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View Full Version : Where is Z8 in Ancient DNA?



Wing Genealogist
08-19-2018, 01:18 PM
U106>>L48>Z9>>Z2>Z7>Z8 is a large subclade today. Roughly 15% of European U106+ individuals have been found to be Z8+ per the Open Search dataset https://search.hli.io/?q=","https://search.hli.io/?q=

Only one Z8+ Ancient/Medieval DNA individual has been discovered to date. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rpJP0Bt4qUQb9wWBFA7i1tLPV75ie_qS0iplwvvlVmQ/edit#gid=1743270299 Ancient/Medieval/Royal DNA tab.

The one Z8+ individual was found in the Anorim 2018 study https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/268250, SZ2 from a cemetery at Szólád, Somogy, Hungary.

This clade is certainly old enough. According to Iain McDonald's work (http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html based on Build 37 Big Y results) this clade is roughly dated to ca 1233 BC.

It feels like we are playing a kind of "hide and seek" game, and Z8 is particularly good at hiding.

Wing Genealogist
08-19-2018, 01:32 PM
By comparison, Z156 (U106>>Z381>Z156) is a slightly larger subclade today (20% of European U106 today). It is also considerably older than Z8 (ca 2864 BC compared to 1233 BC for Z8).

We currently have seven individuals we are reasonably confident are Z156+ (and several more individuals who look to be Z156+).

Wing Genealogist
08-19-2018, 01:40 PM
Another comparison: Z331/Z347 (U106>>L48>Z9>Z331) is a fairly small subclade today (7% of European U106 today compared to 15% for Z8). Z331/Z347 is considerably older than Z8 (ca 2198 BC compared to 1233 BC for Z8).

We currently have 4 ancient individuals who are positive for the Z331/Z347 clade (one from the Lombard sample at Szólád, Somogy, Hungary with the other 3 all found in Southern Germany). Given this concentration of Z326 (vs the lack of Z8 individuals) it is likely the three Ergolding, Bavaria individuals (STR tested in 2009 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702742/) were also Z326+.

Wing Genealogist
08-19-2018, 06:32 PM
It is known that male lines certainly rise and fall. A great example of this is the various ancient/medieval Royal Houses (such as the Plantagenets and Capetians). Given the fact every clade has its own individual founder, the clades themselves are likely to rise and fall in proportion to the population with the vast majority of clades eventually becoming extinct.

One question I have is whether Z8 gained much more prominence after the ancient/medieval period currently being studied (roughly to the 7th Century AD) or whether we simply have not found a "hot spot" for this clade yet.

Bollox79
08-28-2018, 01:06 AM
It is known that male lines certainly rise and fall. A great example of this is the various ancient/medieval Royal Houses (such as the Plantagenets and Capetians). Given the fact every clade has its own individual founder, the clades themselves are likely to rise and fall in proportion to the population with the vast majority of clades eventually becoming extinct.

One question I have is whether Z8 gained much more prominence after the ancient/medieval period currently being studied (roughly to the 7th Century AD) or whether we simply have not found a "hot spot" for this clade yet.

Good question... as I was just looking at one of my copies of Iain's DF98 King's Cluster pdf and noticed what he is talking about as far as branching and timing - Z326 branching out on his diagram around 700ish B.C and Z8 taking off and branching even more around 500 B.C. aka looking like they spread during the early Germanic culture spread south... yes where is Z8 if it was very successful in spreading in what we would assume is Germanic culture etc (Jastorf?) as we are seeing Z9 (right Z319 etc with these "Longobards"?) spread with the Germanic Migration period burials... we also see Z305 and DF96 in a few samples, but need more samples before I'd say it strongly supports also a Migration spread for DF96 - but one thing that bugs me about the Baiuvarii and the DF96... look at their autosomal:

AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 106: U106+ (possibly based on BAM analysis kit run by several people and Yleaf for the Z305 result - update: 3 reads for U106 and one for Z305 per Alex W.) - Z381+, Z156+, Z305+): Male aged 60+. Grave goods included: spatha, belt, bag, vessel, glass. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480 - 510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Saxony and NE Germany. Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 10 per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.” Additional info from the book “Local, Regional and Ethnic Identities in Early Medieval Cemeteries in Bavaria: "The belt buckles of Phase 1 were small and usually made of a single or two pieces (buckle and counter-plate).” AED 106’s counter-plate was decorated with gold-in-garnet inlay.

AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 92: U106+ (per BAM analysis - update: 35 reads(!) for U106 per Alex W.): Male aged 20-30. Grave goods included: spatha, seax, lance, shield, belt, bag. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA very near Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in NE Germany (almost on top of it). Edit: Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 23 (the highest number of grave goods in this cemetery of the samples looked at in the paper Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes). Additional info from the book “Local, Regional and Ethnic Identities in Early Medieval Cemeteries in Bavaria: "The belt buckles of Phase 1 were small and usually made of a single or two pieces (buckle and counter-plate).” AED 92’s belt buckle was made from rock crystal (one of two at Altenerding).

ALH (Altheim cemetery) 1: U106+, (ALH 1 has now been found positive for the following SNPs by Alex Williamson: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>S264/Z156>S265/Z304>DF96>FGC13326>S22047 ). Male aged 50-60+. Grave goods included: Grave was disturbed/robbed. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite: Undateable, but other graves ALH 2, 3, and 10 were carbon dated in the range of roughly 260-535 AD (using lowest and highest estimates). Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA in between Norway, Denmark, and Northern Netherlands/Friesland.

STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstraße cemetery) 316: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 4 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-60. Grave goods included: belt, bag, vessel. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA between North Norway and Norwegians and somewhat near ALH 1. Phase 2 burial (1st half of 6th cent: 500-550 AD) and 7 grave goods per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstraße cemetery) 393: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 11 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-55. Grave goods included: spatha. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 460 – 530 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Central East Prussia. No info from paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

I understand what Iain is saying when he says based on the dating and branching of the Z156 group - just based on that it looks like that group was successful in a previous culture to the Germanic/Jastorf culture of the late B.C. and just happened to hitch a ride (or be in the area) for later Germanic migrations.... in that they are clearly as Northern European as the Z319 men and are probably from Northern Germany and Scandinavia - or else they would be a lot more similar per their autosomal to the Southern Europeans or other more "Southern" samples tested along with the Baiuvarii... the autosomal doesn't match up - instead it supports a similar spread through Germanic Migration (North to South) like that for Z319... though ideally we need more DF96 (and where is DF98 - Saxon?) samples to compare like we now have for Z319...

Or that the Baiuvarii autosomal supports an origin in the North - but could have been there a long time from before the time Germanic culture started moving south - could have been Unetice and the descendant cultures residing in the area of Northern Germany...

In other words Z156 so far looks like it was spread through an earlier culture per the branching, but it's just as Northern European as the Z319 guys - so that means it came from the same or neighboring areas in the North...

Thoughts Mr. Wing?

Edit: more than one niederstotzingen man clusters with Friesland/Northern Netherlands... main percentage from nMonte being Friesland and 2nd Niedersachen or Northern Germany/Lower Saxony...

P.S. I was speaking to an Migration period archaeologist on Facebook and he said it's been assumed for sometime that some of the niederstotzingen men were "Longobards" based on the grave goods etc... so we are chatting about the Z319 link and some of the other burial sites that group is taking a look at here: https://genetichistory.ias.edu/content/project-workflow-and-procedures

P.P.S - even the U106 gladiators from York - 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 - have an autosomal connection to the Baltic - more so then the other gladiators even though they all generally cluster with the Northern English and local per isotopes - I did their maps per K36 and Tolan's map maker and they got their highest similarities with NW England/SW Scotland and the Netherlands - there is the Netherlands connection again ;-).