PDA

View Full Version : G-L497



Settler23
08-19-2018, 10:43 PM
Hi all, I am new here and new to this type of research, so forgive me any rookie mistakes. I had my father's y-DNA tested through FTDNA and it came back as G-L497. Is anyone else here from this subgroup, and if so, are any of your paternal lines from GB? Mine is from England and I'm curious to learn more about how the G haplogroup got to the UK. Thank you!

rivergirl
08-20-2018, 01:51 AM
Have you joined the G-L497 Project?

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/g-ydna/about

Settler23
08-20-2018, 02:11 AM
Yes, I'm there :)

lehmannt
01-08-2022, 08:35 PM
From Genos Historia in the Eurogenes blog comments (1/6/22, related to the Patterson paper post):
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/12/when-did-celtic-languages-arrive-in.html

"Cool update on Celtic Y DNA.

G2a L497 looks to be a Celtic marker, now.

13% of continental Celts have G2a L497.
3.6% of English Celts have G2a L497.

10 years ago, Maciamo at Eupedia identified L497 as the most common form of G2a in Europe. He tried to link it to IE expansions. But it looks to be from Celts.

The only examples of G2a-L497 before the iron age, come from two samples in Tryipllia and one in Eneolithic Hungary.

The fact all Celtic G2a is L497, means it is a founder lineage which expanded after the Neolithic. It isn't simply leftover from the Neolithic."

peloponnesian
01-08-2022, 11:08 PM
From Genos Historia in the Eurogenes blog comments (1/6/22, related to the Patterson paper post):
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/12/when-did-celtic-languages-arrive-in.html

"Cool update on Celtic Y DNA.

G2a L497 looks to be a Celtic marker, now.

13% of continental Celts have G2a L497.
3.6% of English Celts have G2a L497.

10 years ago, Maciamo at Eupedia identified L497 as the most common form of G2a in Europe. He tried to link it to IE expansions. But it looks to be from Celts.

The only examples of G2a-L497 before the iron age, come from two samples in Tryipllia and one in Eneolithic Hungary.

The fact all Celtic G2a is L497, means it is a founder lineage which expanded after the Neolithic. It isn't simply leftover from the Neolithic."

There's also a sample in this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293694/

Euganeo
01-08-2022, 11:31 PM
There's also a sample in this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293694/You're probably referring to table S11, since there's no G-L497 samples in S1. Those G-L497 samples in S11 are from Iron Age II though.

@lehmannt
During IA most of English must have been Celtic speaker. But if we consider only confirmed non-R-L21 samples, the frequency of G-L497 in UK becomes similar to the continental one.

That said, the supposed G-L497 Trypillian sample actually belonged to a female, so much so that this Y-DNA result was eliminated from later versions of that paper.
Plus, there are four confirmed G-L497 samples from before the Iron Age: the one from Eneolithic Hungary (Baden), mentioned above, the Bohemian TUC005, MIG012 and the "French" I10347 (Beaker).
The Hungarian and also the TUC005 were EEF-like, which suggests they predated the arrival of Steppe-rich people.

Also, I agree that the most important vector of G-L497 expansion to the North of Alps as a whole was likely linked to Celt's, but don't forget the clade was present already among early Etruscans.

CopperAxe
01-09-2022, 12:10 AM
I asked this question in another thread but I think I'm better off asking it here:


Just thinking out loud here, a bunch of questions for the people more knowledgeable in regards to Y-dna G polygeny:

During the iron age we see several British samples pop up with G2a2b2a. This is mirrored in Czechia, where iron age La Tene samples also show up with G2a2b2. How do these lineages relate to one another? Place of origin, tmrca, spreads etc. These are all G-L497 lineages no? It is interesting how there was a late neolithic G-L457 sample from Alpes-de-Haute-Provence.

Is there something akin to a bronze age relation with the G clades seen with the Etruscan samples, or that one potential rhaetian sample which also was under G-L497? Or did these have a very ancient separation?

You also have roman sample R108 which lookd a bit north shifted, and a bunch of Wielbark culture samples within that subclade as well but I have no clue if they have any close ties to the samples of this article in terms of Y-dna.

Any subclade afficionados who can help me out here? Much appreciated.

Euganeo
01-09-2022, 02:23 AM
Just thinking out loud here, a bunch of questions for the people more knowledgeable in regards to Y-dna G polygeny:

During the iron age we see several British samples pop up with G2a2b2a. This is mirrored in Czechia, where iron age La Tene samples also show up with G2a2b2. How do these lineages relate to one another? Place of origin, tmrca, spreads etc. These are all G-L497 lineages no? It is interesting how there was a late neolithic G-L457 sample from Alpes-de-Haute-Provence.19 G samples in this paper:
- one confirmed non-G-L497
- 16 confirmed for G-L497
- one undefined G-M201 (unknown status for G-L497)
- one undefined G-P303 (unknown status for G-L497)

These two undefined are from Marne. Pretty possible they're G-L497 as well. There's a third from Marne, confirmed for G-L497. In the paper mentioned by peloponnesian, there're three French G-L497 from Iron Age II: BES1249 (Bessan), ERS83-2 (Erstein) and WET429 (Wettolsheim).

Being ancient, they're not "high definition", but most of these G-L497 samples likely belong to the G-Z727 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/G;name=G-Z727)/G-Z1816 subclade.

Regarding the sample from Provence, it was one of the four I mentioned (from before the Iron Age). It must have been Beaker. While the Hungarian I2366 and the Bohemian TUC005, older, were EEF-like in Autosomal, this one from Provence was closer to modern Catalans and South French in the PCA. Plus, paper mentions Beakers vessels in that grave, which included two R1b individuals.
30 out of 31 Neolithic samples from Switzerland were confirmed as non-G-L497. And all those G-L140 from Neo France but one were confirmed as non-G-L497. Curiously, none of the 18 Swiss samples from between 4800-3600 ybp were G-L497 either, let alone the BA samples from Broion. Very different scenario from the one we see in this new paper. The clade must have started to expand in that zone around Hungary then.


Is there something akin to a bronze age relation with the G clades seen with the Etruscan samples, or that one potential rhaetian sample which also was under G-L497? Or did these have a very ancient separation?Unfortunately, no further categorization of Etruscan G-L497 samples. But it's interesting that over ~30% of the Etruscan samples from the Archaic period and older were G2a.
Tyrsenian languages could have been taken to Central Italy from North, as hypothesized by Grugni et al. (based on the appreciable frequency of G-L497 in Volterra).

Which Rhaetian sample do you refer to?


You also have roman sample R108 which lookd a bit north shifted, and a bunch of Wielbark culture samples within that subclade as well but I have no clue if they have any close ties to the samples of this article in terms of Y-dna.According to the following link, some of these Wielbark samples would belong to G-L497: https://slavicorigins.blogspot.com/2021/04/wielbark-culture-y-dna.html
However, the Wielbark sample I know that was really confirmed for G-L497 was the PCA0063, which was not even mentioned in the link above. Afaik, the other G samples mentioned in the link are too low definition. They could be G-L497, but it's actually hard to know for sure. In short, G-L497 was indeed confirmed in this culture, but these additional results (i.e., results apart PCA0063's) should be taken with a pinch of sault.
R108 was a bit North shifted, indeed. Would have been closer to modern Provencal and Friuliani.