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26284729292
07-17-2018, 05:33 AM
Gujjars have high Iran N ancestry, Patels have high Iran N ancestry. That's why patels get high similarity with gujjars. It's the Iran N. I know you're doing good work but posting pictures for phenotype with nmonte runs is useless. One thing all users on anthrogenica understand is phenotype does not goes with genotype.

It makes me curious when we talk about looking like Pakistani or Indian. Based on PJL samples we know there are as AASI shifted individuals as Tamils in Pakistan, so it makes me curious what people mean when they say Pakistani looking.

Almost all Indian/Bengali users on this forum can easily pass in Pakistan, and Pakistani users in India. We're really dividing the subcontinent in meaningless categories, especially now we know in terms of genetics the big change occurs when you hit extreme borders of both countries.

I mainly get this from non south asian people who say people look "Indian" vs "Pakistani". I don't think they're aware of the diversity present in both countries.

Even in the states, people identify people as more "North Indian" or "South Indian" based purely on things like skin color, which is ignorant. There's a lot more to it than that, which people don't realize.

26284729292
07-17-2018, 05:35 AM
Lotta folks think I'm a goofy lookin Gujju Patel. I have high ASI, so look average Indian skin wise, but look phenotypically Pakistani features-wise.

Curious what exactly is "average Indian skin tone"?

Average based on what exactly? A picture of people in a city? Village? Bollwood Movie?

midichlorian
07-17-2018, 05:48 AM
Curious what exactly is "average Indian skin tone"?

Average based on what exactly? A picture of people in a city? Village? Bollwood Movie?

Lotta folks already know what I look like, but I mean in terms of the average in the cline. Not too light, not too dark. I'm beige. Smack dab in the middle.

24667

26284729292
07-17-2018, 06:22 AM
Beige is a lot lighter skinned than the average in India if we're looking at the general distribution of people by population, not skin color. Maybe on a color wheel of India, you're in the middle, but if we look at India's entire population (North, South, tribes, etc.) youre definitely quite light skinned.

Not trying to start anything that mods may/may not take offense too.

26284729292
07-17-2018, 06:23 AM
people go by frequency of occurence and associate a phenotype with a nationality , tbh despite of diversity i would say 70% of Pakistanis have similar look regardless of ethnicity.

Care to post a picture of this "look"?

redifflal
07-17-2018, 07:13 AM
Honestly a lot of us here are exaggerating or seeing things exotic/foreign when they're not there just for the sake of seeing something. I'll bring some dose of reality here. Let's call it the Taj Mahal Entry Fee Test, are you gonna be paying the Rs 10 that all SAARC nationalities pay or the Rs 150 that all non-South-Asians pay? Would the Bihari security guard challenge anyone of the Desis on here if we got the Rs 10 ticket to show passport? Trust me, I've visited India with non-Desi friends and gone to the ticket counter solo to buy 2 tickets, and have been embarrassed in public by security for trying to cheat the system and was told "you didn't get foreigner tickets for that person, you don't think we have eyes?" >:( Not even Sapporo would be challenged and he can pass anywhere outside of subcontinent from Iran to Morocco. The rare South Asian that I could see being challenged would be the Kashmiri Muslim dude Majid Khan below:

https://c.tribune.com.pk/2017/11/1559292-majidmainfinal-1510755513-864-640x480.jpg

I also think it is important when we bring in isolated pictures of individuals whether it is ourselves or others, to really know what we are supposed to be looking at. Best way to hash this out is to see pictures of said individual in relation to others. Let's see how Majid looks in relation to other Kashmiri Muslims:
https://staticx.kashmirobserver.in/assets/container/media/article-images/2017/46/football-majidsameer-yasir.jpg
http://d2r2ijn7njrktv.cloudfront.net/apnlive/uploads/2017/11/Majid.jpg
https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/rogywutxnz-1510768745.jpg
^^^ This pic above might as well be a Muslim village anywhere from east UP to Bangladesh with a white guy thrown in the middle lol. But that, my friends, is even as far northwest as Kashmir, the average complexion and features of the local population. And so yes, if Majid Khan were to go travel 100kms south to visit Agra, he would be challenged to provide documentation as the security would not believe he is Indian or South Asian and as a result he would fail my Taj Mahal Entry Fee Test. Below is another pic of the guy standing next to Indian soldiers, generally drawn from Kashmir itself and/or neighboring north/northwesterly states like Punjab/Himachal/Haryana/Rajasthan etc.
http://images.asianage.com/images/aa-Cover-spd7dvlhod1a6chmerjqs2u8s6-20171118070215.Medi.jpeg
This guy might legit have like Chechen ancestry or something. I have never met or seen online any pictures of Kashmiri Pandits that have phenotypes like this. Kashmiri Pandit crowds instead look like regular north Indian plains folks
http://s3.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Kashmiri-pndits.jpg
https://thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/kashmir_pandits_1941152g.jpg

redifflal
07-17-2018, 07:25 AM
Midi bro you wouldn't stand out among Gujjus. I just spent 2 weeks in Mumbai, first time visiting western India. You wouldn't stand out in that city at all. Besides Pakistan borders Gujarat, sure you'd have no issue "passing" in nearby Sindh and maybe Punjab and Rajasthan although I think I'd associate you from a first glance with Gujarat/Sindh.

passion
07-17-2018, 07:27 AM
Honestly a lot of us here are exaggerating or seeing things exotic/foreign when they're not there just for the sake of seeing something. I'll bring some dose of reality here. Let's call it the Taj Mahal Entry Fee Test, are you gonna be paying the Rs 10 that all SAARC nationalities pay or the Rs 150 that all non-South-Asians pay? Would the Bihari security guard challenge anyone of the Desis on here if we got the Rs 10 ticket to show passport? Trust me, I've visited India with non-Desi friends and gone to the ticket counter solo to buy 2 tickets, and have been embarrassed in public by security for trying to cheat the system and was told "you didn't get foreigner tickets for that person, you don't think we have eyes?" >:( Not even Sapporo would be challenged and he can pass anywhere outside of subcontinent from Iran to Morocco. The rare South Asian that I could see being challenged would be the Kashmiri Muslim dude Majid Khan below:

https://c.tribune.com.pk/2017/11/1559292-majidmainfinal-1510755513-864-640x480.jpg

I also think it is important when we bring in isolated pictures of individuals whether it is ourselves or others, to really know what we are supposed to be looking at. Best way to hash this out is to see pictures of said individual in relation to others. Let's see how Majid looks in relation to other Kashmiri Muslims:
https://staticx.kashmirobserver.in/assets/container/media/article-images/2017/46/football-majidsameer-yasir.jpg
http://d2r2ijn7njrktv.cloudfront.net/apnlive/uploads/2017/11/Majid.jpg
https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/rogywutxnz-1510768745.jpg
^^^ This pic above might as well be a Muslim village anywhere from east UP to Bangladesh with a white guy thrown in the middle lol. But that, my friends, is even as far northwest as Kashmir, the average complexion and features of the local population. And so yes, if Majid Khan were to go travel 100kms south to visit Agra, he would be challenged to provide documentation as the security would not believe he is Indian or South Asian and as a result he would fail my Taj Mahal Entry Fee Test. Below is another pic of the guy standing next to Indian soldiers, generally drawn from Kashmir itself and/or neighboring north/northwesterly states like Punjab/Himachal/Haryana/Rajasthan etc.
http://images.asianage.com/images/aa-Cover-spd7dvlhod1a6chmerjqs2u8s6-20171118070215.Medi.jpeg
This guy might legit have like Chechen ancestry or something. I have never met or seen online any pictures of Kashmiri Pandits that have phenotypes like this. Kashmiri Pandit crowds instead look like regular north Indian plains folks
http://s3.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Kashmiri-pndits.jpg
https://thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/kashmir_pandits_1941152g.jpg

some Kashmiri muslims have ancestry from Gilgit Baltistan.

passion
07-17-2018, 07:42 AM
Midi bro you wouldn't stand out among Gujjus. I just spent 2 weeks in Mumbai, first time visiting western India. You wouldn't stand out in that city at all. Besides Pakistan borders Gujarat, sure you'd have no issue "passing" in nearby Sindh and maybe Punjab and Rajasthan although I think I'd associate you from a first glance with Gujarat/Sindh.

most if not all South Asians can pass in East Pakistan individually but frequency of occurrence is another debate.

redifflal
07-17-2018, 07:53 AM
most if not all South Asians can pass in East Pakistan individually but frequency of occurrence is another debate.

I think it is pretty accurate to say there is a difference between the Indic Pakistanis and Iranic ones, or basically Punjabis+Sindhis in 1 side and Pashtuns+Balochis on the other. The Urdu speakers would fall in the Punjabi+Sindhi camp.

passion
07-17-2018, 08:02 AM
I think it is pretty accurate to say there is a difference between the Indic Pakistanis and Iranic ones, or basically Punjabis+Sindhis in 1 side and Pashtuns+Balochis on the other. The Urdu speakers would fall in the Punjabi+Sindhi camp.

yes there is a difference between average Indic and average iranic Pakistani , but Punjab region is very diverse I would say most non iranic/dardic south asians even many South Indians can pass there, but there are also very distinct Punjabi looks as well.videos from all over Pak Punjab


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq_0-nBfhDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGcU101VME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNtdXCUa_WI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLgLDOVJdQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOrbNcUUi4A

redifflal
07-17-2018, 08:09 AM
Also I think the overlap is only there between Sindhis and Gujaratis, and then with Punjabis on both sides. Rajasthanis can go either way but also would note much sparser populated compared to Punjab or Sindh or Gujarat. Most Indians wouldn't pass in Pakistan. Upper-caste Hindus from UP/Bihar kinda look like middle caste Punjabi Hindus, so only they would have some semblance with Pakistani Punjabis. Otherwise OBC from UP (Mulayam Singh Yadav) or SC from UP (Mayawati) only have their counterpart in Pakistan among the Urdu speakers. Upper caste from Deccan or Bengal look like middle caste of UP/Bihar, so we don't pass in Pak at all except maybe among the Urdu speakers.

passion
07-17-2018, 08:15 AM
Also I think the overlap is only there between Sindhis and Gujaratis, and then with Punjabis on both sides. Rajasthanis can go either way but also would note much sparser populated compared to Punjab or Sindh or Gujarat. Most Indians wouldn't pass in Pakistan. Upper-caste Hindus from UP/Bihar kinda look like middle caste Punjabi Hindus, so only they would have some semblance with Pakistani Punjabis. Otherwise OBC from UP (Mulayam Singh Yadav) or SC from UP (Mayawati) only have their counterpart in Pakistan among the Urdu speakers. Upper caste from Deccan or Bengal look like middle caste of UP/Bihar, so we don't pass in Pak at all except maybe among the Urdu speakers.

If we are talking about typical than you are right every ethnicity has typical core looks but Pakistan is very diverse and lots of South Asians can pass in Pak Punjab specially central Punjab just because they look south asian. And many urdu speakers are not that dark since many are from elite families of UP

redifflal
07-17-2018, 08:21 AM
yes there is a difference between average Indic and average iranic Pakistani , but Punjab region is very diverse I would say most non iranic/dardic south asians even many South Indians can pass there, but there are also very distinct Punjabi looks as well.videos from all over Pak Punjab


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq_0-nBfhDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGcU101VME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNtdXCUa_WI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLgLDOVJdQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOrbNcUUi4A

These are very long videos my man. But anyway phenotype isn't just facial features and complexion but other things too like natural body build type and height etc all of which are part of the total package when you see someone unknown in a subcontinent context and try to figure out what their background is. When you get inside the densely populated part of the subcontinent, it is a very gradual cline of different things like facial features, stockiness in a northwest to southeast axis, and height mainly in a west to east axis (south Indians and even Sri Lankans are taller than Bengalis). Complexion from what I have noted across the board is not correlated to region or caste but by class. Folks of SC background that are urban upper-middle class are same complexions as upper caste. Labor class people are invariably intermediate brown to very dark brown, rare to find fair complected male that drives a rickshaw or auto or tills the soil.

redifflal
07-17-2018, 08:51 AM
I am actually never able to bring myself on board with a lot of migrationist models of subcontinent population structure because of how the really dark brown complected people from Pak Punjab down southeast to Bangladesh and down south towards Sri Lanka in of themselves have a physical cline in heights and body types (heights decrease as you go southeast from Pak Punjab towards Bangladesh, stockiness gives way to lankiness as you go south from Pak Punjab towards Sri Lanka).

Example this guy below from Pakistan hockey team that's waving at the crowd. He might be very dark in Pakistan but he is a different stock that is unique to only Pak Punjab region. You will have people of that complexion in south and east India sure, but they do not have that build. Likewise there are people of much lighter complexions and sharper features in south and east India, but they too do not have that build and height.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/480/mcs/media/images/69892000/jpg/_69892711_pakistan_getty.jpg

This kind of a trend in the region-respective dark-complected labor-class primarily SC-derived populations of all these areas tells me that these phenotypes are just part of an OOA continuity because physical build on a cline is far more telling of genetic substructure than something as superficial as complexion which can change in 2-3 months depending on sunlight exposure. Essentially all the lighter skinned south Asians are depigmented versions of their local labor class, nothing migratory or invasive, definitely not from outside. Only way it can be chalked up to outside is something like Majid Khan, otherwise said hockey player's children that don't play hockey are going to be Midichlorian's complexion.
And if all this is just a continuous OOA stream across southern belt of Asia, then all talk of this distinction between East/South and West Eurasian is baloney when it comes to South Asian population structure, because these dark folks are what unites these two supposedly divided strands (it never divided in subcontinent).

There is too much focus in studies and discussions that tries to look at upper-castes as mixed progeny of some hyper-depigmented Eurasians with the dark complected folks, but truth is the upper castes are just partially depigmented branches of the dark labor class, maintaining their complexion mainly via lack of sun and partially through endogamy. Also we should note that upper-castes and elites are always far more mobile than the ones tied to the soil. This is why you have legit internal migrations that can explain why a Bengali Brahmin might not exactly look like simply a depigmented Bengali Namashudra, i.e. the Bengali Brahmin may have assimilated a Brahmin clan from Nepal or Karnataka or Punjab. This is why a Brahmin in south looks north-shifted, whereas a Brahmin in Punjab or Kashmir looks southeast-shifted. But for the most part, the regionally distinctive aspect should also be dominant as well. The way the models shifted from ASI to AASI should be an indicator, that as far as south Asia goes, there is no such thing as West/East divide. When more aDNA comes, it will break this AASI further but also recapture the Iran_N and ANE and Steppe even in different ways according to whether one is in Punjab or in Bengal or in Kerala.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-17-2018, 10:31 AM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.

tipirneni
07-17-2018, 11:42 AM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.

SOME Pjl samples look real Jatt like or Jatt mixed with Kshatriya.

"distance%=0.8978"
Punjabi_Lahore:S_Punjabi-4

Udegram_IA,58.2
Saidu_Sharif_IA_o,17.4
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,13
Scottish,7.4
Narva_Lithuania,1.4
Scotland_N,1.4
Yukagir_Tundra,0.8
Barikot_IA,0.4

compared to yours

[1] "distance%=0.8475"

Punjabi_Ramgarhia

Udegram_IA,48.2
Saidu_Sharif_IA_o,35.6
Nomad_IA,6.2
Jordanian,4.2
Nomad_Medieval,3.6
Scottish,2
Wusun,0.2

There is a wide range in PJL samples. You can just say SC only or Munda only.

passion
07-17-2018, 12:04 PM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.

first wait for random mass samples from other Indian cities than compare them to Lahore and you/sopporro and your family wouldnt be guess any thing else where large Pakistani Punjabi diaspora lives like in UK and Norway so i dont know what are you implying. What I find funny is that Indians always try to distance themselves from other Indians and talk about how diverse they are but when it comes to Pakistan country of 200 million is subset of some small time indian state.

Reza
07-17-2018, 12:13 PM
Can we keep an eye on the tone of this conversation please.

Specifically regarding generalisations and finger pointing.

It's a fair conversation to have, please do not derail with assumptions and personalisations.

Reza
07-17-2018, 12:33 PM
My issue with this conversation is that everyone is coming at it from their own personal experience (and dare I say agenda), and therefore arguing probably different points.

There is a difference between passing in a region versus being typical for that region. There is more diversity in some regions than other regions. There is the issue of self identification with certain ethnicities, whether they're recognised as native or not. There is a difference in the perspectives of outsiders from either side of the phenotype range. And perhaps more importantly, the lack of strict correlation between genotype vs phenotype on an individual level.

If you want to prove you look atypical for your region, or that your group are different to other groups in the region, or that we're all the same in the subcontinent... Its not going to be difficult to argue that case as some evidence to support your claims will be there.

Frankly, we don't have very good autosomal representation of most of the subcontinent's 1.5 billion people, there is probably a discordance / cherry picking of photos and personal experience to suit one's claim when we haven't sample the natural variation within a population, and frankly... We like to stereotype.

Tongue in cheek, but I propose everyone starts off with their one line agendas first.

Makes it easier to sift through the conversation and work out what you're trying to say.

Rant over.

bol_nat
07-17-2018, 01:23 PM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.

That's a lie repeated by Indians on these forums, not sure why you take afghan trolling literally. Check out Bhatinda samples, these will be similar to PJL ones in terms of diversity.

this is composition of punjab muslims castes. Though people who really standout in terms of looks tend to be chuhras/mussalis.

https://i.imgur.com/olwfz08.jpg

Check out videos posted by passion that's how punjab muslims look, obviously nothing out of ordinary in south asia but same is the case when one see Indian punjab videos.

midichlorian
07-17-2018, 01:25 PM
Midi bro you wouldn't stand out among Gujjus. I just spent 2 weeks in Mumbai, first time visiting western India. You wouldn't stand out in that city at all. Besides Pakistan borders Gujarat, sure you'd have no issue "passing" in nearby Sindh and maybe Punjab and Rajasthan although I think I'd associate you from a first glance with Gujarat/Sindh.

Among Gujjus, I know many people that look much more differently. I think among West Indians, I may even be easily classified as Gujju at first glance as well.

bmoney
07-17-2018, 01:39 PM
My issue with this conversation is that everyone is coming at it from their own personal experience (and dare I say agenda), and therefore arguing probably different points.

There is a difference between passing in a region versus being typical for that region. There is more diversity in some regions than other regions. There is the issue of self identification with certain ethnicities, whether they're recognised as native or not. There is a difference in the perspectives of outsiders from either side of the phenotype range. And perhaps more importantly, the lack of strict correlation between genotype vs phenotype on an individual level.

If you want to prove you look atypical for your region, or that your group are different to other groups in the region, or that we're all the same in the subcontinent... Its not going to be difficult to argue that case as some evidence to support your claims will be there.

Frankly, we don't have very good autosomal representation of most of the subcontinent's 1.5 billion people, there is probably a discordance / cherry picking of photos and personal experience to suit one's claim when we haven't sample the natural variation within a population, and frankly... We like to stereotype.

Tongue in cheek, but I propose everyone starts off with their one line agendas first.

Makes it easier to sift through the conversation and work out what you're trying to say.

Rant over.

My agenda:

-Genotype correlates with phenotype frequency at the group level and not at the individual level
-Most of us forum South Asians and those sampled, lets be real, are non-Tribals and not from SC/ST backgrounds. We are somewhat unrepresentative of the mean of our regions

To give an idea of the size of the unrepresented communities, heres something I found in wiki (India):


Caste Percentage of Poverty No. of People
FC 12.5% 49.1M
OBC 20.7% 108.5M
SC 29.4% 73.8M
ST 43.0% 46.4M

bol_nat
07-17-2018, 01:42 PM
https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/rogywutxnz-1510768745.jpg
^^^ This pic above might as well be a Muslim village anywhere from east UP to Bangladesh with a white guy thrown in the middle lol. But that, my friends, is even as far northwest as Kashmir, the average complexion and features of the local population. And so yes, if Majid Khan were to go travel 100kms south to visit Agra, he would be challenged _1941152g.jpg[/IMG]

If you asked me to guess location I would say hindko, AJK and Murree/Attock folk in extreme north west punjab because there tend to be overlap between them and Kashmiris. I would never guess UP or even generic punjabis in 1 place. Because half of them in that picture look like stereotypical kashmiris.

passion
07-17-2018, 01:45 PM
If you asked me to guess location I would say hindko, AJK and Murree/Attock folk in extreme north west punjab because there tend to be overlap between them and Kashmiris. I would never guess UP or even generic punjabis in 1 place. Because half of them in that picture look like stereotypical kashmiris.

i will also guess the pic from Abbotabad or Mansehra

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 02:09 PM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).
And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.

All these faces are normal in Punjab. All these pictures are from a restaurant in Multan. Now some I assume to be Jatt, Rajput, Pashtun, Syed, etc... However, I view all as local.


https://i.gyazo.com/f77055df79c56e802cb0d7ef34c59b5a.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/1d555a6997a6aa73fc4041ee6dce28e1.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/5d9cf9f9c9a5f7c5b2f29a9f939640b9.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/241ae802a7ca4bef9fc6649d6eb5f246.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/950cc8a04ddd8d2c935f10ef0fe813cc.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/3b5a4d878e2aeb2c49c1f2f128c618ec.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/55c96558b93e5c6211175db9992f15d3.jpg


No one would bat an eye to any of these faces in Punjab. Now based on my knowledge of faces in the region I have some assumptions on who is Jatt or Rajput or Gujjar or Baloch or Pashtun, etc... and I have a strong assumption about who in these pictures speaks Punjabi and who speaks Saraiki. Either way I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong, and I'm sure many people on this forum from India fit within the variation here. I think passion or bol_nat or kakiasumi would agree all these faces are fairly normal in Punjab. I would consider all to be "typical" -- even though they look different from each other and some look more Southern Punjabi than Northern, they are still all inconspicuous in a city of Punjab in Pakistan. A lot of the Punjab looks like the 3 guys in the 1st picture --- they are Chaudhary -- and they are one of the looks I would associate with a Jatt in Pakistan; this is probably where one of the stereotypes comes from. However, my main stereotype of a typical Jatt in southern Punjab is the group in the last picture. Also, the group of guys in the 3rd to last picture (5th) are Jatt in my opinion. 2nd picture is my stereotype of a Rajputs in Southern Punjab. 3rd picture is my stereotype of Gujjars in Southern Punjab, but I wouldn't surprised if they are Jatt. 3rd guy in 4th picture I'm pretty sure is Gujjar -- even though he looks very different, I would also assume the 1st guy is Gujjar. However, he and middle guy are hard to guess except that I assume both to be Multani city bois. I assume all people in that picture are Shi'a. Everyone in the 6th is my stereotype of Saraiki Pashtuns, maybe 1 or 2 are Rajput or mixed with.

midichlorian
07-17-2018, 02:12 PM
I have no agenda, was just answering one person's query which was "what is average Indian skin tone" and I think my usage of "average" was misguided. Then this fell into a whole phenotype discussion.

passion
07-17-2018, 02:15 PM
All these faces are normal in Punjab. All these pictures are from a restaurant in Multan. Now some I assume to be Jatt, Rajput, Pashtun, Syed, etc... However, all I view all as local.

[edited quote to not take up thread space]



thats what I have been saying , yes there are many people who look distinctively Punjabi(and they are bulk) but there is enough diversity that most South Asians can pass among them.

here are videos from central Bazaar in Multan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-AR29lct_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFalWrXIQSw

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 02:19 PM
I have no agenda, was just answering one person's query which was "what is average Indian skin tone" and I think my usage of "average" was misguided. Then this fell into a whole phenotype discussion.

Whoops, I thought we were in the thread that was made for that... just realized this is the GIH/PJL thread.

kakiasumi
07-17-2018, 03:02 PM
All these faces are normal in Punjab. All these pictures are from a restaurant in Multan. Now some I assume to be Jatt, Rajput, Pashtun, Syed, etc... However, all I view all as local.


No one would bat an eye to any of these faces in Punjab. Now based on my knowledge of faces in the region I have some assumptions on who is Jatt or Rajput or Gujjar or Baloch or Pashtun, etc... and I have a strong assumption about who in these pictures speaks Punjabi and who speaks Saraiki. Either way I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong, and I'm sure many people on this forum from India fit within the variation here. I think passion or bol_nat or kakiasumi would agree all these faces are fairly normal in Punjab. I would consider all to be "typical" -- even though they look different from each other and some look more Southern Punjabi than Northern, they are still all inconspicuous in a city of Punjab in Pakistan. A lot of the Punjab looks like the 3 guys in the 1st picture --- they are Chaudhary -- and they are one of the looks I would associate with a Jatt in Pakistan; this is probably where one of the stereotypes comes from. However, my main stereotype of a typical Jatt in southern Punjab is the group in the last picture. Also, the group of guys in the 3rd to last picture (5th) are Jatt in my opinion. 2nd picture is my stereotype of a Rajputs in Southern Punjab. 3rd picture is my stereotype of Gujjars in Southern Punjab, but I wouldn't surprised if they are Jatt. 3rd guy in 4th picture I'm pretty sure is Gujjar -- even though he looks very different, I would also assume the 1st guy is Gujjar. However, he and middle guy are hard to guess except that I assume both to be Multani city bois. I assume all people in that picture are Shi'a. Everyone in the 6th is my stereotype of Saraiki Pashtuns, maybe 1 or 2 are Rajput or mixed with.

I am not an expert on Punabi faces but I can differentiate between Punjabi and Pashtoon. In these pictures all look Punjabis except the 6th one who look Pashtoon.

redifflal
07-17-2018, 03:12 PM
If you asked me to guess location I would say hindko, AJK and Murree/Attock folk in extreme north west punjab because there tend to be overlap between them and Kashmiris. I would never guess UP or even generic punjabis in 1 place. Because half of them in that picture look like stereotypical kashmiris.

I feel like in the picture of Majid Khan with rest of his football team, the teammates are more of the generic Kashmiri Muslim look and I posted that picture to show how he stands out amongst fellow typical Kashmiri Muslims. The village pic and the football team pic crowds in of themselves do look different overall though and the villagers look more southerly or plains shifted compared to the football team. My idea of Kashmiri Muslims is the football team, the village pic is surprising to me. Of course not anywhere as surprising as Majid Khan though.

passion
07-17-2018, 03:23 PM
I feel like in the picture of Majid Khan with rest of his football team, the teammates are more of the generic Kashmiri Muslim look and I posted that picture to show how he stands out amongst fellow typical Kashmiri Muslims. The village pic and the football team pic crowds in of themselves do look different overall though and the villagers look more southerly or plains shifted compared to the football team. My idea of Kashmiri Muslims is the football team, the village pic is surprising to me. Of course not anywhere as surprising as Majid Khan though.

kashmiris from my experience look somewhere between mainstream Punjabis and Pashtuns. They are quite diverse bunch in themselves

video from indian Kashmir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LhBaFpASvk

redifflal
07-17-2018, 05:23 PM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.
Interesting that you said Slavs and not Chechens. Should I read you would in essence be alluding to an older shared ancestry versus a newer shared ancestry? I wouldn't be in disagreement there in that case. There is something very very "recent"ly non Indian about Majid Khan phenotype which makes him stand out from Kashmiri Muslim villagers, fellow Kashmiri Muslim urban youth and the generic northwestern Indian. It cannot be sourced to a Kalash or Chitrali population imho. I have yet to see such phenotype package in any non Muslim south Asian group. I also felt this way when I saw the ISIS inspired attackers of the Dhaka cafe couple years ago, the ring leader of that group in center of below pic has a phenotype you will rarely find in most Bengali Muslims but definitely never in Bengali Hindus even the most upper caste Brahmins with historically recorded migration from Uttar Pradesh.
http://s3.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/dhaka-isis-attackers.jpg
https://cdn.en.ntvbd.com/site/photo-1467802348
My agenda in posting these pictures of Muslims of respective south Asian ethnic groups carrying phenotype that is rarely present in rest of their coethnic Muslims and completely absent in the Hindus cannot be said to be a classical Hindutvadi agenda which seeks to negate the foreign attributes of the South Asian Muslim ethnogenesis. No this is my own idea which qualifies both the "we are all conquistadors" on one end and the "we are all the same" on the other. Truth lies in the spectrum in between, maybe 90% Hindutva and 10% we wuz Persians look at our light skins mashallah lol. Either way if folks think that such phenotypes exist in the respective non Muslim counterparts in those ethnicities and not in filmy circles but aam janta like how Majid Khan or Nibras Islam hail from, kindly prove me wrong.



Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker.
Nope. This is result of folks thinking garbage calculators like Harappa built on migrationist models are actually indicative of real ancestry. I mean look at how lazy and disingenuous is the way it is set up. There is a node called "South Indian" lol whereas everything else is broken down to Baloch, Armenian, Circassian, Tajik blah blah blah. I made the analogy of this in building models for Europeans as trying to use redifflal, redifflal grandfather and redifflal cousin as nodes and then saying aah some Germans scheduled castes have lot of overlap with Portuguese.

A Punjabi scheduled caste looks very very Punjabi and is the original Punjabi. Similarly a Bengali schedule caste is very very Bengali and is the original Bengali. It is the higher castes that are more mobile and will exhibit the phenotype diversity and have more chance of being pan south Asian looking ambiguous type. If we had real Indo centric approach at analyzing Indian subcontinent population history instead of Eurocentric one which continues to persist I don't know why, you will easily see this. One thing as bmoney has noted is that scheduled caste populations are unrepresented amongst us here, but I think your own background isn't considered high although not SC... I'm guessing OBC? I want you to visit Kolkata or Dhaka and see if you even note even one Bengali individual with your height/breadth/features combo amongst the Bengals of any caste. But according to these garbage models there will be Bengalis that supposedly overlap with you or you overlap with them. Why does it not show in phenotype then?

There was a Punjabi scheduled caste guy named Harjit Masih who came in media spotlight a few months ago.
https://images.indianexpress.com/2018/03/masih-759.jpg
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/24/19/4297179300000578-4725926-image-a-1_1500919532233.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/16/23/28C1B08100000578-3084641-image-a-49_1431813801363.jpg
Above pic to right of him the fair skinned guy is a Bhagwant Mann, a politician from AAP, guessing not a SC. Either way both the Punjabi SC and non SC are very Punjabi looking people. Masih does not look Bengali in the slightest and definitely not Bengali SC. If a Bengali has his sharp facial features, he is also likely to be a lot lighter complexion and will most likely be an upper caste Bengali with actual historically verifiable internal migration of some part of his ancestry from nw area to Bengal. On other hand the Punjabi non SC guy is just a depigmented version of the SC guy.
Among Punjabi Muslims, the ones still involved more with Sufi culture are likely to also be from Chamar or Bhangi caste backgrounds. Below are some Sufi Muslims from Haryana, all very dark skinned to the man, but they are of the original population of northwest India (and also NOT to be found in Bengal or Deccan).

https://youtu.be/9g-CvB9t6ns
Below are similar SC derived Sufi Punjabi Muslims affiliated with Baba Shah Jamal darbar in Lahore.

https://youtu.be/mnDTlXa8lNQ

In comparison look at the Bengali scheduled castes that supposedly Punjabi scheduled caste are supposed to overlap with, just watching first minute of video below is enough to get the point I'm making. Bengali SC and Punjabi SC have not shared ancestry maybe going back to advent of agriculture. The autosomal components in all these studies are just ridiculously dismissive and imposing a migrationist model, so of course one can fit anything into that...

https://youtu.be/yBvy-XdHP8I



Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.
Untrue on several accounts. First of all nw subcontinent has seen way more continuous waylaying and economic disruptions than the south or Bengal. Into the late medieval period when Mughal India had 25% of global gdp, Subah Bangla share alone in world was 12%, similar to California's share today. India being a more and more prosperous land the deeper you go into it has been the way it has been from forever, even Alexander knew this when he almost lost to a king of a city state in Punjab, what was lying ahead deeper in India. The kind of ravaging that Punjab underwent starting from Ghazni through Timur all the way to Abdali is not comparable seen in history of Bengal until the Brits and 1971.
There is more malnutrition in Bihar and Uttar Pradesh whereas Bangladesh has higher GDP per capita than Pakistan. Sri Lanka is like first world compared to rest of Indian subcontinent nations. No trash. No beggars. People drive in lanes. No over population. India's south is way more developed than northern half. Indian Punjab is more an exception than the rule, both comparing to UP to its east or Pak Punjab to its west or Kashmir to north. It is or was an island of prosperity via green revolution and pull up from bootstraps mentality of the partition refugees, but that ethic is gone now and there's Udta Punjab instead, economic outcome of that will soon start showing.
All of subcontinent is producing below height potential and if any disproportionate regional disparity exists, it would be that the BIMARU states of India (Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh) and Pakistan are more behind in height potential than say West Bengal or Bangladesh or northeast India or Deccan or Sri Lanka.
When I was talking of build I was not referring to mass but rather tropical adaptations and/or leanness. People pack muscle and fat differently genetically. Folks in northwest in general have a stockier natural base. Doesn't matter if the guy is a vegetarian or vegetarian community or non vegetarian or relatively higher protein consuming.



Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

Honestly bro this Pashtuns looking down on Indic Pakistanis is a coping mechanism on their part (the ones doing the looking down). I don't even know what you as an Indian Punjabi have to gain from getting into and winning a "we iz tall broad Caucasoid also" competition with Pashtuns. Like you said nobody in india thinks of you and Sapporo as anything other than Punjabi, why Pakistan or Pakistani-Afghanistani dynamics features so prominently in your thoughts is beyond me. My Punjabi wife's family is my closest interaction obviously and they are Khatris that lost a lot during partition including everything you see in the movies like women jumping into wells and men getting beheaded. They never bring up anything Pakistan related ever, like it isn't on their radar at all. It's not like they're anti Muslim though, they have Muslim family friends in Delhi or Jammu etc, they just don't have anything Pak related in their minds. Maybe it's a partition-affected vs non affected issue amongst Punjabis. I guess I'm the Bengali version of you, because my family wasn't affected by partition as we are native to what became West Bengal anyway. So compared to a "Bangaal" or a person who migrated from East Pakistan/Bangladesh to West Bengal, I am much more comfortable with delving into Bangladeshi specific culture and people etc.

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 05:36 PM
All inevitable discussion of visage has been relegated to confinement in this thread.
I'm pretty sure at some point Reza or I will find it necessary to delete this thread. So walk fine lines with extreme caution.

Reza
07-17-2018, 05:44 PM
Aha I also didn't pick up that this was the wrong thread. Thanks for moving.

On a side note, I would probably use the word chehra in Bangla to refer to visage/appearance. Mukh, in my usage, is a more literal reference to the face.

But back on topic..

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 05:47 PM
Aha I also didn't pick up that this was the wrong thread. Thanks for moving.

On a side note, I would probably use the word chehra in Bangla to refer to visage/appearance. Mukh, in my usage, is a more literal reference to the face.

But back on topic..

I was about to ask you or redifflal, but I was like Google Translate should do just fine. I'll change it... if I Google Translate gives me chehra. BRB!

redifflal
07-17-2018, 05:48 PM
Bahaha awesome thread title.

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 05:49 PM
Is this correct? চেহারা ?

Reza
07-17-2018, 05:58 PM
Yeah I guess the formal spelling is চেহারা though I would have pronounced it চেহেরা.

In sylheti we end up pronouncing it che(h)ra or sometimes even sera.

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 05:58 PM
OK have fun guys, I got to go pretend I have other important things to do.
Behave or Reza will ban the ish out of you.

redifflal
07-17-2018, 05:58 PM
On a sidenote, a thread title with multiple Indian subcontinent languages' scripts is a win at the end of the day for us Indocentrics regardless of content consisting having to ward off the prevalent Eurocentricism latent in the field (which can be beat by ever evolving science of the field) but more importantly having to fight off any and all displays of inferiority complexes by south Asians themselves regarding our features and any kind of "yearning" for something defeatist at expense of your fellow Desi.

This thread title is an independent reconstruction of the same great federalism and diversity at work in the Indian rupee with its shout out to all the major Indian languages
http://images.myshared.ru/20/1242388/slide_10.jpg

I will say cheers to that

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 06:02 PM
Yeah I guess the formal spelling is চেহারা though I would have pronounced it চেহেরা.

In sylheti we end up pronouncing it che(h)ra or sometimes even sera.

Caucus with the Bangla of AG on this matter, reach a consensus, and move the referendum to the floor. I will amend as necessary.
Yes, I'm watching too much C-SPAN. Yes, I also realize you are in the UK and all this was gibberish.

redifflal
07-17-2018, 06:14 PM
Caucus with the Bangla of AG on this matter, reach a consensus, and move the referendum to the floor. I will amend as necessary.
Yes, I'm watching too much C-SPAN. Yes, I also realize you are in the UK and all this was gibberish.

চেহারা is fine unless our Sylheti brethren wish for representation of Sylheti, in which case in spirit of the same respect of the hollistic diversity you will need to append with চেহেরা as well :P Matter of fact it might actually be the latter in Assamese language anyway, jortita would know better as Sylheti is the continuum from Bangla proper to Assamese proper.

What is the difference between third and last ones? They both are Devanagiri script for same chehra word. Hindi Nepali Marathi and Sanskrit all use that script with minor differences if any.

khanabadoshi
07-17-2018, 06:19 PM
One was Punjabi and other was Hindi. I got confused myself, thought I posted Hindi twice. There is a slight difference on the top line thing, but it might be cut off because of character limit and they are the same? Maybe they are both the same. If they are I can remove one and add another language.

EDIT: I think I made a mistake... now this word is coming for "face" in Punjabi ਚਿਹਰਾ? I thought Bhoota was face in Punjabi? MDL or Sapporo will correct it.

Punjabi (this was wrong): चेहरा it's ਚਿਹਰਾ
Hindi: चेहरा

Amended Title (had to get rid of spaces to make it fit) চেহারাمنهنचेहराముఖంمخமுகம்چہرہਚਿਹਰਾ

Censored
07-17-2018, 08:57 PM
Honestly a lot of us here are exaggerating or seeing things exotic/foreign when they're not there just for the sake of seeing something. I'll bring some dose of reality here. Let's call it the Taj Mahal Entry Fee Test, are you gonna be paying the Rs 10 that all SAARC nationalities pay or the Rs 150 that all non-South-Asians pay? Would the Bihari security guard challenge anyone of the Desis on here if we got the Rs 10 ticket to show passport? Trust me, I've visited India with non-Desi friends and gone to the ticket counter solo to buy 2 tickets, and have been embarrassed in public by security for trying to cheat the system and was told "you didn't get foreigner tickets for that person, you don't think we have eyes?" >:( Not even Sapporo would be challenged and he can pass anywhere outside of subcontinent from Iran to Morocco. The rare South Asian that I could see being challenged would be the Kashmiri Muslim dude Majid Khan below:

https://c.tribune.com.pk/2017/11/1559292-majidmainfinal-1510755513-864-640x480.jpg

I also think it is important when we bring in isolated pictures of individuals whether it is ourselves or others, to really know what we are supposed to be looking at. Best way to hash this out is to see pictures of said individual in relation to others. Let's see how Majid looks in relation to other Kashmiri Muslims:
https://staticx.kashmirobserver.in/assets/container/media/article-images/2017/46/football-majidsameer-yasir.jpg
http://d2r2ijn7njrktv.cloudfront.net/apnlive/uploads/2017/11/Majid.jpg
https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/rogywutxnz-1510768745.jpg
^^^ This pic above might as well be a Muslim village anywhere from east UP to Bangladesh with a white guy thrown in the middle lol. But that, my friends, is even as far northwest as Kashmir, the average complexion and features of the local population. And so yes, if Majid Khan were to go travel 100kms south to visit Agra, he would be challenged to provide documentation as the security would not believe he is Indian or South Asian and as a result he would fail my Taj Mahal Entry Fee Test. Below is another pic of the guy standing next to Indian soldiers, generally drawn from Kashmir itself and/or neighboring north/northwesterly states like Punjab/Himachal/Haryana/Rajasthan etc.
http://images.asianage.com/images/aa-Cover-spd7dvlhod1a6chmerjqs2u8s6-20171118070215.Medi.jpeg
This guy might legit have like Chechen ancestry or something. I have never met or seen online any pictures of Kashmiri Pandits that have phenotypes like this. Kashmiri Pandit crowds instead look like regular north Indian plains folks
http://s3.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Kashmiri-pndits.jpg
https://thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/kashmir_pandits_1941152g.jpg

That does not look like a typical white guy. He looks like one of the lighter Syrians/Lebanese/Palestinians or perhaps a Chechen.

Anyway, this is really complicated. For each ethnic/nationality group there is a "distinct" face which means that to a person familiar with that group, they probably wouldn't pass for any other ethnicity or nationality. I commonly see Pakistani girls who I would never in a million years assume to be anything but Pakistani(I do think there is a certain look, for the record). That being said, there is a lot of overlap which can, in some cases, throw off even the most race/phenotype conscious people. And here's what you have to realize-just because we on here as south Asians or people well versed in different phenotypes can easily tell who is what does not mean the average person can.

Take any person from that cricket team or even some guy from the restaurant photos and put them in Baghdad or Cairo. I guarantee nobody would ever suspect them to not be a local until they open their mouth. But that doesn't mean that NW South Asians look the same as Arabs. Fact is that the average person is just not that perceptive of this stuff.

To keep it simple, go by the rule of that if most other South Asians you meet can tell you are South Asian, then you look South Asian.

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 12:04 AM
first wait for random mass samples from other Indian cities than compare them to Lahore and you/sopporro and your family wouldnt be guess any thing else where large Pakistani Punjabi diaspora lives like in UK and Norway so i dont know what are you implying. What I find funny is that Indians always try to distance themselves from other Indians and talk about how diverse they are but when it comes to Pakistan country of 200 million is subset of some small time indian state.

He's implying that certain Muslim communities such as Afghans have a very biased view of what Pakistani Punjabs look like. They seem to think many or even most resemble scheduled castes and scheduled tribes of Punjab of which some have munda or austroasiatic like features not commonly associated with the average biradari Punjabi. In fact, my sister met two Afghans at a party (with mostly Punjabis) before who mistook her for Afghan. However, it's not restricted to Afghans either. Iranian and Syrian men have refused to believe my mother or sister were Indian or even Punjabi before. If you don't fit the preconceived looks people have of your community, people have a hard time believing you're from said community.

Also, Pakistani Punjab has a lot more diversity in terms of biradaris while Indian Punjabis are dominated by Jatt Sikhs with the rest being made up of Khatris, Tarkhans, Gujjars, Rajputs, Saini, Kamboj, Brahmins, etc. I can't say for sure but I also believe Pakistani Punjab may have a slightly higher proportion of scheduled caste/scheduled tribe populations such as chura, chamar and Mazhabi types. I can say for certain that Indian Punjab has at least around 30%. Anyways, biradari types also have their own diversity in phenotypes but my best guess is that a lot of their associations of phenotype comes from these SC/ST groups. Anyone who doesn't fit the "expected look" is considered an outlier or just outright ignored.

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 12:27 AM
Nope. This is result of folks thinking garbage calculators like Harappa built on migrationist models are actually indicative of real ancestry. I mean look at how lazy and disingenuous is the way it is set up. There is a node called "South Indian" lol whereas everything else is broken down to Baloch, Armenian, Circassian, Tajik blah blah blah. I made the analogy of this in building models for Europeans as trying to use redifflal, redifflal grandfather and redifflal cousin as nodes and then saying aah some Germans scheduled castes have lot of overlap with Portuguese.

So all GEDMatch calculators and modern genetic admixture analysis such as nMonte are wrong? The ancient DNA samples from SWAT all also fall into this migrations model by coincidence? It doesn't matter whether you use modern populations or ancient DNA samples, the data shows the same thing. PJL populations span a cline where some cluster toward Scheduled castes of Bangladesh or mid-castes of South India and other "biradari" types toward the Pashtun/Kalash. Then, there are some groups, which are somewhere in the middle.

I get you're anti-AMT man but dismissing this stuff as migration model biased "western agenda" driven genetics is pretty short-sighted.



A Punjabi scheduled caste looks very very Punjabi and is the original Punjabi. Similarly a Bengali schedule caste is very very Bengali and is the original Bengali. It is the higher castes that are more mobile and will exhibit the phenotype diversity and have more chance of being pan south Asian looking ambiguous type.
Perhaps they are the "original" Punjabi but many of them certainly don't look at all look what people commonly associate as "Punjabi" looking. The people below are dalits of Punjab. Even the darkest people in my family don't really resemble them. It's usually the Chamars of Punjab who span the looks from biradari types to dalits.

https://thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/dalits-punjab_hina.png

https://punjabupdate.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2018-04-02-PHOTO-00000385-500x375.jpg

Here are some Punjabi Chamars. I definitely see a few who have a look I associate with Punjab.

https://drambedkarbooks.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/punjab_chamar_20110711.jpg

Oh, by the way, I've seen the admixture results of a Punjabi Chamar. They are definitely the group who would span the cline from biradari types clustering toward Pashtuns/Kalash to some of the SC/ST clustering toward mid-castes in South India or even SC of Bangladesh. Anyways, I guess my point is that the reason dalits of Punjab look different on average than a Punjabi Khatri, Arain or Jatt Sikh is because they are significantly different in terms of autosomal ancestry. It really is that simple. It's not because of sun exposure or lack of it for the most part. That affects skintone but not anywhere as much as autosomal ancestry.

Zuran
07-18-2018, 01:01 AM
24698
This is my father. Who's paternal side is from the the Sialkot area, and whose maternal side, I'm fairly certain were also Jatts. I'd say he represents what most Biradaris look like. (Of course there are exceptions, but I'd say 60% resemble this)

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 01:26 AM
Wait my post is taken way out of context here. First of all, no one is denying the Punjabi identity of PJLs who cluster with Tamils or Bengali SCs. They are as Punjabis are me or sapporo or bolnat or Zuran. Secondly sapporo did posted pics before I could post, to show the munda influenced Punjabis. Nowhere I denied they are not found in Indian Punjab, so I dont get why some users are getting aggressive. Of Course I know better how punjabis look like than a bengali or a sindhi. I am one, lived in Punjab for 22 years and interact with Pakistani punjabis on regular bases in GTA Canada from past 4 years.

I talk about stereotypes about us from personal inlife experience, not just based on some trolls comments in pashtun forums. I have been told straight on face by my afghan boss, his afghan friend, Pashtuns from peshawar who make majority of taxi drivers in my area and 2 karachhite muhajjir aunties from my previous workplace that I dont look punjabi because they are usually very dark. Which is complete nonsense because we have all colours, but they only associated a certain stereotype with us. Heck when I told them about my grandfather moving from Chaman, they actually thought I had legit non punjabi mix being the reason I dont look punjabi to them. I know what I look like, have no interest in looking non punjabi, and it is a known fact I am a Punjabi nationalist on a lot of anthro forums.

Thanks sapporo for touching the genetics part, @Redifflal, Yes I come under OBC, which also includes non punjabi Jatts, all gujjars, Sainis, Kambojs. It is a newly made term for vote bank. I aint high caste, true, but I dont even come closer to scoring like any bengali like you claimed. For the matter, on multiple PCA plots posted by POI, Khana, I either cluster with Punjabi/Kashmiri brahmins, or a bit south of Kohistanis/Punjabi gujjars depending on what kind of program is used. And yet I dont look like them, also keep in mind those exotic looking kashmiris are Kohistanis.

I hate posting pics of my family to prove anything, comes of as wannabeness, but its hilarious the users who classified them passing in West of Pakistan to Iran to Chitral to Kashmir, are claiming they dont fit outside of Punjab. Here enjoy the diversity of "Whole Punjab", first pic is of my first cousin, no chechan mix in him btw, with his coworkers who are Dalit Punjabis:

24700

Here is his standalone pic, looks exotic for your stereotype punjabi:

24701

Here is my dad's cousin, people lost mind on scape saying he does not resemble any Indian and can pass in Iran/afghanistan

24702 24703

Here are couple of my other first cousins:

24704

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 01:29 AM
thats what I have been saying , yes there are many people who look distinctively Punjabi(and they are bulk) but there is enough diversity that most South Asians can pass among them.

here are videos from central Bazaar in Multan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-AR29lct_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFalWrXIQSw

In election videos one can see north to south cline in terms of phenotype, this is irrespective of baradaris. Because northen rajputs don't quite look like southern rajputs. This is irrespective of the harappa calculator results because we know at this point its not as straight forward.

Another reason is chuhra/mussali like population was much less as one moves towards potohar, they were concentrated in irrigated lands and cities. So one will see less of them in certain regions.

btw here is Indian punjab election videos


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqnREnhL7rY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtF-eHidgw

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 01:30 AM
Here's more:

24705 24706 24707

My uncle who was placed in Balochistan:

24708

Don't get me wrong, this pictures are just to show the diversity and break the stereotype people have about punjab, the variation we have. Before someone jumps in and start calling wannabeness.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 01:33 AM
One was Punjabi and other was Hindi. I got confused myself, thought I posted Hindi twice. There is a slight difference on the top line thing, but it might be cut off because of character limit and they are the same? Maybe they are both the same. If they are I can remove one and add another language.

EDIT: I think I made a mistake... now this word is coming for "face" in Punjabi ਚਿਹਰਾ? I thought Bhoota was face in Punjabi? MDL or Sapporo will correct it.

Punjabi (this was wrong): चेहरा it's ਚਿਹਰਾ
Hindi: चेहरा

Amended Title (had to get rid of spaces to make it fit) চেহারাمنهنचेहराముఖంمخமுகம்چہرہਚਿਹਰਾ



The punjabi one translates to Chihra. So you got it right lol.

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 01:39 AM
This is my father. Who's paternal side is from the the Sialkot area, and whose maternal side, I'm fairly certain were also Jatts. I'd say he represents what most Biradaris look like. (Of course there are exceptions, but I'd say 60% resemble this)

My father, found this old photo. We also claim to be jatts in pind of Kharian tehsil.

deleted

redifflal
07-18-2018, 01:52 AM
So all GEDMatch calculators and modern genetic admixture analysis such as nMonte are wrong? The ancient DNA samples from SWAT all also fall into this migrations model by coincidence? It doesn't matter whether you use modern populations or ancient DNA samples, the data shows the same thing. PJL populations span a cline where some cluster toward Scheduled castes of Bangladesh or mid-castes of South India and other "biradari" types toward the Pashtun/Kalash. Then, there are some groups, which are somewhere in the middle.


The models and the science is not "wrong", but they are also not relevant yet to South Asians. When your calculator's nodes are built around a "South Indian" which then graduates to a ghost-Ancestral-South Indian...which subsequently graduates to a ghost-Ancient-Ancestral-South-Indian, you have to question what is the use of this construct? If a calculator for say modern or ancient Eurasians was built on African components, say your nodes are Yoruba, Somali and Bushmen, your percentages will still add up to 100, but how relevant is that to draw conclusions? This is the issue with the models for Indian subcontinent. A Punjabi Chamar and a Bangladeshi Namashudra have NOT shared ancestry going over 10,000 years maybe more but your calculator will not pick that up because that entire aspect is getting clubbed under some type of "South Indian"...and then you are running off with that saying that Punjabi Chamars overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras according to calculator.
This is comical man. Not a single one of the Punjabi Scheduled Castes folks you posted or I posted have any chance of passing in rural Bengal or Bihar for that matter. You guys are so in your heads proving "we can be white too" with your contests versus some racist Pashtuns, you are so concerned about showing how you and Punjabi Scheduled Castes are different. Yeah, they are different from you. WITHIN PUNJAB!! Your Punjabi Chamar does not matter how Australoid featured his face is or jet black his complexion is, he is guaranteed to be on average sharper featured and taller and stockier build than the same caste counterparts deeper inside the subcontinent. What is so hard to understand about this? If according to these GIGO calculators these Punjabi Chamars apparently overlapped with Bengali Shudras, then why the cline in physical size and feature sharpness? Oh, they derive from slightly higher Caucasoid components in Punjab than in Bengalis? What a diversion/obfuscation lol. Then why isn't the same higher Caucasoid elements in an upper caste Bengali or other Purbiya (UP/Bihar) not responsible for the same look as a Punjabi Chamar? Instead a Bengali upper-caste looks only like a depigmented version of a Bengali SC, barring some Bengali Brahmins who have historical migration from UP. Either way no Bengali Brahmin ever looks like any kind of Punjabi. There is a fundamental element of real Punjabi genes missing, latter being ubiquitous in all Punjabis of all castes.

These calculators as far as having relevance are only within a region. So if real relevant model nodes for South Asians become available (like Kashmir Hunter Gatherers, Punjab Hunter Gatherers, Gangetic Hunter Gatherers, Gujarat Hunter Gatherers, Karnataka Hunter Gatherers etc), you will have different set of numbers but Punjabi Chamar and Punjabi Biradari will show their real differences, but also and more importantly, the overlap of Punjabi Chamar and Bengali Shudra will go down to 0. There will instead remain overlap between Punjabi Brahmin with Bengali Brahmin and matter of fact, a Punjabi Brahmin will have more real genetic overlap with lower caste populations southeast of Punjab by way of the upper caste populations southeast of Punjab. Hence my point that the upper-castes are more related to each other in reality than the lower castes who are very very native and unique to their regions.



I get you're anti-AMT man but dismissing this stuff as migration model biased "western agenda" driven genetics is pretty short-sighted.


Actually I am more interested in deconstructing the relevance of Iran_N first to Indian subcontinent population structure and history than AMT. But Iran_N is defined from aDNA from Zagros from 7000BC, there is nothing down the pipeline for replacing this. Because Iran_N is basis for ASI and AASI, the models are throwing out garbage like "overlap" of distant populations like Punjabi Chamars and Bangladeshi Namashudras. I also am not sure what point you are making with the Swat valley samples. What exactly did they prove? No substantial Steppe impact when it is supposed to happen but happening gradually into heyday of classical post-Vedantic era. Also all talk of uniparental y-haps supposedly so putative that they changed the composition of Indian subcontinent is barely there now, so now let's talk up how uniparentals aren't really indicative anyway. Don't tell me which Swat sample is x% AASI and x% Steppe and x%-Indus-Periphery, because AASI is still from the !Iran_N, so a dubious category that again, gives you garbage like Punjabi Chamars supposedly having overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras.



Perhaps they are the "original" Punjabi but many of them certainly don't look at all look what people commonly associate as "Punjabi" looking. The people below are dalits of Punjab. Even the darkest people in my family don't really resemble them. It's usually the Chamars of Punjab who span the looks from biradari types to dalits.

https://thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/dalits-punjab_hina.png

https://punjabupdate.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2018-04-02-PHOTO-00000385-500x375.jpg

Here are some Punjabi Chamars. I definitely see a few who have a look I associate with Punjab.

https://drambedkarbooks.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/punjab_chamar_20110711.jpg

Oh, by the way, I've seen the admixture results of a Punjabi Chamar. They are definitely the group who would span the cline from biradari types clustering toward Pashtuns/Kalash to some of the SC/ST clustering toward mid-castes in South India or even SC of Bangladesh. Anyways, I guess my point is that the reason dalits of Punjab look different on average than a Punjabi Khatri, Arain or Jatt Sikh is because they are significantly different in terms of autosomal ancestry. It really is that simple. It's not because of sun exposure or lack of it for the most part. That affects skintone but not anywhere as much as autosomal ancestry.

The reason they span the Biradaris is because the Biradaris are actually related offshoots from them. The reason they span to Bangladeshi Shudras is because of garbage calculator models. And the reason they stand alone is because that is what they are, regional isolates like how all scheduled caste and tribe groups are to their regions. The elites mix across regions, not the lower castes. Lower castes are aboriginal to their respective regions.

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 02:02 AM
Wait my post is taken way out of context here. First of all, no one is denying the Punjabi identity of PJLs who cluster with Tamils or Bengali SCs. They are as Punjabis are me or sapporo or bolnat or Zuran. Secondly sapporo did posted pics before I could post, to show the munda influenced Punjabis. Nowhere I denied they are not found in Indian Punjab, so I dont get why some users are getting aggressive. Of Course I know better how punjabis look like than a bengali or a sindhi. I am one, lived in Punjab for 22 years and interact with Pakistani punjabis on regular bases in GTA Canada from past 4 years.

I talk about stereotypes about us from personal inlife experience, not just based on some trolls comments in pashtun forums. I have been told straight on face by my afghan boss, his afghan friend, Pashtuns from peshawar who make majority of taxi drivers in my area and 2 karachhite muhajjir aunties from my previous workplace that I dont look punjabi because they are usually very dark. Which is complete nonsense because we have all colours, but they only associated a certain stereotype with us. Heck when I told them about my grandfather moving from Chaman, they actually thought I had legit non punjabi mix being the reason I dont look punjabi to them. I know what I look like, have no interest in looking non punjabi, and it is a known fact I am a Punjabi nationalist on a lot of anthro forums.

Thanks sapporo for touching the genetics part, @Redifflal, Yes I come under OBC, which also includes non punjabi Jatts, all gujjars, Sainis, Kambojs. It is a newly made term for vote bank. I aint high caste, true, but I dont even come closer to scoring like any bengali like you claimed. For the matter, on multiple PCA plots posted by POI, Khana, I either cluster with Punjabi/Kashmiri brahmins, or a bit south of Kohistanis/Punjabi gujjars depending on what kind of program is used. And yet I dont look like them, also keep in mind those exotic looking kashmiris are Kohistanis.

I hate posting pics of my family to prove anything, comes of as wannabeness, but its hilarious the users who classified them passing in West of Pakistan to Iran to Chitral to Kashmir, are claiming they dont fit outside of Punjab. Here enjoy the diversity of "Whole Punjab", first pic is of my first cousin, no chechan mix in him btw, with his coworkers who are Dalit Punjabis:
]

BTW even south asian looking ones can pass in west Pakistan. They all don't have one look we see on anthro forums. I will not mistake your family for pashtuns though. From pictures it looks like they have local features with shade lighter skin tone. As general public go by skin tones, its quite pointless IMO.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 02:05 AM
and here is myself who was placed in filipines and Bengal:



Don't get me wrong, this pictures are just to show the diversity and break the stereotype people have about punjab, the variation we have. Before someone jumps in and start calling wannabeness.

Look, I am going to apologize if I am coming off aggressive here. First off this is written so you cannot see my tone or expressions. This is to you, Sapporo, Khana, Reza, midichlorian, bmoney, poi, Kurd, anyone really. I know some of you are putting a good amount of effort in running these models, its not that I'm not following all these efforts. I don't intend to call someone's work as garbage, but fundamental aspects in these derived works are just plain simplistic and dismissive of autochthonous diversity of a continuously densely populated land and attributing cultural identity to supposed externally derived ancestry.

But honest question to you MDL, who has said you look Bengali? Has an Indian Bengali or Bangladeshi in person ever said so? My half Bengali ass has trouble getting people to speak back to me in Bengali in Kolkata because they look at me and assume from my height and width that I am a Hindi speaker. Average person in Bengal is going to see a 6'4" South Asian person and switch to Hindi, this is just how this works. Someone telling you off a face shot on an anthro forum that you could pass for Bengali is not a real life interaction boss.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 02:06 AM
BTW even south asian looking ones can pass in west Pakistan. They all don't have one look we see on anthro forums. I will not mistake your family for pashtuns though. From pictures it looks like they have local features with shade lighter skin tone. As general public go by skin tones, its quite pointless IMO.

Because you are familiar with the diversity, and you are punjabi, so it is easy for you to tell. Non punjabis have created stereotypes, and struggle with guessing. And that's where these long triggered posts come in when someone points out the diversity in genetics and looks.

Zuran
07-18-2018, 02:15 AM
24711
Some random PTI thing in my Paternal village. Again by no means am I saying there are no dark skinned Punjabis, but as MLD has said other groups have this stereotypical look of us which is by no means a true reflection of the diversity of our phenotypes.

surbakhunWeesste
07-18-2018, 02:17 AM
24711
Some random PTI thing in my Paternal village. Again by no means am I saying there are no dark skinned Punjabis, but as MLD has said other groups have this stereotypical look of us which is by no means a true reflection of the diversity of our phenotypes.

There is Khanabadoshi in the background with a mustache though.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 02:18 AM
There is Khanabadoshi in the background with a mustache though.

Nah Khana has way more dense glorious beard.

26284729292
07-18-2018, 02:19 AM
The models and the science is not "wrong", but they are also not relevant yet to South Asians. When your calculator's nodes are built around a "South Indian" which then graduates to a ghost-Ancestral-South Indian...which subsequently graduates to a ghost-Ancient-Ancestral-South-Indian, you have to question what is the use of this construct? If a calculator for say modern or ancient Eurasians was built on African components, say your nodes are Yoruba, Somali and Bushmen, your percentages will still add up to 100, but how relevant is that to draw conclusions? This is the issue with the models for Indian subcontinent. A Punjabi Chamar and a Bangladeshi Namashudra have NOT shared ancestry going over 10,000 years maybe more but your calculator will not pick that up because that entire aspect is getting clubbed under some type of "South Indian"...and then you are running off with that saying that Punjabi Chamars overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras according to calculator.
This is comical man. Not a single one of the Punjabi Scheduled Castes folks you posted or I posted have any chance of passing in rural Bengal or Bihar for that matter. You guys are so in your heads proving "we can be white too" with your contests versus some racist Pashtuns, you are so concerned about showing how you and Punjabi Scheduled Castes are different. Yeah, they are different from you. WITHIN PUNJAB!! Your Punjabi Chamar does not matter how Australoid featured his face is or jet black his complexion is, he is guaranteed to be on average sharper featured and taller and stockier build than the same caste counterparts deeper inside the subcontinent. What is so hard to understand about this? If according to these GIGO calculators these Punjabi Chamars apparently overlapped with Bengali Shudras, then why the cline in physical size and feature sharpness? Oh, they derive from slightly higher Caucasoid components in Punjab than in Bengalis? What a diversion/obfuscation lol. Then why isn't the same higher Caucasoid elements in an upper caste Bengali or other Purbiya (UP/Bihar) not responsible for the same look as a Punjabi Chamar? Instead a Bengali upper-caste looks only like a depigmented version of a Bengali SC, barring some Bengali Brahmins who have historical migration from UP. Either way no Bengali Brahmin ever looks like any kind of Punjabi. There is a fundamental element of real Punjabi genes missing, latter being ubiquitous in all Punjabis of all castes.

These calculators as far as having relevance are only within a region. So if real relevant model nodes for South Asians become available (like Kashmir Hunter Gatherers, Punjab Hunter Gatherers, Gangetic Hunter Gatherers, Gujarat Hunter Gatherers, Karnataka Hunter Gatherers etc), you will have different set of numbers but Punjabi Chamar and Punjabi Biradari will show their real differences, but also and more importantly, the overlap of Punjabi Chamar and Bengali Shudra will go down to 0. There will instead remain overlap between Punjabi Brahmin with Bengali Brahmin and matter of fact, a Punjabi Brahmin will have more real genetic overlap with lower caste populations southeast of Punjab by way of the upper caste populations southeast of Punjab. Hence my point that the upper-castes are more related to each other in reality than the lower castes who are very very native and unique to their regions.



Actually I am more interested in deconstructing the relevance of Iran_N first to Indian subcontinent population structure and history than AMT. But Iran_N is defined from aDNA from Zagros from 7000BC, there is nothing down the pipeline for replacing this. Because Iran_N is basis for ASI and AASI, the models are throwing out garbage like "overlap" of distant populations like Punjabi Chamars and Bangladeshi Namashudras. I also am not sure what point you are making with the Swat valley samples. What exactly did they prove? No substantial Steppe impact when it is supposed to happen but happening gradually into heyday of classical post-Vedantic era. Also all talk of uniparental y-haps supposedly so putative that they changed the composition of Indian subcontinent is barely there now, so now let's talk up how uniparentals aren't really indicative anyway. Don't tell me which Swat sample is x% AASI and x% Steppe and x%-Indus-Periphery, because AASI is still from the !Iran_N, so a dubious category that again, gives you garbage like Punjabi Chamars supposedly having overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras.



The reason they span the Biradaris is because the Biradaris are actually related offshoots from them. The reason they span to Bangladeshi Shudras is because of garbage calculator models. And the reason they stand alone is because that is what they are, regional isolates like how all scheduled caste and tribe groups are to their regions. The elites mix across regions, not the lower castes. Lower castes are aboriginal to their respective regions.


I dunno about the depigmented comment man. Do I look like a depigmented Tamil in my pictures in the lounge? I'm not really seeing that analogy man.

I think you're underestimating migration/gene flow.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 02:21 AM
A Punjabi SC (or SC originated Muslim) like folks below are supposed to overlap with Bengali SC?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yp1cobbgYso/0.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3393848075_9a7dfd4963.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/201/472189366_00fece68d7_z.jpg?zz=1
^^ Japanese tourist in between the two famous dholis Gunga Saeen and Mitthu Saeen

Below are the Bengali SC that Punjabi SC overlap with?
https://d12hobgrxzrq71.cloudfront.net/images/7Q1F8uHk-720.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/p6YQiet8mNc/maxresdefault.jpg

Come on yos, the caste stuff is only genetically a distinguishing factor inside of a region, since endogamy in principle means that only a select 5% of your SURROUNDING population is potential marriage mate, key word is surrounding. This can't mean that the lower castes are genetically related across regions just because a calculator model said so.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 02:26 AM
I dunno about the depigmented comment man. Do I look like a depigmented Tamil in my pictures in the lounge? I'm not really seeing that analogy man.

I think you're underestimating migration/gene flow.


No you don't look like a depigmented SC Tamil. But someone like Raghuram Rajan or CV Raman does. But a point I am making is that the upper castes have more cross-regional mixing involved. TamBrams have historical movement from UP to Tamil Nad. According to tipirneni there is also a movement of Bengali Brahmins into Andhra and then from there into TN in the medieval era. So a bit of that is what him and I think is going on in your phenotype. Also I doubt your phenotype is just a random thing, I am sure you have both or at least one parent or grandparent that you look like, hence it is ancestral, not just some random phenotype popping up.

tipirneni
07-18-2018, 02:37 AM
A Punjabi SC (or SC originated Muslim) like folks below are supposed to overlap with Bengali SC?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yp1cobbgYso/0.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3393848075_9a7dfd4963.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/201/472189366_00fece68d7_z.jpg?zz=1
^^ Japanese tourist in between the two famous dholis Gunga Saeen and Mitthu Saeen

Below are the Bengali SC that Punjabi SC overlap with?
https://d12hobgrxzrq71.cloudfront.net/images/7Q1F8uHk-720.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/p6YQiet8mNc/maxresdefault.jpg

Come on yos, the caste stuff is only genetically a distinguishing factor inside of a region, since endogamy in principle means that only a select 5% of your SURROUNDING population is potential marriage mate, key word is surrounding. This can't mean that the lower castes are genetically related across regions just because a calculator model said so.

In most societies around the world patriarchy is practiced to group the rulers & main people in the society. However the Indian society was very accommodating in the sense the people from earlier migrations were not killed or chased away. Rather the society was segmented to create a occupation/place for every one. over the time some of these tribes who are more enterprising were able to move up the caste/class. We see instances of ministers from lower segments of the society in medieval times. However as you say maintaining class/caste across state boundaries requires effort & money which lower castes can't afford.

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 02:41 AM
24711
Some random PTI thing in my Paternal village. Again by no means am I saying there are no dark skinned Punjabis, but as MLD has said other groups have this stereotypical look of us which is by no means a true reflection of the diversity of our phenotypes.

This is generic rural central punjab look. I would say as you go further north west punjab, like Murree rural people will have bit more sharper features and more Kashmiri like looks. And as you go to rural south punjab seraiki pinds, people will tend to look more closer to sindhis.

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 02:51 AM
@rediffial What you’re doing is called cherry picking individuals. I can probably find Punjabi chamars who look pseudo West Asian without too much trouble. Even some Dalits will blend in with biradaris but that SC man you posted stands out among the Punjabi Dalits I posted earlier and the Bengali woman you posted is a weathered old woman. If you posted a group pic of middle aged scheduled caste Bengali folks, I’m sure they would overlap with Punjabi Dalits.

As for the rest of your aggressive post, I’ll respond to parts of it later. Some of your opinions seem heavily based on conjecture and supposed super region specific genetic differentiation that to me borders on pseudoscience. Like you’re actually suggesting that groups such as Punjabi Hunter gatherer, Bengali Hunter Gatherer, Kashmiri Hunter Gatherer, Gujarati Hunter Gatherer, Tamil Hunter Gatherer, etc. existed. I have hard time believing that when many of these ethnic identities are quite young in comparison to ancient Iran N, Steppe or AASI populations. The Punjabi identity for example is less than 1000 years old and encompasses a wide variety of tribes and groups (numbering 100 million +) and having their own distinct migration histories and ethnogenesis.

Also, the fact that individuals from across South Asia can be accurately and tightly modeled using the fairly simplistic Iran N + Steppe + AASI model using ancient samples from Swat, BMAC, etc. suggests that the ancestry in South Asia is shared across the 1 billion + population but just in differing proportions. What basis is there to suggest Punjabi hunter gatherers, Bengali hunter Gatherers, etc. existed? Because your supposed phenotype observations of Punjabis and Bengalis? Well, I vehemently disagree. I don’t think there is some super Punjabi specific look that unites all Punjabi Dalits/SC/ST with autosomally different biradaris.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 03:01 AM
@rediffial What youíre doing is called cherry picking individuals. I can probably find Punjabi chamars who look pseudo West Asian without too much trouble. Even some Dalits will blend in with biradaris but that SC man you posted stands out among the Punjabi Dalits I posted earlier and the Bengali woman you posted is a weathered old woman. If you posted a group pic of middle aged scheduled caste Bengali folks, Iím sure they would overlap with Punjabi Dalits.

As for the rest of your aggressive post, Iíll respond to parts of it later. Some of your opinions seem heavily based on conjecture and supposed super region specific genetic differentiation that to me borders on pseudoscience. Like youíre actually suggesting that groups such as Punjabi Hunter gatherer, Bengali Hunter Gatherer, Kashmiri Hunter Gatherer, Gujarati Hunter Gatherer, Tamil Hunter Gatherer, etc. existed. I have hard time believing that when many of these ethnic identities are quite young in comparison to ancient Iran N, Steppe or AASI populations. The Punjabi identity for example is less than 1000 years old and encompasses a wide variety of tribes and groups (numbering 100 million +) and having their own distinct migration histories and ethnogenesis.

I never said Punjabi Hunter Gatherers I said Punjab Hunter Gatherers, as in regionally isolated and relevant populations in the region from prior to advent of agriculture in the region. Obviously I'm not saying they were ethnic Punjabis or Kashmiris. Where in any of this are you getting that from? Nobody says Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers (SHG) are ethnic Scandinavians as in the modern populations. I hope this isn't intentional obfuscation and just an oversight. I will look forward to rest of your response.

I have also not posted any old Bengali woman. The only woman I posted is Punjabi. Rest are all men both the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 03:26 AM
In election videos one can see north to south cline in terms of phenotype, this is irrespective of baradaris. Because northen rajputs don't quite look like southern rajputs. This is irrespective of the harappa calculator results because we know at this point its not as straight forward.

Another reason is chuhra/mussali like population was much less as one moves towards potohar, they were concentrated in irrigated lands and cities. So one will see less of them in certain regions.

Do southern Punjab Rajputs have the Multani/Sindhi/West Asian pull genotypically?

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 03:26 AM
I never said Punjabi Hunter Gatherers I said Punjab Hunter Gatherers, as in regionally isolated and relevant populations in the region from prior to advent of agriculture in the region. Obviously I'm not saying they were ethnic Punjabis or Kashmiris. Where in any of this are you getting that from? Nobody says Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers (SHG) are ethnic Scandinavians as in the modern populations. I hope this isn't intentional obfuscation and just an oversight. I will look forward to rest of your response.

I have also not posted any old Bengali woman. The only woman I posted is Punjabi. Rest are all men both the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC.

No, it’s not intentional obfuscation. To me, it’s just a matter of semantics. The point is you’re referring to a regionally isolated population. You’re implying it’s also genetically relevant right? Prior to the advent of agriculture? What does that imply other than region specific hunter gatherer AASI populations? I’ve already considered that plausibility quite some time ago but I’m hard pressed to believe it was so specific you could easily isolate them into PHG, KHG, BHG, etc. if you had the ancient DNA.

Well that proves my point. I mistook her for a Bengali SC woman. On a group level, I think there would be phenotype overlap between PJL samples who autosomally overlap with Bengali SC or South Indian midcaste.

As for the SHG comparison, I’m not sure how on point it is. Are SHG older than other European ancients such as WHG, EEF, etc. or just a region specific population composed of other European ancients such as WHG, EEF, etc? I’m not that familiar with them.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 03:27 AM
Also, the fact that individuals from across South Asia can be accurately and tightly modeled using the fairly simplistic Iran N + Steppe + AASI model using ancient samples from Swat, BMAC, etc. suggests that the ancestry in South Asia is shared across the 1 billion + population but just in differing proportions. What basis is there to suggest Punjabi hunter gatherers, Bengali hunter Gatherers, etc. existed? Because your supposed phenotype observations of Punjabis and Bengalis? Well, I vehemently disagree. I don’t think there is some super Punjabi specific look that unites all Punjabi Dalits/SC/ST with autosomally different biradaris.

Incorrect! Please be honest regarding these assertions. This model is not a 3-way model but rather a 2ish-way as AASI is ghost and defined precisely as (Indus_Periphery MINUS Iran_N). So what exactly is being fitted? It is equivalent to a model with chimpanzee and Neanderthal and a ghost population described as the non-chimpanzee....

And who said there is some cross-Punjabi look? Thousands of years of endogamy of different groups inside a region will mean there is no super-cross-Punjabi look. BUT you cannot claim that a Punjabi SC and Bengali SC are somehow related (beyond OOA continuity) based on how some calculator lacking any of the necessary aDNA and still based off of proper West-Eurasian-found aDNA. You are somehow getting triggered off of some garbage online fights you had with Pashtuns in regards to "we be diverse looking". You need to train your guns in the opposite direction here, as in not towards a group NW of you but far much further SE of you. So come at me correctly. I have let know both MDL and you that you guys stand out like a sore thumb among average Bengalis due to your overall phenotype. Of course neither of you are Punjabi SC, but I wanted to clarify the point anyway. A Punjabi SC stands out just as much if not more amongst Bengali SC's. It is up to you to prove that Punjabi SC and Bengali SC are actually related beyond OOA continuity. And I have a legitimate scientifically based objection towards using a calculator that is primarily using aDNA from Zagros mountains in 7000BC, aDNA from Bronze Age Steppe and doing a subtraction on individuals deemed Indus Periphery from the Zagros folks to say that is AASI.

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 03:45 AM
Do southern Punjab Rajputs have the Multani/Sindhi/West Asian pull genotypically?

I have not seen any DNA results of seraiki rajput but seraiki people have sindhi pull because of historical reasons.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 03:46 AM
The models and the science is not "wrong", but they are also not relevant yet to South Asians. When your calculator's nodes are built around a "South Indian" which then graduates to a ghost-Ancestral-South Indian...which subsequently graduates to a ghost-Ancient-Ancestral-South-Indian, you have to question what is the use of this construct? If a calculator for say modern or ancient Eurasians was built on African components, say your nodes are Yoruba, Somali and Bushmen, your percentages will still add up to 100, but how relevant is that to draw conclusions? This is the issue with the models for Indian subcontinent. A Punjabi Chamar and a Bangladeshi Namashudra have NOT shared ancestry going over 10,000 years maybe more but your calculator will not pick that up because that entire aspect is getting clubbed under some type of "South Indian"...and then you are running off with that saying that Punjabi Chamars overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras according to calculator.
This is comical man. Not a single one of the Punjabi Scheduled Castes folks you posted or I posted have any chance of passing in rural Bengal or Bihar for that matter. You guys are so in your heads proving "we can be white too" with your contests versus some racist Pashtuns, you are so concerned about showing how you and Punjabi Scheduled Castes are different. Yeah, they are different from you. WITHIN PUNJAB!! Your Punjabi Chamar does not matter how Australoid featured his face is or jet black his complexion is, he is guaranteed to be on average sharper featured and taller and stockier build than the same caste counterparts deeper inside the subcontinent. What is so hard to understand about this? If according to these GIGO calculators these Punjabi Chamars apparently overlapped with Bengali Shudras, then why the cline in physical size and feature sharpness? Oh, they derive from slightly higher Caucasoid components in Punjab than in Bengalis? What a diversion/obfuscation lol. Then why isn't the same higher Caucasoid elements in an upper caste Bengali or other Purbiya (UP/Bihar) not responsible for the same look as a Punjabi Chamar? Instead a Bengali upper-caste looks only like a depigmented version of a Bengali SC, barring some Bengali Brahmins who have historical migration from UP. Either way no Bengali Brahmin ever looks like any kind of Punjabi. There is a fundamental element of real Punjabi genes missing, latter being ubiquitous in all Punjabis of all castes.

These calculators as far as having relevance are only within a region. So if real relevant model nodes for South Asians become available (like Kashmir Hunter Gatherers, Punjab Hunter Gatherers, Gangetic Hunter Gatherers, Gujarat Hunter Gatherers, Karnataka Hunter Gatherers etc), you will have different set of numbers but Punjabi Chamar and Punjabi Biradari will show their real differences, but also and more importantly, the overlap of Punjabi Chamar and Bengali Shudra will go down to 0. There will instead remain overlap between Punjabi Brahmin with Bengali Brahmin and matter of fact, a Punjabi Brahmin will have more real genetic overlap with lower caste populations southeast of Punjab by way of the upper caste populations southeast of Punjab. Hence my point that the upper-castes are more related to each other in reality than the lower castes who are very very native and unique to their regions.



Actually I am more interested in deconstructing the relevance of Iran_N first to Indian subcontinent population structure and history than AMT. But Iran_N is defined from aDNA from Zagros from 7000BC, there is nothing down the pipeline for replacing this. Because Iran_N is basis for ASI and AASI, the models are throwing out garbage like "overlap" of distant populations like Punjabi Chamars and Bangladeshi Namashudras. I also am not sure what point you are making with the Swat valley samples. What exactly did they prove? No substantial Steppe impact when it is supposed to happen but happening gradually into heyday of classical post-Vedantic era. Also all talk of uniparental y-haps supposedly so putative that they changed the composition of Indian subcontinent is barely there now, so now let's talk up how uniparentals aren't really indicative anyway. Don't tell me which Swat sample is x% AASI and x% Steppe and x%-Indus-Periphery, because AASI is still from the !Iran_N, so a dubious category that again, gives you garbage like Punjabi Chamars supposedly having overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras.



The reason they span the Biradaris is because the Biradaris are actually related offshoots from them. The reason they span to Bangladeshi Shudras is because of garbage calculator models. And the reason they stand alone is because that is what they are, regional isolates like how all scheduled caste and tribe groups are to their regions. The elites mix across regions, not the lower castes. Lower castes are aboriginal to their respective regions.

Disagree bruv

On the points of:

- Yes the calculators are not perfect yet, but this does not mean that they are bad. AASI substructure will be found as soon as models get more granular, which separates the AASI a PJL or Bengali Namashudra scores from the AASI a South Indian scores. This might reflect haplogroup M substructure.

- Caste substructure definitely exists within regions, both South Asias and European researchers have found this. In some states like Punjab, its extreme and almost approaches Brazil-like multiracial levels.

For me, Paniyas belong to my state within 200kms of my 'pind' and yet I'm closer to a Gujarati genetically. This isn't wannabeness but the fact that I can confidently deny we ever mixed with the Paniya in our history. Even the AASI I score is likely to be non-Paniya sourced judging by my mtdna. This type of structure is common all over South Asia where certain groups were founded by migratory events or admixture events with migratory groups such as the Kushans for example in North India.

- Using the evidence up to this point, we can say South Asia was a population sink rather than a population exporter. So all South Asians are the product of different migrations which makes it easier to form substructures that persist.

- AASI has nothing to do with Iran_N, though I recently read via Kale that Iran_N has some pre-ANE ENA admixture that shows up as ANE in calcs.

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 03:51 AM
Because you are familiar with the diversity, and you are punjabi, so it is easy for you to tell. Non punjabis have created stereotypes, and struggle with guessing. And that's where these long triggered posts come in when someone points out the diversity in genetics and looks.

Oh yes there is some diversity, first photo of your cousin look like pseudo Kashmiri. But rest have local features despite variation in skin tone.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 03:56 AM
Oh yes there is some diversity, first photo of your cousin look like pseudo Kashmiri. But rest have local features despite variation in skin tone.

And all these people were guessed as exotic types by non punjabi anthro users. So you get my point about how much non punjabis know about our looks and diversity.

26284729292
07-18-2018, 04:16 AM
Disagree bruv

On the points of:

- Yes the calculators are not perfect yet, but this does not mean that they are bad. AASI substructure will be found as soon as models get more granular, which separates the AASI a PJL or Bengali Namashudra scores from the AASI a South Indian scores. This might reflect haplogroup M substructure.

- Caste substructure definitely exists within regions, both South Asias and European researchers have found this. In some states like Punjab, its extreme and almost approaches Brazil-like multiracial levels.

For me, Paniyas belong to my state within 200kms of my 'pind' and yet I'm closer to a Gujarati genetically. This isn't wannabeness but the fact that I can confidently deny we ever mixed with the Paniya in our history. Even the AASI I score is likely to be non-Paniya sourced judging by my mtdna. This type of structure is common all over South Asia where certain groups were founded by migratory events or admixture events with migratory groups such as the Kushans for example in North India.

- Using the evidence up to this point, we can say South Asia was a population sink rather than a population exporter. So all South Asians are the product of different migrations which makes it easier to form substructures that persist.

- AASI has nothing to do with Iran_N, though I recently read via Kale that Iran_N has some pre-ANE ENA admixture that shows up as ANE in calcs.

Agree so hard here. There's more truth to this than people understand.

surbakhunWeesste
07-18-2018, 04:18 AM
Oh yes there is some diversity, first photo of your cousin look like pseudo Kashmiri. But rest have local features despite variation in skin tone.

That guy looked punjabi to me, his nose and mouth region screams India, nothing foreign, well! I am an outsider though, doesn't come off as Chechen.

26284729292
07-18-2018, 04:18 AM
@monkeylduffy

This is something I've come to appreciate after spending significant time in Northern California, mainly near Sacramento, which has a sizeable Jatt community, and also having a Jatt roommate while I was in college. Punjab has massive diversity and the stereotypes are way off.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 04:22 AM
No, itís not intentional obfuscation. To me, itís just a matter of semantics. The point is youíre referring to a regionally isolated population. Youíre implying itís also genetically relevant right? Prior to the advent of agriculture? What does that imply other than region specific hunter gatherer AASI populations? Iíve already considered that plausibility quite some time ago but Iím hard pressed to believe it was so specific you could easily isolate them into PHG, KHG, BHG, etc. if you had the ancient DNA.

Yes and no. No regarding region-specific "AASI". AASI is IP-Iran_N. Follow me down this hypothetical path. What if you had aDNA from 9000BC from Punjab region and Bengal region that we will label PHG and BHG respectively. Let us say in the Iran_N/Steppe/AASI model a Punjabi SC scored 35% AASI, 55% Iran_N and 10% Steppe. Likewise a Bengali SC scored 50% AASI, 45% Iran_N and 5% Steppe. So far generally agreeable on such numbers? Now let us model with PHG and BHG added to the mix and we take AASI out, leave Iran_N and Steppe in still, so now we have a 4-way model. My assertion is that Punjabi SC will be 90% PHG, 7% Iran_N, 3% Steppe and 0% BHG. And on other hand, the Bengali SC will be 0% PHG, 4% Iran_N, 1% Steppe and 95% BHG. If I were to tabulate this out, it would look like following. I have chosen the old-model numbers with what I think is likely the case as of now, but what I want to be noted is how and what components get "eaten" into the nodes in the new hypothetical model...


Old Model:
Iran_N
Steppe
AASI
New Model:
PHG
Iran_N
Steppe
BHG


Punjab SC
55
10
35

90
7
3
0


Bengal SC
45
5
50

0
4
1
95






Well that proves my point. I mistook her for a Bengali SC woman. On a group level, I think there would be phenotype overlap between PJL samples who autosomally overlap with Bengali SC or South Indian midcaste.
More like it proves I didn't cherrypick.



As for the SHG comparison, Iím not sure how on point it is. Are SHG older than other European ancients such as WHG, EEF, etc. or just a region specific population composed of other European ancients such as WHG, EEF, etc? Iím not that familiar with them.
They are defined from the Mesolithic aDNA found in modern-day area known as Scandinavia. Anyway, what I don't understand is how the population history of a historically 1/10th numbers-wise populated Europe or even all of Western Eurasia can have so many differentiated ancient components to explain it like WHG, SHG, EHG, CHG, Steppe_EMBA, Steppe_MLBA, Iran_N, Anatolia_N, Basal Eurasian, Natufian_N, Levant_N, ANE, etc etc while folks can sit there and say that Indian population can be explained by Iran_N, Steppe and a ghost AASI? And you really asked if PHG or BHG or KHG are AASI regional variants? Can't unwrap from the constructed West-Eurasian-non-West-Eurasian model it seems like. What is distance from Punjab to tip of Sri Lanka? It is equal to distance from Punjab to Kazakhstan. Mercator map projections are doing a number on us it seems. We are talking prior to onset of agriculture and civilization, it isn't like India or subcontinent is some magical nation that exists always into paleolithic eternity. What is "regional" (as opposed to continental? national? what?) about a PHG/BHG/KHG/etc construct? Distances are considerable. Why there cannot be regionally isolated independent hunter gatherer populations across subcontinent? Also I never claimed that the regional isolation remains into modern populations. Matter of fact I made it a point to state that upper caste folks are likely to be bridges of the various isolated populations. Just like for Europeans nobody said that modern day Norwegians are 100% SHG and modern day Britons are 100% WHG and modern day Russians are 100% ANE. Nope, big mashup going on everywhere and there can always be groups stronger in some ancient component on the other side geographically or not exactly contiguous from its direction of spread. So why a modern day TamBrahm cannot be explained as 75% Gangetic Hunter Gatherer 20% Tamil Hunter Gatherer 5% Steppe or something?

I am asking that you, and by you, I mean a generic you and I and all of us, that why would you feel that wham open and shut case all work that needed to be done is done when we are still haggling around with garbage 2.5-way models? Also why should I be content in some model with nodes so far from home and not only that even the little bit of aDNA found (which in my opinion is very very far removed for the core population history of Bengalis and by that I am referring to the Bengali SCs) is still used as a derived population of something outside and that is used to explain what may have been the characteristic of the entire massive region inside?

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 04:28 AM
And all these people were guessed as exotic types by non punjabi anthro users. So you get my point about how much non punjabis know about our looks and diversity.

Half of the time anthro forum users are trolling, probably more. Apart from your pseudo kashmiri looking cousin. It also goes both ways, if someone posted some random masih picture then people wouldn't guess punjab first up. Even though masih like people are more in numbers then kashmiri looking ones.

Censored
07-18-2018, 04:30 AM
The models and the science is not "wrong", but they are also not relevant yet to South Asians. When your calculator's nodes are built around a "South Indian" which then graduates to a ghost-Ancestral-South Indian...which subsequently graduates to a ghost-Ancient-Ancestral-South-Indian, you have to question what is the use of this construct? If a calculator for say modern or ancient Eurasians was built on African components, say your nodes are Yoruba, Somali and Bushmen, your percentages will still add up to 100, but how relevant is that to draw conclusions? This is the issue with the models for Indian subcontinent. A Punjabi Chamar and a Bangladeshi Namashudra have NOT shared ancestry going over 10,000 years maybe more but your calculator will not pick that up because that entire aspect is getting clubbed under some type of "South Indian"...and then you are running off with that saying that Punjabi Chamars overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras according to calculator.
This is comical man. Not a single one of the Punjabi Scheduled Castes folks you posted or I posted have any chance of passing in rural Bengal or Bihar for that matter. You guys are so in your heads proving "we can be white too" with your contests versus some racist Pashtuns, you are so concerned about showing how you and Punjabi Scheduled Castes are different. Yeah, they are different from you. WITHIN PUNJAB!! Your Punjabi Chamar does not matter how Australoid featured his face is or jet black his complexion is, he is guaranteed to be on average sharper featured and taller and stockier build than the same caste counterparts deeper inside the subcontinent. What is so hard to understand about this? If according to these GIGO calculators these Punjabi Chamars apparently overlapped with Bengali Shudras, then why the cline in physical size and feature sharpness? Oh, they derive from slightly higher Caucasoid components in Punjab than in Bengalis? What a diversion/obfuscation lol. Then why isn't the same higher Caucasoid elements in an upper caste Bengali or other Purbiya (UP/Bihar) not responsible for the same look as a Punjabi Chamar? Instead a Bengali upper-caste looks only like a depigmented version of a Bengali SC, barring some Bengali Brahmins who have historical migration from UP. Either way no Bengali Brahmin ever looks like any kind of Punjabi. There is a fundamental element of real Punjabi genes missing, latter being ubiquitous in all Punjabis of all castes.

These calculators as far as having relevance are only within a region. So if real relevant model nodes for South Asians become available (like Kashmir Hunter Gatherers, Punjab Hunter Gatherers, Gangetic Hunter Gatherers, Gujarat Hunter Gatherers, Karnataka Hunter Gatherers etc), you will have different set of numbers but Punjabi Chamar and Punjabi Biradari will show their real differences, but also and more importantly, the overlap of Punjabi Chamar and Bengali Shudra will go down to 0. There will instead remain overlap between Punjabi Brahmin with Bengali Brahmin and matter of fact, a Punjabi Brahmin will have more real genetic overlap with lower caste populations southeast of Punjab by way of the upper caste populations southeast of Punjab. Hence my point that the upper-castes are more related to each other in reality than the lower castes who are very very native and unique to their regions.



Actually I am more interested in deconstructing the relevance of Iran_N first to Indian subcontinent population structure and history than AMT. But Iran_N is defined from aDNA from Zagros from 7000BC, there is nothing down the pipeline for replacing this. Because Iran_N is basis for ASI and AASI, the models are throwing out garbage like "overlap" of distant populations like Punjabi Chamars and Bangladeshi Namashudras. I also am not sure what point you are making with the Swat valley samples. What exactly did they prove? No substantial Steppe impact when it is supposed to happen but happening gradually into heyday of classical post-Vedantic era. Also all talk of uniparental y-haps supposedly so putative that they changed the composition of Indian subcontinent is barely there now, so now let's talk up how uniparentals aren't really indicative anyway. Don't tell me which Swat sample is x% AASI and x% Steppe and x%-Indus-Periphery, because AASI is still from the !Iran_N, so a dubious category that again, gives you garbage like Punjabi Chamars supposedly having overlap with Bangladeshi Namashudras.



The reason they span the Biradaris is because the Biradaris are actually related offshoots from them. The reason they span to Bangladeshi Shudras is because of garbage calculator models. And the reason they stand alone is because that is what they are, regional isolates like how all scheduled caste and tribe groups are to their regions. The elites mix across regions, not the lower castes. Lower castes are aboriginal to their respective regions.

In the past I have talked about natural selection in certain areas affecting the kind of phenotypes present in the area independent from ancestral admixture. I think it's worth bringing that up again because it can go some way in explaining what you're describing. So you're saying there are certain looks unique to certain ethnic groups regardless of where they seem to plot on admixture calculators and asking why certain groups appear much closer to the typical look of their region rather than those that might be distant but who they're genetically closer to.

You have to remember that the genes that control phenotypic expression are a very tiny fraction of the total genes in an individual. It is possible, for instance, that the gene for sharp noses could quickly proliferate across a region because of selection while overall genetic differences are still preserved.

Still, I have seen a lot of Pakistanis in my area who seemed quite dark and Dravidian looking, even compared to me. It didn't make sense until I found out that Lahore is an ASI pocket(a huge chunk of them come from there). So there is a link between admixture and phenotype, but it's not 100% direct.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 04:30 AM
Yes and no. No regarding region-specific "AASI". AASI is IP-Iran_N.

Thats ASI, not AASI. AASI is the ENA component of ASI which is about 75% IIRC.

Iran-N is about as diverged from AASI as any two world ancient populations can be, ASI was probably one of the biggest examples of ancient multiracial mixing in the World.

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 04:34 AM
That guy looked punjabi to me, his nose and mouth region screams India, nothing foreign, well! I am an outsider though, doesn't come off as Chechen.

I was talking about this cousin. Out of all pictures of his family this one have more chances of being guessed as some exotic type. I meant some pseudo kashmiri/pahari like and not Chechen. So within India.

deleted

surbakhunWeesste
07-18-2018, 04:38 AM
I was talking about this cousin. Out of all pictures of his family have more chances of being guessed as some exotic type. I meant some kashmiri/pahari like and not Chechen. So within India.

[IMG]

Ah! yeah I agree,he looks Kashmiri to me as well than punjabi, esp. the nose?
I wrote about a different guy, I think he was wearing a black hoodie.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 04:48 AM
Disagree bruv

I will place my response in the order it needs to go for the rebuttal.



AASI has nothing to do with Iran_N, though I recently read via Kale that Iran_N has some pre-ANE ENA admixture that shows up as ANE in calcs.

AASI has everything to do with Iran_N. By definition. The equation is AASI = Indus_Periphery MINUS Iran_N. See if the rest of your points hold water (or how much of the original water) based on this.




- Yes the calculators are not perfect yet, but this does not mean that they are bad. AASI substructure will be found as soon as models get more granular, which separates the AASI a PJL or Bengali Namashudra scores from the AASI a South Indian scores. This might reflect haplogroup M substructure.
It is not "AASI substructure". Any aDNA from any region of subcontinent prior to 7000BC will invalidate Iran_N and AASI in one shot. Or at that point we could be recursively saying Punjab Hunter Gatherer of 9000BC is 80% Iran_N 20% AASI while Bengal Hunter Gatherer of 9000BC is 50% Iran_N 50% AASI, which at that point would just be silly and circular as 7000BC cannot define 9000BC. My hope had been InPe or at least Swat valley would not be given this Iran_N/non-Iran_N treatment but unfortunately it did. Rakhigarhi is also going to be split this way because it is not older than 7000BC.



- Caste substructure definitely exists within regions, both South Asias and European researchers have found this. In some states like Punjab, its extreme and almost approaches Brazil-like multiracial levels.
Never disagreed on this. But racial phenotypes also don't require a long time to recombine and change especially if all groups are practicing endogamy. I can almost tell a Bengali person's caste and religion and subregion from their phenotype. Doesn't mean I chalk up the differences to outside influences though, or when necessary I do do so. Some Bengali castes and communities legit are assimilated Biharis, some are legit assimilated Nagas, etc. But everyone doesn't have to "come" from somewhere.



For me, Paniyas belong to my state within 200kms of my 'pind' and yet I'm closer to a Gujarati genetically. This isn't wannabeness but the fact that I can confidently deny we ever mixed with the Paniya in our history. Even the AASI I score is likely to be non-Paniya sourced judging by my mtdna. This type of structure is common all over South Asia where certain groups were founded by migratory events or admixture events with migratory groups such as the Kushans for example in North India.
Refer to AASI point above. You score with Gujjus, but you said your community also has migration history from UP if I'm not mistaken. What if with proper aDNA you are 40% Gangetic Hunter Gatherer and 60% Kerala Hunter Gatherer while the Paniya is 95% Kerala Hunter Gatherer?



- Using the evidence up to this point, we can say South Asia was a population sink rather than a population exporter. So all South Asians are the product of different migrations which makes it easier to form substructures that persist.

I do not disagree on this. Also I'm not concerned about what is going on outside South Asia as much as South Asia in itself is or historically is a world unto its own. I don't think entire demographics need to move either direction to explain genetic continuities across Eurasia. Also I've always been agnostic about PIE and where etc. Again PIE can have come from native Americans doesn't mean it needs to have a genetic signal or be part of the genetic story.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 04:57 AM
Thats ASI, not AASI. AASI is the ENA component of ASI which is about 75% IIRC.

Iran-N is about as diverged from AASI as any two world ancient populations can be, ASI was probably one of the biggest examples of ancient multiracial mixing in the World.

Nah bro come on ASI was defined before Indus Periphery when only modern South Asian dna was available. ASI definition was even more absurd. AASI is less absurd relatively. Of course AASI will be extremely diverged from Iran_N. It has to be. Just from the mathematical definition.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 05:14 AM
I was talking about this cousin. Out of all pictures of his family this one have more chances of being guessed as some exotic type. I meant some pseudo kashmiri/pahari like and not Chechen. So within India.

deleted

MDL's cousin does not look non-Punjabi to me and as is usual he can overlap with average Jammu Dogris, Kashmiris, etc. Majid Khan still stands out in comparison to fellow KMs and definitely KPs. Below is a KP with slight blondism in mustache so it isn't about blondism of Majid Khan.
https://thelogicalindian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/pandits-750x500.jpg
And of course if you look at larger group pics of KPs you see the generic range of phenotypes typical for nw subcontinent but still no Majid Khan-esque phenos walking around here and there everywhere:
http://static.atimes.com/uploads/2018/03/images-3-960x576.jpeg

passion
07-18-2018, 05:22 AM
MDL's cousin does not look non-Punjabi to me and as is usual he can overlap with average Jammu Dogris, Kashmiris, etc. Majid Khan still stands out in comparison to fellow KMs and definitely KPs. Below is a KP with slight blondism in mustache so it isn't about blondism of Majid Khan.
https://thelogicalindian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/pandits-750x500.jpg
And of course if you look at larger group pics of KPs you see the generic range of phenotypes typical for nw subcontinent but still no Majid Khan-esque phenos walking around here and there everywhere:
http://static.atimes.com/uploads/2018/03/images-3-960x576.jpeg

majid khan as similarities to these two guys from North Pakistan

https://i.imgur.com/z0OaYVT.png

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 05:33 AM
MDL's cousin does not look non-Punjabi to me and as is usual he can overlap with average Jammu Dogris, Kashmiris, etc. Majid Khan still stands out in comparison to fellow KMs and definitely KPs. Below is a KP with slight blondism in mustache so it isn't about blondism of Majid Khan.
https://thelogicalindian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/pandits-750x500.jpg
And of course if you look at larger group pics of KPs you see the generic range of phenotypes typical for nw subcontinent but still no Majid Khan-esque phenos walking around here and there everywhere:
http://static.atimes.com/uploads/2018/03/images-3-960x576.jpeg

I only pointed out which one look bit exotic out of all the pictures he posted, other user surbakhun also agreed with me. This punjabi look and non-punjabi debate will not go anywhere.

This is masih from Kharian city originally

deleted

all three look punjabi, speak punjabi, are from Pakistan punjab, Kharian tehsil. Just that my family looks are more common in Kharian tehsil pinds then masih one. I do agree with you on caste based difference in looks. Its hard to pick apart rajput, jatt, gujjar, awan etc in Kharian and they look more like each other then lets say to rajput and jatts of Haryana. But masih like communities are exception.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 05:56 AM
majid khan as similarities to these two guys from North Pakistan

https://i.imgur.com/z0OaYVT.png

Ah yes, now I am finally seeing a similar phenotype. Thanks for finding it.

Still think we'll be hard pressed to find it in KP's. I have been scouring through KP pics on google since yesterday or whenever I posted Majid Khan's pics (in context of what I think really looks non-South-Asian-to-a-South-Asian-but-is-an-ethnic-South-Asian) but unable to find so.

Censored
07-18-2018, 06:01 AM
Rediff might be right about one thing which is that the hunter gatherers could have been distinct groups. The reality is that an enormous amount of time passed since the first OoA migration which gave rise to so-called "Austroloid" peoples. Look at the Onge for example-they are closest living group to the AASI, yet they don't look anything at all like any South Asians. Matter of fact, low caste South Indians/tribals look a lot more like Australian aborigines(who are much further genetically) than Onge. That shows you how much divergence/isolation can affect looks. There is good reason to think that the various ancient hunter gatherers living in the subcontinent might have been distinct physically if not genetically given the enormous geographic variation and time frame between the arrival of the first AASI and the arrival of the first Iran_N farmers.

I think it's possible, if not likely, that the AASI in say, Tamil Nadu, could have already looked different from their counterparts in Punjab which has a much drier climate, or those living on the hills of the Himalayas by the time the next wave into S. Asia arrived. The Iran_N farmers and Steppe nomads would essentially have been mixing with physically divergent AASI groups, and subsequent natural selection and differences in admixture proportion could be all that's needed to explain the diversity and distinctiveness of all the phenotypes found in the different ethnic groups of South Asia.

What do you think of that?

Edit: scratch the stuff out about OoA. The rest of my point still stands.

midichlorian
07-18-2018, 06:02 AM
I'm sorry to chime in so late, but I am American and my president has taught me how to be a cocky douche. I would like to take credit for being a trail blazer on this thread concept by saying "I have average Indian skin color" a few days ago.... Wewps. ;)

redifflal
07-18-2018, 06:37 AM
Rediff might be right about one thing which is that the hunter gatherers could have been distinct groups. The reality is that an enormous amount of time passed since the first OoA migration which gave rise to so-called "Austroloid" peoples. Look at the Onge for example-they are closest living group to the AASI, yet they don't look anything at all like any South Asians. Matter of fact, low caste South Indians/tribals look a lot more like Australian aborigines(who are much further genetically) than Onge. That shows you how much divergence/isolation can affect looks. There is good reason to think that the various ancient hunter gatherers living in the subcontinent might have been distinct physically if not genetically given the enormous geographic variation and time frame between the arrival of the first AASI and the arrival of the first Iran_N farmers.

I think it's possible, if not likely, that the AASI in say, Tamil Nadu, could have already looked different from their counterparts in Punjab which has a much drier climate, or those living on the hills of the Himalayas by the time the next wave into S. Asia arrived. The Iran_N farmers and Steppe nomads would essentially have been mixing with physically divergent AASI groups, and subsequent natural selection and differences in admixture proportion could be all that's needed to explain the diversity and distinctiveness of all the phenotypes found in the different ethnic groups of South Asia.

What do you think of that?

I will correct just a few assertions. Not sure what is meant by first OOA wave. There is only 1 OOA wave. I swear this stuff is proved a while ago. Also honestly I am not sure of lack of South Asian interest in the OOA/Basal/AMH debates going on in rest of the forum. I feel like if any Eurasian group should have interest in that, it should be us...OOA looks like below
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/a6/f8/eda6f8e4868a401d41603122caaf80f6.jpg
Or it can be something similar like this
http://whywebecamehuman.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Migration-1.jpg
Either way the idea is the same. Since the idea is there is some primordial breakup of the West Eurasian vs East+South Eurasian somewhere in that OOA wave about 40,000 years ago, who then in those arrows by 7000BC are representative of West Eurasian or South Eurasian or East Eurasian? What are people's ideas about these splits? Has anyone actually found evidence of movement of those Zagros 7000BC farmers east into northwestern subcontinent beyond what genetic calculators are show? To me looking at above looks like the West vs East vs South are relevant to the goings on in Central Asian Steppe for example, but it is a continuous population along the entire southern belt of Asia from Arabia to Philippines. What is Iran_N and then the NOT(Iran_N)=AASI is potentially just a silly mask for that continuity that is there on a west-to-east axis across the south.

While above maps might place the OOA movement into a West node and an East+South node and then a subsequent WHG node and separation of East from South nodes and so on, my idea on the various Hunter Gatherer components that may define populations isolated in areas of modern day Punjab or Gujarat or Tamil Nad or Bengal is that they might in of themselves be equivalent as the separation out of the West Eurasian node or South+East Eurasian nodes. Hence I am consistently maintaining that this is not AASI substructure I am proposing but rather OOA substructure (so as you get the West Eurasian node, then you also get say a Gujarat Hunter Gatherer node, a Karnataka Hunter Gatherer node, an Orissa Hunter Gatherer node) as it migrates through subcontinent and out the east. Again AASI requires a NOT-ing on Iran_N or the geographically closest separated out West node available to subcontinent with InPe plus some other hodgepodge assumptions.

I don't think the regional isolations have a direct hand in the caste endogamy obviously (since there wouldn't be caste this far back lol), but they provide the region to region phenotype cline that supersedes caste in the intra-regional level. Finally the cross-regional overlaps in phenotypes get explained by region-to-region migration and/or for example how some castes maintain endogamy overlapping ethnolinguistic boundaries like Sindhi Khatris and Punjabi Khatris for example. Brahmins also tend to move around more, so do those involved with military traditions etc. So this explains the pan-subcontinental look available across the board in the higher castes, whereas very regionally unique looks to those less mobile like if involved with farming. How anyone thinks they will see such complexity (which is true) in a 3-way model of Iran_N, Steppe and !Iran_N(InPe) behooves me.

pnb123
07-18-2018, 06:50 AM
Idk how we really look, but I think people on these videos represent diversity of Nepali Hindus (Brahmins and Chhetris).

Censored
07-18-2018, 06:57 AM
I will correct just a few assertions. Not sure what is meant by first OOA wave. There is only 1 OOA wave. I swear this stuff is proved a while ago. Also honestly I am not sure of lack of South Asian interest in the OOA/Basal/AMH debates going on in rest of the forum. I feel like if any Eurasian group should have interest in that, it should be us...OOA looks like below
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/a6/f8/eda6f8e4868a401d41603122caaf80f6.jpg
Or it can be something similar like this
http://whywebecamehuman.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Migration-1.jpg
Either way the idea is the same. Since the idea is there is some primordial breakup of the West Eurasian vs East+South Eurasian somewhere in that OOA wave about 40,000 years ago, who then in those arrows by 7000BC are representative of West Eurasian or South Eurasian or East Eurasian? What are people's ideas about these splits? Has anyone actually found evidence of movement of those Zagros 7000BC farmers east into northwestern subcontinent beyond what genetic calculators are show? To me looking at above looks like the West vs East vs South are relevant to the goings on in Central Asian Steppe for example, but it is a continuous population along the entire southern belt of Asia from Arabia to Philippines. What is Iran_N and then the NOT(Iran_N)=AASI is potentially just a silly mask for that continuity that is there on a west-to-east axis across the south.

While above maps might place the OOA movement into a West node and an East+South node and then a subsequent WHG node and separation of East from South nodes and so on, my idea on the various Hunter Gatherer components that may define populations isolated in areas of modern day Punjab or Gujarat or Tamil Nad or Bengal is that they might in of themselves be equivalent as the separation out of the West Eurasian node or South+East Eurasian nodes. Hence I am consistently maintaining that this is not AASI substructure I am proposing but rather OOA substructure (so as you get the West Eurasian node, then you also get say a Gujarat Hunter Gatherer node, a Karnataka Hunter Gatherer node, an Orissa Hunter Gatherer node) as it migrates through subcontinent and out the east. Again AASI requires a NOT-ing on Iran_N or the geographically closest separated out West node available to subcontinent with InPe plus some other hodgepodge assumptions.

I don't think the regional isolations have a direct hand in the caste endogamy obviously (since there wouldn't be caste this far back lol), but they provide the region to region phenotype cline that supersedes caste in the intra-regional level. Finally the cross-regional overlaps in phenotypes get explained by region-to-region migration and/or for example how some castes maintain endogamy overlapping ethnolinguistic boundaries like Sindhi Khatris and Punjabi Khatris for example. Brahmins also tend to move around more, so do those involved with military traditions etc. So this explains the pan-subcontinental look available across the board in the higher castes, whereas very regionally unique looks to those less mobile like if involved with farming. How anyone thinks they will see such complexity (which is true) in a 3-way model of Iran_N, Steppe and !Iran_N(InPe) behooves me.

I was always under the impression that there were multiple(recent) migrations out of Africa and the first one went through the southern corridor all the way down to Australia, was the forebearer of all Austroloid peoples from AASI to Australian aboriginals, and was completely genetically distinct from east and west Eurasians which came from a separate migration tens of thousands of years later. I thank you for showing those diagrams.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 07:26 AM
Refer to AASI point above. You score with Gujjus, but you said your community also has migration history from UP if I'm not mistaken. What if with proper aDNA you are 40% Gangetic Hunter Gatherer and 60% Kerala Hunter Gatherer while the Paniya is 95% Kerala Hunter Gatherer?

If you're referring to AASI substructure, then yes there is a chance these could be differentiated with deep divergences, but this would at most reflect 75% of the genome (Paniya) to 20-25% in Punjab upper castes.

I doubt we'd ever find something like a 90% Gangetic hunter gatherer sample when Iron Age Indo-Aryans came so relatively recently in the timeline. If Iran_N was included in your regional definition, maybe its possible but I'm not sure how likely we are to find any ancient sample outside the NW older than 4.2kya with any Iran_N in it as per Moorjani mix dates. See the Balagonda man

To paraphrase, if we are lucky enough to find any samples older than 4.2kya outside the NW, it is likely to be purely AASI and therefore not as relevant to modern pops and your indigenous argument.

4.2k years is relatively recent, and younger than Maykop and Yamnaya

redifflal
07-18-2018, 07:35 AM
I was always under the impression that there were multiple(recent) migrations out of Africa and the first one went through the southern corridor all the way down to Australia, was the forebearer of all Austroloid peoples from AASI to Australian aboriginals, and was completely genetically distinct from east and west Eurasians which came from a separate migration tens of thousands of years later. I thank you for showing those diagrams.

No problem. I would keep those maps of the OOA migration in mind alongside these as non-mercator projections, so we can really have things in their true geographical perspective of distances
http://www.hitxp.com/pics/peters-map.jpg
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2017/03/20/10/gall-peters-projection-sw.jpg

redifflal
07-18-2018, 07:43 AM
If you're referring to AASI substructure, then yes there is a chance these could be differentiated with deep divergences, but this would at most reflect 75% of the genome (Paniya) to 20-25% in Punjab upper castes.

I doubt we'd ever find something like a 90% Gangetic hunter gatherer sample when Iron Age Indo-Aryans came so relatively recently in the timeline. If Iran_N was included in your regional definition, maybe its possible but I'm not sure how likely we are to find any ancient sample outside the NW older than 4.2kya with any Iran_N in it as per Moorjani mix dates. See the Balagonda man

To paraphrase, if we are lucky enough to find any samples older than 4.2kya outside the NW, it is likely to be purely AASI and therefore not as relevant to modern pops and your indigenous argument.

4.2k years is relatively recent, and younger than Maykop and Yamnaya

Bro I am done explaining these various hunter gatherers are NOT AASI substructure but OOA substructure. AASI, pure AASI, what is all this? Give aDNA based definition of AASI or pure AASI. It was never provided. It is based off of Iran_N-InPe, the subtraction in itself plus hodgepodge makes it migrationist. Why subtract? Who said to subtract?

The migrationist models aren't starting from AMT but earlier, that Iran_N farmers came. So more important than finding 4.2kya stuff, it is important to find 9kya aDNA. The Iran_N farmer migration being taken as fact and then defining the InPe as Iran_N+AASI but really AASI=Iran_N-InPe, and then recursively applying this AASI and Steppe on Swat valley and moderns...just buffoonery. And then people wondering if this made up AASI has correlation to the caste-endogamy related phenotypes.

Censored
07-18-2018, 07:57 AM
No problem. I would keep those maps of the OOA migration in mind alongside these as non-mercator projections, so we can really have things in their true geographical perspective of distances
http://www.hitxp.com/pics/peters-map.jpg
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2017/03/20/10/gall-peters-projection-sw.jpg

Incredible. My eyes have truly been opened today.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 08:45 AM
Bro I am done explaining these various hunter gatherers are NOT AASI substructure but OOA substructure. AASI, pure AASI, what is all this? Give aDNA based definition of AASI or pure AASI. It was never provided. It is based off of Iran_N-InPe, the subtraction in itself plus hodgepodge makes it migrationist. Why subtract? Who said to subtract?

The migrationist models aren't starting from AMT but earlier, that Iran_N farmers came. So more important than finding 4.2kya stuff, it is important to find 9kya aDNA. The Iran_N farmer migration being taken as fact and then defining the InPe as Iran_N+AASI but really AASI=Iran_N-InPe, and then recursively applying this AASI and Steppe on Swat valley and moderns...just buffoonery. And then people wondering if this made up AASI has correlation to the caste-endogamy related phenotypes.

AASI levels certainly correlate with phenotype at the group level, that's not even worth arguing.

Call it the South Asian branch of ENA and not AASI if you want, but AASI is still a better label IMO as it is barely found outside South Asia and peaks in Southern India. There might be a link to ANE as well via significant ancient Siberian-like ancestry as part of high-AASI populations today.

Theres plenty in the Narasimhan paper:

- AASI split from other East Eurasians the same time East Asians, Onge and Australian Aboriginals split from each other
- All South Asian ancestry prior to Iran_N arrival was from this one branch formed from a single migration
- AA speakers of Eastern India arrived in the 3rd millenium BC and they mixed with a pop with barely any Iran_N suggesting that Iran_N had not yet spread to Eastern India
- Iran_N expanded to South India after 3000BC

The fitted admixture graph also reveals that the deep
423 ancestry of the indigenous hunter-gather population of India represents an anciently divergent
424 branch of Asian human variation that split off around the same time that East Asian, Onge and
425 Australian aboriginal ancestors separated from each other. This finding is consistent with a
426 model in which essentially all the ancestry of present-day eastern and southern Asians (prior to
427 West Eurasian-related admixture) derives from a single eastward spread, which gave rise in a
428 short span of time to the lineages leading to AASI, East Asians, Onge, and Australians (19).
429
430 Using admixture linkage disequilibrium, we estimate a date of 107 Ī 11 generations ago for the
431 Iranian agriculturalist and AASI-related admixture in the Palliyar, corresponding to a 95%
432 confidence interval of 1700-400 BCE assuming 28 years per generation (28). This date is
433 consistent with a previous estimate of 110 Ī 12 generations ago for the Kalash (39). These
results suggest that the ASI and ANI were both largely unformed at the beginning of the 2nd 434
435 millennium BCE, and imply that the ASI may have formed in the course of the spread of West
436 Asian domesticates into peninsular India beginning around 3000 BCE (where they were
437 combined with local domesticates to form the basis of the early agriculturalist economy of South
438 India (40)), or alternatively in association with eastward spread of material culture from the
439 Indus Valley after the IVC declined (41). Further evidence for a Bronze Age formation of the
440 ASI comes from our analysis of Austroasiatic-speaking groups in India such as Juang, who have
441 a higher ratio of AASI-to-Iranian agriculturalist-related ancestry than the ASI (Fig. 3,
442 Supplementary Materials). Austroasiatic speakers likely descend from populations that arrived
in South Asia in the 3 443 rd millennium BCE (based on hill cultivation systems associated with the
444 spread of Austroasiatic languages (20)), and our genetic results show that when Austroasiatic
445 speakers arrived they mixed with groups with elevated ratios of AASI- to Iranian-agriculturalist-
446 related ancestry than are found in the ASI, showing that the ASI had not yet overspread
447 peninsular India.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 08:49 AM
duplicate post

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 09:07 AM
Incorrect! Please be honest regarding these assertions. This model is not a 3-way model but rather a 2ish-way as AASI is ghost and defined precisely as (Indus_Periphery MINUS Iran_N). So what exactly is being fitted? It is equivalent to a model with chimpanzee and Neanderthal and a ghost population described as the non-chimpanzee....

And who said there is some cross-Punjabi look? Thousands of years of endogamy of different groups inside a region will mean there is no super-cross-Punjabi look. BUT you cannot claim that a Punjabi SC and Bengali SC are somehow related (beyond OOA continuity) based on how some calculator lacking any of the necessary aDNA and still based off of proper West-Eurasian-found aDNA. You are somehow getting triggered off of some garbage online fights you had with Pashtuns in regards to "we be diverse looking". You need to train your guns in the opposite direction here, as in not towards a group NW of you but far much further SE of you. So come at me correctly. I have let know both MDL and you that you guys stand out like a sore thumb among average Bengalis due to your overall phenotype. Of course neither of you are Punjabi SC, but I wanted to clarify the point anyway. A Punjabi SC stands out just as much if not more amongst Bengali SC's. It is up to you to prove that Punjabi SC and Bengali SC are actually related beyond OOA continuity. And I have a legitimate scientifically based objection towards using a calculator that is primarily using aDNA from Zagros mountains in 7000BC, aDNA from Bronze Age Steppe and doing a subtraction on individuals deemed Indus Periphery from the Zagros folks to say that is AASI.

Be honest? Come on man. We do have at least a decent idea that AASI represents the original hunter gatherers of South Asia while Indus Periphery isn't an actual ancestral population. It represents the mixed Iran N + West Siberian N + AASI ancestry of the SIS BA samples.

In addition, we know that the majority of AASI (ghost or not) the paper calculated for modern samples isn't obtained from Indus Periphery - Iran N. If you go back to the original paper, VM Narasimhan and the Reich team actually proxied the majority of AASI ancestry for South Asians using the Onge. The supplementary spreadsheet shows this. The AASI in Indus Periphery is just the leftover AASI ancestry they couldn't pull out because the lack of a pure enough AASI population to do so (Swat samples being too mixed).

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581 ‎

Since nMonte isn't using an actual Indus Periphery component but rather the SIS BA, Gonur, BMAC, etc. samples, what is being fitted is how much modern South Asians fit to these ancients. In other words, how much SIS BA3, Sintashta, Parkhai, West Siberian, N, etc. our autosomal ancestry is drawn to. Then, using the Iran N, AASI and Steppe breakdown provided for these ancients (see modeling from paper below), we can estimate how much Iran N, AASI and Steppe us moderns score. Obviously, the lower the distance, the better the fit while taking into account overfitting if some of the populations being used are unrealistic.

24714
24713

Well, to me, your point about Punjabi dalits or some SC/ST or SC/ST looking vastly different from Bangladeshi SC/ST and I'm presuming also South Indian mid-castes would suggest there is some type of common "Punjabi" look that spans the genetic cline of dalits to biradaris. Otherwise, how could both an average Jatt Sikh, Hindu Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Dalit all look "Punjabi?" Also, I'm not saying Punjabi SC And Bengali SC are historically related. What I am suggesting is they are at least somewhat autosomally similar (using a variety of admixture calcs or genetic modeling such as nMonte) and because of that similarity, there may be some phenotype overlap. I don't think that's a crazy jump in logic since there are definitely South Asians of different ethnic origins that can pass throughout the subcontinent from Punjab to Bangladesh to Gujarat and Tamil Nadu. Now, of course there are distinct regional phenotypes that are more common in certain areas but to me that is based on the cline of autosomal ancestry in South Asia.

Also, I've never had "garbage online fights" with Pashtuns regarding Punjabi phenotype. Nor have I ever been on the forum MDL referred to and the only proper interaction I've had with Pashtuns has been anthrogenica regarding autosomal DNA and haplogroups (I've had some minor genetic discussion with some Afghans on scape before). Anyways, I've been on anthro forums for awhile (and browsed quite a few) but it's a bit presumptuous to suggest I've actually had written interactions about us being "diverse looking." My observations are based on what I've read and the people I've come across in my personal life. In fact, anthroforums wise, it's actually other South Asians who have made more condescending posts about how my own ethnic group is supposed to "look." That just happens to rub me the wrong way. It's pretty infuriating to have others suggest you or your family aren't typical. In the end, any of my heated discussions were with my fellow South Asians.

If you say a Punjabi SC stands out among Bengali SC, that's fine. I'm not interested in going any further into deep pseudoscience phenotype discussions. Also, what do you want me to prove exactly regarding the relation between Punjabi SC And Bengali SC? That they can be modeled with tights fits using the same exact AASI related South Asian hunter gatherer population (assuming we get actual almost pure AASI ancient samples)? I'm presuming you desire this because you think the potential similar fits in nMonte with SIS BA3 and other ancients aren't accurate enough and based on a migration model you think is false or flawed (not just Steppe but Iran N from the Zagros too)?

Because, I'm not sure your "scientific based objection" would hold up against Narasimhan and the Reich lab? What about haplogroup data? For example, my y-DNA L1a2 and bmoney's L1a1 have had the oldest L1 sample found not too far from the Zagros in the Caucasus. The BMAC samples were also full of L1a, J2, etc. and even some common "West Asian" mt-DNA including my own. To me, it's not exactly a stretch to suggest the Neolithic famers of South Asia migrated from around these areas. That kind of data is also the missing piece in potential Steppe migrations (R1a1a-L657 right?). Not just the lack of Steppe or minor Steppe in the Swat samples.

Again, the AASI modeling for moderns in the Narasimhan paper is based primairly on Onge. I'd presume the AASI estimates for SIS BA3, SIS BA2, Gonur, etc. are as well. Because, it's been 9 years since the original Reich paper and Onge are still the closest living or ancient population we have to proxy AASI. Personally, I think if geneticists could model Paniya very accurately, a subtraction model with them would work better than just straight up using Onge since they're too genetically diverged from the original AASI population of South Asia.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 09:40 AM
AASI levels certainly correlate with phenotype at the group level, that's not even worth arguing.

Call it the South Asian branch of ENA and not AASI if you want, but AASI is still a better label IMO as it is barely found outside South Asia and peaks in Southern India. There might be a link to ANE as well via significant ancient Siberian-like ancestry as part of high-AASI populations today.

Theres plenty in the Narasimhan paper:

- AASI split from other East Eurasians the same time East Asians, Onge and Australian Aboriginals split from each other
Again who is AASI? If I ask you who is Iran Neolithic you have remains from Zagros in 7000bc. If I ask you Indus periphery, you have some folks that look like carrying Indian ancestry, but at least you have some remains to say here be InPe. But who is AASI?



- All South Asian ancestry prior to Iran_N arrival was from this one branch formed from a single migration

Who said Iran_N actually every arrived? Yes there is a single migration. It is called OOA. The entire south Asia is consisting of a continuity belt of the OOA that at the upper level is continuous to the East and West Eurasian nodes. You can say Iran_N is descendant of easternmost West Eurasian. But if considering the split of OOA, then it isn't a West and then East+Onge+AASI+Australian. It would be more like OOA splits into Basal and rest of OOA somewhere in Arabia. Then somewhere by Iran coast there is a northbound break, said group is onset of West Eurasian group. The rest of crew continuing along coastline enter Indian subcontinent. Just like how Basal split off and West split off, in subcontinent you should have tons of viable splits. This is upstream of the split of Onge+ East Asian+ Australian. These are not AASI substructure splits as no such thing as AASI. The group that continues on into Southeast Asia has the relevant splitting to east Asians and native Americans and Onge and Australians etc. Meanwhile in subcontinent you have highly divergent branches of OOA in of itself spread across vast distances so able to isolate. So main source of phenotype difference between a Punjabi SC and Tamil SC is attributable to fact that former is from Punjab Hunter Gatherers and latter from Tamil Nadu Hunter Gatherers, two populationad differentiated directly under OOA for all practical purposes. If I were to bullet out this tree, it would be
OOA children branches:
1) Basal Eurasian
2) West Eurasian
3) Sindh Hunter Gatherers
4) Kashmir Hunter Gatherers
5) Kerala Hunter Gatherers
6) Orissa Hunter Gatherers
7) Gangetic Hunter Gatherers
8) Onge
9) East Eurasian

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 09:49 AM
I thought you were joking at first with these PHG or BHG.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-18-2018, 09:53 AM
Ah! yeah I agree,he looks Kashmiri to me as well than punjabi, esp. the nose?
I wrote about a different guy, I think he was wearing a black hoodie.

Never said he looks chechan, it was toward rediff post about kashmiri dude having chechan.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 10:11 AM
They seriously used a modern population Onge to still be used into their definition of a supposed real ancestral component for subcontinent regarding which they make vast sweeping proclamations? Regardless of if they use Onge or Paniya to refine their AASI definition, fact that a modern population is being used just weakens the position even more and lends itself to looking for a migrationist model from the onset.

And yes I mentioned it earlier that the movement from Zagros is false. It is just OOA continuity which makes it look like Indus periphery is Iran_N plus something when Indus periphery is just Indus periphery. Is there real iran_n in subcontinent? Yea the Parsees and some Shia families have it.

Regarding the Bengali SC as opposed to Punjabi SC or any communities of subcontinent at the end of the day I want real meaningful models of population history and structure. It will also help understand how exactly which phenotypes are getting pooled into which endogamous groups. Because yes different phenotype core ranges define endogamous groups, why would they not? But when groups that supposedly overlap genetically have very distinct phenotype ranges from each other, something is jacked up about said model that it cannot identify what a layperson on street could tell you from looking at a person. That means more so than not that there is a deeply diverged region specific ancestry. The Indian subcontinent is huge. From Tamil Nadu a person in Punjab is half the distance to Kazakhstan, why there would not be a core regional ancestral stock? You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always wished to prove a distance from, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?
Anyway my mode of thinking still distinguishes a Punjabi biradari from a Punjabi SC at the end of the day. Biradari might be 60% PHG while Punjab SC is over 90% PHG. Rest of biradari would be steppe and Iran_N and maybe as an upper caste than the SC you might have also assimilated other diverged south Asian ancestral clusters so biradari might show Gangetic hunter gatherer or Kashmiri etc. What it would also resolve is the false equivalence of the Punjabi SC with a Bengali SC or Andhra SC. I have maintained that each region's respective SC is likely the most indigenous to said region.
I'm not looking for Indian place names to components. Yes perhaps a 9000 B.C. Punjab hunter gatherer would plot at 80% Iran_N and 20% Onge while a Tamil hunter gatherer from 9000 BC is some other percentage breakdown. Btw is that something that is done or makes sense doing backwards in time? Because a 9000 BC based aDNA cluster find would predate the 7000bc Iran_N folks. I guess everything gets done seeing as Onge is used to define AASI which then went into studying and classifying the Swat valley samples.

But either way at such a point it will really stop making sense to continue using Iran_N or AASI as you have older aDNA components from subcontinent. It will still make sense to use Iran_N to capture excess that has come in the historical times (most of it will or should get eaten along with AASI into these HG categories with Indian region names).

If a remain from anywhere in particular NW part shows up pre 7000bc and is very AASI like, as in unable to capture the latent West Eurasian aspect like how Iran_N is supposed to do for now, then I will consider my proposition as having been invalidated.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 10:21 AM
I thought you were joking at first with these PHG or BHG.

Nope, I've been alluding to this kind of stuff for a while. I went along with the ANI ASI constructs before the Narasimhan paper. After that paper and way it keeps stretching into migrationist models I realized this stuff is not going to stop. ASI will shift to AASI. Basically a fraction of Indian subcontinent area and historical numbers gets to have a population history structures explained by
1) WHG
2) EHG
3) SHG
4) CHG
5) ANE
6) Anatolia N
7) Levant N
8) Steppe emba
9) Steppe mlba
And so on and so on. But suggesting that the OOA population had real components intermediate from West and East Eurasians in form of various isolated hunter gatherer groups over distances within the subcontinent is a laughable proposition?

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 10:22 AM
Yes and no. No regarding region-specific "AASI". AASI is IP-Iran_N.

The paper models AASI using the Onge. IP-Iran_N is the leftover AASI not captured by Onge.



Follow me down this hypothetical path. What if you had aDNA from 9000BC from Punjab region and Bengal region that we will label PHG and BHG respectively. Let us say in the Iran_N/Steppe/AASI model a Punjabi SC scored 35% AASI, 55% Iran_N and 10% Steppe. Likewise a Bengali SC scored 50% AASI, 45% Iran_N and 5% Steppe. So far generally agreeable on such numbers? Now let us model with PHG and BHG added to the mix and we take AASI out, leave Iran_N and Steppe in still, so now we have a 4-way model. My assertion is that Punjabi SC will be 90% PHG, 7% Iran_N, 3% Steppe and 0% BHG. And on other hand, the Bengali SC will be 0% PHG, 4% Iran_N, 1% Steppe and 95% BHG. If I were to tabulate this out, it would look like following. I have chosen the old-model numbers with what I think is likely the case as of now, but what I want to be noted is how and what components get "eaten" into the nodes in the new hypothetical model... I do follow your model. I just disagree with it until we have data showing that some supposed PHG and BHG existed and were notably distinct, I don't see why we should even consider such a hypothetical. However, I'm open to it. I wrote a paper back in university for my anthropology course arguing that there might have been somewhat diverged ASI populations in South Asia (back when I associated ASI with what we now refer to as AASI) and that we just needed pure ancient AASI data to verify it.

I would ask: How do we even know what kind of AASI populations lived back then or what areas in South Asia were populated and others sparsely so? Were these hypothetical populations even that diverged or distinct from one another to separate into PHG or BHG? It's a lot of conjecture. Those AASI differences are also too significant for populations that supposedly cluster together. Maybe poi can model a Bengali SC and one of the most "AASI" shifted PJL using nMonte? That would give a clearer picture.



More like it proves I didn't cherrypick.

Doesn't that prove my point though? If you don't cherrypick, there is overlap between a dalit/ST/SC Punjabi and Bangladeshi SC? Anyways, I'm finished with the phenotype discussion.




They are defined from the Mesolithic aDNA found in modern-day area known as Scandinavia. Anyway, what I don't understand is how the population history of a historically 1/10th numbers-wise populated Europe or even all of Western Eurasia can have so many differentiated ancient components to explain it like WHG, SHG, EHG, CHG, Steppe_EMBA, Steppe_MLBA, Iran_N, Anatolia_N, Basal Eurasian, Natufian_N, Levant_N, ANE, etc etc while folks can sit there and say that Indian population can be explained by Iran_N, Steppe and a ghost AASI? And you really asked if PHG or BHG or KHG are AASI regional variants?

A lot of it has to do with how much more difficulty geneticists have in collecting ancient DNA from South Asia whether it is due to lack of preservation due to weather or politically motivated resistance from the Indian government. The more ancient DNA we have, the more types of modeling we can have. Also, a lot of those ancient components overlap in similarity. They just some differentiation in exact breakdowns. Correct me if I'm wrong but EHG is like WHG + West Siberian N/ANE? Steppe_EMBA and Steppe_MLBA have some similarity but are based on different ancients. Basal Eurasian is a parent "West Eurasian" component that a lot of these ancient components are derived from? ANE is applicable to South Asia too. The recent Narasimhan paper used the term West Siberian N instead? Also, I believe at one point some genetics bloggers were modeling South Asians with CHG rather than Iran N? Anyways, for South Asia, you can model individuals using components like WHG/EHG, or Steppe_MLBA/Steppe_EMBA, Iran N, ANE, Anatolia_N. In fact, some GEDMatch calculators have in the past (WHG, EHG, CHG, Iran_N, Anatolia_N, ANE, etc.) . It's just with nMonte, the best fits are with Steppe_MLBA, Sintashta, Saka, West Siberian N, Iran_N based pops (SIS BA, Parkhai, etc.) while AASI is extrapolated from primarily SIS BA 3 and to a lesser extent SIS BA2 with Onge occasionally accounting for extra AASI.



Can't unwrap from the constructed West-Eurasian-non-West-Eurasian model it seems like. What is distance from Punjab to tip of Sri Lanka? It is equal to distance from Punjab to Kazakhstan. Mercator map projections are doing a number on us it seems. We are talking prior to onset of agriculture and civilization, it isn't like India or subcontinent is some magical nation that exists always into paleolithic eternity. What is "regional" (as opposed to continental? national? what?) about a PHG/BHG/KHG/etc construct? Distances are considerable. Why there cannot be regionally isolated independent hunter gatherer populations across subcontinent? Also I never claimed that the regional isolation remains into modern populations. Matter of fact I made it a point to state that upper caste folks are likely to be bridges of the various isolated populations. Just like for Europeans nobody said that modern day Norwegians are 100% SHG and modern day Britons are 100% WHG and modern day Russians are 100% ANE. Nope, big mashup going on everywhere and there can always be groups stronger in some ancient component on the other side geographically or not exactly contiguous from its direction of spread. So why a modern day TamBrahm cannot be explained as 75% Gangetic Hunter Gatherer 20% Tamil Hunter Gatherer 5% Steppe or something?

What do you want exactly? Do you just want ancient names specific to South Asia and not based on migration-related pops such as Iran_N and Steppe? What would Gangetic Hunter Gatherer entail? A Mix of Iran N and AASI? Just predominately Iran N while Tamil Hunter Gatherer is close to 100% AASI? Or do you want ancient South Asian modeling that separates South Asia entirely from the rest of Eurasia? So, we can see where a Jatt Sikh or Punjabi Khatri stands in comparison to a SC or dalit Punjabi based on some hypothetical PHG population with Iran_N, Steppe, etc. making the difference?

Because, I don't think South Asians are some special distinct group with ancestry entirely separate from the rest of Eurasia. It's really only AASI that makes us distinct and even that still falls on the ENA branch with East Eurasia.



I am asking that you, and by you, I mean a generic you and I and all of us, that why would you feel that wham open and shut case all work that needed to be done is done when we are still haggling around with garbage 2.5-way models? Also why should I be content in some model with nodes so far from home and not only that even the little bit of aDNA found (which in my opinion is very very far removed for the core population history of Bengalis and by that I am referring to the Bengali SCs) is still used as a derived population of something outside and that is used to explain what may have been the characteristic of the entire massive region inside?

Personally, with the lack of focus on South Asian genetics in the grand scheme of global genetic research, I'm happy we even have the current models and will patiently wait for revised models to come out if further relevant DNA is discovered. The current models certainly aren't garbage to me.

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 10:32 AM
And so on and so on. But suggesting that the OOA population had real components intermediate from West and East Eurasians in form of various isolated hunter gatherer groups over distances within the subcontinent is a laughable proposition.

Do you really think South Asians are that distinct and separate from the rest of Eurasia? To the point where we shouldn't be modeled using ancients that are perfectly fine for the rest of West Eurasia, Central Eurasia and East Eurasia? This anti-migration viewpoint makes no sense to me because I see Steppe ancestry and ANE ancestry in Europe as migrationist as well with both coming from Central Eurasia. Europeans just have a much heavier dosage of it (Steppe). ANE is highest in Amerindians, Siberians and Central Asians but is found throughout West Eurasia (including Europe) and South Eurasia as well.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 10:39 AM
They seriously used a modern population Onge to still be used into their definition of a supposed real ancestral component for subcontinent regarding which they make vast sweeping proclamations? Regardless of if they use Onge or Paniya to refine their AASI definition, fact that a modern population is being used just weakens the position even more and lends itself to looking for a migrationist model from the onset.

And yes I mentioned it earlier that the movement from Zagros is false. It is just OOA continuity which makes it look like Indus periphery is Iran_N plus something when Indus periphery is just Indus periphery. Is there real iran_n in subcontinent? Yea the Parsees and some Shia families have it.

Regarding the Bengali SC as opposed to Punjabi SC or any communities of subcontinent at the end of the day I want real meaningful models of population history and structure. It will also help understand how exactly which phenotypes are getting pooled into which endogamous groups. Because yes different phenotype core ranges define endogamous groups, why would they not? But when groups that supposedly overlap genetically have very distinct phenotype ranges from each other, something is jacked up about said model that it cannot identify what a layperson on street could tell you from looking at a person. That means more so than not that there is a deeply diverged region specific ancestry. The Indian subcontinent is huge. From Tamil Nadu a person in Punjab is half the distance to Kazakhstan, why there would not be a core regional ancestral stock? You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?

I just posted the Narasimhan quote showing that when the AA people arrived, they mixed with an AASI population with barely any Iran_N ancestry, with the only conclusion being that Iran_N was not present or established in Eastern India or Southern India at that time and only AASI was. The AA migration was relatively recent too at 5kya making the admixture event between Iran_N and AASI (outside NW South Asia) later than the formation of the Maikop culture

Iran_N is on a different branch of humanity and originated in the Zagros, here is the latest diagram from Lazaridis:

24715

I don't know why youre struggling to deal with the fact that AASI is a distinct unit and that studying AASI diversity does not answer the question you ask instead of concepts like Punjab Hunter-Gatherer with no basis in genetics and based on your impression of phenotypes

Juang (an Austroasiatic speaking group in India with low West Eurasian-relatedness),
418 and show that it fits when the ASI have ~27% Iranian agriculturalist-related ancestry and the
419 Juang also harbor ancestry from an AASI population without Iranian admixture (Fig. 3). This
420 model is also notable in showing that early Iranian agriculturalists fit without AASI admixture,

Sapporo
07-18-2018, 10:46 AM
You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?

Dude, this is a bit much? A group I have traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon? I was born and raised in the West. I didn't even know what a Punjabi SC or Punjabi ST was until I researched anthropology, history and genetics in my early 20's. Many South Asians here aren't really that familiar with the massive diversity of South Asia or intricacies of inter-caste or tribal differences. At one point, I actually even thought Jatt Sikhs were "high caste" even though they're actually more of an avarna tribe or shudras. They just happen to be politically and socially dominant in Indian Punjab.

To you they may not look similar (as you can apparently pick up very region specific differences) but in the grand scheme of 1 billion+ South Asians, it's probably not a stretch to suggest they're similar. Regardless, phenotype discussion is still pseudoscience. There is no intricate science to it (it's based on stuff like physical observations and measurements of early 20th century anthropologists) and modern individuals of ancestrally diverged populations such as South Asians will show tons of diversity, which is because it is down to the small percentage of our genome that determines phenotype.

Like bmoney noted, there is probably some correlation with autosomal ancestry and phenotype on a group level but certainly not on an individual level.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 11:08 AM
Do you really think South Asians are that distinct and separate from the rest of Eurasia? To the point where we shouldn't be modeled using ancients that are perfectly fine for the rest of West Eurasia, Central Eurasia and East Eurasia? This anti-migration viewpoint makes no sense to me because I see Steppe ancestry and ANE ancestry in Europe as migrationist as well with both coming from Central Eurasia. Europeans just have a much heavier dosage of it (Steppe). ANE is highest in Amerindians, Siberians, Central Asians but is found throughout West Eurasia (including Europe) and South Eurasia as well.

Yes I think south Asians are that distinct from Eurasians but not just that but I think they are very distinct from each other first. I see south Asia as the Eurasian version of Africa. I provided couple of maps of OOA that kind of show this. Europeans story can indeed be explained better by the migrationist model. Indian subcontinent model can be via internal distinctions dormant from the OOA stage.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 11:22 AM
Yes I think south Asians are that distinct from Eurasians but not just that but I think they are very distinct from each other first. I see south Asia as the Eurasian version of Africa. I provided couple of maps of OOA that kind of show this. Europeans story can indeed be explained better by the migrationist model. Indian subcontinent model can be via internal distinctions dormant from the OOA stage.

What if I told you South Asia one of the most successful racial melting pots on the planet, because thats what it looks like genetically.

Your theory about OOA only applies to AASI and the ENA branch that first entered the subcontinent

redifflal
07-18-2018, 11:25 AM
Dude, this is a bit much? A group I have traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon? I was born and raised in the West. I didn't even know what a Punjabi SC or Punjabi ST was until I researched anthropology, history and genetics in my early 20's. Many South Asians here aren't really that familiar with the massive diversity of South Asia or intricacies of inter-caste or tribal differences. At one point, I actually even thought Jatt Sikhs were "high caste" even though they're actually more of an avarna tribe or shudras. They just happen to be politically and socially dominant in Indian Punjab.

To you they may not look similar (as you can apparently pick up very region specific differences) but in the grand scheme of 1 billion+ South Asians, it's probably not a stretch to suggest they're similar. Regardless, phenotype discussion is still pseudoscience. There is no intricate science to it (it's based on stuff like physical observations and measurements of early 20th century anthropologists) and modern individuals of ancestrally diverged populations such as South Asians will show tons of diversity, which is because it is down to the small percentage of our genome that determines phenotype.

Like bmoney noted, there is probably some correlation with autosomal ancestry and phenotype on a group level but certainly not on an individual level.

I had edited out the looking down part within 2 minutes of posting it.

I can pick out many jaatis because they are each an endogamous group. My strength is among Bengalis and eastern subcontinent ethnicities of course. Also at the end of the day a Punjabi Chamar and a Punjabi biradari have only caste endogamy or a social practice keeping them from mixing, but they do live in front of each other whereas a Tamil lives as far away as Kazakhstan.

bmoney
07-18-2018, 11:27 AM
I had edited out the looking down part within 2 minutes of posting it.

I can pick out many jaatis because they are each an endogamous group. My strength is among Bengalis and eastern subcontinent ethnicities of course. Also at the end of the day a Punjabi Chamar and a Punjabi biradari have only caste endogamy or a social practice keeping them from mixing, but they do live in front of each other whereas a Tamil lives as far away as Kazakhstan.

Why are Tamils being pulled into this lol, they don't claim Punjabi ancestry

redifflal
07-18-2018, 11:31 AM
What if I told you South Asia one of the most successful racial melting pots on the planet, because thats what it looks like genetically.

Your theory about OOA only applies to AASI and the ENA branch that first entered the subcontinent

This will only make sense if West Eurasian is considered already split off before OOA makes it to India. So is OOA as far as the subcontinent goes an entry of ENA from the west along Arabian Sea coast? If this is the line I can get on board with AASI being the first split off of ENA that stays behind in India while rest of ENA makes its way into Southeast Asia. Hence why I posted them OOA maps and asked if someone can caption them as to what ancestry cluster one should expect with which arrow.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 11:38 AM
Why are Tamils being pulled into this lol, they don't claim Punjabi ancestry

Lol just bringing them in in case a calculator shows a Punjabi SC has a similar breakdown in autosomal components of said calculator as a Tamil SC.

pegasus
07-18-2018, 11:48 AM
They seriously used a modern population Onge to still be used into their definition of a supposed real ancestral component for subcontinent regarding which they make vast sweeping proclamations? Regardless of if they use Onge or Paniya to refine their AASI definition, fact that a modern population is being used just weakens the position even more and lends itself to looking for a migrationist model from the onset.

And yes I mentioned it earlier that the movement from Zagros is false. It is just OOA continuity which makes it look like Indus periphery is Iran_N plus something when Indus periphery is just Indus periphery. Is there real iran_n in subcontinent? Yea the Parsees and some Shia families have it.

Regarding the Bengali SC as opposed to Punjabi SC or any communities of subcontinent at the end of the day I want real meaningful models of population history and structure. It will also help understand how exactly which phenotypes are getting pooled into which endogamous groups. Because yes different phenotype core ranges define endogamous groups, why would they not? But when groups that supposedly overlap genetically have very distinct phenotype ranges from each other, something is jacked up about said model that it cannot identify what a layperson on street could tell you from looking at a person. That means more so than not that there is a deeply diverged region specific ancestry. The Indian subcontinent is huge. From Tamil Nadu a person in Punjab is half the distance to Kazakhstan, why there would not be a core regional ancestral stock? You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always wished to prove a distance from, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?
Anyway my mode of thinking still distinguishes a Punjabi biradari from a Punjabi SC at the end of the day. Biradari might be 60% PHG while Punjab SC is over 90% PHG. Rest of biradari would be steppe and Iran_N and maybe as an upper caste than the SC you might have also assimilated other diverged south Asian ancestral clusters so biradari might show Gangetic hunter gatherer or Kashmiri etc. What it would also resolve is the false equivalence of the Punjabi SC with a Bengali SC or Andhra SC. I have maintained that each region's respective SC is likely the most indigenous to said region.
I'm not looking for Indian place names to components. Yes perhaps a 9000 B.C. Punjab hunter gatherer would plot at 80% Iran_N and 20% Onge while a Tamil hunter gatherer from 9000 BC is some other percentage breakdown. Btw is that something that is done or makes sense doing backwards in time? Because a 9000 BC based aDNA cluster find would predate the 7000bc Iran_N folks. I guess everything gets done seeing as Onge is used to define AASI which then went into studying and classifying the Swat valley samples.

But either way at such a point it will really stop making sense to continue using Iran_N or AASI as you have older aDNA components from subcontinent. It will still make sense to use Iran_N to capture excess that has come in the historical times (most of it will or should get eaten along with AASI into these HG categories with Indian region names).

If a remain from anywhere in particular NW part shows up pre 7000bc and is very AASI like, as in unable to capture the latent West Eurasian aspect like how Iran_N is supposed to do for now, then I will consider my proposition as having been invalidated.

Are you serious? I am not completely familiar with India proper but most definitely NW South Asia is mainly derived from Neolithic Iranians and groups related to them, even those Swat Indo Aryan samples from 3Kya have substantial BMAC related ancestry which in itself has a good chunk of ancestry from Copper Age Iran. Looking at early farming cultures in the Indus, they clearly are descended from groups moving in from SE Iran and/or via Helmand River Basin, we know this because the pottery is identical to those found at Ali Kosh on the Iran/Iraq border , as well as the way they bury their dead , in other words Neolithic Iran and Neolithic South Asia are very similar. As for AASI , I am sure it will have a complex breakdown because it most definitely has ANE or ANE like among other things.

Unlike Europe where the local hunter gatherer population were completely displaced a la Cheddar Man, there are plenty of groups in India which have 50%+ of their ancestry from local hunter gatherers.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 12:08 PM
My whole premise so far has been regarding OOA continuity and deep rooted local branches of the OOA to the point where the remnant OOA population in a particular region of subcontinent is as diverged from each other and from West Eurasian and ENA as West and ENA are from each other.

But bmoney are you suggesting something like following attached? Excuse the chicken scratch. I have labeled OOA and WE is West Eurasians which diverts off to the west before rest of OOA makes it to India. So essentially what enters India from OOA is ENA? And then as ENA goes on through, the branch of ENA that doesn't go on to Southeast Asia but rather remains in the Indian subcontinent is AASI?

In that case I will backtrack and accept AASI as a legit population that had lived in the past and isn't something to get calculators to work lol. It comes down really for me as to whether the West and ENA nodes have differentiated yet or not by the time the OOA enters India...

bmoney
07-18-2018, 12:12 PM
Lol just bringing them in in case a calculator shows a Punjabi SC has a similar breakdown in autosomal components of said calculator as a Tamil SC.

Well a Tamil Brahmin would cluster closer to a Biradari Punjabi than the AASI-shifted PJL samples (these are only a subset of the broader PJL group).

I absolutely believe that looking at Varun and other samples. Phenotypically as well, someone like Narasimhan himself would resemble a caste Punjabi more than a Punjabi Mussali in some cases (not all)

This is both due to shared ancient ancestry and more recent North Indian ancestry for Tam Brams

bmoney
07-18-2018, 12:21 PM
My whole premise so far has been regarding OOA continuity and deep rooted local branches of the OOA to the point where the remnant OOA population in a particular region of subcontinent is as diverged from each other and from West Eurasian and ENA as West and ENA are from each other.

But bmoney are you suggesting something like following attached? Excuse the chicken scratch. I have labeled OOA and WE is West Eurasians which diverts off to the west before rest of OOA makes it to India. So essentially what enters India from OOA is ENA? And then as ENA goes on through, the branch of ENA that doesn't go on to Southeast Asia but rather remains in the Indian subcontinent is AASI?

In that case I will backtrack and accept AASI as a legit population that had lived in the past and isn't something to get calculators to work lol. It comes down really for me as to whether the West and ENA nodes have differentiated yet or not by the time the OOA enters India...

I prefer this map due to its recency. AASI would have been a split off the branch that went onto to SE Asia from South Asia (AASI was out of the scope of the study) though I'm not sure of the timings of the split

24717

Razib has also proposed some clades of AASI migrating back from SE Asia which is not impossible. He associates certain mtdna M lineages with this back-migration:

t the Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution conference in Japan there is a presentation which reports evidence for gene flow from Pleistocene Southeast Asians into South Asia. I have long suggested this was possible for several reasons.

During the Last Glacial Maximum ~20,000 years ago Southeast Asia would have been a relatively protected and well-watered region in comparison to South Asia. My understanding is that moist savanna has higher population densities of hunter-gatherers than dry scrubland. Southeast Asia would have had a great deal of the former, and almost none of the latter (the LGM was drier, and the rainforest zone in Southeast Asia would have been smaller, and Sundaland was probably mostly savanna). The Thar desert zone would have been much more expansive, pushing south and east. The summer monsoons were far weaker.

All this indicates Southeast Asia would have had larger populations than South Asia during this period. And large populations tend to impact smaller populations genetically.

Additionally, looking closely at haplogroup M, which is highly diverse in South Asia, some of them look to be intrusive and related to branches in Southeast Asia. Though I do believe some of the M branches in South Asia are very old and probably native, others may have been brought by Southeast Asian people related to the Hoabinhian culture (which was mostly absorbed by rice farmers from the north during the Holocene).

During the Pleistocene Southeast Asia and Southern Asia were probably part of the same biogeographic zone, just as they are today. The ancestors and relatives of the Negrito peoples of Southeast Asia probably displayed a continuity from South Asia down toward Oceania. The preponderant gene flow at some points from the east to the was probably just a function of population size and climate.

redifflal
07-18-2018, 12:24 PM
Duplicate

redifflal
07-18-2018, 12:27 PM
I prefer this map due to its recency. AASI would have been a split off the branch that went off to SE ASIA (AASI was out of the scope of the study) though I'm not sure of the timings of the split

24717

Razib has also proposed some clades of AASI migrating back from SE Asia which is not impossible. He associates certain mtdna M lineages with this back-migration

Any ideas on the other end while it enters Indian subcontinent what's happening?

anthroin
07-18-2018, 12:59 PM
Hello all,

Could you tell, if you are knowledgeable, the academic consensus if any exists, on the geographical location of the West Eurasian-East Eurasian split during the OOA migration? Is it considered to have happened somewhere west of the Hindu Kush mountains thus meaning the first peoples of South Asia were distinctly East Eurasian? Or are there other perspectives in this also?

I realise as I'm typing that redifflal above asks the exact same question but I have typed a lot and have been myself very curious about this- whether the Iran_N/Iran_N-like ancestry the modern subcontinent people sourced from the northwest region lying within the Indian subcontinent roughly between the Hindu Kush mountains and the Thar desert dates from
1. Neolithic migrations from (eastern?) Iran
2. Mesolithic and LGM presence in the northwest but as an ultimate result of hunter gatherer movements from various West Asian regions during/prior to LGM, due to the seemingly significantly different biomes in the two subcontinental regions, the first northwest of Thar and the second east and southeast of Thar in the LGM
3. A result of a differentiation in the northwestern regions dating to the first OOA migration itself

khanabadoshi
07-18-2018, 04:23 PM
24711
Some random PTI thing in my Paternal village. Again by no means am I saying there are no dark skinned Punjabis, but as MLD has said other groups have this stereotypical look of us which is by no means a true reflection of the diversity of our phenotypes.


There is Khanabadoshi in the background with a mustache though.


Nah Khana has way more dense glorious beard.


LOL this is me at a PTI event...


https://i.gyazo.com/6bd50033488202d38b9919ceea377fd4.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/a2eb9549cf82dadcdff098841b08f480.jpg

passion
07-18-2018, 04:39 PM
some more videos from across Pakistan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd0QytkCXso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqJGYVGHF3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gS9jIfsLws
from swat


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8RHHRROqlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYPoAaqy2E

surbakhunWeesste
07-18-2018, 04:46 PM
Be honest? Come on man. We do have at least a decent idea that AASI represents the original hunter gatherers of South Asia while Indus Periphery isn't an actual ancestral population. It represents the mixed Iran N + West Siberian N + AASI ancestry of the SIS BA samples.

In addition, we know that the majority of AASI (ghost or not) the paper calculated for modern samples isn't obtained from Indus Periphery - Iran N. If you go back to the original paper, VM Narasimhan and the Reich team actually proxied the majority of AASI ancestry for South Asians using the Onge. The supplementary spreadsheet shows this. The AASI in Indus Periphery is just the leftover AASI ancestry they couldn't pull out because the lack of a pure enough AASI population to do so (Swat samples being too mixed).

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581 ‎

Since nMonte isn't using an actual Indus Periphery component but rather the SIS BA, Gonur, BMAC, etc. samples, what is being fitted is how much modern South Asians fit to these ancients. In other words, how much SIS BA3, Sintashta, Parkhai, West Siberian, N, etc. our autosomal ancestry is drawn to. Then, using the Iran N, AASI and Steppe breakdown provided for these ancients (see modeling from paper below), we can estimate how much Iran N, AASI and Steppe us moderns score. Obviously, the lower the distance, the better the fit while taking into account overfitting if some of the populations being used are unrealistic.

24714
24713

Well, to me, your point about Punjabi dalits or some SC/ST or SC/ST looking vastly different from Bangladeshi SC/ST and I'm presuming also South Indian mid-castes would suggest there is some type of common "Punjabi" look that spans the genetic cline of dalits to biradaris. Otherwise, how could both an average Jatt Sikh, Hindu Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Dalit all look "Punjabi?" Also, I'm not saying Punjabi SC And Bengali SC are historically related. What I am suggesting is they are at least somewhat autosomally similar (using a variety of admixture calcs or genetic modeling such as nMonte) and because of that similarity, there may be some phenotype overlap. I don't think that's a crazy jump in logic since there are definitely South Asians of different ethnic origins that can pass throughout the subcontinent from Punjab to Bangladesh to Gujarat and Tamil Nadu. Now, of course there are distinct regional phenotypes that are more common in certain areas but to me that is based on the cline of autosomal ancestry in South Asia.

Also, I've never had "garbage online fights" with Pashtuns regarding Punjabi phenotype. Nor have I ever been on the forum MDL referred to and the only proper interaction I've had with Pashtuns has been anthrogenica regarding autosomal DNA and haplogroups (I've had some minor genetic discussion with some Afghans on scape before). Anyways, I've been on anthro forums for awhile (and browsed quite a few) but it's a bit presumptuous to suggest I've actually had written interactions about us being "diverse looking." My observations are based on what I've read and the people I've come across in my personal life. In fact, anthroforums wise, it's actually other South Asians who have made more condescending posts about how my own ethnic group is supposed to "look." That just happens to rub me the wrong way. It's pretty infuriating to have others suggest you or your family aren't typical. In the end, any of my heated discussions were with my fellow South Asians.

If you say a Punjabi SC stands out among Bengali SC, that's fine. I'm not interested in going any further into deep pseudoscience phenotype discussions. Also, what do you want me to prove exactly regarding the relation between Punjabi SC And Bengali SC? That they can be modeled with tights fits using the same exact AASI related South Asian hunter gatherer population (assuming we get actual almost pure AASI ancient samples)? I'm presuming you desire this because you think the potential similar fits in nMonte with SIS BA3 and other ancients aren't accurate enough and based on a migration model you think is false or flawed (not just Steppe but Iran N from the Zagros too)?

Because, I'm not sure your "scientific based objection" would hold up against Narasimhan and the Reich lab? What about haplogroup data? For example, my y-DNA L1a2 and bmoney's L1a1 have had the oldest L1 sample found not too far from the Zagros in the Caucasus. The BMAC samples were also full of L1a, J2, etc. and even some common "West Asian" mt-DNA including my own. To me, it's not exactly a stretch to suggest the Neolithic famers of South Asia migrated from around these areas. That kind of data is also the missing piece in potential Steppe migrations (R1a1a-L657 right?). Not just the lack of Steppe or minor Steppe in the Swat samples.

Again, the AASI modeling for moderns in the Narasimhan paper is based primairly on Onge. I'd presume the AASI estimates for SIS BA3, SIS BA2, Gonur, etc. are as well. Because, it's been 9 years since the original Reich paper and Onge are still the closest living or ancient population we have to proxy AASI. Personally, I think if geneticists could model Paniya very accurately, a subtraction model with them would work better than just straight up using Onge since they're too genetically diverged from the original AASI population of South Asia.

Monkey did go on a rant which user Redifflal tossed around, cz most posters on PF aren't even Pashtuns esp those spewing verbal garbage about India and Pakistan on the run(not saying all Pashtuns are Angeles), don't even take that forum seriously or troll comments anywhere, if one does then perhaps take with trolls on reddit, twitter or youtube as well and run with it.
I don't even remember you scoffing off with Pashtun posters unless I missed it.
Anyway, my dime of an observation lulz:
Some punjabis like jatts and khatris, kashmiri/pahari do tend to look like Pashtuns and even West Asian, I have seen many now not in NY but in the West Coast. There is the shared genetic component playing a role perhaps. Nothing amazing to look like us, and I don't think that's a wannabe, no need to drag Pashtuns everywhere.

khanabadoshi
07-18-2018, 05:37 PM
Do southern Punjab Rajputs have the Multani/Sindhi/West Asian pull genotypically?


I have not seen any DNA results of seraiki rajput but seraiki people have sindhi pull because of historical reasons.

I don't know how they score genetically, they just tend to have certain features that I have come to associate with Rajput or Malik. In my time in Multan I met a lot of Rajputs, much of the Punjabi-speaking part of the city is Rajput and many of my cousins married Rajputs. In Multan city itself I would say with some confidence that most Rajputs first language is Punjabi and while many understand Saraiki, they can't speak more than a short sentence; which is why you will see Urdu being used a lot in the bazaar. In all other smaller cities near by to the north, most can speak Saraiki and Punjabi. In Bahawalpur, it seems they exclusively speak Saraiki. To the South and east of Bahawalpur they all speak Punjabi. Whether or not that has any bearing on genetics, I don't know. I would assume Rajputs more local to the area to have that Sindhi pull, and the Rajputs who moved within the last 50 years, would be less so. I know a good amount of Multani Rajputs, I could test one or 2.


This is my cousin's husband. He is a Rajput from just north of Multan. The 2nd picture is him, his father, and brother.



https://i.gyazo.com/8edcbf129e3d69a563f005aa2c0dc1e2.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/afb6241fcb8c7c88428192b5b616add7.jpg


I can tell he is from the Southern half of Punjab. His eyes and nose are what tell me that, and these features might be that "Sindhi/Baloch pull". There are like 3-4 kind of looks I associate with Rajputs in Southern Punjab, the other looks have a Rajasthani pull.
All this maybe the same in the North, but I am far less familiar with that because I've only spent time in Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, and Islamabad. Most of those cities have people from all over and I didn't spend long enough in either place to get the know the "make-up" so well. I did meet a ridiculous amount of Arains though in the North -- and while they clearly have some kind of Sindhi pull, they don't look like it all to me. So who knows?

bol_nat
07-18-2018, 11:29 PM
I don't know how they score genetically, they just tend to have certain features that I have come to associate with Rajput or Malik. In my time in Multan I met a lot of Rajputs, much of the Punjabi-speaking part of the city is Rajput and many of my cousins married Rajputs. In Multan city itself I would say with some confidence that most Rajputs first language is Punjabi and while many understand Saraiki, they can't speak more than a short sentence; which is why you will see Urdu being used a lot in the bazaar. In all other smaller cities near by to the north, most can speak Saraiki and Punjabi. In Bahawalpur, it seems they exclusively speak Saraiki. To the South and east of Bahawalpur they all speak Punjabi. Whether or not that has any bearing on genetics, I don't know. I would assume Rajputs more local to the area to have that Sindhi pull, and the Rajputs who moved within the last 50 years, would be less so. I know a good amount of Multani Rajputs, I could test one or 2.


This is my cousin's husband. He is a Rajput from just north of Multan. The 2nd picture is him, his father, and brother.



I can tell he is from the Southern half of Punjab. His eyes and nose are what tell me that, and these features might be that "Sindhi/Baloch pull". There are like 3-4 kind of looks I associate with Rajputs in Southern Punjab, the other looks have a Rajasthani pull.
All this maybe the same in the North, but I am far less familiar with that because I've only spent time in Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, and Islamabad. Most of those cities have people from all over and I didn't spend long enough in either place to get the know the "make-up" so well. I did meet a ridiculous amount of Arains though in the North -- and while they clearly have some kind of Sindhi pull, they don't look like it all to me. So who knows?

Honestly I can't tell who's who just at looking at them. I don't have much idea about rajputs in south punjab was just going by general public election videos. Arains are shitload in Faisalabad and Lahore. Its just me or seraki baloch in DG Khan look bit more "baloch" like then Multani baloch or sindhi baloch? I'm just going by DG Khan division khosas and legharis I see on tv and compare them with other sindhi/seraiki baloch tribe people.

khanabadoshi
07-19-2018, 12:14 AM
Honestly I can't tell who's who just at looking at them. I don't have much idea about rajputs in south punjab was just going by general public election videos. Arains are shitload in Faisalabad and Lahore. Its just me or seraki baloch in DG Khan look bit more "baloch" like then Multani baloch or sindhi baloch? I'm just going by DG Khan division khosas and legharis I see on tv and compare them with other sindhi/seraiki baloch tribe people.

DG Khan and Rajanpur still have the most organized tribes of the Baloch outside the Bugti and Marri. All the core tribes are represented in DG Khan. There are also a decent amount of Brahui. Most Saraiki-speaking Baloch sardars also attend a grand jirga if called in Balochistan; especially all the heads of the DG Khan tribes. DG Khan is settled by all the higher status Baloch tribes, and Muzaffargarh is settled mostly by the ghulami tribes. There are not many Baloch in Multan city itself -- if they live there, they moved from another town, and their main home is still in that town. I have only one relative that lives in Multan city. All the Baloch are mostly settled west of Multan.

In practical purposes I view all of DG Khan as Balochistan proper. The frontier region of DG Khan (like Ft. Monroe) is unquestionably considered by every local as 100% Balochistan, even though it's administratively in Punjab. In Rajanpur everyone speaks both Balochi and Saraiki. In DG Khan, I can't put a hard number, except that outside the city proper many Baloch speak both Balochi and Saraiki, and within the city itself some speak both, some don't. In the frontier region of DG Khan everyone speaks Balochi.

Long story short: Yes, they look more Baloch, because they are more Baloch LOL. But DG Khan has a decent Haryanvi and Jatt population as well, so that's something to consider.

Kurd should know about all this better than me.

Censored
07-19-2018, 04:30 AM
If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.

What impact did the migration of Pashtuns and Baloch have on the Pakistani Punjabi population? This is rarely discussed. I always thought the Pakistanis will be western or northwestern shifted compared to their Indian counterparts as a result of mingling with Pashtun, Kashmiri, and Baloch as well as the fact that historically the Muslims were more on the west side of the region while Hindus/Sikhs were further east(natural cline). Even if there was a higher proportion of AASI rich groups among the Muslims, it would at least be balanced out by pull from the Pashtun/Kashmiri/Baluch influence.

bol_nat
07-19-2018, 05:38 AM
DG Khan and Rajanpur still have the most organized tribes of the Baloch outside the Bugti and Marri. All the core tribes are represented in DG Khan. There are also a decent amount of Brahui. Most Saraiki-speaking Baloch sardars also attend a grand jirga if called in Balochistan; especially all the heads of the DG Khan tribes. DG Khan is settled by all the higher status Baloch tribes, and Muzaffargarh is settled mostly by the ghulami tribes. There are not many Baloch in Multan city itself -- if they live there, they moved from another town, and their main home is still in that town. I have only one relative that lives in Multan city. All the Baloch are mostly settled west of Multan.

In practical purposes I view all of DG Khan as Balochistan proper. The frontier region of DG Khan (like Ft. Monroe) is unquestionably considered by every local as 100% Balochistan, even though it's administratively in Punjab. In Rajanpur everyone speaks both Balochi and Saraiki. In DG Khan, I can't put a hard number, except that outside the city proper many Baloch speak both Balochi and Saraiki, and within the city itself some speak both, some don't. In the frontier region of DG Khan everyone speaks Balochi.

Long story short: Yes, they look more Baloch, because they are more Baloch LOL. But DG Khan has a decent Haryanvi and Jatt population as well, so that's something to consider.

Kurd should know about all this better than me.

Yeah I though so because I saw infamous video released few weeks ago from some DG Khan village where people are asking from sardar where he was last 5 years after winning election. And noticed some difference in looks between that and some other south punjab videos.

poi
07-19-2018, 06:13 AM
Oh man, I was tied up too much and missed this thread as shits going down here lol Btw, the thread title is epic @khana.

bmoney
07-19-2018, 07:39 AM
I don't know how they score genetically, they just tend to have certain features that I have come to associate with Rajput or Malik. In my time in Multan I met a lot of Rajputs, much of the Punjabi-speaking part of the city is Rajput and many of my cousins married Rajputs. In Multan city itself I would say with some confidence that most Rajputs first language is Punjabi and while many understand Saraiki, they can't speak more than a short sentence; which is why you will see Urdu being used a lot in the bazaar. In all other smaller cities near by to the north, most can speak Saraiki and Punjabi. In Bahawalpur, it seems they exclusively speak Saraiki. To the South and east of Bahawalpur they all speak Punjabi. Whether or not that has any bearing on genetics, I don't know. I would assume Rajputs more local to the area to have that Sindhi pull, and the Rajputs who moved within the last 50 years, would be less so. I know a good amount of Multani Rajputs, I could test one or 2.


This is my cousin's husband. He is a Rajput from just north of Multan. The 2nd picture is him, his father, and brother.



I can tell he is from the Southern half of Punjab. His eyes and nose are what tell me that, and these features might be that "Sindhi/Baloch pull". There are like 3-4 kind of looks I associate with Rajputs in Southern Punjab, the other looks have a Rajasthani pull.
All this maybe the same in the North, but I am far less familiar with that because I've only spent time in Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, and Islamabad. Most of those cities have people from all over and I didn't spend long enough in either place to get the know the "make-up" so well. I did meet a ridiculous amount of Arains though in the North -- and while they clearly have some kind of Sindhi pull, they don't look like it all to me. So who knows?

Is it just me or is there some striking phenotypic overlap with Gujaratis and Sindhis among his family here, that pan-West Indian look @pegasus mentioned which is probably the Iran_N talking

Khana I wouldn't say you look Sindhi at all, how do you fit in phenotypically in Multan/Southern Poonjab?

prashantvaidwan
07-19-2018, 07:58 AM
2473024729


And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian..
I have heard on this forum that phenotype and genotype are not tightly coupled. It makes sense to some individual level or cherry picks. But on an average scale, genomes is going to exhibit in your physical traits more or less, otherwise a Scandinavian would not have been distinguished from a Mongolian. So these high steppes Haryana jatts, their steppes is goofing around in the wilderness of Sahara desert or shuttling in space? Haryanvi jatts look like baniyas? ....build? looks?. Come on dude, haraynavi jatts may have a dark tone in skin color or not very nord-indid looking but they don't look baniyas at all...neither in build nor in features and they are quite distinct from baniyas genetically. Come to my village, I will show you many tanned boys, toiling soils for years and they will fade your caucasian cousins in features and build.

passion
07-19-2018, 08:19 AM
I have heard on this forum that phenotype and genotype are not tightly coupled. It makes sense to some individual level or cherry picks. But on an average scale, genomes is going to exhibit in your physical traits more or less, otherwise a Scandinavian would not have been distinguished from a Mongolian. So these high steppes Haryana jatts, their steppes is goofing around in the wilderness of Sahara desert or shuttling in space? Haryanvi jatts look like baniyas? ....build? looks?. Come on dude, haraynavi jatts may have a dark tone in skin color or not very nord-indid looking but they don't look baniyas at all...neither in build nor in features and they are quite distinct from baniyas genetically. Come to my village, I will show you many tanned boys, toiling soils for years and they will fade your caucasian cousins in features and build.

haryanivis remind me of multani/seraiki people, will you say these multanis fit well in haryana?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFalWrXIQSw

prashantvaidwan
07-19-2018, 09:36 AM
haryanivis remind me of multani/seraiki people, will you say these multanis fit well in haryana?


Apart from couple of girls/ladies with exotic looks, others will easily fit in haryana

MonkeyDLuffy
07-19-2018, 10:20 AM
2473024729
I have heard on this forum that phenotype and genotype are not tightly coupled. It makes sense to some individual level or cherry picks. But on an average scale, genomes is going to exhibit in your physical traits more or less, otherwise a Scandinavian would not have been distinguished from a Mongolian. So these high steppes Haryana jatts, their steppes is goofing around in the wilderness of Sahara desert or shuttling in space? Haryanvi jatts look like baniyas? ....build? looks?. Come on dude, haraynavi jatts may have a dark tone in skin color or not very nord-indid looking but they don't look baniyas at all...neither in build nor in features and they are quite distinct from baniyas genetically. Come to my village, I will show you many tanned boys, toiling soils for years and they will fade your caucasian cousins in features and build.

We have decent amount of Haryanvis in Chandigarh. Reason I'm able to speak and understand it fluently. I'm not commenting on their build, or height. I'm talking about their features in comparison to exotic looking kohistanis who are more east eurasian shifted overall. I should have put that in more clear way.

Here a good example of their diversity:

24731

passion
07-19-2018, 10:36 AM
imran khan in kohistan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdmEx4_64e8

pegasus
07-19-2018, 12:36 PM
2473024729
I have heard on this forum that phenotype and genotype are not tightly coupled. It makes sense to some individual level or cherry picks. But on an average scale, genomes is going to exhibit in your physical traits more or less, otherwise a Scandinavian would not have been distinguished from a Mongolian. So these high steppes Haryana jatts, their steppes is goofing around in the wilderness of Sahara desert or shuttling in space? Haryanvi jatts look like baniyas? ....build? looks?. Come on dude, haraynavi jatts may have a dark tone in skin color or not very nord-indid looking but they don't look baniyas at all...neither in build nor in features and they are quite distinct from baniyas genetically. Come to my village, I will show you many tanned boys, toiling soils for years and they will fade your caucasian cousins in features and build.

I will give you that in general they are taller and robust , but to the general outsider like me they look like other North Central Indians with many having a Pan SA look, as Dluffy mentioned . The ones which were deemed 'exotic' looked between SC Asian or lighter Punjabi types but nothing exotic considering the large amount of Steppe they do have. The Haryana Jatt women look even more pan SA than the men from my observation . As for their muscular physiques , thats more nurture than nature. Climate plays a massive role in shaping phenotypes because you can have Burusho/Hunza people who are more Siberian/NE Asian shifted with less Steppe ,who look Balkanite or Kavkaz like this Hunza football player but they are essentially very Saidu Sharif like with extra 10-15% Tibeto Burman mixture .

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37272306_2156149664667534_4719585325003833344_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=9260123e1abc786a86d00e4370b1776a&oe=5BE80BE1

prashantvaidwan
07-19-2018, 01:57 PM
I will give you that in general they are taller and robust , but to the general outsider like me they look like other North Central Indians with many having a Pan SA look, as Dluffy mentioned . The ones which were deemed 'exotic' looked between SC Asian or lighter Punjabi types but nothing exotic considering the large amount of Steppe they do have. The Haryana Jatt women look even more pan SA than the men from my observation . As for their muscular physiques , thats more nurture than nature. Climate plays a massive role in shaping phenotypes because you can have Burusho/Hunza people who are more Siberian/NE Asian shifted with less Steppe ,who look Balkanite or Kavkaz like this Hunza football player but they are essentially very Saidu Sharif like with extra 10-15% Tibeto Burman mixture .

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37272306_2156149664667534_4719585325003833344_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=9260123e1abc786a86d00e4370b1776a&oe=5BE80BE1
I knew it was coming from you..lol..I bet you would not have visited a single jat village in your entire life. North central india?...central UP?.... regionally, most of jat inhabited area is part of north west..and even in that on an average jats stand out their neighboring population....you did not even say they lie between north central and north-west ..is there anything personal against jats? ...lol.. they don't look very exotic despite that high steppe but they are also not like north central indians or with that pan SA look. They are distinct. 24733I have posted another photo for you apart from the two in previous posts...normal rural folks..now tell me how do they look like UP walas?
As far as that pan SA look is concerned that can be spotted even in the deep north west and among all the castes..so you can not just cherry picks. it mean nothing. By the way, how many jats have you met in your entire life... 15-20?

kakiasumi
07-19-2018, 03:00 PM
I will give you that in general they are taller and robust , but to the general outsider like me they look like other North Central Indians with many having a Pan SA look, as Dluffy mentioned . The ones which were deemed 'exotic' looked between SC Asian or lighter Punjabi types but nothing exotic considering the large amount of Steppe they do have. The Haryana Jatt women look even more pan SA than the men from my observation . As for their muscular physiques , thats more nurture than nature. Climate plays a massive role in shaping phenotypes because you can have Burusho/Hunza people who are more Siberian/NE Asian shifted with less Steppe ,who look Balkanite or Kavkaz like this Hunza football player but they are essentially very Saidu Sharif like with extra 10-15% Tibeto Burman mixture .

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37272306_2156149664667534_4719585325003833344_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=9260123e1abc786a86d00e4370b1776a&oe=5BE80BE1


Pegasus where are you from??

redifflal
07-19-2018, 03:13 PM
Has anyone considered amount of body hair produced as indicative of specialized ancestries to regions and castes? I mean hair on back shoulders etc, even just hair density on chest and arms.

poi
07-19-2018, 03:52 PM
Has anyone considered amount of body hair produced as indicative of specialized ancestries to regions and castes? I mean hair on back shoulders etc, even just hair density on chest and arms.

Apparently there are 17 SNPs associated with the back hair and 23andme shows that in its traits report.

"We added up the effect of your genetic variants at 17 places in your DNA (genetic markers) plus the effect of other factors, including your age.

At 10 of the genetic markers we looked at you have variants that make you likely to have less back hair, and at 3 you have variants that make you likely to have more. At 4 of the markers that we looked at, you have variants with no effect either way (not shown)."

It also says: Body hair and early human history
Hairlessness is the most striking difference between modern humans and our ancient ancestors. Some scientists believe that losing body hair helped control body temperature in hot climates. It is possible that less body hair aided in "persistence hunting" a tactic where teams of hunters chased their prey over long distances until the animal was exhausted. Less body hair meant better sweating and cooling, making humans uniquely successful in this hunting technique.

redifflal
07-19-2018, 04:09 PM
Apparently there are 17 SNPs associated with the back hair and 23andme shows that in its traits report.

"We added up the effect of your genetic variants at 17 places in your DNA (genetic markers) plus the effect of other factors, including your age.

At 10 of the genetic markers we looked at you have variants that make you likely to have less back hair, and at 3 you have variants that make you likely to have more. At 4 of the markers that we looked at, you have variants with no effect either way (not shown)."

It also says: Body hair and early human history
Hairlessness is the most striking difference between modern humans and our ancient ancestors. Some scientists believe that losing body hair helped control body temperature in hot climates. It is possible that less body hair aided in "persistence hunting" a tactic where teams of hunters chased their prey over long distances until the animal was exhausted. Less body hair meant better sweating and cooling, making humans uniquely successful in this hunting technique.

So is hairiness in some non African populations a function of incorporating it from the early hominid of non Africa like Neanderthal or Denisovan? Also why is it only some non Africans then? Hairiness is pronounced in like a band from northwest Indian subcontinent to at most like Lebanon or Greece. Hardly a hairy Bengali of any caste or Tamil of any caste. I knew a Nair though, big 6 feet tall dark burly and hairy like a carpet. All the girls loved hugging him like a big teddy bear once drunk at parties lol.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-19-2018, 04:24 PM
I'd say Neolithic farmers developed it, like Levant farmers or Iran N farmers, and since farmer communities in south asia have higher Iran N, it makes sense for them to have it.

bol_nat
07-19-2018, 04:32 PM
imran khan in kohistan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdmEx4_64e8

Kohistanis look similar to Chitralis.

passion
07-19-2018, 04:38 PM
Kohistanis look similar to Chitralis.

yes many gujjers from adjacent Naran Valley/Babusar Top also dont look that different.

redifflal
07-19-2018, 04:43 PM
I'd say Neolithic farmers developed it, like Levant farmers or Iran N farmers, and since farmer castes have higher Iran N, it makes sense for them to develop it.

But high Iran_N is there even in Dravidian tribals and they're never hairy. According to the calcs I'd associate hairiness with high Steppe not Iran_N in south Asians, whereas outside of South Asia hairiness is more a Mediterranean thing than a steppe or northern or eastern European thing. There's tons of videos all over YouTube of lower caste and tribal folks outside of the northwest subcontinent where you can see shirtless men and they hardly have body hair. Or only as hairy as western Euros or even less like blacks or east Asians. On other hand upper caste hairiness in north and northwest subcontinent is a stand alone in the world lol.

https://youtu.be/1mHnUinm2bc
Kerala temple ritual drummers, this is a caste based profession, so we're probably looking at members of an endogamous group above

redifflal
07-19-2018, 05:15 PM
I really enjoyed this video as it came up in related videos off the above one. The beats are hypnotic. I doubt people from these backgrounds would be vain enough to shave or trim their body hairs.

https://youtu.be/KoNZvJI9Z7s
I would like to visit Kerala just to witness this festival. I visited Sri Lanka once and was expecting a similar beat style as these Kerala videos but it was more eastern Indian style.

You guys might think this is trippy like rest of my concepts but I genuinely believe rhythm also comes to people in different manners through their genes. People talk of African drumming but if you start learning about it, there is specific patterns and cycles associated with particular tribes alone and a person knows another person's identity just off the beats they play. We saw Iceland team fans doing the Viking clap during the world cup lol. People make fun of whites for lack of rhythm but they are being judged on an African quality scale, there is a different rhythm that resonates with whites and they probably don't see eye to eye regarding what is best rhythm. Indian people also have very uniquely particular rhythms and this also is different area to area. You can hear beats from Punjab that go back to harvest festivals but they are very very different from above Kerala beats, which are very different from eastern India below. Ours are more slow to build up to start introducing innovations while playing, it is like you're allowed more time to get captured into it.

https://youtu.be/6oJyWDZDagE

poi
07-19-2018, 05:52 PM
But high Iran_N is there even in Dravidian tribals and they're never hairy. According to the calcs I'd associate hairiness with high Steppe not Iran_N in south Asians, whereas outside of South Asia hairiness is more a Mediterranean thing than a steppe or northern or eastern European thing. There's tons of videos all over YouTube of lower caste and tribal folks outside of the northwest subcontinent where you can see shirtless men and they hardly have body hair. Or only as hairy as western Euros or even less like blacks or east Asians. On other hand upper caste hairiness in north and northwest subcontinent is a stand alone in the world lol.

https://youtu.be/1mHnUinm2bc
Kerala temple ritual drummers, this is a caste based profession, so we're probably looking at members of an endogamous group above

I don't know about associating steppe with back hairiness. In SouthAsia, do Kalash, being most steppe, have hairy backs? Do Tajiks, among the highest steppe in the world, have It? We have relatively high steppe (for South asians) and back hair is rare. 23andme gives me, my dad, and father in law as "low back hair" at 23% at most.

But, if steppe is the cause for back hair in south asia then other non steppe admix could have tempered it. Afterall, steppe is just a minor part of our ancestey. We can know for sure by running SNP checks on steppe aDNA.

anthroin
07-19-2018, 06:12 PM
redifflal, you surely don't think there may be some genetic reason regarding the above, do you? (Not berating you or anything there; just curious; in fact even I'm tempted a lot of times to take these kinds of observations about localised variations in basic activities like music, etc. to extremes and not for any racist reasons obviously lol; I of course don't think you were being any racist or the-appropriate-negative-intentioned-philosophical-positioned there either.) I think they are a result of kind of cultural snow-balling effects; it may be the case that some prestigious event first happened with these tribes when beating a particular rhythm and they have used it ever since and it may also be because they accidentally discovered that rhythm and have been using it since then in a culturally important manner. I may have been wrong though and it may be that what you have suggested is also this kind of a cultural origin as opposed to any innate reasons. In any case, I too definitely feel that there are certain beats and melodies that tend to define a culture (that's why I'm writing this comment)- for example, the Kerala Panchari Melam etc. rhythms may very well be belonging to some specific classes within the whole types of rhythms, etc. (of which I have no idea; I have no innate sense of rhythm either I think). Similar might be the case with the Bengali rhythms I used to hear during the Durga Puja celebrations undertaken by the Bengali community at my college in Uttarakhand. With respect to melody also, Kerala also seems to have some particular swara or a set of swaras associated with it (no idea what they are but if I listen to some melodies being played, I can very well point out what sound the most Kerala-like to me among them), Arabia seems to have an air about it which there is the pathos sense brought about by the Kakali Nishada (the third ni in Carnatic music) in ragas like Mayamalavagoula (I am only familiar with the Mayamalavagoula lol; it's the first raga taught in Carnatic music and I looked at some music learning videos a long time ago in an attempt to master off Carnatic music but obviously abandoned the exercise after some two or three weeks later lol) associated with it. I read that some popular ragas in Hindustani and Carnatic music in fact had ultimate historical origins in Arabia, perhaps some like the above- though I'm not aware of the details.

Regarding the hairiness business, are there any genes or sets of genes identified as associated with this specific body feature so far? I guess not, at least not very early, as this trait is perhaps not very attractive to research compared to skin pigmentation or blond hair or blue eyes or stuff like that.

Edit: If I said very hurtful things to you, I'm extremely sorry. I definitely seemed to have thrown in the "racist" word quite carelessly there. What I intended was perhaps "biological-determinism-istic" (this may be wrong also and I can't seem to properly convey what I want to convey). And of course I believe you were anything but racist all along, suggesting the possibility of and emphasising the genetic and cultural divergence between the pre-neolithic hunter gatherers of various regions of India, underlining the need for ancient genomes from India, etc. It is very sad that I brought up that element of discussion in that manner in the first few sentences of the comment. I'm very sorry again.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-19-2018, 06:41 PM
But high Iran_N is there even in Dravidian tribals and they're never hairy. According to the calcs I'd associate hairiness with high Steppe not Iran_N in south Asians, whereas outside of South Asia hairiness is more a Mediterranean thing than a steppe or northern or eastern European thing. There's tons of videos all over YouTube of lower caste and tribal folks outside of the northwest subcontinent where you can see shirtless men and they hardly have body hair. Or only as hairy as western Euros or even less like blacks or east Asians. On other hand upper caste hairiness in north and northwest subcontinent is a stand alone in the world lol.

https://youtu.be/1mHnUinm2bc
Kerala temple ritual drummers, this is a caste based profession, so we're probably looking at members of an endogamous group above

Nope, tribals don't have high Iran N. Nairs do, telgus like kush do, and they have decent hair. I'm not from a farmer caste but again punjabis mostly have high farmer ancestry. Tribals have high austroasiatic and SE asian admixture, which is way higher than their iran N ancestry. East eurasians are generally less hairy except drifted pops like Papuans and Australian Aboriginals. Most of South Indian mid to high castes are mix of Iran N + AASI, with brahmins having highest steppe among them, and it's still low in comparison to pops like jatts or khatris or even Northern brahmins. While the dalits and tribals have noise level to no steppe at all, and higher SE asian and austro asiatic admixture, resulting in them having very less hair. Look at Onge for e.g., they're not hairy at all and are east eurasian completely.

In south usually communities like Nairs are more hairy than Brahmins regardless of both having decent Iran N, reason I'd say is because brahmins have extra steppe, which nairs mostly lack.

bol_nat
07-19-2018, 07:05 PM
yes many gujjers from adjacent Naran Valley/Babusar Top also dont look that different.

Another thing is Kohistani is dardic language but they are very conservative unlike Gilgitis and Chitralis.

midichlorian
07-19-2018, 07:48 PM
Gujjus and Punjabis are the hairiest. Marwaris not so much. Interesting why that happens.

khanabadoshi
07-19-2018, 08:32 PM
haryanivis remind me of multani/seraiki people, will you say these multanis fit well in haryana?



In Multan city, there is a good chance many people in the video are Haryanvi. Many of the people's accent in Urdu is telling me who speaks Punjabi and who speaks Saraiki. The store-owner guy in pink shirt I'm damn sure is Haryanvi, the vast majority of shop-keepers in Cantt are Haryanvi or Ismail'i.
@0:20, those girls walking with black dupatta are all upper-middle class Multani -- deffo Saraiki-speakers. @1:12 the guy and girl are both Punjabi-speakers and likely Jatt. @1:18 Hardest to tell because he is very tonal in his Urdu, but he could be Saraiki-speaking Rajput or Haryanvi. Girl @1:31 Punjabi-speaker straight up, and her face is very Multani-Punjabi Rajput. Like 50% of Punjabi-speaking middle-class women in Multan look like her. @1:37 I can't tell. @1:47 Saraiki-speaker local, she speaks primarily Saraiki. Shop-keeper @2:10 I'm pretty sure is Haryanvi. News-lady @2:24 I'm sure is Jatt.

redifflal
07-19-2018, 08:37 PM
Sorry so I'm reading up on who the traditional temple drummers of Kerala are. Looks like two communities named Marar which is a Nair subtype and Poduval which is intermediate between Nair and Brahmins. So characterizing them as SC of Kerala was my mistake. They are fairly high up...

I will respond to rest of you guys soon

khanabadoshi
07-19-2018, 09:44 PM
Is it just me or is there some striking phenotypic overlap with Gujaratis and Sindhis among his family here, that pan-West Indian look @pegasus mentioned which is probably the Iran_N talking

Khana I wouldn't say you look Sindhi at all, how do you fit in phenotypically in Multan/Southern Poonjab?

I am a little lighter than my Father and Uncles, but I look very much like them. In Muzaffargarh everyone in the bazaar can tell by looking at me I'm from such and such tribe and family. If I were clean-shaven I may stand out. I think most people can tell I'm mostly Baloch. My family consider me to look very Baloch, certainly compared to my siblings. I do not look anything like my Kashmiri, or Kho/Uzbek side, though I may have some features pulled that way (like the shape of my eyes). And that probably gives me a very pan-Pakistani face. Outside of Southern Punjab sometimes people think I'm from the far North or I'm Pashtun, but not very often. Most Indians think I'm Punjabi. In Lahore or Islamabad, no one asks where I'm from. The only real thing that stands out the most about me is my nose, it is unusual for anywhere in Pakistan, and not like my parents or grandparents. Most Baloch and Saraiki and Sindhi men are considerably darker-skinned than everyone from the North, so that is probably the most surprising thing for people if I say I am from Muzaffargarh.

I believe you are right about phenotypes with Gujarat. I think many of the women of my family share lots of features with Muslim Gujaratis that I've met in Karachi.

I'm going to remove these pics pretty quickly:



when Bmoney is back I'll put them back up



In my opinion, you will see the phenotypes of the men and women of this area go Southeast rather than Northeast. You can see they all have the nose bump thing, which I don't. [There are 2 noses in the paternal family, a long sharp nose with the bump, or a short stout pudgy nose. Also, when a kid is born they wrap their heads (like some Pashtuns do) and pull their nose to shape them as a kid is growing. A beautiful nose culturally is like an "eagle". Some of my cousins' mothers did that, some didn't. My mother didn't because her mother didn't due to the obvious fact that she isn't from these parts. But.... it's a big factor in telling people in the region apart, because of the pervasive practice of nose-shaping. It didn't happen with my father either since his mom is Kashmiri.]

Cousin in 2nd picture is whose father is most unmixed in my family (and whose kit I lost!) Her mother is Almani Baloch, so she is probably the most Baloch of all my cousins. She is what I consider many Baloch women to look like (irrespective of skin color, that can vary wildly, the features are what stay consistent).

Also, I'm dumb... 3rd cousins wife, is my 3rd cousin.... she gained weight... didn't recognize her at first LMAO... she would murder me. She is Baloch.

Jatt1
07-19-2018, 10:09 PM
I am a little lighter than my Father and Uncles, but I look very much like them. In Muzaffargarh everyone in the bazaar can tell by looking at me I'm from such and such tribe and family. If I were clean-shaven I may stand out. I think most people can tell I'm mostly Baloch. My family consider me to look very Baloch, certainly compared to my siblings. I do not look anything like my Kashmiri, or Kho/Uzbek side, though I may have some features pulled that way (like the shape of my eyes). And that probably gives me a very pan-Pakistani face. Outside of Southern Punjab sometimes people think I'm from the far North or I'm Pashtun, but not very often. Most Indians think I'm Punjabi. In Lahore or Islamabad, no one asks where I'm from. The only real thing that stands out the most about me is my nose, it is unusual for anywhere in Pakistan, and not like my parents or grandparents. Most Baloch and Saraiki and Sindhi men are considerably darker-skinned than everyone from the North, so that is probably the most surprising thing for people if I say I am from Muzaffargarh.

I believe you are right about phenotypes with Gujarat. I think many of the women of my family share lots of features with Muslim Gujaratis that I've met in Karachi.

I'm going to remove these pics pretty quickly:



In my opinion, you will see the phenotypes of the men and women of this area go Southeast rather than Northeast. You can see they all have the nose bump thing, which I don't.
Cousin in 2nd picture is whose father is most unmixed in my family (and whose kit I lost!) Her mother is Almani Baloch, so she is probably the most Baloch of all my cousins. She is what I consider many Baloch women to look like (irrespective of skin color, that can vary wildly, the features are what stay consistent).

@Khana, won't your family kill you for posting your family women's photos on line, Baloches are very strict in these matter, isn't it? Bottom left in read resembles Sharmila Tagore?

bol_nat
07-19-2018, 10:16 PM
In Multan city, there is a good chance many people in the video are Haryanvi. Many of the people's accent in Urdu is telling me who speaks Punjabi and who speaks Saraiki. The store-owner guy in pink shirt I'm damn sure is Haryanvi, the vast majority of shop-keepers in Cantt are Haryanvi or Ismail'i.
@0:20, those girls walking with black dupatta are all upper-middle class Multani -- deffo Saraiki-speakers. @1:12 the guy and girl are both Punjabi-speakers and likely Jatt. @1:18 Hardest to tell because he is very tonal in his Urdu, but he could be Saraiki-speaking Rajput or Haryanvi. Girl @1:31 Punjabi-speaker straight up, and her face is very Multani-Punjabi Rajput. Like 50% of Punjabi-speaking middle-class women in Multan look like her. @1:37 I can't tell. @1:47 Saraiki-speaker local, she speaks primarily Saraiki. Shop-keeper @2:10 I'm pretty sure is Haryanvi. News-lady @2:24 I'm sure is Jatt.

wow, can you guess this person background?

deleted

bol_nat
07-19-2018, 10:30 PM
@Khana, won't your family kill you for posting your family women's photos on line, Baloches are very strict in these matter, isn't it? Bottom left in read resembles Sharmila Tagore?

what pictures? :P

khanabadoshi
07-19-2018, 10:32 PM
wow, can you guess this person background?



Can you post another picture? I need to see his nose better.

khanabadoshi
07-19-2018, 10:44 PM
@Khana, won't your family kill you for posting your family women's photos on line, Baloches are very strict in these matter, isn't it? Bottom left in read resembles Sharmila Tagore?

They trust my judgment and my judgement is that I trust the majority of the Hindi-section for 3 minutes LOL. Especially, since the intention is more educational than anything else.

You remind me of a funny story though. My sister was visiting and was taking pictures of the village from the back seat of the car and we came to a stop next to a guy on motorcycle with his wife in niqaab. My sister is holding the camera but took no pictures. My father and I already know what is about to happen, we panic and tell her to put away the camera, but the guy is already walking to the car... "Mehrbaani sain, meda ahl-e-khana ta tasweer na kicchu"... My father takes the camera to show him that none were taken and the man says thank you and then he walks away. My sister got so scared, mostly cuz she sucks at understanding Saraiki LOL. My sister in niqaab holding a camera, that woman in niqaab... what was there to take a picture of? Like even if she took a picture, you can't see the woman... navigating Pakistan can be a chore sometimes.

If you find yourself in the Suleiman mountain range the homes of the Baloch that live there are like on tiered levels on the mountain face and they put no pardah. If you look up at the mountains and they think you can see the women of their house, they shoot warning shots down at you. It also a common cause of dispute with the neighbor who lives on the lower tier. That never happened to me, I knew not to look up because I learned from my uncle's mistake.

bol_nat
07-19-2018, 11:34 PM
Can you post another picture? I need to see his nose better.

This is only other picture I have of him, with wife.

deleted

MonkeyDLuffy
07-19-2018, 11:50 PM
This is only other picture I have of him, with wife.



Aunty is very khatri looking, while uncle reminds me of punjabi Brahmins I've met.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 12:15 AM
I feel like he is from Layyah/Bhakkar, maybe Jhang. He could be settled in Faisalabad, but not from there. He is from near the Indus but north from me. Like northern Thal region. In the first picture much about him reminded me of DG Khan Qaisrani Baloch tribe, in 2nd picture I'm sure is he from more north. I think he is a Malik and/or Rajput. This face is also seen in Bahawalpur. The Thal people and Bahawalpur people have a lot of overlap.

If he doesn't speak Saraiki, then he is at least close to Saraiki-speaking areas. If he speaks Punjabi, he probably speaks an intermediate dialect between Saraiki/Punjabi. If this guy is from Lahore or Gujaranwala or something, I will be surprised. If he is Jatt I will be surprised. If he is a pure Punjabi-speaker, I will be surprised.
He at the very least has to be somewhere from Central Punjab towards the south or west.

So my final guess is Malik/Rajput from somewhere between Jhang and Layyah. We call people from that area Thalochi.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 12:36 AM
Watch... I'm gonna be so wrong LOL....

bol_nat
07-20-2018, 12:37 AM
I feel like he is from Layyah/Bhakkar, maybe Jhang. He could be settled in Faisalabad, but not from there. He is from near the Indus but north from me. Like northern Thal region. In the first picture much about him reminded me of DG Khan Qaisrani Baloch tribe, in 2nd picture I'm sure is he from more north. I think he is a Malik and/or Rajput. This face is also seen in Bahawalpur. The Thal people and Bahawalpur people have a lot of overlap.

If he doesn't speak Saraiki, then he is at least close to Saraiki-speaking areas. If he speaks Punjabi, he probably speaks an intermediate dialect between Saraiki/Punjabi. If this guy is from Lahore or Gujaranwala or something, I will be surprised. If he is Jatt I will be surprised. If he is a pure Punjabi-speaker, I will be surprised.
He at the very least has to be somewhere from Central Punjab towards the south or west.

So my final guess is Malik/Rajput from somewhere between Jhang and Layyah.


haha close enough, he's rajput from Kharian/Gujrat pind. I toke these pictures in wedding of my cousin and his daughter, yes marriage in between baradaris isn't unheard even if obviously not common or first choice.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 12:43 AM
haha close enough, he's rajput from Kharian/Gujrat pind. I toke these pictures in wedding of my cousin and his daughter, yes marriage in between baradaris isn't unheard even if obviously not common or first choice.

LOL at least I got the Rajput part.... LMAO...
No more guessing for me for a week!

bol_nat
07-20-2018, 12:44 AM
Watch... I'm gonna be so wrong LOL....

Its actually funny you though I would know someone from that far in punjab. My circle of people I know IRL doesn't go much beyond Gujrat neighbour districts from all sides, that's as far as our family have any relations/rishtedars. Rest I only have seen on tv and internet.

bmoney
07-20-2018, 01:04 AM
I really enjoyed this video as it came up in related videos off the above one. The beats are hypnotic. I doubt people from these backgrounds would be vain enough to shave or trim their body hairs.

I would like to visit Kerala just to witness this festival. I visited Sri Lanka once and was expecting a similar beat style as these Kerala videos but it was more eastern Indian style.

You guys might think this is trippy like rest of my concepts but I genuinely believe rhythm also comes to people in different manners through their genes. People talk of African drumming but if you start learning about it, there is specific patterns and cycles associated with particular tribes alone and a person knows another person's identity just off the beats they play. We saw Iceland team fans doing the Viking clap during the world cup lol. People make fun of whites for lack of rhythm but they are being judged on an African quality scale, there is a different rhythm that resonates with whites and they probably don't see eye to eye regarding what is best rhythm. Indian people also have very uniquely particular rhythms and this also is different area to area. You can hear beats from Punjab that go back to harvest festivals but they are very very different from above Kerala beats, which are very different from eastern India below. Ours are more slow to build up to start introducing innovations while playing, it is like you're allowed more time to get captured into it.


Iran_N or Basal Eurasian more specifically correlates with hairiness more than Steppe does, for example West Asia, Southern Europe where high levels of Basal Eurasian ancestry exists vs Sami and Baltic peoples where high levels of Steppe (EHG? due to the tendency to exclude Steppe Iranian ancestry by Steppists) exists. I also believe the Villabruna cluster included some of those hairyness genes Poi referred to based on observation.

The pictures you posted are of people with low Iran_N overall, South and East Indians are low Iran_N compared to the NW and Gedrosia. Paniya and the scheduled caste temple drummers are about 25-35% Iran_N compared to Baloch/Brahui who are probably 70% +

As Pegasus alluded to, Iran_N is part of the heritage of NW South Asians via both BMAC and Neolithic farmers. NW South Asian biradaris have more Iran_N than they do AASI, hence they are known for being the hairiest and as you have mentioned the South and particularly East Indians and Nepalis (non-Khas Brahmins) have the least facial hair due to both AASI and E Asian ancestry (NE Asian and SE Asian Munda).

This might be due to the fact that the NW was part of a broader Iranian/SC Asian grassland, again referring to Pegasus, with spreads of genetically similar Iran_N farmers domesticating Zebu etc leading to similar civilizations like the BMAC, IVC etc

Exceptions among the ENA peoples exist such as facial hair seen in Australian Aborigines and Papuans and even the Ainu people

As I mentioned earlier, the Narasimhan paper suggests that Iran_N came even later than Austro-Asiatic migrants from SE Asia in Eastern India, and only arrived within the last 5k years in peninsular and Eastern India

This is reflected by the fact that facial/body hair is lower in the South (except the Konkan and coastal Maharashtra due to IVC contact zone and North Indian migrants to South India) and East India (except migrants from the more western areas of the Indo-Aryan belt).

Steppe was partially EHG which itself is significantly ANE described as being of 'Mongoloid' phenotype. With the WHG mix I'd assume something like what the Saami/Karelian people look like; not particularly hairy

redifflal
07-20-2018, 01:16 AM
Iran_N correlates with hairiness more than Steppe does.

The pictures you posted are of people with low Iran_N overall, South and East Indians are low Iran_N compared to the NW and Gedrosia. Paniya and the scheduled caste temple drummers are about 25-35% Iran_N compared to Baloch/Brahui who are probably 70% +

Steppe was partially EHG which itself is significantly ANE described as being of 'Mongoloid' phenotype. With the WHG mix I'd assume something like what the Saami/Karelian people look like

Do Iranians have high Iran_N btw. Is it higher or lower percentages than NW south Asians? You never answered me about the nature of OOA into India btw. Like we know ENA enters southeast Asia according to the Hoabinhan aDNA study you posted from Razib's blog. Was it also ENA on the way in from the west?

bmoney
07-20-2018, 01:34 AM
Gujjus and Punjabis are the hairiest. Marwaris not so much. Interesting why that happens.

Case and point, Iran_N fam

Im being pseudoscientific here but I think Marwaris and Central Indian Baniyas have similar genetics, higher AASI, higher Munda, average steppe

bmoney
07-20-2018, 01:38 AM
Do Iranians have high Iran_N btw. Is it higher or lower percentages than NW south Asians? You never answered me about the nature of OOA into India btw. Like we know ENA enters southeast Asia according to the Hoabinhan aDNA study you posted from Razib's blog. Was it also ENA on the way in from the west?

Sorry about that.

I don't know about much about AASI, no one does, we have no ancient samples.

As soon as any AASI research comes out im going to jump on it like nobodies business, definitely keeping an eye out

Modern Iranians do not have as much Iran_N as the Gedrosians and have more West Asian mix via more recent Levant farmer ancestry (Iran_Chl)

Overall they are more Basal Eurasian than NW South Asians due to the additional Levant farmer mix via Chl so more hairier I would say as they don't have the high ANE levels seen in South Asia

redifflal
07-20-2018, 01:53 AM
Sorry about that.

I don't know about much about AASI, no one does, we have no ancient samples.

As soon as any AASI research comes out im going to jump on it like nobodies business, definitely keeping an eye out

Modern Iranians do not have as much Iran_N as the Gedrosians and have more West Asian mix via more recent Levant farmer ancestry (Iran_Chl)

Overall they are more Basal Eurasian than NW South Asians due to the additional Levant farmer mix via Chl so more hairier I would say as they don't have the high ANE levels seen in South Asia

I always wonder about the first idiot that mated with a Neanderthal lol. Also how the heck did the half Neanderthals get a chance to mate on? My idea of humans back then is tribalness to a degree we can't fathom. You know the Jarawas have been killing all the half Indian babies resulting from Indian male Jarawa female unions. Chances of "passing" is negligible.

Are you saying the hairy gene is basically correlated to hanging around in Neanderthalistan? It seems like in Eurasia hairiness and Neanderthal percentage decrease away with increasing distance from this Iran/nw subcontinent area.

bmoney
07-20-2018, 01:56 AM
Also wanted to add that by the time Steppe tribes came to South Asia, it would have been quite diluted by Iranian and Kelteminar ancestry in the BMAC, and ultimately would have brought additional Iranian ancestry if anything to North and NW India

In a similar vein I can almost guarantee WB Brahmins have higher Iran_N ancestry than Bengalis from Bangladesh due to the local admixture steppe tribes picked up from Central Asia on their way in to South Asia

bmoney
07-20-2018, 02:10 AM
I always wonder about the first idiot that mated with a Neanderthal lol. Also how the heck did the half Neanderthals get a chance to mate on? My idea of humans back then is tribalness to a degree we can't fathom. You know the Jarawas have been killing all the half Indian babies resulting from Indian male Jarawa female unions. Chances of "passing" is negligible.

Are you saying the hairy gene is basically correlated to hanging around in Neanderthalistan? It seems like in Eurasia hairiness and Neanderthal percentage decrease away with increasing distance from this Iran/nw subcontinent area.

Not sure, but Iran_N definitely mixed with AASI in a big way until the caste system (pre-Steppe probably) put a sharp break on all the hanky panky, they couldnt resist that AASI booty.

I'm not sure how hairiness survived in certain ancestral groups, selection I guess as with everything, though its not selected for like lactase persistence and fair skin in modern pops. It also doesn't seem to be a pre-OOA trait, which makes sense as its not adaptive in the heat of SSA

So far the only correlations with hairiness I've seen are the Villabruna/WHG type peaking in Basques and the Basal Eurasian/Natufian ancestry peaking in SW Asians

MonkeyDLuffy
07-20-2018, 02:12 AM
Not sure, but Iran_N definitely mixed with AASI in a big way until the caste system (pre-Steppe probably) put a sharp break on all the hanky panky, couldnt resist that AASI booty.

I'm not sure how hairiness survived in certain ancestral groups, selection I guess as with everything, though its not selected for like Lactase persistence and fair skin. It doesn't seem to be a pre-OOA trait

So far the only correlations with hairiness I've seen are the Villabruna/WHG type peaking in Basques and the Basal Eurasian/Natufian ancestry peaking in SW Asians

Ayyyyy my term is getting popular.

bmoney
07-20-2018, 02:26 AM
I really enjoyed this video as it came up in related videos off the above one. The beats are hypnotic. I doubt people from these backgrounds would be vain enough to shave or trim their body hairs.
I would like to visit Kerala just to witness this festival. I visited Sri Lanka once and was expecting a similar beat style as these Kerala videos but it was more eastern Indian style.

You guys might think this is trippy like rest of my concepts but I genuinely believe rhythm also comes to people in different manners through their genes. People talk of African drumming but if you start learning about it, there is specific patterns and cycles associated with particular tribes alone and a person knows another person's identity just off the beats they play. We saw Iceland team fans doing the Viking clap during the world cup lol. People make fun of whites for lack of rhythm but they are being judged on an African quality scale, there is a different rhythm that resonates with whites and they probably don't see eye to eye regarding what is best rhythm. Indian people also have very uniquely particular rhythms and this also is different area to area. You can hear beats from Punjab that go back to harvest festivals but they are very very different from above Kerala beats, which are very different from eastern India below. Ours are more slow to build up to start introducing innovations while playing, it is like you're allowed more time to get captured into it.


I agree, some level of epigenetic changes associated with location and ancestry are guaranteed to affect things like rhythm, food preference etc

Kerala is AASI central, Bengal AASI + Munda + NE Asia, and Punjab Iran_N central, it might have something to do with preferred rhythms etc and other things like preferred food

bmoney
07-20-2018, 02:27 AM
Ayyyyy my term is getting popular.

Copyright MDL 2017

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 02:29 AM
Its actually funny you though I would know someone from that far in punjab. My circle of people I know IRL doesn't go much beyond Gujrat neighbour districts from all sides, that's as far as our family have any relations/rishtedars. Rest I only have seen on tv and internet.

I thought you may know someone from Faisalabad, like they married into the khandan or something. I should travel more in Northern Punjab. I've only been to to Sialkot once, and I've never been to Gujarat.

midichlorian
07-20-2018, 04:33 AM
24745


If someone could tell me how I could or they could delete this pic in the next few days that'd be great. My dad hates having his pictures online and has one of the smallest digital footprints I've seen of anyone in 2018 even for a late-gen boomer lol.

We are phenotypically different. Idk where it comes from. I do look more like my mum than dad. I could post her as well after this one has been scrutinized for Iran_N and what not.

prashantvaidwan
07-20-2018, 04:44 AM
I thought you may know someone from Faisalabad, like they married into the khandan or something. I should travel more in Northern Punjab. I've only been to to Sialkot once, and I've never been to Gujarat.
khana, hina rabbani khar is also from multan..she is a jatt..right?24746

prashantvaidwan
07-20-2018, 04:53 AM
LOL at least I got the Rajput part.... LMAO...
No more guessing for me for a week!
Not so long..few more from multans...guess2474724748247492475024751

misanthropy
07-20-2018, 05:12 AM
Regarding the hairyness/back hair discussion, just a tidbit to add that 23andme says I have a neanderthal variant associated with having less back hair and itís true, I donít have much back hair in general - only thinly scattered in certain parts like near the shoulders and lower back.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 05:16 AM
khana, hina rabbani khar is also from multan..she is a jatt..right?

Yes she is. The Khars are the most powerful Jatt family in Southern Punjab and they are my family's mortal enemies LOL.
It is not safe for me to travel in their area, nor is it safe for them to travel in my area.

She is from from the same district as me, Muzaffargarh; this is to the west of Multan. Their HQ is the town of Sanawan, which is right on the bank of the Indus just south of Kot Addu. This is the area that flooded badly in the Pakistan floods.

surbakhunWeesste
07-20-2018, 05:32 AM
I am a little lighter than my Father and Uncles, but I look very much like them. In Muzaffargarh everyone in the bazaar can tell by looking at me I'm from such and such tribe and family. If I were clean-shaven I may stand out. I think most people can tell I'm mostly Baloch. My family consider me to look very Baloch, certainly compared to my siblings. I do not look anything like my Kashmiri, or Kho/Uzbek side, though I may have some features pulled that way (like the shape of my eyes). And that probably gives me a very pan-Pakistani face. Outside of Southern Punjab sometimes people think I'm from the far North or I'm Pashtun, but not very often. Most Indians think I'm Punjabi. In Lahore or Islamabad, no one asks where I'm from. The only real thing that stands out the most about me is my nose, it is unusual for anywhere in Pakistan, and not like my parents or grandparents. Most Baloch and Saraiki and Sindhi men are considerably darker-skinned than everyone from the North, so that is probably the most surprising thing for people if I say I am from Muzaffargarh.

I believe you are right about phenotypes with Gujarat. I think many of the women of my family share lots of features with Muslim Gujaratis that I've met in Karachi.

I'm going to remove these pics pretty quickly:



In my opinion, you will see the phenotypes of the men and women of this area go Southeast rather than Northeast. You can see they all have the nose bump thing, which I don't. [There are 2 noses in the paternal family, a long sharp nose with the bump, or a short stout pudgy nose. Also, when a kid is born they wrap their heads (like some Pashtuns do) and pull their nose to shape them as a kid is growing. A beautiful nose culturally is like an "eagle". Some of my cousins' mothers did that, some didn't. My mother didn't because her mother didn't due to the obvious fact that she isn't from these parts. But.... it's a big factor in telling people in the region apart, because of the pervasive practice of nose-shaping. It didn't happen with my father either since his mom is Kashmiri.]

Cousin in 2nd picture is whose father is most unmixed in my family (and whose kit I lost!) Her mother is Almani Baloch, so she is probably the most Baloch of all my cousins. She is what I consider many Baloch women to look like (irrespective of skin color, that can vary wildly, the features are what stay consistent).

Also, I'm dumb... 3rd cousins wife, is my 3rd cousin.... she gained weight... didn't recognize her at first LMAO... she would murder me. She is Baloch.

Damn, you know this, I am surprised. My mum has a small straight nose like her mother and when I was born I had a nose like hers! but then my freaking paternal side 'taunted' her telling her that I will take the nose shape after her eventually and it was unlikely for my paternal side, she freaked out for whatever reason and always pulled my nose every day. I wanted her nose ugh, but I ended up having the stereotypical 'eagle' nose of my ethnic group, it ain't huge but I hate the hump sometimes,I was very close contemplating a nose Lmfao, but it grew on me and it's my pride huehuehuehue.

bmoney
07-20-2018, 06:05 AM
If someone could tell me how I could or they could delete this pic in the next few days that'd be great. My dad hates having his pictures online and has one of the smallest digital footprints I've seen of anyone in 2018 even for a late-gen boomer lol.

We are phenotypically different. Idk where it comes from. I do look more like my mum than dad. I could post her as well after this one has been scrutinized for Iran_N and what not.

You guys look very different, shows you the range of South Asian phenotypes

Whichever ancestral component decides to come to the phenotype party is how it works in a mixed pop like South Asians

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 06:21 AM
Damn, you know this, I am surprised. My mum has a small straight nose like her mother and when I was born I had a nose like hers! but then my freaking paternal side 'taunted' her telling her that I will take the nose shape after her eventually and it was unlikely for my paternal side, she freaked out for whatever reason and always pulled my nose every day. I wanted her nose ugh, but I ended up having the stereotypical 'eagle' nose of my ethnic group, it ain't huge but I hate the hump sometimes,I was very close contemplating a nose Lmfao, but it grew on me and it's my pride huehuehuehue.

I didn't know Pashtuns pull the nose, I just know some wrap and shape the heads because of familiarity with culture of DI Khan and Bannu. Saraiki-Pashtuns pull the nose, but I thought that was influence of local culture. Locally, it is cultural to do both -- our mothers pull our noses and wrap our heads. It didn't happen to my mother or father because their mothers weren't local. This practice is unique to very few districts bordering the Indus, and within Punjab it is almost exclusively associated with my district, where it is the norm. Though I have seen Multani Pashtuns pull the nose, and some Muhajir families as well. It might all be a unique influence from Pashtun culture. Whatever the background, it is just super super common in my district, and is practiced by all ethnic groups -- Jatt, Gujjar, Baloch, whatever.

surbakhunWeesste
07-20-2018, 06:24 AM
I didn't know Pashtuns pull the nose, I just know some wrap and shape the heads because of familiarity with culture of DI Khan and Bannu. Saraiki-Pashtuns pull the nose, but I thought that was influence of local culture. Locally, it is cultural to do both -- our mothers pull our noses and wrap our heads. It didn't happen to my mother or father because their mothers weren't local. This practice is unique to very few districts bordering the Indus, and within Punjab it is almost exclusively associated with my district, where it is the norm. Though I have seen Multani Pashtuns pull the nose, and some Muhajir families as well. It might all be a unique influence from Pashtun culture. Whatever the background, it is just super super common in my town.

Your area is closer to Quetta and the Pashtuns there, we have many similar traditions than say Pashtuns from Peshawar or Kabul.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 06:32 AM
If someone could tell me how I could or they could delete this pic in the next few days that'd be great. My dad hates having his pictures online and has one of the smallest digital footprints I've seen of anyone in 2018 even for a late-gen boomer lol.

We are phenotypically different. Idk where it comes from. I do look more like my mum than dad. I could post her as well after this one has been scrutinized for Iran_N and what not.

I can delete it for you when you want me to. Just let me know when.

midichlorian
07-20-2018, 06:36 AM
After taking an anthropological course on Central Asia in uni where the focus was on Afghanistan, I continue to wonder why on Earth Afghanistan is considered South Asia even from an ethnic, linguistic, cultural standpoint. I know they like Shah Rukh Khan there, but like how is it not fully considered Central Asia? I know it's a conduit for East and West, but so was all of Central Asia really. Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Bhutan are South Asia.

purohit
07-20-2018, 06:57 AM
Gujjus and Punjabis are the hairiest. Marwaris not so much. Interesting why that happens.

Which marwari?. Bro I am marwari and in marwar people without chest hair are considered evil.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 07:00 AM
^^ I LOLed so hard.

Lollybolly
07-20-2018, 08:26 AM
Hi guys!

I don't know if you'd be willing to do this but I always wondered how genotype and phenotype are linked, especially in South Asian which is a really really diverse subcontinent. So, I am wondering if any of you would be willing to post a picture of themselves along with their results (or a link to their results in other threads) in order to appreciate the diversity of South Asians!

Reza
07-20-2018, 08:35 AM
I didn't know Pashtuns pull the nose, I just know some wrap and shape the heads because of familiarity with culture of DI Khan and Bannu. Saraiki-Pashtuns pull the nose, but I thought that was influence of local culture. Locally, it is cultural to do both -- our mothers pull our noses and wrap our heads. It didn't happen to my mother or father because their mothers weren't local. This practice is unique to very few districts bordering the Indus, and within Punjab it is almost exclusively associated with my district, where it is the norm. Though I have seen Multani Pashtuns pull the nose, and some Muhajir families as well. It might all be a unique influence from Pashtun culture. Whatever the background, it is just super super common in my district, and is practiced by all ethnic groups -- Jatt, Gujjar, Baloch, whatever.

That's funny as we have the nose pulling thing in our local culture too. In the belief that grandmothers can overcome the baby's genetics and mould the nose into a thin, long and straight shape.

purohit
07-20-2018, 10:00 AM
Owd bhi bahut ajeeb bimari hai. apne se kaalo se khud ko alag dikhane ki koshis karte hai. Aur apne se goro ke jabardasti gale padte hai. Ye mahamaari dakshin asia se lekar dakshin europe tak faili hui hai. ये एक असाध्य रोग है।

pegasus
07-20-2018, 11:01 AM
After taking an anthropological course on Central Asia in uni where the focus was on Afghanistan, I continue to wonder why on Earth Afghanistan is considered South Asia even from an ethnic, linguistic, cultural standpoint. I know they like Shah Rukh Khan there, but like how is it not fully considered Central Asia? I know it's a conduit for East and West, but so was all of Central Asia really. Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Bhutan are South Asia.

The Durrand Line is not a magic marker, because West of the Indus, extending into the Pamirs you have tens of millions of people who share a strong cultural continuity with Afghans, in particular Afghan Pashtuns. Contemporary Afghanistan is definitely Persian culturally but depending on the region they are unique cultural accretions. Its not a Central Asian country in the sense that it occupies a vector of space which is connected with Central Asia, Eastern Iran and large swathes of Western Pakistan, South Central Asia is more apt to say . Even within the country there is a lot of diversity, Herat and Jalalabad are examples , one is very Iranian like and the other well looks like a Pakistani city. From a historical and geopolitical view though , I would most definitely place it in South Asia , as massive cultural shifts and demic diffusions have clearly emanated out of there and have had a profound impact on the region spanning the Indus and Western Gangetic plains. If your understanding is that knowing who Shah Rukh Khan is what connects an Afghan with South Asia, thats one piss poor Anthropology course you took.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-20-2018, 01:21 PM
That's funny as we have the nose pulling thing in our local culture too. In the belief that grandmothers can overcome the baby's genetics and mould the nose into a thin, long and straight shape.

We do that too, my mom did it on me and my brother lol.

prashantvaidwan
07-20-2018, 02:22 PM
Don't confuse Unionists with noble Bacha Khan. Unlike Bacha Khan party, unionists were not pro Congress. Unionists was muslim dominated pro British secular party from western punjab. They came in to being to represent interest of agriculturists. They also made British pass discriminatory law against transfer of land between certain castes/tribes which mostly effected hindu khatri moneylenders who got land when loan couldn't be payed back. British then toke away land from moneylenders and redistributed to their original owners.

But by early 40's Muslim League islamic card was getting more and more attraction because of what was happening in rest of colony. Unionist leader Tiwana was not against Pakistan but also didn't want to alienate sikhs and hindu friends in punjab which is what Muslim League had asked him to do. After infamous 1946 hindu-muslim riots in far away Kolkota, many Unionists completely turned in to what we call lotas in Pakistan and joined Jinnah ML. And those unionists who didn't join were known as anti-Pakistan and kept outside circle of power in coming years. Basically Unionists interests were limited to punjab. Bacha Khan wanted to remain with India but not pashtuns, once islamic card was played and only option on ballot vote was either hindu India or muslim Pakistan, they voted for Pakistan.

.
One of the biggest name in unionist part was Chaudhary choturam..a Hindu jat from present day Haryana and East Punjab of before independence. All the farming communities, especially jatts, irrespective of religion had high regards for him. So saying it a party of only West Punjab does not sound fit. It was dominated by Muslims but Hindu and sikh farmers from East Punjab also had huge participation.

RougeS
07-20-2018, 02:41 PM
That's funny as we have the nose pulling thing in our local culture too. In the belief that grandmothers can overcome the baby's genetics and mould the nose into a thin, long and straight shape.
Reshaping nose isnít heard much in our community but I have been complaining to my mother for years for not reshaping mine.Some do try lengthening the eyelashes of baby tho, while some reshape hairlines to avoid widowís peak.

bol_nat
07-20-2018, 03:11 PM
Gujarati khoja are very similar to memons genetically, you can google how they look. They have range of looks. Only famous Pakistani Ismael Khoja I know of is Hoodboy.

Lollybolly
07-20-2018, 03:23 PM
Reshaping nose isnít heard much in our community but I have been complaining to my mother for years for not reshaping mine.Some do try lengthening the eyelashes of baby tho, while some reshape hairlines to avoid widowís peak.

I don't understand the obsession with the nose tho. Why isn't a round nose considered pretty? I have a thin and straight nose and I don't understand the deal with this

poi
07-20-2018, 03:30 PM
I don't understand the obsession with the nose tho. Why isn't a round nose considered pretty? I have a thin and straight nose and I don't understand the deal with this

Among Nepali Brahmins the stereotype (negative) is long nose. It borders on racism lol.

https://m.imgur.com/VF4rZp3?r

Lollybolly
07-20-2018, 03:33 PM
I think you can easily pass in many West Asian countries. Are you a lohana from gujrat? What are your Harappa aDNA results?

I am a Gujrati khoja however I just learned that my grandmother from my mother's side was Pakistani! And yes, I often get the "Are you Iranian", "Do you speak Farsi or arabic?". Often mistaken for Lebanese, Caucasian, Iranian/Pakistani mix + sometimes mediterranean. My results:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.35
2 S-Indian 26.66
3 Caucasian 16.98
4 NE-Euro 10.6
5 American 2.34
6 Siberian 1.87
7 SW-Asian 1.68
8 E-African 0.19
9 Pygmy 0.18
10 Papuan 0.15

Lollybolly
07-20-2018, 03:35 PM
Among Nepali Brahmins the stereotype (negative) is long nose. It borders on racism lol.

https://m.imgur.com/VF4rZp3?r

That's sad to hear :( People should start embracing their features! Long/straight and round/flat noses are both pretty in their own way!

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 03:40 PM
Among Nepali Brahmins the stereotype (negative) is long nose. It borders on racism lol.

https://m.imgur.com/VF4rZp3?r

Having higher nose bridge like the Bahuns and caucasoids is the most sort out plastic surgery in rich East Asian nations with mongoloid population. Only in Nepal the mongoloids consider Bahun like nose as something negative.

poi
07-20-2018, 03:42 PM
Khana/Reza - Can we move all phenotype discussions to this epic thread: চেহারাمنهنचेहराముఖంمخமுகம்چہرہਚਿਹਰਾ ?

Lollybolly
07-20-2018, 03:45 PM
Having higher nose bridge like the Bahuns and caucasoids is the most sort out plastic surgery in rich East Asian nations with mongoloid population. Only in Nepal the mongoloids consider Bahun like nose as something negative.

Seems like people are never happy with what they have lol

poi
07-20-2018, 03:54 PM
Hi guys!

I don't know if you'd be willing to do this but I always wondered how genotype and phenotype are linked, especially in South Asian which is a really really diverse subcontinent. So, I am wondering if any of you would be willing to post a picture of themselves along with their results (or a link to their results in other threads) in order to appreciate the diversity of South Asians!

Phenotype is definitely linked(for the most part) to the macro genetic level such as WestEurasian-EastEurasian, Eurasian-SSA, WestAsian-EastAsian, but there is no way micro genetic levels(all made up based on randomly found ancient DNA) can be confidently linked.

Keep in mind that we have 10 million SNP markers and as low as 2 SNPs determine your skin complexion. And handful of SNPs determine your eyes and hair colors. Other phenotypes like nose, eyelashes, cheekbones, face length, etc play major part in the looks and nobody, to my knowledge, knows what handful of markers are present to determine those.

The best analogy I can find is that you have a blender and you have added apples, banana, walnuts, yogurt, milk, sugar, chia seeds, etc. After blending it for 30 seconds, you will have a roughly consistent smoothie. Although each glass from that blender are made up of same ingredients, but -- randomly -- one glass might have a few more chia seeds and larger chunks of walnuts. Another glass can have more apple since the blender could not randomize everything.

Since phenotypes are so dependent on small markers(6 out of 10 million) and those markers can appear(assuming ancestral components are present) at random, you cannot go beyond the macroscopic level.

Hopefully I did not go into the nonsense here. I keep myself sane by saying we're just a result of periodic blending of ingredients in the last 40 thousand years. South Asians, ignoring the isolated tribals, have same "components" at different proportions.

passion
07-20-2018, 03:58 PM
I think Phenotype does correlate with genotype at group level

Reza
07-20-2018, 06:53 PM
Thread closed for tidying up and further review.

Please refer to the forum rules for reference.

The quality of the threads lately has massively deteriorated and posts are devoid of substance and quality. Not really befitting this forum.

midichlorian
07-20-2018, 08:25 PM
In b4 shit show and close

surbakhunWeesste
07-20-2018, 08:45 PM
I think Phenotype does correlate with genotype at group level

It surely does in a massive level, or else it's defying Science, perhaps phenotypes are sorcerer's charm?

Traits are selected(environment plays a role, along with nutrition amongst other factors), on the macro and micro levels.

bol_nat
07-20-2018, 08:53 PM
I remember another famous Ismael Khoja, Jinnah. He likely also had Iranian ancestry.

Reza
07-20-2018, 10:00 PM
Thread is being reopened... Posts from last couple of days have been removed if a) offensive b) political c) pseudoscientific d) ethnicity guessing and classification. I haven't gone right through to the start of the thread but I hope this suffices for now.

We should be able to have a civil discussion about South asian phenotype without this thread turning into an ethnoreligious flame war or a crass thread re photo classifications.

Please refer to here (https://anthrogenica.com/faq.php) for the forum rules. It's a bit of a grey area so please refer to section 3 for the specific terms of service.

There is a separate thread for posting your own photos, please try to stick to that.

Any posts devoid of substance will be deleted.

Censored
07-20-2018, 10:36 PM
After taking an anthropological course on Central Asia in uni where the focus was on Afghanistan, I continue to wonder why on Earth Afghanistan is considered South Asia even from an ethnic, linguistic, cultural standpoint. I know they like Shah Rukh Khan there, but like how is it not fully considered Central Asia? I know it's a conduit for East and West, but so was all of Central Asia really. Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Bhutan are South Asia.

Biggest reason is because of the Pashtun presence there. The rest of the ethnicities-Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara, etc. are pretty Central Asian like but Pashtuns are complicated. They, along with Baloch are at the extreme edge of what most would consider South Asian but not quite central or west Asian. There are also twice as many Pashtuns in Pakistan as in Afghanistan, and Pakistan is unambiguously considered South Asia. The heavy Pashtun character of Afghanistan, and the huge number of Pashtuns in Pakistan, with which they have very strong ties, mean that Afghanistan is pulled a bit closer to South Asia in an ethnocultural sense than Central Asia. Now if Afghanistan was just Tajik/Hazara/Uzbek, then there would be a stronger case.

Also, geographically Afghanistan dips further South than all other Central Asian countries, and it was never part of the USSR like other CA countries either. So yeah geographic, cultural, and political factors are taken into account.

bmoney
07-20-2018, 11:17 PM
Among Nepali Brahmins the stereotype (negative) is long nose. It borders on racism lol.

https://m.imgur.com/VF4rZp3?r

LMAO thats great

Must be the TB resentment

Damn i missed all the joocy posts

MonkeyDLuffy
07-20-2018, 11:20 PM
LMAO thats great

Must be the TB resentment

Damn i missed all the joocy posts

There is still one left, it's the second threat I've received on a forum, but kind of extreme. Hopefully we can move away from it.

pegasus
07-20-2018, 11:28 PM
I knew it was coming from you..lol..I bet you would not have visited a single jat village in your entire life. North central india?...central UP?.... regionally, most of jat inhabited area is part of north west..and even in that on an average jats stand out their neighboring population....you did not even say they lie between north central and north-west ..is there anything personal against jats? ...lol.. they don't look very exotic despite that high steppe but they are also not like north central indians or with that pan SA look. They are distinct. 24733I have posted another photo for you apart from the two in previous posts...normal rural folks..now tell me how do they look like UP walas?
As far as that pan SA look is concerned that can be spotted even in the deep north west and among all the castes..so you can not just cherry picks. it mean nothing. By the way, how many jats have you met in your entire life... 15-20?

LOL one of my best friends is a Jat Sikh girl, I am fully aware of the variation and your not the first to constantly post beefed up wrestlers and kabbadi players rolled into this romanticized storied image, there was a guy exactly like you on various Anthro forums, other members will know who I am talking about. You should read what I wrote , I said they are generally more robust and taller but they look like other Northern Indians. Also body building is more nurture vs nature. Also my assessment is not unique it pretty much matches what Monkey says and he is from that region. Also from my observation the ones extolling Jats are usually Jats themselves

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 11:32 PM
Khana/Reza - Can we move all phenotype discussions to this epic thread: চেহারাمنهنचेहराముఖంمخமுகம்چہرہਚਿਹਰਾ ?

That's where it's all supposed to be.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 11:33 PM
There is still one left, it's the second threat I've received on a forum, but kind of extreme. Hopefully we can move away from it.

I believe I deleted it. If you see any posts, message me the post#. Reza was doing this all from his phone, he might have missed somethings. I'm going through with a fine-tooth comb.

Censored
07-20-2018, 11:37 PM
I believe I deleted it. If you see any posts, message me the post#. Reza was doing this all from his phone, he might have missed somethings. I'm going through with a fine-tooth comb.

Check page 20.

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 11:40 PM
Can you give me post# or link, because I'm a mod, my page numbers are different from the default

Censored
07-20-2018, 11:42 PM
Can you give me post# or link, because I'm a mod, my page numbers are different from the default

it is 199

pegasus
07-20-2018, 11:58 PM
Kohistanis look similar to Chitralis.

Yes they are but they are far more conservative and backward there was a big documentary on a family honor killing there, where family members were killed for dancing on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoPXW8Qm8U8&t=241s


Yes they look like Kalash/Nuristanis to me

bol_nat
07-21-2018, 12:39 AM
Yes they are but they are far more conservative and backward there was a big documentary on a family honor killing there, where family members were killed for dancing on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoPXW8Qm8U8&t=241s


Yes they look like Kalash/Nuristanis to me

Yes I found about this few years ago. For long time I didn't know they were dardic speakers.

Sapporo
07-21-2018, 12:39 AM
Yes they are but they are far more conservative and backward there was a big documentary on a family honor killing there, where family members were killed for dancing on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoPXW8Qm8U8&t=241s


Yes they look like Kalash/Nuristanis to me

@khana

Did you upload the individual Kohistani data? Based on your PCA, I presume they clustered in a cline near Punjabi Gujjars, other NW South Asians and Pakistani Pashtuns. They were unsurprisingly near the top of the rankings for Swat similarity I believe.

bmoney
07-21-2018, 12:41 AM
Yes they are but they are far more conservative and backward there was a big documentary on a family honor killing there, where family members were killed for dancing on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoPXW8Qm8U8&t=241s


Yes they look like Kalash/Nuristanis to me

Sad, and tragic.

But yes the people have a unique look, on the cline from Kashmiris to Pamiri Tajiks I guess. Handsome peoples

khanabadoshi
07-21-2018, 12:44 AM
OK. Guys. I had just woken up and Reza needed relief from his AG shift. We've taken care of some matters. Now I need to shower and do things. So I hope the insanity has ceded.
I have suspended redifflal immediately. It is very likely we will permaban him. I will wait to speak to Reza on this matter.

Keep all the South Asian "guessing" to this thread. Do NOT do that in the "Post your picture" thread of the General Forum -- it is annoying the rest of the forum. This is why I made this thread!
If someone posts there and you want to have a discussion about it -- forward them to this thread and discuss here.

khanabadoshi
07-21-2018, 12:48 AM
@khana

Did you upload the individual Kohistani data? Based on your PCA, I presume they clustered in a cline near Punjabi Gujjars, other NW South Asians and Pakistani Pashtuns. They were unsurprisingly near the top of the rankings for Swat similarity I believe.

I thought I did. But I just checked -- I haven't. Argh... I have so much ish to do.

pnb123
07-21-2018, 01:39 AM
Which marwari?. Bro I am marwari and in marwar people without chest hair are considered evil.

I thought you were brahmin.

bol_nat
07-21-2018, 01:44 AM
What impact did the migration of Pashtuns and Baloch have on the Pakistani Punjabi population? This is rarely discussed. I always thought the Pakistanis will be western or northwestern shifted compared to their Indian counterparts as a result of mingling with Pashtun, Kashmiri, and Baloch as well as the fact that historically the Muslims were more on the west side of the region while Hindus/Sikhs were further east(natural cline). Even if there was a higher proportion of AASI rich groups among the Muslims, it would at least be balanced out by pull from the Pashtun/Kashmiri/Baluch influence.

As in % for pashtuns? Not much. I personally have never met any punjabi speaking pathan in rural areas of north central punjab districts. All are pashto speakers and recent migrants, maybe some as old as 100 years ago but they still speak pashto. Many Kashmiris though over the years. In 1900 census all of pathan population in Punjab up to Delhi was around 250k. Majority of them were concentrated in either south west districts like Mianwali or east punjab up to Delhi. Not much in middle.

They mostly migrated to Lahore after 1947. About 16-17% of Lahore population is of urdu speakers in which likely some are of afghan origin from Delhi, UP etc

MonkeyDLuffy
07-21-2018, 02:19 AM
As in % for pashtuns? Not much. I personally have never met any punjabi speaking pathan in rural areas of north central punjab districts. All are pashto speakers and recent migrants, maybe some as old as 100 years ago but they still speak pashto. Many Kashmiris though over the years. In 1900 census all of pathan population in Punjab up to Delhi was around 250k. Majority of them were concentrated in either south west districts like Mianwali or east punjab up to Delhi. Not much in middle.

They mostly migrated to Lahore after 1947. About 16-17% of Lahore population is of urdu speakers in which likely some are of afghan origin from Delhi, UP etc

Malerkotla and ludhiana still has pathan population, especially in malerkotla where you can still find little to no mixed families. They speak Punjabi as mother tongue but it is the only region in east punjab where farsi is taught in schools.

Varun R
07-21-2018, 02:28 AM
Damn, you know this, I am surprised. My mum has a small straight nose like her mother and when I was born I had a nose like hers! but then my freaking paternal side 'taunted' her telling her that I will take the nose shape after her eventually and it was unlikely for my paternal side, she freaked out for whatever reason and always pulled my nose every day. I wanted her nose ugh, but I ended up having the stereotypical 'eagle' nose of my ethnic group, it ain't huge but I hate the hump sometimes,I was very close contemplating a nose Lmfao, but it grew on me and it's my pride huehuehuehue.

Eagle/ hook-nosed people unite! :beerchug:
I inherited mine from my mom who got it from her father.

prashantvaidwan
07-21-2018, 04:21 AM
LOL one of my best friends is a Jat Sikh girl, I am fully aware of the variation and your not the first to constantly post beefed up wrestlers and kabbadi players rolled into this romanticized storied image, there was a guy exactly like you on various Anthro forums, other members will know who I am talking about. You should read what I wrote , I said they are generally more robust and taller but they look like other Northern Indians. Also body building is more nurture vs nature. Also my assessment is not unique it pretty much matches what Monkey says and he is from that region. Also from my observation the ones extolling Jats are usually Jats themselves
I don't know why you are always iŮ hurry to pounce on any Jatt phenotype discussion and acting as a judge there. I posted few group images and just asked to point that "baniya" and "north central" look, exactly reading what you wrote. And my question to the genomes and anthoprology experts where the hell steppe vanished that makes Haryana jatts north central or baniya type despite living in north West and that elevated steppe. I did not bring those pictures from mars so don't Mark it as a fanciful story or romanticism. I see always a short of show-down here. In Punjab, ramgarhias look down on jatts. They are not educated and bright..and ramgarhia are flying rockets for NASA,..damn to these vile and Barbarian jatts !! These baniya type Haryana Jatt wrestlers have nothing in their genes and they have just nurtured well to themselves for that build.....lol....and yes I googled for multani jatts and even posted the images here..what a bad show for them!!!Ö

prashantvaidwan
07-21-2018, 04:48 AM
It surely does in a massive level, or else it's defying Science, perhaps phenotypes are sorcerer's charm?

Traits are selected(environment plays a role, along with nutrition amongst other factors), on the macro and micro levels.
Yes right, but sometimes it fails the science completely..high steppe jatts of Haryana are srilankan shifted in looks...lol..

prashantvaidwan
07-21-2018, 04:58 AM
I thought you were brahmin.

Probably, a Rajpurohit...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajpurohit

prashantvaidwan
07-21-2018, 05:14 AM
Thread is being reopened... Posts from last couple of days have been removed if a) offensive b) political c) pseudoscientific d) ethnicity guessing and classification. I haven't gone right through to the start of the thread but I hope this suffices for now.

We should be able to have a civil discussion about South asian phenotype without this thread turning into an ethnoreligious flame war or a crass thread re photo classifications.

Please refer to here (https://anthrogenica.com/faq.php) for the forum rules. It's a bit of a grey area so please refer to section 3 for the specific terms of service.

There is a separate thread for posting your own photos, please try to stick to that.

Any posts devoid of substance will be deleted.
Reza, so we can not post our photos or other photos for ethnicity or background guessing..then how we can proceed with phenotype discussion?

khanabadoshi
07-21-2018, 05:25 AM
Reza, so we can not post our photos or other photos for ethnicity or background guessing..then how we can proceed with phenotype discussion?

The guessing stuff is disliked on AG. Posting examples of a region or something, less of a problem.
The thing that we want to avoid is the stuff that happens on other anthroforums, and it is starting to happen here. So we need people to be responsible and mature.
When I made this thread I wrote that it's likely that Reza and I will have to delete it at some point. Use your better judgement. This thread was created for that "gray area".
If we have to clean up this thread again, we are just going to delete it.

Can we talk about phenotypes responsibly? Or present the diversity of a region accurately? If so, then this is the thread for it. If not, then there is no point in having a thread for any of this at all.

purohit
07-21-2018, 05:43 AM
I thought you were brahmin.

I am brahmin. Pushtikar/pushkarna.

surbakhunWeesste
07-21-2018, 05:45 AM
Yes right, but sometimes it fails the science completely..high steppe jatts of Haryana are srilankan shifted in looks...lol..

I don’t think science failed, your assumption that only steppe genes should show up failed.
I have seen srilankans who had caucasoid features but dark skin!
If you also think Afghans like Tajiks and Pashtuns look Uber caucasoid then that’s false as well. Look at Ashraf Ghani, you perhaps don’t know about the groups of Pashtuns but genetically he would score a lot of so called steppe, or check sukriyah barakzai.

That’s why I wrote selection of traits, which is yet to researched more.

prashantvaidwan
07-21-2018, 06:14 AM
I donít think science failed, your assumption that only steppe genes should show up failed.
I have seen srilankans who had caucasoid features but dark skin!
If you also think Afghans like Tajiks and Pashtuns look Uber caucasoid then thatís false as well. Look at Ashraf Ghani, you perhaps donít know about the groups of Pashtuns but genetically he would score a lot of so called steppe, or check sukriyah barakzai.

Thatís why I wrote selection of traits, which is yet to researched more.

I agree but as you stated in another post that at group level it will show up more or less. It's not that a group of high Caucasian ppl but all of them end up looking like average Tamil. My point was if on an average jatts have high steppe than on individual level, someone may look like anyone else in central India or even in south India or srilankan but on a massive or group level, that high steppe should show up somehow. Is it so or not?

pnb123
07-21-2018, 06:23 AM
I don’t think science failed, your assumption that only steppe genes should show up failed.
I have seen srilankans who had caucasoid features but dark skin!
If you also think Afghans like Tajiks and Pashtuns look Uber caucasoid then that’s false as well. Look at Ashraf Ghani, you perhaps don’t know about the groups of Pashtuns but genetically he would score a lot of so called steppe, or check sukriyah barakzai.

That’s why I wrote selection of traits, which is yet to researched more.

Do you think endogamy plays role on determining phenotype? I heard Jats from that region are pretty strict about marriage, and only marry within their own community. Their Steppe levels in on par with Tajik people, yet so much difference in phenotype. I wonder if they would’ve different phenotype if had adapted to colder climates, like Himalayas.

purohit
07-21-2018, 06:24 AM
Why do Brahmins always look thin and frail?

Bro there are 300 brahmin subcastes in india. Which brahmins are you talking about. Brahmins usually are bigger and taller than there surrounding populations except for northwest where they are on par with other general and obcs.
I am a brahmin 127kg 194cm. And I know many like me in my town. All powerlifting records in rajasthan broken by pushkarna brahmins.

khanabadoshi
07-21-2018, 06:27 AM
Why do Brahmins always look thin and frail?

7 Day Suspension. Reza and I are a bit annoyed now. I will use the ban hammer very liberally the next few days.

surbakhunWeesste
07-21-2018, 06:31 AM
I agree but as you stated in another post that at group level it will show up more or less. It's not that a group of high Caucasian ppl but all of them end up looking like average Tamil. My point was if on an average jatts have high steppe than on individual level, someone may look like anyone else in central India or even in south India or srilankan but on a massive or group level, that high steppe should show up somehow. Is it so or not?

I am sorry I am struggling to comprehend but let me try!
You are saying that certain group of jatts look srilankan and show no sign
Of steppe traits?

purohit
07-21-2018, 06:40 AM
Most haryanvi west jaats looks like randeep hooda ashish nehra type. Some(10 to 20%) look like pradeep boora and rahul chaudhary type. Also there is a pradeep narwal and sangram singh type of look is also common.
Rajasthani jaats have a more rajasthani look in them which up haryana jaat lack.

surbakhunWeesste
07-21-2018, 06:56 AM
Do you think endogamy plays role on determining phenotype? I heard Jats from that region are pretty strict about marriage, and only marry within their own community. Their Steppe levels in on par with Tajik people, yet so much difference in phenotype. I wonder if they would’ve different phenotype if had adapted to colder climates, like Himalayas.

Ofc it does. For example, we used to be tribe endogamous and we have tribe specific looks, you guys perhaps can't tell ofc but we ourselves can, not 100% though. Climate plays and important role as well amongst other factors.
I am not Jatt and steppe savvy, someone else can answer you correctly.

Though, Tajiks are culturally and genetically ' iranics', while Jatts aren't. If you geographically scour the area you will notice the shift of phenotypes(generalized), well I do and ofc it's my opinion.

prashantvaidwan
07-21-2018, 08:16 AM
I am sorry I am struggling to comprehend but let me try!
You are saying that certain group of jatts look srilankan and show no sign
Of steppe traits?
Leave it bro, it was a sarcasm not meant for you in the very first post. I agree with you ..

purohit
07-21-2018, 08:26 AM
Leave it bro, it was a sarcasm not meant for you in the very first post. I agree with you ..

Bro nhi bhen ji hai