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Moe12
08-12-2018, 07:29 PM
Hello,
Greetings from Lebanon! I am a new member here.
So recently I have been looking for my origins. My family, like some families, descend from the Arabs who came of Lebanon. My family went to a rural village in Lebanon, and mixed with natives there, who also converted. (I belong to Shi'ite Islam).

My family is originally, what you would call "Sayyed", as we are descended from Musa al-Kadhim, who is descended from Ali ibn Abi Talib through his son Hussain ibn Ali. According to this project, We who are descended from Hussain bear the Haplogroup J1-FGC30416. This haplogroup was the most common according to them.

So my question is, what is the origin of this haplogroup?! If this haplogroup seems very specific, I'd also be pleased with the haplogroup of J1-L859. Is there any way we can point out the place it originated from, possible places it migrated or how it got to Arabia?

Thanks for everyone who read this, and who answered. I hope I am not bothersome as such questions seem repetitive!
Thanks, again. I also have to point out my knowledge is limited in genetics. Apologies for any thing that sounded illogical or false. I am not near an expert or knowledgeable of this matter.
Cheers!

Note: My flags may seem somewhat weird, I've based them on historical sources/claims and family marriages. Just wanted to clear this out.

Akra20m
08-12-2018, 08:52 PM
Welcome :)
I would suggest you do a quick search on this forum. You might find what you are looking for. Also hopefully some of the senior well-informed members could help you with your question.

Agamemnon
08-12-2018, 11:09 PM
FGC30416 is a subclade of FGC8701, a sub-branch of L859 which is the diagnostic marker of the Bani Hashim. The presence of this marker among Lebanese Metwalis is interesting given the fact that Lebanon isn't a tribal society, despite this they seem to have taken Sayyid status very seriously. One similar case I can recall is the Tabaja family from Kfar Tebnit (in the Nabatiyeh district), despite the ostensibly Phoenician toponym this family carries a subclade of FGC8701.

Moe12
08-13-2018, 08:46 AM
FGC30416 is a subclade of FGC8701, a sub-branch of L859 which is the diagnostic marker of the Bani Hashim. The presence of this marker among Lebanese Metwalis is interesting given the fact that Lebanon isn't a tribal society, despite this they seem to have taken Sayyid status very seriously. One similar case I can recall is the Tabaja family from Kfar Tebnit (in the Nabatiyeh district), despite the ostensibly Phoenician toponym this family carries a subclade of FGC8701.

Yes you are correct. We aren't a tribal society, however the "Sayyed" title of an honorific title that Muslims use (mainly Shi'ite) to refer their origins from the Prophet through Ali ibn Abi Talib (through his two sons). I can name some Sayyed families such as: al-Musawi, al-Hussaini, al-Sayyed etc... However I am not originally from these families, since my ancestor got isolated from the rest. We are a very small family and I don't feel it is good/wise to write my name on the internet, so I won't.

Anyways, is there any place we can assume this Haplo-group/type originated from? I've read somewhere that it originated at the Levant. Yet another claim surpassed it to Mesopotamia. So do we have any knowledge of J1-L859?

Thanks.

IronHorse
08-13-2018, 09:18 AM
This lineage is a clade with a Jewish group (who are -L859 but +ZS2102) see here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/default.aspx?section=yresults

Qusai ibn Kilab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusai_ibn_Kilab) is said to have come from the Levant to Mecca to unite the Quraysh, maybe its a true story then.

Agamemnon
08-13-2018, 10:32 PM
Yes you are correct. We aren't a tribal society, however the "Sayyed" title of an honorific title that Muslims use (mainly Shi'ite) to refer their origins from the Prophet through Ali ibn Abi Talib (through his two sons). I can name some Sayyed families such as: al-Musawi, al-Hussaini, al-Sayyed etc... However I am not originally from these families, since my ancestor got isolated from the rest. We are a very small family and I don't feel it is good/wise to write my name on the internet, so I won't.

Anyways, is there any place we can assume this Haplo-group/type originated from? I've read somewhere that it originated at the Levant. Yet another claim surpassed it to Mesopotamia. So do we have any knowledge of J1-L859?

Thanks.

L859 probably originated in the northern parts of the Tihama while FGC8712 (immediately upstream) is likely to have originated in what is now Southern Syria and Northern Jordan.

Moe12
08-14-2018, 06:54 PM
L859 probably originated in the northern parts of the Tihama while FGC8712 (immediately upstream) is likely to have originated in what is now Southern Syria and Northern Jordan.

Is there a relation between J1-L859 and J1-FGC11?
Is there any specific time frame?
Sorry if that sounds foolish or uneducated, and sorry for asking too much.

Thanks.

Batroun
08-14-2018, 07:19 PM
Is there a relation between J1-L859 and J1-FGC11? Sorry if that sounds foolish or uneducated, and sorry for asking too much.

Thanks.

FGC11 is a branch under L859. Btw welcome to the forum!

Moe12
08-14-2018, 07:35 PM
FGC11 is a branch under L859. Btw welcome to the forum!

Thanks! :)

Agamemnon
08-14-2018, 09:11 PM
Is there a relation between J1-L859 and J1-FGC11?
Is there any specific time frame?
Sorry if that sounds foolish or uneducated, and sorry for asking too much.

Thanks.

Like Batroun said, L859 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L859/) is ultimately a branch of FGC11 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/) (which is the main Arabian branch of L858 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/)).

Batroun
08-17-2018, 09:40 PM
Thanks! :)

Btw, would be cool to see your admixture results!

Moe12
08-20-2018, 04:47 PM
Btw, would be cool to see your admixture results!

Yes! I am very excited to see it as well :) I want to also conduct Y-DNA and mtDNA to find out more, and in my opinion I find Y-DNA > mtDNA > auDNA for some reason. I think because the Y-DNA keeps being inherited regardless of ANY intervention. Being descended from Hussain is a claim made by a certain person from my family. And I don't feel good about such claims without evidence. He told me that we have a family tree, but have you been hearing of fake "Tasayyud" as said in Arabic, which means claiming to be a Sayyed. I have found a man who's name is my current surname and he lived around 410 CE in a town very close to mine. However I can't claim anything at this point.

Having a family claiming multiple origins is a confusing thing. I can recall my ancestors up till the 18th/17th century, but not far back to 7th century.

(if you are wondering I am from the area of Mt. Leb.)

I can't figure out anything right now till I get my DNA tested.
I guess we'll see ;)

Batroun
08-21-2018, 06:47 PM
Yes! I am very excited to see it as well :) I want to also conduct Y-DNA and mtDNA to find out more, and in my opinion I find Y-DNA > mtDNA > auDNA for some reason. I think because the Y-DNA keeps being inherited regardless of ANY intervention. Being descended from Hussain is a claim made by a certain person from my family. And I don't feel good about such claims without evidence. He told me that we have a family tree, but have you been hearing of fake "Tasayyud" as said in Arabic, which means claiming to be a Sayyed. I have found a man who's name is my current surname and he lived around 410 CE in a town very close to mine. However I can't claim anything at this point.

Having a family claiming multiple origins is a confusing thing. I can recall my ancestors up till the 18th/17th century, but not far back to 7th century.

(if you are wondering I am from the area of Mt. Leb.)

I can't figure out anything right now till I get my DNA tested.
I guess we'll see ;)

Please let us know! we are also in a time where DNA from the Levant(especially Lebanon) is starting to get much more attention.

it is interesting to note that Shia and Sunnis in Lebanon tend to have higher frequencies of Arabian paternal markers but also higher amounts of European percentages in their admixture calculators than Christians specifically Maronites(from what I've seen, friends/extended family).

Which area in Mount Lebanon are you from, if you don't mind sharing.

KingofPhoenicia001
08-21-2018, 07:25 PM
Yes you are correct. We aren't a tribal society, however the "Sayyed" title of an honorific title that Muslims use (mainly Shi'ite) to refer their origins from the Prophet through Ali ibn Abi Talib (through his two sons). I can name some Sayyed families such as: al-Musawi, al-Hussaini, al-Sayyed etc.

Hello, welcome to the forum! Interesting haplogroup, which I think does prove your family history. However, I wonder if everyone with these surnames is a legitimate descendant of Ali and Hussein. I have a DNA relative on 23andme with the surname el-Husseini, but he belongs to haplogroup E-M123... Hope you get to post autosomal results soon!

Moe12
08-22-2018, 08:04 PM
Please let us know! we are also in a time where DNA from the Levant(especially Lebanon) is starting to get much more attention.

it is interesting to note that Shia and Sunnis in Lebanon tend to have higher frequencies of Arabian paternal markers but also higher amounts of European percentages in their admixture calculators than Christians specifically Maronites(from what I've seen, friends/extended family).

Which area in Mount Lebanon are you from, if you don't mind sharing.

I have also found it interesting. Well it is not surprising although, it is very normal to see more Arabian origins for Muslims since settlements happened. I know some friends whose families are known to belong to Arabian origins. I can't really claim mine since I don't want to look like some sort of a "liar". My ancestors have been in my original hometown since the 15th or 12th century as some graves there show. I really wonder how can I be related to the family in the South (Sayyeds) even though there is no relation between us.

Moreover my family includes Christians and Sunnis. :P

Oh and I am from the area between Keserwan and Jbeil. (Didn't want to pinpoint it exactly, if it's not a problem).

Moe12
08-22-2018, 08:10 PM
Hello, welcome to the forum! Interesting haplogroup, which I think does prove your family history. However, I wonder if everyone with these surnames is a legitimate descendant of Ali and Hussein. I have a DNA relative on 23andme with the surname el-Husseini, but he belongs to haplogroup E-M123... Hope you get to post autosomal results soon!

Thanks! :) The haplogroup J1-L859 is indeed interesting however I don't know if it's exactly my Paternal Haplogroup. I will conduct ftDNA Y-DNA test soon (and autosomal DNA) and will display them on the forums here.

And I don't think E-M123 is any where near Sayyed ..... I think it's J1-L859 although some argue for J2a4 but I would insist on J1-L859 since it is in the majority.

:)