PDA

View Full Version : Genetic variation of Armenians and GEDMatch results to show this variation?



Sikeliot
08-08-2018, 04:01 AM
As we know, Armenia was historically much larger, and mostly further south, than it is today. Modern "Armenia" is a small sliver of the land on which Armenians used to live, and is the northernmost extent of their historical land.

Therefore, it makes sense that many people living in Armenia today, have ancestry originating much further south. Armenia was essentially created to give a homeland to people who had been pushed out of, and ethnically cleansed from, their native homelands. Therefore, it is likely that many Armenians are genetically not so much "Caucasian" but much closer to their Arab and Persian neighbors from further south, as well as to Pontic Greeks.

Does anyone have examples of Armenian GEDMatch results? Are there Armenians who could be genetically mistaken for, or could be considered a subset of, a Levantine population? What about the other end of the spectrum? Or are most closer to Iranians and Afghans?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/turkey-armenia.gif

Dmitry
08-08-2018, 05:32 AM
Actually, a recent study on the genetic prehistory of the Caucasus, as well as another study on Armenians (Haber et. al 2015) have shown that the Armenian ancestry profile has largely remained the same since the Bronze age. Ancient North and South Caucasian cultures such as the Late Maykop and Kura-Araxes cluster genetically with modern day Armenians, Iranians, Georgians, and Azeris. Thus, Armenians are pretty "Caucasian" genetically. The Caucasus study has revealed that there has been gene flow from the Mesopotamia into the Caucasus well before the bronze age. The study concluded that Armenians retained the bronze age ancestry profile of the Caucasus, while modern-day North Caucasians received an influx of more northern ancestry (likely excess steppe).

In terms of modern-day Armenian population structure, Haber et. al 2015 states that Armenians can be divided into two clusters: Western Armenians (who trace their origins to modern day Eastern Turkey) form one group and Eastern Armenians (who inhabit the region in and near the Caucasus) form another group. However, they found that the majority of modern-day Armenians (57%) belong to the Eastern Armenian cluster, whereas only 33% belong to the Western Armenian cluster. A few Armenians from Adygea and Chambarak are outlying to these two clusters, they likely harbor excess modern-day North Caucasian admixture. Interestingly enough, the author found that the two clusters split relatively recently - 400 to 500 years ago. This corresponds with the rise of wars between the Ottoman and Safavid dynasties which divided Armenian populations between Turkish and Persian empires. This is not due to differentiated admixture, but simply due to genetic drift forming population structure since the studies already indicated that they have remained relatively genetically isolated since about 1200 BCE.

There are no Armenians that could be considered a "subset" of a Levantine population. However, they are genetically related to other genetic isolates in the Near East - Druze, Assyrians, Lebanese Christians, Cypriots, and Near Eastern Jews. That is the reason some Levantines seem genetically close to Armenians. It is not because Armenians have modern Levantine admixture, it is because of shared affinities with genetic isolates in the Levant. Genetic isolates in the Levant like the Druze have similar proportions of neolithic farmer ancestry to Armenians, and that is where their shared affinity comes from.


One of the most-studied demographic processes in population genetics is the Neolithic expansion of Near Eastern farmers into Europe beginning ~8000 years ago. Armenians’ location at the northern tip of the Near East suggests a possible relationship to the expanding Neolithic farmers. We find in Armenians and other genetic isolates in the Near East high shared ancestry with ancient European farmers, with ancestry proportions being similar to present-day Europeans but not to present-day Near Easterners. These results suggest that genetic isolates in the Near East – Cypriots (an island population), Near Eastern Jews and Christians (religious isolates), and Armenians (Ethno-linguistic isolate) – probably retain the features of an ancient genetic landscape in the Near East that had more affinity to Europe than the present populations do. Our tests show that most of the Near East genetic isolates' ancestry that is shared with Europeans can be attributed to expansion after the Neolithic period.


Armenians’ adoption of a distinctive culture early in their history resulted in their genetic isolation from their surroundings. Their genetic resemblance today to other genetic isolates in the Near East, but not to most other Near Easterners, suggests that recent admixture has changed the genetic landscape in most populations in the region. Armenians’ genetic diversity reveals that the ancient Near East had higher affinity to Neolithic Europe than it does now, and that Bronze Age demographic processes had a major impact on the genetics of populations in this region.

Most Armenians are genetically close to Iranians, but I do not think they are that close to Afghans on a non-global scale (the reason for that is because Afghans lack Med admixture that Armenians are rich in). Armenians are essentially a mixture of Chalcolithic Anatolians and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers. They are genetically closer to Levantines than they are to Afghans, although they are culturally and historically closer to Afghans than they are to Levantines due to shared Persian history.

Dmitry
08-08-2018, 06:17 AM
I think you are also forgetting that a large portion of Eastern Turkey (where Armenians inhabited) technically lies within the Caucasus as well. Armenians are not some population from Anatolia and Mesopotamia with no historical connections to the Caucasus mountains, a large portion of them have inhabited the caucasus for ages. Modern day Armenia is not simply a "creation to give people who were evacuated from their homelands a new homeland." Modern day Armenia was also a part of historical Armenia, too. And much of the parts of Turkey where Armenians come from lies within the ranges of the Caucasus as well. Armenians are definitely a Caucasian people - both historically and genetically.

Sikeliot
08-09-2018, 12:20 AM
I still do wonder though -- what is the genetically closest an Armenian can come out to Lebanese or Syrians?

Dmitry
08-09-2018, 12:39 AM
I still do wonder though -- what is the genetically closest an Armenian can come out to Lebanese or Syrians?

Here are some Armenian GEDmatch results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 45.62
2 East_Med 36.73
3 West_Med 10.40
4 North_Atlantic 2.68
5 Red_Sea 1.70
6 Baltic 1.68


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Armenian @ 8.897806
2 Georgian_Jewish @ 12.071830
3 Kurdish @ 13.291119
4 Assyrian @ 15.163574
5 Georgian @ 16.889225
6 Abhkasian @ 16.910835
7 Azeri @ 17.012030
8 Iranian @ 17.099125
9 Kurdish_Jewish @ 18.830681
10 Turkish @ 18.853540
11 Iranian_Jewish @ 19.452061
12 Adygei @ 23.176718
13 Kumyk @ 23.190817
14 Ossetian @ 24.859974
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 25.007597
16 Balkar @ 25.179489
17 North_Ossetian @ 25.608473
18 Syrian @ 27.463902
19 Kabardin @ 27.473627
20 Cyprian @ 28.279076

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Abhkasian +50% Assyrian @ 7.528410


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Abhkasian +25% Armenian +25% Lebanese_Druze @ 6.836263


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Armenian + Lebanese_Druze @ 6.836263
2 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Armenian @ 7.163373
3 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 7.366630
4 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Georgian_Jewish @ 7.404930
5 Abhkasian + Armenian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 7.442034
6 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Assyrian + Lebanese_Druze @ 7.465394
7 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Assyrian @ 7.479348
8 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Assyrian + Assyrian @ 7.528410
9 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Armenian + Lebanese_Christian @ 7.581657
10 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Assyrian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 7.596445
11 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 7.675008
12 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Georgian @ 7.691582
13 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Assyrian + Iranian_Jewish @ 7.714258
14 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Armenian + Iranian_Jewish @ 7.750579
15 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Kurdish_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish @ 7.839971
16 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 7.862848
17 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Armenian + Assyrian @ 7.873266
18 Abhkasian + Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Georgian_Jewish @ 7.910179
19 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 7.923393
20 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Georgian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish @ 7.937902

Done.

Elapsed time 0.3618 seconds.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 39.08
2 East_Med 33.90
3 West_Med 12.05
4 Red_Sea 4.30
5 Baltic 4.11
6 North_Atlantic 3.92
7 South_Asian 1.63


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Armenian @ 4.270214
2 Georgian_Jewish @ 6.711814
3 Kurdish @ 9.882716
4 Assyrian @ 10.171667
5 Azeri @ 10.991624
6 Turkish @ 11.256318
7 Iranian @ 13.246704
8 Kurdish_Jewish @ 14.511189
9 Iranian_Jewish @ 15.045993
10 Georgian @ 17.974987
11 Lebanese_Muslim @ 18.701963
12 Abhkasian @ 19.363899
13 Kumyk @ 19.591888
14 Syrian @ 20.901121
15 Adygei @ 21.304380
16 Cyprian @ 22.022352
17 Balkar @ 22.824139
18 Ossetian @ 23.585289
19 Lebanese_Druze @ 23.974953
20 North_Ossetian @ 24.237272

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Abhkasian +50% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.649569


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Abhkasian +25% Cyprian +25% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.349885


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.349885
2 Assyrian + Georgian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.647412
3 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.720256
4 Abhkasian + Assyrian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.851342
5 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.883196
6 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Iranian_Jewish @ 2.896948
7 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Iranian_Jewish @ 3.008331
8 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.047149
9 Abhkasian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.058810
10 Cyprian + Georgian + Georgian + Iranian_Jewish @ 3.095488
11 Abhkasian + Armenian + Cyprian + Kurdish @ 3.146973
12 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.172007
13 Armenian + Armenian + Lebanese_Druze + North_Ossetian @ 3.182770
14 Abhkasian + Assyrian + Cyprian + Georgian @ 3.195222
15 Cyprian + Georgian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.211052
16 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian @ 3.214514
17 Assyrian + Georgian + Georgian + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.235581
18 Adygei + Armenian + Armenian + Assyrian @ 3.257378
19 Georgian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.258788
20 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.261220

Done.

Elapsed time 0.1100 seconds.



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 37.32
2 West_Asian 35.11
3 West_Med 12.89
4 Red_Sea 6.66
5 North_Atlantic 4.30
6 South_Asian 2.57


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Armenian @ 5.102992
2 Assyrian @ 5.133976
3 Georgian_Jewish @ 5.274460
4 Kurdish_Jewish @ 8.862662
5 Iranian_Jewish @ 9.747756
6 Turkish @ 11.535282
7 Azeri @ 12.962583
8 Kurdish @ 13.051708
9 Lebanese_Muslim @ 13.166349
10 Iranian @ 15.129173
11 Syrian @ 15.639550
12 Cyprian @ 17.155727
13 Lebanese_Druze @ 18.337847
14 Lebanese_Christian @ 18.862194
15 Jordanian @ 20.455236
16 Samaritan @ 20.596195
17 Palestinian @ 22.350746
18 Georgian @ 23.959465
19 Kumyk @ 25.095169
20 Abhkasian @ 25.286518

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian +50% Assyrian @ 2.744519


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian +25% Armenian +25% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.776406


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Lebanese_Druze @ 1.776406
2 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.966815
3 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.299085
4 Abhkasian + Armenian + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.395745
5 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.421097
6 Armenian + Armenian + Assyrian + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.570659
7 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Samaritan @ 2.616032
8 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian @ 2.631138
9 Armenian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.670997
10 Armenian + Armenian + Kurdish + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.673172
11 Abhkasian + Armenian + Cyprian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.676686
12 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Syrian @ 2.692640
13 Armenian + Armenian + Assyrian + Assyrian @ 2.744519
14 Armenian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.780149
15 Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish @ 2.807739
16 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.833533
17 Abhkasian + Armenian + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.839400
18 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Palestinian @ 2.868833
19 Armenian + Armenian + Assyrian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.903894
20 Abhkasian + Armenian + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.905004

Done.

Elapsed time 0.0771 seconds.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 35.92
2 West_Asian 35.06
3 West_Med 12.47
4 Red_Sea 8.28
5 North_Atlantic 3.31
6 South_Asian 2.36
7 Baltic 2.21


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Georgian_Jewish @ 3.491839
2 Assyrian @ 5.178648
3 Armenian @ 5.372820
4 Kurdish_Jewish @ 8.889257
5 Iranian_Jewish @ 9.872353
6 Turkish @ 10.692588
7 Azeri @ 11.872606
8 Kurdish @ 12.155324
9 Lebanese_Muslim @ 13.206900
10 Iranian @ 13.926917
11 Syrian @ 15.166453
12 Cyprian @ 17.548542
13 Lebanese_Druze @ 19.063873
14 Lebanese_Christian @ 19.211250
15 Jordanian @ 20.165367
16 Samaritan @ 20.734781
17 Palestinian @ 22.215439
18 Georgian @ 23.081085
19 Kumyk @ 23.741743
20 Abhkasian @ 24.563726

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Georgian +50% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.565986


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Assyrian +25% Georgian +25% Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.791123


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Armenian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish + Samaritan @ 1.396619
2 Cyprian + Georgian + Georgian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish @ 1.420761
3 Armenian + Georgian + Iranian_Jewish + Samaritan @ 1.517194
4 Armenian + Assyrian + Georgian + Samaritan @ 1.537081
5 Armenian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 1.554269
6 Assyrian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.641988
7 Cyprian + Georgian + Georgian_Jewish + Iranian_Jewish @ 1.654194
8 Assyrian + Georgian + Georgian_Jewish + Samaritan @ 1.654663
9 Assyrian + Cyprian + Georgian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 1.663456
10 Armenian + Georgian + Iranian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 1.700886
11 Armenian + Georgian + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.786787
12 Assyrian + Assyrian + Georgian + Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.791123
13 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish @ 1.803646
14 Abhkasian + Armenian + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.805847
15 Assyrian + Georgian + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 1.809656
16 Armenian + Assyrian + Georgian + Lebanese_Christian @ 1.861133
17 Abhkasian + Assyrian + Cyprian + Kurdish_Jewish @ 1.879663
18 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim @ 1.905881
19 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish + Iranian_Jewish @ 1.932848
20 Assyrian + Cyprian + Georgian + Iranian_Jewish @ 1.970141

Done.

Elapsed time 0.0798 seconds.

Joe B
08-09-2018, 05:17 AM
I think you are also forgetting that a large portion of Eastern Turkey (where Armenians inhabited) technically lies within the Caucasus as well. Armenians are not some population from Anatolia and Mesopotamia with no historical connections to the Caucasus mountains, a large portion of them have inhabited the caucasus for ages. Modern day Armenia is not simply a "creation to give people who were evacuated from their homelands a new homeland." Modern day Armenia was also a part of historical Armenia, too. And much of the parts of Turkey where Armenians come from lies within the ranges of the Caucasus as well. Armenians are definitely a Caucasian people - both historically and genetically.
Armenians have corrected me when I referred to Armenia being in the Caucuses. The Armenian Highlands is preferred.

Dmitry
08-09-2018, 04:27 PM
Armenians have corrected me when I referred to Armenia being in the Caucuses. The Armenian Highlands is preferred.

Most of the Armenian Highlands is within the Caucasus though, lol.

Joe B
08-09-2018, 08:34 PM
Most of the Armenian Highlands is within the Caucasus though, lol. The Armenian Highlands include the Lesser Caucuses, but not the Greater Caucuses. There is a distinct geographical difference.

Asrafael.
08-10-2018, 01:36 AM
Armenians are not really Caucasian strictu sensu in regards to genetics. Alot of their similarity is also the result of Bronze Age Balkan -> Urartu migration of the proto-Armen and subsequent merger between them and a likely heavily Caucasian population - that is, going off Chalcolithic Armenian samples, but depending on whether the Hurro-Urartians and Urartians in particular were Mesopotamian-like or not.

As such, what the Urartians (and Hurro-Urartians in general) were like is of upmost importance to this question tbh, as they likely originated from the southern flank of the Caucasus themselves and they may have been similar Kura-Araxes samples and unlike the Maykop steppe of the northern steppe of the Caucasus lowlands - Pontic steppe.

Also - while it is most likely that Armenian has a Hurro-Urartian substrate - the closeness between Urartian and Hurrian (being as they only diverged from 4-3,500 ybp) suggests that they may have actually been at some level of incomplete divergence when they influenced proto- or early Armenian along with Mittani.

A eastern Anatolian homeland - or upon further inspection of Minnanean and classifying it as a seperate Hurrro-Urartian language, a Lake Van homeland - is likely for the Hurro-Urartians. Influence from the early lects of Northeast Caucasian languages to the proto-Hurro-Urartian in the Lake Van - Erivan area is entirely plausible, and later assimilation of early para-Kartevelian or proto-Kartevelian speakers just north of the Zagros - as the Kartevalians may have a Mesopotamian/Anatolia origin (as the southward shift of Georgians and Abkhazians and Svans towards Mesopotamia relative to the Northeast & Northwest Caucasian peoples in PCA's may also point to)

We need some analysis to see whether the southward shift of Kartvelians may be due to simply having missed Makyop Steppe admix like the NW Caucasians and NE Caucasians clearly had and being endemic genetic rememnants of a once more Mesopotamian-like (CHG-enriched) pre-historic Caucasus as we already know was the case from.the Maykop paper - or a mix of being both endemic remenants of an more Mesopotamian Caucasus + Mesopotamian (and/or Anatolian) gene flow as the reconstruction of farming terminology in early Kartivelian (and possibly proto?) points to. We already see Anatolian farmer gene flow into the Caucasus, in addition to knowing that a Iran Chl-CHG - Anatolian farmer continum existing to the direct south of the Caucasus with it's direct heart in historic Armenia. It may be Kartivelian, and NE Caucasian and even NW Caucasian having an origin somewhere along the breadth of the Anatolian farmer - Iran Chl + CHG continuum with a Caucasian CHG substrate. This perfectly makes sense of the fact that proto-NE Caucasian, and possibly proto-Kartivelian and proto-NW Caucasian all had farming terminology and likley originated with farming peoples. Anatolian farmers and Iran Chl farmers (or various stages of hybridized Anatolian - Iranian farmers) inhabiting the arc from Northern Iran (BMAC) to Lake Van and eastern Anatolia. Folks like those at Arslantepe.

A northward migration of these proto-Kartivelian (or pre-proto-Kartivelian) and ancestral NW Caucasian and NE Caucasian speaking Anatolian - Iranian farmers from Northern Iran - eastern Anatolia into the CHG strongholds of the Caucasus could explain alot about Armenians and their affinity to the Caucasus folk.

It also seems in the last 100 years - primarily as a result of the Armenian genocide - Armenians likley became much more Mesopotamian-shifted. The ones who beared the brunt of the Young Turks and allies targated genocides were likely ones more similar to the Chalcolithic Armenians who were very north-shifted and had heavy EHG and other intrusive elements. In fact - these Chalcolithic samples from Chalcolithic Armenia look like a NE Caucasian population with a heavy European ad-strata.

Compare that to contemporary Armenians who look eerily similar to Anatolian Assyrians (which could be due to intermarriage with Armenians) - and it's likely that a complete or at least heavy-to-significant replacement must have taken place in Armenia. Whether it was more recent or because of other factors involved in the earlier Armenian ethnogenises I don't know.

But it must be emphasised nonetheless that contemporary Armenians are a transitional people on the fault between the southern Caucasus and Mesopotamia. Which is exactly why they cluster with Caucasian Jewish populations who mostly have backgrounds in Babylonian Jewry.

And to be fair in my earlier comparison of Assyrians with Armenians - Assyrians are ridicously north-shifted compared to what you would expect of a Semitic and even Mesopotamian population (which geographically makes sense - look where the Nineveh plains are located).

The significant Steppe + minor Euro input in the Lebanese (especially Muslims) also miscontrues things as I also believe that Lebanese Christians have significant Armenian ancestry - as alot of the Armenian community there have been assimilated into Arab society.

Also - going off the prescence of both Bronze Age and more recent Armenian-associated lineages in Mesopotamia and the Levant - and even amongst Arabians - I think that there were several waves of Armenian-related migrations into Mesopotamia, the Levant, and Arabia that make things even more complicated in the quest towards answering this question. Ydna like I2c2 and E-V13's E-Y16729 sub-clade look to have spread with migrations originating or passing through the Armenian plateau and disintegrated once they arrived in Mesopotamia and the Levant - and probably spread from there into Arabia by tacking onto the early Arab migrations into the Hijaz and Dilmun from their Jordanian steppe homelands. Then there is the Bronze Age Armenian affinity amongst all Levantine populations and even northern Arabians to an extent - which I will also.tentatively chalk up to the aforementioned migrations.

Sikeliot
08-10-2018, 02:16 AM
It also seems in the last 100 years - primarily as a result of the Armenian genocide - Armenians likley became much more Mesopotamian-shifted. The ones who beared the brunt of the Young Turks and allies targated genocides were likely ones more similar to the Chalcolithic Armenians who were very north-shifted and had heavy EHG and other intrusive elements. In fact - these Chalcolithic samples from Chalcolithic Armenia look like a NE Caucasian population with a heavy European ad-strata.

Should it not have been the other way around? The Armenians who were genocided were mostly those who lived in eastern Turkey, who would have belonged to the western Armenian branches. I cannot imagine these people were those with more Caucasus or even NE European input.



The significant Steppe + minor Euro input in the Lebanese (especially Muslims) also miscontrues things as I also believe that Lebanese Christians have significant Armenian ancestry - as alot of the Armenian community there have been assimilated into Arab society.


I am more likely to attribute this to Crusades/Norman ancestry. The European input in the Lebanese is small, no more than 5% but where it exists it is higher in Muslims, and I find it difficult to imagine Armenians assimilating in Lebanon would have assimilated into the Muslim, rather than the Christian, population. Christian Lebanese have no European ancestry.

Asrafael.
08-10-2018, 02:58 AM
I meant to say that the Armenians assimilated into Lebanese Christian society.

I am definetely aware that the French-like signal in Lebanon is strong in Lebanese Muslims as oppossed to Christians.

I never connected most of the Steppe in the Lebanese to the Armenians - but to movements like the Mitanni which brought R1a-Z93 F1345 to the Levant.

As for Armenians - it was all conjecture. The Armenians south of Lake Van and to the east of Kus and Sivas and Deir Ezzor death triangle did suffer somewhat less in comparison to those more towards the Trebizond and towards central Anatolia. I would have assumed those to have been more Caucasus-shifted (Georgian-like) whislt not to the degree of Trebizond Greeks and Turks of course.

I had in mind to look (in vain) for Armenian kits from Nagorno-Karabakh, but realized that most Armenians there today may have migrated from Iran and other regions and don't represent the old Armenian population of that region who form a minority in that region?.

One way one can do things is by doing an alle sharing analysis between Armenians and Azeris and mask the later admix in Azeris to get an idea of what the original Armenians of the southeastern Caucasus were like.

There are Armenians in Georgia - I think they may be relics of what I had in mind for a more Caucasian-shifted Armenian pop of eastern Anatolia since many did flee from western Armenia into already Armenian muncipalities in Georgia.

Besides - most diaspora in the Middle East are bound to be from eastern Armenia. Several Armenians I know in the Arab countries have told me of eastern Anatolian origins.

I don't know of any kits however. If someone could share the kit of an Armenian from Nagorno-Karabakh, Georgia, or in the Middle Eastern diaspora - it would be great.

Helves
08-10-2018, 03:06 PM
Compare that to contemporary Armenians who look eerily similar to Anatolian Assyrians (which could be due to intermarriage with Armenians) - and it's likely that a complete or at least heavy-to-significant replacement must have taken place in Armenia. Whether it was more recent or because of other factors involved in the earlier Armenian ethnogenises I don't know.

But it must be emphasised nonetheless that contemporary Armenians are a transitional people on the fault between the southern Caucasus and Mesopotamia. Which is exactly why they cluster with Caucasian Jewish populations who mostly have backgrounds in Babylonian Jewry.

And to be fair in my earlier comparison of Assyrians with Armenians - Assyrians are ridicously north-shifted compared to what you would expect of a Semitic and even Mesopotamian population (which geographically makes sense - look where the Nineveh plains are located).
Armenians show far more variation than Assyrians auDNA wise. Assyrians who have not lived close to Armenians like those from Northern Iraq are genetically no different than other Assyrians. Western Armenians on the other hand often get Assyrian as first population with Gedmatch and differ quite significantly from Eastern Armenians. Assyrians also are closer to other Eastern Aramaic speakers such as the Kurdish Jews and Mandeans than to Armenians.
Also since when is Iran_N/CHG inpit considered Northern?

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 04:24 PM
Should it not have been the other way around? The Armenians who were genocided were mostly those who lived in eastern Turkey, who would have belonged to the western Armenian branches. I cannot imagine these people were those with more Caucasus or even NE European input.

It's exactly that. A study on Armenians that came out in late 2015 showed that there are two separate clusters of Armenians - Western Armenians (from the Eastern Anatolia area) and Eastern Armenians (present day Armenia). They found in their study that only 33% of modern-day Armenians belong to the Western Armenian cluster, while 67% of modern-day Armenians belong to the Eastern Armenian cluster.




Armenians are not really Caucasian strictu sensu in regards to genetics. Alot of their similarity is also the result of Bronze Age Balkan -> Urartu migration of the proto-Armen and subsequent merger between them and a likely heavily Caucasian population - that is, going off Chalcolithic Armenian samples, but depending on whether the Hurro-Urartians and Urartians in particular were Mesopotamian-like or not.

Why do studies seem to suggest the opposite then? All studies on Caucasian populations - including Armenians, have concluded that Armenians have remained relatively isolated since the Bronze-age and have suggested that Mesoptamian like admixture in Caucasian populations is ancient and predates the formation of modern day ethnic groups. Mesoptamian like admixture existed in many ancient North Caucasian cultures such as the Maykop (with the exception of the Maykop from the steppe, which was Yamnaya-like but with excess steppe) and Kura-Araxes seem to resemble modern Armenians and Georgians very well.


Our results show that at the time of the eponymous grave mound of Maykop, the North Caucasus piedmont region was genetically connected to the south. Even without direct ancient DNA data from northern Mesopotamia, the new genetic evidence suggests an increased assimilation of Chalcolithic individuals from Iran, Anatolia and Armenia and those of the Eneolithic Caucasus during 6000-4000 calBCE23, and thus likely also intensified cultural connections. Within this sphere of interaction, it is possible that cultural influences and continuous subtle gene flow from the south formed the basis of Maykop (Fig. 4; Supplementary Table 10). In fact, the Maykop phenomenon was long understood as the terminus of the expansion of South Mesopotamian civilisations in the 4th millennium BCE11, 12, 51 562 . It has been further suggested that along with the cultural and demographic influence the key
technological innovations that had revolutionised the late 4th 564 millennium BCE in western Asia had ultimately also spread to Europe52 . An earlier connection in the late 5th millennium BCE, however, allows speculations about an alternative archaeological scenario: was the cultural exchange mutual and did e.g. metal rich areas such as the Caucasus contribute substantially to the development and transfer of these innovations.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/16/322347.full.pdf


I never connected most of the Steppe in the Lebanese to the Armenians - but to movements like the Mitanni which brought R1a-Z93 F1345 to the Levant.

Steppe ancestry in the Lebanese is quite negligble.

NarLFC
10-05-2018, 12:47 AM
I think you are also forgetting that a large portion of Eastern Turkey (where Armenians inhabited) technically lies within the Caucasus as well. Armenians are not some population from Anatolia and Mesopotamia with no historical connections to the Caucasus mountains, a large portion of them have inhabited the caucasus for ages. Modern day Armenia is not simply a "creation to give people who were evacuated from their homelands a new homeland." Modern day Armenia was also a part of historical Armenia, too. And much of the parts of Turkey where Armenians come from lies within the ranges of the Caucasus as well. Armenians are definitely a Caucasian people - both historically and genetically.

Can you possibly show me studies that highlight these genetic differences? Maybe some PCA plots and Gedmatch results? Most genetic tests from Armenians that I've seen seemingly has a western Armenian bias. I understand that there are 3 main clusters of Armenians: eastern, western and cherkessohay(circassia) yet I think most of what Gedmatch has isn't representative of the genetic reality and differences of the Armenians.

NarLFC
11-25-2018, 10:53 AM
I'd still like to learn more about our genetic variation

NarLFC
04-09-2019, 09:39 AM
As we know, Armenia was historically much larger, and mostly further south, than it is today. Modern "Armenia" is a small sliver of the land on which Armenians used to live, and is the northernmost extent of their historical land.

Therefore, it makes sense that many people living in Armenia today, have ancestry originating much further south. Armenia was essentially created to give a homeland to people who had been pushed out of, and ethnically cleansed from, their native homelands. Therefore, it is likely that many Armenians are genetically not so much "Caucasian" but much closer to their Arab and Persian neighbors from further south, as well as to Pontic Greeks.

Does anyone have examples of Armenian GEDMatch results? Are there Armenians who could be genetically mistaken for, or could be considered a subset of, a Levantine population? What about the other end of the spectrum? Or are most closer to Iranians and Afghans?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/turkey-armenia.gif

With all due respect, this is an ignorant thing to claim Sik. Modern day Armenia+Artsakh has always been inhabited by Armenians since time immemorial. My roots lie in Armenia today. "Armenia" as you so eloquently put, was not some mere shelter that the current inhabitants decided to occupy to escape Turkish onslaught. No sir. As a matter of fact Armenia already had a population of 1 million people during the events of the Armenian genocide, and this isn't counting the Armenians that formed a majority in Tbilisi who also lived under the Russian empire. Modern day Armenia is predominantly comprised of natives with a minority that can trace most of their roots to western Armenia. The majority of the descendants of western Armenians in fact live in the diasporas of the west(USA, France) and some in the middle east ie Lebanon and Syria.

Also, if you pay attention to that map then you will realize that modern day Armenia, and the historical Armenian cities of Ani, Artvin and Ardahan(modern day northeast Turkey) comprise a significant chunk of the historical Armenian homeland(that's at least 40%). So no, your conjectures are very incorrect my friend.

NarLFC
11-18-2019, 11:14 AM
As we know, Armenia was historically much larger, and mostly further south, than it is today. Modern "Armenia" is a small sliver of the land on which Armenians used to live, and is the northernmost extent of their historical land.

Therefore, it makes sense that many people living in Armenia today, have ancestry originating much further south. Armenia was essentially created to give a homeland to people who had been pushed out of, and ethnically cleansed from, their native homelands. Therefore, it is likely that many Armenians are genetically not so much "Caucasian" but much closer to their Arab and Persian neighbors from further south, as well as to Pontic Greeks.

Does anyone have examples of Armenian GEDMatch results? Are there Armenians who could be genetically mistaken for, or could be considered a subset of, a Levantine population? What about the other end of the spectrum? Or are most closer to Iranians and Afghans?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/turkey-armenia.gif

Armenian_East custom average. I've compiled around 60 kits for this one.

North Sea - 2.71
Atlantic - 4.19
Baltic - 2.07
E. Euro - 3.12
W. Med - 6.86
W. Asian - 38.46
E. Med - 33.67
Red Sea - 5.49
S. Asian - 2.99


Armenian_West. I used around 20 kits for this one

North Sea - 2.3
Atlantic - 4.06
Baltic - 1.98
E. Euro - 2.29
W. Med - 8.91
W. Asian - 36.25
E. Med - 35.69
Red Sea - 5.69
S. Asian - 2.39

Armenian_East custom oracle

[1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
[2,] "Armenian_West" "3.8043"
[3,] "Turk_East" "4.2229"
[4,] "Greek_Trabzon" "5.0788"
[5,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "7.1033"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.3238"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.5509"
[8,] "Georgian_Jewish" "8.778"
[9,] "Georgian_Laz" "9.1589"
[10,] "Azerbaijani" "9.9119"
[11,] "Assyrian" "10.9748"
[12,] "Turkish_Kayseri" "10.9751"
[13,] "Iranian_Lur" "10.9865"
[14,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "11.0845"
[15,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "13.2337"
[16,] "Turkish_Adana" "13.9202"
[17,] "Iranian_Persian" "14.4605"
[18,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "16.8931"
[19,] "Kurdish_Jew" "16.9748"
[20,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "18.5189"

Armenian_East mixedmode

[1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
[2,] "80.7% Turk_East + 19.3% Kurdish_Jew" "1.1681"
[3,] "73% Turk_East + 27% Assyrian" "1.2575"
[4,] "68.4% Turk_East + 31.6% Georgian_Jewish" "1.3112"
[5,] "53.1% Armenian_West + 46.9% Turk_East" "1.5958"
[6,] "86.9% Turk_East + 13.1% Iraqi_Jew" "1.6545"
[7,] "83.4% Turk_East + 16.6% Iranian_Jew" "1.6857"
[8,] "70.1% Turk_Meskhetian + 29.9% Druze" "1.7071"
[9,] "86.3% Armenian_West + 13.7% Georgian" "1.7911"
[10,] "12.1% Adygei + 87.9% Armenian_West" "1.8118"
[11,] "87.1% Turk_East + 12.9% Druze" "1.8136"
[12,] "76.6% Armenian_West + 23.4% Turk_Meskhetian" "1.8355"
[13,] "49.7% Turk_Meskhetian + 50.3% Assyrian" "1.8478"
[14,] "89.7% Armenian_West + 10.3% Chechen" "1.8538"
[15,] "11.7% Abhkasian + 88.3% Armenian_West" "1.8766"
[16,] "83.6% Armenian_West + 16.4% Azeri_Dagestan" "1.9199"
[17,] "48.9% Georgian_Laz + 51.1% Georgian_Jewish" "1.9206"
[18,] "44% Turk_Meskhetian + 56% Georgian_Jewish" "1.9319"
[19,] "89.1% Armenian_West + 10.9% Lezgin" "1.9494"
[20,] "89% Armenian_West + 11% Ossetian" "1.9575"

Armenian_West oracle

[1,] "Armenian_West" "0"
[2,] "Armenian_East" "3.8043"
[3,] "Greek_Trabzon" "3.8226"
[4,] "Georgian_Jewish" "6.5036"
[5,] "Turk_East" "7.3631"
[6,] "Assyrian" "8.0883"
[7,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "8.5406"
[8,] "Kurd_Armenia" "9.9347"
[9,] "Turkish_Kayseri" "10.5096"
[10,] "Kurd" "10.9183"
[11,] "Azerbaijani" "11.5051"
[12,] "Georgian_Laz" "11.6612"
[13,] "Iranian_Lur" "12.371"
[14,] "Turkish_Adana" "13.0802"
[15,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "14.2637"
[16,] "Kurdish_Jew" "14.3166"
[17,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "15.4299"
[18,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "15.5837"
[19,] "Iranian_Persian" "16.162"
[20,] "Iranian_Jew" "17.1566"

Armenian_West mixedmode

[1,] "Armenian_West" "0"
[2,] "85.2% Armenian_East + 14.8% Greek_Cypriot" "1.0717"
[3,] "57.9% Turk_Meskhetian + 42.1% Lebanese_Christian" "1.2236"
[4,] "63.9% Greek_Trabzon + 36.1% Georgian_Jewish" "1.3079"
[5,] "85% Armenian_East + 15% Lebanese_Christian" "1.6212"
[6,] "40.6% Georgian_Laz + 59.4% Assyrian" "1.8246"
[7,] "70.2% Greek_Trabzon + 29.8% Assyrian" "1.8633"
[8,] "42.8% Turkish_Trabzon + 57.2% Georgian_Jewish" "1.8904"
[9,] "73.2% Turk_East + 26.8% Lebanese_Christian" "1.9082"
[10,] "88.4% Armenian_East + 11.6% Samaritan" "1.9768"
[11,] "52.5% Turk_East + 47.5% Assyrian" "1.9806"
[12,] "66.4% Georgian_Laz + 33.6% Druze" "2.034"
[13,] "57.4% Georgian_Laz + 42.6% Lebanese_Muslim" "2.0697"
[14,] "71.1% Armenian_East + 28.9% Assyrian" "2.1089"
[15,] "40.9% Abhkasian + 59.1% Lebanese_Christian" "2.1426"
[16,] "62.9% Georgian_Laz + 37.1% Lebanese_Christian" "2.1485"
[17,] "65.1% Turkish_Trabzon + 34.9% Lebanese_Muslim" "2.1598"
[18,] "87.9% Armenian_East + 12.1% Druze" "2.161"
[19,] "83.3% Armenian_East + 16.7% Lebanese_Muslim" "2.2144"
[20,] "48.5% Turkish_Trabzon + 51.5% Assyrian" "2


I have yet to update Greek_Central_Anatolia, East and West Georgia as well so the oracle might be noticeably different once I get my hands on some kits of the aformentioned groups.

Kurdistani
09-06-2020, 04:12 AM
Hi which project is this in gedmatch?