, its hard to see pan-SA types among them. Malala Yousafzai and Fakhar Zaman are probably the closest Eastern Pashtuns I've seen to that look but maybe Pakistani users can confirm

I don't know if this extends to Srinagar but my Punjabi Ramgarhia friend (whos normie unlike us genetics woke folks) just recently went there.

I asked him questions about valley Kashmiris, he said they spoke Hindi with a Persian accent and look 'Central Asian'. I asked like Persians? when I pressed he said not specifically Persian but more rosy cheeked and northern. He said they looked 'different' and 'not Indian'. He also mentioned the people either looked like that or like E Asian shifted Ladakhis. He mentioned also mentioned that Kashmiri was completely unintelligible

I have seen Kashmiri Pandits irl who can exhibit the pan-India phenotype though

Which is surprising because I didn't stand out in Srinagar during my trip.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 06:35 AM
Which is surprising because I didn't stand out in Srinagar during my trip.

You probably don't. That doesn't invalidate his experience though

passion
12-03-2018, 06:45 AM
The look you're referring extends into Peshawar and to a lesser extent into FATA and N2KL. The rate at which is drops is the largest difference from east of the Indus to west of it. Just search common tribal names on facebook and look for their home city/towns or current locations to be in FATA. For the longest time, I thought the furthest west I'd see these types is Peshawar but I was clearly wrong.

Honestly, I'd be interested in seeing bol_nat and Zuran's thoughts on this as well as khana.

yeah I was mainly talking about frequencies .Plain Indid types can extend all the way to Tajiks(i am not talking about them) , but I was talking mainly about very dark south asian types that can be found in Punjabis like christians , these types disappear drastically once you cross Indus river. e.g here is a video from a crossroad in Lahore

Lahore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27LsEG-UQks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2CSP1oRmLg

Peshawar


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnnpGA8wdkw

poi
12-03-2018, 06:55 AM
My beard growth after weeks and months of careful growth (which simply means I got too lazy to trim/shave).


27462

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 07:01 AM
You probably don't. That doesn't invalidate his experience though


Not at all, observations differ from person to person. From my experience the exotic types started showing once we started going towards Gulmarg. Srinagar was diverse. Pegasus has the best idea since he is half kashmiri.

Censored
12-03-2018, 07:01 AM
Which is surprising because I didn't stand out in Srinagar during my trip.

All this talk about who passes where and Im still not sure where I fit in.

Censored
12-03-2018, 07:02 AM
Not at all, observations differ from person to person. From my experience the exotic types started showing once we started going towards Gulmarg. Srinagar was diverse. Pegasus has the best idea since he is half kashmiri.

What is the other half?

Sapporo
12-03-2018, 07:11 AM
yeah I was mainly talking about frequencies .Plain Indid types can extend all the way to Tajiks(i am not talking about them) , but I was talking mainly about very dark south asian types that can be found in Punjabis like christians , these types disappear drastically once you cross Indus river. e.g here is a video from a crossroad in Lahore

Fair enough regarding "christian" types and I know what you mean. I met a half Tajik/half Pashtun guy from Manzar E Sharif (North Afghanistan) maybe 4-5 months ago and he could have passed in NW South Asia but still had an Afghan tilt to his look. The most obvious sign he was Afghan to me though was his accent and eyes. Otherwise, he was a similar skintone to me.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 07:16 AM
All this talk about who passes where and Im still not sure where I fit in.

I still want to know If I'll pass my driving test. We all have questions brother.

prashantvaidwan
12-03-2018, 07:57 AM
@28129129 dude I certainly don't believe all South Asians look the same on average from region to region, dont buy this lazy bunk used as a way to dismiss my separate argument which is that overlap exists among South Asians from shared Narasimhan genetic components (Steppe+IVCp+AASI)

Also interested to know what your explanation is for the South Asian phenotype exhibited by high steppe groups like UP Jats if you believe IVCp is not the primary determinant

If your uncle scores like you, he's certainly not off-cline for SI Brahmins

Please don't build your argument based on UP jats everywhere, perhaps you know one or two family and that phenotype is certainly not typical. My family members, a random photo in a cold morning at my village, don't quote..i will take it out soon.

pegasus
12-03-2018, 08:04 AM
I still want to know If I'll pass my driving test. We all have questions brother.

What center are you taking it in ?

Peterborough and Belleville are easiest if your doing G2

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 08:18 AM
What center are you taking it in ?

Peterborough and Belleville are easiest if your doing G2

Nah for AZ license lol. I'll be probably taking at Guelph.

pegasus
12-03-2018, 08:21 AM
Nah for AZ license lol. I'll be probably taking at Guelph.

PM me plz lol

kush
12-03-2018, 09:41 AM
Although not typical there are few reddys that are quite nw shifted imo. Would she be mistaken as a typical punjabi?

She's a famous fashion desginer, Shilpa Reddy
http://i68.tinypic.com/t0nuw9.jpg
http://szcdn1.raagalahari.com/mar2015/hd/shilpa-reddy-high-definition/shilpa-reddy-high-definition13.jpg
https://moviegalleri.net/wp-content/gallery/n-asian-restaurant-launch-stills/shilpa_reddy_n_asian_restaurant_launch_stills_6330 2.jpg

pegasus
12-03-2018, 09:41 AM
edit..

pegasus
12-03-2018, 09:46 AM
Although not typical, there are few atypical reddys that are quite nw shifted imo. Would she be mistake as a typical punjabi?

She's a famous fashion desginer, Shilpa Reddy]

She clearly has had a mountain of plastic surgery and skin treatments done. Her google pictures clearly show that dramatic transformation. Honestly in her early pics she looks like women I have seen Naxalite documentaries , it just goes to show how much surgery can change someone.

kush
12-03-2018, 09:50 AM
She clearly has had a mountain of plastic surgery and skin treatments done. Her google pictures clearly show that dramatic transformation. Honestly in her early pics she looks like women I have seen Naxalite documentaries , it just goes to show how much surgery can change someone.

can you show me her earlier pics? None of her pics on google atleast show any signs of plastic surgery. Skin treatments, maybe. quite possible. even then, her general face structure, robustness, and placement of features look quite northern imo.

pegasus
12-03-2018, 09:59 AM
can you show me her earlier pics? None of her pics on google atleast show any signs of plastic surgery. even then, her general face structure, robustness, and placement of features look quite northern imo.

I don't think so at all.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-47DrJd-y9mY/Tzyu0mhfREI/AAAAAAAAApU/QOArGpE-kuw/s1600/shilpa-shetty-childhood-photos-506147b2.jpg

kush
12-03-2018, 10:01 AM
I don't think so at all.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-47DrJd-y9mY/Tzyu0mhfREI/AAAAAAAAApU/QOArGpE-kuw/s1600/shilpa-shetty-childhood-photos-506147b2.jpg

thats shilpa shetty bro actually, not shilpa reddy. she's kannada.

pegasus
12-03-2018, 10:01 AM
Nah for AZ license lol. I'll be probably taking at Guelph.

clear your inbox

MonkeyDLuffy
12-03-2018, 10:04 AM
clear your inbox

Done.

pegasus
12-03-2018, 10:14 AM
thats shilpa shetty bro actually, not shilpa reddy. she's kannada.

I googled the wrong one lol

pegasus
12-03-2018, 10:15 AM
Although not typical there are few reddys that are quite nw shifted imo. Would she be mistaken as a typical punjabi?

She's a famous fashion desginer, Shilpa Reddy
http://i68.tinypic.com/t0nuw9.jpg
http://szcdn1.raagalahari.com/mar2015/hd/shilpa-reddy-high-definition/shilpa-reddy-high-definition13.jpg
https://moviegalleri.net/wp-content/gallery/n-asian-restaurant-launch-stills/shilpa_reddy_n_asian_restaurant_launch_stills_6330 2.jpg

OK nvm , she passes in many places. Pretty woman. I am on my phone I didn't open ur link lol

agent_lime
12-03-2018, 10:19 AM
I googled the wrong one lol

I tried looking for her older pictures. She's had some skin lightening/treatments for sure, but she seems like the same person. And yes she will pass in Punjab or Haryana.

bmoney
12-03-2018, 10:22 AM
Please don't build your argument based on UP jats everywhere, perhaps you know one or two family and that phenotype is certainly not typical. My family members, a random photo in a cold morning at 27464 my village, don't quote..i will take it out soon.

Bro I know thereís a lot of variation and non-south Asian shifted examples

And I based my opinion on Facebook examples from surnames and images others linked me, not just the 2 families

passion
12-03-2018, 10:28 AM
new Pak Pashtun bowler -Shaheen Shah Afridi , As name suggest Afridi ,any opinion on his phenotype.
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/pakistani-cricketer-shaheen-shah-afridi-prepares-to-bowl-during-a-picture-id1067110726
https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41507716_331390117597715_3549346589568925696_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=56791f7430ffb958a7eec6b82e0c0ba9&oe=5C64A85A
https://www.crictracker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Shaheen-Shah-Afridi.jpg
https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/cp0/e15/q65/s480x480/29339658_340782556430903_4132473801130639360_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=144fcaeee5f9a6dfa7ed466cf05cee65&oe=5C6ED91E

agent_lime
12-03-2018, 10:38 AM
Shilpa Reddy old picture-
http://www.bollywood4u.com/jpg800600/shilpa_reddy_006_ohtc.jpg


New picture (with Skin Lightening, colored hair, lenses, and botox). Nose is probably the same.

https://www.southjewellery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/shilpa_reddy_pearls_choker.jpg

bmoney
12-03-2018, 10:46 AM
Shilpa Reddy old picture-
http://www.bollywood4u.com/jpg800600/shilpa_reddy_006_ohtc.jpg


New picture (with Skin Lightening, colored hair, lenses, and botox). Nose is probably the same.

https://www.southjewellery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/shilpa_reddy_pearls_choker.jpg

Tbh thatís probably common in all indian actresses

Imagine Priyanka Chopra without surgery

kush
12-03-2018, 10:49 AM
Tbh that’s probably common in all indian actresses

Imagine Priyanka Chopra without surgery

yeah she looks quite different from her older pics. she's quite overrated imo

bmoney
12-03-2018, 10:50 AM
Here’s what she used to look like

https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/styles/photo_slider_753x543/public/images/photogallery/201703/priyanka4_032317052209.jpg?gPVuyj.gfYBpVNs4IPD58Jo .xvLVRVFH

pegasus
12-03-2018, 10:51 AM
new Pak Pashtun bowler -Shaheen Shah Afridi , As name suggest Afridi ,any opinion on his phenotype.
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/pakistani-cricketer-shaheen-shah-afridi-prepares-to-bowl-during-a-picture-id1067110726
https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41507716_331390117597715_3549346589568925696_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=56791f7430ffb958a7eec6b82e0c0ba9&oe=5C64A85A
https://www.crictracker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Shaheen-Shah-Afridi.jpg
https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/cp0/e15/q65/s480x480/29339658_340782556430903_4132473801130639360_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=144fcaeee5f9a6dfa7ed466cf05cee65&oe=5C6ED91E

We cannot discuss classification or specific phenotype but he looks Kurdish to me but to a general person he fits in many places , from an American view, he is Italian American or a Cuban .

agent_lime
12-03-2018, 11:02 AM
Here’s what she used to look like

https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/styles/photo_slider_753x543/public/images/photogallery/201703/priyanka4_032317052209.jpg?gPVuyj.gfYBpVNs4IPD58Jo .xvLVRVFH

She is half Punjabi and half Jharkhandi and was still pretty before the surgery.

Here is her with her other actress cousins that are likely full Punjabi. Mannara and Parineeti.

https://resize.indiatvnews.com/en/centered/oldbucket/715_431/entertainmentbollywood/IndiaTv70b600_priyanka-mannara.jpg

https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/images/story/201810/fb.jpeg?c1WS2F5FgRcl975V7D2K4_0z8fu3UisZ

bmoney
12-03-2018, 11:16 AM
She is half Punjabi and half Jharkhandi and was still pretty before the surgery.

Here is her with her other actress cousins that are likely full Punjabi. Mannara and Parineeti.

https://resize.indiatvnews.com/en/centered/oldbucket/715_431/entertainmentbollywood/IndiaTv70b600_priyanka-mannara.jpg

https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/images/story/201810/fb.jpeg?c1WS2F5FgRcl975V7D2K4_0z8fu3UisZ

Her attractiveness wasn’t the point. The surgery and skin lightening was

Her dad is Punjabi

https://goo.gl/images/yyQ7Gb

agent_lime
12-03-2018, 11:20 AM
Her attractiveness wasn’t the point. The surgery was

Her dad is Punjabi

https://goo.gl/images/yyQ7Gb

I saw her after her first movie. Yes, lot of it is surgery and large amounts of money spend on looks. This is what she used to look like.

https://images.indianexpress.com/2017/07/abc-priyanka.jpg

Edit: My point was even without the nose job/ surgery/ skin lightening she had a Miss World and would have been fine.

kush
12-03-2018, 11:21 AM
Her attractiveness wasn’t the point. The surgery was

Her dad is Punjabi

https://goo.gl/images/yyQ7Gb

my fault i brought up the attractiveness part initially. but yeah her major change is the nose.

Rahuls77
12-03-2018, 11:44 AM
new Pak Pashtun bowler -Shaheen Shah Afridi , As name suggest Afridi ,any opinion on his phenotype.
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/pakistani-cricketer-shaheen-shah-afridi-prepares-to-bowl-during-a-picture-id1067110726

Looks somewhat similar to my cousin, except for the nose, which is a little prominent.
27469
27470

khanabadoshi
12-03-2018, 01:32 PM
some balochs , mostly from middle classes.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroworld/baloch-people-t805.html


I think its harsh climate of Baluchistan that make poor Balochs and Sindhs darker than what they should have been, you should keep in mind that in contrary to Sindhis and Balochs, upper class Punjabis are enjoying far better lifestyle and there is a strong middle class in Punjab for some generations since the boom in agriculture. If you go to Quetta you will see many balochs on par with Pashtuns in pigmentation.

Not that it's too pressing a matter, but the majority of those people are of the tumandari/sardari class. ie. the familial head of a tribe. Some of those people are royalty, and half Afghan. Some are also Brahui. There are some regular guys though in the photos.

bol_nat
12-03-2018, 01:33 PM
yeah I was mainly talking about frequencies .Plain Indid types can extend all the way to Tajiks(i am not talking about them) , but I was talking mainly about very dark south asian types that can be found in Punjabis like christians , these types disappear drastically once you cross Indus river. e.g here is a video from a crossroad in Lahore

Lahore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27LsEG-UQks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2CSP1oRmLg

Peshawar


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnnpGA8wdkw

tbh christians or castes like mussalis in punjab are even more ASI shifted in looks then average urdu speaking muhajir of Karachi. That type of look will be very rare among pashtuns.

passion
12-03-2018, 01:46 PM
tbh christians or castes like mussalis in punjab are even more ASI shifted in looks then average urdu speaking muhajir of Karachi. That type of look will be very rare among pashtuns.

yeah thats what I am saying e.g here is a group of Hyderabadi Muslims , all can fit somewhere in Punjab, but none will fit west of it with ease.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/159/411308396_b8778d74ce_b.jpg

pegasus
12-03-2018, 02:00 PM
yeah thats what I am saying e.g here is a group of Hyderabadi Muslims , all can fit somewhere in Punjab, but none will fit west of it with ease.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/159/411308396_b8778d74ce_b.jpg

The dude in the glasses looks different from the Dalits around him, I highly doubt he is one.

passion
12-03-2018, 02:03 PM
The dude in the glasses looks different from the Dalits around him, I highly doubt he is one.

they are not dalits , they are regular Hyderabadi Muslims and the glasses guy is Indian Politician from there Asaduddin Owaisi

pegasus
12-03-2018, 02:11 PM
they are not dalits , they are regular Hyderabadi Muslims and the glasses guy is Indian Politician from there Asaduddin Owaisi

Oh , well they look the same . Though I think mentioned it aeons ago, that those PJL C,D ie Masali /Chamar genome types vanish completely, West of the Indus.

passion
12-03-2018, 02:18 PM
Oh , well they look the same . Though I think mentioned it aeons ago, that those PJL C,D ie Masali /Chamar genome types vanish completely, West of the Indus.

yeah thats what I have been saying and these PJL C, D types create a Pan South Asian look that can pass in most of South Asia.This is not equal to saying people from Punjab to tamil Nadu looks same, because as a group all ethnicities have their own looks imo. I would say over 75% of Punjabis look what you expect them to look, these pan south asian types are minority in Punjab though

pegasus
12-03-2018, 02:31 PM
yeah thats what I have been saying and these PJL C, D types create a Pan South Asian look that can pass in most of South Asia.This is not equal to saying people from Punjab to tamil Nadu looks same, because as a group all ethnicities have their own looks imo. I would say over 75% of Punjabis look what you expect them to look, these pan south asian types are minority in Punjab though

The notable levels of SE Asian in many of the C/D types makes me wonder are they part of the wave of people who brought rice farming into this region from further east and mixed with the locals , or represent a much later movement of people.

Kulin
12-03-2018, 03:10 PM
yeah I was mainly talking about frequencies .Plain Indid types can extend all the way to Tajiks(i am not talking about them) , but I was talking mainly about very dark south asian types that can be found in Punjabis like christians , these types disappear drastically once you cross Indus river. e.g here is a video from a crossroad in Lahore


I think the Northern Indus would be a better term, since a third of Sindh and parts of Southern Punjab lie west of the Indus.

Rahuls77
12-03-2018, 09:13 PM
Not that it's too pressing a matter, but the majority of those people are of the tumandari/sardari class. ie. the familial head of a tribe. Some of those people are royalty, and half Afghan. Some are also Brahui. There are some regular guys though in the photos.

Mostly, light skin colour is, in our geography and many others as well, a result of indoor living, as against toiling in the outdoors, hence a lot of commoners tend to be classed as swarthy.

soulblighter
12-04-2018, 03:44 AM
South Brahmins are generally short, your family seems to have the tall trait however

The working castes are known to be taller in the South, no one associates fair skin with height like they do in the North

Maybe @Varun or @Soulblighter can chime in being actual Bromins

Very late replying... there is wide variation in my family. All males on my mom's side including me are taller than 6 feet and range up to 6'7 with a median and average of 6'4. On my Dad's side, median is only 5'5 and average is a teeny bit more than that.

purohit
12-04-2018, 07:15 AM
We still use Kard for knife and paroon in our area. As well as sugar is called Khand. Chini is very rare, mostly used in urban areas. But I do agree, after partition Punjabi especially in cities have lost a lot of its vocabulary. Like Tah was used bottom, which is of farsi origin, but now it's replaced by Doabi "Thale".

We also call sugar khand in marwari

purohit
12-04-2018, 07:20 AM
Sati is not a Vedic tradition , its seems a tradition brought in by some Central Asian nomads my hunch is the Huns , it starts occurring in Antiquity and centered in Northern India/Gangetic plains to my knowledge. Its unheard of in Southern India. Afaik, fasting for husbands is also a cultural tradition which spread into the mainstream from parts of the North in the Medieval times, its not practiced by Kashmiri Brahmins either.

I know one sati mata temple in my town. A lady from my community became sati 300 years ago. Sati was more common in rajputs

pegasus
12-04-2018, 07:24 AM
I know one sati mata temple in my town. A lady from my community became sati 300 years ago. Sati was more common in rajputs

Yes which proves my point , as the Rajputs in Rajasthan have Hunnic origins. Killing wives and concubines was common among Hunnic nobility.

poi
12-04-2018, 07:37 AM
Very late replying... there is wide variation in my family. All males on my mom's side including me are taller than 6 feet and range up to 6'7 with a median and average of 6'4. On my Dad's side, median is only 5'5 and average is a teeny bit more than that.

I was at a Tamil and a Marathi wedding this summer and the reception dance floor had every other male over 6 and females probably 5'6 +. I'm more curious about their DNA.land genetic height lol

26284729292
12-04-2018, 07:49 AM
I was at a Tamil and a Marathi wedding this summer and the reception dance floor had every other male over 6 and females probably 5'6 +. I'm more curious about their DNA.land genetic height lol

Dnaland has me as a midget and i'm just over 6'1.

purohit
12-04-2018, 07:51 AM
Yes which proves my point , as the Rajputs in Rajasthan have Hunnic origins. Killing wives and concubines was common among Hunnic nobility.

Rajputs are not hunnic origin. They are of mix orgin. Ancient kshatriya and brahmin and Dravidian warrirors.
Chauhan sisodiya and pratihar are of brahmin origin according to incriptions like bijoliya inscription etc

poi
12-04-2018, 08:01 AM
Dnaland has me as a midget and i'm just over 6'1.

What is your dnaland height? It was off by more than half a foot for me, but it was right on for my mom, dad, and the inlaws. I'm still waiting for my wife's traits section to be done. She is probably the tallest Nepali female in this State at 5'7.

purohit
12-04-2018, 08:05 AM
What is your dnaland height? It was off by more than half a foot for me, but it was right on for my mom, dad, and the inlaws. I'm still waiting for my wife's traits section to be done. She is probably the tallest Nepali female in this State at 5'7.

Lol 5'7 tallest? My three aunts are 5'10 5'11 range.
My sister is 5'7.

poi
12-04-2018, 08:11 AM
Lol 5'7 tallest? My three aunts are 5'10 5'11 range.
My sister is 5'7.

5'7 is VERY tall for a female in my group. Most are 5'2. I know the plains people are taller in general. Still, females reaching 5'11(without heels) are giants in any situation, except for in NCAAW Basketball.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 08:25 AM
5'7 is VERY tall for a female in my group. Most are 5'2. I know the plains people are taller in general. Still, females reaching 5'11(without heels) are giants in any situation, except for in NCAAW Basketball.

My mom is 5'8" lmao. And it's very normal for girls to be this tall in my family, both dad and mom side. Very rarely any guy is under 6.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 08:36 AM
Rajputs are not hunnic origin. They are of mix orgin. Ancient kshatriya and brahmin and Dravidian warrirors.
Chauhan sisodiya and pratihar are of brahmin origin according to incriptions like bijoliya inscription etc

Mixed yes but studies suggest a much later ethnogenesis and genetics backs that up . The Rajput of Rajasthan are significantly more AASI shifted then Pushtikars and Jats. Which suggests groups who were lower on the societal hierarchy who mixed with bands of invading nomadic groups . Sati seems central to their cultural code because afaik and researched, sati is not practiced by Brahmins , its first documented mention afaik is in 510 with the Eran Boar along with Sati stones for surprise a Hunnic King :).

pnb123
12-04-2018, 08:36 AM
.....

pnb123
12-04-2018, 08:49 AM
5'7 is VERY tall for a female in my group. Most are 5'2. I know the plains people are taller in general. Still, females reaching 5'11(without heels) are giants in any situation, except for in NCAAW Basketball.
I agree, average height for female in my family & close relatives is around 5’3”.

26284729292
12-04-2018, 10:02 AM
5'7 is VERY tall for a female in my group. Most are 5'2. I know the plains people are taller in general. Still, females reaching 5'11(without heels) are giants in any situation, except for in NCAAW Basketball.


I agree, average height for female in my family & close relatives is around 5’3”.

What is, if any the genotypic height correlation? Because you guys have loads of steppe and are relatively on the shorter end, but I’ve noticed that a lot of high AASI groups have very tall individuals on average.

Sapporo
12-04-2018, 10:03 AM
Looks like people have some tall female family members. Considering my mother is 5'8 and my sister is nearly 6'0, I'm actually not that tall at 6'2.5. Though, within statistical range considering my dad was 6'2 when he was younger. He's probably shrunk to a little over 6'1 now at nearly 60.

agent_lime
12-04-2018, 10:24 AM
5'7 is VERY tall for a female in my group. Most are 5'2. I know the plains people are taller in general. Still, females reaching 5'11(without heels) are giants in any situation, except for in NCAAW Basketball.

My sister is the one of the shortest in my family around 5'2-3. Dad is 5'8, mom 5'4-5. Most males in my family go from 5'9 to 6'1. I'm a little more than 5'10. We would be about average for Khatris that I know.

Kulin
12-04-2018, 02:29 PM
Yes which proves my point , as the Rajputs in Rajasthan have Hunnic origins. Killing wives and concubines was common among Hunnic nobility.

Rajputs are probably a mix of ancient Kshatriyas and nomadic groups from the NW like Saka/Hepthalites etc, similarly with groups like Gujjars and others.

But, Rajput practice of sati is very different to regular Hindu customs of Sati. Rajput men practice Saka (marching to the battlefield with the outcome of fighting to the death) and Rajput women practice Jauhar (mass suicide to avoid getting captured by the invading army).

Interestingly, historically, even Muslim Rajputs have practiced these customs. For e.g., Raja Hasan Khan Mewati and his Meo Rajputs committed Saka/Jauhar during the Battle of Khanwa against the Mughals or, Raja Sahib Khan Rathore and his clan during the sige of Chittorgarh. So, these customs definitely have an external tribal root, rather than from the Hindu religion. Rajputs have adopted certain Persianate traits later on as well, like the Purdah among Rajput women and so on, so it could be foreign influence too.

poi
12-04-2018, 02:53 PM
Rajputs are probably a mix of ancient Kshatriyas and nomadic groups from the NW like Saka/Hepthalites etc, similarly with groups like Gujjars and others.

But, Rajput practice of sati is very different to regular Hindu customs of Sati. Rajput men practice Saka (marching to the battlefield with the outcome of fighting to the death) and Rajput women practice Jauhar (mass suicide to avoid getting captured by the invading army).

Interestingly, historically, even Muslim Rajputs have practiced these customs. For e.g., Raja Hasan Khan Mewati and his Meo Rajputs committed Saka/Jauhar during the Battle of Khanwa against the Mughals or, Raja Sahib Khan Rathore and his clan during the sige of Chittorgarh. So, these customs definitely have an external tribal root, rather than from the Hindu religion. Rajputs have adopted certain Persianate traits later on as well, like the Purdah among Rajput women and so on, so it could be foreign influence too.

Yes, "Sati" afaik is a noun. Shiva's wife who killed herself by burning herself because of her father. That is the term for "Hindu" sati.

The practice of wife burning might have nomadic in origin, but incorporated into Hindu culture of the N/W after the iron age. Still, the practice of wives burning/dying might have been an older custom of the (Eastern) steppes.

Kulin
12-04-2018, 03:08 PM
Yes, "Sati" afaik is a noun. Shiva's wife who killed herself by burning herself because of her father. That is the term for "Hindu" sati.

The practice of wife burning might have nomadic in origin, but incorporated into Hindu culture of the N/W after the iron age. Still, the practice of wives burning/dying might have been an older custom of the (Eastern) steppes.

Yeah, but it has been practiced traditionally by even Hindus in Bengal to the east. It was banned only in 1829 by the Brahmo reformer Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Kashmiri Muslims in the 16th/17th century also used to practice Sati, and vast majority of them are converts from the Kashmiri Pandit community, so the practice thus indeed probably points to an Indo-Aryan/Steppe origin as its traditionally mostly practiced by higher caste groups.

But, the Rajput practice of Saka/Jauhar probably has an origin of its own since its sort of a different concept. Rajput practice of Saka/Jauhar is more similar to Japanese Samurai practice of Harakiri/Sepukku.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 03:09 PM
Yes, "Sati" afaik is a noun. Shiva's wife who killed herself by burning herself because of her father. That is the term for "Hindu" sati.

The practice of wife burning might have nomadic in origin, but incorporated into Hindu culture of the N/W after the iron age. Still, the practice of wives burning/dying might have been an older custom of the (Eastern) steppes.

No it did not exist with Andronovo or later Karasuk or Tagar, horse sacrifices was their thing esp with Sintashta and Andronovo. There are literally thousands of stories in the Shiv/Shakti branch. Though its not part of the Vedic and Upanishad school of thought and again these are foreign Antiquity influences became incorporated with local themes/Agama, in the same way Greek astrology aspects was incorporated into Vedic Astrology.

poi
12-04-2018, 03:23 PM
Yeah, but it has been practiced traditionally by even Hindus in Bengal to the east. It was banned only in 1829 by the Brahmo reformer Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Kashmiri Muslims in the 16th/17th century also used to practice Sati, and vast majority of them are converts from the Kashmiri Pandit community, so the practice thus indeed probably points to an Indo-Aryan/Steppe origin as its traditionally mostly practiced by higher caste groups.

But, the Rajput practice of Saka/Jauhar probably has an origin of its own since its sort of a different concept. Rajput practice of Saka/Jauhar is more similar to Japanese Samurai practice of Harakiri/Sepukku.


No it did not exist with Andronovo or later Karasuk or Tagar, horse sacrifices was their thing esp with Sintashta and Andronovo. There are literally thousands of stories in the Shiv/Shakti branch. Though its not part of the Vedic and Upanishad school of thought and again these are foreign Antiquity influences became incorporated with local themes/Agama, in the same way Greek astrology aspects was incorporated into Vedic Astrology.

Kullin and Pegasus are definitely differing regarding this topic. I don't think Sati(the practice) is of "IndoAryan" origin, if we define "IndoAryan" as Vedic, so agreed with Pegasus. If, however, "IndoAryan" means practices of upper-caste/aristocracy Hindus, regardless of Vedic origin, I am in agreement with Kullin. And spread of this "culture" to Bengali upper castes do not surprise at all.

Basically, the practice of Sati was not part of IndoAryan culture of the Brahmins/Kshatriyas/Shudras/Vaishyas even up until the epic age, as stories/mythologies surrounding the widows are too numerous and none mentioned Sati until the late Iron Age, so the practice must have become part of their culture after incorporating the practice from outside.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 03:34 PM
Yeah, but it has been practiced traditionally by even Hindus in Bengal to the east. It was banned only in 1829 by the Brahmo reformer Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Kashmiri Muslims in the 16th/17th century also used to practice Sati, and vast majority of them are converts from the Kashmiri Pandit community, so the practice thus indeed probably points to an Indo-Aryan/Steppe origin as its traditionally mostly practiced by higher caste groups.

Kashmiri Brahmin women do not commit sati, there were rumors of it but they become ascetics patronizing Lal Ded, this is the tradition and this was never patronized by them. Also sati stones are meant for warriors and their wives. Kashmiri Brahmins were never were a warrior community, they relied on Jammu Rajputs for that and later Sikhs for protection, with the former patronizing them.
Honestly thats a Rajput /Dogra thing and sati stones are largely likely theirs even the ones in the Valley. Also Kashmiri kings ironically did not come from the valley they descend from Rajput groups living in Jammu. Also extremely doubt Kashmiri Muslim women committing Sati, even if they were recent converts.

I really would not posit much on Rajataragini's chronicles they really are off the deep end.

Kulin
12-04-2018, 03:47 PM
Kashmiri Brahmin women do not commit sati, there were rumors of it but they become ascetics patronizing Lal Ded, this is the tradition and this was never patronized by them. Also sati stones are meant for warriors and their wives. Kashmiri Brahmins were never were a warrior community, they relied on Jammu Rajputs for that and later Sikhs for protection, with the former patronizing them.
Honestly thats a Rajput /Dogra thing and sati stones are largely likely theirs even the ones in the Valley. Also Kashmiri kings ironically did not come from the valley they descend from Rajput groups living in Jammu. Also extremely doubt Kashmiri Muslim women committing Sati, even if they were recent converts.

I really would not posit much on Rajataragini's chronicles they really are off the deep end.

It's actually from Mughal chronices, but you're right. It wasn't by ethnic Kashmiri Muslims but Muslims from Rajouri, a part of Jammu/Mirpur. These Muslims are probably (Jarral) Rajputs then. I misread the location.

http://i66.tinypic.com/15p3b6c.jpg
Sati: Historical and Phenomenological Essay

poi
12-04-2018, 03:54 PM
Kashmiri Brahmin women do not commit sati, there were rumors of it but they become ascetics patronizing Lal Ded, this is the tradition and this was never patronized by them. Also sati stones are meant for warriors and their wives. Kashmiri Brahmins were never were a warrior community, they relied on Jammu Rajputs for that and later Sikhs for protection, with the former patronizing them.
Honestly thats a Rajput /Dogra thing and sati stones are largely likely theirs even the ones in the Valley. Also Kashmiri kings ironically did not come from the valley they descend from Rajput groups living in Jammu. Also extremely doubt Kashmiri Muslim women committing Sati, even if they were recent converts.

I really would not posit much on Rajataragini's chronicles they really are off the deep end.

That is true for all 625 million Indian (women) lol. The last "Sati" was in the early 90s. If someone does it again, it will be a huge news event. In the meantime, there are (hundreds of) thousands of cases of female infanticide and millions of cases of domestic abuse that go hush-hush. Talking about Sati is sexy, I grant you that. It makes for sensational news and the topic of conversation.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 03:55 PM
It's actually from Mughal chronices, but you're right. It wasn't by ethnic Kashmiri Muslims but Muslims from Rajouri, a part of Jammu/Mirpur. These Muslims are probably (Jarral) Rajputs then. I misread the location.

http://i66.tinypic.com/15p3b6c.jpg
Sati: Historical and Phenomenological Essay

Rajputs in those regions knew which bloodline they converted from. And I'd imagine the influenced families still kept some traditions even after converting for long time.

Reminds me of Jathera worshipping, which is still practiced in Punjab and neighbouring regions by some Sikh biradaris even after converting to Sikhism.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 03:59 PM
That is true for all 625 million Indians lol. The last "Sati" was in the early 90s. If someone does it again, it will be a huge news event. In the meantime, there are (hundreds of) thousands of cases of female infanticide and millions of cases of domestic abuse that go hush-hush. Talking about Sati is sexy, I grant you that. It makes for sensational news and the topic of conversation.

I think its incidence was much lower than what is indicated , because given the fact lifespans were low at that rate they would be Sati burnings every other day. Also the main agricultural communities in NW like the Jats never practiced it all, they typically made widows marry a younger brother or close male relative of their dead husband and I believe this continues today from what I read since many of them are in the army.

poi
12-04-2018, 04:01 PM
Rajputs in those regions knew which bloodline they converted from. And I'd imagine the influenced families still kept some traditions even after converting for long time.

Reminds me of Jathera worshipping, which is still practiced in Punjab and neighbouring regions by some Sikh biradaris even after converting to Sikhism.

Religion/culture/identity etc are so intertwined, so "conversion" really was likely about one or two of those for any given group -- most of the time. Some groups might have pure religious motives, but kept their "original" culture and identity, while others converted for identity reasons with not much regard for the underlying religious philosophies. It is a complex issue in any transition. I'm sure people become more identity based when they perceive external threats, but internally they don't give a damn about the underlying philosophy of any particular religion.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 04:09 PM
Kullin and Pegasus are definitely differing regarding this topic. I don't think Sati(the practice) is of "IndoAryan" origin, if we define "IndoAryan" as Vedic, so agreed with Pegasus. If, however, "IndoAryan" means practices of upper-caste/aristocracy Hindus, regardless of Vedic origin, I am in agreement with Kullin. And spread of this "culture" to Bengali upper castes do not surprise at all.

Basically, the practice of Sati was not part of IndoAryan culture of the Brahmins/Kshatriyas/Shudras/Vaishyas even up until the epic age, as stories/mythologies surrounding the widows are too numerous and none mentioned Sati until the late Iron Age, so the practice must have become part of their culture after incorporating the practice from outside.

I would not consider it an Indo Aryan tradition at all tbh, even if medieval Indo Aryan speaking communities were indulging in at a later point since it has no basis with the actual Indo Aryans who brought Sanskrit.
Ironically those early Indo Aryan women in the Swat were buried quite royally compared to the men.

Kulin
12-04-2018, 04:15 PM
^ It was also practiced by the Dardic Shina of Gilgit as well up until the late 18th century (before conversion to Islam), but the practice was last undertaken by a Shina man in 1877.

Tribes of the Hindoo Koosh. Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing. p. 114. Women's urns are readily distinguished by a number of wooden spindle whorls, mixed with the bones. ... in Gilgit, Gor, Hunza, and Nager, that suttee was formerly practiced. The dead man, with his finest clothes and his weapons girded on him was placed on the pyre, and as the fire burnt up, the woman arrayed in her jewellery and her richest clothes, leaped into the flames. The burning of the dead ceased to be practised more than sixty years ago. ... in 1877, a very old man in Darel scandalised his neighbors by calling his sons to him on his death bed, and after having his arms and valuables brought to him, desiring to be burnt with them when dead ... He and a man of Gor, who died twenty years ago, are known to have always refused to be circumcized, or to call themselves Mohommedans. They were probably the very last Hindus in Dangaristan.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 04:18 PM
^ It was also practiced by the Dardic Shina of Gilgit as well up until the late 18th century (before conversion to Islam), but the practice was last undertaken by a Shina man in 1877.

Tribes of the Hindoo Koosh. Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing. p. 114. Women's urns are readily distinguished by a number of wooden spindle whorls, mixed with the bones. ... in Gilgit, Gor, Hunza, and Nager, that suttee was formerly practiced. The dead man, with his finest clothes and his weapons girded on him was placed on the pyre, and as the fire burnt up, the woman arrayed in her jewellery and her richest clothes, leaped into the flames. The burning of the dead ceased to be practised more than sixty years ago. ... in 1877, a very old man in Darel scandalised his neighbors by calling his sons to him on his death bed, and after having his arms and valuables brought to him, desiring to be burnt with them when dead ... He and a man of Gor, who died twenty years ago, are known to have always refused to be circumcized, or to call themselves Mohommedans. They were probably the very last Hindus in Dangaristan.

Very fascinating, so Hindus in those regions existed not long ago. But were they local people or migrants?

Kulin
12-04-2018, 04:21 PM
Very fascinating, so Hindus in those regions existed not long ago. But were they local people or migrants?

Locals. Dardic people up there still have certain pre-Islamic customs like the veneration of Deodar/Devadaru (Himalayan Cedar), and their tribal names are also usually of Sanskrit origin. I mean the Kalasha still practice a form of Vedic Hinduism, and Nuristan/Kafiristan also did until the 19th century, but those in Gilgit probably practiced more mainstream Hinduism since its closer to the Kashmir valley, once a bastion of Shaivism.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 04:30 PM
Locals. Dardic people up there still have certain pre-Islamic customs like the veneration of Deodar/Devadaru (Himalayan Cedar), and their tribal names are also usually of Sanskrit origin. I mean the Kalasha still practice a form of Vedic Hinduism, and Nuristan/Kafiristan also did until the 19th century, but those in Gilgit probably practiced more mainstream Hinduism since its closer to the Kashmir valley, once a bastion of Shaivism.

Just did some research, so the Dards were practicing Hinduism, while the Tibetan like population were Buddhists.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 04:35 PM
Also during a discussion with mom I found out about folk religion in Punjab, which predates Sikhism and was most likely practiced by majority before conversion to Sikhism. A lot of these rituals are still practiced. It's a shame that my generation is unaware of this, and just believed what was taught in books that we followed mainstream Hinduism before conversion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_folk_religion



People visit the jathera when getting married, the 15th of the Indian month and sometimes on the first Sunday of an Indian month. The descendants of the elder go to a pond and dig earth and make shivlinga and some put it on the mound of their jathera and offer ghee and flowers to the Jathera.So, It is a form of shivlinga puja also. In some villages it is customary to offer flour.[4]

Can confirm this part, Shiva was primarily worshipped in comparison to other Hindu dieties, makes me think if Shiva was IVC god and stayed big in IVC land and diaspora population in rest of the subcontinent. There is a Big Shiva temple in a village called Bhoot Bains in Nawan shehr region. People from all over punjab come there on shivratri, especially who's "Ghar da guru" is Shiva. Every house has a Ghar da guru, which are either some pirs, martyrs, old religious figures or saints. My ghar da guru is Shiva, although we abolished the practice in recent generations. My maternal side's Ghar da guru is "Baba sri chand", the son of Guru Nanak Dev ji, who became a yogi.

poi
12-04-2018, 04:39 PM
I would not consider it an Indo Aryan tradition at all tbh, even if medieval Indo Aryan speaking communities were indulging in at a later point since it has no basis with the actual Indo Aryans who brought Sanskrit.
Ironically those early Indo Aryan women in the Swat were buried quite royally compared to the men.

One of the burning issue for me, no pun, is cremation. What are your thoughts on cremation(at least of males) in the Vedic period? Children and yogis aren't cremated to this day, but when did women start being cremated?

poi
12-04-2018, 04:42 PM
Also during a discussion with mom I found out about folk religion in Punjab, which predates Sikhism and was most likely practiced by majority before conversion to Sikhism. A lot of these rituals are still practiced. It's a shame that my generation is unaware of this, and just believed what was taught in books that we followed mainstream Hinduism before conversion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_folk_religion

I don't think there is a "mainstream" Hinduism, unless you count the Brahminical rituals as mainstream, since those are used in important Hindu events like marriage and death. I guess pandits reciting vedic mantras during those events, women wearing sindur, men wearing jenai, etc. would be the only things common across various sects of Hinduism.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 04:42 PM
Locals. Dardic people up there still have certain pre-Islamic customs like the veneration of Deodar/Devadaru (Himalayan Cedar), and their tribal names are also usually of Sanskrit origin. I mean the Kalasha still practice a form of Vedic Hinduism, and Nuristan/Kafiristan also did until the 19th century, but those in Gilgit probably practiced more mainstream Hinduism since its closer to the Kashmir valley, once a bastion of Shaivism.

Yes, Shina use Sing often as their last name and yes they practiced Hinduism till the 19th century. Kalash do Suri Jagek/ Suri Jago which they do for their festivals ( Suri = Sun Jagek/Jago= to be awake) and their one festival Chawmos is a Winter solstice festival similar to the Lohri festival , in which people dance around the fire and offer peanuts , in the case of Kalash its walnuts , has its origin in Agni worship

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 04:46 PM
One of the burning issue for me, no pun, is cremation. What are your thoughts on cremation(at least of males) in the Vedic period? Children and yogis aren't cremated to this day, but when did women start being cremated?

Wait they don't cremate children? Or is it Nepal thing, because Children in punjab are cremated as far as I know, there.wefe two deaths in my relatives and both were cremated.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 04:52 PM
I don't think there is a "mainstream" Hinduism, unless you count the Brahminical rituals as mainstream, since those are used in important Hindu events like marriage and death. I guess pandits reciting vedic mantras during those events, women wearing sindur, men wearing jenai, etc. would be the only things common across various sects of Hinduism.

Mainstream Hinduism is what's practiced now all over the subcontinent, which is pretty same, in terms of Dev and Devis, the style of performing rituals etc, especially in urban areas. Villages still have their distinct variations. I was still finishing the post you quoted, so check out what I added to it.

RougeS
12-04-2018, 04:58 PM
Traditionally, on the first day of Navratri people in Punjab sow pulses, cereals and other seeds in a pot which is watered for nine days at the end of which the seeds sprout. This custom is known as "Khetri". It signifies prosperity and abundance. It is very important to plant grains of barley in a pot. On the tenth day, the shoots are about 3 - 5 inches in length. On Dussehra Goddess Gorja (Goddess Parvati),[10] in the form of seedlings, is covered with a piece of red cloth and worshipped and propitiated. After saying prayers, these seedlings or the "Khetri" is submerged in water on Dussehra. This custom suggests a link to harvesting. The sowing and reaping of barley is symbolic of the "first fruit".[11][12]
I had been wondering if Indian had this tradition but seems like Punjabis do.We call this khetri "jamara ropne"(planting barley) and conduct pujas daily till the 10th day.However, we submerge it in the river in the 15th day unlike Punjabis(10th day).
Worship of Shiva and Sakti seems prominent everywhere..

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 05:03 PM
I had been wondering if Indian had this tradition but seems like Punjabis do.We call this khetri "jamara ropne"(planting barley) and conduct pujas daily till the 10th day.However, we submerge it in the river in the 15th day unlike Punjabis(10th day).
Worship of Shiva and Sakti seems prominent everywhere..

Shiva predates other Hindu gods imo, it was most likely IVC in origin, and considering how it's always shown in a certain dressing style, it probably came via IVC as well. Barhma and Vishnu are fair, while shiva is Dark, probably pointing toward brahma and Vishnu being contribution of Indo aryans.

The Khetri tradition most likely reached Nepal via the pahari people, or probably brought by Khas when they arrived to Nepal via North.

Kulin
12-04-2018, 05:12 PM
Shiva predates other Hindu gods imo, it was most likely IVC in origin, and considering how it's always shown in a certain dressing style, it probably came via IVC as well. Barhma and Vishnu are fair, while shiva is Dark, probably pointing toward brahma and Vishnu being contribution of Indo aryans.

The Khetri tradition most likely reached Nepal via the pahari people, or probably brought by Khas when they arrived to Nepal via North.

Krishna is often said to be dark skinned (Shyama), and he's an incarnation of Vishnu, so Vishnu often depicted in blue or sometimes lighter toned is probably also dark skinned. But, Vishnu also appears in the Rigveda and is an original IA deity so its most likely a latter innovation.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 05:15 PM
Shiva predates other Hindu gods imo, it was most likely IVC in origin, and considering how it's always shown in a certain dressing style, it probably came via IVC as well. Barhma and Vishnu are fair, while shiva is Dark, probably pointing toward brahma and Vishnu being contribution of Indo aryans.

Most contemporary Hinduism is likely IVC + BMAC related , both Vaishnite and Shivite branches are very likely IVC rooted. Shiva is not dark , he is depicted as Blue to depict show divinity as well taking negativity/poison onto himself but one should keep in mind the first modern Shiva statues emerge with Indo Greeks in Gandhara and more so in Mathura. Goddess worship is likely the most ancient, but the variant practiced with NW , is BMAC influenced for sure and we know that because its seen in Avestan but its absent in later East Iranic groups.

poi
12-04-2018, 05:22 PM
Wait they don't cremate children? Or is it Nepal thing, because Children in punjab are cremated as far as I know, there.wefe two deaths in my relatives and both were cremated.

I think the reason is in the motive for the cremation ritual -- salvation. Children are not considered papi/sinners, so they need not go through the cremation ritual. But I don't know much about this though.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 05:24 PM
Krishna is often said to be dark skinned (Shyama), and he's an incarnation of Vishnu, so Vishnu often depicted in blue or sometimes lighter toned is probably also dark skinned. But, Vishnu also appears in the Rigveda and is an original IA deity so its most likely a latter innovation.

The Vishnu in the Rig Ved is not the same, ditto Rudra commonly associated with Shiva. In the early Vedic world, Indra was basically the main deity, that changes in the Upanishads when there is a shift to meta physical concepts and absorption of likely late IVC beliefs comes and those nomenclatures are merged and those deities become centralized. So while the nomenclature is in Sanskrit, the main branches like Vaishnites and Shivites are of IVC origin and the exclusively Goddess related groups are of BMAC as well as Sumerian origin.

poi
12-04-2018, 06:04 PM
The Vishnu in the Rig Ved is not the same, ditto Rudra commonly associated with Shiva. In the early Vedic world, Indra was basically the main deity, that changes in the Upanishads when there is a shift to meta physical concepts and absorption of likely late IVC beliefs comes and those nomenclatures are merged and those deities become centralized. So while the nomenclature is in Sanskrit, the main branches like Vaishnites and Shivites are of IVC origin and the exclusively Goddess related groups are of BMAC as well as Sumerian origin.

I disagree on a lot of what you said there because you are applying standard of other post-IronAge religions into "Hinduism". By that token, "Hinduism" doesn't exist either and neither does any of its sects as "changes" have been made. And attributing the catch-all "IVC" and "BMAC" on these is just oversimplification at the expense of what is documented. Of course Vishnu "is the same". Ditto for Shiva/Rudra too because Rudra is Shiva in Rigveda.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv10092.htm


stomaṃ vo adya rudrāya śikvase kṣayadvīrāya namasādidiṣṭana |
yebhiḥ śivaḥ svavānevayāvabhirdivaḥsiṣakti svayaśā nikāmabhiḥ ||

pegasus
12-04-2018, 06:21 PM
I disagree on a lot of what you said there because you are applying standard of other post-IronAge religions into "Hinduism". By that token, "Hinduism" doesn't exist either and neither does any of its sects as "changes" have been made. And attributing the catch-all "IVC" and "BMAC" on these is just oversimplification at the expense of what is documented. Of course Vishnu "is the same". Ditto for Shiva/Rudra too because Rudra is Shiva in Rigveda.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv10092.htm


stomaṃ vo adya rudrāya śikvase kṣayadvīrāya namasādidiṣṭana |
yebhiḥ śivaḥ svavānevayāvabhirdivaḥsiṣakti svayaśā nikāmabhiḥ ||


Thats because your viewing it from a contemporary perspective and projecting likely accrued perspectives on to them. Ditto goes for Saraswati/Harawati , she is not a goddess with a veena in this time but more of a Water goddess associated with purity. You do have to go through Avesta surprisingly to formulate an accurate picture in order to discern what carries through from the Steppe and BMAC. Rudra is a secondary deity in the Rig Veda, that would be almost unheard of today, because of his connection with Shiva. If it was indeed written with a contemporary zeitgeist , Indra would have been replaced with Shiva right? Thats not the case.

There is nothing catch all, its a likely reality and based of late Sarianidi's work and a few other Russian scientists they are pretty spot on.

Kulin
12-04-2018, 06:36 PM
I like how this thread is called চেহারা (Chehara) as in face, but discussions have gone way beyond the original subject matter on phenotype. :lol:

pnb123
12-04-2018, 06:38 PM
Thats because your viewing it from a contemporary perspective and projecting likely accrued perspectives on to them. Ditto goes for Saraswati/Harawati , she is not a goddess with a veena in this time but more of a Water goddess associated with purity. You do have to go through Avesta surprisingly to formulate an accurate picture in order to discern what carries through from the Steppe and BMAC. Rudra is a secondary deity in the Rig Veda, that would be almost unheard of today, because of his connection with Shiva. If it was indeed written with a contemporary zeitgeist , Indra would have been replaced with Shiva right? Thats not the case.

There is nothing catch all, its a likely reality and based of late Sarianidi's work and a few other Russian scientists they are pretty spot on.

Indra was the main deity of Rig Veda, but in later texts he’s depicted as cheater, deceiver, coward, etc. So people of IVC must’ve been pretty furious towards those Indo Aryans right?

poi
12-04-2018, 06:45 PM
Thats because your viewing it from a contemporary perspective and projecting likely accrued perspectives on to them. Ditto goes for Saraswati/Harawati , she is not a goddess with a veena in this time but more of a Water goddess associated with purity. You do have to go through Avesta surprisingly to formulate an accurate picture in order to discern what carries through from the Steppe and BMAC. Rudra is a secondary deity in the Rig Veda, that would be almost unheard of today, because of his connection with Shiva. If it was indeed written with a contemporary zeitgeist , Indra would have been replaced with Shiva right? Thats not the case.

There is nothing catch all, its a likely reality and based of late Sarianidi's work and a few other Russian scientists they are pretty spot on.

Who is talking about veena and sari lol. And being secondary deity is irrelevant, because -- in RigVeda -- everybody except for Indra and Agri can be "secondary". Again, this is exactly what I mean by you using some strange standard. I am not going against the core of your message, which is -- changes happened and a lot was incorporated. Only a fool or a zealot will disagree.

poi
12-04-2018, 06:47 PM
I like how this thread is called চেহারা (Chehara) as in face, but discussions have gone way beyond the original subject matter on phenotype. :lol:

Hopefully the ban hammer does not strike from the mods. I will stop

Kulin
12-04-2018, 06:48 PM
Hopefully the ban hammer does not strike from the mods. I will stop

I don't think they care, as long as we don't start guessing phenotype and stuff like that lol.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 06:49 PM
Indra was the main deity of Rig Veda, but in later texts he’s depicted as cheater, deceiver, coward, etc. So people of IVC must’ve been pretty furious towards those Indo Aryans right?

No, its not so simple as his name is still associated with having plenty and his suffix in names remains very common ie inder or indra. I don't think it has to to with the IVC folk at all. Its just new ideas came and took root.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 06:51 PM
Who is talking about veena and sari lol. And being secondary deity is irrelevant, because -- in RigVeda -- everybody except for Indra and Agri can be "secondary". Again, this is exactly what I mean by you using some strange standard. I am not going against the core of your message, which is -- changes happened and a lot was incorporated. Only a fool or a zealot will disagree.

Your misconstruing what I am saying, so I will stop here. PM me and now its heading beyond the scope of this forum.

Also there is nothing strange most of the Rig Ved, is indeed largely dedicated to Indra or Agni. Actually by secondary what the implication is the importance placed, that shifts . You can see it with many ancient religions, Judaism is a good example of that too.

pegasus
12-04-2018, 07:16 PM
I don't think they care, as long as we don't start guessing phenotype and stuff like that lol.

though its a more healthier pursuit than discussing Sati in the morning lol

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2018, 09:23 PM
Yea this discussion is way better than who can pass where and if having hots of your cousins is right. Way less controversial, at least for now.

26284729292
12-04-2018, 11:28 PM
Yea this discussion is way better than who can pass where and if having hots of your cousins is right. Way less controversial, at least for now.

The whole pass thing is kinda much IMO. People for the most part know where they can pass. I find that discussing how genotype ties to phenotype with examples is the most interesting and productive thing, as Bmoney and I were getting at about 10 pages back with the whole IVC thing.

poi
12-04-2018, 11:54 PM
Does anyone have a list of phenotype-altering SNPs/alleles? It would be cool to build a tool that that uses the individual data file and gives a report on, for example, genetic eye socket depth lol

Edit - SNPedia has a bunch. https://snpedia.com/index.php/Category:Topic

But don't see one for eye sockets :(

DMXX
12-05-2018, 12:16 AM
There isn't a comprehensive list anywhere, I'm afraid. Partial lists can be found in various places (SNPedia's looks a bit outdated). It'd be near-impossible for lay folk to generate forensics-equivalent lists without full institutional access (Sci Hub doesn't usually include the supplementary files which have these).

(P.S. check your PM's; I'd like you to tell me how ANE my eye sockets are on a scale from 0 to Altai, don't hurt my feelings)

soulblighter
12-05-2018, 01:55 AM
I was at a Tamil and a Marathi wedding this summer and the reception dance floor had every other male over 6 and females probably 5'6 +. I'm more curious about their DNA.land genetic height lol

Yes, those a decade or more younger than me, seem to be significantly taller compared to my peers during that age even through they are from the same genetic pool.
I think since the 1970s, average height in all of India regardless of ethnicity has gone up significantly every decade because of access to nutrition and better health and so that isn't entirely surprising (there are still marginalized groups that are struggling like they were in the past in remote rural areas sadly).

khanabadoshi
12-05-2018, 02:25 AM
I don't think they care, as long as we don't start guessing phenotype and stuff like that lol.

So long as the tangent doesn't continue for a few pages, I don't care. All I'd do is split it off into a new thread if the discussion goes longer.

Now, the next person to post their 3rd cousin and ask us to guess where they are from and if they pass in Estonia is getting banned.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-05-2018, 02:34 AM
So long as the tangent doesn't continue for a few pages, I don't care. All I'd do is split it off into a new thread if the discussion goes longer.

Now, the next person to post their 3rd cousin and ask us to guess where they are from and if they pass in Estonia is getting banned.

But asking if their cousin would pass in High school, that's ban worthy as well?

poi
12-05-2018, 02:42 AM
But asking if their cousin would pass in High school, that's ban worthy as well?

hahaha.

But that'll teach em.

Censored
12-05-2018, 02:53 AM
So long as the tangent doesn't continue for a few pages, I don't care. All I'd do is split it off into a new thread if the discussion goes longer.

Now, the next person to post their 3rd cousin and ask us to guess where they are from and if they pass in Estonia is getting banned.

Can we debate who, if anyone, among South Asians is good looking?

DMXX
12-05-2018, 02:57 AM
Can we debate who, if anyone, among South Asians is good looking?

There never was a debate.

(bored, please sign that picture of you I sent pretty please)

MonkeyDLuffy
12-05-2018, 03:03 AM
Can we debate who, if anyone, among South Asians is good looking?

The amount of attention my boi Bored is getting, I'd say Bored. There is no debate lol.

Censored
12-05-2018, 03:08 AM
The amount of attention my boi Bored is getting, I'd say Bored. There is no debate lol.

I was actually talking about ethnic groups.

DMXX
12-05-2018, 03:10 AM
Of all your soulful creations, My Lord,
Few surpass the majesty of humble 'bored';
2014 he entered our place,
We're forever enchanted,
In both time and space;
Seldom do I decree such missives of joy,
Or behave in such manners I'd describe as not coy;
But pushed to the brink,
Heart and mind left compressed,
By you, O 'bored',
We are so eternally blessed

MonkeyDLuffy
12-05-2018, 03:11 AM
I was actually talking about ethnic groups.

27508

Censored
12-05-2018, 03:22 AM
27508

The question now becomes "should we?"

MonkeyDLuffy
12-05-2018, 03:27 AM
The question now becomes "should we?"

If you want to start a flamewar, couple of bans along with thread closed, sure.

26284729292
12-05-2018, 03:29 AM
If you want to start a flamewar, couple of bans along with thread closed, sure.

Please no

Censored
12-05-2018, 03:40 AM
If you want to start a flamewar, couple of bans along with thread closed, sure.

The thread is already on its way out tho so i figured why not.

26284729292
12-05-2018, 03:44 AM
The thread is already on its way out tho so i figured why not.

Nah it’s ok. It’s a lot of tangents but we’re pretry committed to not breaking rules and people here are pretty self aware.

To answer you though, we can generalize but it’s insensitive but there are good looking people across India. That about as much as I’d like to comment on that topic.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-05-2018, 03:48 AM
The thread is already on its way out tho so i figured why not.

The ban hammer comes free with it, not the deal anyone is looking for.

Censored
12-05-2018, 04:06 AM
Nah it’s ok. It’s a lot of tangents but we’re pretry committed to not breaking rules and people here are pretty self aware.

To answer you though, we can generalize but it’s insensitive but there are good looking people across India. That about as much as I’d like to comment on that topic.

I was just joking lol. But I just dont think its a big deal to talk about attractiveness when we have talked about height, color, phenotype, culture, etc. already.

poi
12-05-2018, 04:41 AM
I was just joking lol. But I just dont think its a big deal to talk about attractiveness when we have talked about height, color, phenotype, culture, etc. already.

I think flamewars only occur, especially when people are talking about height, color, and phenotype, is when the topic becomes attractiveness. All other topics have some level of objectivity, but attractiveness is very subjective, particularly when you mix in (no pun) all ethnicities. The only place where attractiveness discussion does not get into flamewar would be the makeup forums. And, no, I do not frequent those, just guessing. I can't imagine people throwing tantrums over eyeliner choices.

26284729292
12-05-2018, 05:01 AM
I was just joking lol. But I just dont think its a big deal to talk about attractiveness when we have talked about height, color, phenotype, culture, etc. already.

I think we do. Because talking about them individually is different than generalizing them to certain groups and then indicating ones preferences toward certain groups/traits. It can be harmless, but itís a slippery slope.

bored
12-05-2018, 05:06 AM
Of all your soulful creations, My Lord,
Few surpass the majesty of humble 'bored';
2014 he entered our place,
We're forever enchanted,
In both time and space;
Seldom do I decree such missives of joy,
Or behave in such manners I'd describe as not coy;
But pushed to the brink,
Heart and mind left compressed,
By you, O 'bored',
We are so eternally blessed

Lmao thatís a sick poem

prashantvaidwan
12-05-2018, 06:18 AM
I think its incidence was much lower than what is indicated , because given the fact lifespans were low at that rate they would be Sati burnings every other day. Also the main agricultural communities in NW like the Jats never practiced it all, they typically made widows marry a younger brother or close male relative of their dead husband and I believe this continues today from what I read since many of them are in the army.
I can confirm it and this form of marrriage was common in many groups in the past..Scythians and huns as well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

Rahuls77
12-05-2018, 08:59 AM
Who is talking about veena and sari lol. And being secondary deity is irrelevant, because -- in RigVeda -- everybody except for Indra and Agri can be "secondary". Again, this is exactly what I mean by you using some strange standard. I am not going against the core of your message, which is -- changes happened and a lot was incorporated. Only a fool or a zealot will disagree.

Why does nobody consider the role of Varuna as one of the more prominent deities, along with Mitra. Hymns to the two actually give us some hint about the proto-indo-european religion, the world-conception and knowledge, of ethics, the whole epistemology of the moderns has some very strong basis in that.

laltota
12-05-2018, 11:59 AM
Also during a discussion with mom I found out about folk religion in Punjab, which predates Sikhism and was most likely practiced by majority before conversion to Sikhism. A lot of these rituals are still practiced. It's a shame that my generation is unaware of this, and just believed what was taught in books that we followed mainstream Hinduism before conversion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_folk_religion




Can confirm this part, Shiva was primarily worshipped in comparison to other Hindu dieties, makes me think if Shiva was IVC god and stayed big in IVC land and diaspora population in rest of the subcontinent. There is a Big Shiva temple in a village called Bhoot Bains in Nawan shehr region. People from all over punjab come there on shivratri, especially who's "Ghar da guru" is Shiva. Every house has a Ghar da guru, which are either some pirs, martyrs, old religious figures or saints. My ghar da guru is Shiva, although we abolished the practice in recent generations. My maternal side's Ghar da guru is "Baba sri chand", the son of Guru Nanak Dev ji, who became a yogi.

Bhut (Bhoot) and Bains are two different villages next to each other. My village is also next door to Bains.

Regarding the Shiv mandir in Bains, I have to say I never heard about it when we lived in our village. I also checked with my mother , she is not aware of such a mandir in Bains as being something that people from all over Punjab visited, or at least it is not something everyone living locally around Bains visited on Shivratri. It must be visited on Shivratri by those who are attached to that particular mandir, which could still be many people from all over. I cant see a "Shiv mandir" in Bains on the map. There is one nearby to boundary of Naura village, perhaps it is that one? I can see on map there is a Ramgarhia Gurdwara in Bains.

My mother's maternal village has a tiny Shiv Diwala. It was very small inside, enough for a couple of people and it had a low roof as well. As a child I went inside a few times with my cousin in the evening when a Brahmin guy would do puja for a short while. The guy would do his chanting in Sanskrit I guess, and blow on the large conk shell and maybe ring a bell I cant remember now. So it was kind of fun for us whilst he did his stuff.

Regarding this "Ghar the guru" we dont have anything like that in our family in the known period, and neither do any of our relatives, but your family did and also others have or had that, or something similar no doubt, in some form or another as you said.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-05-2018, 02:06 PM
Bhut (Bhoot) and Bains are two different villages next to each other. My village is also next door to Bains.

Regarding the Shiv mandir in Bains, I have to say I never heard about it when we lived in our village. I also checked with my mother , she is not aware of such a mandir in Bains as being something that people from all over Punjab visited, or at least it is not something everyone living locally around Bains visited on Shivratri. It must be visited on Shivratri by those who are attached to that particular mandir, which could still be many people from all over. I cant see a "Shiv mandir" in Bains on the map. There is one nearby to boundary of Naura village, perhaps it is that one? I can see on map there is a Ramgarhia Gurdwara in Bains.

My mother's maternal village has a tiny Shiv Diwala. It was very small inside, enough for a couple of people and it had a low roof as well. As a child I went inside a few times with my cousin in the evening when a Brahmin guy would do puja for a short while. The guy would do his chanting in Sanskrit I guess, and blow on the large conk shell and maybe ring a bell I cant remember now. So it was kind of fun for us whilst he did his stuff.

Regarding this "Ghar the guru" we dont have anything like that in our family in the known period, and neither do any of our relatives, but your family did and also others have or had that, or something similar no doubt, in some form or another as you said.

Just made a call to my mom to confirm Location lol. The Mandir is visited by people who's Ghar da guru is Shiv. It's from Garshankar Banga road, near Naura. But whenever my family mentioned the place, they mentioned as "Bhoot Bains".

The Mela is fairly big to miss, I've been there few times and it was always very crowded. I think there was a small sarovar inside as well and the mandir was really old looking.

And I'm not surprised if you guys don't have Ghar da guru tradition, a lot of families who are orthodox about Sikhism have abolished it. A lot of my friends from pinds don't even know about Jathere anymore, which is ancestor worshipping. My bua's Ghar da guru is Baba Gurdita ji, son of Guru Hargobind singh ji and they go to Kiratpur gurudwara every year I don't know the exact date.

Similarly my Dhaliwal buddy's go to this "Dhaliwalan da gurudwara" somewhere in Bathinda area, which used to be their Jathere but now it has been transformed into a Gurudwara.

Also yo our pinds are not that far, my pind is nearby Nurpur Bedi, and my relatives villages stretch from Nurpur to Nawan shehr. Oh also we don't believe in Ramgarhia gurudwara stuff, my parents are not even aware of such thing.

Ghar da guru is also known as Jadi guru or Kul da guru.

prashantvaidwan
12-08-2018, 05:13 AM
Lt general ds Hooda, in news today, a Haryanvi Jatt..27567.. any comment on his phenotype...?

Rahuls77
12-08-2018, 05:24 AM
27568
Looks like the Pakistani actor Nayyar Ejaz, who played the role of an Indian Army officer in the Pakistani series called laag. Except that the general's nose is more prominent and Ejaz's tone a little darker.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-08-2018, 05:56 AM
27568
Looks like the Pakistani actor Nayyar Ejaz, who played the role of an Indian Army officer in the Pakistani series called laag. Except that the general's nose is more prominent and Ejaz's tone a little darker.

Is nayyar his last name? Because Nayyar is a Khatri surname.

Rahuls77
12-08-2018, 06:14 AM
Is nayyar his last name? Because Nayyar is a Khatri surname.

Its an Arabic name. The feminine is Nayyara, an example would be Nayyara Noor.

laltota
12-08-2018, 10:51 AM
Is nayyar his last name? Because Nayyar is a Khatri surname.

I assume Khatri last name Nayar or Nayyar is just coincidentally spelt same as the Arabic first name Nayyar but the two names are not connected.


I found this https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Nayar_(Khatri).html

Nayyar is a surname from the region of Punjab. The people who bear the name are Khatris belonging to the Sareen sub-group. The surname Nayyar drives basic origin from Kunjah in Gujrat District of Western Punjab (Now Pakistan) abutting to River Chenab area. A large number of Nayyars come from the Jalandhar District (a large number of them still live in Nurmahal in a region named Nijjaran Mohalla, and Ludhiana and Dasuya ( Distt Hoshiarpur)of Eastern Punjab. " The "JATHERE" of Nayyar's is situated at cheema road, Noormahal also known as sati Mata Mandir. Nayyars can also be Kshatriyas. Late Captain Anuj Nayar fought for India and is a war hero who will always be remembered.

Village historians say that Nayyars were originally Nijjars and Khatri Nijjar's changed their name to "Nayyar" under the suggestion of the British to distinguish themselves from Jatt Nijjars.

Nayyars have been, throughout history regarded as the upper caste and descendants of the Punjabi higher class businessmen, spiritual leaders and royalty . Majority of Nayyars today, are modern day descendants of royal or ruling families across Punjab . Their contributions towards the social, economical and cultural causes in Punjab, earned the caste laurels throughout the state .


Don't know why they have "Jathere" situated in Noormahal if origin is claimed to be in Gujrat Dist, W Punjab? Maybe because they cannot now have Jathere in Gujrat Dist?

Ref to Jatt Nijjars - not sure if this is made up or real? Might be true, but could also be a conjured up story to give an explanation for the name.

"Majority of Nayyars today, are modern day descendants of royal or ruling families across Punjab . " - no doubt. LOL.

Censored
12-08-2018, 11:20 PM
For the members on here with more exotic/unique ethnoreligious backgrounds, do you find it easier to oversimplify things so that people can understand? I find that I often struggle explaining the various aspects of my identity to people and prefer either to not mention it at all when interacting with people or just not delve into it much to prevent confusion. For some reason, a lot of grown adults have a hard time understanding how I can be Indian but also American simultaneously, or how I can be from a Muslim background as well(and especially explaining how I have nothing to do with Pakistan). I can't imagine what it'd be like to be Nepali or Bangladeshi since many people don't even know these countries exist. Do you often just tell people you're something else?

Since so much of the discussion in this thread is about culture and identity, I thought this may be the right place to post this. Mods can delete or move it if they think it is inappropriate.

Kulin
12-08-2018, 11:23 PM
For the members on here with more exotic/unique ethnoreligious backgrounds, do you find it easier to oversimplify things so that people can understand? I find that I often struggle explaining the various aspects of my identity to people and prefer either to not mention it at all when interacting with people or just not delve into it much to prevent confusion. For some reason, a lot of grown adults have a hard time understanding how I can be Indian but also American simultaneously, or how I can be from a Muslim background as well(and especially explaining how I have nothing to do with Pakistan). I can't imagine what it'd be like to be Nepali or Bengali since many people don't even know these countries exist. Do you often just tell people you're something else?

Since so much of the discussion in this thread is about culture and identity, I thought this may be the right place to post this. Mods can delete or move it if they think it is inappropriate.

Most people in Toronto know what Bengali is lol, Bangladesh itself has population of 160 million. White people and brown people both guess me as Indian/Pakistani of course, but when I say I'm Bengali, they understand. Indians/Pakistanis just ask if I like fish. Older white people talk about Tagore and younger ones my age probably couldn't give careless about my ethnic background though.

Censored
12-08-2018, 11:30 PM
Most people in Toronto know what Bengali is lol, Bangladesh itself has population of 160 million. White people and brown people both guess me as Indian/Pakistani of course, but when I say I'm Bengali, they understand. Indians/Pakistanis just ask if I like fish. Older white people talk about Tagore and younger ones my age probably couldn't give careless about my ethnic background though.

Ah ok. I guess this is more for those of us living in the States or places with low SA population. I should try telling people I'm Nepali or Bangladeshi just to see how they'd react, maybe then I'd know what it feels like lol.

Mandoos
12-09-2018, 12:03 AM
As a youth it was often weird trying to explain how I was born "culturally" Christian and not a convert, how my last name is not western but rather "religious" or "biblical", that even people interested in anthropology have found it unusual or amusing.

Many Indians don't realize being religious, no matter which you belong to, itself is a very "Indian" practice. Non-malayali Hindus who don't know much about Nasranis will associate you with some kind of cultural self-hate or western identification, when being Nasrani itself is as much an antiquated cultural identity in Kerala as vedic Hinduism was. Both religions entered the region around the same time.

oh, and a less annoying consequence is that I struggle to get bacon on my sandwiches in the US. People at least understand Indian american muslims exist lol.

Kart
12-09-2018, 02:56 AM
As a youth it was often weird trying to explain how I was born "culturally" Christian and not a convert, how my last name is not western but rather "religious" or "biblical", that even people interested in anthropology have found it unusual or amusing.

Many Indians don't realize being religious, no matter which you belong to, itself is a very "Indian" practice. Non-malayali Hindus who don't know much about Nasranis will associate you with some kind of cultural self-hate or western identification, when being Nasrani itself is as much an antiquated cultural identity in Kerala as vedic Hinduism was. Both religions entered the region around the same time.

oh, and a less annoying consequence is that I struggle to get bacon on my sandwiches in the US. People at least understand Indian american muslims exist lol.

lol the struggle. Some people gasp when I eat a cheeseburger. Yes I was born to Hindu parents but we eat beef in Kerala lol I still don't eat beef when I'm around my Punjabi Hindu coworker though lol. She's a nice lady, but she doesn't like my non-Hindu ways :D

Kart
12-09-2018, 02:57 AM
Duplicate post

Censored
12-09-2018, 05:20 AM
lol the struggle. Some people gasp when I eat a cheeseburger. Yes I was born to Hindu parents but we eat beef in Kerala lol I still don't eat beef when I'm around my Punjabi Hindu coworker though lol. She's a nice lady, but she doesn't like my non-Hindu ways :D

How common is it for western born Hindus to not eat meat?

26284729292
12-09-2018, 05:21 AM
How common is it for western born Hindus to not eat meat?

Iíve only seen it in Jatts and Brahmins personally, though you can lump some Gujaratis in there as well.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-09-2018, 05:49 AM
lol the struggle. Some people gasp when I eat a cheeseburger. Yes I was born to Hindu parents but we eat beef in Kerala lol I still don't eat beef when I'm around my Punjabi Hindu coworker though lol. She's a nice lady, but she doesn't like my non-Hindu ways :D

They're missing the heavenly taste of medium rare steak.

I've always lived in cities in Canada where I stick out or brown people can be counted on fingers. You get looks here and there, and some racist encounters but overall it's not big of a deal. People who are curious ask and I tell them that my background is Sikh. And in Canada majority people know. If they want specific I just say I'm from Punjab, from North India.

26284729292
12-09-2018, 05:50 AM
How common is it for western born Hindus to not eat meat?

Iíve only seen it in Jatts and Brahmins personally, though you can lump some Gujaratis in there as well.

Itís uncommon, unless thereís good reason.

Censored
12-09-2018, 05:55 AM
They're missing the heavenly taste of medium rare steak.

I've always lived in cities in Canada where I stick out or brown people can be counted on fingers. You get looks here and there, and some racist encounters but overall it's not big of a deal. People who are curious ask and I tell them that my background is Sikh. And in Canada majority people know. If they want specific I just say I'm from Punjab, from North India.

Have you ever been to America?

bmoney
12-09-2018, 06:15 AM
lol the struggle. Some people gasp when I eat a cheeseburger. Yes I was born to Hindu parents but we eat beef in Kerala lol I still don't eat beef when I'm around my Punjabi Hindu coworker though lol. She's a nice lady, but she doesn't like my non-Hindu ways :D

Hindus don’t eat beef in north Kerala, so I always get confused when North Indians suggest we do.

Poultry was eaten since my grandparents generation however, and so is seafood, so it’s hard to find vegetarians.

It must be the Christian influenced areas of Kerala. I noticed beef was openly served when I went to Kochi, but I wasn’t aware Hindus ate it

I’m 100% sure Kerala Brahmans don’t either.

Among South Indian ‘Hindus’ meat eating is a legacy of Dravidian culture/religion and generally more prevalent in avarna South Indians. The Thiyyas of Kerala drink/offer alcohol in their religious functions for example, so some beliefs are pretty far from Shankaracharyas form of second wave Hinduism.

I’ve noticed Sri Lankan Tamils over here in the West are much taller than what I’m used to seeing, and it’s possibly due to meat consumption

Personally I eat everything in the West though am not a huge fan of red meat

poi
12-09-2018, 06:40 AM
Hindus donít eat beef in north Kerala, so I always get confused when North Indians suggest we do.

Poultry was eaten since my grandparents generation however, and so is seafood, so itís hard to find vegetarians.

It must be the Christian influenced areas of Kerala. I noticed beef was openly served when I went to Kochi, but I wasnít aware Hindus ate it

Iím 100% sure Kerala Brahmans donít either.

Among South Indian ĎHindusí meat eating is a legacy of Dravidian culture/religion and generally more prevalent in avarna South Indians. The Thiyyas of Kerala drink/offer alcohol in their religious functions for example, so some beliefs are pretty far from Shankaracharyas form of second wave Hinduism.

Iíve noticed Sri Lankan Tamils over here in the West are much taller than what Iím used to seeing, and itís possibly due to meat consumption

Personally I eat everything in the West though am not a huge fan of red meat

I agree. If you define "Hindu" as Sankaracharya's cultural Hinduism with a major Vaishnav/Krishnite tilt, meat and alcohol are definitely frowned upon if not completely forbidden ... From South to North, same story.

The mountainous areas (I'm sure extending to Bengal) are HEAVY Kali/Durga/Shaivite influence, so my culture, although Brahmins who avoided alcohol, but we're into animal sacrifices(per religious reasons)... So, uncastrated mammals(basically young male goat) sacrificed using single strike method. When I was 10 or so, my family visited the old Gorkha Shah palace during Asthami and the palace(on top of the mountain) had river of blood flowing from the slaughter rooms. And each year, my family, like everybody else around us, ritually slaughtered young male goat for durga.

I was never into meat after that and still to this day, I don't crave (red) meat. I love shushi however.

Censored
12-09-2018, 06:59 AM
I agree. If you define "Hindu" as Sankaracharya's cultural Hinduism with a major Vaishnav/Krishnite tilt, meat and alcohol are definitely frowned upon if not completely forbidden ... From South to North, same story.

The mountainous areas (I'm sure extending to Bengal) are HEAVY Kali/Durga/Shaivite influence, so my culture, although Brahmins who avoided alcohol, but we're into animal sacrifices(per religious reasons)... So, uncastrated mammals(basically young male goat) sacrificed using single strike method. When I was 10 or so, my family visited the old Gorkha Shah palace during Asthami and the palace(on top of the mountain) had river of blood flowing from the slaughter rooms. And each year, my family, like everybody else around us, ritually slaughtered young male goat for durga.

I was never into meat after that and still to this day, I don't crave (red) meat. I love shushi however.

I eat only red meat. Fish can be good too but only if prepared very well. For some reason, I dislike the thought of eating chicken or any kind of bird for that matter. I will try to find lean fish or meat as I am on a diet right now and I lift weights so I need protein.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-09-2018, 07:13 AM
Have you ever been to America?

Nope, nor I want to.

bmoney
12-09-2018, 07:13 AM
Yeah Shankaracharya tried to bring back Vedic culture while also borrowing from Buddhist teachings, although the irony being that initially Indo-Aryans were probably voracious meat eaters as vegetarianism is not present in any other IE cultures

Among Brahmins I notice Bengali Brahmins allow for seafood in the diet which is unique among Brahmins

I guess geography always plays a part in culture

bmoney
12-09-2018, 07:16 AM
I eat only red meat. Fish can be good too but only if prepared very well. For some reason, I dislike the thought of eating chicken or any kind of bird for that matter. I will try to find lean fish or meat as I am on a diet right now and I lift weights so I need protein.

You want protein get on the daal bruh jks

Censored
12-09-2018, 07:20 AM
Yeah Shankaracharya tried to bring back Vedic culture while also borrowing from Buddhist teachings, although the irony being that initially Indo-Aryans were probably voracious meat eaters as vegetarianism is not present in any other IE cultures

Among Brahmins I notice Bengali Brahmins allow for seafood in the diet which is unique among Brahmins

I guess geography always plays a part in culture

Yeah this is one of the things that made it hard for me to associate steppe herders with playing a role in the creation of Hinduism.

Also I always thought the Bengali obsession with fish was a meme but now Im reading about their cuisine and apparently it's not, lol.

Mandoos
12-09-2018, 07:20 AM
Hindus don’t eat beef in north Kerala, so I always get confused when North Indians suggest we do.

Poultry was eaten since my grandparents generation however, and so is seafood, so it’s hard to find vegetarians.

It must be the Christian influenced areas of Kerala. I noticed beef was openly served when I went to Kochi, but I wasn’t aware Hindus ate it

I’m 100% sure Kerala Brahmans don’t either.

Among South Indian ‘Hindus’ meat eating is a legacy of Dravidian culture/religion and generally more prevalent in avarna South Indians. The Thiyyas of Kerala drink/offer alcohol in their religious functions for example, so some beliefs are pretty far from Shankaracharyas form of second wave Hinduism.

I’ve noticed Sri Lankan Tamils over here in the West are much taller than what I’m used to seeing, and it’s possibly due to meat consumption

Personally I eat everything in the West though am not a huge fan of red meat

There is a caste of meat/beef butcherers in TN, not sure what they were called.

bmoney
12-09-2018, 07:23 AM
There is a caste of meat/beef butcherers in TN, not sure what they were called.

Traditionally any caste in Hinduism that comes into contact with animal products such as leather or meat is considered without caste

thejkhan
12-09-2018, 07:25 AM
Traditionally any caste in Hinduism that comes into contact with animal products such as leather or meat is considered without caste

What about fish?