View Full Version : New R1b-P312 Subclade project at FTDNA for the ZZ37/38 Subclade

07-25-2018, 07:56 PM
A new project has been started at FTDNA for those in the ZZ37/ZZ38 subclade of P312. Together they comprise the vast majority of those who were characterized as P312*.


Anyone who has tested positive for either ZZ37 or ZZ38 should join. There seems to be some confusion whether these have an equivalent position or one is upstream from the other. The majority (though not all) of those in this category fall into either the S27900 subclade, which is closely but not exclusively associated with Wales, or the Z30600 subclade (downstream of L624?), which is largely but again not exclusively associated with Scotland. I strongly suspect that ZZ37/38 will turn out to be much more numerous than many realize. Some of these individuals have several pages of 67 marker matches.

07-25-2018, 09:18 PM
For those of you not aware, ZZ37/ZZ38 is the sibling of DF99 and ZZ11. ZZ11’s children are DF27 and U152.

07-26-2018, 10:31 PM
It occurred to me that my post above might give the erroneous impression that the ZZ37 subclade is composed almost exclusively of people with ancestry from the British Isles or Ireland. While that is true for its most numerous subclades S27900 and Z30600, the wider group includes people of continental origins as well, including France, Germany and Finland. One also has to keep in mind that the FTDNA database is overwhelmingly biased toward Americans of British or Irish ancestry, and those with continental ancestry are greatly under represented.

07-27-2018, 02:37 AM
I'm one of the administrators of the ZZ37 project.

I'm in the S27900 subgroup, which has doubled its number of Big Y test results since the start of this year. My surname (Meek) was the first surname that was not clearly or probably Welsh with a genealogy back to Europe (Northern Irish Protestants) in S27900 that did a Big Y test. Just the other day we got another Big Y from a line that I suspect is Irish rather than Welsh (at least as of the time surnames were adopted). S27900 is still predominantly Welsh. But it is far more diverse than it was just 2 years ago when one could say from the tests that it was almost 100% Welsh.

One of my to-dos for the project is to explore the Continental European part of ZZ37 more. GoldenHind, I suspect that you are right that Continental European members are under-represented, at least among current Big Y test takers. This time last year, the Z39300 subgroup which has a German-ancestry member and a Finnish-ancestry member had as many results on BigTree as my S27900 subgroup. So the raw numbers of members of each group with advanced tests done as of today should not be taken to mean that there are not a lot whole of ZZ37 men who live in Continental Europe or are of Continental European ancestry.

03-08-2021, 02:15 PM
I haven't seen anyone from this group post in a while, but I wanted to share a discovery that Alex Williamson made. I was discussing the two Covesea, Scotland samples from around 900-800BCE as when the paper came out sample, I2859 was called as L21 and sample I2860 was called at P312. Recently all these samples with new calls were made for download at David Reich's Lab and in that release they were both listed as DF27. Alex Williamson looked at both samples and concluded that sample I2859 was L21 but sample I2860 is R-P312 > Z40481 > FGC84729 > ZZ37 > ZZ38 > Z30597. He has also added this sample to the Ytree. This is great news for you guys!!!