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Gwydion
08-08-2018, 10:08 PM
In your opinion are the Scots, taken as a whole and including characteristics such as culture, history, music, appearance, genetics, etc., closer and more similar to Ireland or England? I ask this not just in a modern sense but taken their known histories and deep origin as well. It might be easy to say just say "West/Isles more like Ireland and Lowlands, particularly Lothian, more like England" but if we take all Scots as a whole?

Could it be said that the Scots may be seen in a sense as the midway or intermediary between Irish and English in relation the above categories?

sktibo
08-10-2018, 01:29 AM
I see them as slightly closer to Ireland than England as a whole but it really depends on the region of Scotland in question.. But to stay within the confines of your question, one relevant point in the category of genetics is that on the PCA graphs most Scots sampled are between England and Ireland with some close to the north of England and some very close to Ireland. I suppose this averages out near the middle.

JerryS.
08-10-2018, 01:32 AM
a bit of Scandinavian was mixed in with the Scots almost as much as the English. not so for the Irish. but the Germans mixed in with the English a lot, not so with the Scots or Irish.

Gwydion
08-10-2018, 01:55 AM
Well mulling over history and culture, on the Irish side there is the very name "Scot" and "Scotland", the claimed Dal Riadic origin of the kingdom, being part of a pan-Gaelic world for at least a few centuries across most of Scotland and even longer in the Western Isles, a common medieval Church, the common identity espoused by Bruce and Arbroath , the common medieval enemy of England, both sharing similar myths about the Fianna, a traditional/folk music with much shared and in common, etc. Many of the popular or Romanticized icons of Scottishness, such as tartan, the Great Highland Bagpipe tradition, the idea of the clan, etc. are more similar with the Irish than English.

On the other hand, there is with England a shared Brythonic past, the Anglicization of the Lowlands, a greater participation in the Anglo-Norman chivalric world of knights, heraldry, etc., the common Protestant heritage, being bound together politically since the Union of the Crowns, a shared heritage of the British Empire, etc.

Going by phenotype I can't really say, but the Scottish stereotype of a pale ginger is generally equivalent to the Irish stereotype of same.

In regards to the Scandinavian input, I am not sure what Ireland's is but the difference between Scotland and England seems to be that Scotland's was predominately Norwegian and lesser Danish while England's was more Danish and lesser Norwegian.

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 02:26 AM
South Scots and Northern Irish cluster very close together, and they form the genetic bridge between the Great Britain and Ireland. With the exception of Ulster-Scots, I would say that Scotland shares more culture and history with the English. Both spoke Britonnic languages originally, both received Anglo-Norman influence, Protestant religion, and the British empire. That being said, I am not too familiar with the shared history of Scotland and Ireland, so I could be wrong. I am very interested in the British Isles in general, and would like to learn more about cultures there.

sktibo
08-10-2018, 05:19 AM
South Scots and Northern Irish cluster very close together, and they form the genetic bridge between the Great Britain and Ireland. With the exception of Ulster-Scots, I would say that Scotland shares more culture and history with the English. Both spoke Britonnic languages originally, both received Anglo-Norman influence, Protestant religion, and the British empire. That being said, I am not too familiar with the shared history of Scotland and Ireland, so I could be wrong. I am very interested in the British Isles in general, and would like to learn more about cultures there.

while the west of Scotland had strong connections to Ireland from prehistory to recent times, (and I'm sure many would argue these connections are still somewhat in place) the rest of the country with the possible exception of SE Scotland also have historic ties to the Gaelic world. When the kingdom of Scotland was formed Gaelic was the official language and many if not most place names in the country have Gaelic ties. Of course the Norse Danes Normans and I think especially the Angles (who brought Scots language) had a big impact, these mixed with the Gaelic culture (which had itself mixed with Brythonic and Pictish cultures in some areas)

So you've got an Insular Celtic base with a dominant Gaelic culture and then later a Continental largely Germanic culture gains a foothold there. In some areas the genetic connection is closer to England but there is always a pull towards Ireland, and often a small pull towards Scandinavia too. IMO this mixing of cultures and peoples while still on top of a very Celtic foundation is what makes Scotland so easy to love for so many of us

Here's a quick and dirty summary about Scotland's place names: https://www.stga.co.uk/see-do/cities-towns/scottish-place-names

Asrafael.
08-10-2018, 05:44 AM
I wrote this answer on a related subject on the r/AskHistorians sub on Reddit a few years back - on the question "Was there an Irish equivalent to the Scottish Highland clans during the 18th century?":

The pre-plantation Ulster Irish are as close as you get in Ireland to the Highland Scottish society. The Ulster Irish and clans dwelt in the area of present day Northern Ireland, and were regarded as being a sort of backwater and very conservative region and population in Ireland. The Ulster dialect is also closest to the Scottish Gaelic tongue [1], and the Scottish Gaels themselves have their origins from this region wherein they diffused and spread out from western Scotland and highlands and throughout the present day country.

To better explain the strong ties between Ulster Ireland and Highland Scotland - and Scotland in general - I'll give a brief outline of the ancient connections and history between the two respective regions.

It all began with the migration of Irish from Ulster - historically and anciently named 'Ulaid' - to the western seaboard of present-day Scotland. These Ulaid Irish - ancestral Ulster Irish - began migrations and settlement of the western Scottish seaboard during the 1st half of the 1st millennium BCE. The centre of settlement of the Ulaid Irish settlers is ascertained to be present-day Argyll, Scotland [2].

During this early period, present-day Scotland was largely inhabited by a Brythonic Celtic people referred to as the Picts. The Picts were mostly related to in culture, language, and of same origin with the other Brythonic Celts such as the the ancestors of the present-day Welsh and Cornish, and other Britons [3] [4].

Prior to the Ulaid Irish migrations, all of Britain was inhabited by Brythonic Celts, one of the major branches of the Celtic peoples alongside the Gaelic Celts. Scotland itself was mostly Pictish, with other non-Pictish Brythonic Celts probably inhabiting the more southerly reaches, and perhaps, most of the lowlands as well.

As such, the Ulaid Irish settlers were amongst the first Gaelic Celts present in Britain. The Ulaid Irish settlers in western Scotland also brought with them their Old Irish tongue, and their Scottish settlements in Argyll and western Scotland formed a westernmost extension of the Ulaid Irish subkingdom of Dal Raida, making Dal Raida and the larger and encompassing Kingdom of Ulaid a kingdoms of two Isles encompassing Dal Raida's holdings of County Antrim in northern Ireland (Ulaid), and Argyllshire in western Scotland [6].

Historically and traditionally up until the plantation period, the Ulaid Irish and their descendant Ulster Irish were defined by their adherence to a significant degree of pastoralism and transhumance [7]. This pastoralist tradition persisted up until the plantation period, and formed an integral part of Ulaid and later Ulster Irish life [7]. The importance of cattle in early Ulaid Irish and Irish society and the subsequent settlement of western Scotland by the earlier Ulaid Irish may have led to a spread and/or resurgence of pastoral transhumance in the Highlands which may have not been as present in the Brythonic Pictish period.

After initial Ulaid Irish settlement of Argyll and the western Scottish archipelago and coast, strong seaborne cultural and ethnic connections were maintained by extensive seaborne contact. The Ulaid Irish settlers and the kingdom of Dal Raida had begun to become dominant and exude power from their bastion in western Scotland. The Old Irish brought by the Ulaid Irish settlers had also started to diverge from Irish as the descendants of the Ulaid Irish, the Scottish Gaels, began assimilating the Brythonic Celtic Picts. The merger of Picts and Scottish Gaelic peoples as the Gaels expanded from the western seaboard and into the Highlands and lowlands and eastward continued up until the 12th CE, by which time the Picts were like to have been completely forgotten and fully assimilated by the Scottish Gaels.

The assimilation of large numbers of Brythonic Celts - mostly Picts - by Scottish Gaels resulted in a heavy shift in the grammatical syntax and verbiage of the Old Irish-descended Scottish Gaelic from its Gaelic origins and increasingly came to towards resembling the Brythonic Celtic languages in many ways [8].

Later on the Kingdom of Alba is formed with a final merger of Gaelicized Pictish aristocracy and Gaelic Scots, and present-day Scotland is dominated by Gaelic-speakers. Sustained contact between Ulster Ireland and the Kingdom of Alba (Scotland) continues. Marriages between notables from both shores were somewhat common.

Another very important set of points I should have raised earlier is the clans and kinship ties between the Ulster/Ulaid Irish clans and the Scottish Highland clans. The most important point being how genealogies of many Highland clans claim origins from Ulaid Irish clans and other non-Ulaid Irish persons, such as Niall of the nine hostages via the O'Naills, or Ulaid ones like the Dal Raidan monarchs. Such connections likely served to strengthen the sense of kinship between the Ulster/other Irish and Highland Scots [9].

Like the Highland clans, the Ulster Irish were also very resistant to the English in comparison to their respective less-resistant countrymen [10], and both groups were inhabiting regions considered as economically lacking, less orderly, 'uncivilized', and empty [11]. Also, as happened to the Highland Scots with the Highland clearances, the Ulster Irish and their territory was targeted by the English due to their respective reputations for resistance and anti-English sentiment as well. Ulster territory was ground zero for the 'plantation' and settlement of English and Scottish protestants in Ireland, and the Ulster Irish had to be militarily subdued. The influx of protestants, as well as the allocation of Ulster Irish land to these settlers led to the displacement of the Ulster Irish, who were reduced to becoming tenants in their own land and dispossed [11]. The Ulster Irish territory became anglicized to the point where the traditional Irish tongue and especially the Ulster dialect is rarely spoken in many parts of Northern Ireland. Also a result of the Ulster plantation, protestants came to form a large portion of the population as well as give a strong British and unionist identity to present day Northern Ireland.

Also interesting to mention, the first 'Scoti' or 'Scots' recorded in Britain were the Ulaid Irish settlers. The term was also used to refer to all Irish, and later on to all Gaels. At some point it came to exclusively refer to the Scottish people as of today [12].

[1] Borsley, Robert D., and Ian G. Roberts. The Syntax of the Celtic Languages: A Comparative Perspective. Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1996.

[2] Ellis, Peter Berresford. The Celtic Revolution: A Study in Anti-imperialism. Talybont: Y Lolfa, 1985.

[3] Stafford, Pauline. A Companion to the Early Middle Ages: Britain and Ireland C.500-1100. Hoboken, NJ: Wiley-Blackwell, 2012.

[4] Lynch, Michael. The Oxford Companion to Scottish History. Oxford: Oxford U, 2011.

[5]

[6] Halpin, Andrew, and Conor Newman. Ireland: An Oxford Archaeological Guide to Sites from Earliest times to AD 1600. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2006.

[7] W., Dowling Martin. Tenant Right: Agrarian Capitalism and Traditional Agriculture in Rural Ulster, 1600-1850, 1994.

[8] Thomson, Derick S. The Companion to Gaelic Scotland. Oxford: Blackwell, 1983.

[9] Thornton, David E. Kings, Chronologies, and Genealogies: Studies in the Political History of Early Medieval Ireland and Wales. Oxford: Unit for Prosopograohical Research, Linacre College, 2003.

[10] Biagini, Emilio. Northern Ireland and Beyond: Social and Geographical Issues. Dordrecht, the Netherlands: Kluwer Academic, 1996.

[11] Kennedy, Liam, and Philip Ollerenshaw. Ulster since 1600: Politics, Economy, and Society. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2013.

[12] Ball, Martin J., and James Fife. The Celtic Languages. London: New York, 1993.

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 01:51 PM
while the west of Scotland had strong connections to Ireland from prehistory to recent times, (and I'm sure many would argue these connections are still somewhat in place) the rest of the country with the possible exception of SE Scotland also have historic ties to the Gaelic world. When the kingdom of Scotland was formed Gaelic was the official language and many if not most place names in the country have Gaelic ties. Of course the Norse Danes Normans and I think especially the Angles (who brought Scots language) had a big impact, these mixed with the Gaelic culture (which had itself mixed with Brythonic and Pictish cultures in some areas)

So you've got an Insular Celtic base with a dominant Gaelic culture and then later a Continental largely Germanic culture gains a foothold there. In some areas the genetic connection is closer to England but there is always a pull towards Ireland, and often a small pull towards Scandinavia too. IMO this mixing of cultures and peoples while still on top of a very Celtic foundation is what makes Scotland so easy to love for so many of us

Here's a quick and dirty summary about Scotland's place names: https://www.stga.co.uk/see-do/cities-towns/scottish-place-names

Wow, thanks for all that information! It was very helpful. I knew Scottish was a giant melting pot of all the different influences, but I never knew it had a celtic base.

Sikeliot
08-10-2018, 02:21 PM
I would say Scotland is more similar to northern England (Yorkshire and northward), but more similar to Ireland than to places like Kent, Essex, or East Anglia.

Genetically, western Scotland is more similar to Ireland, whereas the rest of the country is genetically closer to northern England. The only exception to this is Northern Ireland/Ulster in which many people are of direct Scottish descent. Though it should be noted that the Irish are not all that different genetically/phenotypically/culturally from the English either.

The original Celtic base of Scotland was not even Goidelic, but Brittonic similar to pre-Anglo Saxon England. The Gaelic language in Scotland was an intrusive element from neighboring Ireland. While the Irish did have significant influence on Scotland, the Scots are British first. Additionally, parts of northern England were once considered part of Scotland, such as Northumbria.

sktibo
08-10-2018, 03:46 PM
The original Celtic base of Scotland was not even Goidelic, but Brittonic similar to pre-Anglo Saxon England. The Gaelic language in Scotland was an intrusive element from neighboring Ireland. While the Irish did have significant influence on Scotland, the Scots are British first. Additionally, parts of northern England were once considered part of Scotland, such as Northumbria.

Perhaps most of Scotland was not "originally" Goidelic, but I seriously doubt the Hebrides and the Western Coast were Pictish for long if at all. Some people have suggested that a few scattered Pictish stones in these regions means these were Pictish areas but I don't personally consider that to be sufficient evidence. In the earlier time period waterways acted as connecting geographic features while mountains acted as barriers. I think it likely that the Picts inhabited most of Scotland, but the Gaels have been in the Islands and along much of the Western coast well before Dal Riata. The origin of the Gaels in what is now Scotland is something which is currently contested or uncertain, I've noticed that many people wish to attribute the Picts with being the sole indigenous peoples to Scotland but I think the Britons of the South, the Gaels in the far West and the Picts in Central, Eastern, and Northern Scotland all lay claim to indigeneity in their respective territories.

So, to say that "The original Celtic base of Scotland was not even Goidelic, but Brittonic similar to pre-Anglo Saxon England. The Gaelic language in Scotland was an intrusive element from neighboring Ireland" isn't entirely false - I don't think most of Scotland was originally Gaelic and it probably was a foreign element to most of the early Celtic peoples of Scotland - but I don't think it is exactly true either.

I haven't heard of or seen anything that indicates English Northumbria was once part of Scotland... I think I've seen it mentioned that perhaps Cumbria was for a bit but I'm not sure.. can you expand on this? what do you mean?

Gwydion
08-10-2018, 05:17 PM
Perhaps most of Scotland was not "originally" Goidelic, but I seriously doubt the Hebrides and the Western Coast were Pictish for long if at all. Some people have suggested that a few scattered Pictish stones in these regions means these were Pictish areas but I don't personally consider that to be sufficient evidence. In the earlier time period waterways acted as connecting geographic features while mountains acted as barriers. I think it likely that the Picts inhabited most of Scotland, but the Gaels have been in the Islands and along much of the Western coast well before Dal Riata. The origin of the Gaels in what is now Scotland is something which is currently contested or uncertain, I've noticed that many people wish to attribute the Picts with being the sole indigenous peoples to Scotland but I think the Britons of the South, the Gaels in the far West and the Picts in Central, Eastern, and Northern Scotland all lay claim to indigeneity in their respective territories.

So, to say that "The original Celtic base of Scotland was not even Goidelic, but Brittonic similar to pre-Anglo Saxon England. The Gaelic language in Scotland was an intrusive element from neighboring Ireland" isn't entirely false - I don't think most of Scotland was originally Gaelic and it probably was a foreign element to most of the early Celtic peoples of Scotland - but I don't think it is exactly true either.

I haven't heard of or seen anything that indicates English Northumbria was once part of Scotland... I think I've seen it mentioned that perhaps Cumbria was for a bit but I'm not sure.. can you expand on this? what do you mean?

I would agree with this. It seems quite likely that Gaelic or proto-Gaelic/Q-Celtic was in the Western Isles and likely the Rhins of Galloway or other places on the West coast for long time before the Dal Riata. Indeed many of the earliest references to the Picts in Roman records mention them in alliance with "Scoti", so even if we assume there were no permanent settlements of Gaels (which I would not agree with) they had a presence in Scotland centuries preceding the Dal Riata.

As to the Picts, they may have been different from the Britons to south for all we know, but they both seem to have been P-Celtic speakers whose main source of differentiation was the perceived Romanity of the Britons to the south. In the oldest Roman records the Caledonians are just understood as Britons, though ethnic differences were admitted between the more Iberian-like Silures in Wales and the more Germanic-like Caledonians. Some try to say Picts referred to the tribes beyond the Antoine Wall or Firth of the Forth, but then the capital of the Britons of Strathclyde was Dumbarton which lies beyond the Antoine Wall.

On Northumberland, it was not a part of Scotland but it does seem according to the POBI study that the Northumbrians represent a unique genetic cluster different from the southern English. Anyone know what this difference is?

http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/_asset/image/pobi-map-jpg.jpeg

CillKenny
08-10-2018, 06:56 PM
On the subject of Scandinavian influence in Ireland the Irish DNA Atlas study and the one published later by researchers at TCD show that Ireland has a similar connection to Norway as do the Scots. From memory I think the TCD one suggests also some weaker and further back links between lowland Scots and the people in the more south east region of Ireland.

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?n=110&p=100&a=11226

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/scientists-reveal-genetics-ireland-britain-high-resolution/

Sikeliot
08-10-2018, 06:58 PM
On the subject of Scandinavian influence in Ireland the Irish DNA Atlas study and the one published later by researchers at TCD show that Ireland has a similar connection to Norway as do the Scots. From memory I think the TCD one suggests also some weaker and further back links between lowland Scots and the people in the more south east region of Ireland.

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?n=110&p=100&a=11226

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/scientists-reveal-genetics-ireland-britain-high-resolution/

Southeast Ireland around Wexford, Kilkenny, Dublin etc. has some English also.

Phoebe Watts
08-10-2018, 07:20 PM
On Northumberland, it was not a part of Scotland but it does seem according to the POBI study that the Northumbrians represent a unique genetic cluster different from the southern English. Anyone know what this difference is?



But it was, wasn't it? The northern part of what was once Northumbria lies in modern Scotland. That area was invaded several times from all directions. Lines on maps don't reflect peoples but those brown circles do. Northumbria, like Mercia and the south-west, remained far more "British" than the south-east of England. An online search for History of Northumbria should bring up the ebb and flow of power,

spruithean
08-10-2018, 07:53 PM
I haven't heard of or seen anything that indicates English Northumbria was once part of Scotland... I think I've seen it mentioned that perhaps Cumbria was for a bit but I'm not sure.. can you expand on this? what do you mean?

The Lothians were an extension of the Northumbrian kingdom in Scotland and it is a pretty well known fact that the Angles had some settlements in this region, and even exerted some power and influence on the Picts and Gaels from their position at the Firth of Forth. Northumbria also had influence and minor settlement across the lowlands into the Galloway region (see Whithorn and nearby places.) The Kingdom of Bernicia, an early portion of Northumbria that extended north of the Kingdom of Deira into modern day southern Scotland, was founded circa 547 AD and expanded after the Battle of Degsastan in 603, some identify Degsastan to be Dawston in Berwickshire. This battle was fought between Æthelfrith of Bernicia and Áedán mac Gabráin of Dál Riata.

The Gaels were defeated in this battle, this battle was a pretty important part of northern history between the Angles and their neighbours to the north as it marked the rise of Northumbrian power to come. Oddly enough one of the individuals who led the Gaels in battle at Degsastan was Hering son of Hussa, the former Bernician king. The Angles had a rather extensive connection to the Gaelic communities it seems, when Æthelfrith died in 616 and Edwin of Deira became king of Bernicia the sons & daughters of Æthelfrith went into exile in the north, the eldest son Eanfrith went into exile amongst the Picts, where he is believed to have been the father of Talorcan mac Enfret, king of Picts while Oswald and Oswiu were fostered by the king of Dál Riata and his kin. Oswald and Oswiu converted to the Celtic Church and even spoke Gaelic, they brought the Celtic Church to Northumbria.

It was around the 970s that the King of the English granted Lothian to the King of Scots on the condition that he come to court whenever the English King or his successors wore his crown. After the Battle of Carham in 1018 did the river Tweed become the border between Scotland & England (at least on that portion of the island).

Here are some interesting reads on the subject of Angles, Gaels, Northumbria/Bernicia and Dál Riata/Pictland:

Aberlady Angles, fascinating Anglo-Saxon discovery in Aberlady, Scotland
https://aberladyangles.com/anglo-saxons/

Oswald & the Irish
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/ziegler.html

The Anglo-British Cemetery at Bamburgh
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/Bamburgh.html

What's in a name?
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/Matthews.html

Post-Severan Cramond:
http://www.heroicage.org/issues/4/Cessford.html

Bernicia/Bryneich (link was broken)
https://hefenfelth.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/lkm-berniciabryneich/

Origins of Scots
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/history-of-scots/origins/


But it was, wasn't it? The northern part of what was once Northumbria lies in modern Scotland. That area was invaded several times from all directions. Lines on maps don't reflect peoples but those brown circles do. Northumbria, like Mercia and the south-west, remained far more "British" than the south-east of England. An online search for History of Northumbria should bring up the ebb and flow of power,

It's also worth pointing out that when the Anglo-Saxons fell to the Normans in 1066, the events after 1066 have a fair number of Anglo-Saxon nobles fleeing England, some to Scotland, some to Ireland, some to Scandinavia, etc. If we check People of Medieval Scotland (POMS) and search through the database (http://db.poms.ac.uk/search/) looking for Germanic names we can find some interesting individuals living in Scotland at these times.

EDIT:

I should add we are confusing terms here, Northumbria is not quite the same as Northumberland, Northumberland an English county, Northumbria generally refers to a medieval kingdom of the north of Britain which extended south to the Humber and north to the Forth, and westward across England.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:03 PM
My father's results in various tests show interchangeably Scotland and Ireland:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15010-The-largest-Scottish-Diaspora-was-in-Poland

Gwydion
08-10-2018, 09:03 PM
But it was, wasn't it? The northern part of what was once Northumbria lies in modern Scotland. That area was invaded several times from all directions. Lines on maps don't reflect peoples but those brown circles do. Northumbria, like Mercia and the south-west, remained far more "British" than the south-east of England. An online search for History of Northumbria should bring up the ebb and flow of power,

Yea parts of Northumbria are now part of Scotland, but Northumberland the province was never appreciably part of the Scottish realm. The original Scottish kingdom of Alba initially was located above the Firth of the Forth via the union of the Scots and Picts, it was only later that Strathclyde and Lothian were integrated and conquered into Scotland.

Scotland I believe did rule what's now Cumbria in England briefly as it was part of the wider Kingdom of Strathclyde but was eventually lost to England. So strangely part of an old English kingdom (Northumbria) wound up as part of Scotland and part of an old "Scottish" (really British/Cumbric but part of a kingdom with its seat of power and cultural center in what is now Scotland) wound up as part of England.

spruithean
08-10-2018, 09:10 PM
Yea parts of Northumbria are now part of Scotland, but Northumberland the province was never appreciably part of the Scottish realm. The original Scottish kingdom of Alba initially was located above the Firth of the Forth via the union of the Scots and Picts, it was only later that Strathclyde and Lothian were integrated and conquered into Scotland.

Scotland I believe did rule what's now Cumbria in England briefly as it was part of the wider Kingdom of Strathclyde but was eventually lost to England. So strangely part of an old English kingdom (Northumbria) wound up as part of Scotland and part of an old "Scottish" (really British/Cumbric but part of a kingdom with its seat of power and cultural center in what is now Scotland) wound up as part of England.

Yes, but Phoebe had simply stated that part of Northumbria was located in Scotland, this is not the same as Northumberland. Northumberland is a modern-day county in northern England, Northumbria was a medieval kingdom in northern Britain.

In 1018 after the Battle of Carham the northern portion of Northumbria from the Tweed to the Forth was ceded to Scotland. The English king granting the Lothians to Scotland in 973 was conditional at best, Scottish king had to come to court of the English king and his successors when the crown was worn.

Gwydion
08-10-2018, 09:17 PM
Yes, but Phoebe had simply stated that part of Northumbria was located in Scotland, this is not the same as Northumberland. Northumberland is a modern-day county in northern England, Northumbria was a medieval kingdom in northern Britain.

Yes, that's what I was intending to say when I mentioned "Northumberland the province" or county as you say. Though the confusion probably started when I referred to modern people from Northumberland as Northumbrians, not sure if the modern term is the same or they are called "Northumberlanders" or maybe Geordies. :)

JonikW
08-10-2018, 10:20 PM
Interesting thread. I'll just point out that I know I have recent Armstrong Scottish Borders ancestry and consistently get Cumbria and/or Northumbria in tests. So in my case I think a Scottish signal is being interpreted as English going by modern definitions of what was once a fluid border.

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 10:53 PM
Genetically, western Scotland is more similar to Ireland, whereas the rest of the country is genetically closer to northern England. The only exception to this is Northern Ireland/Ulster in which many people are of direct Scottish descent. Though it should be noted that the Irish are not all that different genetically/phenotypically/culturally from the English either..

I think it is important to note that Western and South Scots are genetically closer to Northern Irish people (who cluster with Central Scots), not to the rest of Ireland. Northern Irish themselves have a significant genetic shift towads England, and appear to cluster in between Ireland and England, slightly shifting more towards England even. The divide between Scots genetically isn't so much East-West, rather North-South, as recent studies have identified:

https://preview.ibb.co/dnuHQp/Irish_PCA.png (https://ibb.co/eKVrkp)

Northern Irish and South Scots form the genetic bridge between Great Britain and Ireland.

https://preview.ibb.co/hQ0z5p/Irish_PCA_2.png (https://ibb.co/fMYad9)

Sikeliot
08-10-2018, 11:07 PM
I think it is important to note that Western and South Scots are genetically closer to Northern Irish people (who cluster with Central Scots), not to the rest of Ireland. Northern Irish themselves have a significant genetic shift towads England, and appear to cluster in between Ireland and England, slightly shifting more towards England even. The divide between Scots genetically isn't so much East-West, rather North-South, as recent studies have identified:

https://preview.ibb.co/dnuHQp/Irish_PCA.png (https://ibb.co/eKVrkp)

Northern Irish and South Scots form the genetic bridge between Great Britain and Ireland.

https://preview.ibb.co/hQ0z5p/Irish_PCA_2.png (https://ibb.co/fMYad9)



This is poorly labeled because what is called "Britain" should be "England". Scotland is Britain also.

But I understand what is being said here: the Scots and Ulster Irish are genetically intermediate between the rest of Ireland, and England.

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 11:15 PM
This is poorly labeled because what is called "Britain" should be "England". Scotland is Britain also.

But I understand what is being said here: the Scots and Ulster Irish are genetically intermediate between the rest of Ireland, and England.

Actually it is not poorly labeled, because in the sampling region section, it clearly lists "Scottish" and "SSC" (South-Central Scotland) as regions independent of England/Britain. Many people have historically used British and English interchangeably, and many Scots consider their nationality to be just "Scottish" as well. It is like how Puerto Ricans consider themselves Puerto Rican nationality wise, despite being part of "the United States."

Sikeliot
08-10-2018, 11:36 PM
Actually it is not poorly labeled, because in the sampling region section, it clearly lists "Scottish" and "SSC" (South-Central Scotland) as regions independent of England/Britain. Many people have historically used British and English interchangeably, and many Scots consider their nationality to be just "Scottish" as well. It is like how Puerto Ricans consider themselves Puerto Rican nationality wise, despite being part of "the United States."

What I am saying is "Britain" is not just England but also Scotland. It should say England.

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 11:51 PM
What I am saying is "Britain" is not just England but also Scotland. It should say England.

I do understand what you're saying, and you do bring up a valid point. However, most people still understand what it means. Scottish people mostly identify "Scottish" as their nationality DESPITE technically being part of "Britain." It is the same way you will never hear an Puerto Rican identfying as an "American" despite being part of the USA.

Sikeliot
08-11-2018, 12:05 AM
I do understand what you're saying, and you do bring up a valid point. However, most people still understand what it means. Scottish people mostly identify "Scottish" as their nationality DESPITE technically being part of "Britain." It is the same way you will never hear an Puerto Rican identfying as an "American" despite being part of the USA.

Most people in England identify as English first also.

Something being "understood" is not an excuse for incorrectness. Double negatives and words like "ain't" are also understood but that doesn't make it grammatically correct English and anyone using them on a school assignment would receive deductions. A professional study should absolutely not say "Britain" when they mean only England.

Dmitry
08-11-2018, 12:26 AM
Most people in England identify as English first also.

Something being "understood" is not an excuse for incorrectness. Double negatives and words like "ain't" are also understood but that doesn't make it grammatically correct English and anyone using them on a school assignment would receive deductions. A professional study should absolutely not say "Britain" when they mean only England.

You have that point of view as an American. This study was done by Europeans, not Americans.

Sikeliot
08-11-2018, 12:33 AM
You have that point of view as an American. This study was done by Europeans, not Americans.

It's Americans who say "Britain" when they mean just England: the rest of the world knows the difference.

sktibo
08-11-2018, 02:46 AM
...

English Northumbria, as in Northumberland - south of the Scottish Border - Scotland as in the Kingdom of Scotland throughout history.

I understood - or perhaps misunderstood - Sikeliot as stating that the parts of Northumbria within England as being previously part of Scotland so I wanted to verify what he meant

sktibo
08-11-2018, 02:52 AM
I would say Scotland is more similar to northern England (Yorkshire and northward), but more similar to Ireland than to places like Kent, Essex, or East Anglia.
Genetically, western Scotland is more similar to Ireland, whereas the rest of the country is genetically closer to northern England. The only exception to this is Northern Ireland/Ulster in which many people are of direct Scottish descent. Though it should be noted that the Irish are not all that different genetically/phenotypically/culturally from the English either.


Another thing that I find interesting about what you said here Sikeliot is that on the Living DNA facebook group three individuals of entirely or mostly Scottish ancestry have posted results recently showing Northumbria as their highest percentage - something they all found surprising. The common factor is that all of them had significant ancestry from Central Lowland Scotland. I also received a far too high Northumbrian percentage on my Living DNA and Central Scotland (Stirling and Lowland Perthshire) is the region where most of my father's Scottish ancestors lived. Perhaps quite a lot of Scots are closest to the Northern English. I very much hope Living DNA actually completes their Scotland project in this lifetime so we can look into this further.

spruithean
08-11-2018, 03:49 AM
English Northumbria, as in Northumberland - south of the Scottish Border - Scotland as in the Kingdom of Scotland throughout history.

I understood - or perhaps misunderstood - Sikeliot as stating that the parts of Northumbria within England as being previously part of Scotland so I wanted to verify what he meant

Fair enough, perhaps there was some misinterpretation with the terms Northumbria and Northumberland in this thread. I has understood his comment to mean that part of Northumbria extended north into Scotland.


Another thing that I find interesting about what you said here Sikeliot is that on the Living DNA facebook group three individuals of entirely or mostly Scottish ancestry have posted results recently showing Northumbria as their highest percentage - something they all found surprising. The common factor is that all of them had significant ancestry from Central Lowland Scotland. I also received a far too high Northumbrian percentage on my Living DNA and Central Scotland (Stirling and Lowland Perthshire) is the region where most of my father's Scottish ancestors lived. Perhaps quite a lot of Scots are closest to the Northern English. I very much hope Living DNA actually completes their Scotland project in this lifetime so we can look into this further.

That's quite interesting, I know there is the confused account in Historia Brittonum that seems to have recorded Penda of Mercia besieging a Northumbria stronghold at Iudeu, which is often identified as Stirling. Whether the account is true or just massive confusion in the entry it's still interesting.

Perhaps this Central Lowland similarity to Northumbria has its answer in a combination of the earlier Anglian settlers combined with the later Anglo-Normans and English speaking followers from Northern England?

Saetro
08-11-2018, 04:31 AM
This is poorly labeled because what is called "Britain" should be "England". Scotland is Britain also.

But I understand what is being said here: the Scots and Ulster Irish are genetically intermediate between the rest of Ireland, and England.

Don't think so. I think what is meant is this:
Scotland is part of Britain as Northern Ireland is part of Ireland.
Part/whole........part/whole.

Saetro
08-11-2018, 04:39 AM
Another thing that I find interesting about what you said here Sikeliot is that on the Living DNA facebook group three individuals of entirely or mostly Scottish ancestry have posted results recently showing Northumbria as their highest percentage - something they all found surprising. The common factor is that all of them had significant ancestry from Central Lowland Scotland. I also received a far too high Northumbrian percentage on my Living DNA and Central Scotland (Stirling and Lowland Perthshire) is the region where most of my father's Scottish ancestors lived. Perhaps quite a lot of Scots are closest to the Northern English. I very much hope Living DNA actually completes their Scotland project in this lifetime so we can look into this further.

One of my Scottish lines has a patronymic surname whose origins basically covers the old kingdom of Northumbria, sitting astride the Scottish border, but centred south of it.
I have related DNA links mostly with Ayrshire (perhaps where they came from most recently) and then some more distant ones into the more recently designated Northumberland, south of the border. Lots to sort out yet, but suggests possible general movement over time.

Trying to understand Scottish DNA affiliations requires a knowledge of Scottish history.
To some extent the original intention of the thread to consider Scotland as an integral whole has only brought posts that show how diverse its elements are and how little related to the borders that exist today.

The one dividing line I don't think I have seen mentioned so far is the Highland Line, which is way more important than the very porous Scotland/England border.

My origins are mixed - one Lowlander and one Highlander.
They came together and spent their lives just south of the edge of the Highland Line.
But previous generations were further onto one side or the other.
It is very real to me.

sktibo
08-11-2018, 04:48 AM
Fair enough, perhaps there was some misinterpretation with the terms Northumbria and Northumberland in this thread. I has understood his comment to mean that part of Northumbria extended north into Scotland.



That's quite interesting, I know there is the confused account in Historia Brittonum that seems to have recorded Penda of Mercia besieging a Northumbria stronghold at Iudeu, which is often identified as Stirling. Whether the account is true or just massive confusion in the entry it's still interesting.

Perhaps this Central Lowland similarity to Northumbria has its answer in a combination of the earlier Anglian settlers combined with the later Anglo-Normans and English speaking followers from Northern England?

So the Northumbria and Cumbria regions both cluster with the other Scottish regions before splitting off in the POBI. I think the Angles must be a factor in this as IIRC Stirling adopted Scots language as the main language fairly early on. I think the biggest factor is that the center of Scotland isn't sampled at all - another thing to add is that these individuals received a combination of Northumbria and either a large chunk of Aberdeenshire or NW Scotland.. So its not entirely Northumbria but that seems to be the largest factor which us unexpected but very interesting. I suspect if central Scotland actually gets sampled it will form its own region and the outlying regions will dissolve

Jessie
08-11-2018, 06:21 AM
I think it is important to note that Western and South Scots are genetically closer to Northern Irish people (who cluster with Central Scots), not to the rest of Ireland. Northern Irish themselves have a significant genetic shift towads England, and appear to cluster in between Ireland and England, slightly shifting more towards England even. The divide between Scots genetically isn't so much East-West, rather North-South, as recent studies have identified:

https://preview.ibb.co/dnuHQp/Irish_PCA.png (https://ibb.co/eKVrkp)

Northern Irish and South Scots form the genetic bridge between Great Britain and Ireland.

https://preview.ibb.co/hQ0z5p/Irish_PCA_2.png (https://ibb.co/fMYad9)

Looking at that though South Scotland (SSC) falls into the Irish cluster close to Central Leinster and North Leinster/Ulster both Gaelic Irish clusters. Also on the Irish DNA graphic it shows West Scotland and the Irish clusters to be the same.

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig3_HTML.jpg

And if you look at this there is quite an affinity between Ireland and Scotland.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/12/08/230797.DC1/230797-7.pdf

Gwydion
08-11-2018, 02:54 PM
Well since we are mentioning genetics and personal results, thought I'd share something at least I find interesting. My direct paternal line is from Scotland, but much of my father's other lines are English, so on various tests he typically plots as English. He also has minor (under 5% or so) Dutch ancestry, so this kind of makes him a bit more "Saxon/Frisian" oriented.

My mother on the other hand is predominately Irish (60-70%) and the rest is German. Genetically her German is more North German/Scandinavian-like.

Somehow when you combine them, the results typically place me in Scotland, with perhaps a bit more of a Norse-Germanic pull. So in a roundabout sort of way, through my parents admixture I've become more like what my original paternal ancestor likely would have been before coming to the United States. To exemplify, here are some of the top results I get on various calculators:


[1,] Argyll_1KG" "3.4087"
1 Orcadian @ 3.551213
1 North_German+Southwest_English @ 2.886441
1 Norwegian @ 4.286704
1 South_Dutch+Icelandic @ 4.058124
1 Icelandic @ 4.331656
1 Icelandic @ 6.000578
1 Orcadian @ 3.18496

(Obviously both Orkney and Iceland are Celto-Norse.)


On the K36 mapping I was placed in Northern Ireland at 91 and Scotland at 90. On the K15 population mapping I was placed as West Scottish tending slightly toward West Norwegian.

So perhaps going by autosomal DNA I'd be a Norse-Gael or man of the Hebrides?

Jessie
08-11-2018, 03:11 PM
Well since we are mentioning genetics and personal results, thought I'd share something at least I find interesting. My direct paternal line is from Scotland, but much of my father's other lines are English, so on various tests he typically plots as English. He also has minor (under 5% or so) Dutch ancestry, so this kind of makes him a bit more "Saxon/Frisian" oriented.

My mother on the other hand is predominately Irish (60-70%) and the rest is German. Genetically her German is more North German/Scandinavian-like.

Somehow when you combine them, the results typically place me in Scotland, with perhaps a bit more of a Norse-Germanic pull. So in a roundabout sort of way, through my parents admixture I've become more like what my original paternal ancestor likely would have been before coming to the United States. To exemplify, here are some of the top results I get on various calculators:


[1,] Argyll_1KG" "3.4087"
1 Orcadian @ 3.551213
1 North_German+Southwest_English @ 2.886441
1 Norwegian @ 4.286704
1 South_Dutch+Icelandic @ 4.058124
1 Icelandic @ 4.331656
1 Icelandic @ 6.000578
1 Orcadian @ 3.18496

(Obviously both Orkney and Iceland are Celto-Norse.)


On the K36 mapping I was placed in Northern Ireland at 91 and Scotland at 90. On the K15 population mapping I was placed as West Scottish tending slightly toward West Norwegian.

So perhaps going by autosomal DNA I'd be a Norse-Gael or man of the Hebrides?

From my experience all these populations are quite similar. I have only Irish ancestry and sktibo has looked at this as well very thoroughly so he might be able to articulate it better than me. I also get Orkney as my no 1 population on Gedmatch quite a bit. On the K16 Modern my no 1 population is Shetlandic. On the K36 mapping Orkney is 90 and Ireland 89 for me, on the K13 my no 1 population is North Dutch and on the two way mix I'm 50% Irish and 50% Norwegian. So I've come to the conclusion that all these populations are quite similar to a certain extent.

penlanach
08-15-2018, 08:24 AM
Lowland Scotland has more cultural and linguistic affinity with Northern England. Dumfires and Galloway, the Borders, and to an extent Clydeside and Lothian have more in common with Cumbria and Northumbria, than with Ireland. This common cultural heritage of the border region is inherited from both Anglian Northumbria and 'Hen Ogledd', the Brythonic Old North.

'Gaelic' Scotland on the other hand, I think has more similarities to Ireland.

Half of Ulster is populated by Scotsmen, so some communities within one portion of Ireland are essentially extensions of Scotland, in the minds of some Ulstermen at least.

fridurich
08-17-2018, 05:10 AM
I agree with much of what you say. However, many people donÂ’t know, or forget that In Galloway, Gaelic was pervasive for quite some time, since part Gaelic-part Viking settlers had settled there about the 10th to 12th centuries A. D. Some Irish people may have migrated there at much earlier times than that.

In the Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy, composed about 1500 or 1508, William Dunbar associated Walter Kennedy with Erschry (Irishry), a term associated with Gaeldom in general. Dunbar also mentions KennedyÂ’s Carrik lippis (Carrick lips). Kennedy was a member of the powerful Kennedy family from around Carrick, which seems to have been a district in what is now present southern Ayrshire. Kennedy retaliated strongly back, but it appears from a Lowland Lothian perspective, represented by Dunbar, that even as late as the early 16th century, Galloway and Carrick still represented Gaelic Scotland, even as Lothian represented Anglo-Saxon Scotland. In 1575, George Buchanan, a Gaelic speaker himself, wrote that Gaelic was still being spoken in Galloway. Around 1563-1566, an English military investigator wrote the people of Carrick for the most part speak Erishe. It is said the last speaker of Galwegian Gaelic was Margaret McMurray who died around 1760.

Also, there are many Gaelic place names in Galloway, some in Ayrshire too. There were quite a number of Gaelic “Mac” surnames among Planters from Galloway who moved to Ulster during the Ulster Plantations (such as McClelland, McGee, etc.). Kennedy was a Gaelic surname some planters had, although Kennedy and McGee/McKee are also indigenous Irish surnames. The majority of Planter surnames weren’t Gaelic, but there are multitudes of people in the world who have some degree of Irish, Highland Scottish, or other Gaelic Scottish DNA but have English or Lowland Scot looking surnames. Now obviously the ancient and Medieval genetic contribution to Galloway also includes the Angles/Saxons, Normans, and other groups. Over time, the English (or Scottish dialect of it) language and culture made big inroads into Galloway. A P-Celtic language must have also been spoken in Galloway for quite some time but seems to have been practically replaced over time by Gaelic. When did Gaelic become much less spoken than English in Galloway? We probably don’t know exactly when, but I feel like Gaelic was the dominant language in the 14th and much or most of the 15th centuries A. D. Based on the instances I have referenced, it seems Gaelic may have been used widely in Galloway and Ayrshire in the 16th century. I think it very likely that, at least during the early Plantations, some of the Galloway Planters could converse with the Gaelic Ulster Irish. Galwegian Gaelic may have survived in ever declining pockets after that and died out totally in the mid 18th century. There seems little doubt that Galloway and Ayrshire were very anglicized in culture and language by this time, if not before, although here and there tiny remnants of Gaelic culture such as some Gaelic surnames remained. I have heard that LivingDna is supposed to take autosomal Dna samples from most of Scotland. The POBI study took very few samples from Galloway. So it would be very interesting if LivingDna gets a lot of samples from Galloway, the Highlands, and the Western Isles, and compares that dna to that of the 10 clusters of dna that the Irish Dna Project found on the island of Ireland.

MacUalraig
08-17-2018, 06:34 AM
Yes Carrick was a Kennedy fiefdom back in the era you refer to. It is one of three bailliaries of the county of Ayr along with Kyle and Cunningham which by the mid 1500s were English speaking.

The more interesting question is not so much how long they hung on to Gaelic but were they more Gaelic speaking before that? If you look at maps of Gaelic placenames in Ayrshire eg bal-, kil- and kirk- it does suggest a bigger concentration in the rougher southern parts of the county.

WFH Nicolaisen's book 'Scottish Place-Names' is very good on the subject.

Saetro
08-18-2018, 01:25 AM
I agree with much of what you say. However, many people donÂ’t know, or forget that In Galloway, Gaelic was pervasive for quite some time, since part Gaelic-part Viking settlers had settled there about the 10th to 12th centuries A. D. Some Irish people may have migrated there at much earlier times than that.

Some Gaelic speakers from Galloway (technically "Gallwegians" but that is easily misunderstood) were relocated to Ireland as part of the early 1600s Plantations.
When the Irish responded to this invasion, they tried to force out those who spoke English or Scots, but left those who had come from Galloway because they spoke Gaelic.

fridurich
08-18-2018, 04:51 PM
Yes Carrick was a Kennedy fiefdom back in the era you refer to. It is one of three bailliaries of the county of Ayr along with Kyle and Cunningham which by the mid 1500s were English speaking.

The more interesting question is not so much how long they hung on to Gaelic but were they more Gaelic speaking before that? If you look at maps of Gaelic placenames in Ayrshire eg bal-, kil- and kirk- it does suggest a bigger concentration in the rougher southern parts of the county.

WFH Nicolaisen's book 'Scottish Place-Names' is very good on the subject.

Thanks MacUalraig for your reply. Actually, it was probably earlier, maybe in the 9th or 10th Centuries A. D. that the Gall-Gaedhil settled in Carrick and Galloway instead of around the 11th and 12th centuries I earlier mentioned. However there could have been further immigration from this group in the time periods I spoke of. Based on the placenames of Ayrshire you mention, it seems like Gaelic may not have been spoken near as much in North Ayrshire as it was in South Ayrshire (approximately the same as Medieval Carrick) and Galloway. I think there was probably a lot of bi-lingualism (English and Gaelic) in Carrick and Galloway for quite some time before Gaelic faded away.

I think in earlier times there was probably simultaneous Norse and Gaelic speech in many areas of Galloway and Carrick and in other areas Cumbric may have been spoken alongside Gaelic.

Nicolaisen’s book sounds interesting, I would like to take a look at it.

Kind Regards
Fred

penlanach
08-22-2018, 04:03 PM
According to Ancestry's updated Genetic Communities, Scotland is more similar to Ireland genetically.

Saetro
08-22-2018, 07:24 PM
According to Ancestry's updated Genetic Communities, Scotland is more similar to Ireland genetically.

Since even their updated Genetic Communities contains some major flaws for me - such as ignoring my Scottish altogether - I find it hard to accept them as an authority.
They also deal with my Cornish* badly and have not found my Irish either.
Looking at quite a few of other people's results leads me to place far more credence in the POBI results for Scotland/Ireland.
But even that makes little sense without knowing a bit about historical movements back and forth.

*Sure they can find my Cornish DNA, but because they assign the UK location for this DNA based on where other testers think their people came from, they get that part wrong.
Most USA people file Cornish just as England and Ancestry locates them in or close to London.
This bodes ill for Scottish/Irish fine detail from Genetic Communities.
Pity, because it has great potential.

msmarjoribanks
08-23-2018, 02:57 AM
My experience is you won't get genetic communities unless they are really recent or a really high percentage or both. I have various known ancestral groups that I can't get genetic communities for since they are too far back or too mixed with other things.

Nqp15hhu
09-27-2018, 10:28 PM
Northern Ireland and Northern England. Limited similarities with ROI and Wales and Southern England.

Nqp15hhu
09-27-2018, 10:30 PM
I would say Scotland is more similar to northern England (Yorkshire and northward), but more similar to Ireland than to places like Kent, Essex, or East Anglia.

Genetically, western Scotland is more similar to Ireland, whereas the rest of the country is genetically closer to northern England. The only exception to this is Northern Ireland/Ulster in which many people are of direct Scottish descent. Though it should be noted that the Irish are not all that different genetically/phenotypically/culturally from the English either.

The original Celtic base of Scotland was not even Goidelic, but Brittonic similar to pre-Anglo Saxon England. The Gaelic language in Scotland was an intrusive element from neighboring Ireland. While the Irish did have significant influence on Scotland, the Scots are British first. Additionally, parts of northern England were once considered part of Scotland, such as Northumbria.

I attend University in Southern England and I would say that we (Northern Irish) are very different culturally.

JonikW
09-27-2018, 10:49 PM
I attend University in Southern England and I would say that we (Northern Irish) are very different culturally.

Interesting. But there's different and there's different. I would say people in Bristol where I'm from are also very different culturally to people in Kent where I am now. On a European scale not so much I suppose and definitely not on a global one.

Nqp15hhu
09-27-2018, 11:02 PM
I’m in the Eastern quadrant and people here have a completely different outlook on life, really.

JerryS.
09-28-2018, 12:18 PM
so, using a broad brush, genetically speaking is Scotland closer to England or Ireland.

Nqp15hhu
09-28-2018, 05:55 PM
Delete

Nqp15hhu
09-28-2018, 06:14 PM
Depends what part of Scotland your ancestors come from.

MacUalraig
09-28-2018, 06:48 PM
I attend University in Southern England and I would say that we (Northern Irish) are very different culturally.

When I was at college in London my flatmate was from Ballymoney. Whether he was typical for his area I won't attempt to speculate. But he seemed pretty much like the rest of us to me, except for his ranting when the news from Northern Ireland came on the tv.

JerryS.
09-28-2018, 11:21 PM
Depends what part of Scotland your ancestors come from.

ok, break it down by parts then. what part(s) are more Irish and what part(s) are more English?

Sikeliot
09-29-2018, 11:44 AM
ok, break it down by parts then. what part(s) are more Irish and what part(s) are more English?

My guess is the following are more Irish like: North/East/South Ayrshire, Argyll and Bute, Inverclyde, East Renfrewshire, Renfrewshire, Glasgow, East/West Dunbartonshire

Everything else should be closer to England.

http://www.jallisonancestors.com/images/scotland_map-counties.jpg

JerryS.
09-29-2018, 12:05 PM
My guess is the following are more Irish like: North/East/South Ayrshire, Argyll and Bute, Inverclyde, East Renfrewshire, Renfrewshire, Glasgow, East/West Dunbartonshire

Everything else should be closer to England.

http://www.jallisonancestors.com/images/scotland_map-counties.jpg

where would you place the Orkney islands/Orcadians?

Nqp15hhu
09-29-2018, 03:41 PM
Nowhere in Scotland is similar to Southern England.

Caledonian
09-29-2018, 05:33 PM
My guess is the following are more Irish like: North/East/South Ayrshire, Argyll and Bute, Inverclyde, East Renfrewshire, Renfrewshire, Glasgow, East/West Dunbartonshire

Everything else should be closer to England.

http://www.jallisonancestors.com/images/scotland_map-counties.jpg

I think it's highly unlikely that Stirlingshire and Perthshire or Galloway would be closer to England, they were very Gaelic areas up until fairly recently. Aberdeenshire is a bit different as I think they had considerable English settlement with a lot of English people settling in the NE after the Norman conquest, and from what I have seen they fall somewhere between Ireland and England genetically, but saying that, Moray in the NE is another historically very Gaelic area.

Saetro
09-29-2018, 06:10 PM
I think it's highly unlikely that Stirlingshire and Perthshire or Galloway would be closer to England, they were very Gaelic areas up until fairly recently. Aberdeenshire is a bit different as I think they had considerable English settlement with a lot of English people settling in the NE after the Norman conquest, and from what I have seen they fall somewhere between Ireland and England genetically, but saying that, Moray in the NE is another historically very Gaelic area.

Galloway not only has strong Gaelic influence historically, but also more recently.
Many Irish arriving from the 1800s on, came through Galloway.
Sure, most moved on - to Glasgow or one or other of the large towns.
But some stayed, and my hearing of those brought up in the far west of Galloway is that the accent has a great deal of Irish about it.
Certainly nothing like modern Glaswegian. (As sampled extensively this past week.)
However, if someone were to make a case for Glaswegian having more brogue in the past, but having changed in the 20th century, there might be something to that.
One of my native Glaswegians was recorded in the 1851 census in east London as being Irish, simply on the basis of accent.

sktibo
09-29-2018, 06:13 PM
I think it's highly unlikely that Stirlingshire and Perthshire or Galloway would be closer to England, they were very Gaelic areas up until fairly recently. Aberdeenshire is a bit different as I think they had considerable English settlement with a lot of English people settling in the NE after the Norman conquest, and from what I have seen they fall somewhere between Ireland and England genetically, but saying that, Moray in the NE is another historically very Gaelic area.

Stirlingshire is a bit odd as some places within it did have a lot of Gaelic language until relatively recently, but other parts of it, in the central belt and close to it have been primarily Scots speaking for a pretty long time. Same with Perthshire, as the lowland areas seem to have been non-Gaelic speaking areas for a good while, while the parishes closer to and in the highlands maintained Gaelic language until quite recently. I don't think that the modern boundaries of Stirlingshire and Perthshire are going to be reflective of the genetic boundaries in those areas.

26278
26279

Same with Galloway as I understand it, some places lost Gaelic language earlier than others. FWIW with the Living DNA results for people with ancestry from Galloway, many received a percentage from "Cumbria" instead of the "Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland" percentage. In the case of Galloway I think the parts closer to the border will be closer to Northern England than Ireland for sure.

Caledonian
09-29-2018, 07:29 PM
Stirlingshire is a bit odd as some places within it did have a lot of Gaelic language until relatively recently, but other parts of it, in the central belt and close to it have been primarily Scots speaking for a pretty long time. Same with Perthshire, as the lowland areas seem to have been non-Gaelic speaking areas for a good while, while the parishes closer to and in the highlands maintained Gaelic language until quite recently. I don't think that the modern boundaries of Stirlingshire and Perthshire are going to be reflective of the genetic boundaries in those areas.

26278
26279

Same with Galloway as I understand it, some places lost Gaelic language earlier than others. FWIW with the Living DNA results for people with ancestry from Galloway, many received a percentage from "Cumbria" instead of the "Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland" percentage. In the case of Galloway I think the parts closer to the border will be closer to Northern England than Ireland for sure.

I wouldn't necessarily conflate language change with genetics, the angicising of Scotland was a gradual change of culture rather than a change in population, looking at the maps you posted these areas were still predominantly Gaelic in to the 15th and 16th century and then Gaelic seems to have suffered a rapid decline.

The Scots-speaking areas of Stirlingshire and Perthshire like Glasgow, Edinburgh etc also had an influx of displaced Gaels during the Highland clearances, with my Paternal ancestors the McLaren's being "Moss Lairds" who eventually settled in Falkirk before going to Canada and then back to Glasgow. And as far as I'm aware outside of SE Scotland and some parts of the SW there was no Anglo-Saxon settlement.

I've no doubt that the eastern part of Dumfries & Galloway will cluster closer to the Cumbrians, but I would also question how close the Cumbrians are to the rest of England, with Cumbric being spoken in to the 11th century there as well as the Norse/Norse-Gael influence, it seems to me that their ancestral make up would be closer to that of Scotland than the rest of England.

Even looking at this map from CymruDna it seems that SW Scotland has the lowest R1b-U106 in Britain.
https://i.imgur.com/BGGdSWR.jpg

Nqp15hhu
09-29-2018, 09:54 PM
Galloway not only has strong Gaelic influence historically, but also more recently.
Many Irish arriving from the 1800s on, came through Galloway.
Sure, most moved on - to Glasgow or one or other of the large towns.
But some stayed, and my hearing of those brought up in the far west of Galloway is that the accent has a great deal of Irish about it.
Certainly nothing like modern Glaswegian. (As sampled extensively this past week.)
However, if someone were to make a case for Glaswegian having more brogue in the past, but having changed in the 20th century, there might be something to that.
One of my native Glaswegians was recorded in the 1851 census in east London as being Irish, simply on the basis of accent.

“Irish” in what way? What do they sound like, in Galloway?

If you give me a link, I can asses whether or not they sound “Irish”.

rms2
09-29-2018, 10:59 PM
My impression is that Scotland is more like Ireland than it is like England, but I don't care to become involved in a big defense of that opinion.

In terms of the y chromosome, Scotland is about 50% R1b-L21 overall, while Ireland is about 80 - 90% R1b-L21, and England is only about 25 or 30% R1b-L21.

spruithean
09-29-2018, 11:28 PM
I wouldn't necessarily conflate language change with genetics, the angicising of Scotland was a gradual change of culture rather than a change in population, looking at the maps you posted these areas were still predominantly Gaelic in to the 15th and 16th century and then Gaelic seems to have suffered a rapid decline.

The Scots-speaking areas of Stirlingshire and Perthshire like Glasgow, Edinburgh etc also had an influx of displaced Gaels during the Highland clearances, with my Paternal ancestors the McLaren's being "Moss Lairds" who eventually settled in Falkirk before going to Canada and then back to Glasgow. And as far as I'm aware outside of SE Scotland and some parts of the SW there was no Anglo-Saxon settlement.

I've no doubt that the eastern part of Dumfries & Galloway will cluster closer to the Cumbrians, but I would also question how close the Cumbrians are to the rest of England, with Cumbric being spoken in to the 11th century there as well as the Norse/Norse-Gael influence, it seems to me that their ancestral make up would be closer to that of Scotland than the rest of England.

Even looking at this map from CymruDna it seems that SW Scotland has the lowest R1b-U106 in Britain.
https://i.imgur.com/BGGdSWR.jpg

Can R1b-U106 be the only proxy for "Germanic" settlement? What are the levels of I1-M253, appropriate R1a clades, certain Scandinavian-looking R1b clades etc in SW Scotland?

rms2
09-30-2018, 12:06 AM
As I recall, I-M253 has a distribution very similar to that of R1b-U106. One of my third great grandfathers was I-M253, and his family was East Anglian.

alan
09-30-2018, 12:10 AM
My guess is the following are more Irish like: North/East/South Ayrshire, Argyll and Bute, Inverclyde, East Renfrewshire, Renfrewshire, Glasgow, East/West Dunbartonshire

Everything else should be closer to England.

http://www.jallisonancestors.com/images/scotland_map-counties.jpg
That really seems v unlikely. There is nowhere in Scotland outside the south-east and borders where a dense population linked to English settlement seems to be of any great time depth or linked to any major population movement from England. Gaelic was spoken to the North Sea coast from Fife to as Aberdeeensnire right up to the last 200 years of the independent Scottish kingdom. No major movements from
England happened thereafter. What seems to have happened is that after c 1100AD small pockets of knights retainers, dwellers of new Burghs with royal protection and small fishing communities were established and formed the core from which English could spread much later BUT they remained little islands of non-Gaelic speakers in a sea of Gaelic speaking for centuries. What I think many are overlooking as the big event was the huge clearance of the small tenant farmer class in both th highlands and lowlands 200+ years ago. That removed the core of the Scottish rural pop and brought in many outsiders

sktibo
09-30-2018, 05:19 AM
I wouldn't necessarily conflate language change with genetics, the angicising of Scotland was a gradual change of culture rather than a change in population, looking at the maps you posted these areas were still predominantly Gaelic in to the 15th and 16th century and then Gaelic seems to have suffered a rapid decline.

The Scots-speaking areas of Stirlingshire and Perthshire like Glasgow, Edinburgh etc also had an influx of displaced Gaels during the Highland clearances, with my Paternal ancestors the McLaren's being "Moss Lairds" who eventually settled in Falkirk before going to Canada and then back to Glasgow. And as far as I'm aware outside of SE Scotland and some parts of the SW there was no Anglo-Saxon settlement.

I've no doubt that the eastern part of Dumfries & Galloway will cluster closer to the Cumbrians, but I would also question how close the Cumbrians are to the rest of England, with Cumbric being spoken in to the 11th century there as well as the Norse/Norse-Gael influence, it seems to me that their ancestral make up would be closer to that of Scotland than the rest of England.

Even looking at this map from CymruDna it seems that SW Scotland has the lowest R1b-U106 in Britain.


IIRC this is mentioned earlier in this thread but northern England doesn't cluster with south and central England. Cumbria, for example, is distinct, as is Northumbria, from most of England. These regions are closer to Scotland than they are to most of England according to the data we currently have access to. I'm not saying these lowland regions are closer to England as a whole, rather that they are closer to the North of England. However, it might turn out that they are slightly closer to England than to Ireland overall, depending on the region. In the case of Stirling I think it was closer to the 1500's or perhaps even the 1400's when Gaelic declined. There were Anglo-Saxon incursions and takeovers of Stirling, and although it doesn't look like they were responsible for any settlements (although maybe they were I have never looked in to this specifically) they probably got in there and affected the gene pool to some extent. I'm not arguing it's a large extent but I do get the impression that the non-Scandinavian Germanic heritage of Scotland is often underestimated.

Anyhow, here's a PCA from the Irish DNA Atlas:

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They don't have lowland Stirlingshire or Perthshire samples unfortunately, but those dark blue squares and circles labelled "N Scotland" are rural Aberdeenshire samples. The long stretch of teal or light blue are SW Scottish and Northern Irish samples. We can see the Aberdeenshire samples are definitely closer to Northern England than they are to Ireland, and that a surprising number of the SW Scottish/NI samples are also closer to Northern England. Some of these samples are actually closer to England as a whole than to Ireland, but overall it is interesting that Scotland is in between England and Ireland with a lot of them almost being a halfway point. There are many more PCAs in the Insular Celtic Population Structure paper (Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration) which can give a few more perspectives on this: https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

Nqp15hhu
09-30-2018, 08:04 AM
Still find it amazing that those three NI clusters apparently represent all the population of Northern Ireland.

Sikeliot
09-30-2018, 02:47 PM
That really seems v unlikely. There is nowhere in Scotland outside the south-east and borders where a dense population linked to English settlement seems to be of any great time depth or linked to any major population movement from England. Gaelic was spoken to the North Sea coast from Fife to as Aberdeeensnire right up to the last 200 years of the independent Scottish kingdom. No major movements from
England happened thereafter. What seems to have happened is that after c 1100AD small pockets of knights retainers, dwellers of new Burghs with royal protection and small fishing communities were established and formed the core from which English could spread much later BUT they remained little islands of non-Gaelic speakers in a sea of Gaelic speaking for centuries. What I think many are overlooking as the big event was the huge clearance of the small tenant farmer class in both th highlands and lowlands 200+ years ago. That removed the core of the Scottish rural pop and brought in many outsiders


It isn't unlikely if you consider the following:

1. Not all of the "Celtic" ancestry in the Scots is Gaelic, some of it is likely from Britons, Picts, and other 'British' Celtic peoples whom contributed more to the ancestry of the modern day English than to the Irish, especially in northern England,
2. The English are not nearly, or in most cases even mostly, full Anglo-Saxon.

For Scotland to be homogeneously closer to Ireland it requires the assumption the English are mostly Anglo-Saxon, and that the original Celtic people of northern Britain were entirely replaced by Gaels from Ireland. I highly doubt either of these is the case.

I would imagine most Scots, except some people in the west, are closer to England from Yorkshire northward, than to the Irish.

MacUalraig
09-30-2018, 03:24 PM
"Could S21, M253 and others not have arrived much later in Britain especially in England with the coming of the Anglo-Saxons and Danes after the 4th century AD? In Scotland at least the notion of an more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in areas where there was little or no settlement by Anglo-Saxons. In Moray and Aberdeenshire the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers acros the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before"

The Scots A Genetic Journey (2012).

morganman3
09-30-2018, 03:25 PM
26302
The SSC region of Scotland is closer to every region of Ireland (apart from South Munster) than England here.

alan
09-30-2018, 03:40 PM
It isn't unlikely if you consider the following:

1. Not all of the "Celtic" ancestry in the Scots is Gaelic, some of it is likely from Britons, Picts, and other 'British' Celtic peoples whom contributed more to the ancestry of the modern day English than to the Irish, especially in northern England,
2. The English are not nearly, or in most cases even mostly, full Anglo-Saxon.

For Scotland to be homogeneously closer to Ireland it requires the assumption the English are mostly Anglo-Saxon, and that the original Celtic people of northern Britain were entirely replaced by Gaels from Ireland. I highly doubt either of these is the case.

I would imagine most Scots, except some people in the west, are closer to England from Yorkshire northward, than to the Irish.
I wouldn’t put too much weight on the P vs Q Celtic thing. The reality is both spoke ‘insular Celtic’with just a couple of minor differences and as late as 500AD probably we’re easily mutually intelligible and could mix freely. The strong Gaelic, Welsh etc features that came to make them quite distinct did not yet exist until after 500AD and perhaps not until nearer 600AD. It’s too easy to back project sharp identity divisions and pseudo ethnicities into periods they didn’t exist in.

For what it’s worth, I was born in Scotland and IMO there is not much of a resemblance between Scots and Yorkshire folk either physically or culturally. I can however see a fairly strong cultural similarity between modern Scots and Geordies (Newcastle upon Tyne/Northumberland) as they share a lot of dialect and also have a similar ‘way’, fast talking gift of the gab and sense of humour. Both are also known for being a bit temperamental and prone to fisticuffs LOL May be a partial overlap in physical types too. Scots and Geordies are a lot more like each other than either is to Yorkshire. Yorkshire people are quite different in my experience and more dry and drole.

morganman3
09-30-2018, 03:43 PM
I wouldn’t put too much weight on the P vs Q Celtic thing. The reality is both spoke ‘insular Celtic’with just a couple of minor differences and as late as 500AD probably we’re easily mutually intelligible and could mix freely. The strong Gaelic, Welsh etc features that came to make them quite distinct did not yet exist until after 500AD and perhaps not until nearer 600AD. It’s too easy to back project sharp identity divisions and pseudo ethnicities into periods they didn’t exist in.


What's your reasoning behind this? I am rather out the loop on this subject.

rms2
09-30-2018, 04:02 PM
"Could S21, M253 and others not have arrived much later in Britain especially in England with the coming of the Anglo-Saxons and Danes after the 4th century AD? In Scotland at least the notion of an more ancient east/west divide is much more robust because it is observed clearly in areas where there was little or no settlement by Anglo-Saxons. In Moray and Aberdeenshire the incidence of S21 is very high in the male population and that of S145 rather low. No doubt the Anglo-Saxons brought S21 and other markers acros the North Sea once more, strengthening the gradient of genetic types across England, but they were present in England long before"

The Scots A Genetic Journey (2012).

I think the idea that S21 (U106) predates the Anglo-Saxons (or earlier Germanics in Roman service) in Britain has been pretty well shot through by Olalde et al, which found no U106 in Britain in the Neolithic, the Bell Beaker, or the Bronze Age populations.

The pocket of somewhat elevated (for Scotland) U106 frequency in Scotland coincides with the region in which David I settled Northumbrians in the 12th century.

Sikeliot
09-30-2018, 04:50 PM
26302
The SSC region of Scotland is closer to every region of Ireland (apart from South Munster) than England here.

But this sort of proves my point because South Munster is the furthest Irish cluster from Britain. You could easily interpret that PCA to show that Leinster (Ireland) and South Central Scotland are as close to parts of England, as they are to Irish from Munster.

morganman3
09-30-2018, 05:03 PM
But this sort of proves my point because South Munster is the furthest Irish cluster from Britain. You could easily interpret that PCA to show that Leinster (Ireland) and South Central Scotland are as close to parts of England, as they are to Irish from Munster.
Well according to this, Leinster is at least 33% closer to Southern Munster than it is to the closet region of England, so it's not equally distant. Do you know the cause of Southern Munster being isolated from the rest of Ireland anyway?

avalon
09-30-2018, 05:10 PM
I wouldn’t put too much weight on the P vs Q Celtic thing. The reality is both spoke ‘insular Celtic’with just a couple of minor differences and as late as 500AD probably we’re easily mutually intelligible and could mix freely. The strong Gaelic, Welsh etc features that came to make them quite distinct did not yet exist until after 500AD and perhaps not until nearer 600AD. It’s too easy to back project sharp identity divisions and pseudo ethnicities into periods they didn’t exist in.

For what it’s worth, I was born in Scotland and IMO there is not much of a resemblance between Scots and Yorkshire folk either physically or culturally. I can however see a fairly strong cultural similarity between modern Scots and Geordies (Newcastle upon Tyne/Northumberland) as they share a lot of dialect and also have a similar ‘way’, fast talking gift of the gab and sense of humour. Both are also known for being a bit temperamental and prone to fisticuffs LOL May be a partial overlap in physical types too. Scots and Geordies are a lot more like each other than either is to Yorkshire. Yorkshire people are quite different in my experience and more dry and drole.

Other than the fact they're both tight with money. :biggrin1:

In all seriousness though, If you look at this PCA then you can see that it is the Cumbrians and Geordies who do cluster closest to Scottish populations. Yorkshire is shifted further south closer to the main SE English cluster so there appears to be genetic support for the cultural similarities you speak of.

26304

Nqp15hhu
09-30-2018, 05:13 PM
I wouldn’t put too much weight on the P vs Q Celtic thing. The reality is both spoke ‘insular Celtic’with just a couple of minor differences and as late as 500AD probably we’re easily mutually intelligible and could mix freely. The strong Gaelic, Welsh etc features that came to make them quite distinct did not yet exist until after 500AD and perhaps not until nearer 600AD. It’s too easy to back project sharp identity divisions and pseudo ethnicities into periods they didn’t exist in.

For what it’s worth, I was born in Scotland and IMO there is not much of a resemblance between Scots and Yorkshire folk either physically or culturally. I can however see a fairly strong cultural similarity between modern Scots and Geordies (Newcastle upon Tyne/Northumberland) as they share a lot of dialect and also have a similar ‘way’, fast talking gift of the gab and sense of humour. Both are also known for being a bit temperamental and prone to fisticuffs LOL May be a partial overlap in physical types too. Scots and Geordies are a lot more like each other than either is to Yorkshire. Yorkshire people are quite different in my experience and more dry and drole.

What do you think of this topic? Ireland or England? As you are born in Scotland.

Nqp15hhu
09-30-2018, 05:19 PM
26302
The SSC region of Scotland is closer to every region of Ireland (apart from South Munster) than England here.

Why is NI closer to Britain than Southern Scotland?

Sikeliot
09-30-2018, 05:51 PM
Do you know the cause of Southern Munster being isolated from the rest of Ireland anyway?

Little to no British ancestry I would guess.

CillKenny
09-30-2018, 07:27 PM
Well according to this, Leinster is at least 33% closer to Southern Munster than it is to the closet region of England, so it's not equally distant. Do you know the cause of Southern Munster being isolated from the rest of Ireland anyway?

The Irish DNA Atlas paper shows that South Munster is closer to the earliest population before the arrival of the beaker groups. South Munster is remote and mountainous, which probably explains the smaller influence of later arrivals.

alan
10-01-2018, 12:24 AM
I’d say that Ireland, Scotland and northernmost England have a lot in common but that they are not at all like the central and southern English either physically or culturally. Got to be honest and say I find the Home Counties bit of southern ‘middle’ England an alien place.

alan
10-01-2018, 12:36 AM
The Irish DNA Atlas paper shows that South Munster is closer to the earliest population before the arrival of the beaker groups. South Munster is remote and mountainous, which probably explains the smaller influence of later arrivals.

It also comes across as a place apart in the distribution maps of monument types and objects through the prehistoric era. Ireland basically tended to be entered from either the Scotland/Man type direction (into Ulster, North Connaught and N Leinster) or from the SW England/SWWales/Brittany direction to SE Leinster. Munster just was not the first landfall from anywhere by sea.

fridurich
10-01-2018, 02:06 AM
On the Irish Dna Atlas thread, someone said that 500 samples have been taken from mainland Scotland and 250 from the Isles (probably the Western Isles of Scotland/Hebrides) and the Isle of Man. I get the impression these are all autosomal Dna samples. The person I refer to has communicated recently with a major figure of the Irish Dna Project. This is fantastic news!

The pobi project left out massive areas of Scotland, including massive areas of the Highlands and Western Isles. Looks like they only got a few samples from Galloway, where Gaelic was spoken for a long time although I’m sure the Anglo/Saxons, Norman’s, Brythonic Celts, also had genetic input there besides the dna input from the Gall-Gaedhil (spelling?) who were a mixed Norse/ Gaelic people,and the Irish. I know much of Galloway is mountainous, with the population concentrated on the coasts, but I hope they took a lot of Galloway samples throughout the coastal areas and any hilly areas that had much of a population.

So for the question is Scotland more similar to Ireland or England, looking at it autosomal Dna-wise, this study will probably shed much light and be very interesting!

Kind Regards

Nqp15hhu
10-01-2018, 08:38 AM
I’d say that Ireland, Scotland and northernmost England have a lot in common but that they are not at all like the central and southern English either physically or culturally. Got to be honest and say I find the Home Counties bit of southern ‘middle’ England an alien place.

Fair enough. I study in the south and feel the same.

JonikW
10-01-2018, 08:54 PM
Fair enough. I study in the south and feel the same.

As someone from the West Country I know what you mean, although I enjoy living in Kent and know plenty of warm and interesting people here. I think the South East suffers from a lack of real identity, unlike Scotland of course.

spruithean
10-02-2018, 12:36 AM
I think the idea that S21 (U106) predates the Anglo-Saxons (or earlier Germanics in Roman service) in Britain has been pretty well shot through by Olalde et al, which found no U106 in Britain in the Neolithic, the Bell Beaker, or the Bronze Age populations.

The pocket of somewhat elevated (for Scotland) U106 frequency in Scotland coincides with the region in which David I settled Northumbrians in the 12th century.

I'm not sure why the argument for U106 being in Britain prior to the Germanc settlements keeps popping up. The evidence for U106 being strongly associated with Germanic areas is quite high.

I still think we need more aDNA for I1 to see how strongly associated these two haplogroups might be...

MacEochaidh
10-02-2018, 02:45 AM
Im sure someone has coverd this, but here's a genetic map which shows a north of Ireland genetic group "NICS" which stands for North of Ireland, Scotland, Cumbria. On the map NICS is most closely related to Northern Scotland while Southern Scotland is most closely related to the Irish Ulster genetic group. As far as England goes, only Cumbria and Northeast England are in play.

For me, taking my information from LivingDNA and the new AncestryDNA update, I am a perfect fit for NICS.

26343

ADW_1981
10-02-2018, 02:52 AM
In your opinion are the Scots, taken as a whole and including characteristics such as culture, history, music, appearance, genetics, etc., closer and more similar to Ireland or England? I ask this not just in a modern sense but taken their known histories and deep origin as well. It might be easy to say just say "West/Isles more like Ireland and Lowlands, particularly Lothian, more like England" but if we take all Scots as a whole?

Could it be said that the Scots may be seen in a sense as the midway or intermediary between Irish and English in relation the above categories?

I would say lowlands are like English, highlands are like Irish. The tie breaker would be that the earlier people called the Picts were likely similar to the Brythonic peole who resided in what is now England, so I suspect overall closer to English.

Sikeliot
10-02-2018, 03:01 AM
It also comes across as a place apart in the distribution maps of monument types and objects through the prehistoric era. Ireland basically tended to be entered from either the Scotland/Man type direction (into Ulster, North Connaught and N Leinster) or from the SW England/SWWales/Brittany direction to SE Leinster. Munster just was not the first landfall from anywhere by sea.

Exactly this. So essentially northern/western Ireland had more continuity with northern Britain, and southeast Ireland with southern Britain. Southwest Ireland remained isolated.

Jessie
10-02-2018, 03:40 AM
I would say lowlands are like English, highlands are like Irish. The tie breaker would be that the earlier people called the Picts were likely similar to the Brythonic peole who resided in what is now England, so I suspect overall closer to English.

Not sure if genetically Picts would be similar to other Brythonic people exactly. I don't know if the language divide e.g. Gaelic / Brythonic is going to differentiate on the genetic side. Possibly parts of Scotland were always more similar to Ireland due to longstanding contact i.e. West Scotland and the islands. Border areas are going to be closer to Northern English.

I'm sure others will weigh in on the topic.

avalon
10-02-2018, 06:32 AM
Im sure someone has coverd this, but here's a genetic map which shows a north of Ireland genetic group "NICS" which stands for North of Ireland, Scotland, Cumbria. On the map NICS is most closely related to Northern Scotland AND Southern Scotland is most closely related to the Irish Ulster genetic group. As far as England goes, only Cumbria and Northeast England are in play.

For me, taking my information from LivingDNA and the new AncestryDNA update, I am a perfect fit for NICS.

26343

A lot of people have been posting that chart but I would point out that it is a PC1 v PC4 and an obvious problem with it is the positioning of Orkney right next to SE England when we know that PC2 differentiates Orkney from the rest of Britain.

PC1/PC2 actually captures most of the genetic variation between these populations and you can see the chart at the link along with the t-sne chart which is also good at summarising overall differences between clusters.

Along the PC1 axis you can see the variation and it looks to me like only SSC is shifted towards Ireland. NICS and NSC are midway between Ireland and SE England but very close to Northern England so looking at the charts as a whole I would say Scottish clusters are generally showing a strong affinity with Northern England.


https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

JerryS.
10-02-2018, 08:21 AM
A lot of people have been posting that chart but I would point out that it is a PC1 v PC4 and an obvious problem with it is the positioning of Orkney right next to SE England when we know that PC2 differentiates Orkney from the rest of Britain.

PC1/PC2 actually captures most of the genetic variation between these populations and you can see the chart at the link along with the t-sne chart which is also good at summarising overall differences between clusters.

Along the PC1 axis you can see the variation and it looks to me like only SSC is shifted towards Ireland. NICS and NSC are midway between Ireland and SE England but very close to Northern England so looking at the charts as a whole I would say Scottish clusters are generally showing a strong affinity with Northern England.


https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

could this be viewed as Northern England shows a strong affinity with Scotland instead?

Sikeliot
10-02-2018, 11:29 AM
could this be viewed as Northern England shows a strong affinity with Scotland instead?

Probably. Culturally they do, also. There was even a petition going around online some time ago in northern England where thousands of people stated they wanted to leave England and become part of Scotland.

Jessie
10-02-2018, 03:12 PM
A lot of people have been posting that chart but I would point out that it is a PC1 v PC4 and an obvious problem with it is the positioning of Orkney right next to SE England when we know that PC2 differentiates Orkney from the rest of Britain.

PC1/PC2 actually captures most of the genetic variation between these populations and you can see the chart at the link along with the t-sne chart which is also good at summarising overall differences between clusters.

Along the PC1 axis you can see the variation and it looks to me like only SSC is shifted towards Ireland. NICS and NSC are midway between Ireland and SE England but very close to Northern England so looking at the charts as a whole I would say Scottish clusters are generally showing a strong affinity with Northern England.


https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

SSC clusters with Ireland and is a very large area and correct me if I'm wrong but has the largest population also.

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/ireland-britain-genetic-geography.jpg

Nqp15hhu
10-02-2018, 06:16 PM
Exactly this. So essentially northern/western Ireland had more continuity with northern Britain, and southeast Ireland with southern Britain. Southwest Ireland remained isolated.

Hmm, not sure. I wouldn't say anywhere in Ireland shares close ties with Southern England.

avalon
10-02-2018, 06:43 PM
SSC clusters with Ireland and is a very large area and correct me if I'm wrong but has the largest population also.



Well it depends which chart you look at. The t-SNE chart from the same paper shows that SSC is shifted more towards the other Scottish clusters and perhaps midway between the CUM/NEE and the Irish clusters. This is what the paper says about t-sne analysis:


t-SNE is a nonlinear dimensionality reduction method that attempts to provide an optimal low-dimensional embedding of data by preserving both local and global structure, placing similar points close to each other and dissimilar points far apart. In principle, a two-dimensional t-SNE plot can therefore summarize more of the overall differences between groups than those described by any two principal components, although the relative group sizes, positions and distances on the plot are less straightforward to interpret.

26363

avalon
10-02-2018, 06:53 PM
could this be viewed as Northern England shows a strong affinity with Scotland instead?

Yeh, sure but the title of the thread is, Scotland: More similar to Ireland or England?

I think the sensible answer is that some Scots are genetically more like the Northern English and some are more like the Irish. From the PCA charts 1-4 it's only really SSC that shows an obvious shift to Ireland.

Sikeliot
10-02-2018, 09:00 PM
Hmm, not sure. I wouldn't say anywhere in Ireland shares close ties with Southern England.

Clearly some people from Central Leinster, South Leinster, and North Munster drift in that direction..

fridurich
10-03-2018, 03:46 AM
Well it depends which chart you look at. The t-SNE chart from the same paper shows that SSC is shifted more towards the other Scottish clusters and perhaps midway between the CUM/NEE and the Irish clusters. This is what the paper says about t-sne analysis:



26363

Concerning the people the t-sne charts and PCA charts represent in this study, was there any kind of requirement that all 4 grandparents be born within 50 km or so of each other, or could some of the people sampled come from families who haven’t lived in their part of their country very long?

Kind Regards

Jessie
10-03-2018, 04:18 AM
Concerning the people the t-sne charts and PCA charts represent in this study, was there any kind of requirement that all 4 grandparents be born within 50 km or so of each other, or could some of the people sampled come from families who haven’t lived in their part of their country very long?

Kind Regards

Hi fridurich - I'm sure avalon will answer but as far as I'm aware the Scottish samples are from the PoBI study and all 4 grandparents have to be born within a 50 km radius. I know that the Insular Celtic paper added more Irish samples (which were not as restrictive as the IDA) as well as using the Irish DNA Atlas database samples.

avalon
10-03-2018, 04:32 PM
Concerning the people the t-sne charts and PCA charts represent in this study, was there any kind of requirement that all 4 grandparents be born within 50 km or so of each other, or could some of the people sampled come from families who haven’t lived in their part of their country very long?

Kind Regards

Yes, like Jessie said I'm pretty sure the Scottish samples are all from POBI. Of course a major problem with POBI was that the Scottish sampling wasn't very good, particularly in the highlands and islands, so it might be that with more sampling from Scotland we'll get a different results.

ADW_1981
10-03-2018, 06:24 PM
Not sure if genetically Picts would be similar to other Brythonic people exactly. I don't know if the language divide e.g. Gaelic / Brythonic is going to differentiate on the genetic side. Possibly parts of Scotland were always more similar to Ireland due to longstanding contact i.e. West Scotland and the islands. Border areas are going to be closer to Northern English.

I'm sure others will weigh in on the topic.

Do you think the Irish group came into formation from the western Scottish Isles or by crossing from Wales? Maybe both? You always hear of Scots moving to Scotland from Ireland, but I suppose you might be correct that the similarity is even older.

I always read that Picts were just Britons pushed north by the Romans, but you're right that it's probably not that simple, and there were definitely already people in what is now Scotland.

I guess the answer is that it's more layered, but certainly many lowland families were formed by land grants from the Norman conquests, but also some Britons who fled northwards during the expansion of the Roman empire.

alan
10-03-2018, 09:18 PM
The living welsh are by far the most concentrated representatives of the Brythonic branches and if picked with reasonable care the sample could comprise people with no English speakers of any time depth. AFAIK the welsh provide very good evidence that much of the British speaking pre-Anglo-Saxon population had not autosomaly shifted towards west central Europe in the late Bronze Age/Iron Age even if some individuals and groups in the south and east coasts had. The Welsh would seem to indicate that the Britons away from the easy lines of contact with continent along the south and east coasts may not have experienced this autosomal shift.

It’s telling that L21 remained dominant among insular Celtic speakers regardless of whether they experienced the late Bronze o/Iron Age autosomal shift (like some British ancient DNA) or didn’t (the Welsh). L21 correlates v well with insular Celtic but the presence or absence of the autosomal shift does not seem to correlate with linguistic boundaries or even the Gaelic-Brythonic division.

So you may see people try to peddle this autosomal shift with ‘real’ Celtic invaders from the west of Central Europe BUT it doesn’t work if you think it through. The evidence is imo that simply areas near the south and east coasts experienced constant non hostile (the L21 lines stayed in charge) trickle migration while those to the west didn’t. The common thread in insults Celtic speakers today and in ancient dna is L21 not a late Bronze Age/Iron Age autosomal shift. What the autosomal shift probably does describe is the variation within insular Celtic speaking Britons that classical sources later noted in phenotype (see Strabo on coastal vs interior Britons and Tacitus too on local tribal variation.
.

JerryS.
10-03-2018, 10:01 PM
The living welsh are by far the most concentrated representatives of the Brythonic branches and if picked with reasonable care the sample could comprise people with no English speakers of any time depth. AFAIK the welsh provide very good evidence that much of the British speaking pre-Anglo-Saxon population had not autosomaly shifted towards west central Europe in the late Bronze Age/Iron Age even if some individuals and groups in the south and east coasts had. The Welsh would seem to indicate that the Britons away from the easy lines of contact with continent along the south and east coasts may not have experienced this autosomal shift.

It’s telling that L21 remained dominant among insular Celtic speakers regardless of whether they experienced the late Bronze o/Iron Age autosomal shift (like some British ancient DNA) or didn’t (the Welsh). L21 correlates v well with insular Celtic but the presence or absence of the autosomal shift does not seem to correlate with linguistic boundaries or even the Gaelic-Brythonic division.

So you may see people try to peddle this autosomal shift with ‘real’ Celtic invaders from the west of Central Europe BUT it doesn’t work if you think it through. The evidence is imo that simply areas near the south and east coasts experienced constant non hostile (the L21 lines stayed in charge) trickle migration while those to the west didn’t. The common thread in insults Celtic speakers today and in ancient dna is L21 not a late Bronze Age/Iron Age autosomal shift. What the autosomal shift probably does describe is the variation within insular Celtic speaking Britons that classical sources later noted in phenotype (see Strabo on coastal vs interior Britons and Tacitus too on local tribal variation.
.

so, the Scots are closer to the Irish, or closer to the English?

fridurich
10-04-2018, 03:33 AM
Hi fridurich - I'm sure avalon will answer but as far as I'm aware the Scottish samples are from the PoBI study and all 4 grandparents have to be born within a 50 km radius. I know that the Insular Celtic paper added more Irish samples (which were not as restrictive as the IDA) as well as using the Irish DNA Atlas database samples.

Hi Jessie, and thanks!

Kind Regards

fridurich
10-04-2018, 03:54 AM
Hi fridurich - I'm sure avalon will answer but as far as I'm aware the Scottish samples are from the PoBI study and all 4 grandparents have to be born within a 50 km radius. I know that the Insular Celtic paper added more Irish samples (which were not as restrictive as the IDA) as well as using the Irish DNA Atlas database samples.


Yes, like Jessie said I'm pretty sure the Scottish samples are all from POBI. Of course a major problem with POBI was that the Scottish sampling wasn't very good, particularly in the highlands and islands, so it might be that with more sampling from Scotland we'll get a different results.

I agree that the Scottish sampling wasn’t that good. As you noted, they left out vast expanses of the Highlands and the Western Isles. Additionally, they only sampled a few individuals from Galloway. Not sure what the reason was for missing so many areas. I think when the Irish DNA Atlas people publish their new research, the new PCA charts that include analysis of the 500 new samples from mainland Scotland and 250 from the Western Isles and Isle of Man will change their old PCA charts to some extent. Maybe to a great extant.

Kind Regards
Fred

MacEochaidh
10-04-2018, 11:43 AM
so, the Scots are closer to the Irish, or closer to the English?

If you go by L21, then Scotland is much closer to the Irish, where L21 is extremely dominant.

JerryS.
10-04-2018, 11:56 AM
If you go by L21, then Scotland is much closer to the Irish, where L21 is extremely dominant.

what if you don't go by L21? I mean are the majority of Scottish people closer to the majority of Irish people or the majority of English people. I'm not talking about the fringe outliers or border regions where there is an apparent mix already.

MacEochaidh
10-04-2018, 12:18 PM
what if you don't go by L21? I mean are the majority of Scottish people closer to the majority of Irish people or the majority of English people. I'm not talking about the fringe outliers or border regions where there is an apparent mix already.

Please refer to the post by "alan". That's the post that has the L21 theory. Your question, " so, the Scots are closer to the Irish, or closer to the English?" was asked in response to that post. My answer to your question was only the obvious conclusion of "alan's" post and theory.

JerryS.
10-04-2018, 01:25 PM
Please refer to the post by "alan". That's the post that has the L21 theory. Your question, " so, the Scots are closer to the Irish, or closer to the English?" was asked in response to that post. My answer to your question was only the obvious conclusion of "alan's" post and theory.

excuse my ignorance. I am a layman and the sub-clade and such speak of haplogroups is beyond me. this is why I ask straight forward questions, not seeking an abstract hypothesis.... I just want a simple answer to the thread title:
Scotland: More similar to Ireland or England?

msmarjoribanks
10-04-2018, 03:44 PM
If you go by L21, then Scotland is much closer to the Irish, where L21 is extremely dominant.

It would be nice (and may exist, I don't know) to have a percentage breakdown of the major subclades of L21 in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England (for those who are L21).

Clearly the percentage of L21 is lower in England, where it has been more diluted by a variety of subsequent groups whose YDNA is present in significant numbers (not saying none of those are present from older time too, of course, I'm sure they were). However, I'd be curious about the patterns of L21, especially (as a personal matter) since my dad's DF63 (while in low numbers everywhere), seems basically absent from Ireland (except for some in Ulster likely brought later from Scotland), but has some presence in both England and Scotland (don't know about Wales yet).

sktibo
10-04-2018, 04:25 PM
excuse my ignorance. I am a layman and the sub-clade and such speak of haplogroups is beyond me. this is why I ask straight forward questions, not seeking an abstract hypothesis.... I just want a simple answer to the thread title:

Here's the simplest answer possible then:

Some of Scotland is closer to Ireland and some of it is closer to England. Basically, Scotland is autosomally in between the two. Of the regions in Scotland which were sampled, the north-west (sampled areas are Islay, Argyll, and Lewis) is closer to Ireland. The south-west (looks to be mostly Ayrshire) is probably closer to Ireland but some of the samples of this type lean towards England a bit more. In this cluster some are closer to England and some are closer to Ireland. The north-east (Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Morayshire) samples are closer to England overall. There are a few samples from the Scottish Borders which cluster with Northumbria, and are closer to England.

So that's what we have so far. Recently we learned that a Scottish DNA project is being carried out so that should improve upon our knowledge.

The answer to this in my opinion is that Scotland is in between England and Ireland, and is not similar to one or the other as a whole. However, if we were to count the samples we currently have I think more of them would be slightly closer to England than to Ireland, but that is pretty much meaningless as a lot of the country remains unsampled.

Some of Scotland is closer to Ireland, some of it is closer to England. Overall it is in between the two.

sktibo
10-04-2018, 04:56 PM
The living welsh are by far the most concentrated representatives of the Brythonic branches and if picked with reasonable care the sample could comprise people with no English speakers of any time depth. AFAIK the welsh provide very good evidence that much of the British speaking pre-Anglo-Saxon population had not autosomaly shifted towards west central Europe in the late Bronze Age/Iron Age even if some individuals and groups in the south and east coasts had. The Welsh would seem to indicate that the Britons away from the easy lines of contact with continent along the south and east coasts may not have experienced this autosomal shift.

It’s telling that L21 remained dominant among insular Celtic speakers regardless of whether they experienced the late Bronze o/Iron Age autosomal shift (like some British ancient DNA) or didn’t (the Welsh). L21 correlates v well with insular Celtic but the presence or absence of the autosomal shift does not seem to correlate with linguistic boundaries or even the Gaelic-Brythonic division.

So you may see people try to peddle this autosomal shift with ‘real’ Celtic invaders from the west of Central Europe BUT it doesn’t work if you think it through. The evidence is imo that simply areas near the south and east coasts experienced constant non hostile (the L21 lines stayed in charge) trickle migration while those to the west didn’t. The common thread in insults Celtic speakers today and in ancient dna is L21 not a late Bronze Age/Iron Age autosomal shift. What the autosomal shift probably does describe is the variation within insular Celtic speaking Britons that classical sources later noted in phenotype (see Strabo on coastal vs interior Britons and Tacitus too on local tribal variation.
.

Is that where Strabo claims that the tribes of interior Britain are taller than the "Gaulish Colonists" on the coasts? What is particularly interesting about that, in relation to the new Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA is that 3 Iron Age Britons are included on that, and their positions are quite shifted towards the South Dutch and one of them is very much French-shifted. None of them are particularly close to the Irish cluster, and IIRC all of these samples are from south-eastern England, so perhaps these people at this time were descended from Gaulish colonists?
A re-occurring theme which I think I see expressed fairly regularly is that the Brythonic languages were introduced from Continental Celts. I don't know how this can be as the Welsh do not autosomally represent this continental shift we see in the Iron Age British samples - though few in number the Welsh (I need to note this is excluding the Welsh Borders) samples we have appear to be closer to the Irish on PCAs such as this where finestructure is not used to differentiate the Isles. My understanding, (now perhaps this is incorrect) is that both Goidelic and Brythonic stem from a common Insular ancestor, rather than Q-Celtic being more or less indigenous and P-Celtic being imported. It seems to me that is is far more likely that there were people from the continent who migrated to Britain for whatever reason and were not responsible for any major linguistic shift there. The Cornish are quite different from the Welsh despite a common language branch. The Gaelic Scots of the west coast aren't that different from the Irish despite probably having more Scandinavian ancestry in many cases.

Sikeliot
10-07-2018, 01:35 PM
Here's the simplest answer possible then:

Some of Scotland is closer to Ireland and some of it is closer to England. Basically, Scotland is autosomally in between the two. Of the regions in Scotland which were sampled, the north-west (sampled areas are Islay, Argyll, and Lewis) is closer to Ireland. The south-west (looks to be mostly Ayrshire) is probably closer to Ireland but some of the samples of this type lean towards England a bit more. In this cluster some are closer to England and some are closer to Ireland. The north-east (Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Morayshire) samples are closer to England overall. There are a few samples from the Scottish Borders which cluster with Northumbria, and are closer to England.

Which would the following be closer to:

Lanarkshire
East/West/Midlothian
Fife
Angus
Perthshire

Saetro
10-07-2018, 11:53 PM
Which would the following be closer to:

Lanarkshire
East/West/Midlothian
Fife
Angus
Perthshire

Due to much internal migration from 1750 on -
. Lowlands farming to Lowlands towns
. Highlands and Islands to Lowlands
. one part of the Lowlands to another
. Ireland to Lowlands towns
- it is really hard to comment on these locations reliably enough for the accuracy you are used to discussing in other threads.

Lanarkshire had input from all of these areas.
Midlothian too, but less Irish.
Perthshire had internal movement from Highland to Lowland areas.
Some of these Perth people having moved once, then moved again - to Fife.
Fifeshire also had internal migrations from Stirling and Clackmannan.
All of these I know about because some came to Australia and their descendants have told me about it, or I have found the links for them.

If you go back to 1700 and before, then we know that the Lothians were ruled at one stage by Angles, hence Scots language containing much of that influence. So, close to England.
Lanarkshire seems to have had local Celts. Who would probably have had Rheged/Cumbria/Strathclyde Celtic connections.
I would say closest to Wales. Or adjacent West Coast England. But there was some Irish input around 500AD or so - St Columba and so on into Argyll and thence into adjacent areas.

Perthshire - especially the Highland parts - should be Pictish.
So close to pre-AngloSaxon "England" ( I mean that geographic area now called England) and then Ireland and then post AngloSaxon England in declining connection.

Playingriffs
10-08-2018, 06:11 PM
Hello! I’m from east lothian and did the celtic vs germanic test recently so I dunno if this might be some help to you all? I seem so swing closest to north dutch, so..germanic. I also have my 23andme results here if it helps any.

100% european
British and irish (united kingdom): 68.4%
French and german: 12.8%
Scandinavian: 1.8%
Broadly northwest euro: 14.3%
Broadly euro: 2.7%

I tried to post images but the forum won’t let me.

Dewsloth
10-08-2018, 07:18 PM
I'm not sure why the argument for U106 being in Britain prior to the Germanc settlements keeps popping up. The evidence for U106 being strongly associated with Germanic areas is quite high.

I still think we need more aDNA for I1 to see how strongly associated these two haplogroups might be...

Although, just to confuse things, look where U106 6drif-3 and 3drif-16 plot on that Germanic v. Celtic PCA.


https://i.imgur.com/wDMHExL.png

sktibo
10-08-2018, 07:29 PM
Which would the following be closer to:

Lanarkshire
East/West/Midlothian
Fife
Angus
Perthshire

I don't want to answer that with certainty because we don't have data from those areas yet but will soon enough. My guess is that Fife is either going to match Aberdeenshire or Northumbria. Angus is probably closer to Aberdeenshire. IIRC someone with a lot of Lanarkshire ancestry actually got a lot lf Northumbria on living DNA.. But i have to guess a lot are closer to SW Scotland NI. Really don't know with Lothian. I'd guess Northumbria? Perthshire results appear to show NW Scotland, Aberdeenshire, and Northumbria on Living DNA. Perhaps being relatively central means it won't be well defined but who knows.
Aberdeenshire and Northumbria are closer to England, NW Scotland is closer to Ireland, SW Scotland can go either way.

Can't wait for the Scottish DNA study to come out. I doubt my guesses will be useful but I hope they are at least entertaining

JonikW
10-08-2018, 08:53 PM
Hello! I’m from east lothian and did the celtic vs germanic test recently so I dunno if this might be some help to you all? I seem so swing closest to north dutch, so..germanic. I also have my 23andme results here if it helps any.

100% european
British and irish (united kingdom): 68.4%
French and german: 12.8%
Scandinavian: 1.8%
Broadly northwest euro: 14.3%
Broadly euro: 2.7%

I tried to post images but the forum won’t let me.

Welcome to the forum. Can you post an image once you have ten posts under your belt? I'd be interested to see it. Thanks

Playingriffs
10-08-2018, 11:36 PM
Welcome to the forum. Can you post an image once you have ten posts under your belt? I'd be interested to see it. Thanks

Yeah I will and thanks. :-)

fridurich
10-09-2018, 03:16 AM
Due to much internal migration from 1750 on -
. Lowlands farming to Lowlands towns
. Highlands and Islands to Lowlands
. one part of the Lowlands to another
. Ireland to Lowlands towns
- it is really hard to comment on these locations reliably enough for the accuracy you are used to discussing in other threads.

Lanarkshire had input from all of these areas.
Midlothian too, but less Irish.
Perthshire had internal movement from Highland to Lowland areas.
Some of these Perth people having moved once, then moved again - to Fife.
Fifeshire also had internal migrations from Stirling and Clackmannan.
All of these I know about because some came to Australia and their descendants have told me about it, or I have found the links for them.

If you go back to 1700 and before, then we know that the Lothians were ruled at one stage by Angles, hence Scots language containing much of that influence. So, close to England.
Lanarkshire seems to have had local Celts. Who would probably have had Rheged/Cumbria/Strathclyde Celtic connections.
I would say closest to Wales. Or adjacent West Coast England. But there was some Irish input around 500AD or so - St Columba and so on into Argyll and thence into adjacent areas.

Perthshire - especially the Highland parts - should be Pictish.
So close to pre-AngloSaxon "England" ( I mean that geographic area now called England) and then Ireland and then post AngloSaxon England in declining connection.

I have no dispute with most of what you said and I know that any dna closeness written about between different groups on this thread is many times or mostly through autosomal Dna. However, concerning Perthshire, there is at least a little ydna closeness between Ireland and Perthshire. My last name is O’Hair and my O’Hair 4th cousin and I are confirmed M222...>S588>S603. Another O’Hair 4th cousin has just been confirmed S588 and hasn’t taken the S603 test yet. Our ancestor came from County Down in what is now Northern Ireland. On the Big Tree, there are 14 Robertsons who are S588. Yfull.com gives an origin date of about 1850 years ago for S588 and a mrca date of about 1500 years ago for S588. I don’t know how many of these Robertsons have actually tested positive for S603, but they are all listed downstream of it. So there is a ydna common ancestor for some Irish surnames including my own, and the 14 Robertsons (under S588 and S603 on the Big Tree). S588 appears to have quite a number of Irish surnames as well as quite a number of Scottish surnames in it. There is a snp downstream of S603 called fgc19832 that the 14 Robertsons are in, and I don’t know if they have enough data yet to know which branch of fgc19832 the Robertsons of Struan (Clann Donnachaidh) are. So whenever the Irish Dna Atlas people present their new analysis using the new 500 samples from mainland Scotland and the 250 from the Scottish Western Isles and the Isle of Man, it will be interesting to see how much their old PCA charts change, and how much autosomal closeness, or lack of it, there is between Perthshire and the Irish clusters. For now, we know there is at least a little common ydna ancestry some Perthshire Robertsons and a few other Scottish families have in common with some Irish families going back about 1,850 or 1,500 years ago.

Kind Regards
Fred

Jessie
10-09-2018, 04:01 AM
I have no dispute with most of what you said and I know that any dna closeness written about between different groups on this thread is many times or mostly through autosomal Dna. However, concerning Perthshire, there is at least a little ydna closeness between Ireland and Perthshire. My last name is O’Hair and my O’Hair 4th cousin and I are confirmed M222...>S588>S603. Another O’Hair 4th cousin has just been confirmed S588 and hasn’t taken the S603 test yet. Our ancestor came from County Down in what is now Northern Ireland. On the Big Tree, there are 14 Robertsons who are S588. Yfull.com gives an origin date of about 1850 years ago for S588 and a mrca date of about 1500 years ago for S588. I don’t know how many of these Robertsons have actually tested positive for S603, but they are all listed downstream of it. So there is a ydna common ancestor for some Irish surnames including my own, and the 14 Robertsons (under S588 and S603 on the Big Tree). S588 appears to have quite a number of Irish surnames as well as quite a number of Scottish surnames in it. There is a snp downstream of S603 called fgc19832 that the 14 Robertsons are in, and I don’t know if they have enough data yet to know which branch of fgc19832 the Robertsons of Struan (Clann Donnachaidh) are. So whenever the Irish Dna Atlas people present their new analysis using the new 500 samples from mainland Scotland and the 250 from the Scottish Western Isles and the Isle of Man, it will be interesting to see how much their old PCA charts change, and how much autosomal closeness, or lack of it, there is between Perthshire and the Irish clusters. For now, we know there is at least a little common ydna ancestry some Perthshire Robertsons and a few other Scottish families have in common with some Irish families going back about 1,850 or 1,500 years ago.

Kind Regards
Fred

Thanks Fred. As you know my paternal side is S588 as well. My brother has done the BigY but still at S588. They all appear to be Irish and Scottish in that subclade.

Saetro
10-09-2018, 11:23 PM
For now, we know there is at least a little common ydna ancestry some Perthshire Robertsons and a few other Scottish families have in common with some Irish families going back about 1,850 or 1,500 years ago.


I have M'Gregors from Perthshire and thereabouts and their ancestors so appreciate your comments.

M'Gregors were pushed off their land for not paying their rent in bad seasons and had to try to survive on Rannoch moor, which is usually described as fairly bleak.
Clan maps often have Robertsons in that area. They must have been tough to survive and thrive there.
Recently travelling with my wife through Britain, the subject of Robertsons arose from her cousins.
Surprisingly, my wife's Robertsons seem instead to have been Borderers - quite another kind of tough!

fridurich
10-10-2018, 03:09 AM
@Jessie - You are wecome. Yes I remember your brother is S588. Is it possible that he could find a male 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cousin with the same surname to take the Big Y? If so, there is a real chance they could have novel variants they share. It may be possible one of those could become a new branch of S588. @Saetro - How interesting to have McGregor ancestors. Are they related to the McGregors that the famous Rob Roy McGregor belonged to? I have always found Clan McGregor interesting. Seems like I remember hearing of Robertsons or Robinsons that were Borderers and I also find the Border Reivers interesting. Additionally I find much of Irish and Scottish history interesting, as well as other history.

Kind Regards
Fred

Jessie
10-10-2018, 04:32 AM
@Jessie - You are wecome. Yes I remember your brother is S588. Is it possible that he could find a male 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cousin with the same surname to take the Big Y? If so, there is a real chance they could have novel variants they share. It may be possible one of those could become a new branch of S588. @Saetro - How interesting to have McGregor ancestors. Are they related to the McGregors that the famous Rob Roy McGregor belonged to? I have always found Clan McGregor interesting. Seems like I remember hearing of Robertsons or Robinsons that were Borderers and I also find the Border Reivers interesting. Additionally I find much of Irish and Scottish history interesting, as well as other history.

Kind Regards
Fred

My father's family all left their town in Roscommon. Their descendents are in Wales, England, US and Australia. Possibly I might be able to track some in Ireland. Something to look at when I go to Ireland in the next couple of years.