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Dubhthach
10-23-2013, 04:21 PM
I was looking at Eupedia and came across a thread which states that Brabant project has retested it's partipants for aditional SNP's. Here's the details:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29129-Deeper-R1b-subclade-resolution-for-the-Brabant-Y-DNA-Project-(Belgium)


The Brabant DNA Project, with 1000+ members from all Belgium and a few from bordering areas (especially North Brabant in the Netherlands), has re-tested the Y-DNA of all R1b members for the following subclades.

- Under U106: Z18, Z381, L48, and U198
- Under P312: L21/M529 and Z195/Z196
- Under U152: L2 and L20

The new distribution is as follows:

Belgium (n=871 with confirmed Belgian ancestors )

TOTAL R1b : n=524 (60%)

P25 : n=1 (0.1%)
P297 : n=1 (0.1%)
M269 (+ L23) : n=16 (1.8%)
P310/L11 : n=6 (0.7%)

- All U106/S21 : n=218 (25%)
-- U106* : n=15 (1.7%)
-- Z18 : n=18 (2%)
-- Z381 : n=72 (8.3%)
--- U198 : n=9 (1%)
--- L48 : n=104 (11.9%)

- All P312/S116 : n=282 (32.3%)
-- P312* : n=84 (9.6%)
-- L21 : n=78 (8.9%)
-- Z196* : n=27 (3.1%)
-- SRY2627 : n=6 (0.7%)
-- U152* : n=28 (3.2%)
--- L2 : n=46 (5.2%)
---- L20 : n=13 (1.5%)


This is extremely interesting since we have for the first accurate percentage of R1b-L21 for Belgium and it is a bit higher than expected (nearly 9%).

L48 makes up nearly half of all U106 lineages, which is to be expected considering that this is a huge branch with plenty of subclades of its own. It is perhaps more surprising that 8.3% of Z381 are U198- and L48-, which means that they could either belong to the more mysterious Z153 and/or another subclade yet to be identified.

On the U152 side, just above two third of the lineages are L2+, including 15% of L20+. The proportion of L2 to U152 is in the average for northern Europe. This leaves only 3.2% for Z36, Z56 and Z192.

There is still 9.6% of P312 not accounted for. This might include some of the 7 other clades of DF27 beside Z196, which is already at a surprisingly high 3.8%. We can surely expect between 5% and 10% of DF27 in Belgium.

From a P312 point of view they added in L21 and Z196 (no DF27). Seems L21 amounts for 8.9% wheras Z196 had fairly healthy 3.1%. That left 9.6% as undifferentiated P312*. I be curious how much of that is DF27, DF19 etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Peter M
10-24-2013, 03:53 PM
I was looking at Eupedia and came across a thread which states that Brabant project has retested it's partipants for aditional SNP's.

From a P312 point of view they added in L21 and Z196 (no DF27). Seems L21 amounts for 8.9% wheras Z196 had fairly healthy 3.1%. That left 9.6% as undifferentiated P312*. I be curious how much of that is DF27, DF19 etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Paul, afaia, there are two projects going on, one in the Netherlands with the University of Leiden and one in Belgium with the University of Leuven. One of the participants of the Belgian project was tested Z18+ in this Phase II, found the web site of the R-Z18 project and sent me his test results. He turned out ot be a clear a member of one of the Z14+ Clusters (see www.L257.org; Cumberland-B Cluster, profile without Kit#, so we could tell him more about his results (Z14+, DF95+, DYS458.2+) and their meaning.

Apparently, there's a forum for participants of the Belgium project and this person promised me to put a call for other participants to send their results to me, so that I could classify them. Up to now no responses, so my guess is, not too many people are using the forum and/or are interested to find out more.

I've approached the administration of the forum to get access (I'm fluent in Dutch of course). They promised me access provided I would send them all sorts of personal and genalogical information. I did send them all information I had, but then they said that was not enough and the access never materialised. I guess, they'll always insist what I send not being enough even if a send them a full library.

I still think getting in contact with these people might give them (much) more info (they appear not to get much background information now) and us a new perspective on R1b haplogroups (we do not have too many Dutch profiles at the moment.

GoldenHind
10-24-2013, 05:01 PM
I had hopes that they would test the 84 P312* samples for DF27, DF19 and DF99, as they did in the Netherlands project. It would be very interesting to compare the results.

Ryan
04-18-2014, 11:48 AM
Well, it's more complicated.

Maciamo isn't an authority on the subject.
It's his mistake to single out the Belgians.
That wasn't the target of the research.

The real website is:

http://www.brabant-dna.org/

In fact, the YDNA is taken from people that have their ancestry in the old Duchy of Brabant.
And they live both in Belgium and The Netherlands.
I was, as a Dutchman, part of this Belgian research.
One of the rules was, you had to have a written ancestry living in Brabant for at least 400 years.

A further explanation:

Because Brabant is the origin of the people that were tested, it has in fact little to do with the Dutch program.
The part of The Netherlands we call Brabant was actually colonized from the south. (What is today Belgium)
Leuven (Louvain), Antwerp and Brussels were the main cities from where the Duchy of Brabant started to develop in northern direction.
The city of Den Bosch was even built as a stronghold to protect the trade over the river Meuse.

So, for good understanding.. Brabant existed long before The Netherlands and Belgium got on the world map. :)

rms2
04-18-2014, 12:10 PM
Well, it's more complicated.

Maciamo isn't an authority on the subject.
It's his mistake to single out the Belgians.
That wasn't the target of the research.

The real website is:

http://www.brabant-dna.org/

English version available.

In fact, the YDNA is taken from people that have their ancestry in the old Duchy of Brabant.
And they live both in Belgium and The Netherlands.
I was, as a Dutchman, part of this Belgian research.
One of the rules was, you had to have a written ancestry living in Brabant for at least 400 years.

I guess he was just trying to get a Belgian result, exclusive of Netherlanders.

How much of Brabant is Walloon as opposed to Flemish and Dutch?

I noticed that selecting "British English" does not result in much English.

There is a current tally of total results here (http://www.brabant-dna.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1377&t=3643).

Dubhthach
04-18-2014, 12:21 PM
Historically I think all of the Dutchy of Brabant was Dutch/Flemish speaking (Brabantish/Brabantian dialect). If you look at map obviously a section of historic duchy is now part of Wallonia (Wallonian Brabant). I see this following map on wikipedia -- not sure on it's accuracy, but it implies that the area this is now part of Wallonia would have been bilingual in the 8th century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Languages_in_Belgium.jpg

rms2
04-18-2014, 12:53 PM
Looks like much of the historic Duchy of Brabant extended into the French-speaking part of Belgium. It would be nice to know the difference between the results of the French and Flemish speakers in the Brabant Project.

Historic Duchy of Brabant:

1741

rms2
04-18-2014, 01:17 PM
One does see an inverse relationship between U106 and P312 as one moves south and west from Dutch Friesland to Busby's sample location in Amersfoort in the Netherlands and then on into Belgium. This is reflected in the stats from the Genome of the Netherlands Project, as reported elsewhere by Goldenhind, in Busby's samples from the Netherlands, and in the results from the Brabant Project.

In Friesland, the relevant stats from Busby are as follows:

N = 94
U106 = 42.6%
P312xL21,U152 = 4.3%
L21 = 5.3%
U152 = 1.1%

Farther south, in Amersfoort, Busby got the following:

N = 87
U106 = 36.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 6.9%
L21 = 5.7%
U152 = 3.4%

Here are the stats from the Genome of the Netherlands Project, but I do not know where in the Netherlands the samples were collected:

N = 500

U106 = 36%

P312 (all) = 18.6%

Z195 = 4.4%

U152 = 7.2%

L21 = 3.2%

DF19 = 2%

DF99 = 0.8%

Here are Busby's results from Lille, France, very near the border with Belgium:

N = 68
U106 = 8.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 17.6%
L21 = 10.3%
U152 = 17.6%

And, of course, the Brabant Project's latest stats can be found here (http://www.brabant-dna.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1377&t=3643).

One can see the steady drop in U106 and the increase in P312 as one moves south and west from Germanic Friesland in the North, through the Netherlands and Belgium, and on into Lille in NE France.

Ryan
04-18-2014, 08:58 PM
Hmm.. I guess it's hard to understand.
Brabant always was a Dutch speaking Duchy.
Only the elite also spoke French.
All diplomatic talks in Europe were in French for a long time.

Only in modern time, part of Brussels was turned into a French speaking region.

But language has little to do with ancestry.
I am Dutch, but I also can speak English, French and German.
Europe differs from the UK and the USA in that matter.

Only some Belgians make a struggle about languages.. B)

rms2
04-18-2014, 09:19 PM
. . .

But language has little to do with ancestry.
I am Dutch, but I also can speak English, French and German.
Europe differs from the UK and the USA in that matter.
. . .

Living in a very small country in the midst of a Babel of tongues, and not far from the borders of larger and more important neighbors who speak other languages, goes a long way toward insentivizing the acquisition of additional languages. Doing something out of practical necessity should not be the object of boasting or of condescension.

I speak a couple of different languages, and I am an American.

Cdanel
06-28-2014, 08:26 PM
I'm new to this forum. My grandfather was French but near Belgium. My father is Z381 and U198- and L48-. We have traced my father's paternal ancestors sequentially back to the year 1609 AD using government birth records. All of my father's ancestors were born within 50 miles of Hesdin, France. His profile is Public. 98435