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hearding
10-22-2013, 02:00 AM
So what do we know (if anything) about the age of Z295? Having recently been identified as a previously unheard-of Z295* fella, I'm curious when this SNP arose.

I imagine Z295's age will probably be < 2.7k bp, because isn't that about when its upstream Z220 arose?

I'm assuming that Z295 is continental in origin, as it wouldn't make much sense for there to be so many SNPs downstream of it (CTS4065, Z216, etc) on the continent, if it had arisen on the British Isles.

Thanks.

razyn
10-22-2013, 02:15 PM
At the moment this part of the haplotree is handicapped by insufficient data. Comparison of a very few samples doesn't yield very trustworthy dates. Mike may be able to sort it a little better in Excel worksheets, I'm not -- but that doesn't make the sample much bigger. The only tests for Z295 that post to the FTDNA haplogroup projects (for example) are Geno2 tests taken by FTDNA customers, who then transfer the results into their FTDNA projects. And if Geno2 is the only test taken by a given participant, that doesn't yield any STR values from which to calculate variance (key to the dating methods in which we place much trust). There are more places to test for SNPs, now -- but it's hard to get a handle on all the data, make it comparable between companies, platforms, etc.

However, this situation is fluid, shifting pretty rapidly, and I doubt if you'll have to wait very long. One thing that just might tip the scale would be a groundswell of interest in "terminal" SNPs coming from the more old-fashioned genealogists (who run many of the big surname-type projects). New players such as Irish Origenes are beginning to get the message through to that market, that SNPs aren't exclusively the domain of academic anthropologists.

hearding
10-22-2013, 02:42 PM
Thanks, Dick. If it helps flesh out the existing STR data at all, and if anyone is interested in looking into this more closely, you or Mike et al might want to take a look at one or more of my cousins in the Hardin/Harden/Harding Project, as they've done the 67 marker test (I've only done 37 STR). And since they're quite close cousins of mine (TMRCA < 200 years), I'm assuming they'll be Z295* as well. If you go to the HHH DNA page (http://www.hhhdna.com/hhh.htm), you'll find us as the powder-blue colored group about halfway down the page (common ancestor, Benjamin B. Hardin).

There's also a chap named Huddleston that's already in Mike's spreadsheet; he's my cousin within the last 500 years or so, so his STRs will be relevant here, too.

Again, I say all this just in case anyone wants to use these as data points.

razyn
02-09-2014, 06:48 PM
More or less in preparation for the onslaught of new SNPs from Big Y and FGC testing, I've created a subgroup for CTS4065+ that's structurally parallel with Z216. Some of us know better (there should be other stuff above them, e.g. Z295), but that was what was easiest at the moment; it's all going to get more complicated in a few weeks anyhow. It may be possible for the mathematically inclined and Excel-competent among us to do some better TMRCA guesstimation of the times at which those two subsets of Z295 (independently) diverged from it. You would be in some third group of Z295 that we haven't yet identified. There may be some others.

Anyway, doing this sort of thing would address your original question -- I'm not really up to the task, and of course the data should start getting better and better (which will probably shift the modals, change the TMRCA, and so on). I don't think any member of your Hardin project has joined DF27 yet, other than 74838. That's free, and would be helpful -- especially, one of the guys with 67 markers. Or you might prevail upon someone to upgrade to 111, next time there's a sale on that.

Thought I'd edit this while I still can (under 24 hours from the original post). I looked at what we have so far in the DF27 project; you (and presumably a number of your cousins) have the only Z295* so far. There are three more who come close (don't show either CTS4065 or CTS12074 as derived), but all have at least one further SNP that's tested on Geno2, Z270.

74838 = Z295*
262674 = Z295+ and Z270+
281564 = Z295+, Z270+ and Z211+
N115536 = Z295+, Z270+ and PF5535+

Plus, we have six more guys who are Z295+, Z270+, CTS12074+ (they are also Z278+, and would presumably track with Z216 if tested, so they aren't a special sorting problem).

FTDNA now offers a Z295 test, and at least one sample is being tested for it in the current week's Batch 555. There may also have been some orders last week, I'm not sure. It's a pretty new test, and btw has also been available from YSEQ for about two months.