PDA

View Full Version : DF27+ Z295*



bjp
08-27-2018, 05:17 PM
I have been following the DF27+ Z295+ CTS4065+ thread with interest, but I am curious if there is any interest on this board in those of us currently sitting on the Z295* paragroup. There are five of us on YFull (from Portugal, England, France, and two others), five on the Big Tree (two from England, one German, mine French, and one uncategorized, with apparently no shared SNPs between us), and two of us at Haplogroup-R.org

I am YF09041 at YFull, 26BS5 on the Big Tree, and WGC069899D, on the Haplogroup-R tree, all sourced from my whole genome sequence test. My YDNA line traces back to Mortagne-au-Perche, France, in the latter half of the 1500s. We seem to be relatively uncommon in test results, compared to the counts I see in the named haplogroups below Z295. I'm not sure how much credence to give YFull's estimate of a 4500ybp TMRCA for Z295, but it seems like we diverged quite some time ago. Perhaps mine is a particularly French branch, with France's limits on genetic testing reducing the available pool of men to be tested.

I guess I am wondering, how typical is it for a SNP as old as Z295 to have 5 men sitting at the paragroup level with 25-35 quality SNPs each, but none shared among eachother? Are we outliers, or just an artifact of all the people taking WGS tests now and getting coverage of SNPs outside of the BigY and combBED regions? I don't have any real insights to add, but hope to spark some discussion.

razyn
08-27-2018, 06:34 PM
I guess I am wondering, how typical is it for a SNP as old as Z295 to have 5 men sitting at the paragroup level with 25-35 quality SNPs each, but none shared among each other?

It just means that the Z295 group is large, old, and so widespread that some chunks of it haven't yet produced two guys with BigY results. Or other sequencing of comparable coverage, from FGC or 1000 Genomes or wherever. Your guess that the restrictive legal situation in France is probably a significant part of the problem is probably correct. But there are still many other gaps in the available data. The farther east one admits that the Z295 mutation may have occurred, the wider those gaps become.

The way Alex displays a paragroup on the Big Tree is a little misleading, visually. It looks as if the paragroup guys are somehow like each other. But they can be just as different from each other as a couple of guys in young subclades of Z216 and CTS4065. We just don't know, until they get some more tested levels (by matching someone else).

bjp
08-27-2018, 06:54 PM
Thank you razyn! I get what you're saying about the display of men in paragroups on the Big Tree and didn't mean to imply closeness between those of us in the set (which was why I mentioned no SNPs shared between us after checking through them manually). I guess I'll just stay in "wait and see" mode, awaiting more shared results. I think you've put into words the idea I had only half formed, that the age and size of the group imply a lot of additional structure to be identified in the future. I'm interested in identifying the structure carried by my surname, which testing paternally related men would help to accomplish, but I'm more interested in the overall shape of Z295's child haplogroups and what they show about population patterns so will just keep urging other Z295*'s to get going on NGS tests and sharing data.

Mythtown
09-16-2018, 07:17 PM
Hi, it's been quite a long time since I've posted here, but I see that after several years FTDNA has moved me from Z295* to a new subclade, R-SK1907. Glancing around databases, I don't see anybody else in this tiny little tribe. Dick, or anyone, I assume this means that whoever matches me isn't participating in an accessible database? What is the origin of the "SK" SNPs?

There's no telling, of course, but it seems possible R-SK1907 possibly might mark my terminal SNP, which is some sort of milestone after tests that began with an outrageously expensive one by Oxford Ancestors in something like 2004. It concluded something like "Probable Celtic," which is laughable in several ways now...

Add: I see SK is Mark Stoneking, Ph.D., Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany.

razyn
09-17-2018, 04:10 AM
Add: I see SK is Mark Stoneking, Ph.D., Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany.

We've touched on this via email, since I've known you for most of a decade. But I'll just add that there are folks on this planet who have very good labs, but sketchy contact with the rest of us. So their discoveries (that may well be matched by somebody else's) can fly beneath the radar for quite a while, until somebody notices. Another example (besides the SK series) that springs to mind is the PH series, discovered by Pille Hallast, but pretty much in isolation from anybody else's data. As we gradually get better acquainted, the tree grows new branches. Some of them are pretty old branches.

Mythtown
09-17-2018, 05:14 PM
We've touched on this via email, since I've known you for most of a decade. But I'll just add that there are folks on this planet who have very good labs, but sketchy contact with the rest of us. So their discoveries (that may well be matched by somebody else's) can fly beneath the radar for quite a while, until somebody notices. Another example (besides the SK series) that springs to mind is the PH series, discovered by Pille Hallast, but pretty much in isolation from anybody else's data. As we gradually get better acquainted, the tree grows new branches. Some of them are pretty old branches.

Thanks again, Dick, for all your insights over the years. We've been at it since the R1b1c days ... it's come a long way.

I've reached out to Mark, hoping to learn more, but haven't heard back. I see via Google that he has been quoted in some interesting genetics stories. He was an undergrad at the U of O, so perhaps he will throw some info to a fellow Northwesterner.

In all likelihood, whoever matches me to form this new little Z295 subclade will be an anonymous participant in a study. But with luck and more promotion of DNA testing, some interesting insights will eventually come to light. This is a game for the patient and long-lived.

bjp
09-19-2018, 08:07 PM
Hi, it's been quite a long time since I've posted here, but I see that after several years FTDNA has moved me from Z295* to a new subclade, R-SK1907. Glancing around databases, I don't see anybody else in this tiny little tribe. Dick, or anyone, I assume this means that whoever matches me isn't participating in an accessible database? What is the origin of the "SK" SNPs?

Hi, I haven't been here all that long, so please forgive me if I am pointing you towards your own kit, but I do see that one of the four other men, not me, in the R-Z295* paragroup on the Big Tree shows as positive for SK1907.

Mythtown
09-20-2018, 11:44 PM
Hi, I haven't been here all that long, so please forgive me if I am pointing you towards your own kit, but I do see that one of the four other men, not me, in the R-Z295* paragroup on the Big Tree shows as positive for SK1907.
Hi, thanks, that's probably me, kit 81973/Winters, though I don't immediately see on the Big Tree itself where they're showing SK1907, which is a mutation to A instead of the usual G at position 8571906. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. Although I've been doing this a long time, I am rusty on some of the details. Always assumed Z295* eventually would branch off into a smaller piece that included me, but had somewhat back-burnered the whole pursuit.

Mark Stoneking, unsurprisingly, did not respond to my entreaty for more details, by the way.

bjp
10-09-2018, 12:35 AM
Always assumed Z295* eventually would branch off into a smaller piece that included me, but had somewhat back-burnered the whole pursuit.

It looks like the Big Tree has just updated and placed you and two of the other Z295* paragroup kits into a new branch under 7331194-A-AT.

Mythtown
10-09-2018, 03:46 AM
Thanks. 26565I'm still on my own little twig for now.