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Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:07 PM
David Worthington from the University of the Highlands and Islands in Inverness, in his 2015 article "Historians and the Scots in the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania (1569–1795)", wrote:

"The burgeoning of a historiography of the Scots in the PLC has been hindered by either the unavailability to scholars of, or their unwillingness to tackle, secondary sources in the relevant foreign languages. Despite this ethnic group having comprised, at one time, the largest representation of the Scottish diaspora in a foreign state, this article demonstrates that, since Poland–Lithuania’s partition, historiographical coverage has been compartmentalised along linguistic and national lines. The article is tripartite, outlining work in the German, Polish and English languages, albeit highlighting the detrimental effects caused, until recently, by the frequent isolation of these, and other linguistic traditions of historiographical significance, from one another."

According to Rosalind Mitchison, at the turns of the 16th and 17th centuries at least 100,000 people emigrated from Scotland - nearly half of them to Ulster. However, she did not include emigration to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and admitted that her estimate was probably too low.

Scottish Diaspora in Poland-Lithuania was even larger than that in Ulster.

Estimates for years 1600-1650 range from 7,400 to 30,000 families (the latter figure was given by William Lightgow in 1616). These numbers have to be multiplied by an average family size of 3 to 5 or even more people. If you multiply 30,000 x 3 you get 90,000 Scots, or about 1% of all inhabitants of the PLC (around 9 million). More moderate estimates say about 40,000 - 50,000 Scots in Poland. Scottish inhabitants were recorded by sources in at least 120-130 cities, towns and villages throughout Poland.

Both Catholic and Protestant Scots immigrated to Poland, Protestants for the most part converted to Catholicism throughout the 2nd half of the 17th and the 18th century. It also seems that many of them adopted genuinely Polish surnames (instead of just Polonizing their surnames phonetically). I personally had no idea about my Scottish roots, until I took DNA tests. I'm still not 100% sure about it, but I guess that further genealogical research and more advanced DNA tests will give me final answers.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:09 PM
My and my father's closest Y-DNA matches on FTDNA are from Scotland.

My father's autosomal results also revealed some "Celtic" admixture, so it isn't just Y-DNA:

DNA Tribes:

https://i.imgur.com/VABV7v0.png

Eurogenes K15:

https://i.imgur.com/cTPzLnt.png

MyHeritage:

https://i.imgur.com/82myP6a.png

Our closest Y-DNA matches are also from Scotland:

https://i.imgur.com/oFZoEVX.png

My dad's recent ancestry is indeed from this "Scottish Trail" area in southern Wielkopolska:

http://powiat.konin.pl/media_pliki_powiat/file/1597_pl_inwyd_2009_szlak_szkocki.pdf

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:14 PM
I'm still not sure whether my "Celtic" autosomal admixture and "Celtic" Y-DNA have ancient presence in Poland, or whether they come from 17th century Scottish immigrants. I guess only a Big Y test as well as further genealogical research can help in answering these questions and showing whether my subclade is descended from Scottish subclades or just a cousin branch (or perhaps even ancestral to them).

Interestingly this particular subclade of DF27 seems to exist in Iberia, Scotland and Poland.

spruithean
08-10-2018, 08:22 PM
Can we really say the largest Scottish diaspora was in Poland? I would suspect that the largest diasporas overall independent of the era would be found in areas known to have been part of the British Empire, such as North America, where the Canadian province of Nova Scotia holds the Latin name "New Scotland", Australia, New Zealand, etc.

Maybe it was Poland in the 1600s, however Ulster (and the rest of Ireland) saw Scottish settlers too.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:31 PM
Maybe it was Poland in the 1600s

Yes, it refers to Poland in the 1600s. Since that time, many Scots and Scotch-Irish have emigrated to North America and Australia. Today undoubtedly the largest number of people who identify as Scots outside of Scotland, is in the USA. Also, Scots in Poland have assimilated into the larger Polish society and there is no any Scottish community in Poland today which cultivates the memory of their Scottish origins.

As I said, I was absolutely not aware of having any possible Scottish ancestry until I DNA-tested myself and my parents.

I still have doubts whether it is actually 17th century Scottish or just some ancient, prehistoric connection.

But there is a lot of consistency - Scottish Y-DNA matches, haplogroup that is found in Great Britain (but also in Iberia), Scottish autosomal results show up for my father (in my case it just shows up as some ambiguous North-Western ancestry, but testing my parents revealed that my father has a more Celtic-shifted type of NW admixture, while my mother has a more North Germanic type of NW admixture).

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 08:33 PM
The best way to know if you have Scottish ancestry or not is to see if you have any Scottish cousin matches on ancetsry/23andme.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 08:35 PM
Lol, maybe in Prussia not in Poland

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:36 PM
The best way to know if you have Scottish ancestry or not is to see if you have any Scottish cousin matches on ancetsry/23andme.

I tested with FTDNA so far (not with Ancestry/23andMe).

On FTDNA and on GEDmatch most of my matches are White Americans (including many with recent Polish ancestry and some without it). ;) Really, they should split it into "New World matches" and "Old World matches", because Americans are by far more numerous.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:38 PM
Lol, maybe in Prussia not in Poland

Nope, they were spread all over Poland. And that was in the 1500s-1700s, before Prussia annexed these areas.

But they were also numerous in Lesser Poland, which is the area later annexed by Austria during the Partitions.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 08:44 PM
The best way to know if you have Scottish ancestry or not is to see if you have any Scottish cousin matches on ancetsry/23andme.

Supposed Scottish ancestry is from my father's side and I tested him.

He has many matches >20 cM with Americans and Australians with Scottish (or possible Scottish) surnames, like McKean, Adams, Dalton, etc.

Sadly they don't have GEDCOMs so I would need to e-mail them all and ask if they are fully Scottish with no Polish, etc.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 08:47 PM
Nope, they were spread all over Poland. And that was in the 1500s-1700s, before Prussia annexed these areas.

But they were also numerous in Lesser Poland, which is the area later annexed by Austria during the Partitions.

Yeah right buddy you got this delusions. This is not even a discussion.

First of all Poland was a different region in PL-LITH commonwealth era. And the center of Poland was where is now southwest Ukraine, eastern Slovakia, parts of northern Moldova and Romania (Bukovina) I can find people with my family name -ovski or -owski married in Bukovina records until 1700s, and ofcourse southeast Poland where was always capital Krakow.

What is going on in Prussia is not my business.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:05 PM
Here is someone my father shares over 15 cM with on GEDmatch:

https://i.imgur.com/Ohyfifv.png

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:08 PM
First of all Poland was a different region in PL-LITH commonwealth era.

Most of modern Poland was also part of the PLC. Borders of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth vs. borders of modern countries:

(KIJ etc. are abbreviations of names of voivodeships; KAL is Kalisz Voivodeship, POZ is Poznań V., POM is Pomerelian V., etc.)

https://i.imgur.com/ZOAsHV1.png

Some maps from the 1600s even show Poland with a border along the Oder River, but this did not reflect political reality of that time (I guess it was memory of Medieval times). Map from 1697 by Philipp Clüver, "Veteris et Novae Regni Poloniae Magniq Ducatus Lithuaniae...":

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/32131/veteris-et-novae-regni-poloniae-magniq-ducatus-lit-cluver

https://i.imgur.com/KYc7Evo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NBRU8CB.png

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:32 PM
see if you have any Scottish cousin matches

Matches on GEDmatch with over 20 Total cM:

- McKean
- Holmes
- Dalton
- Tupper
- Patch
- Halfar

Matches on GEDmatch with over 15 Total cM:

- Crawford
- Allen
- McLean
- Gordon Montgomery
- McKay

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 09:35 PM
Most of modern Poland was also part of the PLC. Borders of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth vs. borders of modern countries:

Prussia was equal part of Poland as southern Estonia was a part of Poland in the PL-Lith commonwealth era that is good comparison. I already explain where was the center of Poland in this time. Most battles were fought on south border and surrounding regions always number one fact, and the peoples of this region ethnogenesis was of real Poles with noble family names who have keep traditions until now modern times and can trace the roots to common ancestral nobility house.

JonikW
08-10-2018, 09:36 PM
Yes, it refers to Poland in the 1600s. Since that time, many Scots and Scotch-Irish have emigrated to North America and Australia. Today undoubtedly the largest number of people who identify as Scots outside of Scotland, is in the USA. Also, Scots in Poland have assimilated into the larger Polish society and there is no any Scottish community in Poland today which cultivates the memory of their Scottish origins.

As I said, I was absolutely not aware of having any possible Scottish ancestry until I DNA-tested myself and my parents.

I still have doubts whether it is actually 17th century Scottish or just some ancient, prehistoric connection.

But there is a lot of consistency - Scottish Y-DNA matches, haplogroup that is found in Great Britain (but also in Iberia), Scottish autosomal results show up for my father (in my case it just shows up as some ambiguous North-Western ancestry, but testing my parents revealed that my father has a more Celtic-shifted type of NW admixture, while my mother has a more North Germanic type of NW admixture).

17th century seems like a long time ago to still have something that would show up as a meaningful percentage, particularly if the Scottish were only 1% of the population. But who knows; it must be possible. I would look for a match in Scotland who doesn't know of ANY foreign admixture. Have you found one?

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:39 PM
Prussia was equal part of Poland as southern Estonia was a part of Poland in the PL-Lith commonwealth era that is good comparison. I already explain where was the center of Poland in this time. Most battles were fought on south border and surrounding regions always number one fact, and the peoples of this region ethnogenesis was of real Poles with noble family names who have keep traditions until now modern times and can trace the roots to common ancestral nobility house.

Okay but my father's recent ancestry is from southern Greater Poland (Wielkopolska):

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/projekt_dna_region%C3%B3w_polski.shtml

https://i.imgur.com/a9Hmqdb.png

Results of my father (sample Wlkp1) in Eurogenes K15 (Slovak2 is from Nitra Region):

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

https://i.imgur.com/uynMR00.png

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:41 PM
17th century seems like a long time ago to still have something that would show up as a meaningful percentage

Of course. However, DNA Tribes, GEDmatch and MyHeritage show meaningful autosomal percentages of Scottish-Irish. That's why I think that we are talking either about many Scottish ancestors from the 1600s (not just one), or one Scottish ancestor but more recent (1800s).

The former - multiple Scottish ancestors from the 1600s - is more likely as I know my family's recent history (more or less).

DNA Tribes probably exaggerates but even MyHeritage shows 6% Scottish-Welsh-Irish.

Of course we can argue that it is some sort of ancient or prehistoric "Celtic" influence, not Scottish from historical times.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 09:43 PM
My great uncle has served 3 times as Prime Minister of Poland during 1930s, he led many revolution prior to that for Poland rights during partition years. He was born in Strutynka a Polish village, where is now Ukraine and Moldavia border.

As you can see on my LM genetic report, made by a Pole, my admixture can clearly "mirror the lands" of former PL-Lith commonwealth as I am a 100% hybridized version of the people who have occupied in this lands of PL-Lith commonwealth in past few hundred years as I am first person living outside this lands. My personal admixture nothing to do with modern Poland and even less to do with modern north and west Poland. Is obvious.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 09:45 PM
.....

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:47 PM
particularly if the Scottish were only 1% of the population.

So how do you explain, that DNA Tribes, GEDmatch and MyHeritage are all picking up Scottish in my father's DNA?

And Y-DNA matches are from Scotland, and my subclade (R1b-L617) is commonly found in Britain, but also in Iberia.

==========

For comparison my mom's results are (no "Celtic" influence to be found, instead there is "Germano-Balto-Finnic"):

DNA Tribes:

https://i.imgur.com/OpzxpTv.png

GEDmatch:

https://i.imgur.com/Kp98zJU.png

MyHeritage:

https://i.imgur.com/w53Pjvj.png

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:49 PM
GEDmatch admixtures:

In K15 my dad has notably high Atlantic, my mom notably high North Sea & East Euro:

1. Father (higher than Polish average % of Atlantic):

North_Sea 24.18
Atlantic 19.34 ---> this admix is more typically Celtic than Germanic
Baltic 24.98
Eastern_Euro 15.86
West_Med 5.16
West_Asian 4.74
East_Med 4.53
Oceanian 0.23
Northeast_African 0.96

2. Mother (higher % of North Sea and Eastern Euro):

North_Sea 26.77
Atlantic 14.93
Baltic 23.96
Eastern_Euro 19.95 ---> this admx is more typically Finno-Ugric than Balto-Slavic
West_Med 5.53
West_Asian 4.42
East_Med 3.32
Red_Sea 0.24
South_Asian 0.17
Amerindian 0.54
Northeast_African 0.17

ph2ter
08-10-2018, 09:51 PM
Supposed Scottish ancestry is from my father's side and I tested him.

He has many matches >20 cM with Americans and Australians with Scottish (or possible Scottish) surnames, like McKean, Adams, Dalton, etc.

Sadly they don't have GEDCOMs so I would need to e-mail them all and ask if they are fully Scottish with no Polish, etc.
I'm afraid that basing your Scottish link on Americans and Australians is hopeless.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 09:52 PM
So how do you explain, that DNA Tribes, GEDmatch and MyHeritage are all picking up Scottish in my father's DNA?

Prussia, Alemania, Niemieckie

JonikW
08-10-2018, 09:52 PM
So how do you explain, that DNA Tribes, GEDmatch and MyHeritage are all picking up Scottish in my father's DNA?

And Y-DNA matches are from Scotland, and my subclade (R1b-L617) is commonly found in Britain, but also in Iberia.

==========

For comparison my mom's results are as follows (no "Celtic" influence to be found, instead there is "Germano-Finnic"):

DNA Tribes:

https://i.imgur.com/OpzxpTv.png

GEDmatch:

https://i.imgur.com/Kp98zJU.png

MyHeritage:

https://i.imgur.com/w53Pjvj.png

I'm certainly not denying that you might be right, and I'd like to think you are. I merely think that Scottish is so similar to some other populations that it could potentially be identified mistakenly in very small percentages. A local cousin match might prove the link more securely. That's all.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:53 PM
I'm afraid that basing your Scottish link on Americans and Australians is hopeless.

Unfortunately the number of Americans and Australians who do DNA tests is higher than Europeans.

It all depends on where is their ancestry from, of course.

Here is one match with GEDCOM (unfortunately many ancestors are Hidden, but I'll ask via e-mail):

https://i.imgur.com/Ohyfifv.png

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 09:56 PM
I'm certainly not denying that you might be right, and I'd like to think you are.

To be honest, until recently I was inclined to believe that this is all (both autosomal admixtures and Y-DNA) from ancient Celts, who lived in Southern Poland. Or perhaps even from Bell Beakers. In my previous posts on this forum I even theorized that L617 originated in East-Central Europe and expanded to Iberia and to Britain from here, and that I'm descended from "leftovers" who did not move west. But after receiving DNA Tribes results of my dad, I started thinking that we might indeed have recent (from the last few centuries) Scottish ancestry.

I guess I'll have to order Big Y to check where is my place on L617 tree, whether my lineage is a sub-branch of Scottish lines or not. It does not help that my Scottish matches only tested STR markers and M269 - they have not ordered DF27 SNP Pack so far.

JonikW
08-10-2018, 10:00 PM
To be honest, until recently I was inclined to believe that this is all (both autosomal admixtures and Y-DNA) from ancient Celts, who lived in Southern Poland. Or perhaps even from Bell Beakers. In my previous posts on this forum I even theorized that L617 originated in East-Central Europe and expanded to Iberia and to Britain from here, and that I'm descended from "leftovers" he did not expand westward. But after receiving DNA Tribes results of my dad, I started thinking that we might indeed have recent (from the last few centuries) Scottish ancestry.

I guess I'll have to order Big Y to check where is my place on L617 tree, whether my lineage is descended from Scottish or not.

It does not help that my Scottish matches only tested STR markers and M269 - they have not ordered DF27 SNP Pack so far.

If you're talking your direct paternal line, then that should be pretty easy to prove. I hope you do take Big Y and find Scottish ancestry. That would be awesome.

Dmitry
08-10-2018, 10:07 PM
Matches on GEDmatch with over 20 Total cM:

- McKean
- Holmes
- Dalton
- Tupper
- Patch
- Halfar

Matches on GEDmatch with over 15 Total cM:

- Crawford
- Allen
- McLean
- Gordon Montgomery
- McKay

You should email them and ask them about their ancestral background.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:07 PM
I hope you do take Big Y and find Scottish ancestry. That would be awesome.

This is all quite confusing, actually. Let me explain:

My closest matches based on STR markers are all from Scotland - mainly Chisholm Clan. And they only tested STR markers and M269 - they did not buy DF27 SNP Pack so far, so there is no absolute certainty that they are L617 like me (but I guess they are because we match on STRs).

However, I tested some SNPs also below L617 at YSEQ, and according to YSEQ, I belong to FGC31068, check the link:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=618

^^^
This branch is actually Iberian (unless the Chisholm Clan belongs to it as well, in which case it will be Iberian-Scottish).

So I have "Iberian" subclade, but all of my matches are from Scotland - apparently they also have this "Iberian" subclade.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:09 PM
YSEQ is at war with FTDNA, so I cannot transfer my YSEQ results to FTDNA.

In FTDNA database I'm still officially just L617, but in YSEQ I'm L617>FGC31068.

So far all FGC31068 who ordered Big Y are from Spain.

If I order Big Y, then FGC31068 will become Spanish-Polish.

If Chisholms are also FGC31068, then it will be a Spanish-Scottish-Polish subclade.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 10:23 PM
YSEQ is at war with FTDNA, so I cannot transfer my YSEQ results to FTDNA.

In FTDNA database I'm still officially just L617, but in YSEQ I'm L617>FGC31068.

So far all FGC31068 who ordered Big Y are from Spain.

If I order Big Y, then FGC31068 will become Spanish-Polish.

If Chisholms are also FGC31068, then it will be a Spanish-Scottish-Polish subclade.

So you are NW-Euro or Spanish? I don't understand

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:28 PM
So you are NW-Euro or Spanish? I don't understand

It seems that this particular branch of L617 - FGC31068 - exists both in Spain and in Scotland. As for L617 as a whole, here is its distribution (I made this map over a year ago and haven't updated it since, perhaps there are some new samples by now):

M225 is equivalent of FGC31068 (according to YSEQ it seems that I'm part of this branch, but my Scottish matches are probably also part of it, so we cannot call it just Iberian anymore, considering that it is found also in Poland and in Scotland):

http://i.imgur.com/87kvu5Y.png

At the time of making this map I noticed a link with ancient Lugii (I didn't expect recent Scottish ancestry):

http://i.imgur.com/91eYtUe.png

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:37 PM
I don't understand

Autosomally, Scottish seems more probable than Iberian.

In terms of Y-DNA haplogroup, both are equally probable.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 10:41 PM
Ok I really don't know.

I am related with a bunch of Slav-Iberian mixed people though from mother part Jewish side. DNA Tribes Table 2 my results 13.5 Iberian + 5.7 Sephardic, MENA, Ashkenazi. Table 3 is 16.6 Galicia Spain. (This is all from Ukraine)

Is your kit called Peterskis Dad or something like that, or no?

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:42 PM
That is my dad's kit. Do you have a match with him?

I don't have your kit number and I don't know your nickname on GEDmatch, so I don't know.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:45 PM
Ok I really don't know.

I am related with a bunch of Slav-Iberian mixed people though from mother part Jewish side.

Yes, I remember that you are partially Sephardic.

Sephardic Jews are not really Iberian genetically, though. They are rather a mix of Italian and Eastern Med (Levant etc.).

Of course some of them have gentile Iberian admixture just like Ashkenazi Jews have some gentile Eastern European.

Your match with my dad can be through Polish ancestry as well, not necessarily Iberian (if my father has any Iberian).

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 10:46 PM
That is my dad's kit. Do you have a match with him?

Yes. I check his kit in the past I forget why I check but something I noticed made me run couple calcs, I forget what is the connection, where is his roots? Greater Poland also? Or Ukraine?

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 10:48 PM
Yes, I remember that you are partially Sephardic.

Sephardic Jews are not really Iberian genetically, though. They are rather a mix of Italian and Eastern Med (Levant etc.).

Of course some of them have gentile Iberian admixture just like Ashkenazi Jews have some gentile Eastern European.

Your match with my dad can be through Polish ancestry as well, not necessarily Iberian (if my father has any Iberian).

I get that too, depends which calc but I have some Sephardic Jewish, North African Jewish and Ashkenazi Jewish blood.

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 10:49 PM
Yes. I check his kit in the past I forget why I check but something I noticed made me run couple calcs, I forget what is the connection, where is his roots? Greater Poland also? Or Ukraine?

His recent ancestry is from Southern Greater Poland. I'm not aware of anything from Ukraine, but remember that Poles from Ukraine had ancestry from the west, because that's where Poles migrated to Ukraine from. Migration of Poles to Ukraine started in the 1300s.

I know that my surname is also present among some Polish families from Kresy (but rather among Poles from Belarus), but I have no idea if they are distantly related to our family from Wielkopolska, or just share the same surname without any genetic links.

Send me your GEDmatch kit number via PM, I will check how strong our match is.

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 10:59 PM
Recent ancestry is from Southern Greater Poland. I'm not aware of anything from Ukraine, but remember that Poles from Ukraine had ancestry from the west, because that's where Poles migrated to Ukraine from. Migration of Poles to Ukraine started in the 1300s.

I know that my surname is also present among some Polish families from Kresy, but no idea if they are related or just share the same surname.

My ancestors came from Russia, Ukraine, Balkans, Mediterranean but they have fought for Poland.

So maybe Jewish connection it is? I heard some history of Sephardics in Lodz. They are coming from Spain, Fez Morocco, Sicily, Balkans to Lodz. Some of them went to Lviv Ukraine. They working mostly textile industry, making clothing items? This Israeli lady she explain to me but I forget

Tomenable
08-10-2018, 11:04 PM
So maybe Jewish connection it is?

Most tests do not detect any Jewish autosomal DNA for me or my father.

My father's Eurogenes K36 has 2% of "Near_Eastern" admixture though:

Basque 0.29
Central_African 0.05
Central_Euro 10.15
East_Balkan 8.33
East_Central_Euro 19.23
Eastern_Euro 13.70
Fennoscandian 11.05
French 5.28
Iberian 6.23
Italian 3.34
Near_Eastern 1.93
North_Atlantic 9.10
North_Sea 10.51
Volga-Ural 0.36
West_Caucasian 0.24
West_Med 0.17

Idwaajeden
08-10-2018, 11:08 PM
Iberian Italian Balkan Near Eastern etc can all have shares with Jewish, I sent kit Gedmatch and Genesis PM

Saetro
08-11-2018, 04:25 AM
The best way to know if you have Scottish ancestry or not is to see if you have any Scottish cousin matches on ancetsry/23andme.

Until the last couple of years Scots have not tested their autosomal and even then very few.
I have many friends researching their Scottish ancestry who wish this were NOT so, but it is.
They have their DNA done hoping to find a match in Scotland who can help them, but instead they are overwhelmed by matches from the USA who arrived in the 1600/1700s from where they know not, often merely assuming they are Scots/Irish and therefore originally Scottish.
(It's not their fault. They are simply doing the best with the information they have.)


Tomenable, #8
I tested with FTDNA so far (not with Ancestry/23andMe).

On FTDNA and on GEDmatch most of my matches are White Americans (including many with recent Polish ancestry and some without it). Really, they should split it into "New World matches" and "Old World matches", because Americans are by far more numerous.

Absolutely.
Australians and New Zealanders emigrated within the last 200 years and mostly know where they came from in Scotland.
Some Canadians also.

Where Scots themselves have tested tends to be YDNA at FTDNA.
But again, they don't usually see the need and the diaspora is usually there in far greater numbers.

08-11-2018, 07:45 AM
Supposed Scottish ancestry is from my father's side and I tested him.

He has many matches >20 cM with Americans and Australians with Scottish (or possible Scottish) surnames, like McKean, Adams, Dalton, etc.

Sadly they don't have GEDCOMs so I would need to e-mail them all and ask if they are fully Scottish with no Polish, etc.

Do you have a list of Polish surnames that might be originally derived from a Scottish surname?

Just for the record on 23andme my Polish wife gets 0.5 % British and Irish. Not sure if that is significant or not.

Also I think for the record, after the Higland Clearences, many many Scots emigrated to the US, along the Appalachians, South Carolina etc .etc.. these areas have undoubtedly the highest disphora of Scots.

JonikW
08-11-2018, 08:07 AM
Until the last couple of years Scots have not tested their autosomal and even then very few.
I have many friends researching their Scottish ancestry who wish this were NOT so, but it is.
They have their DNA done hoping to find a match in Scotland who can help them, but instead they are overwhelmed by matches from the USA who arrived in the 1600/1700s from where they know not, often merely assuming they are Scots/Irish and therefore originally Scottish.
(It's not their fault. They are simply doing the best with the information they have.)



Absolutely.
Australians and New Zealanders emigrated within the last 200 years and mostly know where they came from in Scotland.
Some Canadians also.

Where Scots themselves have tested tends to be YDNA at FTDNA.
But again, they don't usually see the need and the diaspora is usually there in far greater numbers.

I agree there are many more new world testers. But there are also UK ones and a cousin match there would make a link with Britain look more likely. The only US matches who I've been able to find out anything useful from are ones where the family emigrated recently. But it does happen and I've found matches that way with rural Breconshire, for example.

Judith
09-06-2018, 12:43 PM
Hi Tomenable, like other posters I think only your autosomal cousins with prove Scottish ancestors in the last 500 years, and for that you need Ancestry. For example I have 30,000 matches there compared with2500 at FTDNA.
Even when you remove the >50% with no tree that is still a good set of samples. Yes 90% are only USA but that leaves a lot who are not.
Your Y dna will be Late Neolithic migrations since you state Iberian as well as Scotland. You will be familiar with the western farmer migration via Iberia as distinguished from the eastern direct from Anatolia, and how that shows in some Poles as a more western influence instead of eastern.
But that Neolithic substrate does not prevent there being an historical time migration as well and teasing out the two strands will be tricky.

Aroon1916
11-12-2018, 08:53 PM
An interesting thread. I have also read about Scottish immigration to Prussia, Poland, etc. I am of mixed Irish and English background. I do get some results for Eastern Europe. On K36, Mecklenberg Vorpommern is fairly high. It might not mean anything but I wondered if there was a connection. Besides settlers, there were many soldiers from the British Isles involved in continental wars (i.e. religious wars). Perhaps a west to east migration (but this is just speculation on my part).