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Raza94
08-28-2018, 06:17 AM
Hey guys I was wondering if there are any Seraiki people on the forum and what their results were. I really want to see if there is any difference between the general Punjabi population and Seraikis. I'm from Jhang and kind of on the border of Seraiki and Punjabi so I will post my results first:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.86
2 S-Indian 34.96
3 Caucasian 13.85
4 NE-Euro 4.37
5 SW-Asian 3.07
6 Siberian 1.99
7 NE-Asian 1.34
8 E-African 1.16

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 4.137795
2 punjabi_harappa @ 6.080265
3 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 6.583158
4 up-muslim_harappa @ 7.050639
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 7.075553
6 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 7.357648
7 kashmiri_harappa @ 7.368240
8 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 8.245827
9 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 8.384118
10 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.498767
11 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 8.607004
12 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.511598
13 punjabi-arain_xing @ 9.515594
14 sindhi_harappa @ 10.216156
15 sindhi_hgdp @ 11.575945
16 nepali_harappa @ 11.715089
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 11.918376
18 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 12.368030
19 up-brahmin_harappa @ 12.378859
20 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 12.625798

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% cochin-jew_behar +50% sindhi_harappa @ 3.806883


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-a_hapmap +25% iranian_harappa +25% sindhi_harappa @ 2.561098

1 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.252167
2 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.384621
3 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + iranian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.419906
4 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + iranian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.456153
5 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + iranian_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.495598
6 ap-reddy_harappa + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa @ 2.534221
7 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.543878
8 ap-reddy_harappa + bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_hgdp @ 2.549371
9 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + iranian_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.552862
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + sindhi_harappa @ 2.561098
11 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_hgdp + tamil_harappa @ 2.566713
12 bene-israel-jew_behar + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.566996
13 ap-reddy_harappa + bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.594677
14 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.612452
15 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 2.614837
16 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.624795
17 bene-israel-jew_behar + bhatia_harappa + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.628664
18 ap-reddy_harappa + bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa @ 2.632177
19 ap-reddy_harappa + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + iranian_harappa @ 2.645184
20 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_behar + velama_reich @ 2.654587

prashantvaidwan
08-28-2018, 04:12 PM
Hey guys I was wondering if there are any Seraiki people on the forum and what their results were. I really want to see if there is any difference between the general Punjabi population and Seraikis. I'm from Jhang and kind of on the border of Seraiki and Punjabi so I will post my results first:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.86
2 S-Indian 34.96
3 Caucasian 13.85
4 NE-Euro 4.37
5 SW-Asian 3.07
6 Siberian 1.99
7 NE-Asian 1.34
8 E-African 1.16

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 4.137795
2 punjabi_harappa @ 6.080265
3 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 6.583158
4 up-muslim_harappa @ 7.050639
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 7.075553
6 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 7.357648
7 kashmiri_harappa @ 7.368240
8 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 8.245827
9 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 8.384118
10 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.498767
11 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 8.607004
12 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.511598
13 punjabi-arain_xing @ 9.515594
14 sindhi_harappa @ 10.216156
15 sindhi_hgdp @ 11.575945
16 nepali_harappa @ 11.715089
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 11.918376
18 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 12.368030
19 up-brahmin_harappa @ 12.378859
20 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 12.625798

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% cochin-jew_behar +50% sindhi_harappa @ 3.806883


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% gujarati-a_hapmap +25% iranian_harappa +25% sindhi_harappa @ 2.561098

1 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.252167
2 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.384621
3 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + iranian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.419906
4 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + iranian_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.456153
5 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_1000genomes + iranian_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.495598
6 ap-reddy_harappa + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa @ 2.534221
7 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.543878
8 ap-reddy_harappa + bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_hgdp @ 2.549371
9 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + iranian_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.552862
10 gujarati-a_hapmap + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + sindhi_harappa @ 2.561098
11 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_hgdp + tamil_harappa @ 2.566713
12 bene-israel-jew_behar + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.566996
13 ap-reddy_harappa + bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + punjabi-arain_xing @ 2.594677
14 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa + velama_metspalu @ 2.612452
15 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 2.614837
16 bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.624795
17 bene-israel-jew_behar + bhatia_harappa + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.628664
18 ap-reddy_harappa + bene-israel-jew_behar + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa @ 2.632177
19 ap-reddy_harappa + bhatia_harappa + gujarati-patel_harappa + iranian_harappa @ 2.645184
20 bhatia_harappa + gujarati-a_hapmap + iranian_behar + velama_reich @ 2.654587
If you don't mind to tell, which Biradari you belong to?...muslim Rajput/awan?

Raza94
08-28-2018, 05:00 PM
If you don't mind to tell, which Biradari you belong to?...muslim Rajput/awan?

Hey sorry forgot to add that. We call ourselves “Syed” but I don’t believe that to be true,so I am also trying to figure that out. Any ideas from my results?

bol_nat
08-28-2018, 05:05 PM
Hey sorry forgot to add that. We call ourselves “Syed” but I don’t believe that to be true,so I am also trying to figure that out. Any ideas from my results?

I think your results show some west asian input somewhere, though Syed lineage is completely different ball game.

prashantvaidwan
08-28-2018, 05:06 PM
Hey sorry forgot to add that. We call ourselves “Syed” but I don’t believe that to be true,so I am also trying to figure that out. Any ideas from my results?

No worry, forum is north West dominated, there are few from your surroundings...soon you will get expert comments on your results

Raza94
08-28-2018, 05:17 PM
I think your results show some west asian input somewhere, though Syed lineage is completely different ball game.

Yea I believe the haplogroup is a clear give away that we’re not Syed and it seems like I have higher South Indian compared to other Punjabis

Raza94
08-28-2018, 05:18 PM
No worry, forum is north West dominated, there are few from your surroundings...soon you will get expert comments on your results

There are a lot of really smart people on here so I’m sure there will be experts on here soon!

bol_nat
08-28-2018, 07:22 PM
Yea I believe the haplogroup is a clear give away that we’re not Syed and it seems like I have higher South Indian compared to other Punjabis

Its about same, more or less similar to PJL A type. You should get Global25 coordinates.

Raza94
08-28-2018, 07:28 PM
Its about same, more or less similar to PJL A type. You should get Global25 coordinates.

How would I go about getting the coordinates? And is PJL A, Punjabi from Lahore? What is the difference between A,B,C,and D?

agent_lime
08-28-2018, 07:49 PM
My dad's parents spoke Seraiki. They were from DG Khan. Although might have been migrants to that area and originally from even more NW or W. Seeing your SW Asian there is a chance you have some ME ancestry.

Raza94
08-28-2018, 08:21 PM
My dad's parents spoke Seraiki. They were from DG Khan. Although might have been migrants to that area and originally from even more NW or W. Seeing your SW Asian there is a chance you have some ME ancestry.

Actually 23&me just did some updates and is now giving me 0.3% west asian and updated my haplogorup to R-Y6

MonkeyDLuffy
08-28-2018, 08:32 PM
Yea I believe the haplogroup is a clear give away that we’re not Syed and it seems like I have higher South Indian compared to other Punjabis

You're not alone there, we're in same SI club lol.

Raza94
08-28-2018, 08:48 PM
You're not alone there, we're in same SI club lol.

Ohh really? Do you mind posting your Harrapa results? And if I'm not mistaken you're Tarkhan,right?

MonkeyDLuffy
08-28-2018, 09:19 PM
Ohh really? Do you mind posting your Harrapa results? And if I'm not mistaken you're Tarkhan,right?

Yo I'm desi lumberjack:

1Baloch36.49
2S-Indian35.15
3NE-Euro12.79
4Caucasian10.81
5Siberian1.72
6SW-Asian0.82
7Beringian0.75
8American0.71
9NE-Asian0.62
10Papuan0.15

Raza94
08-28-2018, 09:43 PM
Yo I'm desi lumberjack:

1Baloch36.49
2S-Indian35.15
3NE-Euro12.79
4Caucasian10.81
5Siberian1.72
6SW-Asian0.82
7Beringian0.75
8American0.71
9NE-Asian0.62
10Papuan0.15

Baloch,SI and Caucasian seem similar but man I dont get how my NE Euro is so low? It doesn't make sense to me

khanabadoshi
08-28-2018, 10:50 PM
Bihrah assan Saraiki h'n.

All my family is mostly Saraiki-speaking. I post Saraiki-Syed/Durrani result from Multan before. Let me post their Harappa for you.



Population



S-Indian
30.22


Baloch
36.94


Caucasian
13.04


NE-Euro
11.37


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.15


NE-Asian
1.94


Papuan
0.12


American
0.51


Beringian
2.02


Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
3.27


San
0.23


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.17


W-African
-

Censored
08-28-2018, 10:53 PM
Could he be the result of a Chamar and some more northwesterly population, possibly Persian? Would explain high SI and low NE Euro.

Raza94
08-28-2018, 10:54 PM
Bihrah assan Saraiki h'n.

All my family is mostly Saraiki-speaking. I post Saraiki-Syed/Durrani result from Multan before. Let me post their Harappa for you.



Population



S-Indian
30.22


Baloch
36.94


Caucasian
13.04


NE-Euro
11.37


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.15


NE-Asian
1.94


Papuan
0.12


American
0.51


Beringian
2.02


Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
3.27


San
0.23


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.17


W-African
-



Hey awesome to see a Seraiki on here!

As you know I'm Syed as well but my results look nothing like that. I was thinking those results look similar to some Jatts, but there is high SW-Asian. What do you think?

Raza94
08-28-2018, 10:57 PM
Could he be the result of a Chamar and some more northwesterly population, possibly Persian? Would explain high SI and low NE Euro.

Yea that could be a possibility as well and might explain why they would have changed their name to Syed. Definitely going to do another test through a different company and compare

khanabadoshi
08-28-2018, 11:04 PM
Hey awesome to see a Seraiki on here!

As you know I'm Syed as well but my results look nothing like that. I was thinking those results look similar to some Jatts, but there is high SW-Asian. What do you think?

You are also from around Jhang area, correct? This area is considered very middle between Saraiki/Punjabi -- some people speak like standard Punjabi and some are speaking Jhangochi/Rachnavi which is closer to Saraiki. However, further south we still consider all of Jhang to be pretty much Punjabi because the tribes there are mostly exclusive to there or further east and north. From my prespective, I always assumed Jhang was like the buffer-zone between the Saraiki Belt/Waseb/Rohi etc and Punjabi-proper.

Also the guy's mother is Durrani or supposedly, so that can effect things. I can post my cousin in Bahwalpur but he is Leghari with a Punjabi grandmother, so it might not be the best comparison.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-28-2018, 11:40 PM
Baloch,SI and Caucasian seem similar but man I dont get how my NE Euro is so low? It doesn't make sense to me

It is more likely region variance, I'd expect people from my region and south to be more steppe shifted. Also for some reason my AASI is inflated on admixture calcs, on nmonte I came out less aasi than people who were a lil less SI than me, including punjabi Nai.

khanabadoshi
08-29-2018, 12:02 AM
It is more likely region variance, I'd expect people from my region and south to be more steppe shifted. Also for some reason my AASI is inflated on admixture calcs, on nmonte I came out less aasi than people who were a lil less SI than me, including punjabi Nai.

For me that's the defining difference between Northern Punjab and Southern. Southern are all less steppe and more Iran N. The only reasons some in my family have higher steppe is because the Kashmiri or Punjabi grandmother's some have. The Multani Syed guy probably has more Steppe because Durrani mother. But even then we are all generally lower steppe than most Northern results. The language thing conforms well to region, but it places like Jhang it's confusing. So I'm thinking that if I get the result of Syed from Bahawalpur or some Jatt or Rajput from my village we'll have a more proper comparison to make. In the absence of that, I think that maybe the average between agentlime's and Raza's and maybe my Bahawalpur cousin's results could be used as a safe bet regional Southern Punjab or Saraiki average.

I have always viewed Jhang as defcato Northern Punjab and at the very least an intermediate zone (no one views Jhang as entirely Saraiki), but in light of Raza's results, perhaps they are just more culturally like that but genetically more like the populations to the south and west of them. They occupy a region where the influence of Pashtuns, Baloch, and Punjabi meet. So while in a place like Mianwali, we can confidently say their results will be affected by Pashtuns, or in Rajanpur they will be affected by Baloch; in Jhang I assumed that is mostly a Northern Punjab influence, especially because culturally they have things that we associate with the north; f. ex. dance Luddi... but then again they have their own local dance called Dharees... so it's a unique area. But Raza's results make me re-examine how to view Jhang.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-29-2018, 12:07 AM
For me that's the defining difference between Northern Punjab and Southern. Southern are all less steppe and more Iran N. The only reasons some in my family have higher steppe is because the Kashmiri or Punjabi grandmother's some have. The Multani Syed guy probably has more Steppe because Durrani mother. But even then we are all generally lower steppe than most Northern results. The language thing conforms well to region, but it places like Jhang it's confusing. So I'm thinking that if I get the result of Syed from Bahawalpur or some Jatt or Rajput from my village we'll have a more proper comparison to make. In the absence of that, I think that maybe the average between agentlime's and Raza's and maybe my Bahawalpur cousin's results could be used as a safe bet regional Southern Punjab or Saraiki average.

Geographically makes sense because that's the core IVC region as well, although I must say Punjabi Nai is really high Iran N and low steppe, and she's from Ludhiana.

khanabadoshi
08-29-2018, 12:19 AM
Geographically makes sense because that's the core IVC region as well, although I must say Punjabi Nai is really high Iran N and low steppe, and she's from Ludhiana.

Maybe then the lower Steppe higher Iran N is applicable to the baser/older inhabitants of the region, which likely was concentrated more-so around Indus and thus it comes to be associated with Saraiki. However, obviously people moved away from the central towns along the Indus and spread to other parts of Punjab but the ones who were more endogamous retained that "older genetic signature" so to speak? So Punjabi Nai maybe an example of what people in Ludhiana used to be like? Like a fossil in sap ... cue Jurassic Park music!

Raza94
08-29-2018, 12:46 AM
For me that's the defining difference between Northern Punjab and Southern. Southern are all less steppe and more Iran N. The only reasons some in my family have higher steppe is because the Kashmiri or Punjabi grandmother's some have. The Multani Syed guy probably has more Steppe because Durrani mother. But even then we are all generally lower steppe than most Northern results. The language thing conforms well to region, but it places like Jhang it's confusing. So I'm thinking that if I get the result of Syed from Bahawalpur or some Jatt or Rajput from my village we'll have a more proper comparison to make. In the absence of that, I think that maybe the average between agentlime's and Raza's and maybe my Bahawalpur cousin's results could be used as a safe bet regional Southern Punjab or Saraiki average.

I have always viewed Jhang as defcato Northern Punjab and at the very least an intermediate zone (no one views Jhang as entirely Saraiki), but in light of Raza's results, perhaps they are just more culturally like that but genetically more like the populations to the south and west of them. They occupy a region where the influence of Pashtuns, Baloch, and Punjabi meet. So while in a place like Mianwali, we can confidently say their results will be affected by Pashtuns, or in Rajanpur they will be affected by Baloch; in Jhang I assumed that is mostly a Northern Punjab influence, especially because culturally they have things that we associate with the north; f. ex. dance Luddi... but then again they have their own local dance call Dharees... so it's a unique area. But Raza's results make me re-examine how to view Jhang.

Thanks man that is some great insight into all of this. My dad has always said that it is more Northern Punjab as well but with all the talk of a Seraiki province we are thinking it may fall into that. My mother is from Sialkot so I'm not sure how that falls into all this.

If we can get a jatt or rajput from the Saraiki area that would be very helpful to help uncover all this. I am working on getting my dads brother to get a test done so we can dig a little bit deeper into all this.

bol_nat
08-29-2018, 01:00 AM
How would I go about getting the coordinates? And is PJL A, Punjabi from Lahore? What is the difference between A,B,C,and D?

For Global25 you need to contact David, he charge $10 if I'm not wrong.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/08/basal-rich-k7-global-10-updates-10082017.html

bol_nat
08-29-2018, 01:09 AM
Thanks man that is some great insight into all of this. My dad has always said that it is more Northern Punjab as well but with all the talk of a Seraiki province we are thinking it may fall into that. My mother is from Sialkot so I'm not sure how that falls into all this.

If we can get a jatt or rajput from the Saraiki area that would be very helpful to help uncover all this. I am working on getting my dads brother to get a test done so we can dig a little bit deeper into all this.

Jhang will not be part of south punjab province. Because its in Faisalabad division. Only Multan, DG Khan and Bahawalpur divisions will be made part of south punjab province. Apparently now province will be made on administrative basis. They dropped the idea of seraiki province or based on language because punjabi and balochi speakers were not getting on board.

We hardly get any results from seraiki rural areas. Apart from one Khana's own relatives, but all his extended family is very mixed to begin with.

khanabadoshi
08-29-2018, 01:19 AM
Jhang will not be part of south punjab province. Because its in Faisalabad division. Only Multan, DG Khan and Bahawalpur divisions will be made part of south punjab province. Apparently now province will be made on administrative basis. They dropped the idea of seraiki province or based on language because punjabi and balochi speakers were not getting on board.

We hardly get any results from seraiki rural areas. Apart from one Khana's own relatives, but all his extended family is very mixed to begin with.

Are they seriously making the subah? Muzaffargarh, Layyah, and stuff are not included? Oh you wrote division. Ok I have a sense of what's included. I'll have to check out the news.

bol_nat
08-29-2018, 01:36 AM
Are they seriously making the subah? Muzaffargarh, Layyah, and stuff are not included? Oh you wrote division. Ok I have a sense of what's included. I'll have to check out the news.


DG Khan division include Muzaffargarh and Layyah. South punjab province was promise of PTI and they won.

Raza94
09-01-2018, 05:36 PM
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00085030.2016.1184851?needAccess=true&journalCode=tcsf20

Came across this article but I cant seem to find the full one anywhere. Anyone know where I can find it?

Also its interesting to see towards the end of the article in which he says " A phylogenetic tree shows that the Saraiki population living in Pakistan is genetically distinct from other geographically neighboring populations of the country"

Kurd
09-06-2018, 01:20 PM
If anything I expect Seraiki speakers to show more genetic diversity than say Baloch or Brahui. Generally, I would expect seraikis from the DG Khan to be more Baloch shifted on average, whereas ones from say Mianwali, such as the famous singer Attaulah Khan (a Niazi from the Isa Khel area. Khel is name given to a sub-tribe in Pashto ) more Pashtun shifted on average. Speaking of which Attaulah used to stay with a friend of mine from the Talagang area sometimes when he visited the NY area for concerts. A great singer, with many hit songs such as Nikki jai gal toon rusdae....

bol_nat
09-06-2018, 04:00 PM
I remember half arain/half baloch buzdar from Taunsa, very similar to HGDP Baloch. Also this "Malik" from south punjab, he doesn't know much about his family. Now after seeing few awan results, I doubt he's one.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 Caucasian 12.2
4 NE-Euro 7.01
5 SW-Asian 2.95
6 American 1.28
7 Mediterranean 0.9
8 W-African 0.29
9 Papuan 0.24
10 NE-Asian 0.18
11 E-African 0.01

His SW Asian is similar to Raza so there is possibility this component may not point towards west asian origin in south punjab.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-06-2018, 06:50 PM
I remember half arain/half baloch buzdar from Taunsa, very similar to HGDP Baloch. Also this "Malik" from south punjab, he doesn't know much about his family. Now after seeing few awan results, I doubt he's one.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 Caucasian 12.2
4 NE-Euro 7.01
5 SW-Asian 2.95
6 American 1.28
7 Mediterranean 0.9
8 W-African 0.29
9 Papuan 0.24
10 NE-Asian 0.18
11 E-African 0.01

His SW Asian is similar to Raza so there is possibility this component may not point towards west asian origin in south punjab.

Very similar to Punjabi Nai as well, except she is 33 SI, and this dude is 31. SW Asian and Baloch is same. And she does not have any foreign ancestry either.

AmjadPak
09-06-2018, 08:30 PM
I remember half arain/half baloch buzdar from Taunsa, very similar to HGDP Baloch. Also this "Malik" from south punjab, he doesn't know much about his family. Now after seeing few awan results, I doubt he's one.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 Caucasian 12.2
4 NE-Euro 7.01
5 SW-Asian 2.95
6 American 1.28
7 Mediterranean 0.9
8 W-African 0.29
9 Papuan 0.24
10 NE-Asian 0.18
11 E-African 0.01

His SW Asian is similar to Raza so there is possibility this component may not point towards west asian origin in south punjab.

There is a misconception spread by Awans that only they exclusively use "Malik" as their title, this is absolutely not true at all. We had Gujjar family in our street and they had Malik as their title. Similarly when I was doing my Masters in Punjab university Lahore I had a class fellow from neighboring Sharaqpur Sharif (Sheikhupura), his was land owning Arain family, hes used to bring "Guava" (Amrood) fruit for us, he said every indigenous Arain in Sharaqpur Sharif uses Malik as their title so we used to call him Waseem Malik , Waseem was his name.

Now coming to South Punjab, we are friends with a family from Muzaffargarh, they are Sandhela which is a cultivator caste (Jatt/Rajput confusion type) and Malik was their generic title, all males in their family have names starting with Malik and ending with Sandhela, like Malik Afzal Mehmood Sandhela, they often gift mangoes to us in summers. In fact Malik is used as generic title of honor by every clan that is not Pathan, Syed or Baloch in south Punjab. So you will find influential people in south Punjab with clan names like Malik Bhutta, Malik Bucha, Malik Khar, Malik Tiwana, Malik Noon etc. I think just like many influential people in central eastern parts of Punjab use "Chaudhry", the equivalent of that is Malik in south Punjab, any influential family (usually land owning) can use it.

Now some light on the word "Malik" itself, it is arabic word which means "ruler of a country/territory" or "lord of a country/territory". My father has spent 30 years in Saudi Arabia for work purposes and he told me that Kings of Saudi arabia use the title "Malik" for themselves and not "Shah" which is used by Pakistani media when they mention Saudi kings. So what is called "Shah Salman bin Abdul Aziz" in Pakistani media is called "Malik Salman bin Abdul Aziz" in Saudi media it self. The prevelance of "Malik" as a title for influential people in south punjab clearly points toward stronger arab influence in south punjab as opposed to central eastern punjab which has more indian influence and hence the preference for indian title "chaudhry". This makes sense since south punjab was historically part of greater Sindh in Ummayad and Fatmi eras.

Raza94
09-06-2018, 08:43 PM
I remember half arain/half baloch buzdar from Taunsa, very similar to HGDP Baloch. Also this "Malik" from south punjab, he doesn't know much about his family. Now after seeing few awan results, I doubt he's one.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 Caucasian 12.2
4 NE-Euro 7.01
5 SW-Asian 2.95
6 American 1.28
7 Mediterranean 0.9
8 W-African 0.29
9 Papuan 0.24
10 NE-Asian 0.18
11 E-African 0.01

His SW Asian is similar to Raza so there is possibility this component may not point towards west asian origin in south punjab.

Yea as far as I've known we have been in Jhang for at least 150-200 years don't think there is any West Asian/Middle Eastern recently. My SI is higher but my NE Euro is lower. Still totally confused about my results tbh but I guess that just means more digging to do.

AmjadPak
09-06-2018, 08:46 PM
Hey guys I was wondering if there are any Seraiki people on the forum and what their results were. I really want to see if there is any difference between the general Punjabi population and Seraikis. I'm from Jhang and kind of on the border of Seraiki and Punjabi so I will post my results first:



I had two class mates from Jhang during my Master studies at Punjab univeristy Lahore nearly couple of decades ago, one was Awan and other was Baloch caste. The Awan used to speak more Punjabi shifted language but Baloch one used to speak more Saraiki shifted language, both of them belonged to indigenous families of Jhang (no immigrant from india origin). I also had one class mate from Sargodha who used to speak in exactly same dialect and manner as two guys from jhang, I think people of Jhang, Chinyot, Pindi Bhattian and Sargodha speak pretty similar kind of Jangli language. Their closest linguistic kins are other Jangli speaking areas which lie further south of Ravi in Okara and Sahiwal. If I take my Lahori Punjabi dialect as the reference I would say their language was 60-70 % Saraiki and 30-40% Punjabi depending on the individuals. Also these Jhang origin class fellows of mine used to intentionally avoid using their thick Jhangvi accents and vocabulary that would be difficult for us Lahrore/Gujranwala origin guys to understand. But among themselves they often used very crude form of Jhangvi dialect which definitely sounds more closer to Saraiki in terms of phonetic sounds and preferred vocabulary. For example indigenous people of Jhang prefer to use Saraiki verb "Vanjhna" instead of Punjabi verb "Jana" (to go), and Saraiki verb "Ghinana" instead of "Laina" (to take). Also their preferred future tense ending is Saraiki based like they would say "Oh aa sin" instead of Punjabi "Oh aun gay". The only case where they prefer punjabi word is "nu'n" instead of Saraiki "ku'n", so they prefer like punjabis to use "Main nu'n" instead of Saraiki "Main ku'n". Also I have noticed that some of the famous Pakistani Saraiki singers originate from Jhang and Chinyot like Mansoor Malangi and Allah Ditta Loonay wala, both of these singers have predominantly used pure saraiki poetry for their songs instead of pure punjabi poetry, though many of their songs like other Saraiki singers of Pakistan tend to have lyrics that are a delicate mix of Saraiki and Punjabi languages/dialects in order to reach to larger audience of Pakistani Punjab.

Raza94
09-06-2018, 09:56 PM
I had two class mates from Jhang during my Master studies at Punjab univeristy Lahore nearly couple of decades ago, one was Awan and other was Baloch caste. The Awan used to speak more Punjabi shifted language but Baloch one used to speak more Saraiki shifted language, both of them belonged to indigenous families of Jhang (no immigrant from india origin). I also had one class mate from Sargodha who used to speak in exactly same dialect and manner as two guys from jhang, I think people of Jhang, Chinyot, Pindi Bhattian and Sargodha speak pretty similar kind of Jangli language. Their closest linguistic kins are other Jangli speaking areas which lie further south of Ravi in Okara and Sahiwal. If I take my Lahori Punjabi dialect as the reference I would say their language was 60-70 % Saraiki and 30-40% Punjabi depending on the individuals. Also these Jhang origin class fellows of mine used to intentionally avoid using their thick Jhanvi accents and vocabulary that would be difficult for us Lahrore/Gujranwala origin guys to understand. But among themselves they often used very crude form of Jhangvi dialect which definitely sounds more closer to Saraiki in terms of phonetic sounds and preferred vocabulary. For example indigenous people of Jhang prefer to use Saraiki verb "Vanjhna" instead of Punjabi verb "Jana" (to go), and Saraiki verb "Ghinana" instead of "Laina" (to take). Also their preferred future tense ending is Saraiki based like they would say "Oh aa sin" for Punjabi "Oh aun gay". The only case where they prefer punjabi word is "nu'n" instead of Saraiki "ku'n", so they prefer like punjabis to use "Main nu'n" instead of Saraiki "Main ku'n". Also I have noticed that some of the famous Pakistani Saraiki singers originate from Jhang and Chinyot like Mansoor Malangi and Allah Ditta Loonay wala, both of these singers have predominantly used pure saraiki poetry for their songs instead of pure punjabi poetry, though many of their songs like other Saraiki singers of Pakistan tend to have lyrics that are a delicate mix of Saraiki and Punjabi languages/dialects in order to reach to larger audience of Pakistani Punjab.

Thank you man this was very insightful and helpful. My dad and his brothers very rarely speak Saraiki or Jangli dialect to each other. I'm guessing this is because they had moved to Lahore when they were younger. Now I am just trying to see if there is any difference genetically between Central Punjabis and Saraikis.

Raza94
09-06-2018, 10:29 PM
I had two class mates from Jhang during my Master studies at Punjab univeristy Lahore nearly couple of decades ago, one was Awan and other was Baloch caste. The Awan used to speak more Punjabi shifted language but Baloch one used to speak more Saraiki shifted language, both of them belonged to indigenous families of Jhang (no immigrant from india origin). I also had one class mate from Sargodha who used to speak in exactly same dialect and manner as two guys from jhang, I think people of Jhang, Chinyot, Pindi Bhattian and Sargodha speak pretty similar kind of Jangli language. Their closest linguistic kins are other Jangli speaking areas which lie further south of Ravi in Okara and Sahiwal. If I take my Lahori Punjabi dialect as the reference I would say their language was 60-70 % Saraiki and 30-40% Punjabi depending on the individuals. Also these Jhang origin class fellows of mine used to intentionally avoid using their thick Jhangvi accents and vocabulary that would be difficult for us Lahrore/Gujranwala origin guys to understand. But among themselves they often used very crude form of Jhangvi dialect which definitely sounds more closer to Saraiki in terms of phonetic sounds and preferred vocabulary. For example indigenous people of Jhang prefer to use Saraiki verb "Vanjhna" instead of Punjabi verb "Jana" (to go), and Saraiki verb "Ghinana" instead of "Laina" (to take). Also their preferred future tense ending is Saraiki based like they would say "Oh aa sin" instead of Punjabi "Oh aun gay". The only case where they prefer punjabi word is "nu'n" instead of Saraiki "ku'n", so they prefer like punjabis to use "Main nu'n" instead of Saraiki "Main ku'n". Also I have noticed that some of the famous Pakistani Saraiki singers originate from Jhang and Chinyot like Mansoor Malangi and Allah Ditta Loonay wala, both of these singers have predominantly used pure saraiki poetry for their songs instead of pure punjabi poetry, though many of their songs like other Saraiki singers of Pakistan tend to have lyrics that are a delicate mix of Saraiki and Punjabi languages/dialects in order to reach to larger audience of Pakistani Punjab.

Sorry forgot to add this before but its funny you say Pindi Bhattian because apparently that is where we were before Jhang

AmjadPak
09-06-2018, 11:13 PM
Sorry forgot to add this before but its funny you say Pindi Bhattian because apparently that is where we were before Jhang

Yes Pindi Bhattian is also part of same Jangli belt but Pindi Bhattian is part of Hafizabad district which it self was part of Gujranwala district until 90s. So has much more Punjabi influence because it was part of Gujranwala district for a long long time and you had to go to Gujranwala city for most of official works and over time that resulted in high influence of Punjabi language on Pindi Bhattian compared to Jhang. But still an average joe from rural Pindi Bhittian linguisticall and culturally shares much more with an average joe from Jhang. The princial Jangli tribes of these areas are Sial, Kharal, Chaddar, Bhatti, Kambo and Wattu, though Wattu main concentration is in Okara but they are essentially the same people. They have same kind of folks song and dances particularly their jhoomar dances. This is culturally rich area, a lot of interesting dances like Luddi, Sammi, Jhoomar, Dharees. They share Luddi and Sammi dances with people of Pothohar but I think Janglis of Rachna Doab perform it far better than Pothohairs, their local Dhol beats are also some of the best dhol beats in whole of Pakistani Punjab.

You can enjoy their dances in following videos,

Dharees dance from Jhang,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpfFSMuM4co

Sammi dance from Pindi Bhattian,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NYjomSlGJQ&t=146s

Another Dharees and Luddi mixed dance with folk singing performed both by adults and children from Jhang,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niMq3GixCn4

Another mix of Jhoomar, Sammi and Luddi dance performed in Pindi Bhattian,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXSNNqB482Q


You can clearly see that Jhang and Pindhi Bhattian have same kind of dhol beats and dances and singhing style though Pindi Bhattian has a lot of punjabi influence on its language due to its proximity and shared history with Gujranwala district in recent times.

AmjadPak
09-06-2018, 11:56 PM
And as far as their genetics is concerned I am sure the indigenous unmixed Jangli tribes from Jhang, Pindhi Bhattian and Chinyot will make their own genetic cluster if enough samples are collected from these three areas from people belonging to Sial, Kharal, Chadhar, Bhatti, Kambo and Wattu unless they have mixed with non-Jangli settlers settled there by the British. I don't know if people already know that there was no city with name of Layalpur/Faisalabad before the British colonisation, it was essentially the territory of the aforementioned Jangli tribes of Jhang and Pindi Bhattian. But now Faisalabad is the second biggest city and population cluster of Pakistani Punjab mostly inhabited by settlers and immigrants from central and eastern parts of Punjab. That is how British occupiers managed to completely change the demographics of the region in less than 150 years.

bol_nat
09-07-2018, 01:13 AM
I had two class mates from Jhang during my Master studies at Punjab univeristy Lahore nearly couple of decades ago, one was Awan and other was Baloch caste. The Awan used to speak more Punjabi shifted language but Baloch one used to speak more Saraiki shifted language, both of them belonged to indigenous families of Jhang (no immigrant from india origin). I also had one class mate from Sargodha who used to speak in exactly same dialect and manner as two guys from jhang, I think people of Jhang, Chinyot, Pindi Bhattian and Sargodha speak pretty similar kind of Jangli language. Their closest linguistic kins are other Jangli speaking areas which lie further south of Ravi in Okara and Sahiwal. If I take my Lahori Punjabi dialect as the reference I would say their language was 60-70 % Saraiki and 30-40% Punjabi depending on the individuals. Also these Jhang origin class fellows of mine used to intentionally avoid using their thick Jhangvi accents and vocabulary that would be difficult for us Lahrore/Gujranwala origin guys to understand. But among themselves they often used very crude form of Jhangvi dialect which definitely sounds more closer to Saraiki in terms of phonetic sounds and preferred vocabulary. For example indigenous people of Jhang prefer to use Saraiki verb "Vanjhna" instead of Punjabi verb "Jana" (to go), and Saraiki verb "Ghinana" instead of "Laina" (to take). Also their preferred future tense ending is Saraiki based like they would say "Oh aa sin" instead of Punjabi "Oh aun gay". The only case where they prefer punjabi word is "nu'n" instead of Saraiki "ku'n", so they prefer like punjabis to use "Main nu'n" instead of Saraiki "Main ku'n". Also I have noticed that some of the famous Pakistani Saraiki singers originate from Jhang and Chinyot like Mansoor Malangi and Allah Ditta Loonay wala, both of these singers have predominantly used pure saraiki poetry for their songs instead of pure punjabi poetry, though many of their songs like other Saraiki singers of Pakistan tend to have lyrics that are a delicate mix of Saraiki and Punjabi languages/dialects in order to reach to larger audience of Pakistani Punjab.

Singer Nadeem Abbas Lunewala songs also tend to be mix of seraiki/punjabi. He was born in Lahore or Islamabad but likely from around Jhang originally.

bol_nat
09-07-2018, 01:40 AM
There is a misconception spread by Awans that only they exclusively use "Malik" as their title, this is absolutely not true at all. We had Gujjar family in our street and they had Malik as their title. Similarly when I was doing my Masters in Punjab university Lahore I had a class fellow from neighboring Sharaqpur Sharif (Sheikhupura), his was land owning Arain family, hes used to bring "Guava" (Amrood) fruit for us, he said every indigenous Arain in Sharaqpur Sharif uses Malik as their title so we used to call him Waseem Malik , Waseem was his name.

Now coming to South Punjab, we are friends with a family from Muzaffargarh, they are Sandhela which is a cultivator caste (Jatt/Rajput confusion type) and Malik was their generic title, all males in their family have names starting with Malik and ending with Sandhela, like Malik Afzal Mehmood Sandhela, they often gift mangoes to us in summers. In fact Malik is used as generic title of honor by every clan that is not Pathan, Syed or Baloch in south Punjab. So you will find influential people in south Punjab with clan names like Malik Bhutta, Malik Bucha, Malik Khar, Malik Tiwana, Malik Noon etc. I think just like many influential people in central eastern parts of Punjab use "Chaudhry", the equivalent of that is Malik in south Punjab, any influential family (usually land owning) can use it.

Now some light on the word "Malik" itself, it is arabic word which means "ruler of a country/territory" or "lord of a country/territory". My father has spent 30 years in Saudi Arabia for work purposes and he told me that Kings of Saudi arabia use the title "Malik" for themselves and not "Shah" which is used by Pakistani media when they mention Saudi kings. So what is called "Shah Salman bin Abdul Aziz" in Pakistani media is called "Malik Salman bin Abdul Aziz" in Saudi media it self. The prevelance of "Malik" as a title for influential people in south punjab clearly points toward stronger arab influence in south punjab as opposed to central eastern punjab which has more indian influence and hence the preference for indian title "chaudhry". This makes sense since south punjab was historically part of greater Sindh in Ummayad and Fatmi eras.

He could be one of those seraiki rajput/jatt from south punjab. Now I don't remember from which district he was from.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-07-2018, 02:22 AM
Just quickly wanted to mention since we're already on Malik sur ame, it is used by some Hindu Jats in haryana as well.

Also I highly doubt populations like Khatris or Brahmins in lehnda Punjab were brought by British. Especially after seeing their genetic scores which is identical to the local population of the region they lived in.

Edit: will cause unnecessary flamewar

bol_nat
09-07-2018, 02:32 AM
Yes Pindi Bhattian is also part of same Jangli belt but Pindi Bhattian is part of Hafizabad district which it self was part of Gujranwala district until 90s. So has much more Punjabi influence because it was part of Gujranwala district for a long long time and you had to go to Gujranwala city for most of official works and over time that resulted in high influence of Punjabi language on Pindi Bhattian compared to Jhang. But still an average joe from rural Pindi Bhittian linguisticall and culturally shares much more with an average joe from Jhang. The princial Jangli tribes of these areas are Sial, Kharal, Chaddar, Bhatti, Kambo and Wattu, though Wattu main concentration is in Okara but they are essentially the same people. They have same kind of folks song and dances particularly their jhoomar dances. This is culturally rich area, a lot of interesting dances like Luddi, Sammi, Jhoomar, Dharees. They share Luddi and Sammi dances with people of Pothohar but I think Janglis of Rachna Doab perform it far better than Pothohairs, their local Dhol beats are also some of the best dhol beats in whole of Pakistani Punjab. s.

To me it seem like Gujrat, Gujranwala, Sialkot and few other districts language is more or less similar to lahori with some differences. In many other districts its mixed bag even though they are considered part of "central punjab". Like I've met so many people from Mandi Bahaudin which is just south of Gujrat but their language was more similar to potohari.

bol_nat
09-07-2018, 02:53 AM
Just quickly wanted to mention since we're already on Malik sur ame, it is used by some Hindu Jats in haryana as well.

Also I highly doubt populations like Khatris or Brahmins in lehnda Punjab were brought by British. Especially after seeing their genetic scores which is identical to the local population of the region they lived in.

Edit: will cause unnecessary flamewar

Pakistan punjab is huge and language spoken isn't same across province. Historically Khatris were mostly found in Sialkot, Gujranwala and Lahore region so they are native of these areas but not punjab as a whole. Like khatris in Faisalabad or even Peshawar were migrants from above mentioned districts. Aroras were found in Jhang, seraiki areas though. Its hard to place khatris, aroras, lohanas, memons as they all so similar genetically despite large distance between them. Brahmins will likely have more regional variance like user Rahul who's family was from Rawalpindi.

agent_lime
09-07-2018, 09:58 AM
Pakistan punjab is huge and language spoken isn't same across province. Historically Khatris were mostly found in Sialkot, Gujranwala and Lahore region so they are native of these areas but not punjab as a whole. Like khatris in Faisalabad or even Peshawar were migrants from above mentioned districts. Aroras were found in Jhang, seraiki areas though. Its hard to place khatris, aroras, lohanas, memons as they all so similar genetically despite large distance between them. Brahmins will likely have more regional variance like user Rahul who's family was from Rawalpindi.

Not sure, maybe within the last few hundred years. I think they originated as a single population more NW(near Eastern Hindu Kush maybe). Then they mixed with the locals of adjacent regions after the fall of IV civilization. Subsequently probably lost power with Islam and previous to that with Brahmins overtaking them on the caste system. Then splintered. What amazes me that these groups are endogamous, they have maintained a similar genetic imprint all the way from Gujarat to Multan to Peshawar to as far as western UP. This area is as big as mid sized European countries.

Do Khatris et all match residents of Gunjanwala or Lahore? Is there a single genetic imprint of the natives of these regions? Didn't Khatris model as 90% Kalash + 10% something like Paniya? Poi? Khanna?

bol_nat
09-07-2018, 04:04 PM
Not sure, maybe within the last few hundred years. I think they originated as a single population more NW(near Eastern Hindu Kush maybe). Then they mixed with the locals of adjacent regions after the fall of IV civilization. Subsequently probably lost power with Islam and previous to that with Brahmins overtaking them on the caste system. Then splintered. What amazes me that these groups are endogamous, they have maintained a similar genetic imprint all the way from Gujarat to Multan to Peshawar to as far as western UP. This area is as big as mid sized European countries.

Do Khatris et all match residents of Gunjanwala or Lahore? Is there a single genetic imprint of the natives of these regions? Didn't Khatris model as 90% Kalash + 10% something like Paniya? Poi? Khanna?

They didn't originate in eastern hindukush which was likely dardic area like Chitral before pashtunization 800-900 years ago if I'm not wrong. Khatris, aroras, lohanas etc ethnogenesis happened east of indus in plains of punjab/sindh as their population in pahari/mountainous area was little to non existent. Lohanas were documented in Sindh 7th century so there is no question this group being in sindh, punjab for very long time.

After that initial formation of caste they spread all over, probably being traders they never really took roots in any particular region and married with in their own community for the must part.

Rahuls77
09-07-2018, 08:33 PM
Pakistan punjab is huge and language spoken isn't same across province. Historically Khatris were mostly found in Sialkot, Gujranwala and Lahore region so they are native of these areas but not punjab as a whole. Like khatris in Faisalabad or even Peshawar were migrants from above mentioned districts. Aroras were found in Jhang, seraiki areas though. Its hard to place khatris, aroras, lohanas, memons as they all so similar genetically despite large distance between them. Brahmins will likely have more regional variance like user Rahul who's family was from Rawalpindi.

My family and related clans are quite an anomaly for the Brahmin Caste, as it exists in Punjab or the rest of the Hindi heartland, in their customs and even overall religiosity. And then it is very much probable that before the early conversions to Islam in the region caste identities were quite fluid in this region, and something changed and caste identities 'became' and solidified about 1200-800 ybp. There was no visible Hinduism in the region, as it came to exist subsequently, with its caste structure, the modern kind, especially.

Rahuls77
09-07-2018, 08:40 PM
Why I think that my family and its related clans have had a long presence is for my own autosomal proximity to the region's populations, and some traditions about our origins,and surnames such as Bamniyal, Ranial, Harnal, Haryal, Chaswal etc. By the way, I have found another sample, of one from a clan related to mine, from this region, around Pindi and Kahuta. His admixture percentages are quite similar to mine actually. The profile was uploaded to Gedmatch by his friend.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.05
2 S-Indian 31.57
3 Caucasian 12.83
4 NE-Euro 11.57
5 Siberian 1.91
6 Beringian 1.71
7 American 1.37
8 Mediterranean 1.12
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 SW-Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.48
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 3.99
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 4.48
4 kashmiri (harappa) 4.51
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.63
6 punjabi (harappa) 4.7
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.33
8 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.69
9 up-muslim (harappa) 6.26
10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.86

I tend to think that this Kashmiri Pandit showing on top is a bit of a red herring, some discrepancy that exists in the Harappa model itself.

pegasus
09-07-2018, 08:55 PM
Why I think that my family and its related clans have had a long presence is for my own autosomal proximity to the region's populations, and some traditions about our origins,and surnames such as Bamniyal, Ranial, Harnal, Haryal, Chaswal etc. By the way, I have found another sample, of one from a clan related to mine, from this region, around Pindi and Kahuta. His admixture percentages are quite similar to mine actually. The profile was uploaded to Gedmatch by his friend.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.05
2 S-Indian 31.57
3 Caucasian 12.83
4 NE-Euro 11.57
5 Siberian 1.91
6 Beringian 1.71
7 American 1.37
8 Mediterranean 1.12
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 SW-Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.48
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 3.99
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 4.48
4 kashmiri (harappa) 4.51
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.63
6 punjabi (harappa) 4.7
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.33
8 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.69
9 up-muslim (harappa) 6.26
10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.86

I tend to think that this Kashmiri Pandit showing on top is a bit of a red herring, some discrepancy that exists in the Harappa model itself.

Harappa oracles are pretty scary accurate from my observation, your results fall very much in the cline with them though they are a bit more Zagrosian shifted and have some minor Tibeto Burman admixture.

pegasus
09-07-2018, 09:00 PM
Very similar to Punjabi Nai as well, except she is 33 SI, and this dude is 31. SW Asian and Baloch is same. And she does not have any foreign ancestry either.

Can you post her harappa results.

AmjadPak
09-07-2018, 09:54 PM
They didn't originate in eastern hindukush which was likely dardic area like Chitral before pashtunization 800-900 years ago if I'm not wrong. Khatris, aroras, lohanas etc ethnogenesis happened east of indus in plains of punjab/sindh as their population in pahari/mountainous area was little to non existent. Lohanas were documented in Sindh 7th century so there is no question this group being in sindh, punjab for very long time.

After that initial formation of caste they spread all over, probably being traders they never really took roots in any particular region and married with in their own community for the must part.

I think culturally speaking Khatris have always been an urban type of people, there is a clear divide in culture, mindset and manners of historically urban and rural populations of our part of Punjab. Gujranwala and Sialkot region has essentially always been a rural place inhabited by non-urban agricultural and farmer groups like jatts, gujjars, arain and their serving artisan class of tarkhan,, kumhar, teli etc and an immigrant group called Kashmiri Butt. The only urban centres within this region were Gujranwala and Sialkot city areas which were pretty small towns until just 50 years ago. The only nearby big urban centre was Lahore. There were Khatris and Arora shop keepers and money lenders in most of the villages of Gujranwala and Sialkot regions but they were not culturally a dominating people in any of those villages. Even today I clearly see stark difference in the language and manners of Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) and the remaining paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot villages. Though my family now lives in Lahore but originally we are from a village of Gujranwala and I always see the marked difference between the mindset and manners of urban old inhabitants of Lahore who were mostly of Khatri origin than the newly arrived paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot regions that is why I feel Khatris should be seen as a separate urban isolates within the greater paindu communities of central Punjab, I doubt they share common origin with paindus castes of Pakistani punjab, the difference in manners is just too stark. I personally feel that Khatris have originated north of Chenab and possibly even north of Jehlum river, as a cultural/ethnic group they just don't fit among the crude paindu type ethnic groups that are found south of chenab river in Rachna doab.

A pure paindu unsophisticated zinda dil blunt Gujranwala/Sialkot villager from old times sound something like this old guy in the video who is Malhi Jatt from a village near Pasroor, you will never ever find someone like him among Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) but you will easily find such characters among Jatts, Gujjars, Arain, Kashmiri Butt, Tarkhan (Tarkhans use Mughal, Mirza family names in these areas) etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscv1rnbaww&t=2584s

And this a Kashmiri Butt villager from Chawinda Sialkot area, he also has quite similar blunt personality like the Malhi Jatt guy in the above video which is hall mark of Gujranwala/Sialkot rural areas,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EH2NZm9pBU&t=1464s

poi
09-07-2018, 10:56 PM
I think culturally speaking Khatris have always been an urban type of people, there is a clear divide in culture, mindset and manners of historically urban and rural populations of our part of Punjab. Gujranwala and Sialkot region has essentially always been a rural place inhabited by non-urban agricultural and farmer groups like jatts, gujjars, arain and their serving artisan class of tarkhan,, kumhar, teli etc and an immigrant group called Kashmiri Butt. The only urban centres within this region were Gujranwala and Sialkot city areas which were pretty small towns until just 50 years ago. The only nearby big urban centre was Lahore. There were Khatris and Arora shop keepers and money lenders in most of the villages of Gujranwala and Sialkot regions but they were not culturally a dominating people in any of those villages. Even today I clearly see stark difference in the language and manners of Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) and the remaining paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot villages. Though my family now lives in Lahore but originally we are from a village of Gujranwala and I always see the marked difference between the mindset and manners of urban old inhabitants of Lahore who were mostly of Khatri origin than the newly arrived paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot regions that is why I feel Khatris should be seen as a separate urban isolates within the greater paindu communities of central Punjab, I doubt they share common origin with paindus castes of Pakistani punjab, the difference in manners is just too stark. I personally feel that Khatris have originated north of Chenab and possibly even north of Jehlum river, as a cultural/ethnic group they just don't fit among the crude paindu type ethnic groups that are found south of chenab river in Rachna doab.

A pure paindu unsophisticated zinda dil blunt Gujranwala/Sialkot villager from old times sound something like this old guy in the video who is Malhi Jatt from a village near Pasroor, you will never ever find someone like him among Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) but you will easily find such characters among Jatts, Gujjars, Arain, Kashmiri Butt, Tarkhan etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscv1rnbaww&t=2584s

And this a Kashmiri Butt villager from Chawinda Sialkot area, he also has quite similar blunt personality like the Malhi Jatt guy in the above video which is hall mark of Gujranwala/Sialkot rural areas,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EH2NZm9pBU&t=1464s

Very interesting. May be I do not know much context in this particular case, but speaking from my own experiences, even 1 generation of urban living can bring out a completely different set of mannerisms and 2nd generation urbanized people may feel like they have nothing in common with the rural and vice versa.

pegasus
09-07-2018, 11:45 PM
They didn't originate in eastern hindukush which was likely dardic area like Chitral before pashtunization 800-900 years ago if I'm not wrong. Khatris, aroras, lohanas etc ethnogenesis happened east of indus in plains of punjab/sindh as their population in pahari/mountainous area was little to non existent. Lohanas were documented in Sindh 7th century so there is no question this group being in sindh, punjab for very long time.

After that initial formation of caste they spread all over, probably being traders they never really took roots in any particular region and married with in their own community for the must part.

I don't know about Aroras or Lohanas since their samples are not on Nmonte but those Khatris on Nmonte are definitely originating from areas of NW of the Indus, they are one of the few groups which model very well with just early Swat groups like Loebanr, thats not the case with most NW SA groups, they are either need Saidu Sharif or Udegram or combination of that. Sindhis I noticed were much less late BMAC influenced , Khatris scored like 38-45% of this Gonur/Dzharkhutan ancestry, the most I have seen for any large Indo Aryan ethnic group. They are similar to those Kohistani and that Ghawarbati group over all. Cultural mores can be adopted and changed with the time. Just as you have some Kashmiri or Pashtuns who assimilated into mainstream Punjabi society , its likely the case with the Khatri, but it seems to have occurred far earlier in their case

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 01:32 AM
I don't know about Aroras or Lohanas since their samples are not on Nmonte but those Khatris on Nmonte are definitely originating from areas of NW of the Indus, they are one of the few groups which model very well with just early Swat groups like Loebanr, thats not the case with most NW SA groups, they are either need Saidu Sharif or Udegram or combination of that. Sindhis I noticed were much less late BMAC influenced , Khatris scored like 38-45% of this Gonur/Dzharkhutan ancestry, the most I have seen for any large Indo Aryan ethnic group. They are similar to those Kohistani and that Ghawarbati group over all. Cultural mores can be adopted and changed with the time. Just as you have some Kashmiri or Pashtuns who assimilated into mainstream Punjabi society , its likely the case with the Khatri, but it seems to have occurred far earlier in their case

Aroras, lohanas and khatris are basically same people.

bored
09-08-2018, 03:14 AM
My family and related clans are quite an anomaly for the Brahmin Caste, as it exists in Punjab or the rest of the Hindi heartland, in their customs and even overall religiosity. And then it is very much probable that before the early conversions to Islam in the region caste identities were quite fluid in this region, and something changed and caste identities 'became' and solidified about 1200-800 ybp. There was no visible Hinduism in the region, as it came to exist subsequently, with its caste structure, the modern kind, especially.

You have interesting results. You should get your G25 coordinates from Davidski. It costs $12. I’m really curious to see your nmonte results

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 03:36 AM
Why I think that my family and its related clans have had a long presence is for my own autosomal proximity to the region's populations, and some traditions about our origins,and surnames such as Bamniyal, Ranial, Harnal, Haryal, Chaswal etc. By the way, I have found another sample, of one from a clan related to mine, from this region, around Pindi and Kahuta. His admixture percentages are quite similar to mine actually. The profile was uploaded to Gedmatch by his friend.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.05
2 S-Indian 31.57
3 Caucasian 12.83
4 NE-Euro 11.57
5 Siberian 1.91
6 Beringian 1.71
7 American 1.37
8 Mediterranean 1.12
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 SW-Asian 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.48
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 3.99
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 4.48
4 kashmiri (harappa) 4.51
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.63
6 punjabi (harappa) 4.7
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.33
8 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.69
9 up-muslim (harappa) 6.26
10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.86

I tend to think that this Kashmiri Pandit showing on top is a bit of a red herring, some discrepancy that exists in the Harappa model itself.

This sample belong to brahmin from Kahuta?

MonkeyDLuffy
09-08-2018, 04:19 AM
Can you post her harappa results.

There you go:

Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.7
2 S-Indian 33.46
3 Caucasian 8.53
4 NE-Euro 5.15
5 SW-Asian 2.35
6 Siberian 1.79
7 NE-Asian 1.62
8 Mediterranean 1.29
9 American 1.1

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 04:21 AM
I think culturally speaking Khatris have always been an urban type of people, there is a clear divide in culture, mindset and manners of historically urban and rural populations of our part of Punjab. Gujranwala and Sialkot region has essentially always been a rural place inhabited by non-urban agricultural and farmer groups like jatts, gujjars, arain and their serving artisan class of tarkhan,, kumhar, teli etc and an immigrant group called Kashmiri Butt. The only urban centres within this region were Gujranwala and Sialkot city areas which were pretty small towns until just 50 years ago. The only nearby big urban centre was Lahore. There were Khatris and Arora shop keepers and money lenders in most of the villages of Gujranwala and Sialkot regions but they were not culturally a dominating people in any of those villages. Even today I clearly see stark difference in the language and manners of Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) and the remaining paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot villages. Though my family now lives in Lahore but originally we are from a village of Gujranwala and I always see the marked difference between the mindset and manners of urban old inhabitants of Lahore who were mostly of Khatri origin than the newly arrived paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot regions that is why I feel Khatris should be seen as a separate urban isolates within the greater paindu communities of central Punjab, I doubt they share common origin with paindus castes of Pakistani punjab, the difference in manners is just too stark. I personally feel that Khatris have originated north of Chenab and possibly even north of Jehlum river, as a cultural/ethnic group they just don't fit among the crude paindu type ethnic groups that are found south of chenab river in Rachna doab.

A pure paindu unsophisticated zinda dil blunt Gujranwala/Sialkot villager from old times sound something like this old guy in the video who is Malhi Jatt from a village near Pasroor, you will never ever find someone like him among Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) but you will easily find such characters among Jatts, Gujjars, Arain, Kashmiri Butt, Tarkhan (Tarkhans use Mughal, Mirza family names in these areas) etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscv1rnbaww&t=2584s

And this a Kashmiri Butt villager from Chawinda Sialkot area, he also has quite similar blunt personality like the Malhi Jatt guy in the above video which is hall mark of Gujranwala/Sialkot rural areas,

Yes good point, khatris have been urban for long time. They could read and write and used to do administration work for Mughals. And sindhu hindus/lohanas in Sindh as well are known for same thing. All of them have same origin despite large distance between them and different language they speak.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-08-2018, 04:27 AM
I think culturally speaking Khatris have always been an urban type of people, there is a clear divide in culture, mindset and manners of historically urban and rural populations of our part of Punjab. Gujranwala and Sialkot region has essentially always been a rural place inhabited by non-urban agricultural and farmer groups like jatts, gujjars, arain and their serving artisan class of tarkhan,, kumhar, teli etc and an immigrant group called Kashmiri Butt. The only urban centres within this region were Gujranwala and Sialkot city areas which were pretty small towns until just 50 years ago. The only nearby big urban centre was Lahore. There were Khatris and Arora shop keepers and money lenders in most of the villages of Gujranwala and Sialkot regions but they were not culturally a dominating people in any of those villages. Even today I clearly see stark difference in the language and manners of Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) and the remaining paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot villages. Though my family now lives in Lahore but originally we are from a village of Gujranwala and I always see the marked difference between the mindset and manners of urban old inhabitants of Lahore who were mostly of Khatri origin than the newly arrived paindu types from Gujranwala/Sialkot regions that is why I feel Khatris should be seen as a separate urban isolates within the greater paindu communities of central Punjab, I doubt they share common origin with paindus castes of Pakistani punjab, the difference in manners is just too stark. I personally feel that Khatris have originated north of Chenab and possibly even north of Jehlum river, as a cultural/ethnic group they just don't fit among the crude paindu type ethnic groups that are found south of chenab river in Rachna doab.

A pure paindu unsophisticated zinda dil blunt Gujranwala/Sialkot villager from old times sound something like this old guy in the video who is Malhi Jatt from a village near Pasroor, you will never ever find someone like him among Sheikhs (Muslim Khatris) but you will easily find such characters among Jatts, Gujjars, Arain, Kashmiri Butt, Tarkhan (Tarkhans use Mughal, Mirza family names in these areas) etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscv1rnbaww&t=2584s

And this a Kashmiri Butt villager from Chawinda Sialkot area, he also has quite similar blunt personality like the Malhi Jatt guy in the above video which is hall mark of Gujranwala/Sialkot rural areas,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EH2NZm9pBU&t=1464s

Since you're familiar with pendu culture of lehnda punjab, I'm really curious about Muslim Tarkhans. They use mughal title to rise up in social status, but they still carry their real gotra. Like this guy I knew used Sagoo, which is used by Sikh Tarkhans too. What's their lifestyle like, social status, any information you can provide would be awesome. I really wish I could get some of them tested because right now I have almost 15 kits of Sikh and Hindu tarkhans but not muslim ones. And out of all of us, muslim ones seem the most backward, and at the bottom in social status.

Rahuls77
09-08-2018, 04:42 AM
This sample belong to brahmin from Kahuta?

Yes, that's correct.

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 05:12 AM
Yes, that's correct.

His NE euro is definitely highest I've seen from that area and no NE Asian. Your result were more typical of that region from what I've seen in samples from Pakistan.

AmjadPak
09-08-2018, 05:35 AM
Since you're familiar with pendu culture of lehnda punjab, I'm really curious about Muslim Tarkhans. They use mughal title to rise up in social status, but they still carry their real gotra. Like this guy I knew used Sagoo, which is used by Sikh Tarkhans too. What's their lifestyle like, social status, any information you can provide would be awesome. I really wish I could get some of them tested because right now I have almost 15 kits of Sikh and Hindu tarkhans but not muslim ones. And out of all of us, muslim ones seem the most backward, and at the bottom in social status.

We have actually three different types of biradaries all considered to be the same caste, they are Tarkhan which means carpenter, Mistri which means Mason and Lohar which is offcourse Black smith. Tarkhan, Mistri and Lohar are all considered to form the same caste. We don't have this word "gotra" in Pakistani vocabulary, I think if your ask a random Pakistan what does gotra means I am sure 99% will be blank about it. The standard words in our areas are Zaat, Qaum and Biradari. For exampe If someone is Cheema Jatt, one can say he belongs to Jatt Qaum/Biradri and his zaat is Cheema.

Well Mistri, Tarkhan and Lohar are quite well to do people in Pakistan these days, actually we don't have caste based monopolies on social status. In Pakistan what matters is your economic and general societal strength. You could be Jatt, Gujjar or Rajput but if you are poor no body is going to give any damn about you based on being Jatt, Gujjar or Rajput not even your peers from the same caste. But if someone is rich and exercises considerable political or social influence in his area then his caste doesn't matter, everyone generally respects such person irrespective of his caste.

Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar in Lahore, Gujranwala and Sialkot regions and I believe in other parts of Pakistani Punjab as well adopted a fashion to use Mughal or Mirza or sometimes even Baig as family names, what was the reason behind this I really have no idea. What I know that since my childhood I know that Mughal in Gujranwala/Sialkot region means belonging to Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar origins. I can safely say these are the most skillful people in our society, they were good in engineering owing to the nature of their work so they have made a smooth transition to establish small and medium scale engineering enterprises mostly invovling maufacturing of Steel and wood products for various applications. I think most of small industries owners in Gujranwala/Sialkot cities belong to Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar mughal families, so a large chunk of them are quite well to do people these days. Many of them have also emigrated to Gulf on Work visas where they are involved in jobs related to construction and furniture making. The Mistri/Tarkhans of our neighborhood are mostly settled in Saudi Arabia on Work visas and the one in our area have their own Furniture making shops or they are involved in mason work. They are politically also quite represented as one of the provincial assembly MPA from my ancestral constituency in Gujranwala is Mughal Tarkhan and he has been MPA since my childhood. The biggest industrial group in Gujranwala called Super Asia washing machines is also owned by Mughal Tarkhan family. Then we have water pump manufacturing enterprises also owned by local Mughal Tarkhans. They are definitely not any kind of backword community, they are just a normal community like anyone else.

The only reason I can think of for Takhans/Mistri/Lohar to have started using Mughal/Mirza family names could be that these people were heavily employed by Mughals during Mughal empire as construction Masons, Furniture makers and Sword and other weapon makers owing to their engineering capabilities and with time many of them would have adopted Mughal/Mirza as their family names and then it just became fashionable for their peers to follow the trend. Another theory could be that some of the Muslim Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohars are indeed descendants of Turko-Persians masons/carpenters/metal workers who after the collapse of Mughal empire just got lumped with the local indigenous origin Muslim Tarkhans/Mistri/Lohars communities. They do show higher incidence of lighter skinned individuals compared to other artisan communities which might be due to absorption of Turko-Persians muslim masons and carpenters etc., this is just my theory to explain this Mughal/Mirza family name phenomenon among muslim Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar.


This is a video of a Muslim Tarkhan narrating events about his village Sankhatra Narowal/Sialkot pre-1947, this is the ancestral village of famous bollywood old actor Rajinder Kumar, the old man's name is Yousuf Mughal and he tells during the interview that he is very skilled Mason,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt_c955-LnU&t=3014s

Rahuls77
09-08-2018, 06:00 AM
His NE euro is definitely highest I've seen from that area and no NE Asian. Your result were more typical of that region from what I've seen in samples from Pakistan.

I am interested in looking at results of the Janjuas.

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 06:16 AM
I am interested in looking at results of the Janjuas.

I'll have to look up for janjua results but here is Abbasi results from Murree which is near Kahuta.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.38
2 S-Indian 31.88
3 Caucasian 14.25
4 NE-Euro 7.03
5 NE-Asian 2.21
6 Beringian 1.69
7 Siberian 0.97
8 American 0.91
9 SW-Asian 0.85
10 SE-Asian 0.55
11 Papuan 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.02
2 kashmiri (harappa) 3.66
3 punjabi (harappa) 3.92
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.08
5 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.18
6 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 5.22
7 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 5.32
8 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.35
9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.8
10 sindhi (harappa) 6.05
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.65
12 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.79
13 up-muslim (harappa) 7.13
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.72
15 sindhi (hgdp) 8.62
16 pathan (hgdp) 9.38
17 bhatia (harappa) 9.91
18 nepalese-a (xing) 10.15
19 burusho (hgdp) 10.26
20 kalash (hgdp) 11.4

Rahuls77
09-08-2018, 06:22 AM
I'll have to look up for janjua results but here is Abbasi results from Murree which is near Kahuta.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.38
2 S-Indian 31.88
3 Caucasian 14.25
4 NE-Euro 7.03
5 NE-Asian 2.21
6 Beringian 1.69
7 Siberian 0.97
8 American 0.91
9 SW-Asian 0.85
10 SE-Asian 0.55
11 Papuan 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.02
2 kashmiri (harappa) 3.66
3 punjabi (harappa) 3.92
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.08
5 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.18
6 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 5.22
7 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 5.32
8 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.35
9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.8
10 sindhi (harappa) 6.05
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.65
12 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.79
13 up-muslim (harappa) 7.13
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.72
15 sindhi (hgdp) 8.62
16 pathan (hgdp) 9.38
17 bhatia (harappa) 9.91
18 nepalese-a (xing) 10.15
19 burusho (hgdp) 10.26
20 kalash (hgdp) 11.4

Thank you.
I found results of a user called heir of Gandhara, who is from Jehlum, Banned from the forum now though.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12865-Salt-Range-Pothwar-Raja-DNA-results&highlight=janjua

Here are his Harappa numbers.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

MonkeyDLuffy
09-08-2018, 12:55 PM
We have actually three different types of biradaries all considered to be the same caste, they are Tarkhan which means carpenter, Mistri which means Mason and Lohar which is offcourse Black smith. Tarkhan, Mistri and Lohar are all considered to form the same caste. We don't have this word "gotra" in Pakistani vocabulary, I think if your ask a random Pakistan what does gotra means I am sure 99% will be blank about it. The standard words in our areas are Zaat, Qaum and Biradari. For exampe If someone is Cheema Jatt, one can say he belongs to Jatt Qaum/Biradri and his zaat is Cheema.

Well Mistri, Tarkhan and Lohar are quite well to do people in Pakistan these days, actually we don't have caste based monopolies on social status. In Pakistan what matters is your economic and general societal strength. You could be Jatt, Gujjar or Rajput but if you are poor no body is going to give any damn about you based on being Jatt, Gujjar or Rajput not even your peers from the same caste. But if someone is rich and exercises considerable political or social influence in his area then his caste doesn't matter, everyone generally respects such person irrespective of his caste.

Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar in Lahore, Gujranwala and Sialkot regions and I believe in other parts of Pakistani Punjab as well adopted a fashion to use Mughal or Mirza or sometimes even Baig as family names, what was the reason behind this I really have no idea. What I know that since my childhood I know that Mughal in Gujranwala/Sialkot region means belonging to Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar origins. I can safely say these are the most skillful people in our society, they were good in engineering owing to the nature of their work so they have made a smooth transition to establish small and medium scale engineering enterprises mostly invovling maufacturing of Steel and wood products for various applications. I think most of small industries owners in Gujranwala/Sialkot cities belong to Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar mughal families, so a large chunk of them are quite well to do people these days. Many of them have also emigrated to Gulf on Work visas where they are involved in jobs related to construction and furniture making. The Mistri/Tarkhans of our neighborhood are mostly settled in Saudi Arabia on Work visas and the one in our area have their own Furniture making shops or they are involved in mason work. They are politically also quite represented as one of the provincial assembly MPA from my ancestral constituency in Gujranwala is Mughal Tarkhan and he has been MPA since my childhood. The biggest industrial group in Gujranwala called Super Asia washing machines is also owned by Mughal Tarkhan family. Then we have water pump manufacturing enterprises also owned by local Mughal Tarkhans. They are definitely not any kind of backword community, they are just a normal community like anyone else.

The only reason I can think of for Takhans/Mistri/Lohar to have started using Mughal/Mirza family names could be that these people were heavily employed by Mughals during Mughal empire as construction Masons, Furniture makers and Sword and other weapon makers owing to their engineering capabilities and with time many of them would have adopted Mughal/Mirza as their family names and then it just became fashionable for their peers to follow the trend. Another theory could be that some of the Muslim Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohars are indeed descendants of Turko-Persians masons/carpenters/metal workers who after the collapse of Mughal empire just got lumped with the local indigenous origin Muslim Tarkhans/Mistri/Lohars communities. They do show higher incidence of lighter skinned individuals compared to other artisan communities which might be due to absorption of Turko-Persians muslim masons and carpenters etc., this is just my theory to explain this Mughal/Mirza family name phenomenon among muslim Tarkhan/Mistri/Lohar.


This is a video of a Muslim Tarkhan narrating events about his village Sankhatra Narowal/Sialkot pre-1947, this is the ancestral village of famous bollywood old actor Rajinder Kumar, the old man's name is Yousuf Mughal and he tells during the interview that he is very skilled Mason,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt_c955-LnU&t=3014s

Thanks for the brief reply, we don't use the term gotra either, in Punjabi we say *got*. Mistri and Tarkhan is considered the same term in us, while lohar are seen as different. We do not intermarry with them as far as I know.

The title Tarkhan is turkic in origin so indeed it came with mughals. I don't think that unmixed muslim Tarkhans would score any different from their Sikh and Hindu counterparts. The only trend I've noticed in our results, is that we score high siberian/NE asian like mix, and Tarkhans score very much like kashmiri and neighbouring pahari groups.

I'm really curious in them because they're my kin, still use the same surnames and we don't have a single result from them.

bored
09-08-2018, 01:15 PM
His NE euro is definitely highest I've seen from that area and no NE Asian. Your result were more typical of that region from what I've seen in samples from Pakistan.

But look at his elevated American, Siberian and Beringian scores. That’s where his NE Asian is going imo

AmjadPak
09-08-2018, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the brief reply, we don't use the term gotra either, in Punjabi we say *got*. Mistri and Tarkhan is considered the same term in us, while lohar are seen as different. We do not intermarry with them as far as I know.

The title Tarkhan is turkic in origin so indeed it came with mughals. I don't think that unmixed muslim Tarkhans would score any different from their Sikh and Hindu counterparts. The only trend I've noticed in our results, is that we score high siberian/NE asian like mix, and Tarkhans score very much like kashmiri and neighbouring pahari groups.

I'm really curious in them because they're my kin, still use the same surnames and we don't have a single result from them.

I am sure there will be many Punjabi Mughal tarkhan/Mistri caste people from Pakistan living in Canada. May be one day you may come across one of them, that could be your chance to get them tested. Because back in Pakistan people really don't have any knowledge or interest in this kind of stuff.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-08-2018, 01:59 PM
I am sure there will be many Punjabi Mughal tarkhan/Mistri caste people from Pakistan living in Canada. May be one day you may come across one of them, that could be your chance to get them tested. Because back in Pakistan people really don't have any knowledge or interest in this kind of stuff.

My dad have Muslim Tarkhan friends in Dubai. He's the one who told me about them having same surnames. I'm sure there are many of them tested in west but it's hard to find them on gedmatch because of Muslim names, which makes it really hard to know their clan or ethnicity.

I find it funny when you said they've moved to gulf and made money, because that's what we did as well, like I can't think of a male my family who haven't been to gulf or worked there. I have family members all over Saudi, Dubai, Oman and Bahrain who own transport companies.

AmjadPak
09-08-2018, 02:21 PM
My dad have Muslim Tarkhan friends in Dubai. He's the one who told me about them having same surnames. I'm sure there are many of them tested in west but it's hard to find them on gedmatch because of Muslim names, which makes it really hard to know their clan or ethnicity.

I find it funny when you said they've moved to gulf and made money, because that's what we did as well, like I can't think of a male my family who haven't been to gulf or worked there. I have family members all over Saudi, Dubai, Oman and Bahrain who own transport companies.

I think the reason could be that Gulf countries like Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE always need a lot of skilled masons, metal workers, carpenters etc., so Tarkhan/Mistri people are in the best position to get those skilled jobs compared to people from other castes of Pakistan who usually get unskilled labour jobs there, but this has been and still remains one of the huge employment opportunity for people from central parts of Pakistani Punjab as agriculture is on the decline in our region due to increasing urbanization and industrialization happening in areas like Lahore, Gujranwala and Sialkot. The traditional agrarian economy just cannot provide the employment opportunities even though it used to be the case 70 years ago when every one was getting his livelihood either directly or indirectly from agrarian economy. So people have to find new ways of livelihood and going to Gulf for skilled or unskilled work for earning livelihood has been a common trend in Pakistan since 70s. I can safely say every second or third household in Gujranwala/Sialkot region has at least one member of their family working in one of the Gulf countries.

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 03:11 PM
Baig results I posted some time ago, these could as well be from Tarkhan community from Sialkot or Lahore originally.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.09
2 S-Indian 31.44
3 Caucasian 13.41
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 Siberian 2.2
6 NE-Asian 1.77
7 SW-Asian 1.38
8 American 1.14
9 Beringian 1.01
10 SE-Asian 0.72
11 W-African 0.24
12 E-African 0.21
13 Pygmy 0.18
14 San 0.11


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 35.59
2 Baloch 32.93
3 Caucasian 10.58
4 NE-Euro 8.91
5 Siberian 2.97
6 NE-Asian 2.19
7 SW-Asian 2.11
8 Mediterranean 1.64
9 American 1.1
10 SE-Asian 0.89
11 San 0.5
12 W-African 0.37
13 Beringian 0.22



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.62
2 S-Indian 30.84
3 NE-Euro 12.25
4 Caucasian 12.12
5 American 1.8
6 Siberian 1.56
7 SW-Asian 0.91
8 NE-Asian 0.6
9 Beringian 0.31


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 34.16
2 S-Indian 26.97
3 Caucasian 14.91
4 NE-Euro 8.88
5 Siberian 4
6 SW-Asian 3.22
7 NE-Asian 2.9
8 Mediterranean 1.83
9 American 0.78
10 SE-Asian 0.74
11 Beringian 0.68
12 San 0.5
13 W-African 0.41


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.56
2 S-Indian 31.19
3 NE-Euro 11.88
4 Caucasian 11.52
5 Siberian 1.97
6 SW-Asian 1.17
7 Beringian 1
8 Papuan 0.74
9 American 0.74
10 NE-Asian 0.23

MonkeyDLuffy
09-08-2018, 03:17 PM
Baig results I posted some time ago, these could as well be from Tarkhan community from Sialkot or Lahore originally.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.09
2 S-Indian 31.44
3 Caucasian 13.41
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 Siberian 2.2
6 NE-Asian 1.77
7 SW-Asian 1.38
8 American 1.14
9 Beringian 1.01
10 SE-Asian 0.72
11 W-African 0.24
12 E-African 0.21
13 Pygmy 0.18
14 San 0.11


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 35.59
2 Baloch 32.93
3 Caucasian 10.58
4 NE-Euro 8.91
5 Siberian 2.97
6 NE-Asian 2.19
7 SW-Asian 2.11
8 Mediterranean 1.64
9 American 1.1
10 SE-Asian 0.89
11 San 0.5
12 W-African 0.37
13 Beringian 0.22



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.62
2 S-Indian 30.84
3 NE-Euro 12.25
4 Caucasian 12.12
5 American 1.8
6 Siberian 1.56
7 SW-Asian 0.91
8 NE-Asian 0.6
9 Beringian 0.31


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 34.16
2 S-Indian 26.97
3 Caucasian 14.91
4 NE-Euro 8.88
5 Siberian 4
6 SW-Asian 3.22
7 NE-Asian 2.9
8 Mediterranean 1.83
9 American 0.78
10 SE-Asian 0.74
11 Beringian 0.68
12 San 0.5
13 W-African 0.41


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.56
2 S-Indian 31.19
3 NE-Euro 11.88
4 Caucasian 11.52
5 Siberian 1.97
6 SW-Asian 1.17
7 Beringian 1
8 Papuan 0.74
9 American 0.74
10 NE-Asian 0.23

They all are in line with the sikh tarkhan results I've except one. See they follow the same trend, high siberian and NE asian. Makes me wonder if we legit received some east turkic like mix. Is it possible if you can post their halogroups? I've seen R2, J2/J1, T, and L popping more for Tarkhans. There are 2 C as well which is east asian in origin.

bored
09-08-2018, 03:49 PM
Baig results I posted some time ago, these could as well be from Tarkhan community from Sialkot or Lahore originally.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.09
2 S-Indian 31.44
3 Caucasian 13.41
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 Siberian 2.2
6 NE-Asian 1.77
7 SW-Asian 1.38
8 American 1.14
9 Beringian 1.01
10 SE-Asian 0.72
11 W-African 0.24
12 E-African 0.21
13 Pygmy 0.18
14 San 0.11


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 35.59
2 Baloch 32.93
3 Caucasian 10.58
4 NE-Euro 8.91
5 Siberian 2.97
6 NE-Asian 2.19
7 SW-Asian 2.11
8 Mediterranean 1.64
9 American 1.1
10 SE-Asian 0.89
11 San 0.5
12 W-African 0.37
13 Beringian 0.22



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.62
2 S-Indian 30.84
3 NE-Euro 12.25
4 Caucasian 12.12
5 American 1.8
6 Siberian 1.56
7 SW-Asian 0.91
8 NE-Asian 0.6
9 Beringian 0.31


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 34.16
2 S-Indian 26.97
3 Caucasian 14.91
4 NE-Euro 8.88
5 Siberian 4
6 SW-Asian 3.22
7 NE-Asian 2.9
8 Mediterranean 1.83
9 American 0.78
10 SE-Asian 0.74
11 Beringian 0.68
12 San 0.5
13 W-African 0.41


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.56
2 S-Indian 31.19
3 NE-Euro 11.88
4 Caucasian 11.52
5 Siberian 1.97
6 SW-Asian 1.17
7 Beringian 1
8 Papuan 0.74
9 American 0.74
10 NE-Asian 0.23

Can u post their oracles or kit no. ?

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 03:56 PM
They all are in line with the sikh tarkhan results I've except one. See they follow the same trend, high siberian and NE asian. Makes me wonder if we legit received some east turkic like mix. Is it possible if you can post their halogroups? I've seen R2, J2/J1, T, and L popping more for Tarkhans. There are 2 C as well which is east asian in origin.

No idea about haplogroups, found them on gedmatch.

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 04:04 PM
Can u post their oracles or kit no. ?

Check PM.

Saad2016
09-08-2018, 04:13 PM
my two cents : PTI does not have the populous support to divide Punjab in to two. Fragile govt. barely making the required numbers and has already taken too many U turns including sacking of a minority technocrat for no other reason than his religion. Southern, Central and Northern Punjab - the only difference is that of a dialect if u understand one u understand the other two dialects.

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 04:24 PM
Thank you.
I found results of a user called heir of Gandhara, who is from Jehlum, Banned from the forum now though.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12865-Salt-Range-Pothwar-Raja-DNA-results&highlight=janjua

Here are his Harappa numbers.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Mcninja sheet also have 1 janjua from AJK. And there was another user who was janjua/gujjar from Gujrat. Though Murree is more like proper AJK pahari and neighbour hindko areas compared to Jhelum.

purohit
09-08-2018, 04:47 PM
Which nw population is closest to this result.

1 Baloch 35.83
2 S-Indian 30.69
3 NE-Euro 10.10
4 Caucasian 12.26
5 Siberian 3.12
6 SW-Asian 1
7 Mediterranean 2
8 se asian 2

Sapporo
09-08-2018, 05:04 PM
Which nw population is closest to this result.

1 Baloch 35.83
2 S-Indian 30.69
3 NE-Euro 10.10
4 Caucasian 12.26
5 Siberian 3.12
6 SW-Asian 1
7 Mediterranean 2
8 se asian 2

Post their full results (with oracle) but the lower Baloch coupled with high Siberian + SE Asian is throwing me off. Could be various things. I'm not going to go off the oracle 100% though. Just curious.

purohit
09-08-2018, 05:29 PM
Post their full results (with oracle) but the lower Baloch coupled with high Siberian + SE Asian is throwing me off. Could be various things. I'm not going to go off the oracle 100% though. Just curious.


Hrp 0238
Pushtikar brahmin
https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

Sapporo
09-08-2018, 05:45 PM
Hrp 0238
Pushtikar brahmin
https://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/

Ah, they're from Zack's run so it's hard to comment since his personal run versus Harappa GEDMatch isn't consistent and is usually much noisier. Regardless, they have some resemblance to one Punjabi Brahmin kit I have though.

Rahuls77
09-08-2018, 05:51 PM
Mcninja sheet also have 1 janjua from AJK. And there was another user who was janjua/gujjar from Gujrat. Though Murree is more like proper AJK pahari and neighbour hindko areas compared to Jhelum.

I agree, Janjuas are mostly in Kahuta, with Matore their mothership, however I know of a few of them outside, as far as Chakwal and even in Kharian.

Rahuls77
09-08-2018, 06:14 PM
Thanks for the brief reply, we don't use the term gotra either, in Punjabi we say *got*. Mistri and Tarkhan is considered the same term in us, while lohar are seen as different. We do not intermarry with them as far as I know.

The title Tarkhan is turkic in origin so indeed it came with mughals. I don't think that unmixed muslim Tarkhans would score any different from their Sikh and Hindu counterparts. The only trend I've noticed in our results, is that we score high siberian/NE asian like mix, and Tarkhans score very much like kashmiri and neighbouring pahari groups.

I'm really curious in them because they're my kin, still use the same surnames and we don't have a single result from them.

I have a feeling that Tarkhan was a Turkic Administrative class, and it likely arrived in India, the usage or the ancestry, between 200 BC to 800 AD. What followed, you can blame it on the Indian Caste System, which evolved 800 to 1200 ybp.

AmjadPak
09-08-2018, 06:49 PM
I have a feeling that Tarkhan was a Turkic Administrative class, and it likely arrived in India, the usage or the ancestry, between 200 BC to 800 AD. What followed, you can blame it on the Indian Caste System, which evolved 800 to 1200 ybp.

I am also having the same kind of feeling, the whole caste system looks like a joke in case of West Punjab and Kashmir and the mountain areas in between. The genetics results that I have seen so far hardly show any remarkable differences between various "castes" in these regions irrespective of whether they are land owning castes, farmer castes, martial castes, artisan castes, trader castes, they all seem to be similar in terms of basic genetic admixture. I am also starting to believe that the whole caste system and caste obsessions have been imported from areas east of Punjab and Kashmir in rather recent times. It shouldn't be surprising after all the people living in both West Punjab, Kashmir and erstwhile Gandhara were called Maleechas (or casteless people) in ancient indian texts.

bol_nat
09-08-2018, 07:39 PM
Very interesting. May be I do not know much context in this particular case, but speaking from my own experiences, even 1 generation of urban living can bring out a completely different set of mannerisms and 2nd generation urbanized people may feel like they have nothing in common with the rural and vice versa.

In Pakistan 1 gen will hardly make difference. I believe these old Lahoris are the ones that now produce burger type people. Many of same lot migrated to Islamabad in early days when it was created. Though in recent decades there has been huge increase of rural migration to Lahore and Islamabad. In Pakistan only Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad will have section of population some may consider have urban mindset, ignoring the other large section made of recent rural migrants. In rest of cities from Rawalpindi to Faisalabad vast majority tend to be rural types.

poi
09-08-2018, 07:44 PM
I am also having the same kind of feeling, the whole caste system looks like a joke in case of West Punjab and Kashmir and the mountain areas in between. The genetics results that I have seen so far hardly show any remarkable differences between various "castes" in these regions irrespective of whether they are land owning castes, farmer castes, martial castes, artisan castes, trader castes, they all seem to be similar in terms of basic genetic admixture. I am also starting to believe that the whole caste system and caste obsessions have been imported from areas east of Punjab and Kashmir in rather recent times. It shouldn't be surprising after all the people living in both West Punjab, Kashmir and erstwhile Gandhara were called Maleechas (or casteless people) in ancient indian texts.Punjab was the core, not considered mleccha at all. Since Buddhism had a tremendous impact in the NW, it makes sense that whatever genetic dissimarities castes had before would have been normalized in the NW. Basically, castes didn't exist in the early iron age, became prominent with the RigVedic Purusha Sukhta and peaked before Ashoka's Buddhism completely wiped out Hinduism in the NW perhaps only Brahmins remained. Then Buddhism was wiped out and various groups became various castes and Incorporated back in.

Rinse and repeat with Islam in the picture.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-08-2018, 11:54 PM
I am also having the same kind of feeling, the whole caste system looks like a joke in case of West Punjab and Kashmir and the mountain areas in between. The genetics results that I have seen so far hardly show any remarkable differences between various "castes" in these regions irrespective of whether they are land owning castes, farmer castes, martial castes, artisan castes, trader castes, they all seem to be similar in terms of basic genetic admixture. I am also starting to believe that the whole caste system and caste obsessions have been imported from areas east of Punjab and Kashmir in rather recent times. It shouldn't be surprising after all the people living in both West Punjab, Kashmir and erstwhile Gandhara were called Maleechas (or casteless people) in ancient indian texts.

We often fail to realize the whole region was core of Vedic culture before arrival of Islam in centuries. It is not a caste system, it is tribal system, which people in west punjab kept even after converting to Islam. It wasn't imported, it was always there, way before islam or foundation of Hinduism during early vedic ages. I'd avoid creating a divide between both parts of Punjab by blaming one for issues. If we go by Original Hindu caste system, pretty much all the biradaris of Punjab and surrounding regions (Yes Charhda and Lehnda Punjab) would fall under so called Shudras, maybe exceptions like Rajputs and Khatris will be top dogs in that scenario.

East Punjab is Sikh dominated, and Jatts are top dogs here, if caste system was so in our core, jatts would be at bottom along side with everyone and Brahmins will be on top. In Sikh society a Jatt and Rajput are same status, yet they would avoid intermarrying because they both look down on each other, it is tribal mentality. Exactly like how we think our city is the best or our village is the best or even our house is the best.

Kashmiris muslims are like majority Brahmins converts, heck they even keep the surnames to this day like Bhat became Butt. So this caste system or zaat system is not new, it originated from here and spreaded to other parts of the subcontinent.

AmjadPak
09-09-2018, 12:03 AM
We often fail to realize the whole region was core of Vedic culture before arrival of Islam in centuries. It is not a caste system, it is tribal system, which people in west punjab kept even after converting to Islam. It wasn't imported, it was always there, way before islam or foundation of Hinduism during early vedic ages. I'd avoid creating a divide between both parts of Punjab by blaming one for issues. If we go by Original Hindu caste system, pretty much all the biradaris of Punjab and surrounding regions (Yes Charhda and Lehnda Punjab) would fall under so called Shudras, maybe exceptions like Rajputs and Khatris will be top dogs in that scenario.

East Punjab is Sikh dominated, and Jatts are top dogs here, if caste system was so in our core, jatts would be at bottom along side with everyone and Brahmins will be on top. In Sikh society a Jatt and Rajput are same status, yet they would avoid intermarrying because they both look down on each other, it is tribal mentality. Exactly like how we think our city is the best or our village is the best or even our house is the best.

Kashmiris muslims are like majority Brahmins converts, heck they even keep the surnames to this day like Bhat became Butt. So this caste system or zaat system is not new, it originated from here and spreaded to other parts of the subcontinent.

If you consider the caste system as "tribalism" then you really don't understand what a "tribe" actually means or how "tribalism" works. Pashtuns and Balochs have what you call proper tribes and tribalism. Any way our west Punjab muslim society doesn't have the same kind of indian casteism like indian Punjab, our caste system has evolved more into economic and social class system post 1947 after the non-muslim hindus and sikhs left our region together with their caste delicacies.

And family names don't have that much importance for people under 40 years of age in Pakistan these days, only a minority still uses caste names in their official documents, majority just doesn't, the usual trend is to attach your father name as your last name.

Saad2016
09-09-2018, 12:40 AM
If you consider the caste system as "tribalism" then you really don't understand what a "tribe" actually means or how "tribalism" works. Pashtuns and Balochs have what you call proper tribes and tribalism. Any way our west Punjab muslim society doesn't have the same kind of indian casteism like indian Punjab, our caste system has evolved more into economic and social class system post 1947 after the non-muslim hindus and sikhs left our region together with their caste delicacies.

And family names don't have that much importance for people under 40 years of age in Pakistan these days, only a minority still uses caste names in their official documents, majority just doesn't, the usual trend is to attach your father name as your last name.

I do agree with monkeydluffy as my experience of Pakistani Punjab is...that the jatts don't claim themselves as superior caste over the awaans, janjuas or rajputs etc etc.. they are more like clans/tribes and not caste hierarchy related. Anybody from Pakistani Punjab can second that.

Saad2016
09-09-2018, 12:43 AM
We often fail to realize the whole region was core of Vedic culture before arrival of Islam in centuries. It is not a caste system, it is tribal system, which people in west punjab kept even after converting to Islam. It wasn't imported, it was always there, way before islam or foundation of Hinduism during early vedic ages. I'd avoid creating a divide between both parts of Punjab by blaming one for issues. If we go by Original Hindu caste system, pretty much all the biradaris of Punjab and surrounding regions (Yes Charhda and Lehnda Punjab) would fall under so called Shudras, maybe exceptions like Rajputs and Khatris will be top dogs in that scenario.

East Punjab is Sikh dominated, and Jatts are top dogs here, if caste system was so in our core, jatts would be at bottom along side with everyone and Brahmins will be on top. In Sikh society a Jatt and Rajput are same status, yet they would avoid intermarrying because they both look down on each other, it is tribal mentality. Exactly like how we think our city is the best or our village is the best or even our house is the best.

Kashmiris muslims are like majority Brahmins converts, heck they even keep the surnames to this day like Bhat became Butt. So this caste system or zaat system is not new, it originated from here and spreaded to other parts of the subcontinent.

I agree more like clans/tribes and not that classical caste system hierarchy . No documented religious or social evidence that one is superior to others. My challenge : give me one reference from any of the religious books /oral narrations that jatts are superior to gujjars or awaans are superiors to Punjabi janjuas or waraichs etc etc... .

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 12:44 AM
What is seen in the Pakistani Punjab, is an interesting synthesis of the Arab tribal structures and the Indic caste system, albeit with economic status determining the station and the confidence. However the Indic experiment with Caste has been turning ever more weird and its a lot about a certain 'higher' station, regardless one's skills, capabilities or what one might have achieved as an individual. And for most part, the narrative driving all such perspective on caste comes from an indology discipline which developed in the absence of genetic evidence over a vast period, coupled with European fascination with racial purity that had afflicted with its charm a lot of South Asians as well.

I had a chat with a friend, a Tajik 'Pashtun' from the Peshawar Valley who had an interesting and revealing take on it.

Discussion with a friend today, about the "unusual" presence of "Adivasi" Y-DNA H marker in Rajput Thakurs in Himachal....to whom I said....

"If you remember about what I said regarding the Indo-Hunnic revival of Hinduism (especially with a Kshtriya accent) , and its being as important as the original Indo-Aryan arrival 2000 years before it.....then this "changed caste dynamic" of Rajputs having H is simply evidence of what I said: Rajputs, Gujjars, Jats etc are simply "empowered" Adivasis, whom the Hunnic influence so facilitated.

In a similar way, many Adivasis could have joined the Brahman bandwagon too....

Not only that, but this evidence will be music to the ears of those who contend that India itself was the source of the Aryans".........

Jatt1
09-09-2018, 09:32 AM
What is seen in the Pakistani Punjab, is an interesting synthesis of the Arab tribal structures and the Indic caste system, albeit with economic status determining the station and the confidence. However the Indic experiment with Caste has been turning ever more weird and its a lot about a certain 'higher' station, regardless one's skills, capabilities or what one might have achieved as an individual. And for most part, the narrative driving all such perspective on caste comes from an indology discipline which developed in the absence of genetic evidence over a vast period, coupled with European fascination with racial purity that had afflicted with its charm a lot of South Asians as well.

I had a chat with a friend, a Tajik 'Pashtun' from the Peshawar Valley who had an interesting and revealing take on it.

Discussion with a friend today, about the "unusual" presence of "Adivasi" Y-DNA H marker in Rajput Thakurs in Himachal....to whom I said....

"If you remember about what I said regarding the Indo-Hunnic revival of Hinduism (especially with a Kshtriya accent) , and its being as important as the original Indo-Aryan arrival 2000 years before it.....then this "changed caste dynamic" of Rajputs having H is simply evidence of what I said: Rajputs, Gujjars, Jats etc are simply "empowered" Adivasis, whom the Hunnic influence so facilitated.

In a similar way, many Adivasis could have joined the Brahman bandwagon too....

Not only that, but this evidence will be music to the ears of those who contend that India itself was the source of the Aryans".........

What is his explanation for the presence of R1a1a, J2, L-M357, R2 and Q, and lack of H yDNA among Jatts?

AmjadPak
09-09-2018, 12:56 PM
Baig results I posted some time ago, these could as well be from Tarkhan community from Sialkot or Lahore originally.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.09
2 S-Indian 31.44
3 Caucasian 13.41
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 Siberian 2.2
6 NE-Asian 1.77
7 SW-Asian 1.38
8 American 1.14
9 Beringian 1.01
10 SE-Asian 0.72
11 W-African 0.24
12 E-African 0.21
13 Pygmy 0.18
14 San 0.11


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 35.59
2 Baloch 32.93
3 Caucasian 10.58
4 NE-Euro 8.91
5 Siberian 2.97
6 NE-Asian 2.19
7 SW-Asian 2.11
8 Mediterranean 1.64
9 American 1.1
10 SE-Asian 0.89
11 San 0.5
12 W-African 0.37
13 Beringian 0.22



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.62
2 S-Indian 30.84
3 NE-Euro 12.25
4 Caucasian 12.12
5 American 1.8
6 Siberian 1.56
7 SW-Asian 0.91
8 NE-Asian 0.6
9 Beringian 0.31


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 34.16
2 S-Indian 26.97
3 Caucasian 14.91
4 NE-Euro 8.88
5 Siberian 4
6 SW-Asian 3.22
7 NE-Asian 2.9
8 Mediterranean 1.83
9 American 0.78
10 SE-Asian 0.74
11 Beringian 0.68
12 San 0.5
13 W-African 0.41


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.56
2 S-Indian 31.19
3 NE-Euro 11.88
4 Caucasian 11.52
5 Siberian 1.97
6 SW-Asian 1.17
7 Beringian 1
8 Papuan 0.74
9 American 0.74
10 NE-Asian 0.23

We shouldn't really make a guess that they are Mistri Tarkhan unless it is verified from the Kitholders, they could be urdu speaking muhajirs migrated from india as I have noticed that many urdu speaking Muhajirs also tend to have surnames such as Mirza and particularly Baig which is very rare among Punjabi Mistri Tarkhans who predominantly use only Mughal as their surname, usually it is only some Punjabi Lohar people who tend to use Mirza or Baig as their surname. But Monkeydluffy was saying that in indian Punjab Mistri/Tarkhan is quite distinct from Lohar community and no intermarriage takes place between them.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-09-2018, 01:12 PM
What is his explanation for the presence of R1a1a, J2, L-M357, R2 and Q, and lack of H yDNA among Jatts?

H is found among jatts, I think we even found D, just comes under minority Halogroups. Bolnat is H.

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 01:25 PM
What is his explanation for the presence of R1a1a, J2, L-M357, R2 and Q, and lack of H yDNA among Jatts?

Is it altogether absent from those samples? As MonkeyDLuffy mentions, it is prevalent among Jatts too, and among many Kashmiris, including Pandits, besides Rajputs of the Indic Himalayan belt. And I know of one instance in Chitral, albeit with very high NE, West Asia, & Caucasian autosomal admixtures, and this gentleman has about 18% SI, and virtually 0 SEA, if you go by the Harappaworld model on Gedmatch. His NEE is, I think, about 22%.

Sapporo
09-09-2018, 01:31 PM
What is his explanation for the presence of R1a1a, J2, L-M357, R2 and Q, and lack of H yDNA among Jatts?

H is found among Jatts. I believe even the Mahal paper referenced it as one of the minority haplogroups outside of L, R, Q and J. It's just a very low % (lower than 10%). I even found a single individual Bains who is O, which is probably found in less than 1-2% of Jatts.

H is even found in small amounts among Pashtuns and Tajiks so it's not surprising to find it among Jatts too. Due to a founder effect, the Kalash are over 20% H.



"If you remember about what I said regarding the Indo-Hunnic revival of Hinduism (especially with a Kshtriya accent) , and its being as important as the original Indo-Aryan arrival 2000 years before it.....then this "changed caste dynamic" of Rajputs having H is simply evidence of what I said: Rajputs, Gujjars, Jats etc are simply "empowered" Adivasis, whom the Hunnic influence so facilitated.

However, a group dominated by Y-DNA L1a2, R1a1a and Q with notable J is certainly not of Adivasi origins. Especially, when the minority haplogroups consist of E, G, I, T, etc. and not just H.

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 01:34 PM
H is found among Jatts. I believe even the Mahal paper referenced it as one of the minority haplogroups outside of L, R and Q. It's just a very low % (lower than 10%). I even found a single individual Bains who is O, which is probably found in less than 1-2% of Jatts.

H is even found in small amounts among Pashtuns and Tajiks so it's not surprising to find it among Jatts too.

Probably, in antiquity, it populated lands further North and West of what is now Afghanistan. It kept getting diminished with new migrations or assimilation(elite dominance) over the course of time.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-09-2018, 01:34 PM
Is it altogether absent from those samples? As MonkeyDLuffy mentions, it is prevalent among Jatts too, and among many Kashmiris, including Pandits, besides Rajputs of the Indic Himalayan belt. And I know of one instance in Chitral, albeit with very high NE, West Asia, & Caucasian autosomal admixtures, and this gentleman has about 18% SI, and virtually 0 SEA, if you go by the Harappaworld model on Gedmatch. His NEE is, I think, about 22%.

Just to clarify again, I said it's minority. We've only seen 1-2 samples with it so far.

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 01:38 PM
Just to clarify again, I said it's minority. We've only seen 1-2 samples with it so far.

Minority, yeah, indeed, however it has been found, statistically significant nevertheless.

Saad2016
09-09-2018, 01:46 PM
What is his explanation for the presence of R1a1a, J2, L-M357, R2 and Q, and lack of H yDNA among Jatts?

Lets no draw conclusions based on personal perceptions. Please review the study below
:
https://i.gyazo.com/3d835f599d9c2328c60af52771c2d8b7.png
https://i.gyazo.com/2f0785fd7e39d9c0241a01881ee8425b.png

Source : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

The Jats represent a large ethnic community that has inhabited the northwest region of India and Pakistan for several thousand years. It is estimated the community has a population of over 123 million people. Many historians and academics have asserted that the Jats are descendants of Aryans, Scythians, or other ancient people that arrived and lived in northern India at one time. Essentially, the specific origin of these people has remained a matter of contention for a long time. This study demonstrated that the origins of Jats can be clarified by identifying their Y-chromosome haplogroups and tracing their genetic markers on the Y-DNA haplogroup tree. A sample of 302 Y-chromosome haplotypes of Jats in India and Pakistan was analyzed. The results showed that the sample population had several different lines of ancestry and emerged from at least nine different geographical regions of the world. It also became evident that the Jats did not have a unique set of genes, but shared an underlying genetic unity with several other ethnic communities in the Indian subcontinent. A startling new assessment of the genetic ancient origins of these people was revealed with DNA science.

Caution :
These type of studies are based on sample size. Imagine a small sample of just 302 people for a population of 123 million jatts? How decisive would that be ? plus it also depends on where you collected these samples from. The uncertainty in these type of studies is more than 80 percent. So please do not start believing in these as religious doctrines.

Saad2016
09-09-2018, 01:53 PM
Let me give you guys an example. I have a class of 10 students. Out of these 10 :

2 are Chinese
1 is Pakistani
3 are Indians
4 are americans

Now based on this study I start braging that " Majority of students in this world are Amercans @ 40 %. The truth of the matter is that a sample size of 10 stundents is too small and conclusions based on this small sample size will be unrealistic , far fetched and statistically absurd!

Saad2016
09-09-2018, 01:55 PM
on another note do u guys even know which villlages/which cities were included in these samples and which geographical areas were excluded? lets be scientific before we draw conclusions !

AmjadPak
09-09-2018, 02:37 PM
on another note do u guys even know which villlages/which cities were included in these samples and which geographical areas were excluded? lets be scientific before we draw conclusions !

Another factor that should be taken into account is what particular clans were the source of these samples. What if they take sample from certain clans which are pretty small in numerical strength but are dominated by a particular haplogroup and therefore would inflate the overall frequency of a particular haplogroup among the sample. Also they have included Punjabi Jatts and Haryana/UP/Rajasthan bhayya Jaats in the same study which is again ridiculous since these are two distinct linguistic and cultural groups. A study about haplogroups of punjabi jatts must have been restricted to punjabi jatts only and bhayya jaats of haryana should not have been included in the same study.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-09-2018, 02:47 PM
Another factor that should be taken into account is what particular clans were the source of these samples. What if they take sample from certain clans which are pretty small in numerical strength but are dominated by a particular haplogroup and therefore would inflate the overall frequency of a particular haplogroup among the sample. Also they have included Punjabi Jatts and Haryana/UP/Rajasthan bhayya Jaats in the same study which is again ridiculous since these are two distinct linguistic and cultural groups. A study about haplogroups of punjabi jatts must have been restricted to punjabi jatts only and bhayya jaats of haryana should not have been included in the same study.

Haryana jats are anything but bhayya, they're more related to seriki or rajasthani people culturally than Biharis. Not to mention Bhaiya is a derogatory term used for Mohajirs and central Indians.

purohit
09-09-2018, 02:54 PM
Yeah I agree. Since desi bhaiya jaats are less south Indian shifted than mulki jutts.

AmjadPak
09-09-2018, 03:21 PM
Haryana jats are anything but bhayya, they're more related to seriki or rajasthani people culturally than Biharis. Not to mention Bhaiya is a derogatory term used for Mohajirs and central Indians.

Anyone who speaks Bhayya language as their mother language are called Bhayya and that includeds all castes of bhayyas whether rajput, Jaat, meo, siddiqi, farooqi, mirza, baig etc. There are many bhayya jaat muslim immigrants from Rohtak haryana settled in Multan and yes they are considered the same as other bhayya muhajirs. There is nothing similar between them and Saraikis and Punjabis, and I don't know a single case where a Punjabi/Saraiki speaking muslim jatt ever married into these bhayya jaats of rohtak haryana, totally different language and totally different culture and manners.

Reza
09-09-2018, 03:32 PM
Amjad, can you clarify what you mean a by Bhayya language and Bhayya people?

If it is indeed a derogatory term for non local, muhajir immigrants, I would advise you to refrain from using that term as per the forum terms of service.

bol_nat
09-09-2018, 03:58 PM
We shouldn't really make a guess that they are Mistri Tarkhan unless it is verified from the Kitholders, they could be urdu speaking muhajirs migrated from india as I have noticed that many urdu speaking Muhajirs also tend to have surnames such as Mirza and particularly Baig which is very rare among Punjabi Mistri Tarkhans who predominantly use only Mughal as their surname, usually it is only some Punjabi Lohar people who tend to use Mirza or Baig as their surname. But Monkeydluffy was saying that in indian Punjab Mistri/Tarkhan is quite distinct from Lohar community and no intermarriage takes place between them.

It seem like some of these Baigs are in Khanabadoshi spreadsheet under punjab section, exact same results. Maybe Khana know about them.

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 04:34 PM
H is found among Jatts. I believe even the Mahal paper referenced it as one of the minority haplogroups outside of L, R, Q and J. It's just a very low % (lower than 10%). I even found a single individual Bains who is O, which is probably found in less than 1-2% of Jatts.

H is even found in small amounts among Pashtuns and Tajiks so it's not surprising to find it among Jatts too. Due to a founder effect, the Kalash are over 20% H.



However, a group dominated by Y-DNA L1a2, R1a1a and Q is certainly not of Adivasi origins. Especially, when the minority haplogroups consist of E, G, I, T, etc. and not just H.

No, the context was Rajput lineages, however same holds true for other groups, albeit in small measures. And that is why I dont attach much importance to these mythical claims, embedded deep into the psyche of the indic people, much for the religion
If you ask me, Khatris are probably most likely the IA Kshatriyas, of the RV period. Rajputs of the Northwest too, such as the Janjuas and the Minhas/Dogras.

bol_nat
09-09-2018, 04:39 PM
They all are in line with the sikh tarkhan results I've except one. See they follow the same trend, high siberian and NE asian. Makes me wonder if we legit received some east turkic like mix. Is it possible if you can post their halogroups? I've seen R2, J2/J1, T, and L popping more for Tarkhans. There are 2 C as well which is east asian in origin.

Mughal in Jhelum and Pindi district may not mean Tarkhan. Majority of people who identified as mughal in punjab in old census lived in potohar, around 44000. Though it doesn't seem like mughals in potohar score any higher ne asian/siberian like ancestry. My guess is these were all who were recruited by or worked for Mughals and started to claim same origins or adopt surname. Kiyanis in Pindi/Jhelum who also have much less population compared to potohari rajputs claim turko-persian origins.

Basically it looks like mughals in potohar were ruling caste and seem to be big deal.

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 05:26 PM
Another factor that should be taken into account is what particular clans were the source of these samples. What if they take sample from certain clans which are pretty small in numerical strength but are dominated by a particular haplogroup and therefore would inflate the overall frequency of a particular haplogroup among the sample. Also they have included Punjabi Jatts and Haryana/UP/Rajasthan bhayya Jaats in the same study which is again ridiculous since these are two distinct linguistic and cultural groups. A study about haplogroups of punjabi jatts must have been restricted to punjabi jatts only and bhayya jaats of haryana should not have been included in the same study.
Apt observation. I live among them, they are anything but Punjabi!

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 05:27 PM
Mughal in Jhelum and Pindi district may not mean Tarkhan. Majority of people who identified as mughal in punjab in old census lived in potohar, around 44000. Though it doesn't seem like mughals in potohar score any higher ne asian/siberian like ancestry. My guess is these were all who were recruited by or worked for Mughals and started to claim same origins or adopt surname. Kiyanis in Pindi/Jhelum who also have much less population compared to potohari rajputs claim turko-persian origins.

Basically it looks like mughals in potohar were ruling caste and seem to be big deal.

I know a few Mughals, from Potohar. Ayaz Amir, the columnist is one!

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 05:30 PM
Anyone who speaks Bhayya language as their mother language are called Bhayya and that includeds all castes of bhayyas whether rajput, Jaat, meo, siddiqi, farooqi, mirza, baig etc. There are many bhayya jaat muslim immigrants from Rohtak haryana settled in Multan and yes they are considered the same as other bhayya muhajirs. There is nothing similar between them and Saraikis and Punjabis, and I don't know a single case where a Punjabi/Saraiki speaking muslim jatt ever married into these bhayya jaats of rohtak haryana, totally different language and totally different culture and manners.

Again, having observed them from close quarters, agree with your observation. On top of that, their religious observances make them quite a lot alien to an average Punjabi.

bol_nat
09-09-2018, 05:54 PM
I know a few Mughals, from Potohar. Ayaz Amir, the columnist is one!

Seen him on tv but didn't know he was mughal lol

Sapporo
09-10-2018, 11:45 AM
Caution :
These type of studies are based on sample size. Imagine a small sample of just 302 people for a population of 123 million jatts? How decisive would that be ? plus it also depends on where you collected these samples from. The uncertainty in these type of studies is more than 80 percent. So please do not start believing in these as religious doctrines.

I don't believe you are very familiar with formal statistics or sampling are you? Per the quote below, the paper is about 90 more individuals off from being "generally representative of a population of one million, or more." The only issue is the representation of Muslim Jatts.

From the paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/


Sample size
In statistical analyses, as the population increases in size, the sample size increases at a diminishing rate, and remains relatively constant when it reaches a size of 380 or more. At about 384, the sample is generally representative for a population of one million, or more (Krejcie and Morgan, 1970). Ideally, the sample size should be 380, and preferably larger.

The dataset of 302 Jats used in our research represents a margin of error of 5.7% at a confidence level of 95%. In other words, if a survey is conducted one hundred times among a similar group of people (i.e., 302 × 100; 32,000 people in total), the distribution in haplogroups is expected to be about the same as in this study, with a margin of error of plus or minus 5.7%.

Although the sample of 302 records used in this research revealed key haplogroups for the Jats, the results are not representative of this entire ethnic group of an estimated 123 million people. It is already noted that the Muslim Jats of Pakistan were underrepresented in this study. A larger sample of Muslim Jats is likely to reveal a few additional haplogroups and provide a more complete picture. Therefore, to ascertain a representative distribution of haplogroups for the entire ethnic group of the Jats, the sample size should be at least 380, with a proportional representation of Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims.

The paper essentially admits that the study does not provide a complete picture due to undersampling of Muslim Jatts of Pakistan. However, based on the sampling of 294 Hindu and Sikh Jatts per the quote below, it should be fairly representative for them. It's not exact but the L and R Y-DNA numbers from the paper aren't very far off from the Jatt Y-DNA I've collected myself in the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?pli=1#gid=0



Datasets
Two separate datasets were created for this study, one representing the Jat population, and one representing 38 other ethnic groups of the Indian subcontinent for comparison purposes.

For the Jat population, a dataset of 302 men was compiled consisting of 44 records from the Genographic Project database (Genographic, 2016), with permission of the National Geographic Society, and 258 records from published sources (Henke et al., 2001; Nagy et al., 2007). The haplogroups in the Genographic Project database were already predetermined at source, based on examination of SNPs in the lab with actual Y-DNA samples. The records from published sources contained haplotypes with nine to twelve Y-STR loci (DYS19, DYS385a, DYS385b, DYS389-1, DYS389-2, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, and DYS439) on the Y-chromosome. The haplogroups for these 258 records were identified by processing their haplotypes in the Haplogroup Predictor software. Only the predominant top-level haplogroups were identified (the subclades or subhaplogroups were not used). All haplogroups from the Genographic Project database and published sources were merged and sorted in Excel. This dataset of 302 records represented 294 Jats from India and eight from Pakistan. The Muslim Jats were under represented in the sample.

As I noted previously and above, the paper and data should be fairly representative for Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jats but not for Muslim Jatts due to poor sampling. However, I should also note that Muslim Jatts of Pakistan may be differentiated from one another based on region. Central Punjab Jatts of Pakistan should be quite similar to Jatt Sikhs but Pahari Jatts and Seraiki Jatts may be a bit different. For example, quite a few Pahari Jatt clans/gotras are very unfamiliar to me and don't seem to overlap with us.

AmjadPak
09-10-2018, 01:49 PM
As I noted previously and above, the paper and data should be fairly representative for Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jats but not for Muslim Jatts due to poor sampling. However, I should also note that Muslim Jatts of Pakistan may be differentiated from one another based on region. Central Punjab Jatts of Pakistan should be quite similar to Jatt Sikhs but Pahari Jatts and Seraiki Jatts may be a bit different. For example, quite a few Pahari Jatt clans/gotras are very unfamiliar to me and don't seem to overlap with us.

Again a wild guess from you, the central Punjab Jatts are predominantly related to Jangli and Pahari Jatts, many linguistic and cultural features including dances like Luddi and Sammi in greater Gujranwala/Sialkot region are shared with Pahari Jatts and Jangli tribes further west in Rachna doab and other castes from Pothohar, many major Jatt clans of Gujranwala/Sialkot are quite distinct and localized to this region like Malhi, Cheema, Chatha, Warraich, Virk, Tarar, Gondal, Bajwa etc. since ancient times. I know there are many Cheema, Bajwa, Virk, Warraich etc. present now in indian Punjab also but they are more or less all immigrants from after 1947 and some even before that when they got themselves allied with Sikh jatts of Amritsar in the past due to common religion. We do have typical indian clans also represented in Gujrawala/Sialkot/Sheikhupura region like Sandhu, Gill, Dhillon, Sidhu, Baryar/Baryal etc. but they are pretty insignificant in numbers and some individuals showing Sikh jatt like admixture might be because those individuals have a family history of mixing with these Amritsar derived jatt clans.

Also photogenically the vast majority of Jatts from Gujranwala/Sialkot region share far more with Janglis in west of Rachna doab and Pothoharis and people of Azad Kashmir than they share with sikh Jatts east of Ravi. They tend to have leaner body structures like Janglis/Pothoharis and you don't find heavy sturdy sikh jatt type phenotypes with round broader faces (like Navjot Sidhu or Diljit Dosanjh) among them and if they are there they are possibly brought by Sandhu, Dhillon, Gill, Sidhu, Baryar type of clans etc who have origins east of Ravi before settling in Rechna doab during Sikh empire times.

bored
09-10-2018, 03:12 PM
Again a wild guess from you, the central Punjab Jatts are predominantly related to Jangli and Pahari Jatts, many linguistic and cultural features including dances like Luddi and Sammi in greater Gujranwala/Sialkot region are shared with Pahari Jatts and Jangli tribes further west in Rachna doab and other castes from Pothohar, many major Jatt clans of Gujranwala/Sialkot are quite distinct and localized to this region like Malhi, Cheema, Chatha, Warraich, Virk, Tarar, Gondal, Bajwa etc. since ancient times. I know there are many Cheema, Bajwa, Virk, Warraich etc. present now in indian Punjab also but they are more or less all immigrants from after 1947 and some even before that when they got themselves allied with Sikh jatts of Amritsar in the past due to common religion. We do have typical indian clans also represented in Gujrawala/Sialkot/Sheikhupura region like Sandhu, Gill, Dhillon, Sidhu, Baryar/Baryal etc. but they are pretty insignificant in numbers and some individuals showing Sikh jatt like admixture might be because those individuals have a family history of mixing with these Amritsar derived jatt clans.

Also photogenically the vast majority of Jatts from Gujranwala/Sialkot region share far more with Janglis in west of Rachna doab and Pothoharis and people of Azad Kashmir than they share with sikh Jatts east of Ravi. They tend to have leaner body structures like Janglis/Pothoharis and you don't find heavy sturdy sikh jatt type phenotypes with round broader faces (like Navjot Sidhu or Diljit Dosanjh) among them and if they are there they are possibly brought by Sandhu, Dhillon, Gill, Sidhu, Baryar type of clans etc who have origins east of Ravi before settling in Rechna doab during Sikh empire times.

Leanness has a big dietary/environmental component. It can't just be boiled down to genetics

Sapporo
09-10-2018, 03:37 PM
Again a wild guess from you, the central Punjab Jatts are predominantly related to Jangli and Pahari Jatts, many linguistic and cultural features including dances like Luddi and Sammi in greater Gujranwala/Sialkot region are shared with Pahari Jatts and Jangli tribes further west in Rachna doab and other castes from Pothohar, many major Jatt clans of Gujranwala/Sialkot are quite distinct and localized to this region like Malhi, Cheema, Chatha, Warraich, Virk, Tarar, Gondal, Bajwa etc. since ancient times. I know there are many Cheema, Bajwa, Virk, Warraich etc. present now in indian Punjab also but they are more or less all immigrants from after 1947 and some even before that when they got themselves allied with Sikh jatts of Amritsar in the past due to common religion. We do have typical indian clans also represented in Gujrawala/Sialkot/Sheikhupura region like Sandhu, Gill, Dhillon, Sidhu, Baryar/Baryal etc. but they are pretty insignificant in numbers and some individuals showing Sikh jatt like admixture might be because those individuals have a family history of mixing with these Amritsar derived jatt clans.

Also photogenically the vast majority of Jatts from Gujranwala/Sialkot region share far more with Janglis in west of Rachna doab and Pothoharis and people of Azad Kashmir than they share with sikh Jatts east of Ravi. They tend to have leaner body structures like Janglis/Pothoharis and you don't find heavy sturdy sikh jatt type phenotypes with round broader faces (like Navjot Sidhu or Diljit Dosanjh) among them and if they are there they are possibly brought by Sandhu, Dhillon, Gill, Sidhu, Baryar type of clans etc who have origins east of Ravi before settling in Rechna doab during Sikh empire times.

What's your evidence Central Punjab Jatts are all related to Pahari Jatts? And whom are you referring to with Jangli as the Jhang region is quite close to Central Punjab (Faisalabad and Lahore). As far as I'm aware that's Punjabi speaking and not Seraiki. Also, Gujranwala and Sialkot are on the edge of Central Punjab and Pahari areas. Of course, they would have some similarities culturally and likely clan wise as well. Of those clans you listed, Malhi, Cheema, Warraich, Virk, Tarar, Chatha and Bajwa are all found among Jatt Sikhs. I am part Virk and Warraich (Baraich) myself with zero ancestry from Pakistan including prior to partition. Lastly, Gondal is a Pahari Jatt clan from what I know and it is not found among Jatt Sikhs. Another Pahari Jatt clan I'm aware of is Langrial, which I've never seen among Sikhs. I'm not 100% certain but I also believe many Pahari Jatt clans overlap notably with Pahari Rajputs so depending on the region and village, one could be a Jatt or Rajput.

Where is your proof that Sikh Cheema, Bajwa, Virk, Warraich, etc. are migrants to Indian Punjab? You have quite the nerve suggesting that without any evidence to back it up. Is this hearsay or is there some historical documentation nothing the migration of specific clans that I'm not aware of?

Also, I actually have the kit no. for a Muslim Pakistani Punjabi Jatt (Bajwa) who is a migrant from East Punjab to Pakistan. He scores like a Jatt Sikh. There is another forum member (Zuran) who is a Pakistani Punjabi Jatt Muslim but a recent convert from Sikhs ancestrally and also scores like Jatt Sikhs. I believe he is part Baryar and he is from Gujranwala.

Now, you've gone on some pheontype tangent? Are you even a Central Punjab Jatt to be speaking like an expert on this? I trust someone like Zuran with his knowledge on Central Punjabi Pakistani Jatts far more than an outsider like you. bol_nat is a Pahari Jatt and previously suggested that Central Punjab Pakistani Jatt Muslims would overlap the most autosomally with Jatt Sikhs.

AmjadPak
09-10-2018, 04:06 PM
What's your evidence Central Punjab Jatts are all related to Pahari Jatts? And whom are you referring to with Jangli as the Jhang region is quite close to Central Punjab (Faisalabad and Lahore). As far as I'm aware that's Punjabi speaking and not Seraiki. Also, Gujranwala and Sialkot are on the edge of Central Punjab and Pahari areas. Of course, they would have some similarities culturally and likely clan wise as well. Of those clans you listed, Malhi, Cheema, Warraich, Virk, Tarar, Chatha and Bajwa are all found among Jatt Sikhs. I am part Virk and Warraich (Baraich) myself with zero ancestry from Pakistan including prior to partition. Lastly, Gondal is a Pahari Jatt clan from what I know and it is not found among Jatt Sikhs. Another Pahari Jatt clan I'm aware of is Langrial, which I've never seen among Sikhs. I'm not 100% certain but I also believe many Pahari Jatt clans overlap notably with Pahari Rajputs so depending on the region and village, one could be a Jatt or Rajput.

Where is your proof that Sikh Cheema, Bajwa, Virk, Warraich, etc. are migrants to Indian Punjab? You have quite the nerve suggesting that without any evidence to back it up. Is this hearsay or is there some historical documentation nothing the migration of specific clans that I'm not aware of?

Also, I actually have the kit no. for a Muslim Pakistani Punjabi Jatt (Bajwa) who is a migrant from East Punjab to Pakistan. He scores like a Jatt Sikh. There is another forum member (Zuran) who is a Pakistani Punjabi Jatt Muslim but a recent convert from Sikhs ancestrally and also scores like Jatt Sikhs. I believe he is part Baryar and he is from Gujranwala.

Now, you've gone on some pheontype tangent? Are you even a Central Punjab Jatt to be speaking like an expert on this? I trust someone like Zuran with his knowledge on Central Punjabi Pakistani Jatts far more than an outsider like you. bol_nat is a Pahari Jatt and previously suggested that Central Punjab Pakistani Jatt Muslims would overlap the most autosomally with Jatt Sikhs.

Yes I am outsider and your are an "insider" as far as knowledge of Pakistani central Punjab is concerned, I can confirm that Bol-Nat is a pure Pakistani member here and has a good knowledge of his area Kharian which is northern most tehsil of Gujrat distirct. About Zuran I am not sure whether he is real or "fill in the blanks", he doesn't sound one from his post history. Another guy who is pure Pakistani on this forum is with name "Saad". Then there are other pure Pakistani members from Azad Kashmir like that "Noman" guy and "Vintage" or something.

Here is a video of Sikh Virk old man (98 years old now) from india, I don't know if you even understand the punjabi language or not but if you can then just go through the whole video, the old Virk guy is claiming that Virk are originally from a royal family of Jammu who came down to Gujranwala together with their kins "Dogar", Virk got assimilated with Jatts but their kins "Dogar" kept their independent identity alive till this day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x_wUKzvVOk

Warraich from India a migrant from kot shah Muhammad Wazirabad area,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRxQcwz4g5k

Warraich from India a migrant from Dhulle village Gujranwala,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7XVrg41cJI

Warraich from India a migrant from Rahwali Gujranwala district,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EleCOZvg0Xg


Warraich original abode is north of Chenab in Gujrat district where they are by far the largest Jatt clan, our famous politicians Chaudry pervez elahi and Chaudry shujaat hussain are Warraich from Gujrat district. Almost all Warraich families now settled in Gujrawala (source of Warraichs of India) and Sialkot areas trace their ancestry from Warraichs of Gujrat which was and has been the abode of Warraichs since ancient times.

For proof here is a video interview of Muslim Warraich Jatts from a villiage in Pasroor district Sialkot who explcity tell the interviewer that Warraich have originally come from Gujrat district north of chenab and they had Sikh Warraichs in their village who migrated to India in 1947,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAB8yyjfZ8E

Sapporo
09-10-2018, 04:21 PM
Yes I am outsider and your are an "insider" as far as knowledge of Pakistani central Punjab is concerned, I can confirm that Bol-Nat is a pure Pakistani member here and has a good knowledge of his area Kharian which is northern most tehsil of Gujrat distirct. About Zuran I am not sure whether he is real or "fill in the blanks", he doesn't sound one from his post history. Another guy who is pure Pakistani on this forum is with name "Saad".

Oh, Zuran isn't real since he isn't a hardcore or at least semi Pakistani nationalist? Way, to let out your true colors.




Here is a video of Sikh Virk old man (98 years old now) from india, I don't know if you even understand the punjabi language or not but if you can then just go through the whole video, the old Virk guy is claiming that Virk are originally from Jammu who came down to Gujranwala together with their kins "Dogar", Virk got assimilated with Jatts but their kins "Dogar" kept their independent identity alive till this day.

Oh, thank you for your concern. It's quite courteous from an individual of a country, which the elite of Punjab openly look down upon Punjabi. Perhaps, you should go talk to some multi generational Pakistani Punjabi migrats in the West and see what language they speak at home. This is one single individual and I can't believe you would actually place the origin of Virks on what is passed down from a single old baba. Perhaps, it's true his family is from Jammu but that does not mean all Virk are. I am part Virk and no Jatt Sikh Virks I'm acquainted with claim a Jammu origin.




Warraich from India a migrant from Rahwali Gujranwala district,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EleCOZvg0Xg
Warraich from India a migrant from Dhulle village Gujranwala,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7XVrg41cJI



Again, Warraich is a massive Jatt clan. Mere individual families do not speak for thousands and thousands of people.



Warraich original abode is north of Chenab in Gujrat district where they are by far the largest Jatt clan, our famous politicians Chaudry pervez elahi and Chaudry shujaat hussain are Warraich from Gujrat district. Almost all Warraich families now settled in Gujrawala (source of Warraichs of India) and Sialkot areas trace their ancestry from Warraichs of Gujrat which was and has been the abode of Warraichs since ancient times.
Where are your historical sources and documentation for this? Do you realize how massive of a clan Warraich is? Many Sikh and Hindu Jatts also spell it as Baraich or Varaich (though we also use Warraich) including those in Haryana/Rajasthan, which you called Bhayya only a page ago.



For proof here is a video interview of Muslim Warraich Jatts from a villiage in Pasroor district Sialkot who explcity tell the interviewer that Warraich have originally come from Gujrat district north of chenab and they had Sikh Warraichs in their village who migrated to India in 1947,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAB8yyjfZ8E
Only a fool would believe this is definitive evidence of anything. Do you have a few hundred Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jats of Warraich/Baraich/Varaich origin to corroborate this? Why should we trust a few Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Warraich Jats and a few confirmed Jatt Sikh Warraich migrants to corroborate the history of all Warraich/Baraich/Varaich? Just because some Jatt Sikh Warraich migrated to Indian Punjab does not mean that speaks for all of them.

A few Youtube videos are not formal documentation and statistics. It's cherrypicking.

bol_nat
09-10-2018, 05:04 PM
Don't get me wrong but I don't think Rajasthani "jits" as its pronounced there have much relation with punjab ones. Just found list of rajasthani jat clans

https://www.jatland.com/home/Rajasthan

99% don't sound familiar to me. Yes there is small clan of "birk" but it will be far fetched by jatland to suggest its same as virks. Just like there is rajasthani jat chopra clan and it will be ridiculous to suggest they are same as Khatri chopras. Jatland has been putting all those sindh baloch tribes under jat section and that always used to confuse me few years ago.

AmjadPak
09-10-2018, 05:17 PM
Oh, Zuran isn't real since he isn't a hardcore or at least semi Pakistani nationalist? Way, to let out your true colors.

Oh, thank you for your concern. It's quite courteous from an individual of a country, which the elite of Punjab openly look down upon Punjabi. Perhaps, you should go talk to some multi generational Pakistani Punjabi migrats in the West and see what language they speak at home. This is one single individual and I can't believe you would actually place the origin of Virks on what is passed down from a single old baba. Perhaps, it's true his family is from Jammu but that does not mean all Virk are. I am part Virk and no Jatt Sikh Virks I'm acquainted with claim a Jammu origin.



If you don't believe the Virk Sikh Jatt old man, a migrant from Gujranwala talking about a Jammu Rajput origin to Virks, then here is a documented referrence about the Jammu Rajput origin of Virks and Dogar (originally Drigar),

This is book,
Titel Memorandum on Sikhs. MS notes
Autor R. T. CROWTHER
Original von British Library
Digitalisiert 23. Nov. 2016
Länge 55 Seiten

Here is excerpt from the book about the Jammu Rajput orign of Virks,

25802


And here is excerpt from the same book about Gujrat being the abode and original homeland of all Warraich Jatts,

25803


People shouldn't really be surprised when I say that vast majority of Jatts in Gujranwala/Sialkot region tend to have leaner body structures similar to Janglis and Pothohari in the north because that is from where the major Jatt clans of this region have actually originated. This is quite different from Sikh Jatts east of Ravi who predominantly tend to have sturdy/stocky body structure with braod rounder faces (like Navjot Sidhu, Diljit Dosanjh etc.).

jb24
09-10-2018, 06:40 PM
Again a wild guess from you, the central Punjab Jatts are predominantly related to Jangli and Pahari Jatts, many...………... family history of mixing with these Amritsar derived jatt clans.

Also photogenically the vast majority of Jatts from Gujranwala/Sialkot region share far more with Janglis in west of Rachna doab and Pothoharis and people of Azad Kashmir than they share with sikh Jatts east of Ravi. They tend to have leaner body structures like Janglis/Pothoharis and you don't find heavy sturdy sikh jatt type phenotypes with round broader faces (like Navjot Sidhu or Diljit Dosanjh) among them and if they are there they are possibly brought by Sandhu, Dhillon, Gill, Sidhu, Baryar type of clans etc who have origins east of Ravi before settling in Rechna doab during Sikh empire times.


If you don't believe the Virk Sikh Jatt old man, a migrant from Gujranwala talking about a Jammu Rajput origin to Virks, then here is a documented referrence about the Jammu Rajput origin of Virks and Dogar (originally Drigar),

This is book,
Titel Memorandum on Sikhs. MS notes
Autor R. T. CROWTHER
Original von British Library
Digitalisiert 23. Nov. 2016
Länge 55 Seiten

…………..

People shouldn't really be surprised when I say that vast majority of Jatts in Gujranwala/Sialkot region tend to have leaner body structures similar to Janglis and Pothohari in the north because that is from where the major Jatt clans of this region have actually originated. This is quite different from Sikh Jatts east of Ravi who predominantly tend to have sturdy/stocky body structure with braod rounder faces (like Navjot Sidhu, Diljit Dosanjh etc.).

https://images.news18.com/ibnlive/uploads/2013/04/navjotsiddhu.jpg

prashantvaidwan
09-10-2018, 07:14 PM
http://siddham.uk/inscription/in00108
Bijaygarh inscription of 4th century about varika clan. Even before this, varikas were ruling in central asia as associates of kushanas. virks are so old that even the term "rajputra" was coined to use as a title after four century of this inscription. And ironically, this title of "rajputra" was first used by a Buddhist ruler Harshvardhan Bains of thanesar (Haryana) and surprisingly even today thanesar is surrounded by couple of villages of Bains jatts.
All these bard stories fabricated in last 3-4 centuries are madness of few royals who rose to prominence from a humble background.
I would like to see any historical document older than last 4 centuries stating any clan of northwest as "Rajput".
There are plenty of clans of northwest, mentioned in Mahabharata , are firmly associated only with Jatt brotherhood at present. Malhi, a major clan of jatts, fought against alexander before the time of Christ. I hardly see such a connection with antiquity in the clans of others.

prashantvaidwan
09-10-2018, 07:45 PM
For that bhayya people and bhayya language in Haryana/West up jats (not jaats), a Punjabi speaker is supposed to understand the rural Haryanvi more than an East up Hindi speaker.. lol.. yes, we are distinct from Sikh jatts linguistically but still we are close to Sikh jatts in comparison of pure Hindi speakers. still you don't agree, i don't have any problem if associated with anyone in my country. Afterall, they are my countrymen.

I don't think punjabiyat is intact in West punjab, it is gradually being crushed day by day since independence.
Despite being from different religions, clans exogamy in marriages , worshipping jatheras, many overlapping clans and others similarities make jatts of East Punjab and Haryana as inseparable kins. Mahal who conducted the DNA study was itself a Jatt and he clubbed all the jatts together. Most of the jatts irrespective of religions have no problem in being clubbed togther. I don't know why others are in pain.

Rahuls77
09-10-2018, 08:48 PM
I really doubt if Mahabharata contains any real significance for a reading of the history, of an account of the times, or for that matter even the Rajtarangini. But then these are accepted for the lack of any credible account of the period. I'd not risk trusting a piece of fiction for inferring any historical account.

As far as Punjabi is concerned, the elite from a couple of generations ago, especially the Urdu-speakers, has certainly ignored it and the modern popular culture shown indifference towards it, and the new generation may not be conversing in Punjabi dialects of their roots, compared to their usage of Urdu of English, mostly in the cities, however the rural Punjab(Pakistani) remains as rooted and conversant in its natural mother tongue, at least so has been my experience in my interactions with the Pakistanis. While those who speak Punjabi are derided as Paindus or Patwaris, for their political orientation, just how better is the condition of Indian Punjab? I say its far worse, the society and the attitudes of the many upper middle class exhibiting eilitism and caricatures of wannabe elites, looking down upon those economically not as well off as themselves. In fact Pakistanis tend to have no airs of arrogance, which Indian Punjabis have become 'educated' with, given their fascination with an India that is no more a country than a doll fashioned in the anglo model. Its not as if Pakistani Punjabi elite are all super-generous, however they are more open and secure in their interactions with people across social divisions. Such openness and friendliness was also the nature of the Punjabis on the Indian side until a few years after the partition. The genuine earthiness is drying, and many of the Punjabis, especially the Sikhs, on this Eastern divide tend to agree with what I have observed. The Punjabi language is still alive, even if it is somewhat discriminated against, in Pakistan, and my friends, including a few Karachi walas, one of them is a Gujrati Ismaili(he teaches in Islamabad and Lahore) and the other a Mohajir Pathan(married into a Punjabi Butt family from Lahore) from pre-partition roots in Meerut, speak fluent Punjabi. The Urdu dominance can be explained by the challenges which Pakistan faced upon its birth, given its linguistic diversity, and it needed a holding glue, which required a bit sacrifice from the Punjabis, that Indians, us, taunt them as an act of betrayal. The real Punjabiyat died sooner in India than it did in Pakistan, where it survives, their sense of hospitality, the love and the feeling of our common humanity you feel when you mingle with them. While we are deeply insecure when a Cricketer Politician from the Indian Punjab hugs the Pakistani lArmy chief!
The Pakistani Punjabi is still an open-minded soul, regardless all the stories of religious bigotry we hear and read of, that soul lives on! And I doubt if in India we stand much of a chance!

Rahuls77
09-10-2018, 08:55 PM
I suggest 'Indian' Punjabis on the forum read Prof Ishtiaq Ahmed or Amardeep Singh, who has published two travelogues, of his visit to Pakistan with unrestricted access to the many monuments of Sikh interest, across Pakistan, from Balochistan to GB, from Sindh to the Khyber!
Its NOT an account of a singular sense of victim hood, it discovers what immense love and respect remained, what feelings still exist among the Pakistani, and NOT just the Punjabi, the Pashtun, the Sindhi, the Baloch even, and it does not forget the violence at the Domel in Muzaffarabad, at Thoha Khalsa in Kahuta, in several hamlets across the burning Punjab.

pegasus
09-10-2018, 09:24 PM
http://siddham.uk/inscription/in00108
Bijaygarh inscription of 4th century about varika clan. Even before this, varikas were ruling in central asia as associates of kushanas. virks are so old that even the term "rajputra" was coined to use as a title after four century of this inscription. And ironically, this title of "rajputra" was first used by a Buddhist ruler Harshvardhan Bains of thanesar (Haryana) and surprisingly even today thanesar is surrounded by couple of villages of Bains jatts.
All these bard stories fabricated in last 3-4 centuries are madness of few royals who rose to prominence from a humble background.
I would like to see any historical document older than last 4 centuries stating any clan of northwest as "Rajput".
There are plenty of clans of northwest, mentioned in Mahabharata , are firmly associated only with Jatt brotherhood at present. Malhi, a major clan of jatts, fought against alexander before the time of Christ. I hardly see such a connection with antiquity in the clans of others.


Thats not true at all. The Mahabharata is an Iron age to Antiquity recanting of an event which took place either in the Iron Age or Bronze Age, its extremely unlikely your going to have Jats in it since well for the simple reason they were not in existence then. In fact some of the tribes listed in the Mahabharat are groups which exist in Antiquity but not in the Iron or Bronze Age, which makes sense since the writers of it lived during early Antiquity.

poi
09-10-2018, 09:32 PM
Thats not true at all. The Mahabharata is an Iron age to Antiquity recanting of an event which took place either in the Iron Age or Bronze Age, its extremely unlikely your going to have Jats in it since well for the simple reason they were not in existence then. In fact some of the tribes listed in the Mahabharat are groups which exist in Antiquity but not in the Iron or Bronze Age, which makes sense since the writers of it lived during early Antiquity.

This might be obvious to others, but what's "antiquity" in this context?

pegasus
09-10-2018, 09:36 PM
This might be obvious to others, but what's "antiquity" in this context?

Post 300 BC to 550 CE in S/SC Asia,

bored
09-10-2018, 10:44 PM
As an aside, lean and mean is the way to go. Girls love it, especially that lean face.

poi
09-10-2018, 11:07 PM
As an aside, lean and mean is the way to go. Girls love it, especially that lean face.

Your jawline makes everyone (except clark kent) look like a wuss.

bored
09-10-2018, 11:18 PM
Your jawline makes everyone (except clark kent) look like a wuss.

Thanks bro.

People of J&K have good facial bone structure imo. See Vidyut Jamwal.

pegasus
09-11-2018, 02:10 AM
Thanks bro.

People of J&K have good facial bone structure imo. See Vidyut Jamwal.

Thats true, squared jaw lines are quite common.

prashantvaidwan
09-11-2018, 03:23 AM
Thats not true at all. The Mahabharata is an Iron age to Antiquity recanting of an event which took place either in the Iron Age or Bronze Age, its extremely unlikely your going to have Jats in it since well for the simple reason they were not in existence then. In fact some of the tribes listed in the Mahabharat are groups which exist in Antiquity but not in the Iron or Bronze Age, which makes sense since the writers of it lived during early Antiquity.

Although there are claims of ancient jartas being modern Jatt and James Tod identifying "jit" Shalendra of sialkot in 4th century as Jatt based on an inscription but it has been contended
Anyway, I said that those ancient clans/tribes mentioned in old literatures are identified as jatts today. So probably they were independent clan/tribes in ancient times.

Sapporo
09-11-2018, 09:55 AM
Don't get me wrong but I don't think Rajasthani "jits" as its pronounced there have much relation with punjab ones. Just found list of rajasthani jat clans

https://www.jatland.com/home/Rajasthan

99% don't sound familiar to me. Yes there is small clan of "birk" but it will be far fetched by jatland to suggest its same as virks. Just like there is rajasthani jat chopra clan and it will be ridiculous to suggest they are same as Khatri chopras. Jatland has been putting all those sindh baloch tribes under jat section and that always used to confuse me few years ago.

I wouldn't trust jatland as a final source for anything. A few clan names used by Rajasthani Jatts I am familiar with are Sheoran, Ahlawat, Dahiya, Pannu, Beniwal & Choudhary. Prabha Choudhary from Rajasthan University is a Rajasthani Jatt. Among Jatt Sikhs, at least Pannu, Beniwal & Dahiya are found. Prashant may be more familiar with Rajasthani Jatt clans.

http://www.jatmahasabha.in/2011/08/prabha-choudhary-rajasthan-university.html

Anyways, Jatt Sikhs also use Birk. It's seen the same as Virk among us (just a variation in spelling). There is one on my haplogroup spreadsheet. She is my predicted 5th cousin on 23andMe and shares my mother's maternal line.



The real Punjabiyat died sooner in India than it did in Pakistan, where it survives, their sense of hospitality, the love and the feeling of our common humanity you feel when you mingle with them. While we are deeply insecure when a Cricketer Politician from the Indian Punjab hugs the Pakistani lArmy chief!
The Pakistani Punjabi is still an open-minded soul, regardless all the stories of religious bigotry we hear and read of, that soul lives on! And I doubt if in India we stand much of a chance!

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you are at all familiar with Sikhs and especially Jatt Sikhs, you should know that modern Sikhism today is very much just a variation of Punjabism. Jattism has influenced it as well but among Sikhs, Jattism is very much intertwined with Punjabism. Most of today's modern Punjabi music/popular culture industries are dominated by Sikhs as well. Especially, when considering that Muslim Punjabis outnumber us multiple times.

Sapporo
09-11-2018, 10:24 AM
If you don't believe the Virk Sikh Jatt old man, a migrant from Gujranwala talking about a Jammu Rajput origin to Virks, then here is a documented referrence about the Jammu Rajput origin of Virks and Dogar (originally Drigar),

This is book,
Titel Memorandum on Sikhs. MS notes
Autor R. T. CROWTHER
Original von British Library
Digitalisiert 23. Nov. 2016
Länge 55 Seiten

Here is excerpt from the book about the Jammu Rajput orign of Virks,

25802

This memorandum seems to be a collection of hearsay/folklore and hypothetical Rajput origins and migrations from modern Afghanistan. I wouldn't put too much weight on them. At least with regards to the Rajput origins, we can get some clarification depending on the autosomal and Y-DNA results of various Rajputs.




And here is excerpt from the same book about Gujrat being the abode and original homeland of all Warraich Jatts,

25803


Gujrat "appears" to have been their first home in Punjab. The book also notes they have spread into Gujranwala and down to Ludhiana and become widely distributed. Jatts aren't part of the varna system like other various biradaris and likely have at least partial origins north/northwest of the Indus so it's not surprising that certain clans may have settled in West Punjab first. Anyways, my point was that Warraich/Baraich/Varaich in East Punjab aren't all post partition migrants. Many of us have been settled here for quite some time.

The Surajbansi Rajput origin and Ghazni migration I have many doubts about. My paternal clan also supposedly has a Rajput origin along with many other Jatt clans but so far most Indian Rajputs don't score like Jatts in terms of autosomal genetics including Punjabi ones. At the very least they should have the same paternal Y-DNA as us. A Y-DNA study on Rajputs of Punjab, Jammu and Rajasthan should shed some light on this.

Rahuls77
09-11-2018, 11:21 AM
I wouldn't trust jatland as a final source for anything. A few clan names used by Rajasthani Jatts I am familiar with are Sheoran, Ahlawat, Dahiya, Pannu, Beniwal & Choudhary. Prabha Choudhary from Rajasthan University is a Rajasthani Jatt. Among Jatt Sikhs, at least Pannu, Beniwal & Dahiya are found. Prashant may be more familiar with Rajasthani Jatt clans.

http://www.jatmahasabha.in/2011/08/prabha-choudhary-rajasthan-university.html

Anyways, Jatt Sikhs also use Birk. It's seen the same as Virk among us (just a variation in spelling). There is one on my haplogroup spreadsheet. She is my predicted 5th cousin on 23andMe and shares my mother's maternal line.




I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you are at all familiar with Sikhs and especially Jatt Sikhs, you should know that modern Sikhism today is very much just a variation of Punjabism. Jattism has influenced it as well but among Sikhs, Jattism is very much intertwined with Punjabism. Most of today's modern Punjabi music/popular culture industries are dominated by Sikhs as well. Especially, when considering that Muslim Punjabis outnumber us multiple times.

Eastern Punjabi music is mostly loud and rustic, much of it is centered around bhangra that the pop boom that arrived in the 80's. Whereas Punjabi music over all, on the whole that is, is dominated by Pakistani Punjabis, and their artistes come across a diversity of castes, qaums and tribes, I personally tend to find Pakistani Punjabi music far richer compared to Indian Punjabi music scene, this is not to deny that in Indian Punjab you have iconic performers such as Gurdas Maan, Hans Raj Hans, The Wadalis etc. But then there are the likes of Hamid Ali Bela, Patthanay Khan, The Lohar Father-Son Duo, Shauqat Ali, Arieb Azhar. In fact, trends in the Pakistani Music scene tend to drive and 'inspire' the Indian music too, the case of the success of Coke Studio in Pak and the adoption of the same concept by Indian TV is kinda hard to ignore.
And then the role of Muslim Bards and Raagis-Rebabis, following in the tradition of Bhai Mardana and his descendants , even to this day, that's what even Amardeep Singh has noted in his Lost Heritage series.
Punjabiyat is NOT restricted or dominated by a singular ethnic or social group, I personally know of many, including JP Nanda. These many hues give Punjabiyat its identity and strength, and the Empire of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was also an example of the fusion yielding rich dividends for Punjab, at least while he lived.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-11-2018, 12:42 PM
I really doubt if Mahabharata contains any real significance for a reading of the history, of an account of the times, or for that matter even the Rajtarangini. But then these are accepted for the lack of any credible account of the period. I'd not risk trusting a piece of fiction for inferring any historical account.

As far as Punjabi is concerned, the elite from a couple of generations ago, especially the Urdu-speakers, has certainly ignored it and the modern popular culture shown indifference towards it, and the new generation may not be conversing in Punjabi dialects of their roots, compared to their usage of Urdu of English, mostly in the cities, however the rural Punjab(Pakistani) remains as rooted and conversant in its natural mother tongue, at least so has been my experience in my interactions with the Pakistanis. While those who speak Punjabi are derided as Paindus or Patwaris, for their political orientation, just how better is the condition of Indian Punjab? I say its far worse, the society and the attitudes of the many upper middle class exhibiting eilitism and caricatures of wannabe elites, looking down upon those economically not as well off as themselves. In fact Pakistanis tend to have no airs of arrogance, which Indian Punjabis have become 'educated' with, given their fascination with an India that is no more a country than a doll fashioned in the anglo model. Its not as if Pakistani Punjabi elite are all super-generous, however they are more open and secure in their interactions with people across social divisions. Such openness and friendliness was also the nature of the Punjabis on the Indian side until a few years after the partition. The genuine earthiness is drying, and many of the Punjabis, especially the Sikhs, on this Eastern divide tend to agree with what I have observed. The Punjabi language is still alive, even if it is somewhat discriminated against, in Pakistan, and my friends, including a few Karachi walas, one of them is a Gujrati Ismaili(he teaches in Islamabad and Lahore) and the other a Mohajir Pathan(married into a Punjabi Butt family from Lahore) from pre-partition roots in Meerut, speak fluent Punjabi. The Urdu dominance can be explained by the challenges which Pakistan faced upon its birth, given its linguistic diversity, and it needed a holding glue, which required a bit sacrifice from the Punjabis, that Indians, us, taunt them as an act of betrayal. The real Punjabiyat died sooner in India than it did in Pakistan, where it survives, their sense of hospitality, the love and the feeling of our common humanity you feel when you mingle with them. While we are deeply insecure when a Cricketer Politician from the Indian Punjab hugs the Pakistani lArmy chief!
The Pakistani Punjabi is still an open-minded soul, regardless all the stories of religious bigotry we hear and read of, that soul lives on! And I doubt if in India we stand much of a chance!

I don't know which world you live in mate, but it is a known fact Punjabi is dying in Pakistan. It's not official language, nor it is taught in schools with proper script like Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi, while we had Punjabi sooba movement to save Punjabi. It is taught in schools with gurmukhi script, and you can learn shahmukhi in university.

We don't feel ashamed of our own language, you go to cities like Chandigarh or Ludhiana or Amritsar, you'll hear Punjabi, while my Arain roommate from Lahore cannot speak it but understands it. He speaks Urdu exclusively, and same thing I have observed with my interaction with other Pakistani Punjabis who exclusively speak Urdu at home and in day to day life.

Difference is, for us Punjabi identity comes first, and Indian second, hence Punjabi is surviving even in the cities here, while in Pakistan the National identity comes first, hence Urdu is pushed more. What's the most sad part, these non mohajir population look down on Mohajirs by calling them Bhaiyaa and their language like Amjadpak called it, but they are forgetting their own language for the "Bhaiyaa" language.

If Punjabi was so bigger in west Punjab as you claim, west Punjab wouldn't have Punjabi Bachao movements right now.

Also I must say your knowledge of Pakistan, the music, the region, the clans, the politicians is very strong, which is very strange for a 2nd gen Hindu Brahmin born outside of Pakistan.

agent_lime
09-11-2018, 01:43 PM
I don't know which world you live in mate, but it is a known fact Punjabi is dying in Pakistan. It's not official language, nor it is taught in schools with proper script like Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi, while we had Punjabi sooba movement to save Punjabi. It is taught in schools with gurmukhi script, and you can learn shahmukhi in university.

We don't feel ashamed of our own language, you go to cities like Chandigarh or Ludhiana or Amritsar, you'll hear Punjabi, while my Arain roommate from Lahore cannot speak it but understands it. He speaks Urdu exclusively, and same thing I have observed with my interaction with other Pakistani Punjabis who exclusively speak Urdu at home and in day to day life.

Difference is, for us Punjabi identity comes first, and Indian second, hence Punjabi is surviving even in the cities here, while in Pakistan the National identity comes first, hence Urdu is pushed more. What's the most sad part, these non mohajir population look down on Mohajirs by calling them Bhaiyaa and their language like Amjadpak called it, but they are forgetting their own language for the "Bhaiyaa" language.

If Punjabi was so bigger in west Punjab as you claim, west Punjab wouldn't have Punjabi Bachao movements right now.

Also I must say your knowledge of Pakistan, the music, the region, the clans, the politicians is very strong, which is very strange for a 2nd gen Hindu Brahmin born outside of Pakistan.

Even outside of Punjab most Punjabi families speak Punjabi at home in India. Yes they will learn the local languages too. My parents speak serieki and punjabi with their respective families. No one looks down upon any language for the most part. The only weird thing in India is that people look down upon you if you can't speak English. I try to speak in Hindi with people and get answers back in broken English. And I would rather not use a fake Indian accent, my American accent is a little harder to understand. I lived in the West for 13ish years.

Reza
09-11-2018, 04:02 PM
Thread closed

khanabadoshi
09-11-2018, 05:19 PM
Thanks Reza. I wasn't online yesterday.