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rms2
07-26-2018, 02:06 PM
I put this thread here because thus far in terms of y-dna Kurgan or Steppe Bell Beaker has been overwhelmingly R1b-L23, both R1b-L51 (and most of that R1b-P312) and R1b-Z2103.

As the title indicates, this thread is intended to generate discussion of the theory of German scholar Edward Sangmeister (1916-2016) called Der Rückstrom (literally the "back stream" or "back flow") or The Reflux. This post is an introduction.

Best to go with definitions of the Reflux Theory or Reflux Model that appear in print.

This one is from "Bell Beakers from West to East" in Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World; Bogucki, Peter and Crabtree, Pam J., editors; New York: Scribner and Sons, 2004, page 478 (available as an e-book here (https://ens9004-mza.infd.edu.ar/sitio/upload/11-%20BOGUCKI%20&%20CRABTREE%20-%20LIBRO%20-%20Ancient%20Europe%208000%20AC%20-%20AD%201000.PDF)):



About the same time that the Dutch Model was formulated, Edward Sangmeister proposed the so-called Reflux Model of Bell Beaker origins and distribution. Typological studies done in many regions showed that not all Bell Beaker attributes were connected with Spain, one of the main problems being the fact that corded decoration was absent there. Sangmeister proposed that after the initial phase of Bell Beaker development and expansion from the Iberian Peninsula in the direction of central Europe, a second phase of development took place, this being the “reflux” or reverse flow of Bell Beakers back to the Iberian Peninsula in a new version that had been enriched by central European contributions. Sangmeister, like some of his contemporaries, was becoming aware that it was increasingly difficult to find a single region where Bell Beaker attributes originated.


Here's another from Marc Vander Linden's "A Little Bit of History Repeating Itself: Theories on the Bell Beaker Phenomenon" in Fokkens, Harry, and Harding, Anthony, editors; The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronze Age ; Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2013; page 71:



The most ambitious and complex attempt to reconcile migrations and material variation is undoubtedly Sangmeister's Rückstrom ('reflux' flowing back) theory. This German scholar argued for a two-phase migration of the Beaker folk, with an initial dispersion from the Iberian peninsula to the rest of Europe, followed by a reflux from central Europe, after extensive mixing with the local Corded Ware culture (Sangmeister 1966; for a strictly typological counter-argument, see Clarke 1970).


Why the interest in Sangmeister's Reflux theory? Because it seems to have garnered fresh support from geneticists, a number of whom have posited an initial flow of Bell Beaker culture or ideas to the east from the Iberian peninsula (without much if any movement of people) followed by an actual migration of Bell Beaker people westward from central Europe.

Here are some pretty recent examples.

From Valdiosera et al (2018), "Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Mar 2018, 115 (13) 3428-3433; DOI:10.1073/pnas.1717762115, page 3431:



In contrast to the events in north-central Europe, the arrival of most of the Yamnaya-related ancestry in Iberia postdates the onset of Bell Beaker pottery in Iberia, suggesting that the Bell Beaker culture spread culturally (48), while steppe ancestry was brought into Iberia through later migrations. Notably, both male Bronze Age Iberian individuals in this study as well as all three Iberian Bronze Age males in ref. 24 carried R1b-M269 Y chromosomes (SI Appendix, Table S4.1) also found with high frequency in individuals associated with the Yamnaya culture, the source population of steppe ancestry (4, 6), indicating a continuing male-driven migration from central Europe into southwestern Europe (8, 24, 53).


From David Reich, Who We Are and How We Got Here, pages 114-115:



Beginning about forty-seven hundred years ago, a couple of centuries after the Corded Ware culture swept into central Europe, there was an equally dramatic expansion of the Bell Beaker culture, probably from the region of present-day Iberia . . . It is possible to learn about the movement of people and objects by studying the ratios of isotopes of elements like strontium, lead, and oxygen that are characteristic of materials in different parts of the world. By studying the isotopic composition of teeth, archaeologists have shown that some people of the Bell Beaker culture moved hundreds of kilometers from their places of birth.36

. . . A major open question for understanding the spread of the Bell Beaker culture has always been whether it was propelled by the movement of people or the spread of ideas . . .

So, in contrast to what happened with the spread of the Corded Ware culture from the east, the initial spread of the Bell Beaker culture across Europe was mediated by the movement of ideas, not by migration.

Once the Bell Beaker culture reached central Europe through the dispersal of ideas, though, it spread further through migration.


From Olalde et al, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe, pages 3-4:



For Beaker complex-associated individuals from Iberia, the best fit was obtained when Middle Neolithic and Copper Age populations from the same region were used as the source for their Neolithic-related ancestry; we could exclude central and northern European populations as sources of this ancestry (P < 0.0063) (Fig. 2c). Conversely, the Neolithic related ancestry in Beaker-complex-associated individuals outside of Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (for example, Poland_LN, P = 0.18 and Sweden_MN, P = 0.25), and we could significantly exclude Iberian sources (P < 0.0104) (Fig. 2c). These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.


Ibid, page 5:



Our results support a model in which cultural transmission and human migration both had important roles, with the relative balance of these two processes depending on the region. In Iberia, the majority of Beaker-complex-associated individuals lacked steppe affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, steppe-related ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker-complex associated individuals. However, the presence of steppe-related ancestry in some Iberian individuals demonstrates that gene flow into Iberia was not uncommon during this period.


So, what do you think?

rms2
07-26-2018, 02:29 PM
I have to confess that I have not read Sangmeister's own explanation of the Reflux Model, but it sounds like he envisioned an initial human migration from Iberia, those Iberian Bell Beaker people mixing with Corded Ware people in central Europe, and finally a back migration to the west of the resultant hybrid people and their Corded Ware-enhanced BB culture.

The geneticists I quoted have a somewhat different model in mind due to the lack of much if any evidence of Iberian dna in central European Bell Beaker. They posit the flow eastward out of Iberia of Bell Beaker cultural ideas, followed by their adoption in central Europe by steppe derived people who then migrate to the west.

None of them I know of has attributed Kurgan or Steppe Bell Beaker to a mixing of Iberian Bell Beaker people with Cord Ware people in central Europe.

rms2
07-26-2018, 04:40 PM
So what characterized the earliest Iberian Bell Beaker culture and people, and what was different about them when compared with central European, Kurgan or Steppe Bell Beaker?

The following lists are based on the description of the Portuguese Bell Beaker "Proto-Package" given by Harrison and Heyd on page 203 of The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), and on ancient dna test results from Lipson et al (2017), Olalde et al (2018), and Valdiosera et al (2018).

Iberian Bell Beaker Proto-Package:

1. Maritime Beaker

2. copper knives (but not tanged dagger)

3. copper awls

4. archery

5. decorated textiles

6. V-perforated buttons of tortuga type

7. Iberian_MN autosomal dna

8. Y-DNA I2a1a1, I2a2a, G2 (Note: R1b-V88 from Paris Street in Catalonia reported as belonging to Bell Beaker actually predates Bell Beaker and is Neolithic)

Additional Items from the Classical Bell Beaker Package not Found in Early Iberian Bell Beaker:

1. Single graves in pits under round burial mounds

2. Dependence on the horse, evidence of horseback riding, and the central role of the horse in religious ritual

3. Cord decoration on beakers

4. Boars tusk pendants

5. Archer's wrist guards

6. Tanged daggers

7. Use of white bone paste on beakers

8. East central European Begleitkeramik (pedestalled bowls, etc.)

9. Shafthole (perforated) battle axes

10. Steppe autosomal dna

11. Y-DNA R1b-M269 (mostly R1b-P312, but including R1b-Z2103 and other R1b-L23xP312)

rms2
07-26-2018, 05:22 PM
Anyone? ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRcUFvbcWCw

R.Rocca
07-26-2018, 05:26 PM
A summary of Desideri's study on dental morphology also proposes distinct populations:


The five occupations analyzed offer a rich and complex portrait of society during the 3rd millennium BC. A single explanation does not account for the entire range of variability in the Bell Beaker phenomenon.

The involvement of local populations in the emergence of the Bell Beaker varies according to region. It is only in Northern Spain and Bohemia that strict links between the Bell Beaker occupation and local occupations exist. For the other three regions, external population influences played a role in the origin of the Bell Beaker occupation, but their contribution also varies. Complete population renewal – or at least a highly significant exogenous impact – is unambiguous for Southern France and Hungary. In effect, Bell Beaker populations are clearly distinguished from local populations in these two regions. As for Switzerland, however, shows a local regional population disturbed by partial population renewal or the integration of exogenous individuals. Such a situation in the Swiss region seems to have already been present, although less intensively, during the Late Neolithic.

Dental morphology has demonstrated two populational spheres present in the territory studied. The two entities are clearly distinct; we thus have the southern Bell Beakers and the eastern Bell Beakers, which we respectively term Bell Beakers and Beakers. The southern Bell Beakers are quite similar and the Swiss populations can be strongly linked to their morphology. They form a highly uniform group. The eastern Bell Beakers show a certain cohesion that seems, however, to have been less isolated.

Based on these results, it is possible to propose a diffusion model for the Bell Beaker phenomenon:

- the emergence of the Bell Beaker culture in the southern sphere resulted from the displacement of individuals from the Iberian Peninsula into Europe. The biological impact was recorded to at least Switzerland, and possibly also to Hungary. Thus, the Bell Beakers – small groups of individuals equipped with their material culture and know-how – formed the basis for Bell Beaker diffusion in this region of the phenomenon.

- the situation in the eastern sphere is more complex. Dental data suggest evolution within a single society. Nevertheless, women – Corded Ware and Bell Beaker – were differentiated from the local populations, probably resulting from societies practicing exogamy. For N. Brodie (2001), it was eastern Bell Beaker women who integrated the western region. Our data support neither this hypothesis nor the inverse. Dental morphologies strongly diverge in the two spheres and the population basis of Bell Beaker women was not part of the southern zones studied here.

Thus, to understand the modalities for the establishment of the Bell Beaker phenomenon, we must dissociate the diffusion of southern elements from the exogamic diffusion of women in the eastern domain into two distinct points in times. On the basis of currently available radiocarbon dates suggesting a southwest-northeast gradient for the expansion of the Bell Beaker, we propose the following:

Migration of groups of Bell Beaker individuals from the Iberian Peninsula toward the east, while the eastern domain is still occupied by the Corded Ware culture. Part of the Corded Ware on the edge of the phenomenon was individualized and adopted, by borrowing, some of the southern Bell Beaker traditions. Diffusion of this new society – the Beakers – continued toward the east. At the same time, certain eastern elements were diffused toward the west.

She goes as far as naming these two distinct groups as "Bell Beaker" for the southern group and simply "Beaker" for the eastern group, which includes Bohemia. I know a study from the Czech republic showed a clear distinction between male Bell Beaker (brachycephalic) and Corded Ware (dolichocephalic) skulls. With females it was more variable. This may be due to exogamy and sequence. For example, if women potters lacking in steppe ancestry (see the Alsace example) were the first to adopt cradle boarding, they could have been integrated into a male Corded Ware group and continued the tradition (along with pottery types). Men, not caring how a woman would carry a child or decorate pottery, simply allowed the shift.

rms2
07-26-2018, 05:45 PM
This part is interesting:




On the basis of currently available radiocarbon dates suggesting a southwest-northeast gradient for the expansion of the Bell Beaker, we propose the following:

Migration of groups of Bell Beaker individuals from the Iberian Peninsula toward the east, while the eastern domain is still occupied by the Corded Ware culture. Part of the Corded Ware on the edge of the phenomenon was individualized and adopted, by borrowing, some of the southern Bell Beaker traditions. Diffusion of this new society – the Beakers – continued toward the east. At the same time, certain eastern elements were diffused toward the west.


That sounds exactly like Sangmeister's idea.

The problem with it is twofold:

1. Olalde et al found "no discernible Iberia-related ancestry" in Bell Beaker outside of Iberia, and

2. Corded Ware thus far has been overwhelmingly R1a, while Kurgan/Steppe Bell Beaker has been R1b-M269.

I think #1 above is why Reich and other geneticists have opted for the flow of Bell Beaker ideas rather than people eastward out of Iberia.

#2 is perhaps why Reich and the others refer to Yamnaya ancestry and Yamnaya y chromosomes spreading in western Europe rather than to Corded Ware ancestry and Corded Ware y chromosomes.

rms2
07-26-2018, 06:04 PM
So, how did early Bell Beaker ideas spread eastward out of Iberia without being carried by very many people? I'm guessing those ideas were carried by at least some Iberian Bell Beaker people, but so few that they were virtually swallowed up by steppe-derived people in central Europe without leaving a trace of their autosomal dna (now, that's a small group!). The people carrying those ideas must have had a cultural influence that far exceeded their numbers.

And thus far it doesn't look like the steppe-derived people who adopted the Iberian Bell Beaker Proto-Package were Corded Ware people, unless there was a mostly R1b-M269 Corded Ware group we haven't yet stumbled across. I'm thinking it is more likely it was a Yamnaya or directly Yamnaya-derived group.

My own inclination is to doubt that there is much about Bell Beaker that really did originate in Iberia, but I realize I am kicking against the goads on that one.

Nibelung
07-26-2018, 06:09 PM
If it wasn't a religion then, it is now. But I've nothing against the Iberians myself.

jdean
07-26-2018, 06:16 PM
I was trying to explain the reflux idea to somebody just the other day (probably not very well) and decided at the end after strugling my way through it all that it sounded like something out of a Ladybird book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladybird_Books), as you say the biggest stumbling block (apart from all the toing and froing) is lack of DNA evidence.

rms2
07-26-2018, 06:35 PM
If it wasn't a religion then, it is now. But I've nothing against the Iberians myself.

I have nothing against them myself, but feelings aside, the facts are what they are.

Modern Iberians, like most other Europeans, are descended in part from Indo-European steppe pastoralists.

rms2
07-26-2018, 06:45 PM
Here are the cultural elements of the early Iberian Bell Beaker Proto-Package again.

Iberian Bell Beaker Proto-Package:

1. Maritime Beaker

2. copper knives (but not tanged dagger)

3. copper awls

4. archery

5. decorated textiles

6. V-perforated buttons of tortuga type

What about that strikes one as really so influential that the package or individual components of it could spread as ideas or as an idea?

It seems to me the Maritime Beaker has antecedents on the steppe and in Corded Ware, and archery was already well known among PIE steppe pastoralists before the advent of Bell Beaker.

So, if Bell Beaker originally spread eastward out of Iberia as an idea or a collection of ideas, and few people were involved, why did that happen?

Could it have been something beyond mere mead or beer that people were putting in those Maritime beakers, something used to induce an hallucinogenic religious experience?

Maybe Bell Beaker began as a cult?

jdean
07-26-2018, 06:58 PM
Idly browsing about the place to see what info I could find on the distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker pots I came across a site that referred to the 'wrist guards' as plates.

I came across a paper the other day that contained images of items that had the semblance of these which were also described as plates, though I'm pretty sure they would have been a deal smaller.

The contacts of the Eastern European steppe people with the Balkan population during the transition period from
Neolithic to Eneolithic (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324968625_The_contacts_of_the_Eastern_European_ste ?_sg=JxRAMbzoLFMV2DsYLsZIVFvcgMTxAFirX2fBp-jmqSYybhk1W9hvXxXn-s1E37eS1nUIhqTqvA)

24857

razyn
07-26-2018, 07:18 PM
Maybe Bell Beaker began as a cult?

From my perspective, believing that it began in Iberia is more of a cult. If Christian Jeunesse ("Deconstructing...") was right, Sangmeister may have built a house of cards with this theory. And most everybody since then (including Olalde and Reich) has had to deal with it, somehow. We have covered this ground previously, and I don't have anything new to add -- just a new thread on which to repeat the cautionary advice. As always, one may add a postscript about waiting for more conclusive aDNA evidence. But I, for one, am strongly disinclined to debate the matter with Blas (GASKA) et al, whose minds were made up before this forum was born.

Review of the dissenting literature may be found here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10825-Bell-Beaker-R1b-L21&p=242571&viewfull=1#post242571

George Chandler
07-26-2018, 07:37 PM
Here are the cultural elements of the early Iberian Bell Beaker Proto-Package again.

Iberian Bell Beaker Proto-Package:

1. Maritime Beaker

2. copper knives (but not tanged dagger)

3. copper awls

4. archery

5. decorated textiles

6. V-perforated buttons of tortuga type

What about that strikes one as really so influential that the package or individual components of it could spread as ideas or as an idea?

It seems to me the Maritime Beaker has antecedents on the steppe and in Corded Ware, and archery was already well known among PIE steppe pastoralists before the advent of Bell Beaker.

So, if Bell Beaker originally spread eastward out of Iberia as an idea or a collection of ideas, and few people were involved, why did that happen?

Could it have been something beyond mere mead or beer that people were putting in those Maritime beakers, something used to induce an hallucinogenic religious experience?

Maybe Bell Beaker began as a cult?

One thing I've noticed that seems to be giving a "possible" false positive in terms of O 18 P levels is that elevated levels (not common in the British Isles, Ireland) can indicate a more southerly origin such as Iberia, "but" they can also indicate small coastal areas around the British Isles, Ireland, Brittany and even parts of Scandinavia. Even when looking at Strontium levels there are areas of Norway (even a swath of land east of Trelleborg) etc which look very similar to levels in parts of Wales. I sent an email to someone working on this for clarification but you can sort of see how some previous ideas may have taken off in a wrong direction. Obvious there is more evidence to the Beaker question that you have laid out (IMO correctly). Looking forward to seeing what will be discovered in the coming years.

rms2
07-26-2018, 07:41 PM
From my perspective, believing that it began in Iberia is more of a cult. If Christian Jeunesse ("Deconstructing...") was right, Sangmeister may have built a house of cards with this theory. And most everybody since then (including Olalde and Reich) has had to deal with it, somehow. We have covered this ground previously, and I don't have anything new to add -- just a new thread on which to repeat the cautionary advice. As always, one may add a postscript about waiting for more conclusive aDNA evidence. But I, for one, am strongly disinclined to debate the matter with Blas (GASKA) et al, whose minds were made up before this forum was born . . .


Well, as I said, in post #7 of this thread above,


. . .
My own inclination is to doubt that there is much about Bell Beaker that really did originate in Iberia, but I realize I am kicking against the goads on that one.

As I also said in the first post, the reason for bringing this up is the new life (albeit in somewhat altered form) Reich and other geneticists have given the Reflux Model.

Sangmeister was clearly wrong if what he envisioned was an initial migration of early Iberian Bell Beaker people moving east out of Iberia, mixing with Corded Ware people in central Europe, and the resultant hybrid people moving back to the west.

Isidro
07-26-2018, 10:44 PM
This comment would be more credible if you would have come up with it even 2 or 3 years ago, the sad thing is that your statement emulates what your position was over 14 years ago?... maybe 13?.

I don't see you as a visionary at all and to cultivate the idea that most Beakers in The Isles were connected to Central Europe in the middle of the third Millenium was not a secret even then.

Still a lot of dust to swallow along the road before you can call anywhere "home" mister.


From my perspective, believing that it began in Iberia is more of a cult.

rms2
07-27-2018, 01:15 PM
Yesterday evening I read the article, "The Beaker Transition in Mediterranean France", by Olivier Lemercier, which is Chapter 5 in the book, Background to Beakers, which I recently acquired. (One of the nice things about the book is that each article is separate and self contained, i.e., it's not necessary to read them in any particular order.) Good article. Anyway, Lemercier explained that there are over 540 sites yielding Bell Beaker artifacts on or near the Mediterranean coast of France, which sites and artifacts are divided into three periods: Campaniforme Ancien (Early Bell Beaker), Campaniforme Récent (Middle Bell Beaker), and Campaniforme Tardif (Late Bell Beaker).

The interesting thing is that it appears there was some movement of Bell Beaker people from Iberia to the French Mediterranean littoral. The Early Bell Beaker period Lemercier characterizes as a period of exploration and exchange, with the adoption of BB pottery by local people and trade with Iberian BB people. The Middle Bell Beaker period witnessed closer ties to Iberia that probably witnessed some actual Iberian settlement there.

There was an abrupt change with the third phase, Late Bell Beaker, however. This is from page 148:



The third phase, with the development of the Late Bell Beaker, is not comparable to the first model, but involves a new influx, now from the east with a new phase of hill top sites and the appearance of fortifications.


By "first model", Lemercier explains that he means the model of exploration and exchange followed by settlement, which is like what happened in the region later with the coming of the Phocian Greeks.

He points out that the first two periods were characterized by collective Neolithic tombs. Individual burials were rare. The only well-preserved one from the Early Bell Beaker period is from Forcalquier-La Fare: an adult male on his left side in the typical Beaker pose, head to the north, with a beaker, a copper dagger, and a couple of other objects. Figure 11 includes some decent black-and-white photos of the burial site and skeleton. The interesting thing about that one is that the Bell Beaker man in it was included among the samples tested by Olalde et al. He had what looks to me like a substantial level of steppe dna. For that I am relying on Figure S2 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Info, which shows I2575 (the skeleton from La Fare) well to the left of the early Iberian BB individuals and solidly within the steppe dna range of most of the non-Iberian Bell Beaker people. Figure S2 does not give the percentage of steppe dna, however.

Here are the stats for the BB skeleton from Forcalquier-La Fare:

I2575/Grave S. 14: 2476–2211 calBCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269; mtDNA: K1c1

So, even though Lemercier includes I2575 in his Campaniforme Ancien (Early Bell Beaker) period, we can see that he dates to after 2500 BC. Lemercier does admit, however, that the periodization of Bell Beaker sites and finds in Mediterranean France "is based on archaeological observations rather than on absolute dates, which are not abundant anyway" (page 121).

In the Middle Beaker period Lemercier knows of only one individual burial, that of a child in a settlement context at Montpezat-Grotte Murée. Apparently that one was not tested by Olalde et al. The other burials were all in collective tombs.

Single burials become more common during Lemercier's Late Bell Beaker period (from page 146):



Burials are fairly diverse, but especially show the true development of individual burials, and probably of small cemeteries (Lemercier and Tchérémissinoff 2011).


Interesting that the one well-preserved, classic Kurgan Bell Beaker burial mentioned by Lemercier turned out to contain a man who had steppe dna and was R1b-M269.

jdean
07-27-2018, 02:35 PM
Interesting that the one well-preserved, classic Kurgan Bell Beaker burial mentioned by Lemercier turned out to contain a man who had steppe dna and was R1b-M269.

Is there mention of grave goods by any chance ?

rms2
07-27-2018, 02:49 PM
Is there mention of grave goods by any chance ?

This is from page 25 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:



The archaeological furniture consists of six objects. A copper dagger blade was placed beside the head behind the skull. A small object in the shape of a bone reel was found on the bottom of the pit in front of the head. In the southern part of the pit, under the "access step", were three ceramic beakers, two of which were inverted in front of a small bench in the substrate and a little higher up in the sediment infiltration mass. One is an early Bell Beaker with mixed decoration (comb and cord), the other two are characteristic beakers of the Rhone-Ouvèze group. Screening of the entire sediment of the structure yielded only one small segmented bone pearl.

The skeleton is that of a man aged between 30 and 40 years, of the so-called "alpine" cranial architectural type, about 1.72 m and wounded by inclusion in the olecranon of a fragment of Flint causing ankylosis of the left elbow.


The mention of the "Alpine" (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IV11.htm) skull is interesting. That would be a brachycephalic type.

jdean
07-27-2018, 03:09 PM
So all thing considered, very much an Eastern 'Kurgan' BB : )

rms2
07-27-2018, 03:14 PM
So all thing considered, very much an Eastern 'Kurgan' BB : )

The height of 1.72 m is taller than the 1.68 m average for Neolithic males mentioned by Fitzpatrick in The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen (p. 21), but not gigantic.

rms2
07-27-2018, 04:03 PM
Apparently the Amesbury Archer, the Companion, and the one fully articulated Boscombe Bowmen skeleton all had brachycephalic skulls, as well.

This is from page 22 of The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen:



There is a range of 81.0-82.4, with a mean of 81.7 and a SD of 0.57; all fall within the brachycranial (round-headed) range.

razyn
07-27-2018, 05:41 PM
LeMercier has published a good many things since that paper in Background to Beakers (2012). Many of them are in French, but certainly not all. He is, for example, one of the many contributors to Olalde et al, 2018. Here are a few pertinent listings from his page at academia dot edu.

https://www.academia.edu/13093810/LEMERCIER_O._BLAISE_E._CATTIN_F._CONVERTINI_F._DES IDERI_J._FURESTIER_R._GADBOIS-LANGEVIN_R._LABAUNE_M._2014_2500_avant_notre_%C3%A 8re_l_implantation_campaniforme_en_France_m%C3%A9d iterran%C3%A9enne

https://www.academia.edu/35066915/LEMERCIER_O._FURESTIER_R._GADBOIS-LANGEVIN_R._SCHULZ_PAULSSON_B._2014_-_Chronologie_et_p%C3%A9riodisation_des_campaniform es_en_France_m%C3%A9diterran%C3%A9enne

https://www.academia.edu/35066984/LEMERCIER_O._2014_Bell_Beakers_in_Eastern_France_a nd_the_Rhone-Saone-Rhine_axis_question

rms2
07-27-2018, 06:08 PM
Sorry to keep blathering on about this stuff, but I enjoy discussing it. It motivates me to dig into it and learn more (especially since as a teacher I am off during the summer and have the chance to do a little of this).

Anyway, here are the stats for the Kurgan BB skeleton from Forcalquier-La Fare again:

I2575/Grave S. 14: 2476–2211 calBCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269; mtDNA: K1c1

That's a C14 date range, with a midpoint of about 2344 BC, which is roughly contemporaneous with the destruction phase, around 2425 BC, at the site of Sion in Switzerland, and the site of Aosta in northern Italy, when, according to Harrison and Heyd, Bell Beaker migrants from the east arrived and tore things up a bit.

From page 192 of Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland):



Within two generations, another significant change takes place at both sites. This is the destruction horizon around 2425 BC, at the end of the early Beaker period, when stelae on both sites were smashed and their fragments used as building material in new monuments (see Fig. 10). This marks a fundamental change in the prevailing ideology on each site. Such a change is clearly abrupt, violent and conducted quickly, so that every image was broken and thrown down. Not one remains intact at Sion, where the destruction was more complete than at Aosta. The distinctive accompanying material includes Bell Beakers that have links to the East Group. It signals an ideological switch in allegiance, transferred from the old Rhine-Rhône axis, to the new focus on the Danube. At Sion the destruction horizon is fixed firmly to the construction of the first megalithic cists, which are built on top of ‘couche 5C2’; at the same time the monument M VI is emptied, and the skulls and bones were removed and placed on its east side. The choice of the east side probably reflects the custom of burial in the Bell Beaker’s East Group where the heads always point to the rising sun in the east. The new monuments are built on the original site axis and generally respect its orientation. These cists, built with many stelae fragments, contain middle phase Bell Beaker material. Our interpretation of these events is that the cists represent burial places restricted to one family, and they mark the definitive change from collective burials in the Final Neolithic.

We suggest that this destruction horizon is the intellectually transforming moment at both Sion and Aosta. The stable isotope studies describe how we can recognize individual immigrants coming to live at Sion from areas a long way to the east (Chiaradia et al. 2003). This moment is also reflected in the fundamental change of dental and cranial morphology of the Sion skeletons at the transition of the Final Neolithic to the Bell Beaker period (Desideri/Eades 2004), or, as we think, at the transition of the early to the middle Bell Beaker phase. This human mobility is convincing evidence that agrees with the distribution of artifact types, and the personal nature of the ornaments and weapons. In these burials we look upon the face of prehistoric Beaker migrants, who arrived as individuals, and not as a migratory population. It shows the importance of the individual person in promoting a cultural change. The conflict of ideas could therefore be seen as a doctrinal conflict within the Bell Beaker ideology. This fits the two distinct Beaker traditions that we identify, coming respectively from the southwest and the east. The Bell Beaker middle phase A2 is the climax of the development of the site. The cists reflect the new family based structures, that are dominant in the community and which follow the East Group customs (Heyd 2007).


Ibid, page 142:



Stages and their descriptions (summarised in our Fig. 10):

. . .

3. Destruction horizon of all stelae. Human burials and grave goods removed from Dolmen M VI, and the skulls and human bones of about 90 individuals are placed on its eastern side. Couche 5B includes this cultural material that accumulates around the dolmen.

4. The first megalithic cists M I, M V and M XI are built on the surface of couche 5C2. They include many broken stelae used as construction materials . . .


The only dna test results from Sion in Olalde et al came from skeletons recovered from the stone cist known as Dolmen M XI. It was one of the post-destruction horizon cists and was constructed from reused stone stelae.

Y-DNA and mtDNA Results from Sion from Olalde et al, Supplementary Information, page 44, and Spreadsheet, Supplementary Tables 2 and 4:

I5755/BB_01_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: K2b1a

I5757/BB_18_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-L151 mtDNA: H3af

I5759/BB_23_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE mtDNA: U2e1c1

All three have steppe dna, albeit a bit less than I2575 from Forcalquier-La Fare, and again I am getting that from Figure S2 on page 155 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Info, which does not give percentages of steppe dna.

From Harrison and Heyd again, page 172:



In Sion, the early Beaker ideology from the west was violently challenged, and replaced by an antagonistic version of the same beliefs that came from the east, ultimately from the Carpathian basin and the middle Danube. The result was the obliteration of the specifically western Beaker ideology, and the stelae, which materialized it. No more were erected, and the solar axis of the site was less respected. If the destruction of the stelae is treated as an historical incident, when one social group of Beaker users overthrows its rival, it should be possible to read the rest of the site’s history with a similar logic. This is a task for the future, once the physical anthropology on the human skeletal remains is published, and the immigrants identified.


Ibid, page 187:



The difference is a chronological one; the stelae are created first, with symbols and inventories of southern origin; then the elements of the ‘Beaker Package’ arrive from the Danubian region. The rivalry that arose between the two was so great that the stelae were destroyed, and the new symbol code was imposed.


Notice that we have west meets east (or vice versa). Contra Sangmeister there isn't any sign of mixing but rather of violent overthrow of the west by the newcomers from the east. In that connection recall what Lemercier wrote about the Late Bell Beaker period in Mediterranean France (on page 148 of Background to Beakers):



The third phase, with the development of the Late Bell Beaker, is not comparable to the first model, but involves a new influx, now from the east with a new phase of hill top sites and the appearance of fortifications.


"[A] new phase of hill top sites and the appearance of fortifications".

Why do you think the newcomers (or the natives?) needed those?

From pages 239-240 of Reich's Who We Are and How We Got Here:



This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome.


I realize all these quotations might be irritating to some, but I am trying to back up what I am saying with quotes from people who know more than I do, and I am supplying titles and page numbers so that anyone who wants to can double check me or read the material for himself or herself.

jdean
07-27-2018, 06:51 PM
If it weren't for the DNA (and morphology) it sounds like an ideology that split into two factions that then came to blows, a story that replays itself often, must say it's a perplexing puzzle !

jdean
07-27-2018, 07:37 PM
This paper manages to produce a much less tangled conclusion by niftily ignoring Bell Beakers : )

Chronology and Bell Beaker Common Ware (https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/3536/3051)

rms2
07-27-2018, 07:39 PM
If it weren't for the DNA (and morphology) it sounds like an ideology that split into two factions that then came to blows, a story that replays itself often, must say it's a perplexing puzzle !

What I get out of it is a small movement of Iberian(?) Bell Beaker folks who bring their ideas or cult with them, but who wind up getting walloped by a meaner and much bigger crowd from the east.

That last part is the real story and what accounts for those population replacements and the new suite of languages belonging to the Indo-European family.

rms2
07-27-2018, 08:28 PM
God rest the soul of Jean Manco, our sainted friend, but I wonder about her idea of the Stelae People and the trail of stelae supposedly from the Pontic steppe to Iberia. That was supposed to mark the advent in Iberia, in the pre-Beaker Copper Age, of steppe people who then founded Iberian Bell Beaker.

But the western BB stelae at Sion and Aosta were thrown down by Kurgan Bell Beaker people from the east, who then did not erect any of their own.

And Olalde et al found no steppe dna in Iberia that pre-dated Kurgan Bell Beaker circa 2500 BC.

Jean is not here to defend her ideas, and God knows I really respected and liked her, but it seems the evidence is against her Stelae People idea.

rms2
07-27-2018, 08:51 PM
I posted about this elsewhere, but it's still interesting (to me anyway).

In the destruction phase at Sion, about 2425 BC, as I mentioned already, the Kurgan Bell Beaker immigrants from the east threw down the anthropomorphic stelae that were already there in standing positions and used them to construct stone cists for single and family burials. That is evidently exactly what the Yamnaya people did with earlier stelae from the Kemi Oba culture.

Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, page 204:



Of greater representational interest are the carved stone stelae on which are depicted the heads and arms of figures, and which are covered with both geometric and more realistic ornament. A fine example of this is the stone stela that derives from Kernosovka. The stela stood 1.2 metres high and depicts the head, including a face with a moustache and beard; arms; and phallus. On the front surface of the stela are carved images of what have been interpreted as tools such as mattocks, a battle-axe, and animals including two horses. There are about seventy such figures known from the Pontic region. Considerable evidence exists that they were employed in Later Eneolithic burials, especially in the construction of Yamnaya graves where they were used to cover the deceased. This was clearly not their original purpose since they were constructed to stand upright, and Dmitry Telegin suggests that they were originally manufactured by the Lower Mikhaylovka-Kemi Oba culture and later appropriated by Yamnaya tribes who reused them in their own burials.

rms2
07-27-2018, 09:44 PM
I always thought that western stelae looked nothing like steppe stelae.

rms2
07-27-2018, 10:45 PM
Jean's Stelae People was a neat idea, but I think it just didn't pan out. Still, I wonder about how copper working got to Iberia initially. It seems doubtful to me that it would arise in both the Balkans and Iberia independently.

Pretty obviously, though, no one who was R1b-M269 or had steppe dna had anything to do with it.

rms2
07-28-2018, 12:45 PM
Another article from Background to Beakers I read a couple of nights ago was Chapter 7, "The Bell Beaker Phenomenon: Meanings of Regional Transmission", by Katarzyna Mikołajczak and Radosław Szczodrowski. Interesting article, but it suffers from a not-always-good English translation from the original Polish.

Mikołajczak and Szczodrowski take the view that Bell Beaker was primarily a religious idea and point to its restrictive burial rites, with different orientations and artifacts for men versus women. They may be onto something in showing that, while Kurgan Bell Beaker and Corded Ware had very similar burial rites, the former seems to represent a deliberate attempt to reverse and strike out key aspects of the earlier Corded Ware rite. Both Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker buried their dead in single graves under round burial mounds with the body in a crouched position on its side, but instead of the east-west orientation of Corded Ware, Kurgan Bell Beaker generally oriented the body north-south. In Corded Ware, the body faced south; men were placed on their right sides and women on their left sides. In Kurgan Bell Beaker, the body faced west, with men on their left sides and women on their right sides.

So, was Kurgan Bell Beaker in some respects a repudiation of the Corded Ware religion? Could Kurgan Bell Beaker have represented an heretical Corded Ware cult in rebellion?

Of course, anytime we seek the source of Kurgan Bell Beaker in Corded Ware, we run into a number of problems, not least of which is the fact that thus far Corded Ware has been overwhelmingly R1a, while Kurgan Bell Beaker has been overwhelmingly R1b-M269 (mostly R1b-P312).

Another thing I have found is that, while it is possible to speak in general terms about Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker burial rites, there were always exceptions to the rule, i.e., men and women not buried lying on the generally prescribed side or facing in the prescribed direction, etc. These exceptions tend to be regional, however: whichever orientation is chosen in a particular geographic area, gender dimorphism is preserved (men buried one way and women the other).

rms2
07-28-2018, 07:01 PM
Please delete this post.

rms2
07-29-2018, 01:01 PM
The height of 1.72 m is taller than the 1.68 m average for Neolithic males mentioned by Fitzpatrick in The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen (p. 21), but not gigantic.

Evidently Fitzpatrick was giving the average height for British Neolithic males (1.68 m). Carles Lalueza-Fox says the average height of Neolithic Iberian males was 1.62 m (Lalueza-Fox, Carles; "Physical Anthropological Aspects of the Mesolithic-Neolithic Transition in the Iberian Peninsula", in Current Anthropology, Volume 37, Number 4, August-October 1996, pages 689-695; Figure 4, page 693: Evolution of stature (in cm) in the Iberian Peninsula (males) from the Mesolithic to the present).

razyn
07-29-2018, 01:23 PM
So, after the steppe guys came in the average height of males went up by four inches. I wonder if that's genetic, or just a lot more dairy in the diet while they were growing up. I've heard that there was a similar effect of Japanese people getting taller, post-WWII. Totally anecdotal, but the anecdotes did come to me directly from a couple of Japanese students, from Keio University.

Ethereal
07-29-2018, 06:08 PM
I have to confess that I have not read Sangmeister's own explanation of the Reflux Model, but it sounds like he envisioned an initial human migration from Iberia, those Iberian Bell Beaker people mixing with Corded Ware people in central Europe, and finally a back migration to the west of the resultant hybrid people and their Corded Ware-enhanced BB culture.

The geneticists I quoted have a somewhat different model in mind due to the lack of much if any evidence of Iberian dna in central European Bell Beaker. They posit the flow eastward out of Iberia of Bell Beaker cultural ideas, followed by their adoption in central Europe by steppe derived people who then migrate to the west.

None of them I know of has attributed Kurgan or Steppe Bell Beaker to a mixing of Iberian Bell Beaker people with Cord Ware people in central Europe.

I am extremely confident Sangmeister is correct over today's geneticists in suspecting this reflux process occurred entirely with people, and will continue to hold that opinion until R1b-L51 is found in Eastern Europe. It seems most of the experts are holding out on L51 taking a Danubian route from the Steppe, which seems absurd to me given the absence of L51 found in that broad region in both ancient and modern DNA. In fact, the available ancient and modern DNA OBVIOUSLY favours the Danubian branch off of Yamnaya being R1b-Z2103!

My opinion: Exactly Sangmeister's, with L51 essentially becoming the elite over a Corded Ware mass. L51 would have originally spoken a non-IE language, perhaps Vasconic, while the Corded Ware mass actually brought the IE languages to Europe as once thought.

jdean
07-29-2018, 06:50 PM
Sorry but using the word 'absurd' followed by this makes me smile : )


My opinion: Exactly Sangmeister's, with L51 essentially becoming the elite over a Corded Ware mass. L51 would have originally spoken a non-IE language, perhaps Vasconic, while the Corded Ware mass actually brought the IE languages to Europe as once thought.

rms2
07-29-2018, 08:01 PM
I am extremely confident Sangmeister is correct over today's geneticists in suspecting this reflux process occurred entirely with people, and will continue to hold that opinion until R1b-L51 is found in Eastern Europe. It seems most of the experts are holding out on L51 taking a Danubian route from the Steppe, which seems absurd to me given the absence of L51 found in that broad region in both ancient and modern DNA. In fact, the available ancient and modern DNA OBVIOUSLY favours the Danubian branch off of Yamnaya being R1b-Z2103!

My opinion: Exactly Sangmeister's, with L51 essentially becoming the elite over a Corded Ware mass. L51 would have originally spoken a non-IE language, perhaps Vasconic, while the Corded Ware mass actually brought the IE languages to Europe as once thought.

You've got to be kidding.

rms2
07-29-2018, 11:35 PM
Pardon me for quoting Reich again, but just to clear the air of ridiculous claims about some sort of "Vasconic elite" on a Corded Ware mass, here is an excerpt from pages 239-240 of Who We Are and How We Got Here:



This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.28 We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.


Notice that Reich speaks of a replacement involving Yamnaya ancestry and Yamnaya y chromosomes and not of Vasconic ancestry and Vasconic y chromosomes.

In his book, Reich mentions that he has over 3,000 ancient dna samples with whole genome data in his lab and that thus far in total only 711 ancient dna samples (including samples from other labs) have been published.

I suspect he knows a lot that we don't yet know.

jdean
07-30-2018, 12:41 PM
Thought this interesting but the book's quite old so probably a little behind the times

24895

The Rhine/Meuse Delta (https://books.google.com/books?id=6PwUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA287)

This ones more recent

24896

A Living Landscape: Bronze Age Settlement Sites in the Dutch River Area (c. 2000-800 BC) (https://books.google.com/books?id=O6vfJ9pbYrUC&pg=PA377)

R.Rocca
07-30-2018, 05:40 PM
Thought this interesting but the book's quite old so probably a little behind the times

24895

The Rhine/Meuse Delta (https://books.google.com/books?id=6PwUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA287)

This ones more recent

24896

A Living Landscape: Bronze Age Settlement Sites in the Dutch River Area (c. 2000-800 BC) (https://books.google.com/books?id=O6vfJ9pbYrUC&pg=PA377)

The Molenaarsgraaf date is not really reliable. See my spreadsheet for oldest bone single Bell Beaker graves tested:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit?usp=sharing

jdean
07-30-2018, 06:35 PM
The Molenaarsgraaf date is not really reliable. See my spreadsheet for oldest bone single Bell Beaker graves tested:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit?usp=sharing

Shame but I'm not surprised : )

Very useful spreadsheet BTW, thanks !!

MitchellSince1893
07-30-2018, 11:57 PM
The Molenaarsgraaf date is not really reliable. See my spreadsheet for oldest bone single Bell Beaker graves tested:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit?usp=sharing

Wonder why different sources give RISE563/Poz-84553 date range as 2572-2512 BC vs your spreadsheet that has 2571–2341 calBC



https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/v555/n7695/extref/nature25738-s2.pdf

I5021/RISE563/F0234/obj. 8, grave 3: 2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz84553)

https://amtdb.org/records/769

https://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/98916/field_highwire_adjunct_files/4/322347-5.xlsx

R.Rocca
07-31-2018, 12:18 PM
Wonder why different sources give RISE563/Poz-84553 date range as 2572-2512 BC vs your spreadsheet that has 2571–2341 calBC

Olalde et al (2018) revised the calibrated date of I5021 to 2571–2341 calBC even though the sample was not retested (same 3955±35 BP, Poz84553). If I had to guess, the difference is probably between the confidence factors they used (ex. 1σ versus 2σ).

MitchellSince1893
07-31-2018, 12:25 PM
Olalde et al (2018) revised the calibrated date of I5021 to 2571–2341 calBC even though the sample was not retested (same 3955±35 BP, Poz84553). If I had to guess, the difference is probably between the confidence factors they used (ex. 1σ versus 2σ).
Not a huge deal. Their midpoints (2542 vs 2456 BC) are only 86 years apart.

rms2
08-03-2018, 11:28 PM
I think R1b-P312 is going to turn up in Yamnaya soon (and probably U106, too). If one looks at Kurgan Bell Beaker, we're already at R1b-L2, R1b-DF27, and R1b-DF13. Probably other P312 subclades will show up in Kurgan Bell Beaker soon, as well. Remember, Olalde et al was good, but it did not include any samples from KBB's northern province (Jutland, northern Poland, SW Norway).

Let's see if I'm right.

TigerMW
08-11-2018, 02:42 PM
Needham and others have used the term “fusion-fission” rather than “reflux” to describe the series of events in Central Europe. “Fusion-fission” is probably the better term as it does not imply a bounce back, but rather a merger, then a expansion.

I’m no expert on the Roman pantheon of gods but I have read that the Romans practiced patriarch-ancestor worship. This may just be the expansion of the pantheon to the households of the elite. Maybe it is the other way around and the temple (pantheon) is just an extension of ancestor worship from the households. It could have been fairly pragmatic that burials of leading ancestors were very important and the victorious group’s burial had to be placed in honor over any opposing group’s.

As far as I have observed, the largest and/or most prominent monument to a man in Las Vegas is of.......?
Julius Caesar at the Caesar’s Palace swimming pool
http://www.caesarstravelagents.com/AgentResources/ImageGallery/LasVegasImageGallery/CaesarsPalace

rms2
08-11-2018, 03:00 PM
Who's supposed to have fused? And who's supposed to have split apart?

TigerMW
08-11-2018, 03:24 PM
Fusion and fission are not necessarily genetic descriptions but there were probably some genetic consequences.


Who's supposed to have fused? And who's supposed to have split apart?
Needham is involved in several articles. One that applies to this topic is..
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/transforming-beaker-culture-in-northwest-europe-processes-of-fusion-and-fission/9AB4E0D6C3DA08260C603F3F2FD2F9ED

I don’t have time to reread the article closely but here is an excerpt from the article.

In reviewing the continental background for Beaker-carrying cultures, a corridor of Bell Beaker/Corded Ware fusion is perceived along the southern flanks of the Channel. This created a modified spectrum of Beaker culture which stands at the head of the insular phenomenon. The long ensuing currency of Beaker pottery and Beaker graves in Britain does not hold up as a unified, steadily evolving entity. Instead, three ‘phases of meaning’ can be suggested: 1) Beaker as circumscribed, exclusive culture; 2) Beaker as instituted culture; 3) Beaker as past reference. The fission horizon initiates phase 2.

I am not advocating Needham is 100% correct, but suggesting his terminology has merits.

rms2
08-11-2018, 05:33 PM
I haven't read the article yet either, but that was basically Sangmeister's idea: Iberian Bell Beaker people meeting up with and "fusing" with Corded Ware in central Europe. Then the new hybrid BB people moved back west after having acquired the traits we think of as classic Bell Beaker, i.e., single grave burial under a mound, etc.

I don't buy that for a number of reasons. One, there is little or no evidence of Iberian dna in Kurgan Bell Beaker, and Kurgan Bell Beaker did a lousy job of fusing with Corded Ware, if that's what happened. They got the burial rite wrong (conclusion: sometimes rite is wrong), and they managed to miss picking up any of that CW R1a. We know R1b-M269 didn't come east with the early Iberian BB people.

Like I said, I haven't read Needham, but I think Sangmeister was wrong.

GoldenHind
08-11-2018, 05:46 PM
Probably other P312 subclades will show up in Kurgan Bell Beaker soon, as well. Remember, Olalde et al was good, but it did not include any samples from KBB's northern province (Jutland, northern Poland, SW Norway).

Let's see if I'm right.

Do you know if there are there any plans to test samples from the northern group?

rms2
08-11-2018, 05:52 PM
Do you know if there are there any plans to test samples from the northern group?

Not that I know of, but I wish they would. Surely Kristiansen, Willerslev, and the folks in Copenhagen must have some genomic data from the northern province of KBB already.

Reich made it clear in his book that they already have a lot of data but that the publication pace is much slower than the pace of acquisition. I'm not sure the data he was talking about include any northern KBB, but they could.

Anglecynn
08-11-2018, 06:06 PM
What I get out of it is a small movement of Iberian(?) Bell Beaker folks who bring their ideas or cult with them, but who wind up getting walloped by a meaner and much bigger crowd from the east.

That last part is the real story and what accounts for those population replacements and the new suite of languages belonging to the Indo-European family.

What was Iberia like at around the period of the transition? I wonder if perhaps Iberia was relatively affluent and there was political strife, the tribes there may have been inclined to look towards the potentially more traditionally warlike tribes in the north-east as a source of mercenaries? Some of these guys do very well, head back home and bring a little of the Beaker culture with them - If they became a significant part of the new elite back in their homelands, it would provide one potential reason as to how their hybrid culture spread. That could include a religious element too of course.

Could be other reasons too regarding trades & crafts.

I mean one thinks of Roman artefacts being found in Germany & even as far as Sweden, and subsequently some level of population flux following that as the established superpower of it's day becomes sclerotic and succumbs to mercenaries and warlords, that used to make up a significant element of the military class.

Could be many other explanations - but it just strikes me that we should probably be thinking in terms of push-and-pull factors too, as the discussion often gets lost in describing large bodies of people (as i did above - not intending to be ironic though haha!) get described doing only thing at a time, or all going in one direction etc.

Just thought of this on the fly, so feel free to pull it apart. I'll need to go back and re-read some things on the subject.

GoldenHind
08-11-2018, 06:24 PM
Not that I know of, but I wish they would. Surely Kristiansen, Willerslev, and the folks in Copenhagen must have some genomic data from the northern province of KBB already.

Reich made it clear in his book that they already have a lot of data but that the publication pace is much slower than the pace of acquisition. I'm not sure the data he was talking about include any northern KBB, but they could.

My best guess, based admittedly on modern distribution, is that the northern BB province included all or nearly all P312 subclades.

rms2
08-11-2018, 08:47 PM
My best guess, based admittedly on modern distribution, is that the northern BB province included all or nearly all P312 subclades.

Could be some U106 there, as well, although I don't know. Wish the northern province had been represented in the Olalde et al samples.

TigerMW
08-16-2018, 01:48 PM
What I get out of it is a small movement of Iberian(?) Bell Beaker folks who bring their ideas or cult with them, but who wind up getting walloped by a meaner and much bigger crowd from the east.

That last part is the real story and what accounts for those population replacements and the new suite of languages belonging to the Indo-European family.

I agree and have evolved into thinking that the scientists' different terms such as "reflux" or and even "fusion-fission" just don't work well. I was inclined that fusion-fission was somewhat meaningful but more a matter of proportions (with Iberian being very limited) but it really doesn't fit well either.

The sequence of events was a far flung invasion following by consolidation of control and integration per the respective localities. It was this consolidation and integration with existing peoples that scientists saw as "fission" because of differences popping up in the various East/Kurgan/Steppe Beaker fiefdoms. However, it was not really exploding from a center which fission implies.

The explosion was in the first phase, the invasion, where they ran rough-shod through vast territories and established colonies.

The early West Bell Beakers, Corded Wares and old Neolithic peoples were just in the way and were eventually absorbed if not ruined or relegated to the wayside.

The genesis of the East/Kurgan/Steppe Beakers is still a mystery. I can envision them being a late Yamnaya group driving all the way to Central Europe but something significant happened to give them more than what the Yamnaya had. I do think improved water transportation was a a part of it.

R.Rocca
08-16-2018, 08:57 PM
Kristian Kristiansen's makes mention of R1b and the relationship between western and Steppe Bell Beaker in this presentation:

The Indo-Europeanizaton of Europe
https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/Kristiansen_summer_school_2018.pdf

The linguistic models for Italo-Celtic, Proto-Celtic etc. are interesting on the last page:

The three models: one for each millennium BCE that contributed to
formation and distribution Celtic languages

• 3rd millennium Beaker migrations
to UK and north Iberia spread
proto-italo-celtic
• 2 millennium Bronze Age Atlantic
trade systems spread languages of
proto-Celtic south but interacted
with proto-Germanic speaking
population to the north
• 1st millennium: La Tene migrations
from Gaul/Belgium to UK spread a
Gaulish version of Celtic to
Ireland/UK
• Thus, this later spread came to
dominate. It explains why insular
Celtic has virtually no connections
to the maritime world.

razyn
08-16-2018, 09:59 PM
Kristian Kristiansen's makes mention of R1b and the relationship between western and Steppe Bell Beaker in this presentation:


That's really a good read. But it's best to go full-screen at once, because the slides and captions are much more easily legible, and one may toggle through using the cursor arrows. I had made the mistake of scrolling, for several minutes, as if I were reading a typescript or a paper.

Ruderico
08-17-2018, 09:57 AM
Kristian Kristiansen's makes mention of R1b and the relationship between western and Steppe Bell Beaker in this presentation:

The Indo-Europeanizaton of Europe
https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/Kristiansen_summer_school_2018.pdf

The linguistic models for Italo-Celtic, Proto-Celtic etc. are interesting on the last page:

The three models: one for each millennium BCE that contributed to
formation and distribution Celtic languages

• 3rd millennium Beaker migrations
to UK and north Iberia spread
proto-italo-celtic
• 2 millennium Bronze Age Atlantic
trade systems spread languages of
proto-Celtic south but interacted
with proto-Germanic speaking
population to the north
• 1st millennium: La Tene migrations
from Gaul/Belgium to UK spread a
Gaulish version of Celtic to
Ireland/UK
• Thus, this later spread came to
dominate. It explains why insular
Celtic has virtually no connections
to the maritime world.



So I suppose that would make (pre/proto) Lusitanian arrive in Iberia either with the Beaker folk or with the Atlantic Bronze? They were a Bronze age folk, but 2nd millenium seems a bit too early, from what I've read

rms2
08-17-2018, 10:59 AM
One thing I find interesting in Kristiansen's presentation is the same thing I found interesting in Reich's recent book: apparent confidence in asserting that the y chromosome lineage in Bell Beaker was of Yamnaya origin.

Makes me wonder what genomic data they know about that we don't.

Pylsteen
08-17-2018, 11:18 AM
Kristian Kristiansen's makes mention of R1b and the relationship between western and Steppe Bell Beaker in this presentation:

The Indo-Europeanizaton of Europe
https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/roe_sommerskole/Kristiansen_summer_school_2018.pdf

The linguistic models for Italo-Celtic, Proto-Celtic etc. are interesting on the last page:

The three models: one for each millennium BCE that contributed to
formation and distribution Celtic languages

• 3rd millennium Beaker migrations
to UK and north Iberia spread
proto-italo-celtic
• 2 millennium Bronze Age Atlantic
trade systems spread languages of
proto-Celtic south but interacted
with proto-Germanic speaking
population to the north
• 1st millennium: La Tene migrations
from Gaul/Belgium to UK spread a
Gaulish version of Celtic to
Ireland/UK
• Thus, this later spread came to
dominate. It explains why insular
Celtic has virtually no connections
to the maritime world.

So it seems that in the end they just end up with the traditional model of a Hallstatt/La Tène spread of modern attested Celtic languages (still most plausible IMO).
Would this not erase most traces of an earlier spread of Celtic along the Atlantic (they seem to count on the "western" distribution of Celtic place names, but the hotspots still seem France and Southern England on the map). I would like to see more linguistic arguments for this Atlantic spread.

I should probably take a look again at Koch etc. for the reasons behind the Atlantic model.

rms2
08-17-2018, 11:48 AM
This is interesting from page 38:



Bell Beaker groups migrated along the Atlantic seaboard, but also into Central northwestern Europe, where they met Corded Ware groups that stopped their expansion and took over the Bell Beaker package before migrating to England.


He is attributing the Kurgan Bell Beaker that went to Britain to Corded Ware/Single Grave.

Wish he had elaborated on that.

That sounds like Sangmeister: 1. BB migration eastward out of Iberia; 2. adoption of BB culture by CW; then
3. movement back to the west by the new hybrid culture/people.

Obvious problem: No R1b-M269 in CW thus far.

Another problem: No genetic signal of an Iberian BB migration.

rms2
08-17-2018, 01:00 PM
On the one hand, on page 38, Kristiansen attributes the Beaker migration to Britain to CW/Single Grave, but on page 29 he says this:



The migrations from Yamnay [sic] and the steppe brought different PIE
dialects to Europé. Represented also by two different male lineages,
R1a and R1b
• North of the Carpathians R1a male lineages expanded and turned
into the Corded Ware Culture, which would later develop into the
Germanic languages
• From the Yamnay migration into Hungary the R1b male lineages
spread westwards and adopted the Bell Beaker package, but
within genetic admixture. Borugh [sic] Italo-Celtic.


So, on page 29 he attributes Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker to two different Yamnaya migration routes: the R1a/CW route north of the Carpathians, and the R1b/KBB route into Hungary (i.e., the Carpathian basin).

R.Rocca
08-17-2018, 01:31 PM
So I suppose that would make (pre/proto) Lusitanian arrive in Iberia either with the Beaker folk or with the Atlantic Bronze? They were a Bronze age folk, but 2nd millenium seems a bit too early, from what I've read

I think the Beaker/Early Bronze Age would make sense given the links to Italic. If it is real, it could also explain Italic substrates in the Nordwestblock.

etrusco
08-17-2018, 04:19 PM
On the one hand, on page 38, Kristiansen attributes the Beaker migration to Britain to CW/Single Grave, but on page 29 he says this:



So, on page 29 he attributes Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker to two different Yamnaya migration routes: the R1a/CW route north of the Carpathians, and the R1b/KBB route into Hungary (i.e., the Carpathian basin).


I think their scheme makes no sense at all

The big CWC horizon cannot be limited to germanic languages. CWC spreads from the Rhine to the Moscow region and beyond and they think that this only germanic languages????? No clear germanic toponym east of the Oder and at most of the Vistula. The fact that they link CWC to germanic and the fact that they are from northern europe speaks a lot of their ethnocentric agenda.

CWC( if anything) is linked to Balto-Slavic in the west and Indo-Iranic to the east ( the back migration Sintashta- Andronovo) surely not with germanic.
And above all this theory that a source population on the steppe enters mainland europe a bunch of centuries from PIE stage already differentiated in Balto-slavic germanic in the north and italo celtic from Romania- Hungary.....it does not make any sense at all.
Hope this crap will soon be debunked.

razyn
08-17-2018, 06:22 PM
And above all this theory that a source population on the steppe enters mainland europe a bunch of centuries from PIE stage already differentiated in Balto-slavic germanic in the north and italo celtic from Romania- Hungary.....it does not make any sense at all.


The linguistic differentiation that interests (or is the basis of obsessions in) Eurocentric people with strong, current ethnic preferences is, for the most part, hundreds if not thousands of years more recent than the very broad and general separation between most R1a and most R1b that is a topic in Kristiansen's recent slide presentation. That genetic subgrouping did happen long enough ago to be reflected in Corded Ware cemeteries, broadly to the north or east of most Bell Beaker cemeteries. But those Eneolithic/Chalcolithic migrants out of the steppe weren't speaking Danish vs. Polish vs. Gaelic vs. Latin. None of them practiced Christianity, or any other modern religion. As we delve more deeply into the human past, at some point it makes sense to let go of these much younger causes of intertribal friction.

On another side issue, Kristiansen's slides are based on recent developments in several fields. He deserves neither credit nor blame for everything in this set of slides. But he has cobbled together a provocative sampling of a lot of pretty new correlations among these separate academic disciplines (linguistics, archaeology and genetics).

GoldenHind
08-17-2018, 11:10 PM
On the one hand, on page 38, Kristiansen attributes the Beaker migration to Britain to CW/Single Grave, but on page 29 he says this:



So, on page 29 he attributes Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker to two different Yamnaya migration routes: the R1a/CW route north of the Carpathians, and the R1b/KBB route into Hungary (i.e., the Carpathian basin).

It's pretty difficult to fit U106 and some other R1b subclades into such a simplistic model as that proposed by Kristiansen. i.e. R1a = Corded Ware = Germanic, and R1b = Bell Beaker = Italo-Celtic.

And what about the Slavs?

rms2
08-19-2018, 10:24 AM
It's pretty difficult to fit U106 and some other R1b subclades into such a simplistic model as that proposed by Kristiansen. i.e. R1a = Corded Ware = Germanic, and R1b = Bell Beaker = Italo-Celtic.

And what about the Slavs?

You'd have to ask Kristiansen. I wondered about all that myself, but I think he was very broadly generalizing and speaking more about west central and western Europe and not so much about east central and eastern Europe. He didn't say anything about the Indo-Iranians either.

He seems to be following Anthony in ascribing Germanic to CW and Italo-Celtic to KBB. I think that may be very broadly right, but agree that the details were more complex. I'm sure Anthony would say they were more complex, as well.

As I pointed out, Kristiansen isn't consistent in that presentation anyway. On the one hand he has Yamnaya-cum-CW migrating from the steppe via a north-of-the-Carpathians route, and Yamnaya-cum-KBB migrating from the steppe into Hungary, presumably up the Danube and over the Carpathians, but then he derives the KBB that went to Britain from Corded Ware.

rms2
09-05-2018, 11:12 AM
The abstract for the upcoming big Olalde et al paper on ancient Iberia has appeared among the abstracts from the 2018 ISBA conference:



The genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the last 8000 years

Olalde et al.

The Iberian Peninsula, lying on the southwestern corner of Europe, provides an excellent opportunity to assess the final impact of population movements entering the continent from the east and to study prehistoric and historic connections with North Africa. Previous studies have addressed the population history of Iberia using ancient genomes, but the final steps leading to the formation of the modern Iberian gene pool during the last 4000 years remain largely unexplored. Here we report genome-wide data from 153 ancient individuals from Iberia, more than doubling the number of available genomes from this region and providing the most comprehensive genetic transect of any region in the world during the last 8000 years. We find that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers dated to the last centuries before the arrival of farmers showed an increased genetic affinity to central European hunter-gatherers, as compared to earlier individuals. During the third millennium BCE, Iberia received newcomers from south and north. The presence of one individual with a North African origin in central Iberia demonstrates early sporadic contacts across the strait of Gibraltar. Beginning ~2500 BCE, the arrival of individuals with steppe-related ancestry had a rapid and widespread genetic impact, with Bronze Age populations deriving ~40% of their autosomal ancestry and 100% of their Y-chromosomes from these migrants. During the later Iron Age, the first genome-wide data from ancient non-Indo-European speakers showed that they were similar to contemporaneous Indo-European speakers and derived most of their ancestry from the earlier Bronze Age substratum. With the exception of Basques, who remain broadly similar to Iron Age populations, during the last 2500 years Iberian populations were affected by additional gene-flow from the Central/Eastern Mediterranean region, probably associated to the Roman conquest, and from North Africa during the Moorish conquest but also in earlier periods, probably related to the Phoenician-Punic colonization of Southern Iberia.

R.Rocca
09-05-2018, 12:25 PM
The abstract for the upcoming big Olalde et al paper on ancient Iberia has appeared among the abstracts from the 2018 ISBA conference:

You beat me to it, but I was also going to highlight this part of the abstract:


Here we report genome-wide data from 153 ancient individuals from Iberia, more than doubling the number of available genomes from this region and providing the most comprehensive genetic transect of any region in the world during the last 8000 years.

This will be a big blow to those that have argued that sampling bias was the reason for the lack of R-L51 and steppe ancestry in Late Neolithic samples from Iberia.

Ruderico
09-05-2018, 01:49 PM
Anyone know when we can expect it to be publically avaliable?

Very happy to see most of my ideas confirmed (bar Carthaginians, whom I considered kind of irrelevant). Sad there is no reference to Iron Age IE-speakers nor Suebi/Goths. Maybe they are in the paper, just not the abstract. Fingers crossed.

ADW_1981
09-05-2018, 02:10 PM
So it seems contact with N.Africa and other Mediterranean sources offset the Y-chr rates in Iberia with E-M81, J2, G-P303. So the question should not be, why is R1b high in the Basques, but rather, why is the R1b so low in Iberians? Seems like the authors are trying to prove this case. I suspect the Neolithic and Mesolithic Iberians make up a small subset of the Y-chr pool - ie: I2, R1b-V88, E-V13, G2(xP303)..etc

rms2
09-05-2018, 03:05 PM
Looks like the post Bronze Age incomers brought the level of steppe autosomal dna down, as well. The abstract says it was around 40% in Bronze Age Iberians. Now it's only around 30%, right?

Webb
09-05-2018, 03:10 PM
Looks like the post Bronze Age incomers brought the level of steppe autosomal dna down, as well. The abstract says it was around 40% in Bronze Age Iberians. Now it's only around 30%, right?

Another option is that the Bronze Age Iberians sampled were not fully mixed yet with locals?

R.Rocca
09-05-2018, 03:15 PM
I'm curious to see the ~2500 BC contrast between to Britain and Iberia. From the prior Olalde paper it seems like the Dutch and British east coast samples have ~60% autosomal steppe ancestry and ~100% R1b. If already IE speaking steppe R1b males took Corded Ware wives en route to the North Sea, it is easy to so why IE completely replaced Neolithic languages in Britain and Ireland. I and others have speculated in the past that the lower steppe autosomal component in Iberia may be due to a slower roll into Iberia. This may explain the fragmentation of IE languages in Iberia (Iberian/Basque versus Lusitanian/Celt-Iberian). The same is likely to have happened in Italy.

Ruderico
09-05-2018, 03:32 PM
Looks like the post Bronze Age incomers brought the level of steppe autosomal dna down, as well. The abstract says it was around 40% in Bronze Age Iberians. Now it's only around 30%, right?

25-30% EMBA_Steppe, 50-60% BB_Netherlands. I assume they mean BB-related ancestry instead of simply Steppe, as they state "individuals with steppe-related ancestry" not simply "steppe individuals", so basically 40% Beaker. This value would be lower than today's, and roughly in line with modern Basques. Other BA Iberian samples from other studies carried similar amounts, so I'm not expecting any significant changes to our understanding of BA Iberia

Edit: There is the possibility these individuals were richer in Steppe-related ancestry than BB_Netherlands though, and that today we have less of it, but until we read the paper we don't really know. But I'm not counting on it, it just doesn't seem very parsimonious

rms2
09-05-2018, 05:30 PM
25-30% EMBA_Steppe, 50-60% BB_Netherlands. I assume they mean BB-related ancestry instead of simply Steppe, as they state "individuals with steppe-related ancestry" not simply "steppe individuals", so basically 40% Beaker. This value would be lower than today's, and roughly in line with modern Basques. Other BA Iberian samples from other studies carried similar amounts, so I'm not expecting any significant changes to our understanding of BA Iberia

Edit: There is the possibility these individuals were richer in Steppe-related ancestry than BB_Netherlands though, and that today we have less of it, but until we read the paper we don't really know. But I'm not counting on it, it just doesn't seem very parsimonious

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that "steppe-related autosomal ancestry" means Yamnaya, not Bell Beaker, since BB had autosomal dna that was not 100% "steppe related".

Ruderico
09-05-2018, 05:41 PM
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that "steppe-related autosomal ancestry" means Yamnaya, not Bell Beaker, since BB had autosomal dna that was not 100% "steppe related".

"the arrival of individuals with steppe-related ancestry had a rapid and widespread genetic impact, with Bronze Age populations deriving ~40% of their autosomal ancestry and 100% of their Y-chromosomes from these migrants."

They just say that the newcomers had steppe ancestry and contributed 40% of their genome to Bronze Age populations (local BA Iberians), that's how interpret their sentence anyway.
40% Yamnaya is, what, modern English levels? I don't see that as very likely in a fringe place like Iberia this early in time.

Nibelung
09-05-2018, 06:03 PM
To what extent does the GAC neolithic profile resemble the Iberian? I believe the one Funnelbeaker we have does, as well as of course the Isles neolithic.

R.Rocca
09-05-2018, 06:17 PM
Perhaps more important to this thread will be the following paper:


Genetic transition in the Swiss Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age
A. Furtwängler et al

Major genetic turnovers in European populations marked the beginning as well as final stages of the Neolithic period as shown
by recent studies. The transition from hunter-gatherers to agriculturalists and farmers in the 6th millennium BCE coincided
with a human migration from the Near East. A second migration into Central Europe occurred originating from the Pontic
steppe in the 3rd millennium BCE and was linked to the spread of the Corded Ware Culture which ranged as far southwest as
modern day Western Switzerland. These genetic processes are well studied, for example for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region in
Eastern Germany, however, little is known from the regions that connect Central and Southern Europe.
In this study, we investigate genome-wide data from 97 individuals from the Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace
Region in France that span the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (5500 to 4000 BP). Our results show a similar
genetic process as reported for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all
the way into the Swiss Plateau. However, our evidence suggests that the onset of that transition may have started even earlier
in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale region.

The existence of core families within multiple burials, the determination and quantification of different ancestry components
and the evaluation of a migration route taken by the ancestors of the Late Neolithic populations in this region were analysed.
Our data represent the first comprehensive genome wide dataset from Neolithic individuals from the Swiss Plateau and
provide the first insights into the genetic history of this region.

All three of these regions studied (Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace) had Corded Ware to Bell Beaker transitions. They mention the earlier arrival of steppe migrants to Switzerland than the Middle-Elbe-Saale region. Do they mean Corded Ware people, or early Steppe Bell Beaker people? Should be interesting.

jdean
09-05-2018, 06:25 PM
Fingers crossed this conference will be reasonably reported.

R.Rocca
09-05-2018, 08:22 PM
I'm expecting a lot of U152+ L2+, but this one should be interesting also:


Ancient genomes from the Lech Valley, Bavaria, suggest socially stratified households in the European Bronze Age

Archaeogenetic research has so far focused on supra-regional and long-term genetic developments in Central Europe,
especially during the third millennium BC. However, detailed high-resolution studies of population dynamics in a microregional
context can provide valuable insights into the social structure of prehistoric societies and the modes of cultural
transition.

Here, we present the genomic analysis of 102 individuals from the Lech valley in southern Bavaria, Germany, which offers ideal
conditions for such a study. Several burial sites containing rich archaeological material were directly dated to the second half
of the 3rd and first half of the 2nd millennium BCE and were associated with the Final Neolithic Bell Beaker Complex and the
Early and Middle Bronze Age. Strontium isotope data show that the inhabitants followed a strictly patrilocal residential system.
We demonstrate the impact of the population movement that originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the 3rd millennium
BCE and subsequent local developments. Utilising relatedness inference methods developed for low-coverage modern DNA
we reconstruct farmstead related pedigrees and find a strong association between relatedness and grave goods suggesting
that social status is passed down within families. The co-presence of biologically related and unrelated individuals in every
farmstead implies a socially stratified complex household in the Central European Bronze Age.

MitchellSince1893
09-06-2018, 03:27 AM
I'm expecting a lot of U152+ L2+, but this one should be interesting also:

Between these two papers (Swiss Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age & and Ancient genomes from the Lech Valley, Bavaria), maybe ancient U152>L2>Z49 will finally be found in one or more of these ancient samples on the Northern slope of the Alps. Here's hoping.

alan
09-06-2018, 06:49 AM
Something struck me last night that is so obvious that i’ve never really thought about it’s implications. There is evidence that even items of core male material culture could be borrowed by beaker people. Even an absolutely core aspects of male beaker identity was subject to magpie tendencies of the P312 beaker people. There is no doubt that the hollow based arrowhead is the original one associated with P312 beaker people. It’s likelt of steppe origin. However, when P312 beaker people reached the Rhine they were perfectly happy to borrow the barbed and tanged arrowhead which was already present and dominant in non steppe cultures in France, Iberia, Italy, the Alps etc and from the Rhine it was taken to the isles. That willingness to borrow fashions - including male ones - explains how very difficult it was to work put the origins of the beaker people prior to ancient dna.

rms2
09-06-2018, 11:49 AM
To what extent does the GAC neolithic profile resemble the Iberian? I believe the one Funnelbeaker we have does, as well as of course the Isles neolithic.

I don't know exactly, but I don't think it does much at all, since Olalde et al said there was little or no Iberian autosomal dna in Kurgan Bell Beaker but also said that GAC + Swedish TRB was the best fit for the Neolithic component in Kurgan Bell Beaker. (That GAC+TRB bit was in the pre-print, anyway. The final edition of the paper was less specific but basically said the same thing.)

R.Rocca
09-06-2018, 12:51 PM
From the Olalde Iberian abstract, this is also very important:


During the later Iron Age, the first genome-wide data from ancient non-Indo-European speakers showed that they were similar to contemporaneous Indo-European speakers and derived most of their ancestry from the earlier Bronze Age substratum.

The only way that they could have come to that conclusion is if they tested Iron Age non-Indo-Europeans (Iberians, Vascones) and Indo-Europeans (Celt-Iberians, Lusitanians). This assumes that the comparison is being made to contemporaneous Indo-Europeans from within Iberia and not elsewhere.

Ruderico
09-06-2018, 02:46 PM
Yes, but "similar" is a vague term. If the difference between them is +10% BB-related VS +10% CA_Iberia-related I'd still call them similar, but the difference would be there

GASKA
09-06-2018, 03:07 PM
The abstract for the upcoming big Olalde et al paper on ancient Iberia has appeared among the abstracts from the 2018 ISBA conference:

Thank you very much, it seems that the famous Iberian results re coming.

1-What means in Spanish "beginning 2.500 BC, the arrival of steppe individuals....."?- It means than before 2.500 BC have already found P312 in Iberia? This would mean advancing 200 years the arrival of the haplogroup to the peninsula. This is consistent with the fact that the samples that had been found only had 15% of steppe ancestry.

2.- We already know that the Iberian Bronze Age /We date this period between 2.000-1.000 BC) is practically 100% R1b-P312. Only this haplogroup has been found in the Argar, Cogotas and Atlantic Bronze cultures. I said, that the important thing is to know WHEN this substitution occurred, and if this occurred due to the greater reproductive success of autochtonous haplogroups or because the arrival of Central European migrants.

3.- "One individual of North African origin"- I think Olalde refers to a woman with Mit-Haplogroup L who appeared in a BB burial in Madrid. The skull was willingly deformed. Never again has this haplogroup been find in prehistoric Spain. This finding confirms the ivory trade with Africa and Asia that I have mentioned many times.


4-"During the later Iron Age"- He only can refer to the period between 500 BC, and the Roman conquest (218 BC-20 BC). "Data from Non Indoeuropean speakers", means that he has analyzed genome of Basques, Iacetanos in Aragón (brothers of the Aquitanians-France), and Iberians (Ilergetes, edetans, layetans etc....) and that they were very similar to the cases of the Bronze Age (2.000-1.000 BC) and to the Indoeuropean speakers. THis means that they have also achieved DNA from CELTIC tribes of Iberia- (Vettones, celtiberians, astures, galaicos, lusitanos vacceos etc...). If this is so, IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT, because it eliminates the possibility of entry of Indoeuropean peoples in the peninsula during the Iron Age, which means that the Indo-European Iberian languages should have entered during the chalcolitic (and NOT during the Bronze or Iron Ages), and explain the differences between Iberian continental Celtic and the Irish one (developed for separate during at least 2.000 years).

5.- We also know that the Basques didn' were affected by additional gene flow from the Mediterranean region (several colonies of Veteran Roman soldiers settled in Hispania- Itálica, Emérita Augusta, Caesar Augusta...). I suppose these men would have diversity of haplogroups (mainly J2, G2, U152......) and from North Africa (moors-E1b, Phoenicians- probably T).







1.- What means

GASKA
09-06-2018, 03:40 PM
[QUOTE=R.Rocca;479962]You beat me to it, but I was also going to highlight this part of the abstract:

Let's see what are the dates and location of the 153 analyzed genomes.

GASKA
09-06-2018, 04:03 PM
Something struck me last night that is so obvious that i’ve never really thought about it’s implications. There is evidence that even items of core male material culture could be borrowed by beaker people. Even an absolutely core aspects of male beaker identity was subject to magpie tendencies of the P312 beaker people. There is no doubt that the hollow based arrowhead is the original one associated with P312 beaker people. It’s likelt of steppe origin. However, when P312 beaker people reached the Rhine they were perfectly happy to borrow the barbed and tanged arrowhead which was already present and dominant in non steppe cultures in France, Iberia, Italy, the Alps etc and from the Rhine it was taken to the isles. That willingness to borrow fashions - including male ones - explains how very difficult it was to work put the origins of the beaker people prior to ancient dna.

The barbed and tanged arrowhead are documented in France and Spanish caves of the Solutrean period (20.000-15.000 BC, they are as old as hunting). It seems impossible that anyone knew them in Central and Eastern Europe, I think they didn't change their way of making arrows, simply P312 is western.

GASKA
09-06-2018, 04:14 PM
The British knew what these arrowheads were before the arrival of the BB culture. Look at this photo- Barbed and tanged arrowhead-Neolithic-Etton Woodgate25709

Amesbury archer didn't bring anything new to the ritish islands.

alan
09-06-2018, 04:44 PM
The barbed and tanged arrowhead are documented in France and Spanish caves of the Solutrean period (20.000-15.000 BC, they are as old as hunting). It seems impossible that anyone knew them in Central and Eastern Europe, I think they didn't change their way of making arrows, simply P312 is western.

Unlike British beakers, Irish beaker folk preferred the hollow based ones although they used both. In Ireland the barbed and tanged arrowhead only became the dominant type in the food vessel era after 2200BC. It’s not the only case of Ireland being unexpectedly Central European in choice: polypody vessels are far more common inin beaker Ireland than Britain

R.Rocca
09-06-2018, 05:51 PM
Thank you very much, it seems that the famous Iberian results re coming.

1-What means in Spanish "beginning 2.500 BC, the arrival of steppe individuals....."?- It means than before 2.500 BC have already found P312 in Iberia? This would mean advancing 200 years the arrival of the haplogroup to the peninsula. This is consistent with the fact that the samples that had been found only had 15% of steppe ancestry.

2.- We already know that the Iberian Bronze Age /We date this period between 2.000-1.000 BC) is practically 100% R1b-P312. Only this haplogroup has been found in the Argar, Cogotas and Atlantic Bronze cultures. I said, that the important thing is to know WHEN this substitution occurred, and if this occurred due to the greater reproductive success of autochtonous haplogroups or because the arrival of Central European migrants.

3.- "One individual of North African origin"- I think Olalde refers to a woman with Mit-Haplogroup L who appeared in a BB burial in Madrid. The skull was willingly deformed. Never again has this haplogroup been find in prehistoric Spain. This finding confirms the ivory trade with Africa and Asia that I have mentioned many times.

4-"During the later Iron Age"- He only can refer to the period between 500 BC, and the Roman conquest (218 BC-20 BC). "Data from Non Indoeuropean speakers", means that he has analyzed genome of Basques, Iacetanos in Aragón (brothers of the Aquitanians-France), and Iberians (Ilergetes, edetans, layetans etc....) and that they were very similar to the cases of the Bronze Age (2.000-1.000 BC) and to the Indoeuropean speakers. THis means that they have also achieved DNA from CELTIC tribes of Iberia- (Vettones, celtiberians, astures, galaicos, lusitanos vacceos etc...). If this is so, IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT, because it eliminates the possibility of entry of Indoeuropean peoples in the peninsula during the Iron Age, which means that the Indo-European Iberian languages should have entered during the chalcolitic (and NOT during the Bronze or Iron Ages), and explain the differences between Iberian continental Celtic and the Irish one (developed for separate during at least 2.000 years).

5.- We also know that the Basques didn' were affected by additional gene flow from the Mediterranean region (several colonies of Veteran Roman soldiers settled in Hispania- Itálica, Emérita Augusta, Caesar Augusta...). I suppose these men would have diversity of haplogroups (mainly J2, G2, U152......) and from North Africa (moors-E1b, Phoenicians- probably T).

1.- What means

Yes, if the 2500 BC date is the terminus post quem for both steppe ancestry and P312 in Iberia, then it will be interesting to compare it to the early dates we have from Bavaria and the Netherlands. Dates from the Swiss Plateau paper that is coming out would be interesting as well.

GASKA
09-06-2018, 07:10 PM
Yes, if the 2500 BC date is the terminus post quem for both steppe ancestry and P312 in Iberia, then it will be interesting to compare it to the early dates we have from Bavaria and the Netherlands. Dates from the Swiss Plateau paper that is coming out would be interesting as well.

It wouldn't only be interesting, can you imagine that the steppe ancestry percentage was bigger than in Bavaria or the Netherlands?

Or that Olalde has found R1b-P312 older than the Central European and with less amount of steppe ancestry?

This week, I´ve been talking to a Basque geneticist, who has explained something to me about autosomal DNA. According to him, the autosomal component that truly defines the Yamnaya culture is not EEG, but CHG, and Basques absolutely lack CHG. What do you think?

Regarding the social stratification in the BB culture, one of the richest BB burials in Spain (Fuente Olmedo prince), containing the remains of a 17 years old male and is interpreted by archaeologists as a sign of hereditary power, because at that age (17) is very unlikely that he was a great warrior, archer or trader.

25710

R.Rocca
09-06-2018, 07:46 PM
It wouldn't only be interesting, can you imagine that the steppe ancestry percentage was bigger than in Bavaria or the Netherlands?

The early samples from both Bavaria and the Netherlands have close to Corded Ware levels. Given that this new abstract states only 40% for Bronze Age Iberia, the scenario you mentioned seems very unlikely.


Or that Olalde has found R1b-P312 older than the Central European and with less amount of steppe ancestry?


They stated a 100% Y-chromosome replacement in Iberia starting ~2500 BC which would make it no earlier than Bavaria and the Netherlands.


This week, I´ve been talking to a Basque geneticist, who has explained something to me about autosomal DNA. According to him, the autosomal component that truly defines the Yamnaya culture is not EEG, but CHG, and Basques absolutely lack CHG. What do you think?

That is not true, and sorry to be so blunt, but any population geneticist that says otherwise is not very good as his job. EHG and CHG are both needed to make up the Yamnaya signal and that has been shown over and over again in academic studies. I think I remember this coming up in the past and, while Basques seems to have a slightly lower amount of CHG than other modern Iberians, they do have some. That some CHG came from the central and eastern Mediterranean in non-Basque populations likely explains why. The only thing that CHG on it's own truly defines is Caucasus and Iranian hunter-gatherers before the spread of agriculture.

GASKA
09-06-2018, 08:50 PM
The early samples from both Bavaria and the Netherlands have close to Corded Ware levels. Given that this new abstract states only 40% for Bronze Age Iberia, the scenario you mentioned seems very unlikely.



They stated a 100% Y-chromosome replacement in Iberia starting ~2500 BC which would make it no earlier than Bavaria and the Netherlands.



That is not true, and sorry to be so blunt, but any population geneticist that says otherwise is not very good as his job. EHG and CHG are both needed to make up the Yamnaya signal and that has been shown over and over again in academic studies. I think I remember this coming up in the past and, while Basques seems to have a slightly lower amount of CHG than other modern Iberians, they do have some. That some CHG came from the central and eastern Mediterranean in non-Basque populations likely explains why. The only thing that CHG on it's own truly defines is Caucasus and Iranian hunter-gatherers before the spread of agriculture.

I understand what you are saying, but EHG (Karelia, Samara...) derives from Mal'ta (R*-ANE). If all European and African R1a and R1b descend from R *, they will all have ANE ancestry and therefore the true differentiating element (for example between Villabruna and a Central European BB) would be the CHG component. Perhaps the small percentage of steppe ancestry in the Iberian P312 BBs comes from Iberian ancestors (r1b V88- Els Trocs or Cerdanyola) and not directly from the steppes. I guess the new data from Olalde will help clarify my doubts. I also suppose that new discoveries of ancient dna could modify the current autosomal markers.

Un saludo.

rms2
09-06-2018, 10:57 PM
Thank you very much, it seems that the famous Iberian results re coming.

1-What means in Spanish "beginning 2.500 BC, the arrival of steppe individuals....."?- It means than before 2.500 BC have already found P312 in Iberia? This would mean advancing 200 years the arrival of the haplogroup to the peninsula. This is consistent with the fact that the samples that had been found only had 15% of steppe ancestry . . .

No, it does not mean that P312 was found in Iberia before 2500 BC. Notice too, what the abstract actually says: "Beginning ~2500 BCE".

That little symbol, ~, means "around" or "approximately". It does not mean they necessarily have samples with steppe dna and P312 that date to precisely 2500 BC.

Remember, too, that Olalde is from Reich's lab at Harvard, and Reich already told us in his book what to expect from this paper.

From Who We Are and How We Got Here, pages 239-240:



This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.28 We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.


So, before the arrival of the newcomers with steppe dna, there was no R1b-P312 in Iberia.

They've tested more samples from Iberia, and evidently there were no surprises. Just as in the Olalde et al Bell Beaker paper, no P312 was found predating the arrival of the steppe-derived Kurgan Bell Beaker people circa 2500 BC.

alan
09-06-2018, 11:02 PM
2500BC has always been used as a ballpark date for the sudden expansion of beaker across Europe. Even in the isles where the real date is likely 2400BC and in Central Europe where beaker apparently started about 2550BC. So 2500BC tends to be slackly used as a shorthand. In general there is a lot that can confound RC dating of human bone so the exact detail of the dates, samples and if they checked for dietary marine and freshwater reservoir effect from eating fish and shellfish which can make dates come out too old. Iberia did have a far bigger such dietary component than most beaker groups - most of whom avoided it. So let’s hope they threw the testing kitchen sink at the samples that were dated. If they haven’t and the samples come from coastal area or major rivers then they could be producing data that are several centuries too old.

rms2
09-06-2018, 11:08 PM
. . . Perhaps the small percentage of steppe ancestry in the Iberian P312 BBs comes from Iberian ancestors (r1b V88- Els Trocs or Cerdanyola) and not directly from the steppes . . .

Absolutely not. How could Els Trocs or Cerdanyola pass down something they did not possess?

That is one of the big reasons no one gets his y chromosome from his mother: she doesn't have one to give him. Similarly, Els Trocs and Cerdanyola had no steppe dna, so they couldn't pass steppe dna down to anyone.

One of the Iberian Kurgan BB's had about 15% steppe dna. You call that a "small percentage". I don't think it is. Maybe it is relative to the percentage of steppe dna in British Kurgan Bell Beaker or in an actual Yamnaya skeleton, but 15% is still pretty significant.

I know if 15% of my own autosomal dna indicated a certain type of origin, I would sit up and pay attention and want to know how to account for it.

Besides, the relatively lower percentage of steppe dna in Iberia is just illustrative of how the transformation occurred there. Recall again what Reich wrote on pages 239-240 of his book:



This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago.

Pretty obviously the introduction of steppe autosomal dna and steppe y-dna was strongly male mediated. That explains why, as Reich said, "the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome".

And which example of this is most striking?



The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago.

alan
09-07-2018, 05:15 AM
Of all the P312 beaker groups, the bell beaker east group is clearly the oldest. Within the latter group it seems clear that the oldest dates and less mixed manifestations of the culitire lie in locations that don’t suggest the lower or middle Danube was used as an east-west route. The traits of the group broadly resemble trends that wet appearing in Eastern Europe and the carpathian fringes c2600BC - (hollow based arrow type, archery kits, north-south buries orientation etc) rather than the typical traits of the big wave of CW that had gone as far west as the Rhine and Switzerland 200ys before). So these P312 people originated in a place within it close to where all these new eastern trends were arising c2699BC. They look v much derived from Eastern European cultures of c2600BC. That fits the evidence that P312 is a new wave that came west after the big CW wave.

GASKA
09-07-2018, 08:21 AM
No, it does not mean that P312 was found in Iberia before 2500 BC. Notice too, what the abstract actually says: "Beginning ~2500 BCE".

That little symbol, ~, means "around" or "approximately". It does not mean they necessarily have samples with steppe dna and P312 that date to precisely 2500 BC.

Remember, too, that Olalde is from Reich's lab at Harvard, and Reich already told us in his book what to expect from this paper.

From Who We Are and How We Got Here, pages 239-240:



So, before the arrival of the newcomers with steppe dna, there was no R1b-P312 in Iberia.

They've tested more samples from Iberia, and evidently there were no surprises. Just as in the Olalde et al Bell Beaker paper, no P312 was found predating the arrival of the steppe-derived Kurgan Bell Beaker people circa 2500 BC.

Around or approximately 2.500 BC, means therefore that you can have samples between 2.550-2.450 BC. We have already seen many times that the oldest samples of P312 in Central and Western Europe are Osterhofen (U152-2.456 BC), Sierentz (P312-2.427 BC) and Oostwoud (P312-2.406 BC). Regarding Sierentz, there are doubts about its age, because another P312, brother of the previous one (according to his Mitochondrial Hap) is dated 2.345 BC. In any case, all these dates are later than 2.500 BC. P312 has not been found yet in the steppes, Hungary, the Balkans etc....and I think everyone should accept an origin in Saxony or Alsace (pretty close to the Franco-Cantabrian region). Everything else are theories or speculations.

Can you imagine what will happen if R1b-P312 appears in Iberia (2.550 BC)? It would be the oldest case in Europe and of course of the whole world. In my land, we say that "you can not sell the skin of the bear before hunting it", and therefore everyone has to be cautious and wait for the results.

This week I have also visited 2 BB sites near Madrid (I think that everyone interested in archaelogy and genetics should do it sometime). Everything they find is spectacular, and specially sad are the burials of children. Seeing the burials, each time I'm less interested in their origin and more in the ability they had to survive with so few resources and knowledge.

GASKA
09-07-2018, 08:46 AM
Absolutely not. How could Els Trocs or Cerdanyola pass down something they did not possess?

That is one of the big reasons no one gets his y chromosome from his mother: she doesn't have one to give him. Similarly, Els Trocs and Cerdanyola had no steppe dna, so they couldn't pass steppe dna down to anyone.

One of the Iberian Kurgan BB's had about 15% steppe dna. You call that a "small percentage". I don't think it is. Maybe it is relative to the percentage of steppe dna in British Kurgan Bell Beaker or in an actual Yamnaya skeleton, but 15% is still pretty significant.

I know if 15% of my own autosomal dna indicated a certain type of origin, I would sit up and pay attention and want to know how to account for it.

Besides, the relatively lower percentage of steppe dna in Iberia is just illustrative of how the transformation occurred there. Recall again what Reich wrote on pages 239-240 of his book:



Pretty obviously the introduction of steppe autosomal dna and steppe y-dna was strongly male mediated. That explains why, as Reich said, "the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome".

And which example of this is most striking?

Ok, but all of them (Villabruna, Iboussieres, els Trocs, Samara, Latvian hunter gatherers.....) theoretically descend from Mal'ta R*, and supposedly, in addition to the variations on the Ychromosome, they should share certain autosomal markers to a greater or leaser degree.

Do not conserve all humans outside of Africa 1-2% of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA? and this after thousands of years. For me the autsomal DNA is an absolutely mistery.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/20/066431

rms2
09-07-2018, 11:43 AM
Around or approximately 2.500 BC, means therefore that you can have samples between 2.550-2.450 BC.

You are demanding too much precision from that "~2500 BCE" date referred to in the abstract. As alan mentioned earlier, 2500 BC is the ballpark figure almost always cited for Kurgan Bell Beaker everywhere. It doesn't mean Olalde et al have any Kurgan Bell Beaker samples from Iberia that are that old or that fall precisely in your narrow, 100-year window.



We have already seen many times that the oldest samples of P312 in Central and Western Europe are Osterhofen (U152-2.456 BC), Sierentz (P312-2.427 BC) and Oostwoud (P312-2.406 BC). Regarding Sierentz, there are doubts about its age, because another P312, brother of the previous one (according to his Mitochondrial Hap) is dated 2.345 BC. In any case, all these dates are later than 2.500 BC. P312 has not been found yet in the steppes, Hungary, the Balkans etc....and I think everyone should accept an origin in Saxony or Alsace (pretty close to the Franco-Cantabrian region). Everything else are theories or speculations.

There are Central European Beaker samples that predate 2500 BC. At least one of the samples from Kromsdorf, Germany, dated to 2600 BC, as I recall. I4144, an R1b-P312 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt in Germany is radiocarbon dated to 2572-2512 BC.

I suspect Reich, Olalde, and company already know of P312 in Yamnaya, which is the reason they speak so confidently of y chromosomes of steppe origin in Iberia and elsewhere in western Europe. I don't think they would be using language like that, without restraint or caveat, if they did not know it to be a fact. You're free to disagree, but I think they would be hedging their bets (i.e., they would be more careful in their language) if there were any doubt.



Can you imagine what will happen if R1b-P312 appears in Iberia (2.550 BC)? It would be the oldest case in Europe and of course of the whole world.

I think you're dreaming, still hoping that somehow, despite all the contrary evidence, P312 was born in Iberia.

That boat left the dock a long time ago.

If, by some strange chance, an R1b-P312 shows up in Iberia that dates to before 2550 BC, he will have steppe dna, and it will simply mean a man of steppe ancestry got there a trifle earlier than we thought.

But, honestly, how likely is that to happen, given what Reich wrote in his book and what's in Olalde's abstract?



In my land, we say that "you can not sell the skin of the bear before hunting it", and therefore everyone has to be cautious and wait for the results . . .

I might agree, but I don't, because Reich already made things pretty clear in his book. We've been told what the results are, and we were also told that Dan Bradley's team, working independently of Reich's team, found the same thing.

It baffles me how anyone could read that and the new Olalde et al abstract and still dream that somehow, some way, P312 was born in Iberia, and maybe horses were first domesticated there, and all this fuss about steppe dna is just an illusion.

rms2
09-07-2018, 11:53 AM
Ok, but all of them (Villabruna, Iboussieres, els Trocs, Samara, Latvian hunter gatherers.....) theoretically descend from Mal'ta R*, and supposedly, in addition to the variations on the Ychromosome, they should share certain autosomal markers to a greater or leaser degree.

Do not conserve all humans outside of Africa 1-2% of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA? and this after thousands of years. For me the autsomal DNA is an absolutely mistery.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/20/066431

It takes only about 150 years to completely wash out an autosomal signal if the lineage involved has been breeding within a population that carries none of that signal itself.

Signals of past populations persist within groups of people who carry them, at least to some extent; otherwise they can disappear within a few generations. If an individual who carries ANE, for example, moves into a population that has no ANE, breeds within that group, and founds a line that continues to breed within that ANE-less group, within a few generations ANE will not be present in his descendants.

GASKA
09-07-2018, 12:44 PM
You are demanding too much precision from that "~2500 BCE" date referred to in the abstract. As alan mentioned earlier, 2500 BC is the ballpark figure almost always cited for Kurgan Bell Beaker everywhere. It doesn't mean Olalde et al have any Kurgan Bell Beaker samples from Iberia that are that old or that fall precisely in your narrow, 100-year window.



There are Central European Beaker samples that predate 2500 BC. At least one of the samples from Kromsdorf, Germany, dated to 2600 BC, as I recall. I4144, an R1b-P312 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt in Germany is radiocarbon dated to 2572-2512 BC.

I suspect Reich, Olalde, and company already know of P312 in Yamnaya, which is the reason they speak so confidently of y chromosomes of steppe origin in Iberia and elsewhere in western Europe. I don't think they would be using language like that, without restraint or caveat, if they did not know it to be a fact. You're free to disagree, but I think they would be hedging their bets (i.e., they would be more careful in their language) if there were any doubt.



I think you're dreaming, still hoping that somehow, despite all the contrary evidence, P312 was born in Iberia.

That boat left the dock a long time ago.

If, by some strange chance, an R1b-P312 shows up in Iberia that dates to before 2550 BC, he will have steppe dna, and it will simply mean a man of steppe ancestry got there a trifle earlier than we thought.

But, honestly, how likely is that to happen, given what Reich wrote in his book and what's in Olalde's abstract?



I might agree, but I don't, because Reich already made things pretty clear in his book. We've been told what the results are, and we were also told that Dan Bradley's team, working independently of Reich's team, found the same thing.

It baffles me how anyone could read that and the new Olalde et al abstract and still dream that somehow, some way, P312 was born in Iberia, and maybe horses were first domesticated there, and all this fuss about steppe dna is just an illusion.

Well, you already know that researchers are often tempted to advance the achievement of spectacular results to draw attention to their work. It may be that Reich knows of the existence of P312 in Yamnaya (I doubt it very much), however, I already told you once, that Spanish geneticits should know something because they always talk about haplogroups coming from the Russian steppes (literally). I think they referred to the sites of la Almoloya and la Bastida (Argar culture), where there is bone evidence of men riding horses.

It might be that they have set the limit of 2.500 BC as the key date for the great genetic change in Iberia, taking into account the general chronology of the BB culture in Central Europe (2.500-2.000 BC), or may be, they have analyzed more deposits (I hope so). From the abstract of the conference, I think that the news will come from the Bronze age (cultures of Argar, Motillas and Cogotas) and Iron Age (I don't know what sites, they may have used, because the Celts, at least in Iberia, incinerated the corpses).

In any case, and although the paper doesn't definitively resolve our controversy, it's clear that it will be very important to understand the prehistory of Spain and Portugal.

Regarding the domestication of the horse, mitochondrial haplogroup C1 (part of Lusitanian horses), ONLY exists in Iberia(and of course, their descentants in North and South America thanks to the Spanish conquerors) and is documented here at least since the neolithic. This means that this race was tamed in Iberia (and only here) during the chalcolithic. Where do you think this races came from? Spanish Mustang- Choctaw horse-Florida Cracker horse- Banker Horse and Marsh Tacky. Americans should be grateful to the Spaniards.

I have never said that P312 was born in Iberia, but in the Franco-Cantabrian region, and only because Spanish geneticists think so in a generalized way.

Romilius
09-07-2018, 12:56 PM
Well, you already know that researchers are often tempted to advance the achievement of spectacular results to draw attention to their work. It may be that Reich knows of the existence of P312 in Yamnaya (I doubt it very much), however, I already told you once, that Spanish geneticits should know something because they always talk about haplogroups coming from the Russian steppes (literally). I think they referred to the sites of la Almoloya and la Bastida (Argar culture), where there is bone evidence of men riding horses.

It might be that they have set the limit of 2.500 BC as the key date for the great genetic change in Iberia, taking into account the general chronology of the BB culture in Central Europe (2.500-2.000 BC), or may be, they have analyzed more deposits (I hope so). From the abstract of the conference, I think that the news will come from the Bronze age (cultures of Argar, Motillas and Cogotas) and Iron Age (I don't know what sites, they may have used, because the Celts, at least in Iberia, incinerated the corpses).

In any case, and although the paper doesn't definitively resolve our controversy, it's clear that it will be very important to understand the prehistory of Spain and Portugal.

Regarding the domestication of the horse, mitochondrial haplogroup C1 (part of Lusitanian horses), ONLY exists in Iberia(and of course, their descentants in North and South America thanks to the Spanish conquerors) and is documented here at least since the neolithic. This means that this race was tamed in Iberia (and only here) during the chalcolithic. Where do you think this races came from? Spanish Mustang- Choctaw horse-Florida Cracker horse- Banker Horse and Marsh Tacky. Americans should be grateful to the Spaniards.

I have never said that P312 was born in Iberia, but in the Franco-Cantabrian region, and only because Spanish geneticists think so in a generalized way.

Sorry, but do you really think that respectable researchers like David Reich and his team, respectable universitary institutions come out greatly and spectacularly with those statements without having proofs of what they are stating or only because of a not very explained weakness to spectacular announces?

We already know what does happen when drawing hasty conclusions: let's think about Oppenheimer's book... now only useful as a wedge for tables. Obviously, Oppenheimer was a pioner, and a honourful one, but with only 12 (or so... I don't remember) markers is impossible to draw the history of half the population of Europe.

And I beg your pardon... but where are the proof by Spanish scientists about a Franco-Cantabrian origin? Any publication? Any paper?

GASKA
09-07-2018, 01:44 PM
Sorry, but do you really think that respectable researchers like David Reich and his team, respectable universitary institutions come out greatly and spectacularly with those statements without having proofs of what they are stating or only because of a not very explained weakness to spectacular announces?

We already know what does happen when drawing hasty conclusions: let's think about Oppenheimer's book... now only useful as a wedge for tables. Obviously, Oppenheimer was a pioner, and a honourful one, but with only 12 (or so... I don't remember) markers is impossible to draw the history of half the population of Europe.

And I beg your pardon... but where are the proof by Spanish scientists about a Franco-Cantabrian origin? Any publication? Any paper?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755366/

Webb
09-07-2018, 02:39 PM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755366/

This is in the first paragraph of the paper.

"The dissection of S116 in more than 1500 individuals from Atlantic Europe and the Iberian Peninsula has provided important clues about the controversial evolutionary history of M269. First, the results do not point to an origin of M269 in the Franco–Cantabrian refuge, owing to the lack of sublineage diversity within M269, which supports the new theories proposing its origin in Eastern Europe."

Romilius
09-07-2018, 02:42 PM
This is in the first paragraph of the paper.

"The dissection of S116 in more than 1500 individuals from Atlantic Europe and the Iberian Peninsula has provided important clues about the controversial evolutionary history of M269. First, the results do not point to an origin of M269 in the Franco–Cantabrian refuge, owing to the lack of sublineage diversity within M269, which supports the new theories proposing its origin in Eastern Europe."

I read the first paragraph too... I was like astonished when I realized that GASKA brought as a proof an article that goes against his ideas... Does he understand what papers say?

GASKA
09-07-2018, 02:44 PM
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/coming-focus

Pay attention in this interview to David Reich.

1.- "This extraordinary archaelogical culture, the Bell Beaker complex, that it's first documented in Western Europe about 4.700 years ago, and spread into central and Northern Europe by 4.500 years ago"- It's evident that he thinks the same as me, that is, an Iberian origin of the BB culture. Sangmeister (who has inspired this thread) also thought so.

2.- "We found that these populations were genetically heterogeneus. We found sites in Hungary and France where people with different ancestries, b Basically multiracial groups of people are buried side by side with beaker pots by their heads". I agree.

And this is the answer that has generated the controversy.

3.- "We found that the Beaker population in Iberia was genetically very different from the Beaker population in Central Europe"- GROSSLY MISTAKE- In the 5 BB Iberian burials studied approximately half of the men are R1b-P312, exactly the same haplogroup as in the rest of Europe. The only difference is the steppe ancestry percentage.

"A very similar culture was shared by 2 biologically distinct groups" I agree with Reich, only 1 BB culture.

"The Iberian BB samples were genetically indistinguisable from the NON-BB iberians they lived among"- How can he say that? They belong to different Y haplogroups.

An to finish a reply that honors him

4.- "Of course we can still be biased. Prehistory is so complex that, again and again, OUR PREDICTIONS HAVE BEEN WRONG".

GASKA
09-07-2018, 02:47 PM
This is in the first paragraph of the paper.

"The dissection of S116 in more than 1500 individuals from Atlantic Europe and the Iberian Peninsula has provided important clues about the controversial evolutionary history of M269. First, the results do not point to an origin of M269 in the Franco–Cantabrian refuge, owing to the lack of sublineage diversity within M269, which supports the new theories proposing its origin in Eastern Europe."

Keep reading, I've never talk about M269, but about P312/S116.

Ruderico
09-07-2018, 02:52 PM
This is in the first paragraph of the paper.

"The dissection of S116 in more than 1500 individuals from Atlantic Europe and the Iberian Peninsula has provided important clues about the controversial evolutionary history of M269. First, the results do not point to an origin of M269 in the Franco–Cantabrian refuge, owing to the lack of sublineage diversity within M269, which supports the new theories proposing its origin in Eastern Europe."



It has to do with dating, that paper states:


The theories that argue for an origin in the East and during the Neolithic period assume a rapid expansion of M269 throughout Europe, replacing most of the previously settled haplogroups, which would be compatible with a main scenario of demic diffusion.

The scenario proposed here would be most compatible with an arrival of M269 from the East occurring in Palaeolithic times.


Also this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4755366_ejhg2015114f1.jpg)

GASKA
09-07-2018, 03:00 PM
Valverde et al- "Surprisingly, the inclusion of new populations from the Atlantic coast and Iberia in this study, has identified a frequency distribution of haplogroup S116 tht differs from the previously proposed distribution. Myres et al, proposed a frequency peak in the Upper Danube Basin and Paris, with declining frequency tocontrastwards Italy, Iberia, southern France and British isles. By contrast, these new data show maximum frecuencies in northern Iberia, the western coast of France and the British isles "-

So- Franco-Cantabrian region

Ethereal
09-07-2018, 03:36 PM
Iberian BB theory will prevail eventually, just give it time. Until I see any evidence of Yamnaya being anything other than pred. Z2103, I can't imagine it hosting L51.

alan
09-07-2018, 04:21 PM
Iberian BB theory will prevail eventually, just give it time. Until I see any evidence of Yamnaya being anything other than pred. Z2103, I can't imagine it hosting L51.

Why? L51 is the closest branch to Z2103 in the entire y tree of mankind. They share an an an ancestor in the 4000s BC. The normal logical deduction. leads to the conclusion that they were present in the same or neighbouring cultures. The idea they arose at opposite ends of Europe in totally different cultures and ways of life is about as counterintuitive as it gets.

ADW_1981
09-07-2018, 04:36 PM
Iberian BB theory will prevail eventually, just give it time. Until I see any evidence of Yamnaya being anything other than pred. Z2103, I can't imagine it hosting L51.

The original Iberian BB would be of the maritime type. Unlikely that L51+ were the males in these groups, and certainly no evidence exists to support it.

alan
09-07-2018, 04:42 PM
It has to do with dating, that paper states:




Also this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4755366_ejhg2015114f1.jpg)

That conclusion is lunacy. P312 and z2103 share a common P312 ancestor in the 4000sBC.

Ruderico
09-07-2018, 04:46 PM
That conclusion is lunacy. P312 and z2103 share a common P312 ancestor in the 4000sBC.

Yeah, well, I don't give the study much credibility either but that's what GASKA was talking about

GASKA
09-07-2018, 04:54 PM
Why? L51 is the closest branch to Z2103 in the entire y tree of mankind. They share an an an ancestor in the 4000s BC. The normal logical deduction. leads to the conclusion that they were present in the same or neighbouring cultures. The idea they arose at opposite ends of Europe in totally different cultures and ways of life is about as counterintuitive as it gets.

I guess you think the same about Df27 and his brothers U152 and L21

GASKA
09-07-2018, 05:01 PM
That conclusion is lunacy. P312 and z2103 share a common P312 ancestor in the 4000sBC.

Who says that P312 and Z2103 share a common P312 ancestor in the 4.000 BC? They say that U106 and S116 have the same ancestor-R1b-L11. They don't mention Z2013.

Ruderico
09-07-2018, 05:12 PM
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.png

GASKA
09-07-2018, 05:16 PM
Yeah, well, I don't give the study much credibility either but that's what GASKA was talking about,

Why don't you give it credibility ? Do you know any similar study in Portugal or other parts of Europe ?. They are scientists from Lascaray Research Center, University of the Basque Country, Genomique fonctionnelle et Biotechnologies (Brest, France) National Neuroscience Centre (Dublin, Ireland, University of Cantabria, University Miguel Hernández (Elche, Alicante), Forensic Genetics Department, National Institute of legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences (PORTO, Portugal), University of Copenhagen (Danmark). So prestigious European scientists, they are not amateur.

alan
09-07-2018, 05:21 PM
Who says that P312 and Z2103 share a common P312 ancestor in the 4.000 BC? They say that U106 and S116 have the same ancestor-R1b-L11. They don't mention Z2013.

But the point is the dominant yamnaya y line and the dominant beaker line are closest
cousin lines with a common L23 ancestor in the 4000sBC.

Joe B
09-07-2018, 05:23 PM
Who says that P312 and Z2103 share a common P312 ancestor in the 4.000 BC? They say that U106 and S116 have the same ancestor-R1b-L11. They don't mention Z2013.The common ancestor is R1b-L23.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L23/
R1b-L11 is downstream to L51 so no need to mention Z2103. Alan beat me to it.

GASKA
09-07-2018, 05:25 PM
The original Iberian BB would be of the maritime type. Unlikely that L51+ were the males in these groups, and certainly no evidence exists to support it.

No one has related the maritime type with L51, in fact, the main haplogroup related with this style is I2a (2.800-2.500 BC). The truth is that L51 has not been yet found in Yamnaya or anywhere else in Eastern Europe.

Mr. Snow
09-07-2018, 05:29 PM
But the point is the dominant yamnaya y line and the dominant beaker line are closest
cousin lines with a common L23 ancestor in the 4000sBC.

Hajji Firuz has R1b-Z2103 ca. 5650 BC so your estimates are way off.

Ruderico
09-07-2018, 05:32 PM
,

Why don't you give it credibility ? Do you know any similar study in Portugal or other parts of Europe ?. They are scientists from Lascaray Research Center, University of the Basque Country, Genomique fonctionnelle et Biotechnologies (Brest, France) National Neuroscience Centre (Dublin, Ireland, University of Cantabria, University Miguel Hernández (Elche, Alicante), Forensic Genetics Department, National Institute of legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences (PORTO, Portugal), University of Copenhagen (Danmark). So prestigious European scientists, they are not amateur.

Simply because its conclusions go against all known evidence, such as saying M269 arrived from the East in the Palaeolothic when its TMRCA is thought to be much younger than that. It feels like a fringe theory, regardless of where the authors are from. But I'm not a geneticist.
I posted the R1b phylogenetic tree above

PS: Don't bother writing Porto in CAPS, I'm not an ethnonationalist and I don't really give a toss if anyone in my country was involved in this or any other study

R.Rocca
09-07-2018, 05:34 PM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755366/

It's 2018. I started wiping my rear with papers that claim haplogroup origin from modern day frequency and variance about six years ago. Fortunately all of them have been proven wrong by ancient DNA.

jdean
09-07-2018, 05:41 PM
Hajji Firuz has R1b-Z2103 ca. 5650 BC so your estimates are way off.

whilst Yfull has the common ancestor at 6100 ybp, and in about 2 to 3 minutes we could probably get another half dozen estimates : ))

R.Rocca
09-07-2018, 05:49 PM
Hajji Firuz has R1b-Z2103 ca. 5650 BC so your estimates are way off.

In communication with the authors, the radiocarbon dating has failed twice on that sample. Therefore, that date is extremely unlikely to be correct.

GASKA
09-07-2018, 05:55 PM
Simply because its conclusions go against all known evidence, such as saying M269 arrived from the East in the Palaeolothic when its TMRCA is thought to be much younger than that. It feels like a fringe theory, regardless of where the authors are from. But I'm not a geneticist.
I posted the R1b phylogenetic tree above

PS: Don't bother writing Porto in CAPS, I'm not an ethnonationalist and I don't really give a toss if anyone in my country was involved in this or any other study

They also investigate the young STR based time to the most recent common ancestor estimates proposed so far for R-M269 related lineages, and find evidence for an appreciable effect of microsatellite choice on age estimates. As a consequence, the existing data and tools are insufficient to make credible estimates for the age of this haplogroup, and conclusions about the timing of its origin and dispersal should be viewed with a large degree of caution. I think few geneticits have an exact idea of exactly when M269 originated.

Nobody had to be an ethno.nationalist to know that Porto has a good University.

Isidro
09-07-2018, 05:57 PM
Simply because its conclusions go against all known evidence, such as saying M269 arrived from the East in the Palaeolothic when its TMRCA is thought to be much younger than that. It feels like a fringe theory, regardless of where the authors are from. But I'm not a geneticist.


All known evidence is a big order...
I don't see a problem people speculating and building houses of cards, as long as they don't serve "cat for rabbit" and shove it down your throat.

Great genetics are coming our way, a word of caution they are not historians or archaeologists will see if their theories withstand the years before we upgrade them to the throne of Zeus.

GASKA
09-07-2018, 06:06 PM
It's 2018. I started wiping my rear with papers that claim haplogroup origin from modern day frequency and variance about six years ago. Fortunately all of them have been proven wrong by ancient DNA.

Published two years ago Richard. The frequency and variability is important to know the origin of a haplogroup. I don't know other paper in Europe or America that has contradicted these conclusions. It sems that they are not very misguided because the ancient DNA speaks of Saxony or Alsace as the origin of P312, never the steppes.

Mr. Snow
09-07-2018, 06:06 PM
In communication with the authors, the radiocarbon dating has failed twice on that sample. Therefore, that date is extremely unlikely to be correct.

All the Hajji Firuz samples are pretty similar autosomally a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmer
25723
If the carbon dating failed you have no argument to question the uncontested archeological dating the sample has been given.

jdean
09-07-2018, 07:35 PM
I seem to remember Jean Manco suggesting the Basques may have originated outside of Iberia, has there been any research that backs this idea up or refutes it ?

If they weren't in Iberia when the Steppe population turn over happened in the early Bronze Age that could help explain the retention of the language.

Pylsteen
09-07-2018, 08:06 PM
I seem to remember Jean Manco suggesting the Basques may have originated outside of Iberia, has there been any research that backs this idea up or refutes it ?


There seems to be a small Vasconic substrate among several Occitan and Spanish dialects, suggesting that several parts of Southern France and Spain (outside of Basque country and Aquitaine) were Vasconic-speaking before Gauls and Romans spread. Here is the paper (https://www.academia.edu/30676662/Confirmation_of_the_Basque_ancient_extension_throu gh_study_of_Western_European_romance_dialects_180j lr2016_14_1_21_27).

Basque itself is sometimes linked to North-Caucasian (but not to Kartvelian). One example is this paper (https://www.academia.edu/35759784/The_Anthropological_Context_of_Euskaro-Caucasian) that argues that both North Caucasian and Basque originated among Anatolian farmers. Then the question would be: did it arrive through the Central European farmer route or through the Meditteranean Cardium Pottery (more likely IMO). Many scenarios seem possible.

Although interesting, both ideas do not say much about where (pre-proto-)Basque was spoken around 2500 BC.

Ruderico
09-07-2018, 09:48 PM
Not many people consider that Basque-Caucasian language connection to be real, though

Pylsteen
09-07-2018, 10:00 PM
Not many people consider that Basque-Caucasian language connection to be real, though

True. It's difficult to ascertain because of the large time depth involved.
Also without that hypothesis it I would find a spread of Basque with Cardium Pottery not far-fetched.

Generalissimo
09-07-2018, 10:12 PM
All the Hajji Firuz samples are pretty similar autosomally a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmer.

False.

Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 (R1b-Z2103) obviously has steppe admixture, which can be seen in formal stats and PCA.

Mbuti EHG Hajji_Firuz_ChL Hajji_Firuz_ChL_I2327 0.0151 3.737

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VCL6VgH2y_U/WvAF_JZFKSI/AAAAAAAAGtY/ipS7_vIrFCwrvjvwkWsucSSTUBE9XiaqACLcBGAs/s1600/Hajji_Firuz_I2327_vs_ChL.png

Likely Yamnaya incursion(s) into Northwestern Iran (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/likely-yamnaya-incursions-into.html)

Mr. Snow
09-07-2018, 10:38 PM
False.

Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 (R1b-Z2103) obviously has steppe admixture, which can be seen in formal stats and PCA.

Mbuti EHG Hajji_Firuz_ChL Hajji_Firuz_ChL_I2327 0.0151 3.737

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VCL6VgH2y_U/WvAF_JZFKSI/AAAAAAAAGtY/ipS7_vIrFCwrvjvwkWsucSSTUBE9XiaqACLcBGAs/s1600/Hajji_Firuz_I2327_vs_ChL.png

Likely Yamnaya incursion(s) into Northwestern Iran (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/likely-yamnaya-incursions-into.html)

CHG can be modeled as partially EHG obviously as both were neighbors for thousands of years, saying Hajji Firuz has EHG admixture is nothing but a play of words. You can call "Steppe" anything you want but people generally refer to Steppe as the 50-50 mixture of south Caucasus R1b-Z2103 people with local EHG people.

Generalissimo
09-07-2018, 10:44 PM
CHG can be modeled as partially EHG obviously as both were neighbors for thousands of years, saying Hajji Firuz has EHG admixture is nothing but a play of words. You can call "Steppe" anything you want but people generally refer to Steppe as the 50-50 mixture of south Caucasus R1b-Z2103 people with local EHG people.

Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 has excess EHG admixture, because he has ancestry from the steppe, and that's why he belongs to R1b-Z2103.

There were migrations from the steppe to Iran. Duh.

No one who will take you seriously when you claim that R1b-Z2103 is from Iran after the Caucasus/Maykop paper.

rms2
09-07-2018, 11:04 PM
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/coming-focus

Pay attention in this interview to David Reich.

1.- "This extraordinary archaelogical culture, the Bell Beaker complex, that it's first documented in Western Europe about 4.700 years ago, and spread into central and Northern Europe by 4.500 years ago"- It's evident that he thinks the same as me, that is, an Iberian origin of the BB culture. Sangmeister (who has inspired this thread) also thought so.

Read Reich's book. He says Beaker spread from Iberia as a set of ideas and then spread back west with real people who were of steppe origin.

Olalde et al found no real Iberian contribution to Kurgan Bell Beaker.

How can you have possibly read Olalde et al with anything remotely like understanding and post the 2005 stuff that you post?




2.- "We found that these populations were genetically heterogeneus. We found sites in Hungary and France where people with different ancestries, b Basically multiracial groups of people are buried side by side with beaker pots by their heads". I agree.

And this is the answer that has generated the controversy.

Have you actually read Olalde et al?

There were a handful of non-R1b-M269 Kurgan Bell Beaker results that had either no steppe dna or very low steppe dna. All the R1b-M269 samples had steppe dna.

Heterogeneous in a very small way (by far most of the Kurgan Bell Beaker results were R1b-M269), but all the folks with steppe-derived y-dna (R1b-M269) had steppe dna. Obviously, Kurgan Bell Beaker was open to recruitment from the local Neolithic farmers, which explains those few non-R1b, low or no steppe dna folks.



3.- "We found that the Beaker population in Iberia was genetically very different from the Beaker population in Central Europe"- GROSSLY MISTAKE- In the 5 BB Iberian burials studied approximately half of the men are R1b-P312, exactly the same haplogroup as in the rest of Europe. The only difference is the steppe ancestry percentage.

Geez. Use your head. He was talking about the earliest Iberian Bell Beaker, which had no steppe dna and no R1b-M269. After the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker from the east, there was R1b-P312 and steppe dna in Iberia.

Before and after.

Not hard to understand.



"A very similar culture was shared by 2 biologically distinct groups" I agree with Reich, only 1 BB culture.

Nah. Two different cultures and two biologically distinct groups.

Do you need a refresher course in the differences?



"The Iberian BB samples were genetically indistinguisable from the NON-BB iberians they lived among"- How can he say that? They belong to different Y haplogroups.

Again: use your head. Reich was talking about the earliest Iberian Bell Beaker people. They were Iberian Neolithic farmers.

The Kurgan Bell Beaker people, mostly males, who arrived beginning ABOUT 2500 BC, were R1b-P312 and had steppe dna. They were a people new to Iberia, with a new version of the Bell Beaker culture.

Surely you can read.



An to finish a reply that honors him

4.- "Of course we can still be biased. Prehistory is so complex that, again and again, OUR PREDICTIONS HAVE BEEN WRONG".

You do understand what a prediction is, don't you?

Reich wasn't predicting anything when he talked about the Iberian results in his book, and that abstract from the new Olalde et al paper wasn't making predictions either.

They were talking about known lab-tested results.

The stuff you're posting is just absolutely incredible.

Mr. Snow
09-08-2018, 12:26 AM
Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 has excess EHG admixture, because he has ancestry from the steppe
You can see there is variance in the amounts of CHG
25729
You're taking the samples with the least amount of CHG and pretending I2327 has "excess EHG" in relation to them, but ADMIXTURE is clear the components they actually have are CHG and Anatolian farmer no EHG.




No one who will take you seriously when you claim that R1b-Z2103 is from Iran after the Caucasus/Maykop paper.

Dunno, man

"Ancient DNA available from this time in Anatolia shows no evidence of steppe ancestry similar to that in the Yamnaya. This suggests to me that the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians."

Looks like the high IQ people are taking it seriously. I would also point out that the autosomal profile of Anatolia was completely unchanged from the Chalcolithic ca. 4000BC all the way to the Iron Age, meaning ca. 4000BC is when they were IEzid, which isn't surprising considering it's the oldest IE branch.

rms2
09-08-2018, 12:33 AM
It's completely goofy to argue that IE originated south of the Caucasus.

We know from historical linguistics that IE arose on the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. Since IE is a language family, its origin is a linguistic issue, not a genetic issue.

Since the linguistic question is settled, and the homeland is established, one has to look at who was present on the Pontic-Caspian steppe at the right time.

All the ethno-nationalist bs from banned former members under new monikers is irrelevant.

jdean
09-08-2018, 12:41 AM
All the ethno-nationalist bs from banned former members under new monikers is irrelevant.

Reasonably sure you're right about some of these posters.

Generalissimo
09-08-2018, 12:47 AM
You can see there is variance in the amounts of CHG.
You're taking the samples with the least amount of CHG and pretending I2327 has "excess EHG" in relation to them, but ADMIXTURE is clear the components they actually have are CHG and Anatolian farmer no EHG.

ADMIXTURE is not a formal mixture test, so it can't be used to argue that this sample doesn't have steppe ancestry.

Formal stats show excess EHG ancestry not excess CHG ancestry in this sample.

Mbuti CHG Hajji_Firuz_ChL Hajji_Firuz_ChL_I2327 0.002 0.456

So you have to take the data and prove with formal stats that I'm wrong, or get in touch with the authors and get them to explain why I'm wrong.


Looks like the high IQ people are taking it seriously.

You're just making things up. No one is arguing that R1b-Z2103 is from Iran except you.

rms2
09-08-2018, 12:56 AM
Man, it just blows me away that Reich can write what he did in his book, speaking pretty plainly, and Olalde can post the kind of abstract for his new paper that he did, and in response we still get the same old, cobwebbed arguments we got back on the old dna forums, before ancient dna was much more than a dream.

I guess the old vampires won't really die until wooden stakes are actually driven through their hearts, their heads are cut off, their mouths stuffed with garlic, and their remains sprinkled with Holy Water. (That's a metaphor, btw. I have to explain that for people who evidently can't even understand what Reich and Olalde wrote.)

Kopfjäger
09-08-2018, 01:23 AM
Man, it just blows me away that Reich can write what he did in his book, speaking pretty plainly, and Olalde can post the kind of abstract for his new paper that he did, and in response we still get the same old, cobwebbed arguments we got back on the old dna forums, before ancient dna was much more than a dream.

I guess the old vampires won't really die until wooden stakes are actually driven through their hearts, their heads are cut off, their mouths stuffed with garlic, and their remains sprinkled with Holy Water. (That's a metaphor, btw. I have to explain that for people who evidently can't even understand what Reich and Olalde wrote.)

Rich,

These guys will always say, "Well, just wait for the next paper!", or "The results will eventually go our way!". The old adage that every grave can be dug up and they still won't be convinced holds here.

rms2
09-08-2018, 01:47 AM
Perhaps more important to this thread will be the following paper:



Genetic transition in the Swiss Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age
A. Furtwängler et al

Major genetic turnovers in European populations marked the beginning as well as final stages of the Neolithic period as shown
by recent studies. The transition from hunter-gatherers to agriculturalists and farmers in the 6th millennium BCE coincided
with a human migration from the Near East. A second migration into Central Europe occurred originating from the Pontic
steppe in the 3rd millennium BCE and was linked to the spread of the Corded Ware Culture which ranged as far southwest as
modern day Western Switzerland. These genetic processes are well studied, for example for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region in
Eastern Germany, however, little is known from the regions that connect Central and Southern Europe.
In this study, we investigate genome-wide data from 97 individuals from the Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace
Region in France that span the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (5500 to 4000 BP). Our results show a similar
genetic process as reported for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all
the way into the Swiss Plateau. However, our evidence suggests that the onset of that transition may have started even earlier
in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale region.

The existence of core families within multiple burials, the determination and quantification of different ancestry components
and the evaluation of a migration route taken by the ancestors of the Late Neolithic populations in this region were analysed.
Our data represent the first comprehensive genome wide dataset from Neolithic individuals from the Swiss Plateau and
provide the first insights into the genetic history of this region.



All three of these regions studied (Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace) had Corded Ware to Bell Beaker transitions. They mention the earlier arrival of steppe migrants to Switzerland than the Middle-Elbe-Saale region. Do they mean Corded Ware people, or early Steppe Bell Beaker people? Should be interesting.

I know I shouldn't open my mouth and jinx it, but personally I'm hoping for at least one R1b-L21 from that one and/or the Lech Valley paper. After all, the Amesbury Archer is supposed to have been born and raised in that region. Maybe they can bag some pre-British Kurgan Bell Beaker L21.

I hope so.

peternorth
09-08-2018, 06:58 AM
Man, it just blows me away that Reich can write what he did in his book, speaking pretty plainly, and Olalde can post the kind of abstract for his new paper that he did, and in response we still get the same old, cobwebbed arguments we got back on the old dna forums, before ancient dna was much more than a dream.

I guess the old vampires won't really die until wooden stakes are actually driven through their hearts, their heads are cut off, their mouths stuffed with garlic, and their remains sprinkled with Holy Water. (That's a metaphor, btw. I have to explain that for people who evidently can't even understand what Reich and Olalde wrote.)



Also, unfortunately, this type of psychopathy - for that's the right terminology - is deeply disturbing and makes one deeply question other human beings.

One is forcefully reminded of legal systems throughout the world, which rely on cross examination of suspects and the element of convincing judges, juries etc of the suspect's guilt, never mind the endless appeals etc, and the presumption of innocence, and thus the suspect's favored status in the legal process.

The point is - as can be see in this thread - certain individuals can lie and lie and lie. And lie damned hard and persistently, almost to the point of believing their own lies. Unfortunately, their ruthlessness and sheer bad character often convinces the naive and gullible.

And don't get me started with politicians.

GASKA
09-08-2018, 09:12 AM
There seems to be a small Vasconic substrate among several Occitan and Spanish dialects, suggesting that several parts of Southern France and Spain (outside of Basque country and Aquitaine) were Vasconic-speaking before Gauls and Romans spread. Here is the paper (https://www.academia.edu/30676662/Confirmation_of_the_Basque_ancient_extension_throu gh_study_of_Western_European_romance_dialects_180j lr2016_14_1_21_27).

Basque itself is sometimes linked to North-Caucasian (but not to Kartvelian). One example is this paper (https://www.academia.edu/35759784/The_Anthropological_Context_of_Euskaro-Caucasian) that argues that both North Caucasian and Basque originated among Anatolian farmers. Then the question would be: did it arrive through the Central European farmer route or through the Meditteranean Cardium Pottery (more likely IMO). Many scenarios seem possible.

Although interesting, both ideas do not say much about where (pre-proto-)Basque was spoken around 2500 BC.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917

Basques and sardinians don't have autosomal component CHG (basically EEG and WHG), neither their genetics nor their language comes from the Caucasus I guess the way to enter Iberia was the Central European farmer route.

Regarding the extension of the language, it was obviusly spoken in Navarra, Aquitania and Iacetania (alto Aragón), but probably not in the current Spanish Basque territory (at least at the time of the Roman conquest) where Caristios, Várdulos and Autrigones (celtic people) lived.

Basque language was not very widespread, what happens is that it was very similar to the Iberian language.

For example- New City-Nueva Ciudad (Spanish)- Iri-berri (Basque)- Ili-Beris (old name of Granada, Iberian city).

Numerals-

Basque- Bat (1)-Bi (2)-Hiru(3)-lau (4)-Bost (5)-Sei (6)-Zazpi (7)-Zortzi (8)- Bederatzi (9) Hamar (10)-Hogei (20)
Iberian- Ban (1)-Bi (2)-Irur (3).Laur (4)-Borste (5)-Sei (6)-Sisbi (7)-Sorse (8)-Abar (10)-Orkei (20).

And obviously is not an Indoeuropean language

I have nine horses- Habeo Novem Equorum (latin)- Bederatzi zaldi ditu.

We would have to ask linguistic experts where they think the Protobasque was spoken.

Pylsteen
09-08-2018, 09:53 AM
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917

Basques and sardinians don't have autosomal component CHG (basically EEG and WHG), neither their genetics nor their language comes from the Caucasus I guess the way to enter Iberia was the Central European farmer route.

Regarding the extension of the language, it was obviusly spoken in Navarra, Aquitania and Iacetania (alto Aragón), but probably not in the current Spanish Basque territory (at least at the time of the Roman conquest) where Caristios, Várdulos and Autrigones (celtic people) lived.



Under the "Caucasian hypothesis" put forward by the paper, both North Caucasian and Basque would have originated in Anatolia with Anatolian farmers, so that would them make connected to EEF. It is difficult to say whether there is any truth in this hypothesis or not; the time depth is very large.

Still, without it one may also argue for an origin of Basque among EEF.

From this paper (https://www.academia.edu/30676662/Confirmation_of_the_Basque_ancient_extension_throu gh_study_of_Western_European_romance_dialects_180j lr2016_14_1_21_27) you can see where some Basque-related words are present in current Romance dialects; this map is interesting:

25732

GASKA
09-08-2018, 11:18 AM
1-ALL the north of Spain, the Mediterranean coast, Aragón, West Andalucia, and part of Castilla la Mancha, spoke NON Indo-european languages when the Roman arrives to Hispania (218 BC), 2.000 years after the supposed arrival of the Indo-europeans.

2.- This territory was inhabited by Basque and Iberian peoples. Vascones, Iacetanos, Ilergetes, Ilercavones, Layetanos, Ausetanos, Bergistanos, Edetanos, Sedetanos, Contestanos, Oretanos, Bastetanos, Turdetanos, etc..... The Basques are not an exception, many other iberian peoples (and from the rest of Europe) resisted Indo-Europeanization.

3.- These people are the ones with the highest proportion of R1b-M269 in the world.

4.- Iberian Neolithic farmers and modern Basques DON'T HAVE Caucasus hunter gatherer ancestry, as shown by the link I sent before.

5.- Yamnaya culture (3.300-2.600 BC), is basicallly 50% EHG and 50% CHG, and mostly R1b Z2013.

6.- BB culture has Iberian origin (Cardoso 2.014).

France-Lemercier- 2.500-2.400 BC- "This beaker presence, is characterised by pottery of maritime style (extreme rarity of AOO and AOC variants), metal objects are few (awls Palmela points and ornaments", "the burial tradition is mainly collective burial in megalithic structures or in local graves or cavities, but a few individual burials are also known". This first stage corresponds to the arrival into the area of the first beaker elements. Comparisons lead us quite systematically to the Iberian peninsula and Portugal" "Second stage, the two regional groups still show an iberian affinity, with the decorated pottery of the Rodhano-Provençal group clearly exhibiting resemblances with the Spanish Ciempozuelos group".

Switzerland- Harrison- "The early BB artifacts from Sion indicate connections to the south"

Then, the Basques are 90% R1b-M269, speak a NON indoeuropean language, don't have in their autosomical DNA the main component of the Yamnaya culture (CHG), all the objetcs of the BB package existed in Iberia before the arrival of the indoeuropeans, the metallurgy is autochthonous, in Central and Western Europe, the burials are different from those practised by the horsemen of the steppes, there are archaelogical and genetic evidence of population movements between Iberia and the rest of Western Europe (including Germany), there are studies that show that P312 originated in the Franco-Cantabrian region due to its variability and frequency, the Lusitanian horses (mit Hap-C), only existed in Iberia, are documented from the Neolithic and were safely tamed there, the oldest sample of R1b-P312 is in Alsace (aprox 2.400 BC), L51/P312 has never found in Yamnaya or in any of the cultures related to it, and P297 has not been found in Eastern Europe, but in the Baltic countries.

Everything seems clear right? However the conclusion seems to be the following.

Since there is R1b-Z2013 in Yamnaya, there is also L51 and therefore its descendant P312 in this culture ?????- Speculation
At some point between 3.000-2.600 BC, P312 leaves Yamnaya (or some related culture) and arrives in Central Europe. ????- Speculation
The brave horsemen of the steppes conquer the Old Europe, thanks to the horses and their cultural and technological superiority. ????- Speculation.
They bring with them a different culture from the Bb culture that existed in Western Europe 300 years before. ???? Speculation.

Consequences-The western male population is subtly replaced by the descendants of the men of the steppes.

How do we know all this?- Because the ancient DNA tell us that those men and women related to the Western and Central BB culture have a thing called STEPPE ANCESTRY.

And in front of this deduction, what can we say? Please, someone can explain to me, what is and how that wonderful "steppe ancestry" has come to us, if we lack its main component (CHG)? If the explanation is convincing I will accept it without problems.

GASKA
09-08-2018, 11:32 AM
Under the "Caucasian hypothesis" put forward by the paper, both North Caucasian and Basque would have originated in Anatolia with Anatolian farmers, so that would them make connected to EEF. It is difficult to say whether there is any truth in this hypothesis or not; the time depth is very large.

Still, without it one may also argue for an origin of Basque among EEF.

From this paper (https://www.academia.edu/30676662/Confirmation_of_the_Basque_ancient_extension_throu gh_study_of_Western_European_romance_dialects_180j lr2016_14_1_21_27) you can see where some Basque-related words are present in current Romance dialects; this map is interesting:

25732

It could be, we only know that the language is neolithic, because there are no old words for metals. I don't know if in the Neolithic, the Anatolians kenw the metals. In any case the genetics is wonderful because it has shown that the Basques are very similar to the rest of Spaniards and Europeans,

jdean
09-08-2018, 12:27 PM
It could be, we only know that the language is neolithic, because there are no old words for metals. I don't know if in the Neolithic, the Anatolians kenw the metals. In any case the genetics is wonderful because it has shown that the Basques are very similar to the rest of Spaniards and Europeans,

Jean Manco repeatedly referred to Basque as a metal age language but I gather that's contentious, however I thought silver was supposed to have come from Basque ?

Found this very interesting article about Basque metal words

Basque Metal Names by Larry Trask (http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/Larry/metal.names.php)

rms2
09-08-2018, 12:59 PM
. . .
2.- This territory was inhabited by Basque and Iberian peoples . . .

3.- These people are the ones with the highest proportion of R1b-M269 in the world.

The frequency of R1b-M269 in Ireland is as high.

Anyway, look at those very early Iberian Bell Beaker results from El Sotillo in the Basque Country from Lipson et al (2017):

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

Add to that the fact that Olalde et al, in The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe (2018), found no R1b-M269 in Iberia before the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people and steppe autosomal dna. Evidently the addition of all those extra samples that will appear in the new paper on ancient Iberia hasn't changed that.

So, modern Basques have a lot of R1b-M269, but apparently that wasn't always the case. Basques also currently have steppe autosomal dna, of which CHG is a component.

How did that happen?

As I and others have explained before, the early Basques were, like other Old Europeans, earth mother goddess worshipers with matrilocal marriage practices, in which the groom went to live with the bride's family. Under that circumstance, a foreign groom of IE origin would live among people who were speaking Euskara and take up the language himself. His children would grow up speaking Euskara. Meanwhile, his y-dna would be passed down to his sons, who would pass it down to their sons, etc. Eventually genetic drift would lead to that foreign y-dna, in this case R1b-M269 (overwhelmingly P312>DF27), becoming predominant.

That this is precisely what happened is evident in the fact that modern Basques are high in steppe-derived y chromosomes and yet relatively low in steppe autosomal dna. Pretty obviously, both were introduced by males who were alien to the original Basque people. The y chromosomes of those aliens were passed down intact and became dominant through genetic drift, while their steppe autosomal dna dwindled through breeding with people who, to begin with, had no steppe autosomal dna of their own.




4.- Iberian Neolithic farmers and modern Basques DON'T HAVE Caucasus hunter gatherer ancestry, as shown by the link I sent before.

Iberian Neolithic farmers didn't, but modern Basques do have CHG.



5.- Yamnaya culture (3.300-2.600 BC), is basicallly 50% EHG and 50% CHG, and mostly R1b Z2013.

Z2103 is a brother clade under L23 to L51. According to YFull's current estimate, they're both the same age (born c. 4150-2750 BC). It isn't likely they arose very far from one another and certainly not at opposite ends of the European continent.

L51 has been found in plenty in a steppe-derived culture, Kurgan Bell Beaker, that a number of scholars believe was an offshoot of Yamnaya. Those scholars include Marija Gimbutas and Harrison and Heyd.

It has also been found in Proto-Nagyrev, which represents the transition phase between late Vucedol and Nagyrev, another steppe-derived culture.

As I have said before, both Reich and Olalde refer to R1b-P312 as being of steppe origin. Personally, I don't think they would do that unless they knew that was the case.



6.- BB culture has Iberian origin (Cardoso 2.014).

Early Iberian BB culture was apparently of Iberian origin. Pretty obviously there was a second type of BB culture that was NOT of Iberian origin. Its people weren't of Iberian origin, and most of their cultural practices weren't of Iberian origin either.

This is from page 390 of Marija Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess:



The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions.


Gimbutas was right about the fact that Kurgan Bell Beaker "certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture". We know that now, thanks to Olalde et al.



France-Lemercier- 2.500-2.400 BC- "This beaker presence, is characterised by pottery of maritime style (extreme rarity of AOO and AOC variants), metal objects are few (awls Palmela points and ornaments", "the burial tradition is mainly collective burial in megalithic structures or in local graves or cavities, but a few individual burials are also known". This first stage corresponds to the arrival into the area of the first beaker elements. Comparisons lead us quite systematically to the Iberian peninsula and Portugal" "Second stage, the two regional groups still show an iberian affinity, with the decorated pottery of the Rodhano-Provençal group clearly exhibiting resemblances with the Spanish Ciempozuelos group".

No one disputes that there was an early type of Iberian BB that had no R1b-M269 and no steppe dna. Its people were physically different from Kurgan Bell Beaker people, and they buried their dead in Neolithic collective tombs, like the Neolithic farmers they were.



Switzerland- Harrison- "The early BB artifacts from Sion indicate connections to the south"

About 2425 BC, newcomers from the East arrived at Sion and at nearby Aosta in northern Italy, threw down the old stelae and replaced the earlier inhabitants. They used the broken stelae to build cists for their single graves and small family unit graves, which differed from the collective tombs of the earlier inhabitants.

The following is from page 172 of Harrison and Heyd's The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland):



In Sion, the early Beaker ideology from the west was violently challenged, and replaced by an antagonistic version of the same beliefs that came from the east, ultimately from the Carpathian basin and the middle Danube. The result was the obliteration of the specifically western Beaker ideology, and the stelae, which materialized it. No more were erected, and the solar axis of the site was less respected. If the destruction of the stelae is treated as an historical incident, when one social group of Beaker users overthrows its rival, it should be possible to read the rest of the site’s history with a similar logic.


Ibid, page 192:



Within two generations, another significant change takes place at both sites. This is the destruction horizon around 2425 BC, at the end of the early Beaker period, when stelae on both sites were smashed and their fragments used as building material in new monuments (see Fig. 10). This marks a fundamental change in the prevailing ideology on each site. Such a change is clearly abrupt, violent and conducted quickly, so that every image was broken and thrown down. Not one remains intact at Sion, where the destruction was more complete than at Aosta. The distinctive accompanying material includes Bell Beakers that have links to the East Group. It signals an ideological switch in allegiance, transferred from the old Rhine-Rhône axis, to the new focus on the Danube. At Sion the destruction horizon is fixed firmly to the construction of the first megalithic cists, which are built on top of ‘couche 5C2’; at the same time the monument M VI is emptied, and the skulls and bones were removed and placed on its east side. The choice of the east side probably reflects the custom of burial in the Bell Beaker’s East Group where the heads always point to the rising sun in the east. The new monuments are built on the original site axis and generally respect its orientation. These cists, built with many stelae fragments, contain middle phase Bell Beaker material. Our interpretation of these events is that the cists represent burial places restricted to one family, and they mark the definitive change from collective burials in the Final Neolithic.

We suggest that this destruction horizon is the intellectually transforming moment at both Sion and Aosta. The stable isotope studies describe how we can recognize individual immigrants coming to live at Sion from areas a long way to the east (Chiaradia et al. 2003). This moment is also reflected in the fundamental change of dental and cranial morphology of the Sion skeletons at the transition of the Final Neolithic to the Bell Beaker period (Desideri/Eades 2004), or, as we think, at the transition of the early to the middle Bell Beaker phase. This human mobility is convincing evidence that agrees with the distribution of artifact types, and the personal nature of the ornaments and weapons. In these burials we look upon the face of prehistoric Beaker migrants, who arrived as individuals, and not as a migratory population. It shows the importance of the individual person in promoting a cultural change. The conflict of ideas could therefore be seen as a doctrinal conflict within the Bell Beaker ideology. This fits the two distinct Beaker traditions that we identify, coming respectively from the southwest and the east. The Bell Beaker middle phase A2 is the climax of the development of the site. The cists reflect the new family based structures, that are dominant in the community and which follow the East Group customs (Heyd 2007).


Olalde et al secured the genomes of three sets of remains from Dolmen MXI at Sion, which was built in part of broken stelae from the destruction horizon (in other words, after the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker people):

I5755/BB_01_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: K2b1a

I5757/BB_18_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-L151 mtDNA: H3af

I5759/BB_23_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE mtDNA: U2e1c1

Similar phenomena occurred on the Mediterranean coast of France. There was an early phase of Iberian BB influence, which was followed by a period in which fortified hilltop sites and kurgan-type single graves appear.



Then, the Basques are 90% R1b-M269, speak a NON indoeuropean language, don't have in their autosomical DNA the main component of the Yamnaya culture (CHG), all the objetcs of the BB package existed in Iberia before the arrival of the indoeuropeans, the metallurgy is autochthonous, in Central and Western Europe, the burials are different from those practised by the horsemen of the steppes, there are archaelogical and genetic evidence of population movements between Iberia and the rest of Western Europe (including Germany), there are studies that show that P312 originated in the Franco-Cantabrian region due to its variability and frequency, the Lusitanian horses (mit Hap-C), only existed in Iberia, are documented from the Neolithic and were safely tamed there, the oldest sample of R1b-P312 is in Alsace (aprox 2.400 BC), L51/P312 has never found in Yamnaya or in any of the cultures related to it, and P297 has not been found in Eastern Europe, but in the Baltic countries.

There are a number of inaccuracies in what you posted.

1. Basques do have CHG.

2. Not all the objects of the BB package existed in Iberia before the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. That was pointed out by Harrison and Heyd, who speak of an early Iberian BB "proto-package" which lacked many if not most of the items that comprised the fully developed Kurgan BB package. That has been pointed out to you several times, backed by quotations from the literature, so either you are very forgetful, or you are being less than honest.

3. "Studies" (one study) of modern y-dna cannot show where a haplogroup originated. Modern people are the descendants of peoples who were not necessarily always where their descendants are found today.

4. As I pointed out, even listing the samples, the oldest P312 is not from Alsace.

Horses were not first domesticated in Iberia, and I'm not sure why you seem to think the mtDNA of Lusitanian horses is relevant. Fortunately, there is a study of ancient horse dna coming soon.




Everything seems clear right? . . .

No. Your argument is riddled with inaccuracies, half truths, and less-than-honest assertions.

There is little point in quoting the rest of your post.

Webb
09-08-2018, 01:31 PM
1-ALL the north of Spain, the Mediterranean coast, Aragón, West Andalucia, and part of Castilla la Mancha, spoke NON Indo-european languages when the Roman arrives to Hispania (218 BC), 2.000 years after the supposed arrival of the Indo-europeans.

2.- This territory was inhabited by Basque and Iberian peoples. Vascones, Iacetanos, Ilergetes, Ilercavones, Layetanos, Ausetanos, Bergistanos, Edetanos, Sedetanos, Contestanos, Oretanos, Bastetanos, Turdetanos, etc..... The Basques are not an exception, many other iberian peoples (and from the rest of Europe) resisted Indo-Europeanization..

This map paints a different picture than what you are trying to have everyone believe.

25745

GASKA
09-08-2018, 01:49 PM
Jean Manco repeatedly referred to Basque as a metal age language but I gather that's contentious, however I thought silver was supposed to have come from Basque ?

Found this very interesting article about Basque metal words

Basque Metal Names by Larry Trask (http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/Larry/metal.names.php)

Gold (urre) and silver (zilar), are metals known since the neolithic, the iberians worked the alluvial gold

Los Murcielagos cave (Albuñol, Granada)- 5000-4500 BC- Gold Headband


In prehistoric Europe, silver is a rare precious metal compared to gold. The scarcity of silver objects is remarkable in view of the large amount of other metals like copper, bronze, gold or iron. In the Caucasus area, and in the Eastern Mediterranean silver is quite abundant (IV-III Millenia BC), and in Iberia there is no known indigenous production until the Argar culture (2.200-1.200 BC). Therefore, "Zilar"-silver could have origin in the Caucasus.

La Almoloya (Argar culture, 1.650 BC). Silver Headband.

2574225742

Basque is very difficult, and I am not an expert linguist. For example;

Old Iberian and Proto-Basque- Seldar/Sildar- Means Plain, Flat

Iberian- Zeldar/Seltar- Also means Grave

Seldar is a word preserved in Old and Medieval Basque with the meaning of plain. Evolves phonetically- "Zelhar/Xelhar"- Today only preserves in France with the toponym and
surname Haritz-xelhar (Haritschelhar-Hartizelar)- That is to say "Plain of the oaks"

But it's also evolved to "Zildar", silver in Guipuzcoa, and "Zilar", silver in the rest of the Basque Country. Also means plain, flat, flattened.

How is it possible to a word to evolve like this? Very Easy.

Silver- Latin-"ARGENTUM"-Spanish- "ARGENTA" but also and much more used "PLATA". And where does this word come from?-

Greek-"PLATYS"- Latin "PLATTUS" which has two meanings Metal sheet (PLATA-silver) and flat/plain (PLATO-Plate).

The same happened in Basque, "Seldar/Zildar/Zilar" means plain, flat and silver. Everything is much complicated than it seems.

GASKA
09-08-2018, 02:31 PM
25747

Could someone tell me if there are any study that shows CHG autosomal component in the Basques?

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917

R.Rocca
09-08-2018, 02:36 PM
All the Hajji Firuz samples are pretty similar autosomally a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmer
25723
If the carbon dating failed you have no argument to question the uncontested archeological dating the sample has been given.

This is what I wrote elsewhere:


Regarding the samples from the Hajji Firuz site, the authors already threw out sample I4243 because radiocarbon testing dated it to 2465-2286 cal BCE. The reason why it's relevant is because it was found in burial unit F11 which produced samples I4349 (5887-5724 cal BCE) and I4351 (6056-5894 cal BCE). Z2103+ sample I2327 is labeled as being from Phase F-G, which according to their classification scheme should be older than these other samples (Phase A3). Counter intuitively, they chose to label it with a younger age of 5900-5500 BCE. So obviously some caution is justified here.

The authors keep trying to radiocarbon the sample because something is up.

R.Rocca
09-08-2018, 02:41 PM
Published two years ago Richard. The frequency and variability is important to know the origin of a haplogroup. I don't know other paper in Europe or America that has contradicted these conclusions. It sems that they are not very misguided because the ancient DNA speaks of Saxony or Alsace as the origin of P312, never the steppes.

The paper was published two years ago using outdated, so it is useless. Also if frequency and variability is important to know the origin of a haplogroup, then how come 100% of Bell Beaker samples from the Czech Republic that could be resolved with any resolution where R-U152 whereas today the frequency there is about 3%? Like I said, time and time again this argument has been shown to be false, so please stop using it.

rms2
09-08-2018, 02:49 PM
25747

Could someone tell me if there are any study that shows CHG autosomal component in the Basques?

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917

Try Haak et al (2015), Massive Migration from the Steppe is a Source of Indo-European Languages in Europe.

See Figure 3:

25748

I added the red arrow.

MitchellSince1893
09-08-2018, 03:16 PM
It's 2018. I started wiping my rear with papers that claim haplogroup origin from modern day frequency ...

For poops and giggles, if you do use the modern day frequency of DF27, L21, U152, other P312, and U106 (they eventually all go back to the same man),

As crudely represented by these ovals, they potentially overlap where the sources for the Rhone, Rhine, and Danube Rivers converge. Significant? Relevant? Not so much of their origin but the area where they (or some of their subclades) saw rapid growth.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/46/61/9f/46619fe9b737157c1bb2791d5116117d.png

Which is roughly near where the single grave/collective grave traditions overlap/meet
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/45/ba/d045ba67d9d80146c6c37e84906d67bd.png



That's another reason I'm looking forward to these papers from the Swiss Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age & and Ancient genomes from the Lech Valley, Bavaria.

MacUalraig
09-08-2018, 03:40 PM
Did you draw those yourself? What are the data sources behind them? Not that I'm casting doubt on them, just curious.

MitchellSince1893
09-08-2018, 03:47 PM
Did you draw those yourself? What are the data sources behind them? Not that I'm casting doubt on them, just curious.

Yes. It was just a rough eyeballing based on available present day maps...the p312 other oval is more subjective than the others. Like I said it’s crude.

MitchellSince1893
09-08-2018, 03:56 PM
I also used info I had previously collected
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=266907&viewfull=1#post266907
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=268530&viewfull=1#post268530

Dewsloth
09-08-2018, 04:14 PM
Yes. It was just a rough eyeballing based on available present day maps...the p312 other oval is more subjective than the others. Like I said it’s crude.

For your next version, modern DF19: :biggrin1:

17087

I’m on my phone, so can’t pull up the most recent one. There are three in Poland, now. There are also more since I saved that, but the outer distribution edges and concentrations aren’t greatly changed; the one in Spain turned out to not be DF19, and the one in Italy is on the same branch as Clan Grant.

GASKA
09-08-2018, 04:40 PM
The paper was published two years ago using outdated, so it is useless. Also if frequency and variability is important to know the origin of a haplogroup, then how come 100% of Bell Beaker samples from the Czech Republic that could be resolved with any resolution where R-U152 whereas today the frequency there is about 3%? Like I said, time and time again this argument has been shown to be false, so please stop using it.

Obviusly, variability and frequency, refer to current populations, and to this, we must add the antiquity of the clades that are found in these populations. If in a certain region you find all the oldest subclades of a haplogroup, and the greatest variability, it's place of birth can not be far away. Finding the first individual is practically impossible, we will have to settle for knowing approximately where he was born.

In Colombia the haplogroup Y more numerous is R1b-P312, and nobody has said that it had it's origin in América, simply because its subclades are younger and less varied.

On the contrary, the oldest subclades of P312 are found in Western Europe (not in the steppes), if we add to this the variability and frequency of this subclades in the current populations, obviously R1b-P312 is western. Spanish scientists say Franco-Cantabrian region, could have said the Eastern Pyrenees, Alsace or the valley of the river Seine.

Regarding the Czech BBs, which subclades and variability of U152 has the current Czech population? If it happens as in Colombia, its origin will be elsewhere, although all the BBs found are U152. May be they left, and then came back, or simply, you just forgot that in the Czech Republic there were other cultures besides the BB culture that probably have been more succesful in those lands than U152. It could also happens that this 3% of the population belongs to the older subclade (s) of U152, and that their descendants have migrated.

To say that P312 was born in the steppes is to say that he was born in Turkey, Croatia or Island. I don't think you defend that theory.

GASKA
09-08-2018, 05:00 PM
[QUOTE=rms2;482286]Try Haak et al (2015), Massive Migration from the Steppe is a Source of Indo-European Languages in Europe.

See Figure 3:

25748

I added the red arrow.[/QUOTE

We are talking about CHG, if the Basques lack this autosomal marker, the only explanation is that the Indoeuropeans, have only transmitted us, a small percentage of their 50% EHG, and 0% of CHG. It sounds impossible right?

The investigation of ancient dna advances very quickly, there will be other very old samples that will surely modify the current autosomal markers. Will see what happens with the theory of the steppes.

jdean
09-08-2018, 05:41 PM
Try Haak et al (2015), Massive Migration from the Steppe is a Source of Indo-European Languages in Europe.

See Figure 3:

25748

I added the red arrow.

We are talking about CHG, if the Basques lack this autosomal marker, the only explanation is that the Indoeuropeans, have only transmitted us, a small percentage of their 50% EHG, and 0% of CHG. It sounds impossible right?

The investigation of ancient dna advances very quickly, there will be other very old samples that will surely modify the current autosomal markers. Will see what happens with the theory of the steppes.

But that's the point isn't it, the Basques don't lack CHG they just have a lower % than some other European groups that have higher amounts of Steppe ancestry


while Basques seems to have a slightly lower amount of CHG than other modern Iberians, they do have some. That some CHG came from the central and eastern Mediterranean in non-Basque populations likely explains why.

rms2
09-08-2018, 08:00 PM
Try Haak et al (2015), Massive Migration from the Steppe is a Source of Indo-European Languages in Europe.

See Figure 3:

25748

I added the red arrow.

We are talking about CHG, if the Basques lack this autosomal marker, the only explanation is that the Indoeuropeans, have only transmitted us, a small percentage of their 50% EHG, and 0% of CHG. It sounds impossible right?

The investigation of ancient dna advances very quickly, there will be other very old samples that will surely modify the current autosomal markers. Will see what happens with the theory of the steppes.

They don't lack it, since they have a fairly substantial dose of Yamnaya autosomal dna, which is made up in part of CHG.

You really ought to give up lines of argument that have been clearly shown to be not just wrong but damned wrong.

rms2
09-08-2018, 08:13 PM
Obviusly, variability and frequency, refer to current populations, and to this, we must add the antiquity of the clades that are found in these populations. If in a certain region you find all the oldest subclades of a haplogroup, and the greatest variability, it's place of birth can not be far away. Finding the first individual is practically impossible, we will have to settle for knowing approximately where he was born.

Good grief. You're still arguing from an obsolete study based on modern y-dna.

Look at ancient y-dna.



In Colombia the haplogroup Y more numerous is R1b-P312, and nobody has said that it had it's origin in América, simply because its subclades are younger and less varied.

Oh, good grief.

I'll bet New York city has a pretty decent degree of P312 variance. Did P312 originate there?

There was no R1b-P312 in Iberia or in the "Franco-Cantabrian Refuge" before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker and its steppe autosomal dna.



On the contrary, the oldest subclades of P312 are found in Western Europe (not in the steppes), if we add to this the variability and frequency of this subclades in the current populations, obviously R1b-P312 is western. Spanish scientists say Franco-Cantabrian region, could have said the Eastern Pyrenees, Alsace or the valley of the river Seine.

Iñigo Olalde is Spanish, and he doesn't say that. Carles Lalueza-Fox is Spanish, and he doesn't say that.

You really ought to let it go and admit that your y-dna line is Russian. :P



Regarding the Czech BBs, which subclades and variability of U152 has the current Czech population? If it happens as in Colombia, its origin will be elsewhere, although all the BBs found are U152. May be they left, and then came back, or simply, you just forgot that in the Czech Republic there were other cultures besides the BB culture that probably have been more succesful in those lands than U152. It could also happens that this 3% of the population belongs to the older subclade (s) of U152, and that their descendants have migrated.

To say that P312 was born in the steppes is to say that he was born in Turkey, Croatia or Island. I don't think you defend that theory.

That was incoherent.

Europe became Indo-European speaking and predominantly R1b-M269 starting in the third millennium BC because of a massive migration of steppe pastoralists from the steppes of south Russia.

That is so obvious now that only someone blinded by a goofy ethno-nationalist agenda and/or some kind of anti-Eastern European bias can fail to see it.

You know I'm right, because I can see you're not stupid. You just keep putting one foot in front of the other in the old, comfortable path.

Give it up.

MitchellSince1893
09-08-2018, 08:36 PM
For your next version, modern DF19: :biggrin1:

17087

I’m on my phone, so can’t pull up the most recent one. There are three in Poland, now. There are also more since I saved that, but the outer distribution edges and concentrations aren’t greatly changed; the one in Spain turned out to not be DF19, and the one in Italy is on the same branch as Clan Grant.


Here is a less "crude" version using U152, U106, L21, DF27 eupedia maps (red diagonal area where they all overlap on the continent...excluding Scandinavia and the Isles). Unfortunately no DF19 map there.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/c5/f1/20c5f13f44eb8e6235d05c2d2b544263.png

razyn
09-09-2018, 02:08 AM
Unfortunately no DF19 map there.

I don't think that's really unfortunate. Eupedia maps have created more problems than they have solved, mainly because so many people use them so wrongly. (So far, DF19 has been spared that.) They fueled some excellent arguments, in their day. But thanks to aDNA, that day has nearly passed. Props to Maciamo, and you, and a few others for trying, while we wait for a semblance of reality to sprout up -- as it were, from drops of dragons' blood.

MitchellSince1893
09-09-2018, 03:33 AM
I don't think that's really unfortunate. Eupedia maps have created more problems than they have solved, mainly because so many people use them so wrongly. (So far, DF19 has been spared that.) They fueled some excellent arguments, in their day. But thanks to aDNA, that day has nearly passed. Props to Maciamo, and you, and a few others for trying, while we wait for a semblance of reality to sprout up -- as it were, from drops of dragons' blood.

No doubt. And the point of my map is if you are going to make a modern frequency argument for the origin of P312, it "ain't" going to be in Iberia/Franco-Cantabria. You would need to look further East to where all P312 subclades are common/overlap. You just can't divorce DF27 from brother clade U152; and as we know the oldest DF27 and U152 are both currently found in Germany.

Personally I feel P312 originated somewhere in Central or Eastern Europe, but rapid growth may have occurred in Germany/Eastern France/Low Countries from whence they entered the Isles (mostly L21), Iberia (mostly DF27), with U152 radiating out from this this central location (to include Czech, Hungary, Germany, France, Italy). But I could be wrong.

R.Rocca
09-09-2018, 02:33 PM
To say that P312 was born in the steppes is to say that he was born in Turkey, Croatia or Island. I don't think you defend that theory.

No, I didn't say it was born on the steppe. Not sure why you even mentioned it then.

rms2
09-09-2018, 04:28 PM
Honestly, I think it probably was, or very close.

R.Rocca
09-09-2018, 09:02 PM
The link between I-M26, modern day Basques and Sardinians and the inverse correlation between Basques/Sardinians/Neolithc ancestry on one side and steppe ancestry on the other is pretty much assured. I called this many, many years ago.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/12/07/092148.full.pdf

jdean
09-09-2018, 10:24 PM
The link between I-M26 modern day Basques and Sardinians and the inverse correlation between Basques/Sardinians/Neolithc ancestry on one side and steppe ancestry on the other is pretty much assured. I called this many, many years ago.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/12/07/092148.full.pdf

Ain't that a coincidence I was wondering about an ancient link between these two groups just this morning, of course it may have been my sub conscience at work : )

MitchellSince1893
09-09-2018, 10:30 PM
No, I didn't say it was born on the steppe. Not sure why you even mentioned it then.

Just for fun, I started a poll on where members think P312 originated.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-which-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated

rms2
09-09-2018, 10:44 PM
It would have been uncharacteristically reckless of Reich (reckless Reich?) to have referred to R1b-P312 as Y chromosome dna of steppe origin the way he did in his book if he did not know that was in fact the case.

I'm guessing they have some Yamnaya R1b-P312 they just haven't published yet. Just wait and see.

jdean
09-09-2018, 10:49 PM
Just for fun, I started a poll on where members think P312 originated.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-which-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated

Fun to start with, slanging match to follow : )

R.Rocca
09-09-2018, 11:06 PM
Ain't that a coincidence I was wondering about an ancient link between these two groups just this morning, off course it may have been my sub conscience at work : )

Key line of the paper:


We find the population of the mountainous Gennargentu region shows elevated genetic isolation with
higher levels of ancestry associated with mainland Neolithic farmers and depleted ancestry
associated with more recent Bronze Age Steppe migrations on the mainland. Notably, the
Gennargentu region also has elevated levels of pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry and
increased affinity to Basque populations.

jdean
09-09-2018, 11:19 PM
Key line of the paper:


We find the population of the mountainous Gennargentu region shows elevated genetic isolation with
higher levels of ancestry associated with mainland Neolithic farmers and depleted ancestry
associated with more recent Bronze Age Steppe migrations on the mainland. Notably, the
Gennargentu region also has elevated levels of pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry and
increased affinity to Basque populations.

My thoughts were along the lines of 'could the proto Basques have been elsewhere during the presumed unpleasantries in Bronze age Iberia ?'

Hence missing the cultural and language take over but then managing to pick up Steppe Y and autosomal DNA via osmosis but somehow avoiding the east Med stuff ????

GASKA
09-10-2018, 08:32 AM
Key line of the paper:

The data of Gunther and Valdiosera are devastating for the theory of the steppes, at least in the way that is been defended in this thread. The Basques are mainly Neolithic farmers (like the Sardinians), don't have CHG, are 90% R1b-P312, and the territory of the Basque Country and Navarre is the one that less BB sites have of all Spain. Linking P312 to the Yamnaya culture does not make any sense, and to say that P312 introduced BB culture in Switzerland, Italy, France and Spain makes even less sense.

It's not even clear which part of continental Europe came the first BBs that arrived in the British isles because Fitzpatrick points out obvious connections between the chalcolithic Irish gold, the Boscombe bowmen with the Iberian peninsula (collective burial, grave goods).

The explanation has to be different, may be the new paper of Olalde help us.

jdean
09-10-2018, 08:47 AM
The data of Gunther and Valdiosera are devastating for the theory of the steppes, at least in the way that is been defended in this thread. The Basques are mainly Neolithic farmers (like the Sardinians), don't have CHG, are 90% R1b-P312, and the territory of the Basque Country and Navarre is the one that less BB sites have of all Spain. Linking P312 to the Yamnaya culture does not make any sense, and to say that P312 introduced BB culture in Switzerland, Italy, France and Spain makes even less sense.

It would be a great courtesy to others posting on this thread if you could kindly stop repeating this fallacy or at least try and demonstrate how it could be true.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 08:52 AM
Good grief. You're still arguing from an obsolete study based on modern y-dna.

Look at ancient y-dna.



Oh, good grief.

I'll bet New York city has a pretty decent degree of P312 variance. Did P312 originate there?

There was no R1b-P312 in Iberia or in the "Franco-Cantabrian Refuge" before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker and its steppe autosomal dna.



Iñigo Olalde is Spanish, and he doesn't say that. Carles Lalueza-Fox is Spanish, and he doesn't say that.

You really ought to let it go and admit that your y-dna line is Russian. :P



That was incoherent.

Europe became Indo-European speaking and predominantly R1b-M269 starting in the third millennium BC because of a massive migration of steppe pastoralists from the steppes of south Russia.

That is so obvious now that only someone blinded by a goofy ethno-nationalist agenda and/or some kind of anti-Eastern European bias can fail to see it.

You know I'm right, because I can see you're not stupid. You just keep putting one foot in front of the other in the old, comfortable path.

Give it up.

I have absolutely clear that my Y-R1b.M269 line comes from Eastern Europe. I also know that P312 doesn't come from the Yamnaya culture, nor from any of the cultures related to it, and that the BB culture originated in Iberia.

That is so obvious now that only someone blinded by a goofy ethno-nationalist agenda and/or some kind of anti-Iberian bias can fail to see it.

You know I'm right, because I can see you're not stupid. You just keep putting one foot in front of the other in the old, comfortable path. The bad times of Sykes and Oppenheimer have already passed for you.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 09:06 AM
It would be a great courtesy to others posting on this thread if you could kindly stop repeating this fallacy or at least try and demonstrate how it could be true.

It's not a fallacy, or do you think that these people are lying?- Torsten Günther, Cristina Valdiosera, Helena Malström, Irene Ureña, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela, Oddny Osk Sverrisdotir, Evangelia Daskalaki, Pontus Skoglund, Thijessen Naidoo, Emma Svensson, Jose Mª Bermúdez de Castro, Eudald Carbonell, Michael Dunn, Jan Stora, Eneko Iriarte, Juan Luis Arsuaga, Jose Miguel Carretero, Anders Gothestrom and Mattias Jakobson.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/11917

"Furthermore, all modern day Iberian groups, EXCEPT the Basques, display distanct admixture with Caucasus Central Asian groups".

GASKA
09-10-2018, 09:27 AM
25784

etrusco
09-10-2018, 09:40 AM
Interesting stuff from Funnel Beaker culture:

https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-first-and-intriguing-glimpse-at-trb-west-group-adna/

jdean
09-10-2018, 09:56 AM
25784

Try using a paper that features CHG in some form or other.

jdean
09-10-2018, 09:57 AM
Please delete

GASKA
09-10-2018, 11:08 AM
Try using a paper that features CHG in some form or other.

I think that's what you should do to show if the Basques have CHG. Our difference of opinion is evident, I believe that Gunther et al are right and you think (and Ruderico like it) it´s a fallacy.

Latin-FALLACIA- Spanish- Falacia- English-Fallacy- Portuguese- (Falácia)- "A person uses a fallacy, to obtain something, that he knows he could not obtain otherwise than through a falsehood".

I think it would have been more correct for you, to say that they are wrong or that you don't share their opinion. Using the word "fallacy" is not appropriate when talking about prestigious researchers, or when you talk about other people, unless you are absolutely sure that they are lying and you can also prove it.

Ruderico
09-10-2018, 11:22 AM
I believe that Gunther et al are right and you think (and Ruderico like it) it´s a fallacy.

Very classy and respectful of you to bring other people's name like that, especially when you have no clue who am I or what I "like"

jdean
09-10-2018, 11:26 AM
I think that's what you should do to show if the Basques have CHG. Our difference of opinion is evident, I believe that Gunther et al are right and you think (and Ruderico like it) it´s a fallacy.

Latin-FALLACIA- Spanish- Falacia- English-Fallacy- Portuguese- (Falácia)- "A person uses a fallacy, to obtain something, that he knows he could not obtain otherwise than through a falsehood".

I think it would have been more correct for you, to say that they are wrong or that you don't share their opinion. Using the word "fallacy" is not appropriate when talking about prestigious researchers, or when you talk about other people, unless you are absolutely sure that they are lying and you can also prove it.

Their paper doesn't have any samples containing CHG and was published two months prior to the first paper on CHG making it impossible to use it to draw any conclusions regarding CHG.

Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians (https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912)

rms2
09-10-2018, 11:43 AM
I think that's what you should do to show if the Basques have CHG. Our difference of opinion is evident, I believe that Gunther et al are right and you think (and Ruderico like it) it´s a fallacy . . .

I already directed you to Haak et al (2015) and even posted a screenshot of Figure 3 from that paper, showing that the Basques have a fairly substantial percentage of Yamnaya-like autosomal dna, which includes CHG.

Originally no one knew what CHG was. It represented a "ghost" population and was referred to as "teal" because that was the color used to show it on bar graphs.

Then in November of 2015 (a couple of months after the Gunther et al paper you erroneously cited) CHG was defined following the testing of the Satsurblia and Kotias remains by Jones et al and the publication of Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians (https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912).

Once that paper came out, we knew what the teal component in Yamnaya autosomal dna was. Basques have it, since they have Yamnaya autosomal dna, and the teal component, now known to be CHG, is part of Yamnaya autosomal dna. Even Sardinians have a little bit of it.

You should drop the idea that Basques have no CHG now. It has already been refuted more than once.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 11:53 AM
Very classy and respectful of you to bring other people's name like that, especially when you have no clue who am I or what I "like"

I don't really know who you are, but I do have a clue what you like, because- Jdean said Post 186 (today, 8,47)- "It would be a great courtesy to others posting on this thread if you could kindly stop repeating this fallacy or at least, try and demonstrate how it could be true"

And the following user say thank you to jdean for this useful post- Ruderico

The only thing I can think is that you consider this post useful because jdean ask me to stop repeating a fallacy, and I tell you

1.- Have you read the study I sent?
2.-Do you know some paper that says the opposite?
3.- Do you think it's a fallacy what Gunther et al say, or you just think they are wrong?

jdean
09-10-2018, 11:57 AM
I don't really know who you are, but I do have a clue what you like, because- Jdean said Post 186 (today, 8,47)- "It would be a great courtesy to others posting on this thread if you could kindly stop repeating this fallacy or at least, try and demonstrate how it could be true"

And the following user say thank you to jdean for this useful post- Ruderico

The only thing I can think is that you consider this post useful because jdean ask me to stop repeating a fallacy, and I tell you

1.- Have you read the study I sent?
2.-Do you know some paper that says the opposite?
3.- Do you think it's a fallacy what Gunther et al say, or you just think they are wrong?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

rms2
09-10-2018, 11:58 AM
I have absolutely clear that my Y-R1b.M269 line comes from Eastern Europe. I also know that P312 doesn't come from the Yamnaya culture, nor from any of the cultures related to it, and that the BB culture originated in Iberia . . .

Have you read Reich's book or at least the quotes from it provided by R. Rocca and me? Have you read Olalde et al's The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe? How about Harrison and Heyd's paper on Sion and Aosta?

The early Iberian type of BB culture did evidently originate in Iberia, but clearly there was a second type of BB culture that did not. That second type I call Kurgan Bell Beaker just to differentiate it from the early Iberian type.

The two types of BB culture differed from one another considerably. The peoples who practiced them differed from one another considerably, as well. Their genetic differences were not small. Olalde et al made that clear, and now a second paper by Olalde et al is saying the same thing with many additional samples and a focus on Iberia itself.

In his recent book, Reich clearly refers to R1b-P312 as a y chromosome of steppe origin.

Ruderico
09-10-2018, 12:09 PM
Yeah you keep repeating the same things all over again despite people telling you you're wrong and why.
Don't know why you decided to single me out, but please do us a favour and stop talking about me, or even to me, especially when my last post on this topic was about sixty or seventy posts ago.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 12:47 PM
I already directed you to Haak et al (2015) and even posted a screenshot of Figure 3 from that paper, showing that the Basques have a fairly substantial percentage of Yamnaya-like autosomal dna, which includes CHG.

Originally no one knew what CHG was. It represented a "ghost" population and was referred to as "teal" because that was the color used to show it on bar graphs.

Then in November of 2015 (a couple of months after the Gunther et al paper you erroneously cited) CHG was defined following the testing of the Satsurblia and Kotias remains by Jones et al and the publication of Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians (https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912).

Once that paper came out, we knew what the teal component in Yamnaya autosomal dna was. Basques have it, since they have Yamnaya autosomal dna, and the teal component, now known to be CHG, is part of Yamnaya autosomal dna. Even Sardinians have a little bit of it.

You should drop the idea that Basques have no CHG now. It has already been refuted more than once.

S9 Admixture Graph Inference- September 8 2015- "We selected the high coverage Denisovan genome (used as root), Yorubans from the 1000 genomes project (used for SNP ascertainment), MA1, as representative of ancient northern Eurasian, and the highest coverage individual from each of the ancient European groups- ATP2-GOK2-Ajv58-NE1-Loschbour-Stuttgart-Motala12-Iceman-la Braña"

According to Haak et al- "Eastern European hunter gatherers who inhabited today's Russia, were a distinctive population of hunter gatherers with high affinity to a 24.000 old year Siberian from Mal'ta Buret". That is to say that at least 50% of autosomal component of Yamnaya (ANE-EHG) was analyzed by Gunther et al, and nothing appeared in modern Basques population.

I have always said (and you have just demonstrated with this new discovery of what is CHG), that Autosomal DNA is only in its infancy, that is new discoveries will vary the autosomal components that are used today to calculate admixtures and genetic components.

Olalde didn't use Late Neolithic or hunter gatherer populations for his comparisons. All comparisons were made between Anatolia Neolithic (or other Early neolithic) and Yamnaya-CW, so everything will be much more Yamnaya-like than it should, because Yamna are 50% EHG while Early Neolithic are very low in this component.

I want to say that everyone has to be very prudent with autosomal markers, because how can you be sure that CHG will not change in 6 months or 2 years?

jdean
09-10-2018, 01:17 PM
S9 Admixture Graph Inference- September 8 2015- "We selected the high coverage Denisovan genome (used as root), Yorubans from the 1000 genomes project (used for SNP ascertainment), MA1, as representative of ancient northern Eurasian, and the highest coverage individual from each of the ancient European groups- ATP2-GOK2-Ajv58-NE1-Loschbour-Stuttgart-Motala12-Iceman-la Braña"

According to Haak et al- "Eastern European hunter gatherers who inhabited today's Russia, were a distinctive population of hunter gatherers with high affinity to a 24.000 old year Siberian from Mal'ta Buret". That is to say that at least 50% of autosomal component of Yamnaya (ANE-EHG) was analyzed by Gunther et al, and nothing appeared in modern Basques population.

I have always said (and you have just demonstrated with this new discovery of what is CHG), that Autosomal DNA is only in its infancy, that is new discoveries will vary the autosomal components that are used today to calculate admixtures and genetic components.

Olalde didn't use Late Neolithic or hunter gatherer populations for his comparisons. All comparisons were made between Anatolia Neolithic (or other Early neolithic) and Yamnaya-CW, so everything will be much more Yamnaya-like than it should, because Yamna are 50% EHG while Early Neolithic are very low in this component.

I want to say that everyone has to be very prudent with autosomal markers, because how can you be sure that CHG will not change in 6 months or 2 years?

There isn't any CHG in Mal'ta boy and he wasn't included in the Günther paper which used EEF and WHG both of which lack CHG.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 01:28 PM
There isn't any CHG in Mal'ta boy and he wasn't included in the Günther paper which used EEF and WHG both of which lack CHG.

Mal'ta wasn't included in the Gunther paper? Have you read it?

Gunther et al "We selected......MA1 as representative of ancient northern Eurasian".

jdean
09-10-2018, 01:46 PM
Mal'ta wasn't included in the Gunther paper? Have you read it?

Gunther et al "We selected......MA1 as representative of ancient northern Eurasian".

25796

25798

25797

25795

GASKA
09-10-2018, 02:19 PM
25796

25798

25797

25795

S9. Admixture graph inference
We inferred a bifurcating population history that allows for directed pulse admixture events
using TreeMix v1.12 [98]. TreeMix estimates a maximum-likelihood tree from the covariance
matrix of allele frequencies and then adds migration edges to account for residual
covariance. We selected the high coverage Denisovan genome (used as root), Yorubans
from the 1000 genomes project (used for SNP ascertainment), MA1 (as representative of
ancient North Eurasians) and the highest coverage individual from each of the ancient
European groups (ATP2, Gok2, Ajv58, NE1, Loschbour, Stuttgart, Motala12, Iceman,
LaBrana)[19,20,71,73,74]. Overlapping sequence data was available for these individuals at
396,797 transversion SNPs. Since all groups were represented by single individuals,
correction for low samples sizes was turned off (-noss) and standard errors were estimated
using blocks of 500 SNPs. All graphs in all settings were estimated with 100 different random
seeds. The majority of runs (between 75% and 90% for all models) supported the results we
discuss below.

jdean
09-10-2018, 02:29 PM
S9. Admixture graph inference
We inferred a bifurcating population history that allows for directed pulse admixture events
using TreeMix v1.12 [98]. ......

From the supplementary information, discussing methodology. The paper itself doesn't concern Malta boy, specifically it's about EEF and WHG though SHG is also used.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 02:52 PM
From the supplementary information, discussing methodology. The paper itself doesn't concern Malta boy, specifically it's about EEF and WHG though SHG is also used.

To further investigate the relationship between the El Portalón farmers and modern-day individuals, we inferred admixture fractions (22) among a large set of modern-day individuals from Eurasia and North Africa (Fig. 3A and Datasets S1 and S5). All modern-day Iberian groups displayed ancestry from early farmers and hunter–gatherers and also showed admixture from North Africa (Fig. 3A, yellow component) (23) and the Caucasus/Central Asia (Fig. 3A, dark purple component), potentially related to the observed migration during the Bronze Age (24, 25) or the later Roman Empire ruling of Iberia. Basques (including French Basques) were an exception; they display ancestry from early farmers and hunter–gatherers, similar to other modern-day Iberian groups, but little or no admixture from North Africa and the Caucasus/Central Asia (1, 23) (Fig. 3A and SI Appendix, section S10). Interestingly, among all European groups, Basques and Sardinians displayed strong genetic affinity to the El Portalón farmers (Fig. 3B and SI Appendix, Fig. S8). However, all other early farmers were closer to Sardinians (SI Appendix, Figs. S11 and S12), and Basques were closer to El Portalón individuals (or equally close for Gok2) compared with all other early farmers (SI Appendix, Fig. S13). To further test the scenario of Basques being the genetically most similar group to the El Portalón farmers, we computed D-statistics for different population topologies. All topologies where Basques were an outgroup to the highest coverage El Portalón individual (ATP2) and another modern-day Spanish population—D(Mbuti, Basques; other Spanish, ATP2)—were rejected [36 tests, false discovery rate (FDR) < 0.01] (SI Appendix, section S11) whereas all topologies using Basques as an ingroup with ATP2, and another Spanish population as an outgroup, were consistent with the data. Test results for the other ATP individuals showed qualitatively similar patterns (SI Appendix, section S11 and Datasets S6 and S7). Our data suggest that modern-day Basques traced their genetic ancestry to early Iberian farmers.

GASKA
09-10-2018, 03:07 PM
So according to Gunther et al, we traced our genetic ancestry to early Iberian farmers (European farmers) and WHG, and we have 90% R1b-P312, that supposedly arrived in the peninsula Post 2.500 BC.

"Modern day Iberian groups displayed ancestry from the Caucasus/Central Asia, potentially related to the observed migration during the Bronze Age. Basques were an exception". Obviusly it means that steppe ancestry is not observed in modern day Basques.

jdean
09-10-2018, 03:18 PM
Basques (including French Basques) were an exception; they display ancestry from early farmers and hunter–gatherers, similar to other modern-day Iberian groups, but little or no admixture from North Africa and the Caucasus/Central Asia

Caucasus/Central Asia isn't CHG, as I said before they didn't use any samples for comparison containing CHG and wouldn't have known about CHG anyway.

There are papers that have got aDNA with CHG components that were used to analyse modern Basques (as Rich has pointed out), why don't you read those rather than post incessantly about this one ?


However, the statistic f4(Basque, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara,Chimp)=0.00168 is significantly positive (Z=8.1), as is the statistic f4(Spanish, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara, Chimp)= 0.00092 (Z=4.6). This indicates that steppe ancestry occurs in present-day southwestern European populations, and that even the Basques cannot be considered as mixtures of early farmers and hunter-gatherers without it (4).

Basques are not simply a fusion of Iberian hunter-gatherers and early farmers (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/10/basques-are-not-simply-fusion-of.html)

Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477?%3Fcollection=)

R.Rocca
09-10-2018, 03:19 PM
So according to Gunther et al, we traced our genetic ancestry to early Iberian farmers (European farmers) and WHG, and we have 90% R1b-P312, that supposedly arrived in the peninsula Post 2.500 BC.

"Modern day Iberian groups displayed ancestry from the Caucasus/Central Asia, potentially related to the observed migration during the Bronze Age. Basques were an exception". Obviusly it means that steppe ancestry is not observed in modern day Basques.

Nonsense. Basques have EHG and CHG which combined makes up the Yamnaya component. Here is my nMonte run comparing Basques with Iberian Early Neolithic, Eastern Hunter Gatherers (EHG), Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG) and Western Hunter Gatherers (WHG). Please stop propagating the lie that Basques do not have steppe and/or CHG. It really shows that you do not have a clue about DNA and are bordering on troll status.

Basque
--------
Iberia_EN, 64.1%
EHG, 20.7%
CHG, 9.1%
WHG, 6.1%

Basque_French
----------------
Iberia_EN, 63.9%
EHG, 20.7%
CHG, 8.1%
WHG, 7.3%

Basque_Spanish
------------------
Iberia_EN, 65.3%
EHG, 20.8%
WHG, 7.1%
CHG, 6.8%

etrusco
09-10-2018, 03:23 PM
@all

I've red that the CHG component is still something not so well determined and specified. I recall researchers calling a this more a "CHG like component". Is that true?

Isidro
09-10-2018, 04:01 PM
My understanding about the component called CHG found in the Yamnaya population that migrated into central and northern Europe in the 3rd Millenium BC was a component already existing in the northern Caucasus, hence nothing to do with anything south of the Caucasus for the past 6,000 years.

CHG is still not refined to make assertive comments about it's trace origins and inceptions. Even EEF, EHG and WHG has no clear partitions, it's not like all these populations lived isolated from each other from the dawn of humanity. Genetists try to understand how we all mixed to come up with today's combined DNA.

Ancient DNA analyzed from 6,000 years ago gives us a glance at the window of the past, same revelation we got with Spencer Wells et al and the 12 marker headlines, we know how that ended up. I still don't get what is the hurry to wrap things up and shot down voices raising questions and concerns about conclusions.

Back to the Yamnaya, EHG and CHG in Europe, the further away from the possible sources what I see we get is Yamnaya related DNA, present of course but to asign 10 or 20 or 30% Yamnaya in the outer rings of those components is misguided and in my view agenda driven.

etrusco
09-10-2018, 04:15 PM
My understanding about the component called CHG found in the Yamnaya population that migrated into central and northern Europe in the 3rd Millenium BC was a component already existing in the northern Caucasus, hence nothing to do with anything south of the Caucasus for the past 6,000 years.

CHG is still not refined to make assertive comments about it's trace origins and inceptions. Even EEF, EHG and WHG has no clear partitions, it's not like all these populations lived isolated from each other from the dawn of humanity. Genetists try to understand how we all mixed to come up with today's combined DNA.

Ancient DNA analyzed from 6,000 years ago gives us a glance at the window of the past, same revelation we got with Spencer Wells et al and the 12 marker headlines, we know how that ended up. I still don't get what is the hurry to wrap things up and shot down voices raising questions and concerns about conclusions.

Back to the Yamnaya, EHG and CHG in Europe, the further away from the possible sources what I see we get is Yamnaya related DNA, present of course but to asign 10 or 20 or 30% Yamnaya in the outer rings of those components is misguided and in my view agenda driven.


Yes I agree. "autosomal" calculations are still in their infancy. I think future examinations will give more precise outcomes.

jdean
09-10-2018, 04:29 PM
Agenda aside it seems we're drifting into denial now : )

R.Rocca
09-10-2018, 05:04 PM
My understanding about the component called CHG found in the Yamnaya population that migrated into central and northern Europe in the 3rd Millenium BC was a component already existing in the northern Caucasus, hence nothing to do with anything south of the Caucasus for the past 6,000 years.

CHG is still not refined to make assertive comments about it's trace origins and inceptions. Even EEF, EHG and WHG has no clear partitions, it's not like all these populations lived isolated from each other from the dawn of humanity. Genetists try to understand how we all mixed to come up with today's combined DNA.

Ancient DNA analyzed from 6,000 years ago gives us a glance at the window of the past, same revelation we got with Spencer Wells et al and the 12 marker headlines, we know how that ended up. I still don't get what is the hurry to wrap things up and shot down voices raising questions and concerns about conclusions.

Back to the Yamnaya, EHG and CHG in Europe, the further away from the possible sources what I see we get is Yamnaya related DNA, present of course but to asign 10 or 20 or 30% Yamnaya in the outer rings of those components is misguided and in my view agenda driven.

It's called Yamnaya ancestry in Central and Western Europe because both EHG and CHG show up at one time there beginning with Corded Ware, Steppe Bell Beaker and other steppe derived cultures like Vucedol.

R.Rocca
09-10-2018, 05:11 PM
Yes I agree. "autosomal" calculations are still in their infancy. I think future examinations will give more precise outcomes.

Don't regurgitate what GASKA said. Autosomal calculations are not in their infancy, they have been around for over a decade. The CHG component was found by blogger Dienekes a decade ago and he labeled it Gedrosia. Academics noted it as a 'ghost' population because they didn't have source samples for it until a couple of years ago.

Isidro
09-10-2018, 05:17 PM
Of course, no need to repeat what I said, and the further from the source the combined EHG and CHG called Yamanaya dilutes more and more from it's impure source that already has gone mixings of unknown sources of their own.


It's called Yamnaya ancestry in Central and Western Europe because both EHG and CHG show up at one time there beginning with Corded Ware, Steppe Bell Beaker and other steppe derived cultures like Vucedol.

Isidro
09-10-2018, 05:21 PM
Whenever I need you to speak for me I will let you know, I guess you are addressing my agenda comment, if so agenda denial suits quite well.

Agenda aside it seems we're drifting into denial now : )

rms2
09-10-2018, 05:26 PM
The mistaken idea that the Basques have no CHG has been thoroughly and resoundingly refuted by several of us a number of times already.

So, can we leave that behind now?

jdean
09-10-2018, 05:34 PM
Whenever I need you to speak for me I will let you know, I guess you are addressing my agenda comment, if so agenda denial suits quite well.

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GASKA
09-10-2018, 06:40 PM
Does anyone think that any question related to genetics, archeology, language or anthropology is closed with the knowledge we have today? The autosomal components will change, the origin of L51 / P312 and the Basques will change, the origin, the time and the way of extending the Indo-European language will continue to be debated for years, the origin and the way of expanding of the BB culture as well, and even , the day will come that we know who was the first man to tame a horse. Meanwhile, many intelligent people strive to advance, elaborate their theories and defend them honestly, many of them will be wrong, but finally we will find the solution. And I'll have to resign myself to being a troll.

Romilius
09-10-2018, 07:56 PM
Does anyone think that any question related to genetics, archeology, language or anthropology is closed with the knowledge we have today? The autosomal components will change, the origin of L51 / P312 and the Basques will change, the origin, the time and the way of extending the Indo-European language will continue to be debated for years, the origin and the way of expanding of the BB culture as well, and even , the day will come that we know who was the first man to tame a horse. Meanwhile, many intelligent people strive to advance, elaborate their theories and defend them honestly, many of them will be wrong, but finally we will find the solution. And I'll have to resign myself to being a troll.

Your behaviour is literally provoking and annoying. Please, come down from the fancy throne you built for yourself and you heritage and begin to understand something other people - whom I admire for patience and tolerance towards a person who thinks to be the Truth antropologically incarnated - are studying these subjects for more years than you.

You don't defend your theory honestly: you are denying facts presented in many papers and you are clearly driven by an agenda so visible and brighting that I have to cover my eyes not to be blinded by it. But I won't insist: there isn't worse blind than the person who doesn't want to see. Open your eyes and your hears and learn something, beginning with savoir faire. There are too many Rambo-like and wise-guys to deal with... don't show all your bad taste through adding yourself to their horde.

I reported your post, because is really really provoking and not suited for a healthy discussion.

Isidro
09-10-2018, 08:55 PM
Strange, I got a quote reply from Romilius and it's not showing up. I wonder why, any idea what happened Mr. R?.

Isidro
09-10-2018, 08:56 PM
Heinz?.

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Moderator
09-11-2018, 09:14 AM
This thread has been closed for moderation.