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View Full Version : U152 STRs, matches, genetic distance, clusters, conversion, etc.



mafe
10-24-2013, 03:18 PM
FTDNA shows me 5 exact matches at 12 markers, 3 two step matches at 25 markers, and 0 matches at 37 and 67 markers.

I have always considered these matches a result of conversion, especially as they didn't show up at Ysearch.

Recently I found out that one of these matches is a 30/37 match, the differences are at the faster changing markers. I haven't contacted this match because a google search showed me he passed away in 2012. He is part of a surname project.

He might not be a close match, but if he is U152+ he would definitely be my closest U152+ match.

What are your thoughts about this? The Ysearch IDs for both haplotypes are: KGRJ3, QCUZR

Rathna
10-24-2013, 03:40 PM
FTDNA shows me 5 exact matches at 12 markers, 3 two step matches at 25 markers, and 0 matches at 37 and 67 markers.

I have always considered these matches a result of conversion, especially as they didn't show up at Ysearch.

Recently I found out that one of these matches is a 30/37 match, the differences are at the faster changing markers. I haven't contacted this match because a google search showed me he passed away in 2012. He is part of a surname project.

He might not be a close match, but if he is U152+ he would definitely be my closest U152+ match.

What are your thoughts about this? The Ysearch IDs for both haplotypes are: KGRJ3, QCUZR

I think that KGRJ3 and QCUZR are closely related, and, further, also to HS8HH and others. The comparison with HS8HH may let you understand which mutations you had after the separation.
There are same rare mutations like DYS463=22, DYS572=10, probably you all had from ancient times DYS19=15 etc.
Probably DYS393=14 from 13, DYS392=14 from 13, DYS437=14 from 15, H4=10 from 11 etc. are recent mutations.

I didn't discard these matches on 12 markers, seen these rare values:
D3KU8 Watts USA
14 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
PH3GG Ames Unknown
14 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
X3C2C Watts Unknown
14 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29

Solothurn
10-24-2013, 03:51 PM
One of my 60 of 67 is in fact 30 of 37!

Wear, ysearch D8E7S. Common ancestor said to be 1,000-1,100 AD based on STRs :)



FTDNA shows me 5 exact matches at 12 markers, 3 two step matches at 25 markers, and 0 matches at 37 and 67 markers.

I have always considered these matches a result of conversion, especially as they didn't show up at Ysearch.

Recently I found out that one of these matches is a 30/37 match, the differences are at the faster changing markers. I haven't contacted this match because a google search showed me he passed away in 2012. He is part of a surname project.

He might not be a close match, but if he is U152+ he would definitely be my closest U152+ match.

What are your thoughts about this? The Ysearch IDs for both haplotypes are: KGRJ3, QCUZR

mafe
10-24-2013, 04:02 PM
@Rathna,

HS8HH is confirmed L2> Z49> Z142 (L594-). KGRJ3 is confirmed U152*.

Ames is a two step match at 25 markers and doesn't show up at 37, unfortunately Ysearch only shows 12 markers.


@Solothurn,

I'm jealous of your 1066 cluster! haha. I wonder if there is a way to test him for U152. Maybe the project admin. has access to his account.

Rathna
10-24-2013, 04:26 PM
@Rathna,

HS8HH is confirmed L2> Z49> Z142 (L594-). KGRJ3 is confirmed U152*.

Ames is a two step match at 25 markers and doesn't show up at 37, unfortunately Ysearch only shows 12 markers.


Of course the mutations between KGRJ3 and HS8HH didn't happen in a few days and R-L2 has descended sometime from A R-U152*. Also KGRJ3 will have its SNPs. Of course KGRJ3 is an outlier for its mutations.

Rathna
10-24-2013, 04:34 PM
This is the distribution of this haplotype to-day. Exclude those who are DYS438=10, who are R1a:

3 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 10 10 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 13 15 19 16 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831
1 of 216 Alicante, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 84 Pardubice, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 145 Riga, Latvia [Latvian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 305 Lviv, Ukraine [Ukrainian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 50 Limburg, Netherlands [Dutch] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

haleaton
10-24-2013, 04:38 PM
Slightly off topic, but I always wonder if the STR test marker could be better ordered in sequence so there could be a lower cost smaller set either in general or optimized for U-152? It would confuse things to rearrange, though.

Rathna
10-24-2013, 04:41 PM
Very meaningful for me is that the closer is from Alicante, Spain, and is an outlier:

1 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 13 15 19 16 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY1083
1 of 216 Alicante, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

mafe
10-24-2013, 07:34 PM
This is the distribution of this haplotype to-day. Exclude those who are DYS438=10, who are R1a:

3 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 10 10 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 13 15 19 16 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831
1 of 216 Alicante, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 84 Pardubice, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 145 Riga, Latvia [Latvian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 305 Lviv, Ukraine [Ukrainian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 50 Limburg, Netherlands [Dutch] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

Could it be that the last one is KGRJ3 (yours truly), or is this from a database without FTDNA data?

Rathna
10-24-2013, 08:27 PM
Could it be that the last one is KGRJ3 (yours truly), or is this from a database without FTDNA data?

As this haplotype belongs to one Czech
1 15 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 10 10 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.
1 of 84 Pardubice, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

who is the R1a1a etc., to the first haplotype belong the other three, and, as probably also the Latvian and the Ukrainian are more likely R1a than R1b, I'd say that the Dutch has an haplotype similar to KGRJ3, but it is unlikely they are the same person. He is one of the 50 people tested by
Name Peter de Knijff, Thirsa Kraaijenbrink (YC000009)
Address Forensic Laboratory for DNA Research
Department of Human Genetics
Leiden University Medical Center
POBox 9600
2300 RC Leiden
The Netherlands
Email [email protected]
Phone +31 71 526 9540
Fax +31 71 526 8278
QC since 1999-02-14
Accession Number YA002899
Contribution 50 haplotypes
Reference

As this haplotype is restricted to Western Europe and is present also in Spain, and as I am the theorist of the Italian Refugium and think that R-U152 is Italian in its origin, and as Alicante is in the Region near Valencia where landed the first agriculturalists from Italy 75000 years ago, by sea, and is also one of the zones of Spain which retain the R-L51, I think born in Italy, I think to can say that this haplotype has its origin in Italy. In Belgium and the Isles may have come also carried by Roman Soldiers coming from Spain (or Italy) more than the Eastern Roman Empire. So also your avatar is satisfied.

mafe
10-25-2013, 09:25 AM
I would like to know if QCUZR has matches at 37 markers. Is it possible for a surname project admin to access his account?

Rathna
10-25-2013, 09:44 AM
Could it be that the last one is KGRJ3 (yours truly), or is this from a database without FTDNA data?

If you are KGRJ3, you should know if you participated to the research of

Name Peter de Knijff, Thirsa Kraaijenbrink (YC000009)
Address Forensic Laboratory for DNA Research
Department of Human Genetics
Leiden University Medical Center
POBox 9600
2300 RC Leiden
The Netherlands
Email [email protected]

Rathna
10-25-2013, 09:47 AM
I would like to know if QCUZR has matches at 37 markers. Is it possible for a surname project admin to access his account?

You may write to him by his FTDNA account on Ysearch.

mafe
10-25-2013, 10:09 AM
If you are KGRJ3, you should know if you participated to the research of

Name Peter de Knijff, Thirsa Kraaijenbrink (YC000009)
Address Forensic Laboratory for DNA Research
Department of Human Genetics
Leiden University Medical Center
POBox 9600
2300 RC Leiden
The Netherlands
Email [email protected]

I haven't, maybe a relative has.


You may write to him by his FTDNA account on Ysearch.

I think he passed away in 2012 so I'm trying to find out more without having to contact "him".

Rathna
10-25-2013, 11:45 AM
I haven't, maybe a relative has.


He could be also a far relative of yours. To match in these few markers may also mean a relatedness of 1000 or more years ago, till the probable introgression from a Roman soldier. Anyway it is interesting that you probably have many people linked to you, even thousands if one sprang out at a percentage of 2% on average.

mafe
10-28-2013, 11:41 AM
I did some more research:

A= 31/37 GD:6 match with B
A= 36/37 GD:1 match with C
A= 36/37 GD:1 match with D

B= 31/37 GD:6 match with A
B= 30/37 GD:7 match with C
B= 30/37 GD:7 match with D (GD:8 @67)

C= 36/37 GD:1 match with A
C= 30/37 GD:7 match with B
C= 35/37 GD:2 match with D

D= 36/37 GD:1 match with A
D= 30/37 GD:7 match with B (GD:8 @67)
D= 35/37 GD:2 match with C

See attachment for comparison. (different order than above)

Bolgeris
10-28-2013, 08:48 PM
Please see the Bolgeri project..
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bolgeri/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
The differences between me Belgieri and others Belgeri or Bolgeri ..
are similar..
I think a MRCA when born the "Bolgeri" surname in Italy ... 1200?!?
mah..!

mafe
10-29-2013, 09:15 AM
Please see the Bolgeri project..
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bolgeri/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
The differences between me Belgieri and others Belgeri or Bolgeri ..
are similar..
I think a MRCA when born the "Bolgeri" surname in Italy ... 1200?!?
mah..!

Thanks, this gives me hope that my three matches are U152+, but because I'm an outlier they could also be L21>DF13>DF41. I want to make sure they have a reasonable chance of testing positive for U152 before I contact them.

mafe
10-30-2013, 10:45 AM
I have contacted my matches, hopefully they will reply and test for U152.


Update: one match replied and will test for U152.

Update 2: another match replied and has ordered U152.

mafe
11-29-2013, 09:37 AM
I have contacted my matches, hopefully they will reply and test for U152.


Update: one match replied and will test for U152.

Update 2: another match replied and has ordered U152.


One of my matches has received his results and he is U152+ :beerchug:, this is very exciting, he's a 59/67 match (GD:8), this is quite a leap forward because my closest match in the U152 project has got a GD of 18.

Solothurn
11-29-2013, 11:43 AM
:beerchug:


One of my matches has received his results and he is U152+ :beerchug:, this is very exciting, he's a 59/67 match (GD:8), this is quite a leap forward because my closest match in the U152 project has got a GD of 18.

Solothurn
11-29-2013, 11:45 AM
Where is his ancestry from?


One of my matches has received his results and he is U152+ :beerchug:, this is very exciting, he's a 59/67 match (GD:8), this is quite a leap forward because my closest match in the U152 project has got a GD of 18.

mafe
11-29-2013, 12:49 PM
Where is his ancestry from?

Unknown, but his two closest matches GD 1 and 2 @37, have got British surnames. He might have more matches but I only asked about the matches that we share.

There are two Y-DNA12 matches that I'm going to contact once the results of the other match are in. These two Y-DNA12 kits share the same British surname.

This might turn out to be a British cluster, which is interesting, the surname of my earliest known ancestors are both Engelen and Engels, a patronym derived from the German given name "Engel"....but "Engels" is also the Dutch word for "English".

MitchellSince1893
11-29-2013, 04:07 PM
That is a nice jump.

My closest U152 matches are GD of:
6 at 37 markers
13 at 67 markers
25 at 111 markers

mafe
12-03-2013, 01:23 PM
Who can I contact to do some TMRCA calculations for my little "cluster"? (4 people, 3 of them only have a difference in CDY)

Solothurn
12-04-2013, 03:12 PM
Hi mafe

www.dnacalculator.org
I don't know how it compares to manual calcs though :)

mafe
12-04-2013, 04:18 PM
Thanks Solothurn,

I have tried these calculators and FTDNATiP, they all seem a bit generic to me. There must be a difference between modal and outlier haplotypes when it comes to TMRCA calculations. Especially if matches share a number of uncommon STR values.

If privacy wasn't an issue, I would put all the haplotypes on here.

Solothurn
12-04-2013, 06:26 PM
Tibor was great at this, but don't know if he still does it!

You could always ask him or Steve Gilbert. Their emails are on the U152 homepage.

Mutation rates link Here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNYmQxODY4MWUtYjE3OC00MTA2LTk1YjMtNWM3Y WM0YmNmMGE1/edit?hl=en&pli=1)



Thanks Solothurn,

I have tried these calculators and FTDNATiP, they all seem a bit generic to me. There must be a difference between modal and outlier haplotypes when it comes to TMRCA calculations. Especially if matches share a number of uncommon STR values.

If privacy wasn't an issue, I would put all the haplotypes on here.

MitchellSince1893
12-06-2013, 12:20 AM
I assume you are familiar with http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

It has a TMRCA feature.

mafe
12-08-2013, 07:27 PM
Tibor was great at this, but don't know if he still does it!

You could always ask him or Steve Gilbert. Their emails are on the U152 homepage.

Mutation rates link Here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNYmQxODY4MWUtYjE3OC00MTA2LTk1YjMtNWM3Y WM0YmNmMGE1/edit?hl=en&pli=1)

Thanks, I will contact him once the results of the other SNP test are in.


I assume you are familiar with http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

It has a TMRCA feature.

I have had a look at it, but haven't tried it yet. I don't know how reliable these calculators are, and how much "reading between the lines" there is involved in giving a realistic TMRCA estimate.