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Kurd
08-12-2018, 12:46 AM
The most detailed analysis on ethnogenesis of Kurds to date using formal stats and the latest sequenced aDNA from Central Asia and the Eurasian steppe. Part 2 which relates to present day S Asians will be forthcoming in the near future:

Impact of the Iron Age Saka and Scythians on the demography of Kurds

http://www.eurasiandna.com/2018/07/01/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/

Questions will only be entertained in the comments section under the article

Kurd
09-08-2018, 05:26 PM
I have updated the article based on new analysis results (table 5). http://www.eurasiandna.com/2018/07/01/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/

Although the 2-ancestry stream models consisting of Haji-Firuz-Chl and Sintashta-MLBA are infeasible for the Kurdish samples, and can be rejected, the models with Sintashta-MLBA become feasible and produce good fits for Kurds, with the addition of Medieval Turkics such as Kipchaks (Table 5)

Kurd
09-12-2018, 04:22 AM
A new article titled "How to interpret your ancestry admixture results" at http://www.eurasiandna.com/2018/08/18/how-to-interpret-your-ancestry-admixture-results/ with a focus on W Asian and European populations.

https://i.imgur.com/MyVdbIl.jpg

Kurd
09-16-2018, 06:12 PM
I have another paper in the works that combines historical and genetic evidence we have to date to shed further light on the mysterious origins of the Baloch and Kurds and their intertwined histories. Here is an excerpt:


Genetic and linguistic evidence suggests that there were some interactions between the R1a Y-DNA Eurasian Steppe pastoralist Andronovo/Sintashta forefathers of Iranic peoples and the agriculturalists of the BMAC, prior to the latter's demise around 3600 years ago.

On the genetic side autosomal DNA analysis of present day Kurds, Baloch, and Pashtuns conducted by us indicates admixture between their forefathers and the ancient Bronze Age agriculturalists of BMAC. We conducted this genetic analysis using ancient DNA samples from the Gonur region of Turkmenistan, and the Sappali-Tepe and Dzharkutan areas of Uzbekistan.

The proto Baloch/Kurds who were genetically derived from Andronovo/Sintashta Steppe pastoralist cultures of Central Asia and the agriculturalists of the BMAC headed towards the ancient region known as Balashakan located in NW Iran to the west of the Caspian Sea around 3000 years ago. Balashakan means land of the Balash. The Baloch were not known by their present day name until they migrated from Balashakan to the Baluchistan and Sistan regions of SE Iran around 1400 years ago.

From a cultural and linguistic perspective, the proto Baloch and Kurds which by now had separated appear to be the larger tribes of Balashakan. They lived there along with other tribes possibly ancestral to Armenians and Azeris. It is unknown as to why the Baloch left Balashakan, whereas the Kurds decided to stay there. However, some Kurdish tribes decided to migrate with the Baloch southeastward around 1400 years ago to Balochistan, and are now incorporated into the Baloch national identity (Dashti 2012), just like some of the Kurds who migrated to Balochistan 500 years ago during Shah Abbas's reign.

It is at this point where the Kurds who remained behind in the northwestern Iran region started to genetically differentiate from their Baloch and Kurd brethren who previously migrated to Balochistan. Whereas the Kurds that remained behind in the Balashakan region further admixed with the predominant local genetic substrate which is associated with Zagrosian Chalcolithic farmers, the Kurds and Baloch who migrated to Balochistan and Sistan admixed with locals who had substantial genetic input from the material cultures of the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC).

Thus whereas the Kurds who remained behind in Northwestern Iran gained DNA related to Chalcolithic Zagrosian farmers, the Kurds and Baloch of Balochistan gained DNA related to Ancestral South Asians. However, many present day Kurds of Kurdistan genetically remain as the closest relatives of some Baloch and Brahui tribes, particularly those of Iranian Balochistan. Also linguistically Kurdish remains as the closest language to Balochi.

On the linguistic side evidence of this interaction between the pastoralist Indo-Europeans and the agriculturalists of the BMAC comes in the form of non-Indo-European loadwords (Parpola 2015:81,82; Pinault 2003, 2006; Witzel 1995:103) such as:

yaviya - irrigation canal
kaa - well
Hushtra - camel
kara - donkey
kachyapa - tortoise
Indra - divinity (also in Mittani)
Rishi - one with spiritual insight

Based on the author's knowledge of Urdu, Hindi, and Kurdish, "Rishi", "Kachyava", and "kaa" seem to have been retained in the Aryan branch of Indo-Iranian, where Kachyava and Kaa are similar to the Urdu/Hindi words Kachva, and Kua, respectively. Hushtra and kara were retained in the Iranian branch such as Kurdish, where Hushtra and Kara are known as Heshtar and Kar, respectively. The author is unfamiliar with Sanskrit and thus unable to make any connection between those words and Sanskrit.

Kurd
09-16-2018, 07:04 PM
Also being investigated in the study is any shared genetic drift between Kurds (Iraq and Turkey) and BMAC/Baloch/Paniya to the exclusion of neighbors such as Armenians, Georgians, Assyrians, Arabs, Iranian Jews, Iran-Chl, and Iran-N

Patarames
09-16-2018, 08:03 PM
How certain are we about names such as Baloch and Balashakan? Are there any mentions of such people from ancient Greek sources?
I'm not aware of any indications and the case is similar for the name Kurd.

I ask because if we want to go as far back as the genesis of Iranic people by the proposed Sintashta/BMAC mix, we need firm stations and times.

We have cases like Kermanis, a rather distant Iranic people that are mentioned by the same name by Herodotus as they are called today, by themselves. While people like the Bactrians are not called by that name soon after the fall of the Achaemenid empire.

I don't question the Kurd-Baloch split, I'm more interested whether there is an ancient primary source for it which I have missed. But I also doubt that a Iranic tribe with the name Baloch existed 2500 years ago and was missed by ancient Greek sources.

StarDS9
09-16-2018, 08:34 PM
How certain are we about names such as Baloch and Balashakan? Are there any mentions of such people from ancient Greek sources?
I'm not aware of any indications and the case is similar for the name Kurd.

I ask because if we want to go as far back as the genesis of Iranic people by the proposed Sintashta/BMAC mix, we need firm stations and times.

We have cases like Kermanis, a rather distant Iranic people that are mentioned by the same name by Herodotus as they are called today, by themselves. While people like the Bactrians are not called by that name soon after the fall of the Achaemenid empire.

I don't question the Kurd-Baloch split, I'm more interested whether there is an ancient primary source for it which I have missed. But I also doubt that a Iranic tribe with the name Baloch existed 2500 years ago and was missed by ancient Greek sources.

During the late Parthian and Sassanid era the term Kewrt appeared to describe Nomadic Iranian tribes. This where the term comes from, Lors were also described as Kurds upto just 100 years ago. It was Arabs who popularized term Kurd as most Iranian tribes lived a Nomadic lifestyle like the Bakhtiari's do today.

The Sassanids abolished all the major Iranic tribes like Medes and Parthians and most of these groups split into different small groups as the terms Medes and Parthians dissapeared during the Sassind era.

Also the Achaemenid used Saka for Nomadic tribes.

StarDS9
09-16-2018, 08:46 PM
The Shabankara tribe are essentially the oldest Kurds, they live in Bushehr province. Not sure what language they speak, likely similar to Luri.

Ardashir 1 was of this tribe.

Kurd
09-16-2018, 09:16 PM
of course baloch will share more genetic drift with kurds compared to those populations above.

"heshtir" "kar" (camel, donkey) - but these words are similar in farsi too (shotor, khar). Need for better evidence of balcohi-kurdish connection other than being NW-iranic...

The words are given as linguistic evidence of interaction between the Indo-Iranians (Various Persian tribes, Kurds, Baloch, Pashtun, and some Indo-Aryans) and BMAC and not as common Kurdish-Balochi words to the exclusion of Persian. I'm not going to go there as the preponderance of the linguistic evidence out there does show Kurdish closest to Balochi. I'll spend my time on the historical evidence of ties between the 2 as well as the genetic.


On the linguistic side evidence of this interaction between the pastoralist Indo-Europeans and the agriculturalists of the BMAC comes in the form of non-Indo-European loadwords (Parpola 2015:81,82; Pinault 2003, 2006; Witzel 1995:103) such as:

yaviya - irrigation canal
kaa - well
Hushtra - camel
kara - donkey
kachyapa - tortoise
Indra - divinity (also in Mittani)
Rishi - one with spiritual insight

Kurd
09-16-2018, 09:30 PM
How certain are we about names such as Baloch and Balashakan? Are there any mentions of such people from ancient Greek sources?
I'm not aware of any indications and the case is similar for the name Kurd.

I ask because if we want to go as far back as the genesis of Iranic people by the proposed Sintashta/BMAC mix, we need firm stations and times.

We have cases like Kermanis, a rather distant Iranic people that are mentioned by the same name by Herodotus as they are called today, by themselves. While people like the Bactrians are not called by that name soon after the fall of the Achaemenid empire.

I don't question the Kurd-Baloch split, I'm more interested whether there is an ancient primary source for it which I have missed. But I also doubt that a Iranic tribe with the name Baloch existed 2500 years ago and was missed by ancient Greek sources.

Sure, all valid questions which I address in the paper. The proto-Kurds were not called Kurds in Balashakan. They were known as Cyrtii back then (ancestors of Kurds & Lurs), just like Baloch were known as Balash.

Unfortunately Kurds, Baloch, Brahui, and other Iranics are not good at retaining written historical accounts. Some of the rock inscriptions in Sassanian Iran contain the Balashakan region, with a description of the Balash ethnic group in ancient Greek and Armenian accounts (Dashti 2012).

I'll also discuss the Brahui and Baloch tribes bearing Kurdish names such as "Kurd" and bearing names of Kurdish tribes from the Iran/Iraq region.

Kurd
09-16-2018, 09:44 PM
Please show some evidences other than some baloch nationalists... and with comparing to other west-iranian languages.



Like I said I don't have time at the moment to get into the linguistics Balochi-Kurdish, do some digging. I'll do that if I have time.


I have seen your desperate and weird calculator before, like that "kurdish calculator", were south asians scored more kurdish than kurds

No need to go on personal attacks and start insinuating that I had fraudulently used S Asian references as Kurdish references. Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds and Feyli Kurds were used as references for the calculator. The results are what they are, nothing more, nothing less.

Learn to respect others as others respect you. I certainly don't deserve this type treatment for all the time and effort I put in for free.

You should be thankful that there are people that invest their time to shed some light on West/South Asian population history. People like you give Kurds a bad name. I'm starting to believe the saying that Kurds deserve what they get. What do you do when you finally have a researcher spending time to answer many questions that people have on Kurdish history and how it ties in to the region. Instead of being thankful, you attack him. Great motivation for the researcher to continue with his work!

If you can't behave, I'll ask the moderators to close this thread.

Kurd
09-16-2018, 09:47 PM
@ Khana and Reza

I'm requesting that you closely watch this thread, and close it if you deem it appropriate.

Thank you

StarDS9
09-16-2018, 09:57 PM
come on...

What do you mean? The Shabankara are the earliest tribe that still exist today who were reffered to as Kurds. And yes Ardashir mother was of this tribe.

khanabadoshi
09-16-2018, 10:04 PM
Currently preoccupied. However, I'll be on tonight to go through the thread. I hope the discussion stays civil.
Generally, the Kurdish section is well-mannered, so I haven't felt much need to police it.
That being said, if you guys feel our presence here is lacking, I'll start going through the section more often.

Kurd
09-17-2018, 12:34 AM
I want to clarify in case there is some misunderstanding, that it is not my intent to minimize the Zagrosian Chalcolithic ancestry of present day Kurds. In fact my own analysis using formal stats at http://www.eurasiandna.com/2018/07/01/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/#comments clearly shows genetic continuity from Chalcolithic to the present in the Kurdistan region, and indicates that Iran-Chl forms the bulk of ancestry for present day Kurds.

No matter how you want to slice the pie, whether trying to model Kurds formally as Iran-Chl + Saka, or Iran-Chl + Sintashta-MLBA + Turkic, Iran-Chl forms about 60% to 75% of the ancestry of Kurds depending on the Kurdish sample studied.

However, by the same token, Sintashta-MLBA, Saka, BMAC, and Turkics are also Kurd ancestors. That is why present day Kurds are Central Asian shifted compared to their Iran-Chl ancestors. Thus, to be fair, Sintashta-MLBA, Sakas, and Turkics also deserve the title "Ancestors of Kurds" and their contribution or role in Kurd ethnogenesis should not be minimized.

Kanenas
09-17-2018, 01:23 AM
Sure, all valid questions which I address in the paper. The proto-Kurds were not called Kurds in Balashakan. They were known as Cyrtii back then (ancestors of Kurds & Lurs), just like Baloch were known as Balash.


There was an IE root *gʰordʰ associated with the meaning 'enclose, fence' that got the meaning 'town, city' in some branches.

There was the Phrygian city of Gordium, the cities of Gortyna<Gortuna* in Arcadia and in Crete, Cortona** in Italy.

*That is considered 'pre-Greek'. Certainly it can't be Attic but I find unlikely the view that the similarity to the IE root is coincidental.
**That city was supposed to have been an Umbrian city originally. It is considered originally 'Pelasgian' by Dionysius of Halikarnassus who considered Pelasgians to have been 'Hellenes'.


And of course there is the proto-Slavic gordъ with that meaning.

The name Gorduene, imo, can be like those above and theoretically a name like Kurtii could have been used for a population from a place with a the name which contained that IE root in some form. Maybe it could have denoted a place of origin. I can think other etymologies too, but just saying.

Kurd
09-17-2018, 10:27 PM
The suggested interactions between the agriculturalists at BMAC and early Indo-Iranian pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe in Damgaard 2018 Language Supp was investigated to determine whether we could pick up any evidence of this interaction between the early Indo-Iranians and the BMAC in the genetic substructure of various West Asian populations using formal stats (qpAdm) by attempting to model West Asian populations as a 4 way mix of:

Haji-Firuz-Chl
BMAC (Gonur-BA, Turkmenistan)
Sintashta-MLBA
Turkic (Medieval Kipchaks)

The article at http://www.eurasiandna.com/2018/09/17/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/ has been updated to include the findings

https://i.imgur.com/F6TYASB.png

Patarames
09-18-2018, 07:45 PM
Why use Sintashta MLBA over Saka samples when Sintashta admixture is in the dark pre-history while the Scythian/Saka expedition right into what is now the Kurdish regions is a clear historical event?
I mean modern towns like Saqqez are said to have been the result of Saka settlers.
That expedition was of a magnitude that it destroyed the Assyrian empire and defeated the Medes that together with the Persians created the largest empire known up to that point.

Although a good part of the Scythian/Saka confederation moved back to the steppe after several decades, I can't stress the importance of this event.

So together with Turkics, Sakas are historical and A MUST HAVE in such a analysis. Taking Sintashta-only just reduces resolution and gives supporters of the Steppe theory a support. If we can have more resolution we should do it to avoid "alternatives due to low resolution".

Kurd
09-19-2018, 04:01 AM
Why use Sintashta MLBA over Saka samples when Sintashta admixture is in the dark pre-history while the Scythian/Saka expedition right into what is now the Kurdish regions is a clear historical event?
I mean modern towns like Saqqez are said to have been the result of Saka settlers.
That expedition was of a magnitude that it destroyed the Assyrian empire and defeated the Medes that together with the Persians created the largest empire known up to that point.

Although a good part of the Scythian/Saka confederation moved back to the steppe after several decades, I can't stress the importance of this event.

So together with Turkics, Sakas are historical and A MUST HAVE in such a analysis. Taking Sintashta-only just reduces resolution and gives supporters of the Steppe theory a support. If we can have more resolution we should do it to avoid "alternatives due to low resolution".


I posted the MLBA models for transparency reasons so that I'm not accused of being biased. For a detailed analysis refer to http://www.eurasiandna.com/2018/09/17/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/

Whereas qpAdm 2 ancestry models Sintashta/Iran-Chl are failures for the most part (table 4), they turn into good models for Kurds when Medieval Turkic is added. The problem I have with these is that they imply:

- a Sintashta/Iran-Chl population stayed isolated in the Zagros mountains for 2000-3000 years until Turkics started arriving in Western Iran

- Sintashta-MLBA is old and predates the Iranian - Indic language split, thus this isolated Sintashta-Iran-Chl population probably did not speak an Iranian language. With Turkic added one still does not get to Kurdish which is an Iranian language.

On the other hand the 2 way Iran-Chl-Saka models are solid models for Kurds (Table 2). The Scythian language, unlike the proto Indo-Iranian spoken by Sintashta, was an Iranian language albeit extinct now, thus less of a leap to get to Kurdish.

Saka could also indirectly contribute Steppe-MLBA type admixture to Kurds. This combined with the obvious presence of E Asian ancestry in Kurds which could not have been contributed by Iran-Chl and Sintashta-MLBA strengthens the case even further.

Some horse mounting innovation shared between Saka and later Iranians can only help.

Patarames
09-19-2018, 05:33 AM
- We are certain that Iran_Chl played a role due to genetics (original to the region and ~70% of the auDNA of the modern population)

- We assume a pre-historic role of Sintashta steppe MLBA

- We assume a pre-historic role of BMAC

- We are certain about Scythian/Saka admixture from history

- We are certain about Turkic admixture from history

- We know about other historic contacts with different people but the above ones seem to be roughly sufficient for ~90% of the modern auDNA make-up

As you said Saka would be a indirect source for steppe MLBA, namely the one supported by credible historical reports.

We observe a agenda to assign steppe MLBA to Sintashta, so if we can increase resolution and assign a portion of it to Saka, we should (although that would be thanks to your effort and those with steppe agenda would like to avoid it).

I think everyone is thankful for your calculator which showed the role of Saka indirect Steppe MLBA to theoretical direct Steppe MBLA.
No one can accuse you any agenda for increasing the resolution. The better fit wins, the high resolution wins.

Iranic and Saka were culturally related. Similar to Turkic tribes, they infiltrate into the Iranic tribe structures pretty fast. This is in contrast to other historic contacts like Macedons/Greeks which would not integrate as easily into the tribe structure.

I still remember the Persian test sample in your BA-IA calculator which showed zero Sintashta admixture while significant levels of Saka related indirect Steppe MBLA. There medieval Turkics with their Steppe MBLA share were not included.