24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

[AJL]

No -- there are no elephants in the Americas so I cannot see how this is possible. There is however a creation story that a turtle is the base of the world:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/firstnations/earth.html

[parasar]

No -- there are no elephants in the Americas so I cannot see how this is possible. There is however a creation story that a turtle is the base of the world:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/firstnations/earth.html

I believe there were indeed elephants in the Americas.
http://www.delange.org/Copan1/Dsc00150c.jpg
"Stela B.
Giant Elephant Heads?
Some Say That
These People Knew
Of Elephants!" http://www.delange.org/Copan1/Copan1.htm


Or, is it possible that the myth was a mammoth one transferred to elephants. I have been trying to confirm if what German Dziebel has been saying has some potential to it - that we should wait for evidence from ancient DNA showing what he posits, an Americas to Siberia migration of humans. That's when I came across the shared earth diver and turtle-elephants myths.

It also appears now from ancient DNA that mammoths spread from the Americas to Siberia and replaced all prior ones in Siberia.

In a surprising reversal of conventional wisdom, a DNA-based study has revealed that the last of the woolly mammoths—which lived between 40,000 and 4,000 years ago—had roots that were exclusively North American ... Poinar and Régis Debruyne, a postdoctoral research fellow in Poinar's lab, spent the last three years collecting and sampling mammoths over much of their former range in Siberia and North America, extracting DNA and meticulously piecing together, comparing and overlapping hundreds of mammoth specimen using the second largest ancient DNA dataset available. ... it now appears that mammoths established themselves in North America much earlier than presumed, then migrated back to Siberia, and eventually replaced all pre-existing haplotypes of mammoths.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm

[parasar]

Thirteen thousand years ago there were five species of elephants in North America. Could the Asian elephant fulfill the same ecological role that elephants played here 13,000 years ago?http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0817_050817_animal_park_2.html

So it is possible that they were still remembered by the Mayans.

[Joe B]

I believe there were indeed elephants in the Americas.
http://www.delange.org/Copan1/Dsc00150c.jpg
"Stela B.
Giant Elephant Heads?
Some Say That
These People Knew
Of Elephants!" http://www.delange.org/Copan1/Copan1.htm


Or, is it possible that the myth was a mammoth one transferred to elephants. I have been trying to confirm if what German Dziebel has been saying has some potential to it - that we should wait for evidence from ancient DNA showing what he posits, an Americas to Siberia migration of humans. That's when I came across the shared earth diver and turtle-elephants myths.

It also appears now from ancient DNA that mammoths spread from the Americas to Siberia and replaced all prior ones in Siberia.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm

This seems to be a serious case of conflation. Elephants or mammoths? How about mastodons?
Mastodon - wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/MammothVsMastodon.jpg/350px-MammothVsMastodon.jpg
Comparison of Woolly mammoth (L) and American mastodon (R)

wiki - The American mastodon is the most recent and best-known species of the genus. They disappeared from North America as part of a mass extinction of most of the Pleistocene megafauna, widely presumed to have been a result of rapid climate change in North America, as well as the sophistication of stone tool weaponry used by the Clovis hunters which may have caused a gradual attrition of the mastodon population.
The other possiblity is the Columbian mammoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammuthus_columbi)- wikipedia

wiki - In 2011, two 13.000-11.000 year old petroglyphs thought to depict Columbian mammoths were reported at the San Juan River in Utah. Petroglyphs in the Colorado plateau may depict Columbian mammoths, if they are not mastodons instead.No elephants in the Americas.....so far.
It's a real stretch connecting Mayan ruins to the Mal'ta kid.

[parasar]

...
No elephants in the Americas.....so far.
It's a real stretch connecting Mayan ruins to the Mal'ta kid.

Very true, no connection between Mayans and the Mal'ta boy, but how about between the ancestors of the Mayans and the Mal'ta folk?

The mastodon is a possibility. There appears to a mahout - elephant driver - depicted in the sculpture too, as if the elephant were tamed.
Larger image:
http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Maudslay/media3/V1Plate033.jpg

[alan]

So folks, do you have an opinion on whether the Mal'ta boy was an extreme eastern example of R* (lets assume that was his clade as it seems very likely) or was R* an eastern clade in general at that time c. 24000 years ago.

I dont think the archaeology is conclusive. The origin of the Mal'ta boy's culture is not exactly crystal clear. He is a very late example of what is generally known as the middle upper Palaeolithic of Siberia. This culture (if that is the term- perhaps technocomplex is better) goes back to 30000BC or so. If I recall correctly from the oodles of papers I read on Siberian the Palaeolithic a few years ago this culture coincided with a warm phase after a hiatus between it and the early upper palaeolithic of Siberia. How it relates to the European phase of the same period I do not think is very clear. Sometimes it is said to be comparable, other times differences are emphasised. So, I think I would leave it at that -inconclusive for now.

So, do people think that R* was specific to Siberia in this period? Does the U mtDNA point to any interpretation?

Was the Amerindian-west/south Asian autosomal mix typical of R* or was it just a particular mix of the extreme east of its range? It will be strongly speculated that Q probably took the similar Amerindian component east and mixed with east Asians. That could be taken to suggest that R and Q both had a similar background which seems not exactly shocking. However, that still doesnt answer the question as to whether R and Q had this autosomal signature on arrival in east Siberia and adjacent or did they gain this only on arrival. Is there any suggestion that P* may have brought this or is there evidence that contradicts this?

If the R/Q group only acquired the Amerindian aspect of their autosomal DNA in eastern Siberia, then who did they get it from?

If the Mal'ta boy was typical of R* what does that tell us about the percentages of autosomal input this R* group input in Europe and western Asia?

Obviously we do not have the data to answer that but a bit of speculation is fun.

[parasar]

So folks, do you have an opinion on whether the Mal'ta boy was an extreme eastern example of R* (lets assume that was his clade as it seems very likely) or was R* an eastern clade in general at that time c. 24000 years ago.

...

If the R/Q group only acquired the Amerindian aspect of their autosomal DNA in eastern Siberia, then who did they get it from?

If the Mal'ta boy was typical of R* what does that tell us about the percentages of autosomal input this R* group input in Europe and western Asia?

Obviously we do not have the data to answer that but a bit of speculation is fun.

Both. My thinking for the past five years (since Karafet et al 2008) has been that P-R migrated from SE Asia to Europe in the upper Paleolithic. This thought was further was bolstered by the Melanesian/Papuan type mtDNA U2 Kostenki 14. LGM pushed them south and east, but not east of the Baikal.

[Jean M]

We now have more data it seems: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1610-Basal-Haplogroup-R-classification-for-24-000-year-old-individual-%28MA-1%29-from-Mal%92ta&p=20162#post20162

[parasar]

No, just what has been sketchily reported.

Nevertheless, putting it all together - R, U, Negroid/Australoid nasal base, some mongoloid features, etc, makes me think of a number of populations from South Asia. It is no longer the prevalent type in the Indo-Gangetic plains, but still exists all over India and is not to be confused with Tibeto-Burman mongoloids or even the Austro-Asiatic mongoloid type.
...
...




The most prominent component is shown in green and
is otherwise prevalent in South Asia but does also appear in the Caucasus, Near East
or even Europe. The other major genetic component (dark blue) in MA-1 is the one
dominant in contemporary European populations, especially among northern and
northeastern Europeans. The co-presence of the European-blue and South Asian green
in MA-1 can be interpreted as admixture of the two in MA-1 or, alternatively,
MA-1 could represent a proto-western Eurasian prior to the split of Europeans and
South Asians. This analysis cannot differentiate between these two scenarios. Most of
the remaining nearly one third of the MA-1 genome is comprised of the two genetic
components that make up the Native American gene pool (orange and light pink).
Importantly, MA-1 completely lacks the genetic components prevalent in extant East
Asians and Siberians (shown in dark and light yellow, respectively).
pg 52 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf

[parasar]

Population affinities of Neolithic Siberians: A snapshot from prehistoric Lake Baikal
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7446251_Population_affinities_of_Neolithic_Siberia ns_a_snapshot_from_prehistoric_Lake_Baikal


little is known about the population history of the region and whether biological continuity can be demonstrated from around 40,000 years ago to the present
day. Lithic evidence from excavations at the Upper Palaeolithic sites of Mal’ta and Buret’ in the Angara River basin suggests that the earliest inhabitants of the Cis-Baikal region (i.e., north and west of Lake Baikal) had a material culture similar to those of contemporaneous eastern European groups ...

limited osteological evidence (Turner,1987; Ishida and Dodo, 1996) and Palaeolithic artistic representations (Debets, 1951; cited in Okladnikov, 1959, 1964) suggest that the original inhabitants of eastern Siberia including the Cis-Baikal, were East Eurasian in origin.

... 6125 and 4885 B.C. ...

Two N individuals from Lokomotiv and one from Ust’-Ida possessed HVI sequence variants characteristic of haplogroup U5a (16256-16270), a mtDNA cluster which is thought to have West Eurasian origins and an estimated coalescence time of 50 000 years ...

the modern Kets and the Neolithic Kitoi were found to share a single U5a sequence (16256-16270) at frequencies of 5% and 6%, respectively ...

U5a sequences are shared between the two cemetery groups ...

On the basis of similarities in material culture between the Upper Palaeolithic Lake Baikal occupations of Mal’ta and Buret’ with sites from Eastern Europe (i.e., West Eurasia), Okladnikov (1964) proposed that a West Eurasian group inhabited the Lake Baikal region during the Upper Palaeolithic. However, Okladnikov (1964) predicted that the growth of East Eurasian groups in the region eventually resulted in the replacement of these Upper Palaeolithic West Eurasians. Therefore, modern populations in the region of Lake Baikal who have not exchanged genes with Russian groups are expected to have a higher proportion of East Eurasian mtDNA polymorphisms than their western neighbors.

The only definitive non-East Eurasian haplogroup identified in either population is haplogroup U5a...

affinity with an Upper Mongolian Hun cemetery, their matrilineal descendents remained for at least the next four thousand years.

[parasar]

I think this map needs some serious revision. As I had noted in my post above there is just no evidence from India prior to Orsang. Which means India did not participate in the AMH occupation of SE Asia and Australia as the map depicts. This actually has been known from the very beginning when the OoA coastal theory was proposed - that India is a complete blank for AMH in the proposed period of coastal migration.

These same folk who entered India in the Upper Paleolithic also entered Europe, and also E and N Africa. Somewhere in East or SE Asia (cf. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/45/19201 ) we should look for the origins of both M and N. Movement of N was the first one followed by M.
...


There is some support on the above from the Lanka paper if the Lanka Vedda (Balangodese) are considered to be the earliest inhabitants of the subcontinent.
The Vedda of Lanka are 74.66% (R + U). This matches well with the early N finds in upper Eurasia (Europe incld. Kostenki U, Tianyuan B, Afantova Gora R, Mal'ta U).
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v59/n1/fig_tab/jhg2013112t2.html#figure-title

It has been hypothesized that the Vedda was probably the earliest inhabitants of the area ... dated tentatively to 37 000 YBP, were discovered from the cave site, Fahien-lena,8 on the island, with their association with the present-day Vedda people proposed on a comparative anatomical ground ... Vedda population has the lowest proportion of shared haplotypes among their subgroups (63%) indicating their greater genetic diversity among subgroups ... Vedda people had the lowest frequency of haplogroup M (17.33%). It is quite astonishing to see such a lower frequency of M haplogroup in the Vedda population ... This is probably due to the effect of genetic drift in the smaller population of Vedda ... Vedda people ... showed relatively high frequencies of haplogroup R (45.33 ... Haplogroup U was mostly found in Vedda (29.33%) ... Low frequency of M haplogroup and high frequencies of R and U haplogroups were found to be the unique characteristics of Vedda ... All the island populations, except some subgroups of the Vedda, form close genetic affiliations among themselves and with majority of the groups from the mainland suggesting the origin of the majority of the island population on the Indian mainland.

[newtoboard]

So where did the M come from? The Vedda look very South Eurasian. What are their y lineages like?

[parasar]

So where did the M come from? The Vedda look very South Eurasian. What are their y lineages like?

M I think came from East Asia via mailand India to Lanka. As always, there is complete absence of any L(xM, N) line.
I don't recall any Y study on the Vedda, perhaps P, Q, R-M207, R-M479, K*, F*, C etc.

[newtoboard]

M I think came from East Asia via mailand India to Lanka. As always, there is complete absence of any L(xM, N) line.
I don't recall any Y study on the Vedda, perhaps P, Q, R-M207, R-M479, K*, F*, C etc.

That's a real minority view there. What would support that view? There is an absence of L in all of Eurasia minus small amounts in the Near East and maybe Southern Europe which IMO are more linked to the expansion of E out of the upper Nile Delta or slave trade than any OOA event.

[parasar]

That's a real minority view there. What would support that view? There is an absence of L in all of Eurasia minus small amounts in the Near East and maybe Southern Europe which IMO are more linked to the expansion of E out of the upper Nile Delta or slave trade than any OOA event.

1. Human (with AMH jaw) occupation of East Asia and Ocenia is older than that of South Asia. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5953/655.1
2. Calculated age of East Asian M lines is older than South Asian M lines. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5953/655.1
3. There have been reports of potentially divergent pre-M,N lines from Australia. Counterpoint and rebuttal http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftree.bio.ed.ac.uk%2FdownloadPaper .php%3Fid%3D27&ei=bm3pUqSGL-nJsATf3oGIBA&usg=AFQjCNEEtYhNMGWiXECZ9I4CpqwrZgbFRQ

[newtoboard]

1. Human (with AMH jaw) occupation of East Asia and Ocenia is older than that of South Asia. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5953/655.1
2. Calculated age of East Asian M lines is older than South Asian M lines. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5953/655.1
3. There have been reports of potentially divergent pre-M,N lines from Australia. Counterpoint and rebuttal http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftree.bio.ed.ac.uk%2FdownloadPaper .php%3Fid%3D27&ei=bm3pUqSGL-nJsATf3oGIBA&usg=AFQjCNEEtYhNMGWiXECZ9I4CpqwrZgbFRQ


So what migration would have brought M? Obviously Austroasiatics are too late since they are the last group to enter the subcontinent. What y DNA would have accompanied M? I still think M is South Eurasian rather than NE asian. How old are SE Asian M lines

[alan]

Mal'ta/Buret culture is now categorised as late examples of the middle upper palaeolithic culture of south-central Siberia (existed from c. 30000-22000BC) and it appears is no longer thought to have clear links with Europe.


Population affinities of Neolithic Siberians: A snapshot from prehistoric Lake Baikal
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7446251_Population_affinities_of_Neolithic_Siberia ns_a_snapshot_from_prehistoric_Lake_Baikal

[alan]

I thought Macciamo made a good post on this subject

Two weeks ago, Raghavan et al. published a paper on the genome of an Upper Palaeolithic Siberian individual, known as the Mal'ta boy. It is by far the oldest human genome tested to date.

The authors reported that the autosomal admixture of that 24,000-year-old individual was a blend of European, South Asian, Amerindian with a little bit of Papuan. I don't know if anybody mentioned this before, but it strikes me that this particular admixture could in fact be the original source DNA representing descendants of haplogroup MP. What links Europeans and South Asian is essentially haplogroup R. Amerindians are Q and Papuans belong too M.

It has recently been found that haplogroup M fits in between NO and P in the Y-chromosomal phylogeny. In other words, there was once a haplogroup MP, which split into M and P, then P split into Q and R.

Since the Mal'ta boy belongs to R*, it makes sense that his autosomal genes should be closest to the populations with the highest percentages of haplogroup R today, namely (North) Europeans and South Asians. And indeed his genome resembles at 71% that of Europeans and South Asians. The second closest group is Q, which is mostly Amerindians. 26% of his genome matches that of Amerindian. Surely this is something inherited from the common roots of Q and R, which had split from each others only a few millennia before the Mal'ta boy's lifetime.

The Mal'ta boy also shared 4% of similarity with modern Papuans, which may come as a surprise at first, until one realises the close phylogenetic relationship between the dominant Papuan paternal lineage (M) with Q and R. However since the split happened longer ago, the genetic similarity is more limited than with Q. Besides, there is a good chance that modern Papuans only have a small percentage of Eurasian genes themselves, and that the original carriers of Y-haplogroup M intermingled with a lot of other populations on their long journey from Central/North Asia to Papua. It is possible that only a small group of men belonging to haplogroup M came to replace the older native paternal lineages of New Guinea (C-RPS4Y711 and C-P55), just as O replaced them in East Asia and R in South Asia and Europe. Even Q might represent the post-Clovis migration that replaced older lineages (C3 ?) among Amerindians.

So we shouldn't see the Mal'ta boy as a multi-hybrid of European, South Asian and Siberian/Amerindian ethnicities, but rather as an example of the source population which invaded those geographic regions and hybridised with the natives there. It would be interesting to use the Mal'ta boy's genome as a reference population and see how much of modern populations inherited from the original PQR people, instead of looking at it the other way round. There might be a correlation between the percentage of similarity with his autosomal genes and the frequency of haplogroups Q and R in modern populations. Nonetheless I would expect that autosomal DNA got progressively diluted along the way as R people moved into Europe and South Asia, so the maximum percentage of similarity would probably lie between Bactria and Northwest India and in Eastern Europe.

I think the idea that Mal'ta and AG2 are some sort of hybrid or admixed group doesnt really work very well. Siberia was settled very early c. 40000BC or earlier -apparently (according to archaeological evidence) from SW Asia via central Asia. It does not seem likely that they were preceded by any modern humans and it also does not appear likely that they were succeeded before Mal'ta boy lived. There is no archaeological evidence for the idea that is currently being suggested that Siberia and R, Q, P etc came from SE Asia before heading back north and west. I think that is an illusion caused by chance and displacement of populations. Its pretty clear to me that the LGM displaced R2 south into India and I suspect P too. I reckon both were part of a more northerly stream that had passed east through central Asia to south-central Siberia back in P times and some were later displaced south by the LGM in the form of P and R2.

I think the best way of looking at Mal'ta and the modern populations it closest is linked to is to consider a scenario that Mal'ta and AG2 represent extinct north Eurasian groups who were constantly subject to drift. Their origin population was MP and after that period drift kicked in as well as dilution in areas which had older modern human lineages already like south Asia. Drift meant that different fragments of the original MP population's autosomal signal survived in different areas giving the illusion of admixture. I would also say that it is likely that the original MP y lines autosomal signals would be better preserved among the subset (P?, Q, R) who entered Siberia (from the west according to archaeology) entered an previously unsettled area, unlike those who settled in the southernmost fringes of Asia.

The most important point is that I doubt Mal'ta is an admixed group. He and AG2 are best seen as examples of drift from an extinct ancestral north-central Eurasian population, fragments of which ended up in different areas like Europe, the Americans, Papua etc, probably brought by subsets of the MP group - R, Q, P and M.

[newtoboard]

I'm curious as to how you know P and R didn't originate in the South? Maybe not SE Asia but unless you have a time machine it seems kind of early to rule out South Central Asia at this point. As mentioned before geography (and I have done this at times too) and climate are not sufficient enough to determine where a haplogroup originated.

[parasar]

I'm curious as to how you know P and R didn't originate in the South? Maybe not SE Asia but unless you have a time machine it seems kind of early to rule out South Central Asia at this point. As mentioned before geography (and I have done this at times too) and climate are not sufficient enough to determine where a haplogroup originated.

SE Asia or southern India looks more likely.
Once we eliminate Siberia and East Asia components now dominant we see the SE Asia and South India affinities.

[DMXX]

Its pretty clear to me that the LGM displaced R2 south into India and I suspect P too.

Y-DNA P* has been found in Central Asia as well. It's been known to exist there since around 2001 with The Journey of Man by Dr. Wells (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dDXIX-y6aY). He's speaking to a Uyghur or Kazakh(?) who carries Y-DNA P after around 1:15:00. It's clearly P* by how much the good doctor is hyping the result.

[Jean M]

Its pretty clear to me that the LGM displaced R2 south into India and I suspect P too. I reckon both were part of a more northerly stream that had passed east through central Asia to south-central Siberia back in P times and some were later displaced south by the LGM in the form of P and R2.


I'm going for this as well, as it makes sense to me to have Y-DNA R and mtDNA U arrive at Mal'ta by the same route, and U seems to radiate from what I call the Asian crossroads. Of course all could look different when we get more aDNA.

[alan]

I wouldnt think voluntarily ignoring archaeolological and climate/enviromnent dat is very wise when its all we have except the very messed up modern population dna and very few ancient DNA datapoints from that era. Sometimes climate is a very good indicator. Its not always but it can be in the more extreme weather periods when we know what areas were abandoned. I dont have a time machine but I am considering the archaeological record which is as close as we have to one until ancient DNA builds up.

Actually I wasnt ruling out south or mid central Asia. In fact archaeology indicates (my source is 'The Early Upper Palaeolithic Beyond Western Europe' by Brantingham, Kuhn and Kerry) the likely source of the first thrust into south central Siberia in the early upper Palaeolithic as ultimately Levantine and arriving is south-central Siberia by crossing Iran and then through the Turkmenistan etc. Later phases like the middle Upper Palaeolithic of south-central Siberia (as seen at Mal'ta) do not look like they have an external source and are probably a local development from the previous phase. No east to west thrust from Siberia is identified until post-LGM times and even that is unclear.

There is some logic in this in that we know R* and probably Q were in south-central Siberia and adjacent in the LGM and there is no clear indication of new intrusions from SE Asia or south central Asia in that interval. Radiocarbon dating of archaeological sites does indicate a pushing south of human settlement out of north central Asia when it became a desert in the LGM.

So, if there was a broadly west to east sequence of initial modern human early upper Palaelithic settlement passing through Iran through central Asia to south-central Siberia as early as 40000BC then (if it involved the P group) it would have initially involved P and then the R and Q as it progressed east. So, P may have been in the more western parts of the trail which put it in a position where being driven into south-central Asia by the LGM desertification would have been very likely. R and Q appear from ancient DNA to have made it to south-central Siberia where refugia close to Baikal and Altai are strongly suggested by ancient DNA and other considerations. It all makes sense if the P to R and Q sequence was tied up in a geographical west to east wavefront along central Asia into south-central Siberia before the LGM did its worst. There is a sequence of probably refuge areas from the Caspian to Baikal and I think it makes total sense if P and R2, both old enough to be driven south by the LGM, were indeed driven south at that point while other R* and Q elements were further east and therefore are found in ancient DNA during and after the LGM in more eastern refugia in south-central Siberia. It all actually fits rather nicely a wave front where phylogeny and geography correlate starting with P around Iran and west-central Asia and ending with elements of R and Q in the east followed by southward pushing of all of them by the LGM.

R2 is interesting as it shows that SOME R did likely head south with the LGM towards India (R2 is old enough to have beaten the desertifcation of central Asia to head south) while other R elements were located as far east as western Baikal. Why did R2 but not some R* as at Mal'ta or R1* head to India? That answer probably is that unlike R2, R1 may well not be old enough to have beaten the desertification of central Asia to head south and may have been trapped in the steppe tundra belt on its north side. R2 is interesting as it shows that not all R* was likely as far east as Baikal etc before the LGM. Either that or some of it took a long journey west and south rather than go into a more local refugium.

If I had read of any thrust north from south-east Asia etc I would have said. I have no preferred outcome or bias in this.


I'm curious as to how you know P and R didn't originate in the South? Maybe not SE Asia but unless you have a time machine it seems kind of early to rule out South Central Asia at this point. As mentioned before geography (and I have done this at times too) and climate are not sufficient enough to determine where a haplogroup originated.

[newtoboard]

We still don't know if R1 headed south or not. It likely did as there are no old R1 clades in Siberia or North Central Asia.

[alan]

When I said P was displaced south, I dont mean in its entirety. Some may have remained closer to its original position. IF (and I am just giving this my best shot) the archaeological spread of early upper paleolithic sites from Iran through the Stan counties to south-central Siberia (c. 40000-30000BC) was echoed by a wave of branching from P down to R and Q with P predominant more at the western end of this, then P could have reacted to the LGM desertification of the Stan countries in several ways. Some could have made the longer journey south into the Indian subcontinent. Some may have just moved back towards Iran and some may have sat right at the southern edge of the central Asian LGM desert around the Hindu Kush area just south of the desert without making the journey further south into south Asia. The Hindu Kush area had similar ecology to Iran during the LGM and was an option as a regugium for any clade from north central Asia to have reached. It probably deserves more consideration.

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/euras(2.gif


Y-DNA P* has been found in Central Asia as well. It's been known to exist there since around 2001 with The Journey of Man by Dr. Wells (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dDXIX-y6aY). He's speaking to a Uyghur or Kazakh(?) who carries Y-DNA P after around 1:15:00. It's clearly P* by how much the good doctor is hyping the result.

[parasar]

...
... There is no archaeological evidence for the idea that is currently being suggested that Siberia and R, Q, P etc came from SE Asia before heading back north and west. I think that is an illusion caused by chance and displacement of populations ... The most important point is that I doubt Mal'ta is an admixed group. He and AG2 are best seen as examples of drift from an extinct ancestral north-central Eurasian population, fragments of which ended up in different areas like Europe, the Americans, Papua etc, probably brought by subsets of the MP group - R, Q, P and M.

As someone called 'Hector' had posted on Dienekes that would require a significant amount of back and forth on part of R's ancestors. (Please disregard the extraneous comments Hector makes and just follow the logic)


That there are people who would like to believe MP has an origin in Central Asia reveals more about them than about the origin.

It is simply hilarious when you take a look at their next-of-kin and their distribution.

M526 obviously happened in southern Eurasia and then not to offend European sensibilities of some of their descendants it had to make an arduous journey to Central Asia and beget MP. And then M had to travel far to SE Asia or Oceania to beget dark skinned, frizzy haired people...
Isn't that funny?

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/01/brown-skinned-blue-eyed-y-haplogroup-c.html

It is quite simple when you look at it this way. There is no evidence of any kind of modern humans at all anywhere in Europe, Middle East, South and Upper Asia 50000ybp. So the occupation had to happen from somewhere. Only Sub Saharan Africa, SE Asia, and East Asia show modern human presence at that time (S America is also possible according to a few researchers). P just happend to be one of the later arrivals from one of these locations. Of these, SE Asia looks to be the best bet if we go by current MPNOPS distribution. Another would be the Americas as MA-1 shows little to nothing Siberian, East Asian, or West Asian and the closest population to MA-1 is southern Native American such as the Karitiana. But it is unlikely the Americas were populated prior to MA-1.

Plus no one has studied Mal'ta culture in greater depth than Gerasimov, and he believed that their predecessors were SE Asiatic. The cobra like motif at Mal'ta is another point (unless inner asia at that time was much warmer and supported a cobra population).

[alan]

Problem is there may be no old R at all in south central Siberia now but we know for sure there was in 22000BC. So modern population studies have their limitations.

I do agree though that R1 has a sequence of age estimates that currently fall around a date that makes it too close to call if it was old enough to beat the LGM desert of 25000BC onwards. I suspect from some of Michal's and other's SNP calculations that factored in the Mal'ta and Sardinian evidence that the date is very close to the start of the LGM and too close to call. One thing is clear to me - during the LGM you had to either live in the steppe-tundra north of the central Asian desert of in the area south of the desert like Iran, the Hindu Kush etc. I dont think anyone is arguing that R1 went through the mountains into India etc.


We still don't know if R1 headed south or not. It likely did as there are no old R1 clades in Siberia or North Central Asia.

[alan]

MP crossing the whole of Asia simply shows that its entirely possible for it to do just that regardless of direction and origin point. I dont think M should for no apparent reason be weighted as the anchor for MP. Its a lot easier from an archaeological point of view and phylogeny above MP to see MP as part of a west to east wave with M as a stray group who went way beyond the normal range for MP. I dont find it at all odd to think that one group of MP branch, M, may have made it to the SE Asian area via the Russian far east and the Pacific or it could have followed P etc to India and travelled on further east.

I think its wrong for that poster to attribute Eurocentric or racist motives into everyone who disagrees with an east to west scenario. I think people without those kind of biases have taken R in Baikal far from Europe in their stride so they are not going to have an ideological problem if the story was even further east or south-east. Its nothing to do with ideology or biases (well not in my case or most on this site), its just how I see the evidence as best fitting together.


As someone called 'Hector' had posted on Dienekes that would require a significant amount of back and forth on part of R's ancestors. (Please disregard the extraneous comments Hector makes and just follow the logic)


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/01/brown-skinned-blue-eyed-y-haplogroup-c.html

It is quite simple when you look at it this way. There is no evidence of any kind of modern humans at all anywhere in Europe, Middle East, South and Upper Asia 50000ybp. So the occupation had to happen from somewhere. Only Sub Saharan Africa, SE Asia, and East Asia show modern human presence at that time (S America is also possible according to a few researchers). P just happend to be one of the later arrivals from one of these locations. Of these, SE Asia looks to be the best bet if we go by current MPNOPS distribution. Another would be the Americas as MA-1 shows little to nothing Siberian, East Asian, or West Asian and the closest population to MA-1 is southern Native American such as the Karitiana. But it is unlikely the Americas were populated prior to MA-1.

Plus no one has studied Mal'ta culture in greater depth than Gerasimov, and he believed that their predecessors were SE Asiatic. The cobra like motif at Mal'ta is another point (unless inner asia at that time was much warmer and supported a cobra population).

[newtoboard]

Problem is there may be no old R at all in south central Siberia now but we know for sure there was in 22000BC. So modern population studies have their limitations.

I do agree though that R1 has a sequence of age estimates that currently fall around a date that makes it too close to call if it was old enough to beat the LGM desert of 25000BC onwards. I suspect from some of Michal's and other's SNP calculations that factored in the Mal'ta and Sardinian evidence that the date is very close to the start of the LGM and too close to call. One thing is clear to me - during the LGM you had to either live in the steppe-tundra north of the central Asian desert of in the area south of the desert like Iran, the Hindu Kush etc. I dont think anyone is arguing that R1 went through the mountains into India etc.

R1 could have been distributed somewhere between the Zagros and Hindu Kush. We don't know.

- - - Updated - - -


MP crossing the whole of Asia simply shows that its entirely possible for it to do just that regardless of direction and origin point. I dont think M should for no apparent reason be weighted as the anchor for MP. Its a lot easier from an archaeological point of view and phylogeny above MP to see MP as part of a west to east wave with M as a stray group who went way beyond the normal range for MP. I dont find it at all odd to think that one group of MP branch, M, may have made it to the SE Asian area via the Russian far east and the Pacific or it could have followed P etc to India and travelled on further east.

I think its wrong for that poster to attribute Eurocentric or racist motives into everyone who disagrees with an east to west scenario. I think people without those kind of biases have taken R in Baikal far from Europe in their stride so they are not going to have an ideological problem if the story was even further east or south-east. Its nothing to do with ideology or biases (well not in my case or most on this site), its just how I see the evidence as best fitting together.

There isn't any M in South Asia so I find it unlikely M and P moved through South Asia.

There is definitely a bias among some posters with regards to this subject. Not a Eurocentric one but some kind of Northern bias.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd like to see it established if Malta is even R* (in the sense that he is ancestral to R1 and R2) or if he is better described as R3 line which died out (which would explain why there are no old R clades in Siberia today- they were never there in the first place) in which case he represents a South-Central Asian element in the South Siberian gene pool and R1, P and R2 (in that west to east direction) originated in an area between the Zagros and Burma.

- - - Updated - - -

By some posters I didn't mean you Alan. I don't particularly care if a person has a bias anyways. Everybody has them to some degree. A persons argument should be evaluated on its own merits (or lack of) regardless of whatever outlandishly biased views it's owner has.

[alan]

I dont think that poster is being fair at all in attributing motives to people's honest interpretations of how they see the evidence. After all, I think we all agree that at the IJK node that we are back in SW Asia or the Levant and that movement after that node was initially west to east. Its hardly a big ideological deal to anyone sane whether or not MP just was part of an overall west to east wave of IJK or whether it went further east before returning west and north. At the end of the day they were all descendants of the IJK node which was likely SW Asian and their route doesnt change that.

Archaeologically its pretty hard not to see the IJK node as the SW Asian/Levantine origin point of this great second wave of Eurasian settlement. In terms of north central Asia and south Siberia archaeology identifies a spread coming from SW Asia and heading through those areas c. 40000BC. IMO this is most likely to have something to do with P by the time Iran was reached. I could be horribly wrong but that is how I see it.

- - - Updated - - -

I


R1 could have been distributed somewhere between the Zagros and Hindu Kush. We don't know.

- - - Updated - - -



There isn't any M in South Asia so I find it unlikely M and P moved through South Asia.

There is definitely a bias among some posters with regards to this subject. Not a Eurocentric one but some kind of Northern bias.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd like to see it established if Malta is even R* (in the sense that he is ancestral to R1 and R2) or if he is better described as R3 line which died out (which would explain why there are no old R clades in Siberia today- they were never there in the first place) in which case he represents a South-Central Asian element in the South Siberian gene pool and R1, P and R2 (in that west to east direction) originated in an area between the Zagros and Burma.

- - - Updated - - -

By some posters I didn't mean you Alan. I don't particularly care if a person has a bias anyways. Everybody has them to some degree. A persons argument should be evaluated on its own merits (or lack of) regardless of whatever outlandishly biased views it's owner has.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -

[alan]

I believe that people looking at the number of derived SNPs after R in the Mal'ta boy would place him more as a kind of R3 type guy who lived a few thousand years after R1 and R2 had come into existence.

Nevertheless his archaeological cultural context is fairy well known and that culture was pretty well confined to south-central Siberia c. 30000-22000BC. So I think he was probably a descendant of a group of hunters who had been there for at least 8000 years before he lived and probably long before that. The start date of the culture of which Mal'ta boy is the last representative is 30000BC. That is close to the date suggested for R* by recent SNP counting considerations. On that basis I suspect that R came into existence within this culture.

One possible demographic reason as to why the R line took off in this culture was that this middle upper palaeolithic culture (in comparison to its early upper palaeolithic predecessor) saw a climate improvement after a bad patch and this also saw a period of expansion northwards into the river valleys that flow south to north in central Siberia. This is associated with a development and change of hunting/provisioning/settlement tactics.

Maybe that is why from P the period of this culture seems to have produced R*, R1, R2 and R3/Mal'ta as well as Q clades. That might be seen as a bit of a flurry in terms of branching, all probably in the period c. 30-25000BC if Michal's dating is right. That this branching coincides with the period between the appearance of the middle upper palaeolithic south-central Siberian culture with its more expanded range/ a good period of climate etc and terminates at what is essentially the start of the LGM provides as very good context for that flurry of branching. In fact the fit is uncanny.
R1 could have been distributed somewhere between the Zagros and Hindu Kush. We don't know.

- - - Updated - - -



There isn't any M in South Asia so I find it unlikely M and P moved through South Asia.

There is definitely a bias among some posters with regards to this subject. Not a Eurocentric one but some kind of Northern bias.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd like to see it established if Malta is even R* (in the sense that he is ancestral to R1 and R2) or if he is better described as R3 line which died out (which would explain why there are no old R clades in Siberia today- they were never there in the first place) in which case he represents a South-Central Asian element in the South Siberian gene pool and R1, P and R2 (in that west to east direction) originated in an area between the Zagros and Burma.

- - - Updated - - -

By some posters I didn't mean you Alan. I don't particularly care if a person has a bias anyways. Everybody has them to some degree. A persons argument should be evaluated on its own merits (or lack of) regardless of whatever outlandishly biased views it's owner has.

[parasar]

MP crossing the whole of Asia simply shows that its entirely possible for it to do just that regardless of direction and origin point. I dont think M should for no apparent reason be weighted as the anchor for MP. Its a lot easier from an archaeological point of view and phylogeny above MP to see MP as part of a west to east wave with M as a stray group who went way beyond the normal range for MP. I dont find it at all odd to think that one group of MP branch, M, may have made it to the SE Asian area via the Russian far east and the Pacific or it could have followed P etc to India and travelled on further east.

I think its wrong for that poster to attribute Eurocentric or racist motives into everyone who disagrees with an east to west scenario. I think people without those kind of biases have taken R in Baikal far from Europe in their stride so they are not going to have an ideological problem if the story was even further east or south-east. Its nothing to do with ideology or biases (well not in my case or most on this site), its just how I see the evidence as best fitting together.

First MP till date has only been found in a Papuan sample. Second MP has cousins K1, K2, K3, K4, NO and S and no one has established that these are west Eurasian. So the simplest scenario is MP begetting M in SE Asia, another begetting P in either SE Asia, or travelling to South or Inner Asia.

K(xLT) M526/PF5979
• • • • • • • • • • • MP
• • • • • • • • • • • • M
• • • • • • • • • • • • P
• • • • • • • • • • • • • Q
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R
• • • • • • • • • • • NO
• • • • • • • • • • • S
• • • • • • • • • • • K1
• • • • • • • • • • • K2
• • • • • • • • • • • K3
• • • • • • • • • • • K4

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/8/1833/F2.medium.gif
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/8/1833.full
I agree that speculation on motives (especially any racial one) is not warranted. But we all suffer from mental inertia induced by preconcieved notions, I was guilty of it with the R=European, even though the writing was on the wall well before MA-1.

[alan]

We have so few hard facts for early R. All we know is an R* man, apparently living at a time when R1 and R2 lines also existed somewhere, lived to the west of Baikal in the teeth of the LGM. A look at a map of the zones gives us some idea of where Mal'ta boy and his immediate ancestors could roam in the LGM

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/NEW_MAPS/eurasia1.gif

You can see there was a vast area (maybe 2000km?) of various types of desert to the south and a large desert zone to the east. The only viable movement from there is along the steppe tundra (probably its slightly less brutal southern edge) to Altai and westwards. This line of course went extinct or so it seems. It seems there is a good case for Q wintering in Altai in the LGM. We also know that R2 found itself on the other side of this huge barrier of desert. We just cannot say where R1 was located. Its age is so similar to the start of the LGM that it could have ended up in theory on either side of that desert band. I would argue of archaeological cultural grounds and Michal's SNP counting that R probably emerged in south-central Siberia c. 30000BC

Here is a question - probably for Parasar but for anyone who can answer it. We know there was an R guy at Baikal in 22000BC and we know R2 is well represented in India. If you were to go from India to Baikal or vice versa, what would your route options have been in the past. Did all traffic north from India go by the north-west route - was it impossible to go more directly due to the Himalayas?

[Jean M]

I think we all agree that at the IJK node that we are back in SW Asia or the Levant

Why would IJK be in the Levant? IJ yes. Not IJK surely?

[newtoboard]

Why would IJK be in the Levant? IJ yes. Not IJK surely?

Why even IJ? The only living IJ is in Iran which also has more J diversity than the Levant. J reaches its greatest diversity in the regions north of the Levant ie the Iranian, Armenian and Anatolian plateaus.

[Jean M]

Why even IJ? The only living IJ is in Iran which also has more J diversity than the Levant. J reaches its greatest diversity in the regions north of the Levant ie the Iranian, Armenian and Anatolian plateaus.

When I refer to the Levant, I'm talking about the UP sites there that appear to be antecedent to UP sites in Europe. Of course it could be simple accident that they were uncovered. But they exist and make a natural UP route into Europe and North Africa for mtDNA U* on present knowledge. Another route has recently been discovered via the Caucasus which ends in the Kostenki mtDNA U2.

There was a lot of moving around in between these first human dispersals and those of the Mesolithic and Neolithic. The latter have more chance of being reflected in present-day DNA.

1362

[newtoboard]

When I refer to the Levant, I'm talking about the UP sites there that appear to be antecedent to UP sites in Europe. Of course it could be simple accident that they were uncovered. But they exist and make a natural UP route into Europe and North Africa for mtDNA U* on present knowledge. Another route has recently been discovered via the Caucasus which ends in the Kostenki mtDNA U2.

There was a lot of moving around in between these first human dispersals and those of the Mesolithic and Neolithic. The latter have more chance of being reflected in present-day DNA.

1362

We will see. I think there is a lot more information about UP sites in the Levant than in Iran, Anatolia or the South Caucasus. I think it is more likely IJ originated near the South Caucasus than the Levant but time will tell.

[Jean M]

I think it is more likely IJ originated near the South Caucasus...

We will never know for sure where it originated. I was not trying to say that the mutation arose in the Levant. But simply that I can picture IJ being in those sites. I have more trouble picturing IJK there. I don't see the logical necessity at the moment.

[newtoboard]

We will never know for sure where it originated. I was not trying to say that the mutation arose in the Levant. But simply that I can picture IJ being in those sites. I have more trouble picturing IJK there. I don't see the logical necessity at the moment.

I understand what you are saying now. I agree with you. The distribution of K and K(xLT)of K would certainly pull IJK to a more eastern location.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder if Baradostian and Zarazian are good candidates for IJ and early descendant clades. Thoug. Not much information about non Levantine Up sites in West Asia.

[parasar]

We have so few hard facts for early R. All we know is an R* man, apparently living at a time when R1 and R2 lines also existed somewhere, lived to the west of Baikal in the teeth of the LGM. A look at a map of the zones gives us some idea of where Mal'ta boy and his immediate ancestors could roam in the LGM

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/NEW_MAPS/eurasia1.gif

You can see there was a vast area (maybe 2000km?) of various types of desert to the south and a large desert zone to the east. The only viable movement from there is along the steppe tundra (probably its slightly less brutal southern edge) to Altai and westwards. This line of course went extinct or so it seems. It seems there is a good case for Q wintering in Altai in the LGM. We also know that R2 found itself on the other side of this huge barrier of desert. We just cannot say where R1 was located. Its age is so similar to the start of the LGM that it could have ended up in theory on either side of that desert band. I would argue of archaeological cultural grounds and Michal's SNP counting that R probably emerged in south-central Siberia c. 30000BC

Here is a question - probably for Parasar but for anyone who can answer it. We know there was an R guy at Baikal in 22000BC and we know R2 is well represented in India. If you were to go from India to Baikal or vice versa, what would your route options have been in the past. Did all traffic north from India go by the north-west route - was it impossible to go more directly due to the Himalayas?

alan,

The eastern corridor has been very porous, much more so than the west. Much of SE Asia had Indic influences and vice versa. Y-O (both Austric and Shan) doiminates the central highlands and beyond the Brahmaputra. I am from eastern India and folk here have problem with pronouncing R, it is pronounced as L as East Asiatics do (or maybe early Indo-Europeans also had the L which became R).

The northen passes to Tibet are (or were before PRC) easily accessible when the rivers do not have snow melt, and as the rivers are antecedent their beds are much lower in elevation than the surrounding Himalayan mountains. But Tibetan incursions were rare. Plus Tibet never did sustain a large enough population to make much of an impact on northern India.

If one had to travel to the Baikal from northern India, the route post opening of the Silk Road has been through the northwestern passes. The Chinese and Tukharans came to the monasteries in India that way. The Koreans, I'm not sure. The SE Asians came from the eastern routes, and Tibetans through the river valleys.

But your question pertains to 22000bc or thereabouts. We don't even know if the Mal'ta folk came from India. My inclination is that the Mal'ta people are related to the Vedda peoples of Lanka and the Nilgiris, but the Veddas were likely immigrants too.

I recall reading about Tibetan type rhinos in the arctic - it would be interesting to know how that happened, as perhaps humans and rhinos used the same route.

[Jean M]

I wonder if Baradostian and Zarzian are good candidates for IJ and early descendant clades.

Don't encourage me. I do have a bit of tendency to think that anything important happened in the Zagros. I'm trying to fight it. ;)

[alan]

Thank you for that information. I would probably think R* in Mal'ta and R2 in India are both from an intermediate point rather than one coming from the other. So, I would tend to imagine from central Asia Stan countries. The NW route does seem the likely one to me


alan,

The eastern corridor has been very porous, much more so than the west. Much of SE Asia had Indic influences and vice versa. Y-O (both Austric and Shan) doiminates the central highlands and beyond the Brahmaputra. I am from eastern India and folk here have problem with pronouncing R, it is pronounced as L as East Asiatics do (or maybe early Indo-Europeans also had the L which became R).

The northen passes to Tibet are (or were before PRC) easily accessible when the rivers do not have snow melt, and as the rivers are antecedent their beds are much lower in elevation than the surrounding Himalayan mountains. But Tibetan incursions were rare. Plus Tibet never did sustain a large enough population to make much of an impact on northern India.

If one had to travel to the Baikal from northern India, the route post opening of the Silk Road has been through the northwestern passes. The Chinese and Tukharans came to the monasteries in India that way. The Koreans, I'm not sure. The SE Asians came from the eastern routes, and Tibetans through the river valleys.

But your question pertains to 22000bc or thereabouts. We don't even know if the Mal'ta folk came from India. My inclination is that the Mal'ta people are related to the Vedda peoples of Lanka and the Nilgiris, but the Veddas were likely immigrants too.

I recall reading about Tibetan type rhinos in the arctic - it would be interesting to know how that happened, as perhaps humans and rhinos used the same route.

[newtoboard]

Thank you for that information. I would probably think R* in Mal'ta and R2 in India are both from an intermediate point rather than one coming from the other. So, I would tend to imagine from central Asia Stan countries. The NW route does seem the likely one to me

That is what I have been thinking. It makes sense to view P and R as originating in a belt that encompasses the 5 stan countries and view R2 as an southeastern extension, the Malta R which is probably better described as R3 as a northern extension and maybe R1 as a western extension( time will tell if R1 originated NW or SW of this region).

[parasar]

That is what I have been thinking. It makes sense to view P and R as originating in a belt that encompasses the 5 stan countries and view R2 as an southeastern extension, the Malta R which is probably better described as R3 as a northern extension and maybe R1 as a western extension( time will tell if R1 originated NW or SW of this region).

And MP?
MA1 was pre -R derivative separating few thousand years prior to the R level.
Could be related to Yana

[alan]

I can see an archaeological model for that that works. Initially when I worked out the cultural scenario that Mal'ta belonged to it wasnt clear where it was from as it had no obvious external root. That seems most likely to be because the Mal'ta central Siberian middle upper Palaeolithic culture evolved locally (in response to changing conditions and hunting tactics) from the early upper Palaeolithic culture of central Siberia. Now the latter according to 'The Early Upper Palaeolithic Beyond Western Europe' does have clear external origins that seem to have crossed from SW Asia through Iran, through the Stan countries (I think Turkmen and Uzbek but I will have to check - googlebooks doesnt include the relevant section but I have a hard copy of the book). Now that is going way back to 40000BC and earlier. So, any such movement (IF it had a link with R etc) didnt start as R as R is not old enough (probably not older than 30000BC) but must have made its initial journey in P form (If not upstream of that).

However, as I posted above, the date and climate context for R itself and the cultural context of Mal'ta is suggestive that R must have arisen c. 30000BC just as the cultural phase 'the middle upper palaeolithic of south-central Siberia' it belonged to appeared. This culture seems to have been a demographic and geographic expansion phase due to improved conditions after a bad period for a few millenia before 30,000BC. I feel forced to conclude that this is when and where R arose because the only hard datapoint we have for R does place it in that culture and the datespans etc fit very well. That would appear to imply to me that R itself arose east of the river Ob which appears to be the west boundary of this culture.


That is what I have been thinking. It makes sense to view P and R as originating in a belt that encompasses the 5 stan countries and view R2 as an southeastern extension, the Malta R which is probably better described as R3 as a northern extension and maybe R1 as a western extension( time will tell if R1 originated NW or SW of this region).

- - - Updated - - -

Just going back to Michal's calculations (I think these are his latest but they are spread round a few threads so I might be wrong):

61.9 (52.8-81.3) haplogroup IJK
58.8 (50.1-77.3) haplogroup K
40.2 (34.3-52.9) haplogroup P
36.6 (31.2-48.2) haplogroup I
33.5 (28.6-44.1) haplogroup R
27.6 (23.5-36.3) haplogroup R1

It does look to me that P is the right sort of age to have been the main player is the apparent spread of the first upper palaeolithic culture to Siberia via Iran and the Stan central Asian countries. In fact pretty well the entire initial spread from Iran (and even further south-west) as far as central Siberia must have been pre-R and in this hypothesis would have been P.

I havent seen a date for the split of P from MP as it is a new finding. Is there one?

[alan]

The fact that M seems strongest in New Guinea is interesting. The Denisovans also left their biggest imprint there.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/denisovan/

Its generally thought that the Denisovan/anatomically modern mix did not happen in Melanesia but happened long before their arrival somewhere in Asia as anatomically modern humans headed east from SW Asia. Although the story is mighty unclear, it is nevertheless interesting in that Densovans do show that Siberia and Melanesia shared genes. I am not saying the connection is direct at all but Denisovan admixture does show how ancient and modern DNA can link as far away areas as central Siberia and Melanesia and is potentially a useful marker to understand the how, where and when of how modern human DNA got to Melanesia.

I have not been following the Denisovan thing very closely to be honest so if anyone (Jean?) can comment it might throw some light on this.


Regarding the prehistory of Melanesia this genetic article (its rather old) http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/8/1628.full.pdf
does (I was skimming) seem to suggest M and K were the oldest inputs and that the age estimate (can anyone comment on their method) came in close to the archaeological first settlement date (at the time that article was written) of c. 40000BC.

[Jean M]

So, any such movement (IF it had a link with R etc) didn't start as R as R is not old enough (probably not older than 30000BC) but must have made its initial journey in P form

That is what I'm going for in my talk this month. I don't show R2 simply for reasons of space/clarity, but like you, I am presuming that it went south to avoid the LGM.

1366

[alan]

I was wondering if Denisovan in Melanesia and Australasia was most likely connected to K/M or C. This Dienekes discussion seemed to M/K rather than C

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/y-chromosome-admixture-in-self.html

- - - Updated - - -

Jean

Where is you talk?

I definately agree. If P (and I suppose PM and even KxLT) was made out to be part of a very old south coastal movements east then it woudnt really leave much. fancy at least most of them to be part of the wave of early upper palaeolithic groups that took the high road from Iran rather than the south.

I certainly dont see why M is seen as such a problem and I think rejigging the entire human journey based on the MP node is at the very least jumping the gun. AIf MP took the northern branch of the road east it would have eventually had several options to turn south again from the Hindu Kush (I believe there are some rare M people there) or Dzungai or the Russian far east. All of these could access the areas where M is common even if it was a heck of a journey. After all they all come from IJK (if that term is still valid) and that surely has to have originated in SW Asia all things considered. Basically many clades ended up overlapping despite likely taking different routes - Melanesians have C, O, M, K etc and as far as I can see its generally thought that they all just eventually converged there but came from different directions. So, I dont really see why M being a bit more of an adventurer needs everything rewritten. Well certainly I am not convinced as yet.


That is what I'm going for in my talk this week. I don't show R2 simply for reasons of space/clarity, but like you, I am presuming that it went south to avoid the LGM.

1366

- - - Updated - - -

Jean

Where is you talk?

I definately agree. If P (and I suppose PM and even KxLT) was made out to be part of a very old south coastal movements east then it woudnt really leave much. fancy at least most of them to be part of the wave of early upper palaeolithic groups that took the high road from Iran rather than the south.

I certainly dont see why M is seen as such a problem and I think rejigging the entire human journey based on the MP node is at the very least jumping the gun. AIf MP took the northern branch of the road east it would have eventually had several options to turn south again from the Hindu Kush (I believe there are some rare M people there) or Dzungai or the Russian far east. All of these could access the areas where M is common even if it was a heck of a journey. After all they all come from IJK (if that term is still valid) and that surely has to have originated in SW Asia all things considered. Basically many clades ended up overlapping despite likely taking different routes - Melanesians have C, O, M, K etc and as far as I can see its generally thought that they all just eventually converged there but came from different directions. So, I dont really see why M being a bit more of an adventurer needs everything rewritten. Well certainly I am not convinced as yet.




That is what I'm going for in my talk this month. I don't show R2 simply for reasons of space/clarity, but like you, I am presuming that it went south to avoid the LGM.

1366

- - - Updated - - -

Something weird is going on in terms of posting. Is there some system been put up to combine consecutive posts by the same author?

- - - Updated - - -

Jean

See that crucial first Eurasian node you put on your map? Is that IJK?


That is what I'm going for in my talk this month. I don't show R2 simply for reasons of space/clarity, but like you, I am presuming that it went south to avoid the LGM.

1366

[parasar]

...
I certainly dont see why M is seen as such a problem and I think rejigging the entire human journey based on the MP node is at the very least jumping the gun. AIf MP took the northern branch of the road east it would have eventually had several options to turn south again from the Hindu Kush (I believe there are some rare M people there) or Dzungai or the Russian far east. All of these could access the areas where M is common even if it was a heck of a journey. After all they all come from IJK (if that term is still valid) and that surely has to have originated in SW Asia all things considered. Basically many clades ended up overlapping despite likely taking different routes - Melanesians have C, O, M, K etc and as far as I can see its generally thought that they all just eventually converged there but came from different directions. So, I dont really see why M being a bit more of an adventurer needs everything rewritten. Well certainly I am not convinced as yet.


...

The entire human journey was not clear anyway. Rather than a sink SE Asia was more likely a source for much of modern humanity in the past 50000 years. The period between 100000 and 50000 years is the key. I still think the movement between southern locations has not clearly been explained.

The GHIJK node also needs scrutiny. While I agree with an early west Eurasian branch due to G and L, the source of this node too may be in SE Asia (those no calls need to be verified).


sample HG02040 (Kinh population) indicate a separation in SNPs defining the branch for haplogroup F (Hg-F). In particular, although HG02040 has most of the
key SNPs in common with other Hg-F samples, his results indicate ancestral results for three SNPs that are found to be derived (or no-call) for all other Hg-F samples (including Hg-G, Hg-H, Hg-I, and Hg-J) ... Thus, it would appear that these three SNP mutations define a new haplogroup (which might be called haplogroup“GHIJK”) that is downstream of Hg-F and upstream of the recently-identified Hg-HIJK [3] Magoon et al

[alan]

What is going on with the automatic combining up of consecutive posts. Its an absolute nightmare for people like me who thoughts come out in a quick chain reaction rather than in one go.

[parasar]

What is going on with the automatic combining up of consecutive posts. Its an absolute nightmare for people like me who thoughts come out in a quick chain reaction rather than in one go.

alan,

You could try "Go Advanced" rather than "Post Quick Reply"

[Jean M]

What is going on with the automatic combining up of consecutive posts. Its an absolute nightmare for people like me who thoughts come out in a quick chain reaction rather than in one go.

See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2148-Automatic-Post-Merging-Opinions

And it is possible to edit your own posts, to remove the inadvertent duplication.

[alan]

Ah ok cheers Jean. I voted that its a pain lol

- - - Updated - - -

I found this site and thought it was very useful to get your head around Asian yDNA

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/22

[parasar]

The Ainu cluster with Southeast Asia because both are Sundadont populations. ... ancient progenitors of the Ainu came from Southeast Asia by human groups expanding northward more than 30,000 years ago along the shores of the now-submerged East Asian continental shelf ... http://books.google.com/books?id=HuRcAyXWJxIC&pg=PA295


... includes Southeast Asians, Polynesians, the Jomon, and the Ainu. According to Turner, the original center of this dental type was the now-submerged Sundaland, a continental shelf that linked island and mainland Southeast ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=eTFMPO5NdKgC&pg=PA68


The 6000+ mile island chain from Java to Kamchatka/Sakhalin would be the remnants of that old continental shelf.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Historical_expanse_of_the_Ainu.svg/700px-Historical_expanse_of_the_Ainu.svg.png
http://cdn.wa-pedia.com/images/content/japanonglobe.jpg

That likely was the same path that P took north from South East Asia to Eastern Siberia.

[Mehrdad]

Ah ok cheers Jean. I voted that its a pain lol

- - - Updated - - -

I found this site and thought it was very useful to get your head around Asian yDNA

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/22

I read about Pygmies populating the islands of the Pacific in the article you have attached, it would seem to collaborate an ancient Fijian legend that I heard as a Child. Apparently the father of the first Fijians (Lutunasobasoba) was said to have encountered these pygmies when he and his family first came to Fiji. These are just legends, and were orally passed down for thousands of years, I think there could be some hint of truth in them.

[Jean M]

That likely was the same path that P took north from South East Asia to Eastern Siberia.

I don't find it likely that P was sundadont and then R reversed that. We can have a southern coastal route around India and into SE Asia without absolutely every person who reached Siberia having to take it. ;)

[alan]

I think the climatic context around 43-38000BC is worth looking at. Around this time and a few centuries before the earliest human groups in northern Eurasia appeared. It was a time of good climate and allowed expansion into both Europe (Bohenician) and into southern Siberia. Both cultures have links with SW Asian cultures like Emiran which has been shown to belong to modern humans. This seems to be a period when conditions were good enough for modern humans to first go into Europe, north/mid central Asia and south Siberia. There is no suggestion in the archaeological record for any role for SE Asia in this.

What I think is significant is that the 2nd worst Volcanic explosion in millions of years happened about 37000BC and a Heinrich Event of sudden intense cold occurred at this date. In such a scenario it seems far more likely to me that populations or subsets thereof headed south and a move north would seem very unlikely indeed.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U2qDI94mJYAC&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125&dq=origin+of+bohunician&source=bl&ots=OpDy_cZeWs&sig=3ARrp2zZog0vxe6AIfZ3Y5PkGjA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mwL0UseeI9SO7Aa92IDwCw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=origin%20of%20bohunician&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=HuRcAyXWJxIC&pg=PA295


http://books.google.com/books?id=eTFMPO5NdKgC&pg=PA68


The 6000+ mile island chain from Java to Kamchatka/Sakhalin would be the remnants of that old continental shelf.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Historical_expanse_of_the_Ainu.svg/700px-Historical_expanse_of_the_Ainu.svg.png
http://cdn.wa-pedia.com/images/content/japanonglobe.jpg

That likely was the same path that P took north from South East Asia to Eastern Siberia.

[Jean M]

I have not been following the Denisovan thing very closely to be honest so if anyone (Jean?) can comment it might throw some light on this.


I can offer the coverage in Nature of the first Australian Aboriginal genome. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110922/full/news.2011.551.html


Like other populations outside Africa, the Australian Aboriginal man owes small chunks of his genome to Neanderthals. More surprisingly, though, his ancestors also interbred with another archaic human population known as the Denisovans. This group was identified from 30,000–50,000-year-old DNA recovered from a finger bone found in a Siberian cave. Until now, Papua New Guineans were the only modern human population whose ancestors were known to have interbred with Denisovans.

A second study incorporating genomic surveys from different Aboriginal Australians paints an even clearer picture of their ancestors' exploits with the Denisovans. Researchers led by Mark Stoneking at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, calculated the portion of Denisovan ancestry found in the genomes of 243 people representing 33 Asian and Oceanian populations. Patterns of Denisovan interbreeding in human populations could reveal human migration routes through Asia, reasoned the team. The paper is published today in the American Journal of Human Genetics.

This comparison revealed a patchwork in which some populations, including Australian Aboriginals, bore varying levels of Denisovan DNA, while many of their neighbours, like the residents of mainland Southeast Asia, contained none.

Stoneking says that this pattern hints at at least two waves of human migration into Asia: an early trek that included the ancestors of contemporary Aboriginal Australians, New Guineans and some other Oceanians, followed by a second wave that gave rise to the present residents of mainland Asia. Some members of the first wave (though not all of them) interbred with Denisovans. However, the Denisovans may have vanished by the time the second Asian migrants arrived. This also suggests that the Denisovan's range, so far linked only to a cave in southern Siberia, once extended to Southeast Asia and perhaps Oceania.

[parasar]

I don't find it likely that P was sundadont and then R reversed that. We can have a southern coastal route around India and into SE Asia without absolutely every person who reached Siberia having to take it. ;)

Who said that R were not Sundadont? The Sundadont influx we see in Mehrgarh - I think they were R and Q. We also know that early Americans were Jomon like and Sundadonts, and current ones are not, and both current and former Americans were likely Q. Sinodonty was a later EDAR sweep in Siberia, East Asia, and the Americas.

I do see the southern coastal route as a possibility, at least for early Y-CEDF.

[Jean M]

Who said that R were not Sundadont? The Sundadont influx we see in Mehrgarh - I think they were R and Q.

Why would they be R and Q? There is not a scrap of evidence to suggest it. Q barely appears in South Asia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242 . As for R - surely you accept that it is not ancient in South Asia?

There is no link I know of between Y-DNA R and sunadonty.

The genetic input into Native Americans from the relatives of Mal'ta boy need not include any form of East Asian dentition. There was another component in the groups who moved across Beringaria - one with East Asian affinities. Mal'ta boy had no East Asian element in his genome.

[parasar]

Why would they be R and Q? There is not a scrap of evidence to suggest it. Q barely appears in South Asia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242 . As for R - surely you accept that it is not ancient in South Asia?



With the variety of haplogroups in South Asia, not everything can be present in high percentages. The Wikipedia link you posted says this for a reason: "Possible place of origin Central Asia,[3] the Indian Subcontinent,[4] Siberia[5]"

Mehrdad has tabulated the %ages in mainly Tamil tribes and castes. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1983-South-Asia-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=29441&viewfull=1#post29441
As you can see Q (with P* and R*-most likely M479, but some M207) is present well above trace amounts.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1331&d=1391197066

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1332&d=1391197312




There is no link I know of between Y-DNA R and sunadonty.

The genetic input into Native Americans from the relatives of Mal'ta boy need not include any form of East Asian dentition. There was another component in the groups who moved across Beringaria - one with East Asian affinities. Mal'ta boy had no East Asian element in his genome.

That is reason I mentioned Q. Q gives us the sundadont connection - early Americans were sundadont, what else but Q could they have been? Later sinodonty spread - that is the eastern Asian influence. So yes by my reasoning Mal'ta would be sundadont (or close if U was from a more western population), as EDAR type eastern Asian influence had not spread by that time.

[alan]

The southern coastal route was clearly very important for some haplogroups but I just dont see P, Q and R originally taking that route. All three could slip into south Asia at some point from the Hindu Kush or Altai or the Russian far east. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.


Who said that R were not Sundadont? The Sundadont influx we see in Mehrgarh - I think they were R and Q. We also know that early Americans were Jomon like and Sundadonts, and current ones are not, and both current and former Americans were likely Q. Sinodonty was a later EDAR sweep in Siberia, East Asia, and the Americas.

I do see the southern coastal route as a possibility, at least for early Y-CEDF.

[Jean M]

Q gives us the sundadont connection - early Americans were sundadont, what else but Q could they have been?

I can understand your thinking, but it presupposes that Y-DNA Q traveled with an autosomal package that was completely unchanged from the birth of Q in Asia to its arrival at the southern tip of South America. That cannot be. The autosomal link between Mal'ta boy and North Americans we can guess was linked to Y-DNA Q. Mal'ta boy had neither sunadont nor sinodont teeth.

Y-DNA Q probably travelled at first with mtDNA X2. But before crossing [correcting hilarious error] Beringia the group who crossed had acquired mtDNA A, B, C and D. These are East Asian haplogroups. We can only guess at the Y-lines that they arrived in NE Siberia with. They evidently did not survive. I am assuming that this East Asian genetic input brought both sinodonty and sundadonty into the group, since these are both found as far south as Mexico* so they both probably arrived in the first founding population. The later arrivals (Na-Dené, Inuit etc) did not penetrate so far south, as far as we know.

* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8771313

[Rathna]

[QUOTE=Jean M;30332
Y-DNA Q probably travelled at first with mtDNA X2. But before crossing Berengaria [/QUOTE]

"Berengaria of Navarre (Spanish: Berenguela, French: Bérengère; c. 1165–1170 – 23 December 1230) was Queen consort of England as the wife of Richard I of England".

What a shame for Berengaria if all those men passed through!

[Grossvater]

"Berengaria of Navarre (Spanish: Berenguela, French: Bérengère; c. 1165–1170 – 23 December 1230) was Queen consort of England as the wife of Richard I of England".

What a shame for Berengaria if all those men passed through!

I was thinking along similar lines but I was just going to let it go!:) I think Jean meant Beringia

[alan]

I still think looking at admixture with Denisovan and Neanderthal admixture in modern populations and considering the ancient ranges of these groups and the contrast between ancient and modern could tell us something about the routes taken by modern human lineages. There is no map of ancient Denisovan remains AFAIK. So that doesnt help although I have read that its not thought they were present in SE Asia.

I also think, given that the Neanderthal ancient geographical range is fairly well established, looking at the contrast between this and modern frequency (which seem strong) also can give indirect evidence of the routes modern human lineages took. I could not find an overall frequency map of neanderthal genes in modern populations.

Denisovan genes in modern populations

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Anthropogenesis-DenisovaAlleleMap.jpg

Neanderthal range
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/special/neandertal/feature/img/neandertal-range-map.gif

One thing that immediately strikes me is if Neanderthal genes area most common in SE Asia then that area was not even part of the Neanderthal range. So some human population had to have passed through the Neanderthal range before reaching the current locations.

[Jean M]

What a shame for Berengaria if all those men passed through!

:biggrin1: Corrected! What strange things my brain does to me. I think it is overstuffed. Needs a good clear-out.


I was thinking along similar lines but I was just going to let it go!:) I think Jean meant Beringia

I would rather be corrected. You knew what I meant, but my brain blip might confuse newcomers to the topic.

[parasar]

I can understand your thinking, but it presupposes that Y-DNA Q traveled with an autosomal package that was completely unchanged from the birth of Q in Asia to its arrival at the southern tip of South America. That cannot be. The autosomal link between Mal'ta boy and North Americans we can guess was linked to Y-DNA Q. Mal'ta boy had neither sunadont nor sinodont teeth.

Y-DNA Q probably travelled at first with mtDNA X2. But before crossing Berengaria the group who crossed had acquired mtDNA A, B, C and D. These are East Asian haplogroups. We can only guess at the Y-lines that they arrived in NE Siberia with. They evidently did not survive. I am assuming that this East Asian genetic input brought both sinodonty and sundadonty into the group, since these are both found as far south as Mexico* so they both probably arrived in the first founding population. The later arrivals (Na-Dené, Inuit etc) did not penetrate so far south, as far as we know.

* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8771313

It appears that no one knows for sure the clear status of the Mal'ta child's unerupted teeth, I would expect it to be quite sundadont with some transition, as Mal'ta's early relatives in the Americas were sundadont.


The oldest individual was a single Homo sapiens boy of about 3-4 years old, wearing a necklace of beads, several pendants and an ivory diadem. Partial remains include parts of the cranium, mandible and maxilla, and several post-cranial bones. The second child is only represented by teeth. Both have slightly shovel-shaped incisors, a characteristic of North American and modern Siberian people, but according to the Nature paper (Raghavan et al. 2013), bioarchaeologist Christy Turner investigated and concluded that the bones are morphologically most closely related to Upper Paleolithic Europeans.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/upperpaleolithic/fl/Malta-Russia.htm

[Jean M]

It appears that no one knows for sure the clear status of the Mal'ta child's unerupted teeth

Neither sundadonty nor sinodonty is found in the Mal'ta culture, according to Christy Turner. So I doubt whether this boy was any different.

[parasar]

I still think looking at admixture with Denisovan and Neanderthal admixture in modern populations and considering the ancient ranges of these groups and the contrast between ancient and modern could tell us something about the routes taken by modern human lineages. There is no map of ancient Denisovan remains AFAIK. So that doesnt help although I have read that its not thought they were present in SE Asia.

I also think, given that the Neanderthal ancient geographical range is fairly well established, looking at the contrast between this and modern frequency (which seem strong) also can give indirect evidence of the routes modern human lineages took. I could not find an overall frequency map of neanderthal genes in modern populations.

Denisovan genes in modern populations

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Anthropogenesis-DenisovaAlleleMap.jpg

Neanderthal range
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/special/neandertal/feature/img/neandertal-range-map.gif

One thing that immediately strikes me is if Neanderthal genes area most common in SE Asia then that area was not even part of the Neanderthal range. So some human population had to have passed through the Neanderthal range before reaching the current locations.

There was a recent paper on Neanderthal admixture:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iPjWPx5aHF0/UulquRDwSEI/AAAAAAAAJew/XCKk9JDFwsQ/s1600/neandertal.png
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12961.html

- - - Updated - - -


Neither sundadonty nor sinodonty is found in the Mal'ta culture. So I doubt whether this boy was any different.

I have been looking for confirmation of this information, but have not been able to find any.

[Jean M]

I have been looking for confirmation of this information, but have not been able to find any.

Raghavan 2013, supplement, page 4.


Christy Turner studied the Mal’ta teeth in the early 1980’s and based on morphological characteristics concluded they were most closely related to Upper Palaeolithic Europeans such as those represented at the Sungir’ site near Moscow. Based on slight shoveling of the incisors, however, Alekseev concluded that the Mal'ta children were likely of the "Mongoloid" type or East Asian in origin. Our results certainly support Turner’s interpretations, especially coupled with the presence of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup (hg) U in Mal’ta and other European Upper Palaeolithic peoples sampled for ancient DNA.


It should be simple enough to find out. The gene for it is known* and they have the genome.

*http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2813%2900067-6

[Added] - Yes Raghavan 2013, supplement, p. 109 reports that MA1 "does not have the allele associated with hair thickness and shovel-shaped incisors in Asians (rs3827760)".

[parasar]

Raghavan 2013, supplement, page 4.



It should be simple enough to find out. The gene for it is known* and they have the genome.

*http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2813%2900067-6

Yes I saw that, but that is a negative inference since they did not find rs3827760 mutation in MA-1. We are not even sure that East Asians at that time were Sinodonts.

[Jean M]

Yes I saw that, but that is a negative inference since they did not find rs3827760 mutation in MA-1. We are not even sure that East Asians at that time were Sinodonts.

Parasar - They did not find the mutation that causes shovel teeth in MA1. So he did not have shovel teeth. It is really very straightforward. Do give it up. The message from Raghavan 2013 was spelled out loud and clear. MA1 had no East Asian affiliation, was not related to the present-day population of Siberia and was much more closely related to present-day Europeans. No shovel teeth. Nothing to link him to Ainu or SE Asians either. The inference that we can draw is that his ancestors did not come up the coast from SE Asia.

Other people did. And they formed part of the mixed group that moved into the Americas.

[parasar]

Parasar - They did not find the mutation that causes shovel teeth in MA1. So he did not have shovel teeth. It is really very straightforward. Do give it up. The message from Raghavan 2013 was spelled out loud and clear. MA1 had no East Asian affiliation, was not related to the present-day population of Siberia and was much more closely related to present-day Europeans. No shovel teeth. Nothing to link him to Ainu or SE Asians either. The inference that we can draw is that his ancestors did not come up the coast from SE Asia.

Jean,

Give it up, is that how the scientific process works now?

I'm just looking for proof to justify what you stated:

Neither sundadonty nor sinodonty is found in the Mal'ta culture, according to Christy Turner. So I doubt whether this boy was any different.

Lack of rs3827760 does not imply absence of sundadonty, but only absence of sinodonty.

[Jean M]

We are not even sure that East Asians at that time were Sinodonts.

The mutation is estimated to have occurred around 30,000 years ago somewhere in/near China. Even before that the genome from a 40,000-year-old anatomically modern human from Tianyuan Cave outside Beijing, China, showed that East Asians had already diverged from West Eurasians. It belonged to a population ancestral to many present-day Asians and Native Americans. See Qiaomei Fu et al., DNA analysis of an early modern human from Tianyuan Cave, China, PNAS, February 5, 2013, vol. 110, no. 6, pp. 2223–2227.
http://wwwstaff.eva.mpg.de/~paabo/pdf1/Fu_DNA_PNAS_2013.pdf

- - - Updated - - -


Jean, Give it up, is that how the scientific process works now?

The scientific process does not involve making a groundless assumption and then sticking to it regardless of the complete lack of supporting evidence. Sundadonty is found in south-east Asian populations. MA1 showed no genetic connection to them.

[parasar]

The mutation is estimated to have occurred around 30,000 years ago somewhere in/near China. Even before that the genome from a 40,000-year-old anatomically modern human from Tianyuan Cave outside Beijing, China, showed that East Asians had already diverged from West Eurasians. It belonged to a population ancestral to many present-day Asians and Native Americans. See Qiaomei Fu et al., DNA analysis of an early modern human from Tianyuan Cave, China, PNAS, February 5, 2013, vol. 110, no. 6, pp. 2223–2227.
http://wwwstaff.eva.mpg.de/~paabo/pdf1/Fu_DNA_PNAS_2013.pdf

- - - Updated - - -



The scientific process does not involve making a groundless assumption and then sticking to it regardless of the complete lack of supporting evidence. Sundadonty is found in south-east Asian populations. MA1 showed no genetic connection to them.

Actually my assumption is well grounded as explained before, that early Americans were sundaonts, early Americans were likely Q, this Q was related to the MA1 pre-R, and therefore MA1 was likely a sundadont. It is your statement that MA1 is not a sundadont that you are not able to support.

Then you provide a link to the Tianyuan Cave paper, what does that have to do with rs3827760 which is on Chromosome 2? Is Tianyuan derived at that locus?
If not, how does that prove anything.

Yes I know that Tianyaun on their tree looks already diverged from West Eurasians, and ancestral to East Asians, Native Americans, and Papuans, but that in no way precludes a later input from the latter side to the former, which exactly what I think ANE is.

[alan]

I would wonder if the fact that the Neanderthal range only stretched far to the east at the latitude of Siberia combined with the apparently higher levels of Neanderthal in SE Asian populations and the native Americans is not pretty good indirect evidence that some human groups mixed with Neanderthals in Siberia before they made the move from Siberia to SE Asia. I also think it is possible that the Denisovan DNA in some groups in SE Asia is also not indicative of a move from somewhere like Siberia into SE Asia.

- - - Updated - - -

I think Jean has pretty well shown the evidence is strong from Mal'ta that the affiliations genetically, dentally etc were north Eurasian and not east Asian. As strong as you could possibly hope for given the age of the remains. Add to this that the archaeology is pretty clearcut that there is a strong evidence that modern humans entered south-central Siberia from central Asia and Iran c. 40000BC but there is absolutely no suggestion of a south-east Asia or south Asia to Siberia move at this time. Indeed shortly after this period c. 3800-3700BC there was one of the worst volcanic winters and sharp Heinrich event type climatic downturns in Eurasia that a move north from south Asia or SE Asia into Siberia in the next few thousand years would seem incredibly unlikely while the reverse move would be very understandable. That downturn may have ended the Bohenicians in Europe.

It also seems to me that modern humans spreading by the south coast route from Africa would have had relatively little overlap with Neanderthals. So, it seems likely to me that the higher Neanderthal mixture in SE Asia and the Americas derives from mixing that took place in Siberia.

[Jean M]

Actually my assumption is well grounded as explained before, that early Americans were sundaonts, early Americans were likely Q, this Q was related to the MA1 pre-R, and therefore MA1 was likely a sundadont.

I perfectly understand the temptation to link this or that Y-DNA haplogroup to this or that autosomal trait, especially where they occur together in a particular region - blond hair and Y-DNA I1 in Scandinavia for example. That is the sort of assumption often made by newcomers to genetic genealogy. But you know as well as I do that Y-DNA does not control autosomal traits, and that these are the result of a new mix with every generation. A trait can be passed down by a mother as well as a father! ;)

The clear message from Raghavan 2013 was that MA1 was not related to East Asians or SE Asians. It really could not be clearer. They made that point over and over. You can see it yourself in the various genome-wide comparisons that have been published. Those are the facts.

It came as a big surprise to a lot of people that this European-like individual could represent a population ancestral to Native Americans, but of course this was not the only population ancestral to them. There were other people in the mix who carried East Asian and SE Asian traits into the Americas. I forget the percentages estimated.

[Tomasso29]

I perfectly understand the temptation to link this or that Y-DNA haplogroup to this or that autosomal trait, especially where they occur together in a particular region - blond hair and Y-DNA I1 in Scandinavia for example. That is the sort of assumption often made by newcomers to genetic genealogy. But you know as well as I do that Y-DNA does not control autosomal traits, and that these are the result of a new mix with every generation. A trait can be passed down by a mother as well as a father! ;)

The clear message from Raghavan 2013 was that MA1 was not related to East Asians or SE Asians. It really could not be clearer. They made that point over and over. You can see it yourself in the various genome-wide comparisons that have been published. Those are the facts.

It came as a big surprise to a lot of people that this European-like individual could represent a population ancestral to Native Americans, but of course this was not the only population ancestral to them. There were other people in the mix who carried East Asian and SE Asian traits into the Americas. I forget the percentages estimated.

Completely agreed, I think the the physical features on these ancient samples should have very little weight on the history of haplogroups. Like you said, for all we know the features could have been passed down through the mother, not the father. Considering that this is the haplogroup R forum, I will say that just because the R variations found in Asia tend to carry fair features, it does not mean very much.

[Jean M]

I will say that just because the R variations found in Asia tend to carry fair features, it does not mean very much.

Certainly doesn't make Mal'ta boy fair in colouring. We know for sure that he wasn't. Roll on more ancient genomes in 2014. :)

[parasar]

I perfectly understand the temptation to link this or that Y-DNA haplogroup to this or that autosomal trait, especially where they occur together in a particular region - blond hair and Y-DNA I1 in Scandinavia for example. That is the sort of assumption often made by newcomers to genetic genealogy. But you know as well as I do that Y-DNA does not control autosomal traits, and that these are the result of a new mix with every generation. A trait can be passed down by a mother as well as a father! ;)

The clear message from Raghavan 2013 was that MA1 was not related to East Asians or SE Asians. It really could not be clearer. They made that point over and over. You can see it yourself in the various genome-wide comparisons that have been published. Those are the facts.

It came as a big surprise to a lot of people that this European-like individual could represent a population ancestral to Native Americans, but of course this was not the only population ancestral to them. There were other people in the mix who carried East Asian and SE Asian traits into the Americas. I forget the percentages estimated.

MA-1 has more affinity to modern Americans than to modern Europeans. So this American-like individual represents a population ancestral to Europeans. Or to be neutral, MA1 is an ancient E. Siberian representative of a population ancestral to both Europeans and Americans.

This may have come as a surprise to those looking for traits as result of more recent autosomal sweeps, but those looking at neutral Y-P(R,Q) were not surprised.

- - - Updated - - -


I would wonder if the fact that the Neanderthal range only stretched far to the east at the latitude of Siberia combined with the apparently higher levels of Neanderthal in SE Asian populations and the native Americans is not pretty good indirect evidence that some human groups mixed with Neanderthals in Siberia before they made the move from Siberia to SE Asia. I also think it is possible that the Denisovan DNA in some groups in SE Asia is also not indicative of a move from somewhere like Siberia into SE Asia.

- - - Updated - - -

I think Jean has pretty well shown the evidence is strong from Mal'ta that the affiliations genetically, dentally etc were north Eurasian and not east Asian. As strong as you could possibly hope for given the age of the remains. Add to this that the archaeology is pretty clearcut that there is a strong evidence that modern humans entered south-central Siberia from central Asia and Iran c. 40000BC but there is absolutely no suggestion of a south-east Asia or south Asia to Siberia move at this time. Indeed shortly after this period c. 3800-3700BC there was one of the worst volcanic winters and sharp Heinrich event type climatic downturns in Eurasia that a move north from south Asia or SE Asia into Siberia in the next few thousand years would seem incredibly unlikely while the reverse move would be very understandable. That downturn may have ended the Bohenicians in Europe.

It also seems to me that modern humans spreading by the south coast route from Africa would have had relatively little overlap with Neanderthals. So, it seems likely to me that the higher Neanderthal mixture in SE Asia and the Americas derives from mixing that took place in Siberia.

Please provide the source for that 42000ybp either from Iran or Central Asia.

[R.Rocca]

MA-1 has more affinity to modern Americans than to modern Europeans. So this American-like individual represents a population ancestral to Europeans. Or to be neutral, MA1 is an ancient E. Siberian representative of a population ancestral to both Europeans and Americans.

This may have come as a surprise to those looking for traits as result of more recent autosomal sweeps, but those looking at neutral Y-P(R,Q) were not surprised.

How is that?...
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png

[GailT]

MA-1 has more affinity to modern Americans than to modern Europeans. So this American-like individual represents a population ancestral to Europeans. Or to be neutral, MA1 is an ancient E. Siberian representative of a population ancestral to both Europeans and Americans.

Is there any evidence on when the admixture of the MA-1 population with Europeans and Native Americans occurred, i.e., whether it was before or after 24,000 ybp?

Given that MA-1's yDNA and mtDNA appear to have died out, it seems possible that MA-1 is not ancestral to any modern people, but that he shared a common ancestor with Europeans and Native Americans.

[parasar]

How is that?...
...



http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4151/zubo.png
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/4151/zubo.png

- - - Updated - - -


Is there any evidence on when the admixture of the MA-1 population with Europeans and Native Americans occurred, i.e., whether it was before or after 24,000 ybp?

Given that MA-1's yDNA and mtDNA appear to have died out, it seems possible that MA-1 is not ancestral to any modern people, but that he shared a common ancestor with Europeans and Native Americans.

True his particular line died; he was just a member of a population that is ancestral.
The fact that Motala12 has an ANE component tells us that admixture with Europeans is at least that old (~8000ybp), but likely not much older as other Europeans samples lacked that component. So a separation of ~16000 years from MA1 to admixture.

As far as Americans go, Raghavan et al posit that an MA1 type component entered Americans who I think they bracket with East Asians. This is their logic:

If the direction of gene flow was into the ancestors of MA-1 from the Native American population lineage, MA-1 would be expected to be closer to East Asians than to Papuans, much like modern-day Native Americans are ...It is unlikely that MA-1 could be equally close to Han and Papuan but at the same time closer to Karitiana without gene flow into Native Americans after their divergence from East Asian ancestors. Such gene flow is also more consistent with the temporal and geographical placement of MA-1 (carrying unprecedented affinity to both western Eurasians and Native Americans at 24 ka in southern Siberia), rather than extensive gene flow from the Native American lineage into MA-1 ancestors.

I think their logic is flawed, since if early Americans (perhaps still in Beringia 24000ybp) had no east Asian component at all (very likely) at that time, there is no reason MA1 would should be expected to be closer to East Asians than to Papuans.

[GailT]

I'm wondering if the admixture could be older, say a central Asian population 30,000 to 40,000 year ago that contributed DNA to the MA-1 population and to other Eurasian populations.

[parasar]

I'm wondering if the admixture could be older, say a central Asian population 30,000 to 40,000 year ago that contributed DNA to the MA-1 population and to other Eurasian populations.

If close to 30000ybp, yes possible, though it has to be rapid as by 30000 ybp we have humans in the Arctic at Yana (likely related to Mal'ta).
My thinking is that the movement is more likely from Markina Gora (Kostenki 14) than central asia.

Edit: Added.
THE MOST ANCIENT SITES OF KOSTENKI IN THE CONTEXT OF THE INITIAL UPPER PALEOLITHIC OF NORTHERN EURASIA

Markina gora (Kostenki 14). The radiocarbon dates of 36-37 kyr BP would seem to be the minimum age of the
assemblages recovered therein, because the stratigraphic, palynological and paleomagnetic evidence suggest an earlier chronology. They seem to represent isolated phenomena, both without ancestors or successors, and provide unusual “advanced” elements of material culture: bone tools in the first case, ornaments in the second ...These two assemblages would thus belong in the “Initial Upper Paleolithic” of Europe and the Near East or in its northern Asian equivalent, the Kara-Bom “stratum” ...

Chronometric results for the lower cultural layers of Markina gora (Kostenki 14) ...

one particular feature of its morphology — the presence of a deflective wrinkle — is diagnostic. This feature occurs in 70-80% of mongoloids but in only 5-6% of Europeans (and mainly among Finns and Lapps).

... The revision was triggered by the recognition that certain tenets of the traditional view had to be revised...

... Sites of the proposed IUP “stratum”


Conclusion ... The assemblages from the lower cultural layers of Kostenki 17 and Kostenki 14 have no analogs among known European industries of the EUP stage ...Both assemblages have no recognized predecessors in a more ancient stage nor do they have successors in more recent stages ... Both assemblages include components that, at such an early time, are unexpectedly “advanced” — ornaments at Spitsyn, and bone tools at Markina gora.

http://www.igespar.pt/media/uploads/trabalhosdearqueologia/33/8.pdf
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/3/882.full

[alan]

Its in 'The Upper Palaeolithic Beyond Western Europe'. It suggested the ultimate root of the south-central Siberian Early Upper Palaeolithic culture of c. 40000BC probably was cultures like Emiran in SW Asia and travelled through Iran then the Stan countries east of the Caspian to reach south-central Siberia. The Bohunician in Europe from c. 45000BC may have essentially a similar root in SW Asia but it died out. These very early cultures of anatomically modern humans in SW Asia, Europe, north central Asia and south-central Siberia had shared characteristics such as the continuing use of the Levallois technique that was used in the preceding middle palaeolithic by Neanderthal groups but there is little doubt that these very early upper palaeolithic cultures belonged to anatomically modern humans as proven at Emiran and also I think from memory this has been proven in Altai.

A volcanic catastrophe c. 38000-37000BC which overlaps with a very sharp climatic downturn known as Heinrich 4 m must have had an impact on these groups and Neanderthals. This paper is not a little old but it outlines some of the debate on this

http://192.102.233.13/books/gm/v139/139GM20/139GM20.pdf

However, the groups that reached south-central Siberia seem to have hung on and appear to have given rise to the middle upper palaeolithic culture of south-central Siberia which Mal'ta belonged to. Some people believe this downturn significantly squeezed the favoured environments of both anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals (soon leading to the extinction in most places of the latter) and would be probably the most likely period where the mixing between AMHs and Neanderthals was strongest. I feel that Altai in this period would have been a particularly likely area of stronger mixing.

As far as I understand the range of Neanderthals did not extend into south-central or south-east Asia and was primarily Europe, SW Asia and a northern thrust through the Stans into south-central Siberia. So, the stronger modern Neanderthal signal in east/SE Asia (and the native Americans I believe - correct me if I am wrong) is not an in-situ thing and must have come from populations who spread into this area. I do wonder if the most likely source of this stronger Neanderthal component in SE Asia is south-central Siberia/Altai and maybe north-central Asia as it is only those areas where the Neanderthal range extended anywhere near that far east.

I do fancy this elevated showing as potentially a result of MP peoples c. 40000BC or so passing from SW Asia through this eastern zone of Neanderthal settlement that ran through north central Asia into Siberia. If the Neanderthal mixture had simply come about early during the fast track (C etc?) southern route that AMHs took and a brief overlap with Neanderthals in SW Asia then why would the strong elevation of Neanderthal genes be present in east/SE Asia and the Americas?

This very early period is one I need to read up a bit more on but I do think that the inclusion of archaic hominid genes today when compared to the ranges of these groups when they lived can tell us something.


MA-1 has more affinity to modern Americans than to modern Europeans. So this American-like individual represents a population ancestral to Europeans. Or to be neutral, MA1 is an ancient E. Siberian representative of a population ancestral to both Europeans and Americans.

This may have come as a surprise to those looking for traits as result of more recent autosomal sweeps, but those looking at neutral Y-P(R,Q) were not surprised.

- - - Updated - - -



Please provide the source for that 42000ybp either from Iran or Central Asia.

[alan]

I think looking at Mal'ta as admixed between Europeans and some native American-ancestral group is probably the wrong way of looking at it. A better way IMO is to look at Mal'ta as a discrete population who themselves were drifted from an older ancestral Eurasian population and who in turn gave offshoot populations/fissions who also then drifted and each only preserved parts of the ancestral mix.

I think archaeology and climate provides a surprisingly clear picture of the demographic effects that led to the genetics of Mal'ta and Afontova Gora:

1. In terms of the deepest ancestry of upper paleolithic south-central Siberians, they likely arrived from Emiran type groups in SW Asia via Iran and the Stans c. 40000BC during the latter part of a warm phase of climate c. 45000-38000BC that permitted this.

2. I believe that a fairly dramatic bottleneck affected them due to dramatic climate downturn c. 38000-37000BC to cold arid conditions that must have really challenged them, caused a population crash, probably caused crowding into refugia around Altai and the southernmost fringe of Siberia, probably squashed them into close proximity to the Denisovans and Neanderthals and caused admixture.

3. Archaeology would suggest that Mal'ta boy belonged to a distinct south-central Siberian middle upper palaeolithic group who had come into existence about 8000 years before he lived. This probably derived from the earlier groups in the same area just discussed. The rise of this culture coincided with a warmer period c. 30000-25000BC when almost all RC dates for this culture fall. I would say this culture with its specifically south-central Siberian nature probably was a pretty major re-expansion from the previously bottlenecked group discussed above. his culture settled in parts of Siberia a little further north and probably experience a demographic expansion from 30-25000BC.

4. Mal'ta boy is literally the very last dated person of his culture, later by 3000 years than all the other dates which otherwise fall before 25000BC when the LGM started. So, he was almost certainly the result of a 3000 year bottleneck when the culture and population he belonged to must have dropped to very little indeed with others either dying out, fleeing to refuges to the south in Altai or even further south into southern parts of Asia. He would appear to me to be the last of a particularly hardy band who must have lived on the steppe tundra area bordering Balkai to the north or on the west side of the lake itself - either way that was a very difficult existence in 22000BC when the LGM was well underway. He is almost certainly the product of all sorts of drift and bottlenecking. No remains of his 8000 year long culture are dated after Mal'ta boy and its clear this group of ultra hardy hunters died out or fled south and culturally transformed after he lived. Everything in the archaeological and climate record would suggest to me that Mal'ta boy was likely extremely drifted/bottlenecked and may not have been entirely typical compared to the vast majority of his cousins who appear to have legged it south to Altai and the southern fringes of central Siberia 3000 years earlier. For this reason I actually think Afontova Gora might actually be a less drifted and more representative genetically of the upper paleolithic hunters of south central Siberia.

5. Afontova Gora 2 is a post-LGM individual whose ancestry and demographic dramas were probably similar to Mal'ta boy but culturally it is pretty clear his ancestors fled into the Altai area and overwintered the LGM for up to 10000 years before re-expanding after the LGM back towards where his remote ancestors had once lived. His ancestors may well have made the move to Altai a few thousand years before Mal'ta boy and therefore already been drifted from his line for perhaps 3000 years before Mal'ta boy lived. I think in probably fleeing south to the southermost fringes of Siberia/Altai etc likely was more in line with what most of the population did from 25000BC and therefore Afontova Gora probably lived in a more dense population of his relatives, would have been less drifted or bottlenecked than Mal'ta and therefore might be more 'typical' and representative of upper palaeolithic Siberians than Mal'ta.






Is there any evidence on when the admixture of the MA-1 population with Europeans and Native Americans occurred, i.e., whether it was before or after 24,000 ybp?

Given that MA-1's yDNA and mtDNA appear to have died out, it seems possible that MA-1 is not ancestral to any modern people, but that he shared a common ancestor with Europeans and Native Americans.

[Jean M]

Or to be neutral, MA1 is an ancient E. Siberian representative of a population ancestral to both Europeans and Americans.


Exactly. The point made by Raghavan 2013 was not that Mal'ta boy was exactly like modern Europeans, but that he was not related to modern Siberians, or East Asians. Therefore the similarities of Native Americans to East Asians and modern Siberians which had long been noted did not come from the Mal'ta boy population. It came from other components of the group which crossed Beringia.

- - - Updated - - -


I think looking at Mal'ta as admixed between Europeans and some native American-ancestral group is probably the wrong way of looking at it.

Certainly is. It puts the cart before the horse. Mal'ta was ancestral.

- - - Updated - - -


Is there any evidence on when the admixture of the MA-1 population with Europeans and Native Americans occurred

There was no mixture between Europeans and Native Americans in the creation of the MA1-type population. Native Americans did not exist at the time. The first human group to populate the Americas crossed the Bering land bridge millennia after the time of MA1.

The only direct relationship between MA1 and contemporary Europeans is that they all carried mtDNA U and they all descended from adventurers out of Africa who had reached Asia probably by way of Arabia. There is no evidence that the population represented by Mal'ta boy had any contact with Europeans until about 14,000 years after his time.

[Jean M]

Let's try this with colours. Say I am an artist with three pigments:

Red
Yellow
Blue

I mix red and yellow - I get orange
I mix blue and yellow - I get green.

So orange and green have something in common - it is the yellow element (think ANE).
But red and blue have nothing in common.

[Il Papà]

Exactly. The point made by Raghavan 2013 was not that Mal'ta boy was exactly like modern Europeans, but that he was not related to modern Siberians, or East Asians. Therefore the similarities of Native Americans to East Asians and modern Siberians which had long been noted did not come from the Mal'ta boy population. It came from other components of the group which crossed Beringia.


I thought that malt'a was related to some Siberian groups even if to a lesser extent than with native americans .

[Jean M]

I thought that malt'a was related to some Siberian groups even if to a lesser extent than with native americans .

I see that I should have phrased that differently. He does not fall within the usual range of modern south-central Siberians.


1375

To quote Raghavan 2013


the lack of genetic affinity between MA-1 and most populations in south-central Siberia today suggests that there was substantial gene flow into the region after the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), mostly probably from east Asian sources

[parasar]

Its in 'The Upper Palaeolithic Beyond Western Europe'. It suggested the ultimate root of the south-central Siberian Early Upper Palaeolithic culture of c. 40000BC probably was cultures like Emiran in SW Asia and travelled through Iran then the Stan countries east of the Caspian to reach south-central Siberia. The Bohunician in Europe from c. 45000BC may have essentially a similar root in SW Asia but it died out. These very early cultures of anatomically modern humans in SW Asia, Europe, north central Asia and south-central Siberia had shared characteristics such as the continuing use of the Levallois technique that was used in the preceding middle palaeolithic by Neanderthal groups but there is little doubt that these very early upper palaeolithic cultures belonged to anatomically modern humans as proven at Emiran and also I think from memory this has been proven in Altai.

A volcanic catastrophe c. 38000-37000BC which overlaps with a very sharp climatic downturn known as Heinrich 4 m must have had an impact on these groups and Neanderthals. This paper is not a little old but it outlines some of the debate on this

http://192.102.233.13/books/gm/v139/139GM20/139GM20.pdf

However, the groups that reached south-central Siberia seem to have hung on and appear to have given rise to the middle upper palaeolithic culture of south-central Siberia which Mal'ta belonged to. Some people believe this downturn significantly squeezed the favoured environments of both anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals (soon leading to the extinction in most places of the latter) and would be probably the most likely period where the mixing between AMHs and Neanderthals was strongest. I feel that Altai in this period would have been a particularly likely area of stronger mixing.

As far as I understand the range of Neanderthals did not extend into south-central or south-east Asia and was primarily Europe, SW Asia and a northern thrust through the Stans into south-central Siberia. So, the stronger modern Neanderthal signal in east/SE Asia (and the native Americans I believe - correct me if I am wrong) is not an in-situ thing and must have come from populations who spread into this area. I do wonder if the most likely source of this stronger Neanderthal component in SE Asia is south-central Siberia/Altai and maybe north-central Asia as it is only those areas where the Neanderthal range extended anywhere near that far east.

I do fancy this elevated showing as potentially a result of MP peoples c. 40000BC or so passing from SW Asia through this eastern zone of Neanderthal settlement that ran through north central Asia into Siberia. If the Neanderthal mixture had simply come about early during the fast track (C etc?) southern route that AMHs took and a brief overlap with Neanderthals in SW Asia then why would the strong elevation of Neanderthal genes be present in east/SE Asia and the Americas?

This very early period is one I need to read up a bit more on but I do think that the inclusion of archaic hominid genes today when compared to the ranges of these groups when they lived can tell us something.

Thanks.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qE4Rap1OlNEC&pg=PA35
The dates from Kara Bom actually seem close to Emiran if not older.
Plus there is nothing in Iran or Central Asia to show that a movement happened through that region.


Two exceptions are admitted in this binary structure: in a narrow area of south Moravia, the Bohunician industry is added to the Aurignacian-Szeletian opposition, traditional for central Europe; and, in the also narrow area of the Negev desert, the “Initial Upper Paleolithic” industry of Boker Tachtit is added to the opposition Aurignacian-Ahmarian as a third component. Practically all researchers dealing with this problem agree to the similarity between these two industries and to the fact that both cultural traditions seem to lack continuation.

And, Kostenki 14 and 17 are different and belong independently to the “Initial Upper Paleolithic” level.

ABSTRACT The aim of the paper is to discuss the
taxonomic position of the assemblages from the
lowermost cultural layers of Markina gora
(Kostenki 14). The radiocarbon dates of 36-37 kyr
BP would seem to be the minimum age of the
assemblages recovered therein, because the
stratigraphic, palynological and paleomagnetic
evidence suggest an earlier chronology. The “Early
Upper Paleolithic” is a binomial system where one
component is represented by the cross-continental
Aurignacian and the other by a series of local
transitional cultures. However, the material under
consideration, together with the assemblage from
the cultural layer II of Kostenki 17 (Spitsynian),
does not fit into this model. They seem to
represent isolated phenomena, both without
ancestors or successors, and provide unusual
“advanced” elements of material culture: bone
tools in the first case, ornaments in the second.
Thus, and in accordance with the dating evidence,
it seems preferable to think of these assemblages
as a manifestation of a more ancient system of
relations than to try to force them into that
binomial system. These two assemblages would
thus belong in the “Initial Upper Paleolithic” of
Europe and the Near East or in its northern Asian
equivalent, the Kara-Bom “stratum”. The “Initial
Upper Paleolithic” as a cross-continental horizon
appears to be a real unit of the division of the
Upper Paleolithic into periods, given that its
composition and structural relationships differ
from the traditional “Early Upper Paleolithic”.
http://www.igespar.pt/media/uploads/trabalhosdearqueologia/33/8.pdf


Afghanistan (Darra-i-Kur) through the Altai (Denisova cave) are thought to have had Neanderthals.






Homo sapiens Sites

Early Modern Human 200,000-present (arguably)

Africa: Pinnacle Point, (South Africa), Bouri (Ethiopia), Omo Kibish (Ethiopia)

Aterian: Grottes des Pigeons, Dar es-Soltan, Rhafas Cave (Morocco); Uan Tabu (Libya)
Howiesons Poort: Border Cave, Klasies River Cave, Rose Cottage Cave, Boomplaas Cave, Blombos Cave, Sibudu Cave (all in South Africa)
Asia: Niah Cave (Borneo), Jwalapuram (India), Denisova Cave (Siberia)

Middle East: Skhul Cave, Qafzeh Cave (both Israel)

Australia: Lake Mungo and Devil's Lair


Niah

The level with which the 'Deep Skull' is associated has been definitively dated to ca 40-44,000 years ago, making it the oldest established presence of anatomically modern humans outside of Africa.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/nterms/qt/niah_cave.htm

[alan]

its interesting that both the thrust across central Asia to Siberia and the Bohenician in Europe are widely now considered to trace back to the Emiran culture of SW Asia. An abstract posted in Dienekes discussed this:

Both the chronometric dating and the geographic distribution of archaeological entities indicate that modern human populations equipped themselves with blade products based on the Levallois method, a technology that emerged in North Africa (Taramsan) around 60 ka and then dispersed into the Eastern Mediterranean Levant (Emiran) between 49 and 48 ka. Blade technology further expanded into Eastern and Central Europe (Bachokirian and Bohunician) between 48 and 45 ka and into Southern Siberia (Kara-Bom horizons 6 and 5) at around 47 ka. The rapid expansion of modern humans into Western and Eastern Eurasia followed by the demise of archaic populations in these regions may imply technological and cognitive advantages of modern humans.


This is also very interesting on this subject and attempts to model the ecological niche of this group

http://caa2014.sciencesconf.org/browse/author?authorid=232498

The concept of an Emiran wave is interesting and it is worth speculating which y lines were involved. The Bohenician European thrust of this cultural group seems to have failed so I would imagine only very small traces of whatever line was involved would remain today. The sequence mentioned above tracks right back to Africa.

[alan]

Obi-Rakhmat Grotto in Uzbekistan is the site whose initial upper palaeolithic level may be another point on the the Emiran related spread

[parasar]

its interesting that both the thrust across central Asia to Siberia and the Bohenician in Europe are widely now considered to trace back to the Emiran culture of SW Asia. An abstract posted in Dienekes discussed this:

Both the chronometric dating and the geographic distribution of archaeological entities indicate that modern human populations equipped themselves with blade products based on the Levallois method, a technology that emerged in North Africa (Taramsan) around 60 ka and then dispersed into the Eastern Mediterranean Levant (Emiran) between 49 and 48 ka. Blade technology further expanded into Eastern and Central Europe (Bachokirian and Bohunician) between 48 and 45 ka and into Southern Siberia (Kara-Bom horizons 6 and 5) at around 47 ka. The rapid expansion of modern humans into Western and Eastern Eurasia followed by the demise of archaic populations in these regions may imply technological and cognitive advantages of modern humans.


This is also very interesting on this subject and attempts to model the ecological niche of this group

http://caa2014.sciencesconf.org/browse/author?authorid=232498

The concept of an Emiran wave is interesting and it is worth speculating which y lines were involved. The Bohenician European thrust of this cultural group seems to have failed so I would imagine only very small traces of whatever line was involved would remain today. The sequence mentioned above tracks right back to Africa.

"then dispersed into the Eastern Mediterranean Levant (Emiran) between 49 and 48 ka. Blade technology further expanded into Eastern and Central Europe (Bachokirian and Bohunician) between 48 and 45 ka and into Southern Siberia (Kara-Bom horizons 6 and 5) at around 47 ka."

The fact that they are in such widely dispersed regions almost at the same instant, indicates to me that if they are related, they are all coming from another location. I think that Europe is the source for Emiran, but I will check information on Taramsan.
The earliest truly modern human specimen of the gracile variety I still think is LM3.

Along with the Taramsan material at Dienekes we also see:

The evolutionary history and the pattern of biological diversity of modern humans in Southeast Asia has long been regarded as resulting of two major migrations waves. In this hypothesis it is generally considered that a first wave of migration (generally referred as “Australo-Melanesians”) reached Australia around 60000 BP while the second wave (often referred as “Mongoloids”) is correlated to a demic diffusion of the Neolithic from a Southeast China homeland which started around mid-Holocene.

[alan]

Parasar, I have finally got round to digging out my copy of The Early Upper Palaeolithic beyond western Europe by Braningham. Kuhn and Kerry. The relevant chapter is by Ted Goebel, the leading expert on the Siberian Palaeolithic. He identifies the initial palaeolithic siberian groups across central Siberia, especially in Altai and Transbaikal. He states on p 194 'on the grounds that early upper palaeolithic industries are fundamentally different from the Mousterian industries, but very similar to contemporaneous initial upper palaeolithic industries of Uzbekistan, Iran, and Israel I have argued that the transition to upper palaeolithic around 42000bp reflects rapid replacement of authochthonous middle palaeolithic populations by an intrusive upper palaeolithic population that presumably migrated from central Asia and ultimately south-western Asia'.

I would add that since he wrote that, his view that this involved AMHs has been proven and the dates have been pushed a few thousand years back further in terms of calibrated radicarbon.

"then dispersed into the Eastern Mediterranean Levant (Emiran) between 49 and 48 ka. Blade technology further expanded into Eastern and Central Europe (Bachokirian and Bohunician) between 48 and 45 ka and into Southern Siberia (Kara-Bom horizons 6 and 5) at around 47 ka."

The fact that they are in such widely dispersed regions almost at the same instant, indicates to me that if they are related, they are all coming from another location. I think that Europe is the source for Emiran, but I will check information on Taramsan.
The earliest truly modern human specimen of the gracile variety I still think is LM3.

Along with the Taramsan material at Dienekes we also see:

[parasar]

Parasar, I have finally got round to digging out my copy of The Early Upper Palaeolithic beyond western Europe by Braningham. Kuhn and Kerry. The relevant chapter is by Ted Goebel, the leading expert on the Siberian Palaeolithic. He identifies the initial palaeolithic siberian groups across central Siberia, especially in Altai and Transbaikal. He states on p 194 'on the grounds that early upper palaeolithic industries are fundamentally different from the Mousterian industries, but very similar to contemporaneous initial upper palaeolithic industries of Uzbekistan, Iran, and Israel I have argued that the transition to upper palaeolithic around 42000bp reflects rapid replacement of authochthonous middle palaeolithic populations by an intrusive upper palaeolithic population that presumably migrated from central Asia and ultimately south-western Asia'.

I would add that since he wrote that, his view that this involved AMHs has been proven and the dates have been pushed a few thousand years back further in terms of calibrated radicarbon.

As I mentioned previously, I do not doubt that the industries are similar as changes seem to appear almost simultaneously everywhere - Europe, West Asia, South Asia, Siberia - between 50000ybp and 40000ybp, it is just that Goebel is stuck with the 50000ybp OoA thinking. There is no evidence that any of the aforementioned places had humans living between about 100000 to 50000ybp.

So where did these people simultaneous appear from? Africa is one possibility, East Asia is the second, and SE Asia-Oceania the third as all three of them had human populations in the period immediately preceding 50000ybp. It is my contention that these people did not come from Africa in the period immediately preceding 50000ybp, but came from a place where all other lineages but mtDNA M and N had died out, and therefore Africa does not qualify. I see two main movements of humans going west after the first 100000ybp OoA going east. First is N coming from SE Asia-Oceania followed by M from East Asia.



The African contribution totalled 12%, with the sub-Saharan Africa (7%) contribution, represented by L macrohaplogroup, being only slightly higher than the M1 and U6 specific North-African contribution (5%). A small Indian influence (3%) was also detected; however, no archaic N and/or M autochthonous lineages in the Arabian Peninsula were found. Although the still large confidence intervals, the coalescence and phylogeography of (preHV)1 haplogroup (accounting for 18 % of Saudi Arabian lineages) matches a Neolithic expansion in Saudi Arabia. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/32/

As yet, I have seen nothing from current dna or ancient DNA that goes against my line of thinking as near eastern current and ancient DNA does include L(x M, N) lines. On the Y side if say a basal P or even M526 line is found in the ancient near-east 50000 ybp, I will immediately change my mind.

[alan]

I have always considered P as probably first occurring somewhere between Iran and Siberia. M-M4 as well as being found where most M is in the Pacific, is also found on the northern border of Afghanistan among the Hazara. That is a possible trace of a small quantity of M that didnt make the journey down to Papua New Guinea etc. So, I would feel the MP node probably occurred at the west end of the part of central Asia north of the inner Asian mountains.

[newtoboard]

I have always considered P as probably first occurring somewhere between Iran and Siberia. M-M4 as well as being found where most M is in the Pacific, is also found on the northern border of Afghanistan among the Hazara. That is a possible trace of a small quantity of M that didnt make the journey down to Papua New Guinea etc. So, I would feel the MP node probably occurred at the west end of the part of central Asia north of the inner Asian mountains.

So the presence of M in the newest group in the region is evidence of an ancient presence? The Hazara have yDNA A, B, I2 and M73 as well. Why not argue that Humans originated in the region in addition to Paleolithic Europeans and R1b as well?

[GailT]

moved to new topics on mtDNA M&N

[parasar]

I have always considered P as probably first occurring somewhere between Iran and Siberia. M-M4 as well as being found where most M is in the Pacific, is also found on the northern border of Afghanistan among the Hazara. That is a possible trace of a small quantity of M that didnt make the journey down to Papua New Guinea etc. So, I would feel the MP node probably occurred at the west end of the part of central Asia north of the inner Asian mountains.

As newtoboard indicated, presence in the Hazara (1/60 Hazara, 1/8706 total) actually points to an input from outside that region. I have to check this particular sample though, as I have had doubts about few of the samples labelled Hazara. But even if this is indeed M, the Hazara cluster outside on almost every metric. Though now limited to a few words, as late as a few hundred years back some of them spoke a Mongol dialect. Babar: "In the western mountains are the Hazara and Nikudari tribes, some of whom speak the Mughali language."

If the sample is genuine, we do have to see this sample as an intrusive isolate in light of:

M4
Found frequently in New Guinea and Melanesia, with a moderate distribution in neighboring parts of Indonesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia. Haplogroup M-M4[Phylogenetics 1] was also found at 1.7% in the Hazara at Balkh, Mazar-e Sharif (Haber 2012).
Una 100% (Kayser 2003)
Ketengban 100% (Kayser 2003)
Awyu 100% (Kayser 2003)
Citak 86% (Kayser 2003)
Asmat 75% (Kayser 2003)
West New Guinea
West New Guinea lowlands/coast 77.5% (Kayser 2003)
West New Guinea highlands 74.5% (Kayser 2003)
Papua New Guinea
Papua New Guinea coast 29% (Kayser 2003)
Papua New Guinea highlands 35.5% (Kayser 2003)
Mappi 70% (Kayser 2003)
Kombai/Korowai 46% (Kayser 2003)
Tolai (New Britain) 31% (Kayser 2003)
Trobriand Islands 30% (Kayser 2003)
Moluccas 21% (Kayser 2003)
M-P34[edit]
M-P34[Phylogenetics 2] is the most frequently occurring Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup in Western New Guinea. It is also found with moderate frequency in neighboring parts of Indonesia (Maluku, Nusa Tenggara) and throughout Papua New Guinea, including offshore islands (Karafet 2005 and Kayser 2008).
M-P87[edit]
M-P87(xM104/P22) has been found in approximately 18% (20/109) of a pool of samples from New Ireland, approximately 12% (5/43) of a sample of Lavongai from New Hanover, approximately 5% (19/395) of a pool of samples from New Britain (and, in particular, in about 24% (15/63) of Baining from East New Britain), in one Saposa individual from northern Bougainville, and in another individual from the north coast of Papua New Guinea (Scheinfeldt 2006).
M-P22[edit]
M-P22 (AKA M-M104)[Phylogenetics 3] is found frequently in populations of the Bismarck Archipelago and Bougainville Island, with a moderate distribution in New Guinea, Fiji, Tonga, East Futuna, and Samoa (Kayser 2008 and Scheinfeldt 2006).
M-M353[edit]
Found at a low frequency in Fiji and East Futuna (Kayser 2006).
M-M177[edit]
M-M177 (AKA M-SRY9138)[Phylogenetics 4] is found in one Nasioi individual from the eastern coast of Bougainville and in one individual from Malaita Province of the Solomon Islands (Cox 2006).
M-P117[edit]
Found frequently in populations of New Britain, and also observed occasionally in northern Bougainville, Fiji, and East Futuna (Kayser 2008 and Scheinfeldt 2006).
M-M16[edit]
Please expand this section on M-M16.[Phylogenetics 5]
M-M83[edit]
Please expand this section on M-M83.[Phylogenetics 6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_M-P256#CITEREFHaber2012

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Melanesia_M_ADN-Y.PNG

[newtoboard]

So the presence of M in the newest group in the region is evidence of an ancient presence? The Hazara have yDNA A, B, I2 and M73 as well. Why not argue that Humans originated in the region in addition to Paleolithic Europeans and R1b as well?

Just to be clear I agree with alan. Just disagree with the presence of M in the Hazara as evidence.

[parasar]

Just to be clear I agree with alan. Just disagree with the presence of M in the Hazara as evidence.
alan was using that M sample to establish MP in that region.
So what else is the evidence that supports the birth of MP there?

[newtoboard]

How about the plethora of archeological evidence he has provided? Sorry if I'm not buying your SE asiatic origin for everything. You have argued for a SE asiatic origin of the farmers at Mehgarah to things like mtDNA M.

[parasar]

How about the plethora of archeological evidence he has provided? Sorry if I'm not buying your SE asiatic origin for everything. You have argued for a SE asiatic origin of the farmers at Mehgarah to things like mtDNA M.

As I have pointed out, in west, central, south Asia or Siberia, none of the evidence predates 50000 ybp, not one. And if, OoA happened 50000ybp, then I think alan has a point.
In fact that is the same evidence I have used to make my point in other threads, that there is a sudden change in all those regions mentioned at about the same time, pointing to an influx from elsewhere.

Edit:
I also would like to say that my opinion is no longer not in the mainstream.
You should probably bring it up also with Dr. Hammer who is one of the principal architects of the Y tree as to why he now thinks ancestors of R came out of SE Asia.

http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-r-and-q-in-europe.jpg?w=584&h=438
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-hap-r-dist.jpg?w=584&h=438

[parasar]

... I have to check this particular sample though, as I have had doubts about few of the samples labelled Hazara. ]

Among the Hazara we also see:
M60 11 12 13 28 23 15 15 11 11 17.2 15 10 20 11 10 11 13 10 23
M60 11 12 13 28 23 15 15 11 14 17.2 15 10 20 11 10 11 13 10 23
M60 11 12 13 28 23 15 15 11 14 17.2 15 10 20 11 10 11 13 10 22

The three look related and about their provenance Haber has this to say:

three Hazara subjects belonged to haplogroup B-M60, which is very rare outside Africa. RM network shows that the subjects had a recent founding ancestor from East Africa, which could have been brought to Afghanistan through slave trade. This shows that the genetic ethnic boundaries have been selectively permeable

For the Hazara, especially odd (along with that M-M186) are those three B-M60, and the complete absence (0/60) of any M73, a common Turko-Mongol signature. So there appears to be some non-Turkomongol input into the Hazara especially from Africa.

[alan]

I didnt mean they literally had been in that spot since ancient times. I just meant that Hazaras was a datapoint way to the north-west of New Guinea etc.


So the presence of M in the newest group in the region is evidence of an ancient presence? The Hazara have yDNA A, B, I2 and M73 as well. Why not argue that Humans originated in the region in addition to Paleolithic Europeans and R1b as well?

[Ian B]

Fire Haired.

Hooray, a fellow traveller at last.

I have had this belief for some time. It lends credence to my theory on the origins of the Celts.

[alan]

I dont have much confidence in the M point in Hazaras but I just thought I would note its strange occurrence among them. Its possible that MP split very early or its possible neither expanded to survivable levels before they reached areas where they are now known.

Its also important to remember that in some areas it is simply impossible for present day populations to represent those of the same area back in the upper palaeolithic at c. 45-38000BC when you consider the climate traumas any group living in northern Eurasia experienced c. 38000BC and of course again in the LGM c. 25000 onwards. These events would have put humans in northern zones under huge pressure to move to nearby refugia, move much further south, adapt or perish.

I am still learning the details of the Heinrich 4 climate downturn but it was severe and possibly had a similar effect as the LGM in places. In Europe it probably spelled the beginning of the end for Neanderthals, killed off the Initial Upper Palaeolithic groups like the Bohunician and at the same time provided an opportunity for groups like the proto-Aurignacians of east-central Europe who had adapted to the cold to expand across Europe.

We know of course that the LGM led to the virtual abandonment of the Stan countries between the Caspian and Altai for perhaps 10000 years or more and if there was any survival at all in that zone it would have been at the southernmost extreme where the inner Asian mountains and north central Asia met. Otherwise they probably exited the zone south through the mountains into south Asia. The only reason that groups survived in Altai and Baikal was that those areas had microclimates that were not so bad and were at the eastern end of the steppe tundra rather than the north central Asian desert in the LGM.

I would think that a similar effect to the LGM possibly impacted c. 38/37000BC on the north central Asian (Caspian to Altai Stan countries) part of the Initial Upper Palaeolithic groups who had headed from SW Asia to Siberia through that area c. 45-40000BC. If the branching had happened in a similar way to the spread of the Initial Upper Palaeolithic groups as shown by archaeological remains then it would be fair to imagine a broadly similar sequence of yDNA branching going from SW Asia to Iran to the Stan countries to Altai to Baikal. We know from archaeology that had reached Transbaikal around 40000BC a littlee before the Heinrich 4 climate downturn. So, it could be argued that at one time there would have been a nice steady y lineage fission from SW Asia to Transbaikal that echoed the archaeologically detected movement. However, given what subsequently happened to the climate c. 38-37000BC in the shorter term and then the LGM there is no way on earth we can expect modern populations to represent those of the initial, early or middle Upper Palaeolithic in the same areas when those areas were largely abandoned except a few refugia like Altai and Baikal.

[alan]

I took note when I saw that but I feel it is taking modern populations too literally as representatives of the past. It takes no account of the evacuation of most of Asia north of the inner Asian mountains in the LGM and possibly in early downturns like Heinrich 4. Essentially Asia north of the inner Asian mountains has been almost entirely resettled in post-LGM times and modern populations might or might not tell us something about the closest refugia.


As I have pointed out, in west, central, south Asia or Siberia, none of the evidence predates 50000 ybp, not one. And if, OoA happened 50000ybp, then I think alan has a point.
In fact that is the same evidence I have used to make my point in other threads, that there is a sudden change in all those regions mentioned at about the same time, pointing to an influx from elsewhere.

Edit:
I also would like to say that my opinion is no longer not in the mainstream.
You should probably bring it up also with Dr. Hammer who is one of the principal architects of the Y tree as to why he now thinks ancestors of R came out of SE Asia.

http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-r-and-q-in-europe.jpg?w=584&h=438
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-hap-r-dist.jpg?w=584&h=438

[palamede]

I remind you
http://www.livescience.com/22529-oldest-bones-modern-humans-asia.html

[parasar]

I remind you
http://www.livescience.com/22529-oldest-bones-modern-humans-asia.html

Thanks. It will be nice if they manage to extract enough endogenous DNA.
We have modern humans in Australia, Laos, China (considered to be as old as 100000ybp), Malaysia (Niah), Philippines (Luzon), and even potentially South America very early.


It suggests that humans arrived on Luzon, the largest and northernmost major island in the Philippines, at least 67,000 years ago, tens of thousands of years earlier than had been thought.
"The arrival of people in Australia 50,000 to 60,000 years ago is a good comparison," says expedition member Florent Detroit of the National Museum for Natural History in Paris, France. We have no idea how settlers got to Australia, he says, but we know from the archaeological evidence that they reached it settled it.

"It seems coherent for us to think that in south-east Asia and Australia, humans had sea-faring capabilities by 60,000 to 70,000 years ago."
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19003-mystery-seafaring-ancestor-found-in-the-philippines.html#.UvkDqGJdXsg



(Phys.org) —A team of Uruguayan researchers working at the Arroyo del Vizcaíno site near Sauce, in Uruguay has found evidence in ancient sloth bones that suggests humans were in the area as far back as 30,000 years ago. The team describes their evidence and findings in a paper they've had published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences.... More recent evidence has begun to suggest that humans were living in South America far earlier than that—just last month a team of excavators in Brazil discovered cave paintings and ceramics that have been dated to 30,000 years ago and now, in this new effort, the research team has found more evidence of people living in Uruguay around the same time...The researchers suggest that if humans were indeed in living in South America as far back as 30,000 years ago, they likely arrived there by floating over from Africa—the prevailing winds would have carried them directly there without the need of paddles or sails.

http://phys.org/news/2013-11-ancient-giant-sloth-bones-humans.html

[newtoboard]

As I have pointed out, in west, central, south Asia or Siberia, none of the evidence predates 50000 ybp, not one. And if, OoA happened 50000ybp, then I think alan has a point.
In fact that is the same evidence I have used to make my point in other threads, that there is a sudden change in all those regions mentioned at about the same time, pointing to an influx from elsewhere.

Edit:
I also would like to say that my opinion is no longer not in the mainstream.
You should probably bring it up also with Dr. Hammer who is one of the principal architects of the Y tree as to why he now thinks ancestors of R came out of SE Asia.

http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-r-and-q-in-europe.jpg?w=584&h=438
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-hap-r-dist.jpg?w=584&h=438

How accurate is the second map when it is arguing R is completely absent from Iran, South Asia and parts of Eastern Europe?

[parasar]

How accurate is the second map when it is arguing R is completely absent from Iran, South Asia and parts of Eastern Europe?

That R should have been labeled R1b in line with his presentation.

[newtoboard]

That R should have been labeled R1b in line with his presentation.

So which population in Poland, Latvia and the Czech Republic are high in R1b then? And the red shaded area east of Turkmenistan seems to be Tajikistan, Kyryzstan, N. Afghanistan and the Tibetan Plateau?

[Generalissimo]

That R map is the R1b global map from Eupedia. No idea if it's accurate, but Poland looks off. There is a fairly high level of U106 along the lower Vistula, but the area in the west around Poznan has more R1b than that.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png

[newtoboard]

Still the logic that MP is East Eurasian on the basis that its NO and S brothers are is poor. The same logic could be used to assign a fully non East Eurasian for K given K is the odd man out in GHIJK since G, I and J are West Eurasian and H is South Asian.

[parasar]

That R map is the R1b global map from Eupedia. No idea if it's accurate, but Poland looks off. There is a fairly high level of U106 along the lower Vistula, but the area in the west around Poznan has more R1b than that.
...

Looks like the same map, the caption of the bottom left is not clear enough on the screen shot.

[parasar]

Still the logic that MP is East Eurasian on the basis that its NO and S brothers are is poor. The same logic could be used to assign a fully non East Eurasian for K given K is the odd man out in GHIJK since G, I and J are West Eurasian and H is South Asian.

Not only NO and S, but K1, K2, K3, K4 that have not been given there own letters.

Yes I would agree on the K part to some extent. As I had mentioned in connection with K - "On the other hand at the K level, ie, upstream from M526, we have lines that are not in SE Asia. Therefore a good argument could be made that M526 itself may have split somewhere in South Asia or West Asia, K-M9 to M526, L, T. But even this is not certain as K-M9 lines are also quite diverse in SE Asia, and M526, L, and T would just be a subset of that diversity."

We will need to see how the F phylogeny pans out.

On another point I slightly disagree with Dr. Hammer when he says: "SE Asian Origin of Hg P"
This to me is not proven and also looks unlikely. The P node could have been born in SE Asia, but South Asia, Siberia, or Eastern Europe are better possibilities. But we are nowhere close to pinpointing, we could draw a triangle from Kostenki to Yana to Balangoda, a vast region for the origin of P.

[ArmandoR1b]

Looks like the same map, the caption of the bottom left is not clear enough on the screen shot.

It is the same map. See page 20 at https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/docs/2013/Hammer_M269_Diversity_in_Europe.pdf

[Humanist]

No idea if it's [the map] accurate...

It is not.

[Silesian]

So which population in Poland, Latvia and the Czech Republic are high in R1b then?

L51+ or L51- ?


And the red shaded area east of Turkmenistan seems to be Tajikistan, Kyryzstan, N. Afghanistan and the Tibetan Plateau?



Kyryzstan has R. The variance in ANE R1b areas adjacent Hindu Kush:
Afghan,Jowzjan Province, Khazakhstan and Greater Khorasan, Iran Gilan, Azerbaijan.
R1b* 343 + R1b-2105 + R1b-M73 + R1b M269* [perhaps even R1b V-88 exists in this region also] very little if any R1b L51+ .
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/US_Army_ethnolinguistic_map_of_Afghanistan_--_circa_2001-09.jpg

[parasar]

...

Kyryzstan has R*.

[/IMG]
R1-M173 is a possibility too.

Edit: They did type M207 & M479 so it does look like R*

[alan]

I remember spotting him a few months back. Its only one guy but when its so incredibly rare even on guy is significant. Wonder how he related to the Mal'ta boy? I suppose at least they share the fact that their lines broke off before R1 developed which seems to have happened around 25000BC according to some recent SNP counting attempts on this site.

Only problem is, as with all of central Asia and the steppe, the area has such a very complex history of nomadic peoples its not at all safe to assume deep local roots. I would still tend to think the history of that area would make an origin for the R* guy in Siberia or central Asia between Altai and Iran most likely. That doesnt help much but it is something and at least Kyrgyzstan is not too far from the Altai area where R* was probably kicking about in the Palaeolithic.


R1-M173 is a possibility too.

Edit: They did type M207 & M479 so it does look like R*

[parasar]

...

On another point I slightly disagree with Dr. Hammer when he says: "SE Asian Origin of Hg P"
This to me is not proven and also looks unlikely. The P node could have been born in SE Asia, but South Asia, Siberia, or Eastern Europe are better possibilities. But we are nowhere close to pinpointing, we could draw a triangle from Kostenki to Yana to Balangoda, a vast region for the origin of P.

FWIW, I really don't fully understand it:


Our results support that a Dene-Yeniseian connection more likely represents radiation out of Beringia with back-migration into central Asia than a migration from central or western Asia to North America ... radiation out of Beringia with both eastward migrations into North America and westward migration into Asia rather than a unidirectional migration from Asia to North America. ... The result showed that the topology that modeled the out-of-central Asia hypotheses did not explain the data better. In fact the model without this constraint showed an average marginal likelihood over 8.5 log units higher than the model with the constraint, providing strong support for the radiation out-of-Beringia hypothesis.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0091722

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0091722.g004&representation=PNG_M
Dene-Yeniseian Out-of-Beringia

[venustas]

It of course would be scientific to explain malta as R2 while R2 becomes R1b and R1 becomes R1a.
However, ancient haplogroups could change the phylogeny of all haplogroups. Therefore all anciently discovered divergent and theorized clades of any haplogroup should be referred to with a 0 afterwards.
I refer to Mal'tas clade of R y-dna as R0M and the original R man’s haplogroup as R00.Of course I would like to place F in front of all of these but that is a different story (F0R0M F0R1a1a ect)

R2 is 261 snps away from R00 (of course the real # is much higher then these)
Mal'ta's R0M is 71 SNPS away from R00
Mal'ta's R0M is 260 SNPS away from R2.


If Mal'tas R0M was only 1 snp away from R00 it would suggest that R would only be 24,000 years old. However this is not the case.
If Mal'ta was 100 snps away from R00 and R2 was 200 I would assume that R was 48,kya (x2)
R2 is 3.67 times as divergent as haplogroup R0M. If it was
I will estimate the age of R when I have more time.
However I will estimate two clades one clade is (F)R1'R2 the ancestor of all known living R males all R*S have been as R2S, however it is very possible that P*(s) are another type of R which would not belong to this clade.
The other R clade (F)R0 would be just about as old as P and include all males at all times who ever belonged to R including malta and thousands of men older than him.

A interesting thing I discovered is that R0M is the least divergent haplogroup that has been discovered as of 2014.

For example assume that the common ancestor of C-V20 and (F)R is 3000 generations back.
assume median father age is always 25 (which it is not always)
Me and a living male with C-V20 are apart by 6000 generations. However a living male with CV20 is only apart from malta by 5040 generations because mal'ta only had 2040 (instead of 3000) generations to mutate since the break of the great Eurasian macro haplogroups (C,F clade ). I am 5720 generations away from La Brana. La Brana is only 4760 generations away from mal'ta while I (F0R1a1a-Z280) am 6000 generations away from a living male with C-V20.

All modern haplogroups are basically the same basal, whether they are O3a or A00. The least basal modern haplogroup (according to both poznik and the mal'ta chart) appears to be (F)G2a (not sure about (F)G1) this is because apparently (F)G2a has mutated less. The basalness of (F)G2a suggests it may be the first haplogroup in the world to practice agriculture, (which led to a higher age of fathers which would lead to less mutations in a given amount of time simply due to a smaller amount of generations). Of course (F)G2a is no where near as basal as (F)R0M.

My y-dna is closer to MAL'TA's y-dna genetically than I am to a living male with R2 or R1b. Even though mal'ta is phylogenically farther away. R2 and R1b individuals would also see this effect.
*R1a's distance from MAL'TA (260 SNPS) estimated because this is the distance from R2 to mal'ta.
*R1a's distance from R2 (392 SNPS)
*R1a about 300-310 SNPS from R1b. (estimated because 155*2 at least 282)


source for snps the haplgoroup R chart found on=http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-malta-and-afontova-gora-a-full-account/

[alan]

It seems to me that Mal'ta boy with his middle upper palaeolithic background likely ultimately descends, along with that culture from the early/initial upper Palaeolithic culture of the same area around Baikal and Altai that spread through that zone c. 43000-40000BC. I would imagine we must be talking P people as R was still a long way from existing at that period. Anyway, I have noticed a couple of archaeological papers relevant to the first modern humans spreading into Siberia have come out in the last month or two.

I noticed two very new papers behind the pay wall that discusses the initial upper palaeolithic phenomenon. One specifically on central Asia and Siberia which I would love to read.

This paper explores the modes of dispersal, variability, and chronology of the Initial Upper Paleolithic (IUP) of Southern Siberia and the northern Central Asia. Several types of tool-markers, a peculiar type of reduction technology and two types of adornments, specific to the area under study, are distinguished. Based on current data, the author concludes that about 45,000 years ago, there was a rapid eastern movement of populations from a core region in part of the mountains of the Russian Altai towards central Mongolia and southwestern Transbaikal. In these regions, about 43,000–40,000 years ago, a second center of a blade-based IUP appeared. It was characterized by specific forms of tools, reduction technologies and personal adornments similar to those in the core region. Thus, the transfer of a whole set of a unified cultural tradition occurred. Therefore, based on the geographic and temporal distribution of tool-markers, ancient populations moved along the most southern of the possible routes, i.e. over the territory of present-day Mongolia and northwest China.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40618214002559

The other seems to take an anti-migratory stance in terms of the general phenomenon of the the group of similar Initial Upper Palaeolithic cultures like those of Siberia, SW Asia and the Bohunician in Europe and argues convergence - I am skeptical of that.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40618214003498

[parasar]

I think this map needs some serious revision. As I had noted in my post above there is just no evidence from India prior to Orsang. Which means India did not participate in the AMH occupation of SE Asia and Australia as the map depicts. This actually has been known from the very beginning when the OoA coastal theory was proposed - that India is a complete blank for AMH in the proposed period of coastal migration.

These same folk who entered India in the Upper Paleolithic also entered Europe, and also E and N Africa. Somewhere in East or SE Asia (cf. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/45/19201 ) we should look for the origins of both M and N. Movement of N was the first one followed by M.

This proposal by Mishra, et. al., which while not covering mtDNA M and N explicitly, looks more logical to me. One change I would make is on #3, with the arrow coming into India from Sunda rather than from Southern Africa.
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0069280.g002&representation=PNG_M
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0069280#B56

Africa to SE Asia and a radiation from there is looking quite possible.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Text.pdf
"Malaysian Chr Y sequence data (Wong et al. 2013) reveals a split in
haplogroup F that predates the G/HT split by one mutation, F1329 (Figure S13). This finding is
in accordance with the two Lahu F2-M427 individuals reported in Poznik et al. (2013) as having
an ancestral allele of M578. In combination with the presence of deep branches of K in Southeast
Asia, this further strengthens the model proposing that the initial radiation of the non-African
Chr Y lineages may have taken place somewhere in Southeast Asia (Karafet et al. 2014).
Following PhyloTreeY (van Oven et al. 2014) we re-define the internal structure of haplogroup
H-M3035 that now incorporates South Asian lineages H1-M69 (predominantly found in Indian
peninsula), H2-B108 (detected in one of our Burmese samples) and H3-Z5857 (India) that
previously (Karafet et al. 2008) were recognized as F* (Figure S23). Although all F* lineages
from South Asia in our data belong to H the phylogenetic depth (40-44 kya) of its division into
three primary subclades suggests that their distribution patterns may also be considered
informative about the process of initial radiation of non-African Y chromosomes (Figure S9).
Although absent in 728 South Asian samples (Sengupta et al. 2006) the rare H4-M282/P96
lineage (van Oven et al. 2014) has been observed in two Iranians (Regueiro et al. 2006), one
French (Poznik et al. 2013) and one Dutch individuals (Karafet et al. 2008) as well as several
low coverage Sardinian sequences (Francalacci et al. 2013). Intersecting the Sardinian variants
with our data allows us to approximately position the H4 lineage within haplogroup H (Figure
S23)."

Also M282/P96 is clearly nested within the Malayan H and main H lines in South Asia.

[parasar]

I agree, each and every confirmed R looks Europe derived. Plus nothing much can be gleaned from that singleton Guaymi R1a sample. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~tgschurr/pdf/Schurr%20&%20Sherry%202004.pdf

Another interesting South American sample: R1a1 Z93 Y3.
YF19087 from Minas Gerais, Brazil
Analysis still in progress.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3/

See also:
https://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-links-indigenous-brazilians-to-polynesians-1.12710
"The mtDNA from 12 of the skulls matched a well-known Palaeoamerican haplogroup. But mtDNA from two of the skulls included a haplogroup commonly found in Polynesia, Easter Island and other Pacific island archipelagos, the researchers report today in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences1. A separate lab confirmed the result with samples from one of the skulls, indicating that the ‘Polynesian haplogroup’ did not result from contamination, the researchers contend.

“But to call that haplogroup Polynesian is a bit of a misnomer,” says Lisa Matisoo-Smith, a molecular anthropologist at the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. The haplogroup is also found — albeit at a lower frequency — in populations living as far west as Madagascar.

Nevertheless, says Pena, it is a mystery how DNA from Palaeoamericans living in southeastern Brazil could include gene sequences typically found in Pacific islanders."

[parasar]

I agree, each and every confirmed R looks Europe derived. Plus nothing much can be gleaned from that singleton Guaymi R1a sample. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~tgschurr/pdf/Schurr%20&%20Sherry%202004.pdf

Another interesting one:
R-FGC50249 Native American
familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R
https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp?chromosome=Y&snp=FGC50249

R-FGC50245, FGC50284. FGC50343. FGC50245. FGC50342. FGC50249. FGC50375. FGC50294. FGC50291. FGC50381.
R-FGC50245 FGC50284 * FGC50245 * FGC50343+10 SNPs formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybpinfo
• id:YF06605PAK [PK-JK]
• id:ERR1812188 India
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC50339/