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View Full Version : R-Z2103 & Early R1b, an Enigma of Western Europe



Joe B
10-24-2013, 06:46 PM
Finding the R-Z2103 subclade in western Europe is rare and unexpected. Wasn’t it called the Armenian Modal Haplotype or ht35 characterized by DYS393=12? How did R-Z2103 end up in Martaizé, France (Terriot) or Newport Wales (Llewellyn) and when? The purpose of this tread is to explore how R-Z2103 and other early R1b subclades ended up in Western Europe and dare I say, the American Colonies.
The Border Reiver project (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/dnasarmatian-reivers.htm) took a hard look at “HT35” around 2005 and come up with a hypothesis.

This webpage is part of a collaboration between James V. Elliott, David B. Strong, and others in researching the origins of DYS393=12 as it occurs along the Anglo-Scottish Border region. Our hypothesis: Some of us have roots in a West Asian population in an identifiable subclade of R1b, which somehow got to the Anglo-Scottish border area and on to Ulster.

The key to the Haplotype 35 hypothesis lies in establishing the area from, say, Lancashire to Galloway as a convergence zone for multiple groups with an ultimately eastern European or Eurasian origin. The Turks, Greeks and Sarmatians who served in the Roman Army; Normans descended from Alans, Visigoths, Sephardim, etc.; and, of course, the Norwegian Vikings. Probably all of these groups had a present-day influence, and each of them was in their own time, no doubt, compounded from multiple Y-DNA haplogroups even 2,000 years ago. If we can correlate a relatively high frequency of Haplotype 35 with equally elevated frequencies of, say, J2 or I1a or R1a and/or other potentially eastern European haplogroups or sub-clades, it seems that would only help our argument. On the other hand, if it turns out that Haplotype 35 shows up most often only with AMH or other Haplotype R1b's, then skeptics could easily claim that the "Haplotype 35" occurrences were just coincidental, due entirely to genetic drift or divergence from the "AMH".
The Border Reiver project did a great job with what they had to work with. We benefit from a lot more data, snp testing with a far better phylogenetic tree and some really smart people on this forum. We know that DYS393=12 is far to limiting for R-Z2103 with examples of DYS393=11, 12, 13 and maybe even 14. Another advantage to looking at Z2103 in Western Europe and in particular Ireland and Great Britain, are some really good surname projects. It would be nice to leverage all the surname work and extensive testing know-how from the Isles to learn more about this enigma of the west, R-Z2103.
The reality of R-Z2103 in western Europe probably can’t be answered with just the Romans or Normans.
How did R-Z2103 & Early R1b subclades end up in the Western Europe?

Here are some links to the Border Reivers past work.
Border Reivers DNA Study (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/dnasarmatian-reivers.htm)
2008 Border Reivers Update (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/r1b%20snps%20and%20subclades.htm)
Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35) (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm)

Silesian
10-24-2013, 06:57 PM
Some have suggested Alan/Iranian units. I'm still trying to figure out if a warrior with R1b wearing a dress & playing the bagpipes, in the mountains and plateau's can be related to ancient Vlachs/ Armenians/Anatolians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIlBIVJYNs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_LHInZzHEc

R.Rocca
10-24-2013, 07:02 PM
Finding the R-Z2103 subclade in western Europe is rare and unexpected. Wasn’t it called the Armenian Modal Haplotype or ht35, characterized by DYS393=12? How did R-Z2103 end up in Martaizé, France (Terriot) or Newport Wales (Llewellyn) and when? The purpose of this tread is to explore how R-Z2103 and other early R1b subclades ended up in Western Europe and dare I say, the American Colonies.
The Border Reiver project (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/dnasarmatian-reivers.htm) took a hard look at “HT35” around 2005 and come up with a hypothesis.


The Border Reiver project did a great job with what they had to work with. We benefit from a lot more data, snp testing with a far better phylogenetic tree and some really smart people on this forum. We know that DYS393=12 is far to limiting for R-Z2103 with examples of DYS393=11, 12, 13 and maybe even 14. Another advantage to looking at Z2103 in Western Europe and in particular Ireland and Great Britain, are some really good surname projects. It would be nice to leverage all the surname work and extensive testing know-how from the Isles to learn more about this enigma of the west, R-Z2103.
The reality of R-Z2103 in western Europe probably can’t be answered with just the Romans or Normans.
How did R-Z2103 & Early R1b subclades end up in the Western Europe?

Here are some links to the Border Reivers past work.
Border Reivers DNA Study (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/dnasarmatian-reivers.htm)
2008 Border Reivers Update (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegalstrongs/r1b%20snps%20and%20subclades.htm)
Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35) (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm)

If Z2103 is as rare in Britain as it seems to be, it may not have been a part of a major migration. Instead, it may be the result of unrelated Z2103 men migrating into Britain over a long period of time, perhaps thousands of years. Is there anything in their STR that makes them different than continental Z2103?

Joe B
10-24-2013, 08:13 PM
Some have suggested Alan/Iranian units. I'm still trying to figure out if a warrior with R1b wearing a dress & playing the bagpipes, in the mountains and plateau's can be related to ancient Vlachs/ Armenians/Anatolians.
I have linked to bagpipes before. See the Lounge (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1383-The-What-Are-You-Listening-To-Thread/page2) #14.

I think the Alans and others may have been to Britain with the Romans. Can we prove it with y-dna?

AJL
10-24-2013, 08:28 PM
I have linked to bagpipes before. See the Lounge (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1383-The-What-Are-You-Listening-To-Thread/page2) #14.

I think the Alans and others may have been to Britain with the Romans. Can we prove it with y-dna?

There is a possible link within R1a, specifically the rare R1a-Z93* and R1a-Z94* paragroups, and there may be a trace of Dacians in the E-V13 along the Borders/Cumbria.

Joe B
10-24-2013, 09:08 PM
If Z2103 is as rare in Britain as it seems to be, it may not have been a part of a major migration. Instead, it may be the result of unrelated Z2103 men migrating into Britain over a long period of time, perhaps thousands of years. Is there anything in their STR that makes them different than continental Z2103?
That's a big "if" regarding how rare is Z2103 in Britain. It is rare yet we have hundreds of kits that meet the ht35 criteria that are not snp tested. In the Isles for DYS393=12 it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21. One of my goals with this thread is to raise the noise level of some surname projects to shame them to snp test for Z2103 along with L277 and L584.

It really does look like many different migrations to the isles. Likely it started with the Romans if those lines survived. The Normans seem like very good candidates too. One group that has not been looked at enough are the Poles. We have immigration to Britain from Poland starting with Canute the Great in 1015 and Polish Merchant travelers in the 16th century that may explain some colonial Z2103.

To my rookie eye, a few str groups show up. The one that jumped out at me (because I have it) is the DYS460=10, YCAll=18 and DYS640=12 complex.
Sorting by the 10 str loci that *Grugni et al. used in their Iranian Y-DNA study.
DYS19>DYS388>DYS389I/II>DYS390>DYS391>DYS392>DYS393>DYS439>DYS460>YCAII b/YCAIIa
Doing so the DYS640=12 value really sticks out. Surnames include Robins (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/robins/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), Grant (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Grant/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), Smith (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Smiths/default.aspx?vgroup=Smiths&vgroup=Smiths&section=ycolorized), Carter (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/carter/default.aspx?section=yresults) and Llewellyn (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Llewellyn_Lewellen_Lewallen_Lewelling/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). Mike's work with the R1b Early Subclades spreadsheet and Speculative Varieties should help us tease out those strs.

SNP wise we need testing. Of note are O'Donnell (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ODonnell/default.aspx?section=yresults) (282121) or Ireland and White (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/white/default.aspx?vgroup=white&section=ycolorized) (N57861) of unknown that are L150.? PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563+. Another one worth watching is L23+, L150- or L150.2 that includes Seymour (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/seymour/results) (108347) of Sawbridgeworth. He does test L23+, L150- and Z2103+, Z2105+, L277- and L584-.

AJL
10-24-2013, 09:12 PM
One group that has not been looked at enough are the Poles. We have immigration to Britain from Poland starting with Canute the Great in 1015 and Polish Merchant travelers in the 16th century that may explain some colonial Z2103.

That is possible and I would add that it is also useful to consider that some areas where Saxons, Jutes, Angles were from are not at all distant to Poland.

R.Rocca
10-24-2013, 09:17 PM
That's a big "if" regarding how rare is Z2103 in Britain. It is rare yet we have hundreds of kits that would meet the ht35 criteria yet are not snp tested. In the Isles it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21. One of my goals with this thread is to raise the noise level of some surname projects to shame them to snp test for Z2103 along with L277 and L584.
It really does look like many different migrations to the isles, likely starting with the Romans, if those lines survived. The Normans seem like very good canidates too. One group that has not been looked at enough are the Poles. We have immigration to Britain from Poland starting with Canute the Great in 1015 and Polish Merchant travelers in the 16th century that may explain some colonial Z2103.
To my rookie eye, a few str groups show up. The one that jumped out at me (because I have it) is the YCAll=18, DYS460=10 and DYS640=12 complex.
I like to sort using the 10 str loci that *Grugni et al. used in their Iranian Y-DNA study.
DYS19>DYS388>DYS389I/II>DYS390>DYS391>DYS392>DYS393>DYS439>DYS460>YCAII b/YCAIIa
Doing so the DYS640=12 value really sticks out. Surnames include Robins (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/robins/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), Grant (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Grant/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), Smith (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Smiths/default.aspx?vgroup=Smiths&vgroup=Smiths§ion=ycolorized), Carter (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/carter/default.aspx?section=yresults) and Llewellyn (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Llewellyn_Lewellen_Lewallen_Lewelling/default.aspx?section=ycolorized).

Can I ask how many confirmed Z2103+ or L23(xL51) kit there are?

TigerMW
10-24-2013, 09:46 PM
That's a big "if" regarding how rare is Z2103 in Britain. It is rare yet we have hundreds of kits that would meet the ht35 criteria yet are not snp tested. In the Isles it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21. One of my goals with this thread is to raise the noise level of some surname projects to shame them to snp test for Z2103 along with L277 and L584.
...
Are you saying its 50/50 that the people who have the ht35 STR pattern are Z2103 vs L21?

One of the reasons my general recommendation in the R1b project is to get Geno 2 is that it is the safe way to get at least close to your public terminal SNP.

Joe B
10-24-2013, 10:02 PM
Are you saying its 50/50 that the people who have the ht35 STR pattern are Z2103 vs L21?
One of the reasons my general recommendation in the R1b project is to get Geno 2 is that it is the safe way to get at least close to your public terminal SNP.That was sloppy writing and I have changed it.

we have hundreds of kits that meet the ht35 criteria that are not snp tested. In the Isles for DYS393=12 it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21.
The 50/50 is based on my own experience. It could be 70/30 in favor of L21 by the time you get to Ireland. I don't really know. Until the deep clade was done, it was just as likely L21+ would have been my result instead of L150+. I agree that Geno2.0 is the best choice when no snp testing has been done. I want to tow the line and follow your recommendations regarding snp and str testing. They make sense.
We do need to move people to test for Z2103 too. I would suggest that in some of these surname projects that starting out with Z2103 might be appropriate. Again, I'm a rookie and just want to help with guidance.

Joe B
10-24-2013, 10:47 PM
Can I ask how many confirmed Z2103+ or L23(xL51) kit there are?
The total number of kits tested Z2103+ is about 25 to 30. Looking at the R1b Early spreadsheet, confirmed L23(xL51) number is around 375. These are very rough numbers. Hopefully somebody has a better handle on this than me.

TigerMW
10-25-2013, 12:48 AM
.... I agree that Geno2.0 is the best choice when no snp testing has been done. I want to tow the line and follow your recommendations regarding snp and str testing. They make sense.
We do need to move people to test for Z2103 too.....

I don't think there is any particular line to tow. Geno 2 is just the safe way (for FTDNA customers) to be sure to get something out of your testing money. I'm assuming things like Z2103, L584, L277 and Z2115 are in Geno 2. They are, aren't they?

I would say we shouldn't rely on 393=12 too much in the Isles. There are a lot of L11+ folks of one type or another with 393=12. I just did a count and I can find 226 L21+ with 393=12 and 4 with 393=11.

We need to do the SNP testing. From your perspective, as long as the Z2103 set is included, Geno 2 is probably what you want to push. By sheer numbers, Irish, Scots and Brits will be looking elsewhere.

Joe B
10-25-2013, 01:44 AM
I don't think there is any particular line to tow. Geno 2 is just the safe way (for FTDNA customers) to be sure to get something out of your testing money. I'm assuming things like Z2103, L584, L277 and Z2115 are in Geno 2. They are, aren't they?

I would say we shouldn't rely on 393=12 too much in the Isles. There are a lot of L11+ folks of one type or another with 393=12. I just did a count and I can find 226 L21+ with 393=12 and 4 with 393=11.

We need to do the SNP testing. From your perspective, as long as the Z2103 set is included, Geno 2 is probably what you want to push. By sheer numbers, Irish, Scots and Brits will be looking elsewhere.
Z2103, Z2105, L277, L584 and L943 are not on the Geno2.0 chip. I don't know about Z2115. Geno2.0 does test for Z2110 CTS7822. So far those individuals that are CTS7822+ and tested for Z2103 or Z2105 have had positive results for Z2103 or Z2105. For kits that tested CTS7822+, Geno2.0 labels them CTS7822. When the data is transferred to FTDNA, they are relabeled L150.

What about asking all Geno2.0 L150 or CTS7822 haplotypes to test for Z2103 and advance them towards a terminal snp? The same should be asked for everybody tested to R1b1a2a/L23 or R1b1a2a1/L150, test for Z2103 and beyond.

I'm hoping we can leverage the huge sampling of Irish, Scots and Brits to our advantage. We have a few surname projects to work with. They just need better snp testing to comfirm their haplotype. Can something be done with str variance within a surname project?

Tow the line did sound a little political. How about a short leash for myself?

Silesian
10-25-2013, 05:52 AM
I have linked to bagpipes before. See the Lounge (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1383-The-What-Are-You-Listening-To-Thread/page2) #14.

I think the Alans and others may have been to Britain with the Romans. Can we prove it with y-dna?

Richard is right, we really can't tell with 100% certainty. We don't even have a complete breakdown of Kromsdorf R1B and King Tuts results are under lock and key, having never been made officially public. It is pretty safe to say that in our region Germany/Poland the oldest would be the Pardubice U98vt [1180 ce Czech ] which is not far from my paternal family is from Gliwice/Gleiwitz- Silesia. We don't have any ancient samples from Britain. However, we do have evidence Z2103/is found among the Ossets and it could be related to some of the Jasz people.

The Jasz people were a nomadic Sarmatian tribe which settled in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary during the 13th century.[1] Their name is almost certainly related to that of the Iazyges, one of the Sarmatian Alanic tribes which, along with the Roxolani, reached the borders of Dacia during the late 1st century BC (the city of Iași is named for them). Residual elements of these tribes, ancestors of the Jasz people, remained behind in the central North Caucasus, mingling with Caucasian peoples to form the present-day Ossetes.


However we cannot say with any certainty if there is a connection with Alans being in the Roman army, stationed in Britain.


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=yresults

Ossetians IE (Iranian, NE) 47N 42.6%[25] Rosser et al. (2000

Rathna
10-25-2013, 06:51 AM
Geno2.0 does test for Z2110 CTS7822 and so far those individuals that have tested for Z2103 or Z2105 are positive.

It isn't true that all the R-Z2103/Z2105+ tested for Geno 2.0 are also CTS7822/Z2110+. The Morley's tree shows which are positive and which not.

!!!!1R1b1a2a2 Z2103/CTS1078 [19/19], Z2105 [28/28]
1901
!!!!!!!!
!127630
?, 134236
?, 140135
?, 14386
?, 145692
?, 159888
?, 164229
?, 16910
?, 185782
?, 257842
?, 47778
?, 64409
?, 82745
?, 84950
?, 99230
?, E12439
?, N23635
?,
N66406
?
1902 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2a CTS1848 [1/3], L584 [9/9], PF3449 [1/3], PF7580 [3/3]
1903 !!!!!!!!!152974, 166322, 166323, 182984, 235098, 45475, 87265, 92187, N10795, N113044, N93831
1904 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2b L277 [6/6], L479 [1/1] (no nearby negative results)
1905 !!!!!!!!!159189, 177152, 195191, 234905, 95875, N97723
1906
!!!!!!!!
?!1R1b1a2a2c L150/PF6274
bR
1907 !!!!!!!!!108347, N37658
1908 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2–14 CTS7763 [1/1], CTS8966 [1/1]
1909 !!!!!!!!!164226

Only these samples are positive:
1910 !!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–14 CTS7822 [7/7]
1911 !!!!!!!!247019, N115176, N29277
1912 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–1–1 CTS9219 [4/4]
1913 !!!!!!!!!257843, N112689, N114393, N115142

Joe B
10-25-2013, 03:30 PM
It isn't true that all the R-Z2103/Z2105+ tested for Geno 2.0 are also CTS7822/Z2110+.

You are right. Let me clarify with better wording. Had I been your student, my writing would be better.:)

Geno2.0 does test for Z2110 CTS7822. So far those individuals that are CTS7822+ and tested for Z2103 or Z2105 have had positive results for Z2103 or Z2105
Regardless, getting individuals that are Geno2.0 L150 or CTS7822 to test for Z2103 and hopefully L277 and L584 should be a goal. I would not be surprised if in the future this changes for CTS7822+ haplotypes.

Rathna
10-25-2013, 03:36 PM
You are right. Let me clarify with better wording.

Regardless, getting individuals that are Geno2.0 L150 or CTS7822 to test for Z2103 and hopefully L277 and L584 should be a goal. I would not be surprised if in the future this changes for CTS7822+ haplotypes.

I apologize for my scarcity in English but I didn't understand your statement. Richard Rocca has the proofs that there are some SNPs between R-Z2103/Z2105+ and CTS7822/Z2110, then all these are subclades of R-Z2103/Z2105+.

Joe B
10-25-2013, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by AJL on the Norman (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1454-The-Normans/page5) thread
It would be good to get as precise a map as possible of the Z2103 in Britain. It might correspond to areas with Roman soldiers, say.

Last March I got my snp results confirming Z2103+ and my frist thought was The Romans. It actually sent a bit of a chill through me. My dad took me to see a Roman quarry near his hometown. It's called Felsenmeer Lautertal Odenwald (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felsenmeer_%28Lautertal%29), or to a 13 year kid four plus decades ago, a big field of rocks. Use google translate this page.

The Romans had a very strong presence this area due to the Limes Germanicus. This crude map was made last March overlaying kits that are L584+, L277+ or Z2105+/L277-L584- over a US Military map of Roman defenses. Quickly came to the conclusion that the story of Z2103+ in Western Europe is a lot more complicated than the Romans.
831832

The Romans are a great place to start. They must of had something to do with some of the spread of Z2103 and other early R1b subcades to the west. How much and from where? Hopefully I can get a map put together for Britain with some data points and Roman fortifications.

I can not imagine how hard the work must have been at a Roman quarry.
1964 soldiers "try" to lift the giant pillar.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Riesens%C3%A4ule-1964.tif/lossy-page1-401px-Riesens%C3%A4ule-1964.tif.jpg

smal
10-25-2013, 08:14 PM
It isn't true that all the R-Z2103/Z2105+ tested for Geno 2.0 are also CTS7822/Z2110+. The Morley's tree shows which are positive and which not.

!!!!1R1b1a2a2 Z2103/CTS1078 [19/19], Z2105 [28/28]
1901
!!!!!!!!
!127630
?, 134236
?, 140135
?, 14386
?, 145692
?, 159888
?, 164229
?, 16910
?, 185782
?, 257842
?, 47778
?, 64409
?, 82745
?, 84950
?, 99230
?, E12439
?, N23635
?,
N66406
?
1902 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2a CTS1848 [1/3], L584 [9/9], PF3449 [1/3], PF7580 [3/3]
1903 !!!!!!!!!152974, 166322, 166323, 182984, 235098, 45475, 87265, 92187, N10795, N113044, N93831
1904 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2b L277 [6/6], L479 [1/1] (no nearby negative results)
1905 !!!!!!!!!159189, 177152, 195191, 234905, 95875, N97723
1906
!!!!!!!!
?!1R1b1a2a2c L150/PF6274
bR
1907 !!!!!!!!!108347, N37658
1908 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2–14 CTS7763 [1/1], CTS8966 [1/1]
1909 !!!!!!!!!164226

Only these samples are positive:
1910 !!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–14 CTS7822 [7/7]
1911 !!!!!!!!247019, N115176, N29277
1912 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–1–1 CTS9219 [4/4]
1913 !!!!!!!!!257843, N112689, N114393, N115142

The red kits are NOT tested for Geno 2.0. Only 5 samples are the CTS7822 negative.

Silesian
10-26-2013, 11:15 PM
831

Rough contrast using members listing country of origin such as U.K. 10+/-. part of Ht-35 project. Fertile Crescent -Anatolian-Armenian-Iranian plateau and Roman soldiers garrisons.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=results

843

Joe B
10-27-2013, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Silesian
Rough contrast using members listing country of origin such as U.K. 10+/-. part of Ht-35 project. Fertile Crescent -Anatolian-Armenian-Iranian plateau and Roman soldiers garrisons.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

Click image for larger version. Name: Screenshot (2).jpg Views: 2 Size: 102.8 KB ID: 843 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=843&d=1382879669)
My guess is that ~10% UK is a reflection of the relativily intensive sampling of the Isles. Hopefully that can be used to our advantage. Those numbers on your map, ~40% of the ht35 project Z2103+ coming from the Amenian - Anatolia - Iran and 3% from the fertile cresent, is interesting. I wonder if a more complete picture could be obtained from the new R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
Something to think about with the data. If all the "likely" Z2103 haplotypes in surname projects were in the ht35 project, we would be talking about a Z2103 refugium in England or the American Colonies. That's just a reflection of the customer database. And that's okay.

Silesian
10-27-2013, 07:10 PM
My guess is that ~10% UK is a reflection of the relativily intensive sampling of the Isles. Hopefully that can be used to our advantage. Those numbers on your map, ~40% of the ht35 project Z2103+ coming from the Amenian - Anatolia - Iran and 3% from the fertile cresent, is interesting. I wonder if a more complete picture could be obtained from the new R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
Something to think about with the data. If all the "likely" Z2103 haplotypes in surname projects were in the ht35 project, we would be talking about a Z2103 refugium in England or the American Colonies. That's just a reflection of the customer database. And that's okay.

Sorry that is 10+/- total not 10% in Uk in the Ht 35 list plus Gilpin and Robinson would notch it up a little. I hastily counted and combined Z2103*&277+L584+ the majority seem to be around the Zagros Fold mountains. If you tally Anatolian plateau+Armenian plateau and Iranian plateau there appears to be a dichotomy between Fertile Crescent; where the numbers seem to drop quite sharply. Perhaps combined with variance and older R1b clades might be able to point to a source. Also as Rathna pointed out Italy also has many older clades and has not really been fully tested. Also Nazarov the Cossak still has to be fully tested, he differs from our branch by quite a distance and so far has also been confirmed L584- perhaps he may also be of Iranian origin?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Zagros_Folded_Zone.jpg

Joe B
10-29-2013, 02:51 AM
There is a possible link within R1a, specifically the rare R1a-Z93* and R1a-Z94* paragroups, and there may be a trace of Dacians in the E-V13 along the Borders/Cumbria.
After having a look at the R1a1a and Subclades project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx) and seeing how difuse R1a-Z93 is in western Europe, I will defer to the Administrator of Z93 section, Asian subclades of that project.

This is a rough plot of Early R1b haplotypes over a map of Roman Britain roads and settlements. It is hard to make out any correlation to the Roman settlements. The lack of map locations and inadequate snp testing limits the data and hinders seeing a correlation to the Romans. Same question, shouldn't we be seeing more of the R1b early subclades in Britain after 2000 years after the Roman frist paid Britain a visit?
848

AJL
10-29-2013, 04:07 AM
There weren't that many Romans in Britain for that long, and most of them seem to have left. It's also hard to infer something from a low rate. If you have small isolated pockets of a fairly small and coherent cluster it is possible they are a few survivors of an older lineage, or that they date from Roman times. Essentially beyond a few thousand years, most lineages have died out. The TMRCA for such a cluster is of interest but can only hint at the founder.

Joe B
10-29-2013, 10:32 PM
There weren't that many Romans in Britain for that long, and most of them seem to have left. It's also hard to infer something from a low rate. If you have small isolated pockets of a fairly small and coherent cluster it is possible they are a few survivors of an older lineage, or that they date from Roman times. Essentially beyond a few thousand years, most lineages have died out. The TMRCA for such a cluster is of interest but can only hint at the founder.
Wonder how many "real" Romans there were in Britain? 400 years of occupation is something that had to leave a mark.
The Legio VI Victrix in Britain and the settlement of Alans cavalry at Bremetennacum fort in Lancashire is hard to ingnore. Have any dna studies been done in the village of Ribchester or Lancashire county?
I have a suspicion that the Alans, if they were carriers of R1b-Z2103 and other early R1b subclades, had a few more opportunities to settle in Western Europe as the Roman Empire ended and thereafter. Many myths/stories such as King Aurther seem to have some sort of connection to the Alans.
Now I just got a call from the Book Loft (http://www.bookloftsolvang.com/) and have to pick up a book called Ancestral Jouneys by Jean Manco. There are a few hints that this book may have some information about the Alans and other groups.

A loose change map of Roman Britain from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_Celts#Roman_era_and_Dark_Ages) and the Portable Antiquities Scheme (http://finds.org.uk/).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/All_Roman_coins_1997_-_2010_%282%29.jpg/486px-All_Roman_coins_1997_-_2010_%282%29.jpg

Joe B
11-26-2013, 06:17 PM
Several times on various threads high levels of "L23" in Switzerland have been noted. Sometimes in the context of ancient migration. Richard has posted a R1b-M269(23+) frequency map that shows a warm spot over the Liechtenstein - East Switzerland - West Austria area.
I would just note that in the FTDNA projects R1b-Z2103 in concentrated in the Swiss Anabaptist DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Anabaptist/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) and in the Burkholder - Burkhalter Surname Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Anabaptist/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) that are L277+. R1b-M269>Z2103>L277* R1b-Z2103 may be a fairly recent arrival.
Is there any other data about R1b-Z2103 in Switzerland?
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=973&d=1385469979

Humanist
12-13-2013, 06:23 AM
Two 25 marker matches between two Assyrian R-L584 men and Europeans. One of the European men traces his ancestry to Kendal, England. The other man has paternal roots in Austria. It would be great to test the samples for R-L584.

The location of Kendal, England:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/kendal_england.jpg

Rathna
12-13-2013, 07:07 AM
Two 25 marker matches between two Assyrian R-L584 men and Europeans. One of the European men traces his ancestry to Kendal, England. The other man has paternal roots in Austria. It would be great to test the samples for R-L584.


The Assyrian R-L584 are formed by three haplotypes
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 L584
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
clearly belonging to an unique one.
This haplotype with DYS393=12 is linked to these and could be their ancestor
12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
One is an outlier:
12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26 L584
with no close match on YHRD.
This haplotype (12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584) could be the ancestor of all the others and the closest to the modal. The closest to it on YHRD are these:
1 13 14 30 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 16 19 16 17 23 12 16 22 11 12 16 10 - >>
1 13 14 30 24 10 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 555 Beirut, Lebanon [Lebanese] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 291 Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

Rathna
12-13-2013, 10:18 AM
The Assyrian R-L584 are formed by three haplotypes
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 L584
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
clearly belonging to an unique one.
This haplotype with DYS393=12 is linked to these and could be their ancestor
12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
One is an outlier:
12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26 L584
with no close match on YHRD.
This haplotype (12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584) could be the ancestor of all the others and the closest to the modal. The closest to it on YHRD are these:
1 13 14 30 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 16 19 16 17 23 12 16 22 11 12 16 10 - >>
1 13 14 30 24 10 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 555 Beirut, Lebanon [Lebanese] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 291 Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

Of course you are right for having put all these samples (comprising the outlier) together.
They are all R-L584+. See these series of slow mutating markers:
8 10 10 8 11 11
11 13 11 11 12 12
which demonstrate (probably) that this cluster isn't older than 4,000/6,000 years.
Anyway, as I have said many times and as the smal's spreadsheet is demonstrating, these R-L277+ and R-L584+ presuppose the ancestral haplotypes of R-L23 not found so far in Middle East but in Europe.

Joe B
12-13-2013, 06:49 PM
Two 25 marker matches between two Assyrian R-L584 men and Europeans. One of the European men traces his ancestry to Kendal, England. The other man has paternal roots in Austria. It would be great to test the samples for R-L584.

The location of Kendal, England:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/kendal_england.jpg
Kendal was home to a Roman fort and that "Alans" theory. I still think any R1b-L584 or Z2103 in the Isles is a late arrival due to low numbers.
Austria has another whole set of ways for L584 to get there. Some more recent than others. Wonder why there isn't an Austrian Ftdna project.
We should see more L584+ in western europe with the confirmation of PF7580>L584 and future follow-up SNP testing.

nazarov
12-14-2013, 06:40 PM
after almost 2 months ftdna confirmed L277+ (L584-), (kit 223828), as far as i ustood no other snips can be tested yet or i'm wrong ? i wonder if L277+ takes me to the caspian sea shores from where i beleive my ancestors came from ...

Joe B
12-14-2013, 07:15 PM
after almost 2 months ftdna confirmed L277+ (L584-), (kit 223828), as far as i ustood no other snips can be tested yet or i'm wrong ? i wonder if L277+ takes me to the caspian sea shores from where i beleive my ancestors came from ...
Welcome nazarov!
I can not think of a better way to introduce yourself.
L277+ is a terminal SNP, so far. Next testing would be Full Genomes, Inc. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?742-Full-Y-Chromosome-Sequencing-Phase-III-Pilot&highlight=Full+Genomes+Corp) or FTDNA's Big Y (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1587-Will-you-be-ordering-the-FamilyTreeDNA-s-Big-Y-DNA-Test) if you want to discover new SNPs.
I occasionally make R1b-L277 maps. Not that good and simple. Which shore of the Caspian Sea should be marked? Or somewhere else?
Thanks for posting.
Map http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=575&d=1374820338
Current Early R1b Phylogenetic Tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405) or http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580&p=22598&viewfull=1#post22598

Humanist
12-14-2013, 10:14 PM
after almost 2 months ftdna confirmed L277+ (L584-), (kit 223828), as far as i ustood no other snips can be tested yet or i'm wrong ? i wonder if L277+ takes me to the caspian sea shores from where i beleive my ancestors came from ...


Welcome nazarov!
I can not think of a better way to introduce yourself.
L277+ is a terminal SNP, so far. Next testing would be Full Genomes, Inc. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?742-Full-Y-Chromosome-Sequencing-Phase-III-Pilot&highlight=Full+Genomes+Corp) or FTDNA's Big Y (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1587-Will-you-be-ordering-the-FamilyTreeDNA-s-Big-Y-DNA-Test) if you want to discover new SNPs.
I occasionally make R1b-L277 maps. Not that good and simple. Which shore of the Caspian Sea should be marked? Or somewhere else?
Thanks for posting.
Map http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=575&d=1374820338
Current Early R1b Phylogenetic Tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405)

Nice map, Joe. Hope you do not mind if I add a couple of bits to the discussion. There is one confirmed Assyrian L277+ man (Tiyari, Turkey), and one speculative L277+ man (Barwar, Iraq). Although not that close to the Caspian, their locations are closer to the Caspian than any of the L277 men currently displayed on the map. So, perhaps nazarov's stories regarding his ancestors' origins are not far from the truth.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/tiyari_barwar.png

nazarov
12-15-2013, 09:51 AM
Welcome nazarov!
I can not think of a better way to introduce yourself.
L277+ is a terminal SNP, so far. Next testing would be Full Genomes, Inc. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?742-Full-Y-Chromosome-Sequencing-Phase-III-Pilot&highlight=Full+Genomes+Corp) or FTDNA's Big Y (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1587-Will-you-be-ordering-the-FamilyTreeDNA-s-Big-Y-DNA-Test) if you want to discover new SNPs.
I occasionally make R1b-L277 maps. Not that good and simple. Which shore of the Caspian Sea should be marked? Or somewhere else?
Thanks for posting.
Map http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=575&d=1374820338
Current Early R1b Phylogenetic Tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405) or http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580&p=22598&viewfull=1#post22598
I suppose the steppes around the northern shore of the Caspian sea to be marked.
my grandfather was still born in East Kazakhstan in the city of Semipalatinsk (50°26′0″N 80°16′0″E) in 1922. In 1932, due to persecution from the soviets and after my grandgrandfather died in prison thrown there for being an officer of the White army during the civil war, the family moved to Russia and there scattered in a big way. However, we originally belonged to a cossack clan of the former Ural cossack host that had the city of Uralsk as capital (51°14′0″N 51°22′0″E), lands of the ural cossacks stretched in northwestern Kazakhstan all the way down from Uralsk along the river of Ural to the northern shore of the Caspian sea.
Recently even in in modern Russia the big authorities finally recognized the cossacks as an ethnicity, which i knew, as every cossack already from my childhood ... LOL ...
From the family talks i know certainly that centuries ago our ancestors came to the Ural river from Asia, no other details ever supplied and now there is nobody to question. I remember that when my grandmother was angry with the grandpa she often called him "bloody khan", explaining that in his family they all were crazy asian people.

nazarov
12-15-2013, 10:21 AM
Would like to mention that the cossacks hosts always formed during the centuries from different ethnicities. All my friends cossacks that had ydna tested have far origins in northern regions of Russia, while the ural cossacks host was unique and distinguished even among the other hosts as multi-ethnical. Russians, bashkirs, tartars etc all gathered on the ural river and formed around the XIII - XIV centuries the host. In the host were known also a few grapples of so called kyzylbashi, people that joined the cossacks during their sea-rides of the cossacks to the persian shore (the rides however terminated in XVI century). I'm in touch with the guys who take care of the bashkirian ydna project but no matches found so far whilst tested bashkirs are numerous.

Silesian
12-15-2013, 03:51 PM
after almost 2 months ftdna confirmed L277+ (L584-), (kit 223828), as far as i ustood no other snips can be tested yet or i'm wrong ? i wonder if L277+ takes me to the caspian sea shores from where i beleive my ancestors came from ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Ural_river_basinEN.png
Cossacks also in other branches of R1b, like R-M73 around Khazakhstan .
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqort_Clans/default.aspx?section=yresults

12 markers,R1b-L277 Armenia R1b-L277 TurkeyR1b- L277 in SwitzerlandR1b-L277 India R1b- L277 Khazakhstan R1b-M73 R1b-P297R1b

12 23 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 L277 Armenia
12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 L277 Turkey
13 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 L277Switzerland
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 29 L277 India
12 21 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 L277 Kazakhstan
13 19 14 10 13-13 12 12 13 14 13 30M-73 Irgakli-Kipchak clan Uzbekistan
13 22 14 11 13-17 12 12 13 13 13 30 Ural, Bashkortostan, Teleu clan
13 22 14 11 14-15 12 12 13 14 13 33 kipshak

Rathna
12-15-2013, 07:21 PM
12 markers,R1b-L277 Armenia R1b-L277 TurkeyR1b- L277 in SwitzerlandR1b-L277 India R1b- L277 Khazakhstan R1b-M73 R1b-P297R1b

12 23 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 L277 Armenia
12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 L277 Turkey
13 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 L277Switzerland
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 29 L277 India
12 21 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 L277 Kazakhstan
13 19 14 10 13-13 12 12 13 14 13 30M-73 Irgakli-Kipchak clan Uzbekistan
13 22 14 11 13-17 12 12 13 13 13 30 Ural, Bashkortostan, Teleu clan
13 22 14 11 14-15 12 12 13 14 13 33 kipshak

From what you say, it would seem that this person is an R-P297*. Actually he has been tested only for this SNP, and without being negative for the downstream ones, you can not affirm that he is P297*.
But
279134 Teleu Bashkir
belong to the same haplogroup of
239997 Merkit-Meng Bashkir
and
249621 Kassaev

249621 Kassaev kipshak, kumi noghay, NGY R1b1a1 R-M73 M343+, M73+, M269-
239997 Merkit-Meng Bashkir Shakur (XIX), Bashkortostan,Ural, Merkit-Meng clan R1b1a1 R-M73 M73+, P25+, M269-

thus he is only R-M73* and you, being L277-, have nothing to do with Nazarov who is L277+.

Rathna
12-15-2013, 07:59 PM
You could add to these R-L277+ also this Italian. The true values are mine from SMGF:
5C2NP Manno Montecalvo Irpino, Avellino, Italy
12 24 14 13 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 11 11 19 22 16 12 11 12 11 13 13 12 12 13 30 12
GABZ5 Manno Montecalvo, Italy
12 24 14 13 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 11 12 19 22 16 17 11 12 11 15 14 12 12 13 30 12
and I make you note that it is the only one to have DYS391=13.

P.S. Beyond the known Stasi:
95875 Pietro Stasi, b 1854, Potenza, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1
12 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-24 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12

Rathna
12-15-2013, 10:10 PM
Manno's haplotype is very weird. No close match on YHRD, but what to think of this haplotype which matches it but with DYS392=13, whereas all the R-L277+ known so far have DYS392=14?
1 14 13 28 24 13 13 12 11,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 745 Buenos Aires, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

P.S. I make you note that in Argentina there are more than 20,000,000 of Italians (more than 10,000,000 of Y).

Joe B
12-16-2013, 01:16 AM
I suppose the steppes around the northern shore of the Caspian sea to be marked.
my grandfather was still born in East Kazakhstan in the city of Semipalatinsk (50°26′0″N 80°16′0″E) in 1922. In 1932, due to persecution from the soviets and after my grandgrandfather died in prison thrown there for being an officer of the White army during the civil war, the family moved to Russia and there scattered in a big way. However, we originally belonged to a cossack clan of the former Ural cossack host that had the city of Uralsk as capital (51°14′0″N 51°22′0″E), lands of the ural cossacks stretched in northwestern Kazakhstan all the way down from Uralsk along the river of Ural to the northern shore of the Caspian sea.
Recently even in in modern Russia the big authorities finally recognized the cossacks as an ethnicity, which i knew, as every cossack already from my childhood ... LOL ...
From the family talks i know certainly that centuries ago our ancestors came to the Ural river from Asia, no other details ever supplied and now there is nobody to question. I remember that when my grandmother was angry with the grandpa she often called him "bloody khan", explaining that in his family they all were crazy asian people.
Would like to mention that the cossacks hosts always formed during the centuries from different ethnicities. All my friends cossacks that had ydna tested have far origins in northern regions of Russia, while the ural cossacks host was unique and distinguished even among the other hosts as multi-ethnical. Russians, bashkirs, tartars etc all gathered on the ural river and formed around the XIII - XIV centuries the host. In the host were known also a few grapples of so called kyzylbashi, people that joined the cossacks during their sea-rides of the cossacks to the persian shore (the rides however terminated in XVI century). I'm in touch with the guys who take care of the bashkirian ydna project but no matches found so far whilst tested bashkirs are numerous.Thanks for sharing your fascinating family and ethinic history. It seems like our Z2103 subclade has many interesting groups. The Ural Cossacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_Cossacks) and the role of the Cossack host (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_host) are an important part of the story. Hopefully your testing to L277+ will confirm or add to your history.
Uralsk it is!

Joe B
12-16-2013, 09:21 PM
Nice map, Joe. Hope you do not mind if I add a couple of bits to the discussion. There is one confirmed Assyrian L277+ man (Tiyari, Turkey), and one speculative L277+ man (Barwar, Iraq). Although not that close to the Caspian, their locations are closer to the Caspian than any of the L277 men currently displayed on the map. So, perhaps nazarov's stories regarding his ancestors' origins are not far from the truth.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/tiyari_barwar.png
Found 10 L277s in the Adriano Squecco spreadsheet.
Koundakjian - Unknown Goulde - unknown Grossman - ~Lithuania Morluk - Turkey Assyrian - Turkey Burkholder - Swiss Gosh - India Manno - Italy AN120211a - unknown Sawyer - unknown

Thank you, Rathna. Apologies. It has been a couple of years since the Adriano Squecco sheets, L405/L584, etc. But, my error in the specific SNP notwithstanding, Mezdo (the man from Tyari) was in the same lot as Burkholder, the Armenian L277 and others. And his STR values do not give me reason to believe he is not L277. If I have some spare money to test him, I will. But, I would rather test the man from Barwar, Iraq, if I do test any man for L277 soon.Looking for the Armenian as the last one predicted turned out to be L584+ instead.
Has everything been settled regarding L277 and 23andme?
This has been a productive discussion. Started a new L277.1 thread. R1b-L277.1* R1b-M269>L23>L150>Z2103>Z2105>L277.1* 2014 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1722-R1b-L277-1*-R1b-M269-gt-L23-gt-L150-gt-Z2103-gt-Z2105-gt-L277-1*-2014)
Could a moderator please move the relevant post to the new thread so they can be easily found? #31 through #41 on this thread. #13 through #19 on the From R-L23/L150 to R-PF7580 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580&p=22715&viewfull=1#post22715) thread Big Thanks!

Joe B
06-18-2014, 08:37 PM
Actually the Romani only arrived in Europe in the Middle Ages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Arrival_in_Europe . I think we might have a bit of a problem in working out whether natural selection has been at work over that time, because of intermarriage. The participants at Appleby Horse Fair look like any other Europeans to me, but then they include Scottish and Irish travellers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6AENdfLdBA

We have another order for CTS7822 in this Locke Surname project. He is my "genetic cousin" and we match 63/67 on STR values, but we have not yet connected our family lines on paper.

I trace my line back to Philadelphia in the 1690's (shortly after the founding of the Pennsylvania Colony) but I have not yet found the ancestor who came over from the Old Country. My genetic cousin's line goes back to Chittlehampton, Devonshire England in the early 1600's, but his family did not come to the US until the 1870's so there is a minimum 180 year separation between our lines back to our MRCA.

Current estimates places our MRCA around 1500+/-. We've matched on all SNP's that we have tested so far, so there is no reason to suspect that he will not match on CTS7822.

This forum is named "R1b Early Subclades, but I am assuming that this is in reference to placement on the tree and not necessarily placement in time. Still, from what I've seen in this and other forum's it appears that this may be a very old (i.e. early) branching from R1b's root.

With all that being said, has anyone come up with any preliminary estimate ("guess-timate") of when this branch (Z2103>CTS7822) would have been formed?

I apologize if I am not using the proper terminology to ask my question.
Your post and Jean's from yesterday has got me wondering if migrations from the middle ages or later may account for some of the R1b-Z2103 branches that we are seeing in Western Europe. Could the Z2109, Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9219 branches be the result of Polish migration to the Isles with enterprises such as the The Eastland Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastland_Company)? In my opinion, a Sinti-Manouche-Romanichal connection really needs to be explored. Does anybody know of any Y-DNA studies for Sinti, Manouche and Romanichal populations? Later migrations could explain the dearth of R1b-Z2103 haplotypes from Western Europe and the relatively higher frequency in the Western Hemisphere with English surnames.
http://dnaconsultants.com/images/gypsy%20migrations.jpg
I don't know anything about DNA Consultants, but this is interesting about the Sinti. http://dnaconsultants.com/sinti-gene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_France

Geolocke
06-19-2014, 12:32 AM
Your post and Jean's from yesterday has got me wondering if migrations from the middle ages or later may account for some of the R1b-Z2103 branches that we are seeing in Western Europe. Could the Z2109, Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9219 be the result of Polish migration to the Isles with enterprises such as the The Eastland Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastland_Company)? In my opinion, a Sinti-Manouche-Romanichal connection really needs to be explored. Does anybody know of any Y-DNA studies for Sinti, Manouche and Romanichal populations? Later migrations could explain the dearth of R1b-Z2103 haplotypes from Western Europe and the relatively higher frequency in the Western Hemisphere with English surnames.
http://dnaconsultants.com/images/gypsy%20migrations.jpg
I don't know anything about DNA Consultants, but this is interesting about the Sinti. http://dnaconsultants.com/sinti-gene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_France

JoeB, The admin for our Locke surname discovered that he is colonial Romany, with genetic links back to many traditional English Traveler families. He has begun a Romany Y-DNA study, but most of those tested so far are Y-Haplo H1a which is also an enigma in western Europe. there are a few members of that project who are R-M269, but none with DYS393=12. Almost all the H1a's *are* DYS393=12 and there are 2 J's with DYS393=12. Here is a link to that group: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romnchel/default.aspx

2Bellies
10-14-2014, 06:20 PM
Joe...you wanted to move our conversation over to here from the CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 ISOGG Haplotree Listing Application (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2632-CTS7822-Z2110-and-CTS9219-ISOGG-Haplotree-Listing-Application/page17) conversation re my Scottish connection. The story goes as follows: Family oral tradition says we the BLACK family are descended from Scots who settled Germany in the early 1600s. I met a very distant cousin (separated by 150+ years) whose side of the family has the same oral tradition. The earliest I can trace my BLACK line in Germany is circa 1700 although the name appears in various records as early as late 1500s. The spelling is normally BLACK but occasionally it is PLACK or BLAK. By the way a PLACK is an ancient Scottish coin. The reason I did DNA testing was to learn what clan I belonged to...then the test showed I am not your normal Scot and evidently do not fit into the regular clan system where BLACK belongs. I have done the 67-STR, L21(-), P312(), U106(-), Z103(+), CTS7822(+), and BIG-Y tests. BIG-Y says I am CTS9219. The BAM raw file was then given to YFull who now says I am CTS1450*. In addition, I ran the raw BAM file with BAM Analysis Tools and those results are available. That's my story...what results would you like me to post here?

smal
10-14-2014, 06:54 PM
I have done the 67-STR, L21(-), P312(), U106(-), Z103(+), CTS7822(+), and BIG-Y tests. BIG-Y says I am CTS9219. The BAM raw file was then given to YFull who now says I am CTS1450*.

2Bellies, CTS1450 and CTS9219 are on the same level of Y-tree. But we already know that you belong to the next level -
CTS1450, CTS9219 > BY250, BY251. This new level (BY250, BY251) combines you, Sanchez, Perry, Blair, Baugher, and Hollandsworth.

After this you belong to next level -
BY250, BY251 > Y:7070873 (C/A), Y:8519567 (T/C), Y:8790394 (T/G), Y:16694524 (C/T), Y:18392739 (A/T). This new level combines you, Baugher, and Hollandsworth.

After this you belong to next level -
Y:7070873 (C/A), Y:8519567 (T/C), Y:8790394 (T/G), Y:16694524 (C/T), Y:18392739 (A/T) > Y:8752245 (C/T), Y:8808243 (G/T), Y:8888717 (C/T), Y:14244437 (A/G), Y:15327498 (T/C), Y:15500418 (T/C), S16207. And this new level combines you and Hollandsworth.

You and Hollandsworth are most closely related from BigY tested people. Unfortunately, we do not have Hollandsworth's STR haplotype because he is not in our project.

2Bellies
10-14-2014, 08:20 PM
I'll se what I can do. I have been in contact with the family. Told them that they should send raw file to YFull for further analysis. I'll see if I can get the STR info for you.

2Bellies
10-15-2014, 01:25 AM
I'll se what I can do. I have been in contact with the family. Told them that they should send raw file to YFull for further analysis. I'll see if I can get the STR info for you.
Email sent...I requested (if possible) that STR results be sent to me for posting or that they post directly. Now its just wait and see.

Joe B
10-15-2014, 03:49 PM
Joe...you wanted to move our conversation over to here from the CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 ISOGG Haplotree Listing Application (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2632-CTS7822-Z2110-and-CTS9219-ISOGG-Haplotree-Listing-Application/page17) conversation re my Scottish connection. The story goes as follows: Family oral tradition says we the BLACK family are descended from Scots who settled Germany in the early 1600s. I met a very distant cousin (separated by 150+ years) whose side of the family has the same oral tradition. The earliest I can trace my BLACK line in Germany is circa 1700 although the name appears in various records as early as late 1500s. The spelling is normally BLACK but occasionally it is PLACK or BLAK. By the way a PLACK is an ancient Scottish coin. The reason I did DNA testing was to learn what clan I belonged to...then the test showed I am not your normal Scot and evidently do not fit into the regular clan system where BLACK belongs. I have done the 67-STR, L21(-), P312(), U106(-), Z103(+), CTS7822(+), and BIG-Y tests. BIG-Y says I am CTS9219. The BAM raw file was then given to YFull who now says I am CTS1450*. In addition, I ran the raw BAM file with BAM Analysis Tools and those results are available. That's my story...what results would you like me to post here?
Thanks for your family history. Do you know why the Black family moved to the Hesse-Marburg area from Scotland? The early 1600s would include the 30 Years War that really disrupted life in Hessen.
My reason for asking is that there are a few cases of Continental and Isles haplotypes from the Z2109, Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9219 clades that may have a loose STR connection. SNP testing like you have done really helps.

2Bellies
10-15-2014, 05:59 PM
Thanks for your family history. Do you know why the Black family moved to the Hesse-Marburg area from Scotland? The early 1600s would include the 30 Years War that really disrupted life in Hessen.
My reason for asking is that there are a few cases of Continental and Isles haplotypes from the Z2109, Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9219 clades that may have a loose STR connection. SNP testing like you have done really helps.

I have no idea why they went to Germany; however, the reason probably centers around two events: (1) 30 Years War - Scottish mercenaries hired out to both sides. (2) There was a big migration (circa 50,000 Scots) to Northern Europe between the mid to late-1500s and the end of the 17th century. See (A) The Scots in Germany, by Th A Fischer (1902); and (B) Scottish Entrepreneurs and Commercial Agents in Scandinavia and the Baltic, Dr. Steve Murdoch.

vettor
10-16-2014, 05:06 AM
Thanks for your family history. Do you know why the Black family moved to the Hesse-Marburg area from Scotland? The early 1600s would include the 30 Years War that really disrupted life in Hessen.
My reason for asking is that there are a few cases of Continental and Isles haplotypes from the Z2109, Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9219 clades that may have a loose STR connection. SNP testing like you have done really helps.

Interesting, I have a few USA "ancestors" ( 4 in fact ) who note themselves as scots and/or hessians ..........usually the the Odenwald region of southwest Germany

Joe B
10-30-2014, 06:17 PM
The Grant DNA Project has a subgroup that typifies the fustrations some of the Z2103 surname projects have, a real mystery when the paper trail runs out. For the Grants, the paper trail goes back over 300 years.

The Grant DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/GRANT/) is a good one. Here is what they have for Z2103.

Group E: R-L23 haplogroup M269>L23>Z51>L2103+

This group is mostly made up of descendants of a Beriah Grant born 1698 presumably in CT. He was adopted soon after by a Matthew Grant (see above) grandson named Noah Grant and has several surviving family lines today, most of which are unable to connect back to Beriah yet are definite matches to those who can. Many of these Grants have family histories in NY and NJ before moving south after the Revolutionary War to Sumter County, GA.

As far as phylogeny is concerned, it's important to find out if this group of Grants belong to the R-CTS7822 haplogroup or not.
R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/)

smal
10-30-2014, 07:17 PM
As far as phylogeny is concerned, it's important to find out if this group of Grants belong to the R-CTS7822 haplogroup or not.

I think they belong to R-Z2109*. This is your branch, Joe.

Joe B
10-31-2014, 01:20 AM
I think they belong to R-Z2109*. This is your branch, Joe.
Thanks smal,
I think one of the Grants needs to test CTS7822 just to make sure. Looking at the 111 STR comparison, there is just enough separation that a CTS7822 test is justified to rule out STR convergence. If they are negative as expected, there will be a clear path for SNP testing when my Big Y results come in. A CTS7822 test might be useful for ISOGG too.

Silesian
02-26-2015, 06:13 PM
Quote Originally Posted by nazarov View Post
after almost 2 months ftdna confirmed L277+ (L584-), (kit 223828), as far as i ustood no other snips can be tested yet or i'm wrong ? i wonder if L277+ takes me to the caspian sea shores from where i beleive my ancestors came from ...

Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
Welcome nazarov!
I can not think of a better way to introduce yourself.
L277+ is a terminal SNP, so far. Next testing would be Full Genomes, Inc. or FTDNA's Big Y if you want to discover new SNPs.
I occasionally make R1b-L277 maps. Not that good and simple. Which shore of the Caspian Sea should be marked? Or somewhere else?
Thanks for posting.


Nice map, Joe. Hope you do not mind if I add a couple of bits to the discussion. There is one confirmed Assyrian L277+ man (Tiyari, Turkey), and one speculative L277+ man (Barwar, Iraq). Although not that close to the Caspian, their locations are closer to the Caspian than any of the L277 men currently displayed on the map. So, perhaps nazarov's stories regarding his ancestors' origins are not far from the truth.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/tiyari_barwar.png

Hi nazarov long time since you posted; you might want to have a look at this, it might interest you about your origins.B)
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...3.figures-only

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Ural_river_basinEN.png
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.figures-only

Silesian
02-26-2015, 06:19 PM
Your post and Jean's from yesterday has got me wondering if migrations from the middle ages or later may account for some of the R1b-Z2103 branches that we are seeing in Western Europe. Could the Z2109, Z2110/CTS7822 and CTS9219 branches be the result of Polish migration to the Isles with enterprises such as the The Eastland Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastland_Company)? In my opinion, a Sinti-Manouche-Romanichal connection really needs to be explored. Does anybody know of any Y-DNA studies for Sinti, Manouche and Romanichal populations? Later migrations could explain the dearth of R1b-Z2103 haplotypes from Western Europe and the relatively higher frequency in the Western Hemisphere with English surnames.

Cool theory:)

Moderator
02-26-2015, 06:48 PM
Cool theory:)

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Silesian
12-13-2015, 01:27 AM
Richard is right, we really can't tell with 100% certainty. We don't even have a complete breakdown of Kromsdorf R1B and King Tuts........................... We don't have any ancient samples from Britain. However, we do have evidence Z2103/is found among the Ossets and it could be related to some of the Jasz people.



However we cannot say with any certainty if there is a connection with Alans being in the Roman army, stationed in Britain.


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=yresults

Ossetians IE (Iranian, NE) 47N 42.6%[25] Rosser et al. (2000

December 12 2015 update. Both Ossetians and Jaszsag belong to R1b-9219+ cluster.
Pamiri/Northern Pakistan are most likely negative for R1b-9219+.
Cluster also found and defined with further downstream snp's in Poland[593].
6909


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

rough estimates for age dates.
http://i.stack.imgur.com/acJkS.jpg

Possible Sarmatian settlements Northern Italy.
http://www.marres.nl/afb/Vestigingen%20Noord-Italie.jpg
http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm

Side note R1b-9219 also found in Kecskemét

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kecskem%C3%A9t

The first archeological trace of a human in the area is about five thousand years old. The Sarmatians invaded the area in the first century B.C.; since then the area has been continuously inhabited by a variety of cultures. János Hornyik, the first town historian, believed that the settlement known as Partiskum of the Sarmatian Jazygian was here. Contemporary consensus among historians is that it is more likely permanent settlement occurred only after the Hungarian conquest. At the beginning of the 13th century, there were seven villages in the area, each with a population of 200-300 formed near the village church, a typical rural pattern. They were all destroyed by the Mongol Invasion. Some of the villages revived at the time of the Cumanian's colonization.

http://www.marres.nl/afb/Romeinse%20Rijk%20-%20eindgrenzen%20circa%20450%20-%20vestigingen%20Sarmaten%20en%20Alanen.jpg
http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm

Sarmatians deployment.
Sarmatians as foederati, gentiles, and comites
http://www.marres.education/sarmatians.htm

dosas
01-08-2019, 09:36 AM
Hello everyone, I've recently done a Y-111 test with ftdna and fed the results into nevgen. It gave me R1b Z2103>L584> PF7580 as a result at 90.3% probability. I am still waiting for my Big-Y, but I am baffled with my result and try to find more information about it (I've joined the R1b project in ftdna but their main page seems to be offline).

I am Northern Greek, by the way, with paternal ancestry from Northern Thrace (former Eastern Romelia, now Bulgaria).

Thanks in advance, for any bone of information or advice you can throw my way!

eastara
01-09-2019, 01:16 AM
Hello everyone, I've recently done a Y-111 test with ftdna and fed the results into nevgen. It gave me R1b Z2103>L584> PF7580 as a result at 90.3% probability. I am still waiting for my Big-Y, but I am baffled with my result and try to find more information about it (I've joined the R1b project in ftdna but their main page seems to be offline).

I am Northern Greek, by the way, with paternal ancestry from Northern Thrace (former Eastern Romelia, now Bulgaria).

Thanks in advance, for any bone of information or advice you can throw my way!

Hi, which part of Northern Thrace/Bulgaria do you come from? For now, except a single L277, all Bulgarians Z2105 fall under CTS5822/CTS9219. It seems the population of lowland Thrace are rather new settlers, as it was almost completely depopulated and then Turkified after Ottoman invasion. Regarding inland Greeks there (not along the Black sea or bigger cities), the theory is they are Slavs, who Hellenised very late, maybe 18-19c, and initially came from the area around Kustendil, Western Bulgaria. However, your branch L584 maybe shows Anatolian origin. Your autosomal results may give you more information, if too much Middle East(Anatolian) probably recent settlers from there.

dosas
01-09-2019, 08:06 AM
Hi, which part of Northern Thrace/Bulgaria do you come from? For now, except a single L277, all Bulgarians Z2105 fall under CTS5822/CTS9219. It seems the population of lowland Thrace are rather new settlers, as it was almost completely depopulated and then Turkified after Ottoman invasion. Regarding inland Greeks there (not along the Black sea or bigger cities), the theory is they are Slavs, who Hellenised very late, maybe 18-19c, and initially came from the area around Kustendil, Western Bulgaria. However, your branch L584 maybe shows Anatolian origin. Your autosomal results may give you more information, if too much Middle East(Anatolian) probably recent settlers from there.

The place is called Ivaylovgrad. Both my paternal grandparents were born there (they were a closed society, afaik). My father seems to be an outlier even for them because he is blond/blue eyed. They could be from Central Greece/Epiros, although I am not sure about that, because the narrative of their village was that they were moved there in the 17th century by the Sultan to build a mosque. My maternal grandparents are Pontian Greeks from Crimea/Trabzon. Myheritage.com gives me 72%ish Greek, 22%ish West Asian, and 4%ish Middle Eastern.

Here's a link for my K36 autosomal results for each chromosome separately:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10VficSBUR6HHH4fxUC0L2bFx1u3nlcPH/view"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/10VficSBUR6HHH4fxUC0L2bFx1u3nlcPH/view

Joe B
01-10-2019, 01:03 AM
Welcome to the forum. Can't add much to eastara's analysis. Please join the R1b Basal Subclades Haplogroup Project. We cover the R1b-M343 (xP312 xU106) part of the tree. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about
You'll also want to get a professional analysis at YFull and placement on there haplotree once your Big Y results are complete. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y13369/

eastara
01-10-2019, 07:40 AM
Ivaylovgrad(Ortakkoy) until 1913 seemed to predominantly Greek town, but the villages around were Turkish and Bulgarian. This is typical, Greeks in Thrace lived mainly in the cities and smaller towns, but the rural area around was Turkish and Bulgarian. Greeks moved where there was more business and did not involve much in farm work (with exception of wine growing). So your paternal grandparent could have come from elsewhere, including Anatolia. Probably you should order Big Y to see which exactly is your branch, predictors are not 100% reliable. You have rather big Middle East/ West Asian, but it could have come from your mother, Pontic Greeks from Trabzon show up to 90% and more Anatolian.

Joe B
01-11-2019, 10:10 PM
Hello everyone, I've recently done a Y-111 test with ftdna and fed the results into nevgen. It gave me R1b Z2103>L584> PF7580 as a result at 90.3% probability. I am still waiting for my Big-Y, but I am baffled with my result and try to find more information about it (I've joined the R1b project in ftdna but their main page seems to be offline).

I am Northern Greek, by the way, with paternal ancestry from Northern Thrace (former Eastern Romelia, now Bulgaria).

Thanks in advance, for any bone of information or advice you can throw my way! Just took a look at your STRs. I have to agree with eastara's assessment of STR haplogroup predictors, they are less than reliable. In your case, with no matches at the 12 STR level, or any level, it's hard to say for sure what the haplogroup is. Suspect it is R1b-Z2103>L584. However, something downstream from Z2106 is a real possibility. There is even an outside chance that you are in a completely different subclade. Stranger things have happened. Glad you got a NGS test so we don't have to guess anymore. Looking forward to your Big Y results.

dosas
01-12-2019, 07:36 PM
Just an update, I've ran the numbers again with nevgen and I got 70.2% probability of unsupported sub-clade? How is this possible with Y-111?

Joe B
01-13-2019, 12:27 AM
Just an update, I've ran the numbers again with nevgen and I got 70.2% probability of unsupported sub-clade? How is this possible with Y-111?STRs and SNPs are coincidental to each other. So going to 111 STRs would only be helpful in predicting a haplogroup if there was a particular STR signature that needed that kind of coverage. In your case, I'm betting that your Y DNA TMRCA is several thousand years ago and represents a new branch. Pretty hard for algorithm to figure out your haplogroup when there is nobody in the database to represent it. Until you.

Lupriac
02-15-2019, 05:19 PM
Hello everyone and sorry if this is not the proper location, however, a close friend of mine (his family) was under R-Z2103. Was this haplogroup brought by the Romans or Persians?

palamede
02-19-2019, 10:14 PM
Hello everyone and sorry if this is not the proper location, however, a close friend of mine (his family) was under R-Z2103. Was this haplogroup brought by the Romans or Persians?

Maybe, but also possibly by Hittites, Armenians (30% now), Sea people, Greeks (25% in antiquity, 15 to 25% now according to the region), Assyrian Christians (25% now ) , Alaouites (not known but important)

Originally before 2200BC, R1b-Z2103 was the main haplogroup in the steppes of South Russia and Ukraine and often considered as the first speakers of the proto Indo-European. Already, they migrated westwards and southwards. But during the 2200BC event ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event ), the steppe was dried and became a desert temporarily. The steppe inhabitants fled into Balkans (Greeks, Phrygians, Thraces, ...) and spred the indo-european language, but also in Middle East thru the Caucasus by the Derbent pass along the West shores of Caspian Sea : notablet frequency in some small people of East Caucasus like Tabarassans ,Lezguins and more southern in Gilakis, Armenians, Tats and Azeris.

Later when wetter again, the steppe was populated by R1a population coming from the Middle Volga southwards.

Now R1b is 8% in Liban, mostly R1b-Z2103.

Generalissimo
02-19-2019, 10:48 PM
Originally before 2200BC, R1b-Z2103 was the main haplogroup in the steppes of South Russia and Ukraine and often considered as the first speakers of the proto Indo-European.

Early PIE is generally regarded to have been spoken in Eneolithic cultures like Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog.

And R1b-Z2103 wasn't the main haplogroup on the steppe before 2200 BC. There was a wide variety of R1a, R1b, Q and I2 lineages in the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations of the steppe. You should take a closer look at the ancient samples from the steppe.


Later when wetter again, the steppe was populated by R1a population coming from the Middle Volga southwards.

The earliest R1a-M417 is from the Eneolithic North Pontic steppe in Ukraine.

Lupriac
02-20-2019, 08:14 PM
Assyrian Christians (25% now )
Assyrian R1b varies though, in some populations it's 10% and in others it's around 22%

ADW_1981
02-21-2019, 03:12 AM
Assyrian R1b varies though, in some populations it's 10% and in others it's around 22%

Well the Assyrian diaspora in Iran has it about 40%. That's the highest I have seen.

Lupriac
02-21-2019, 01:30 PM
Well the Assyrian diaspora in Iran has it about 40%. That's the highest I have seen.

The most common Y-DNA haplogroups among Assyrians is T-M184, at 41.5%, which is frequent in Middle Eastern Jews, Georgians, Druze and Somalians.[219] In a DNA test comprising 48 Assyrian male subjects from Iran, the Y-DNA haplogroups J-M304, found in its greatest concentration in the Arabian peninsula, and the Indo European-linked R1b (specifically R-M269), were also frequent at 29.2% each.[220]In other tests taken, R1b has reached 40%, making it a major haplogroup among Assyrians.[221] R-M269 was brought from the Pontic–Caspian steppe in Eurasia,

a region hypothesised to be the Proto-Indo-European homeland, which went south over the Caucasus mountains via Anatolia and into Mesopotamia at around 6,000 B.P.[222] The high frequency of the Atlantic modal haplotype in Assyrians showcases that the ancient Assyrians had considerable genetic interaction with the peoples who migrated to northwest Europe, a region where the R1b haplogroup is common.

In a DNA test comprising 48 Assyrian male subjects from Iran, the Y-DNA haplogroups J-M304, found in its greatest concentration in the Arabian peninsula, and the Indo European-linked R1b (specifically R-M269), were also frequent at 29.2% each.

Perhaps the Persians and Hittites helped in spreading R1b?