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Michał
10-27-2013, 12:52 PM
Its present distribution is reminiscent of the Battle Axe Cultures, is it not? Linguistically that would partly fit with waves of IE spreading up river from the Middle Dnieper into Fatyanovo (3200 BC-2300 BC) and then up to the Baltic, gradually spreading the Baltic family, but thinly.

It will depend on your definition of the Battle-Axe cultures. If you see it as just one of the alternative names for the entire Corded Ware culture (or CW horizon), I would partially agree with that. I say “partially” just in case one would suspect that I suggest that Z280 was associated with all subgroupings of CW, which I find rather unlikely.

However, many people use the “Battle-Axe” term to distinguish the specific Scandinavian variety of CW, so in such case I would rather exclude Z280 from such group of potential BA founders.

Let’s assume that R1a (mostly R1a-M417, and especially R1a-Z283) was strongly associated with the birth and expansion of the Corded Ware culture (although we still lack a definite proof for this assumption). Here is a good map that I have found in the internet (although I don’t know its original source):

842

Under the assumption that there was a strong relationship between CW and R1a, I would expect that some specific (local) varieties of the CW horizon were associated with different early branches of R1a. For example, the only branch of R1a that could have represented the Scandinavian (Battle-Axe) variety of CW was definitely Z284. Also, it seems likely that the distinctive North-Western variety of CW, frequently named “Single-Grave”, has likely been associated with the CTS4385 subclade of R1a-M417 that could have included not only the ancestors of the L664 lineage, but also the distinctive STR haplotype found in Eulau that resembles the haplotypes of the contemporary Leavitt/Stead lineage (found in Britain but suspected of Norman origin).

The “typical” (or “classical”) form of CW, as shown on the above map, was seen on a large territory stretching from SW Germany through Bohemia, Poland, part of Ukraine, part of Belarus and the Baltic countries. I would suspect that these were mostly some very rare European Z283*/Z282* lineages (clusters 3.A, 3.B1 and 3.B2 in our project) and the Z280 clade, including its rare Western European non-Z92 and non-CTS1211 subclusters 5.A and 5.B (including subclusters 5.B1, 5.B2 and 5.B3 that are probably only very distantly related to each other). The ancestors of the two major subclades of Z280 (CTS1211 and Z92) could have lived in a region encompassing the Eastern part of Poland, Northern Belarus and the Baltic countries, and I would suspect that the initial expansion of those two subclades was associated with the subsequent expansion of the so-called Trzciniec horizon that included the Trzciniec, East Trzciniec, Komarovo and Sosnica cultures (all considered to be CW-derived).

The major problem I have with assigning particular early branches of R1a to some exact locations in Europe is related to the M458 and Z93 branches. It seems likely that both of them were initially associated with Eastern Europe, but it is very difficult to provide just one scenario that could be considered most likely.

In the case of M458, I would agree with your suggestion that this clade was born (or at least has initially settled) somewhere in (Southern?) Belarus. i would also assume that they survived the entire Bronze Age (and most of the Iron Age) by staying at this single location (thus taking no part in any significant cultural expansions and population movements in Central Europe that preceded the Slavic expansion in the first millennium AD). However, the presence of some very unusual M458 haplotypes (reported by Underhill) in the Caucasian region and the recent finding of our admin team that most of the Sardinian members of M458 do not seem to belong to any of the two major subclades of M458 (i.e. L260 or CTS11962), makes the whole situation very enigmatic.

Finally, the question of Z93 in this context is also very complex. Assuming that CW was associated not only with the large branch Z283/Z282 but also with their more distantly related cousins from the CTS4385 branch, it seems natural to assume some participation of Z93 in the Eastern European varieties of CW, like Fatyanovo-Balanovo. This would have led to their subsequent involvement in the Abashevo culture and then to their significant (or dominant) contribution to Andronovo. However, as I have already written in another thread, this scenario would almost completely disconnect Z93 from the Late Yamna culture (including Poltavka that very strongly contributed to Andronovo). Therefore, we need to consider an alternative scenario in which Z93 was rather represented by a significant (Eastern) part of the large (and quite diversified) Yamna horizon (marked as "Ocher Grave" on the above map), while Fatyanovo-Balanovo were rather associated with some nearly extinct subclades of Z283/2 or with some Eastern subclades of Z280.

Baltimore1937
10-28-2013, 08:17 AM
And how does the ancient L664 fit in with Corded Ware? There is enough divergence within L664 to maybe have a multiple origin from what is now Russia and etc. My group B in Scandinavia may have arrived into NW Europe via a different route than other subgroups within L664.

Jean M
10-28-2013, 09:24 AM
However, many people use the “Battle-Axe” term to distinguish the specific Scandinavian variety of CW, so in such case I would rather exclude Z280 from such group of potential BA founders.

Sorry I was unclear. I think we had this mix-up before. Must cure myself of this. I was using "Battle-Axe" to mean the eastern range of cultures that are linked to CW i.e. around the Baltic - the ones marked Corded Ware on your map. In short I agree with you.

Jean M
10-28-2013, 11:19 AM
In the case of M458, I would agree with your suggestion that this clade was born (or at least has initially settled) somewhere in (Southern?) Belarus. i would also assume that they survived the entire Bronze Age (and most of the Iron Age) by staying at this single location (thus taking no part in any significant cultural expansions and population movements in Central Europe that preceded the Slavic expansion in the first millennium AD). However, the presence of some very unusual M458 haplotypes (reported by Underhill) in the Caucasian region and the recent finding of our admin team that most of the Sardinian members of M458 do not seem to belong to any of the two major subclades of M458 (i.e. L260 or CTS11962), makes the whole situation very enigmatic.

The outliers are interesting. It looks like another example of the oddities that crop up when we zoom into the detail of the picture. Just one or two wanderers from the family home who end up far away can cause this kind of surprise. It does not need a major migration.

Michał
10-28-2013, 03:05 PM
And how does the ancient L664 fit in with Corded Ware?
There is no strong evidence for CTS4385 (a branch ancestral to L664) being associated with CW, but there are at least two major reasons to put forward this hypothesis:
1) The only evidence for the presence of R1a in CW comes from Eulau (Germany) and the STR haplotype found in that CW site does not resemble any known subclade of R1a except the rare CTS4385* lineage mentioned in my post.
2) The distribution of L664 in all countries around the North Sea is consistent with the hypothesis that they are remnants of the North-Western subpopulation of CW (Single-Grave) who have managed to survived the arrival of Bell-Beakers while moderately expanding in the more recent times, as suggested in my previous posts on this forum:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1026-what-is-the-latest-thinking-on-were-R1a-originated/page4&p=8225#post8225
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1027-Correlations-of-various-R1a-and-I-subclades-that-might-link-with-R1b-subclades/page4&p=8275#post8275


There is enough divergence within L664 to maybe have a multiple origin from what is now Russia and etc.
When taking into account both the frequency and distribution of L664 in Europe, it seems highly unlikely that this branch arrived to NW Europe as a result of two independent and relatively recent (i.e. post-CW) migrations from Russia, and I don’t know any data that would support such hypothesis. The divergence within L664 itself is not a sufficient indicator for the separate arrival of particular L664 subgroupings to NW Europe.


My group B in Scandinavia may have arrived into NW Europe via a different route than other subgroups within L664.
Could you please explain what is the basis for this presumption?

T101
10-29-2013, 09:32 PM
(The) STR haplotype found in that CW site does not resemble any known subclade of R1a except the rare CTS4385* lineage

Can you absolutely rule out every other known subclade of R1a besides CTS4385? The haplotype to begin with is only 16 STR markers, and while the modal for R1a1 is far off at a match of only 10 of 15 markers, there are quite a few people from the surrounding countries who are quite close. 8EGCP from Poland is a 15 of 16 marker match, and then there are quite a few people from Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Britain who are within a genetic distance of 3 at 16 markers. If it wasn't for dys448=19, and dys 393=14 most R1a people would be very close (granted dys 388 wasn't tested). Don't you think with more markers tested there would be a greater convergence with the other R1a subclades? Especially something ancestral to them?

parasar
10-29-2013, 10:51 PM
Can you absolutely rule out every other known subclade of R1a besides CTS4385? The haplotype to begin with is only 16 STR markers, and while the modal for R1a1 is far off at a match of only 10 of 15 markers, there are quite a few people from the surrounding countries who are quite close. 8EGCP from Poland is a 15 of 16 marker match, and then there are quite a few people from Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Britain who are within a genetic distance of 3 at 16 markers. If it wasn't for dys448=19, and dys 393=14 most R1a people would be very close (granted dys 388 wasn't tested). Don't you think with more markers tested there would be a greater convergence with the other R1a subclades? Especially something ancestral to them?

That rare xL664 line is DYS388=12 which appears to be ancestral.

Edit: Other lines cannot be ruled out without further testing Eulau, but I recall observing that that the off norm trend for both the Eulau sample and CTS4385xL664(DYS388=12) was similar, ie, both skewed in the same direction off the norm.

Baltimore1937
10-29-2013, 11:26 PM
There is no strong evidence for CTS4385 (a branch ancestral to L664) being associated with CW, but there are at least two major reasons to put forward this hypothesis:
1) The only evidence for the presence of R1a in CW comes from Eulau (Germany) and the STR haplotype found in that CW site does not resemble any known subclade of R1a except the rare CTS4385* lineage mentioned in my post.
2) The distribution of L664 in all countries around the North Sea is consistent with the hypothesis that they are remnants of the North-Western subpopulation of CW (Single-Grave) who have managed to survived the arrival of Bell-Beakers while moderately expanding in the more recent times, as suggested in my previous posts on this forum:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1026-what-is-the-latest-thinking-on-were-R1a-originated/page4&p=8225#post8225
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1027-Correlations-of-various-R1a-and-I-subclades-that-might-link-with-R1b-subclades/page4&p=8275#post8275


When taking into account both the frequency and distribution of L664 in Europe, it seems highly unlikely that this branch arrived to NW Europe as a result of two independent and relatively recent (i.e. post-CW) migrations from Russia, and I don’t know any data that would support such hypothesis. The divergence within L664 itself is not a sufficient indicator for the separate arrival of particular L664 subgroupings to NW Europe.


Could you please explain what is the basis for this presumption?

No, I can't explain much. I'm not a scientist. But L664 is sehr alt (very old). It may have split up into different tribes back in the Ukraine & area, before wandering off in different directions. One tribe may have gone north up the Volga or Don, and around into Finland. Any remnants in Russia may have been exterminated by later by waves of invaders.

My subgroup has an outlier in Finland, which either arrived there from Sweden, or directly from the east in distant times past.

Michał
10-30-2013, 01:24 PM
Can you absolutely rule out every other known subclade of R1a besides CTS4385?
No, I definitely agree with you and Parasar that we cannot rule it out.



8EGCP from Poland is a 15 of 16 marker match
8EGCP shows Germany as a place of his origin (not Poland). Do you know at which company he was tested (so we could confirm his results)? What is his exact ancestral location and to which particular subclade of R1a he belongs? Can you exclude the possibility the he is CTS4385*?



and then there are quite a few people from Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Britain who are within a genetic distance of 3 at 16 markers.
At least some of those British close matches you mention above represent the same Leavitt/Stead lineage as kit 259861 from our project. For example, 6ZUSE (who shows only 2 mismatches when compared to Eulau) is from the Leavitt family, so we can safely assume that he is CTS4385*.



If it wasn't for dys448=19, and dys 393=14 most R1a people would be very close
I think these two rare STR values are slightly more important than the remaining STR results found in the Eulau haplotype, and this is exactly because these two values are much more unusual than any of the remaining STR values that do not fit the modal. I would say that a similar genetic distance from the Eulau haplotype that is reported for most of the above-mentioned contemporary R1a haplotypes is much less meaningful (IMO), as it is based in a larger extent on sharing the modal values than on sharing those rare innovations. In other words, when comparing the patterns composed of several STR results, I always pay more attention to some rare shared innovations than to some shared retentions. Would you agree with me that this makes some sense?



Don't you think with more markers tested there would be a greater convergence with the other R1a subclades? Especially something ancestral to them?
It is of course possible, but we need to rely on those results that are currently available to us. We can only hope that one day some crucial SNP tests will be performed on those Eulau remains and the whole mystery will be finally solved.

Michał
10-30-2013, 01:27 PM
No, I can't explain much. I'm not a scientist. But L664 is sehr alt (very old). It may have split up into different tribes back in the Ukraine & area, before wandering off in different directions. One tribe may have gone north up the Volga or Don, and around into Finland. Any remnants in Russia may have been exterminated by later by waves of invaders.

My subgroup has an outlier in Finland, which either arrived there from Sweden, or directly from the east in distant times past.
I think it is much more likely that this single Finnish member of your cluster 2.B3 (a cluster that is seen in Norway, Scotland and Ireland), descends from some Scandinavian (Swedish or Norwegian) early members of 2.B3 than that his ancestors have stopped in Finland while migrating from Northern Russia to NW Europe. If the L664 members have indeed migrated from Russia to NW Europe in two independent migration waves (separated by more than 2000 years, since your 2.B3 cluster is probably only 2000-2500 years old), this would be an extreme coincidence that not only all of them have come to the same region of Europe but also that no very early separated or 2.B3-related sub-branches of L664 were left in Eastern Europe (not to mention that the only non-L664 lineage from the ancestral branch CTS4385 was found in NW Europe and not in Russia).

newtoboard
11-12-2013, 08:25 PM
Finally, the question of Z93 in this context is also very complex. Assuming that CW was associated not only with the large branch Z283/Z282 but also with their more distantly related cousins from the CTS4385 branch, it seems natural to assume some participation of Z93 in the Eastern European varieties of CW, like Fatyanovo-Balanovo. This would have led to their subsequent involvement in the Abashevo culture and then to their significant (or dominant) contribution to Andronovo. However, as I have already written in another thread, this scenario would almost completely disconnect Z93 from the Late Yamna culture (including Poltavka that very strongly contributed to Andronovo). Therefore, we need to consider an alternative scenario in which Z93 was rather represented by a significant (Eastern) part of the large (and quite diversified) Yamna horizon (marked as "Ocher Grave" on the above map), while Fatyanovo-Balanovo were rather associated with some nearly extinct subclades of Z283/2 or with some Eastern subclades of Z280.

Would you agree with this?

Abashevo: R1a-Z283+/Z282* and maybe R1a-Z280*
Poltavka:Z93*
Andronovo:Z93+, Z94+
Indo-Aryan and Dardic-Nuristani speakers: L657+ and Z21224+
Central Asian Iranian speakers: Z2124+, Z2123+
West Asian Iranian speakers: Z2122+, Z2123+
Timber-Grave culture and European steppe Scythians: Z93*, Z94*
Tagar culture and Forest steppe Scythians: Z280* and Z93+

Michał
11-25-2013, 11:00 PM
Would you agree with this?

Abashevo: R1a-Z283+/Z282* and maybe R1a-Z280*
Poltavka:Z93*
Andronovo:Z93+, Z94+
Indo-Aryan and Dardic-Nuristani speakers: L657+ and Z21224+
Central Asian Iranian speakers: Z2124+, Z2123+
West Asian Iranian speakers: Z2122+, Z2123+
Timber-Grave culture and European steppe Scythians: Z93*, Z94*
Tagar culture and Forest steppe Scythians: Z280* and Z93+
Yes, most of the above seems to be quite likely.

T101
12-06-2013, 05:34 PM
8EGCP shows Germany as a place of his origin (not Poland). Do you know at which company he was tested (so we could confirm his results)? What is his exact ancestral location and to which particular subclade of R1a he belongs? Can you exclude the possibility
the he is CTS4385*?

It goes back about 5 years or so, but I think I remember that the confusion about the mysterious origin of 8EGCP lay in the fact that his ancestors were from Gdansk (Danzig,) yet his ancestors were of German descent and left during the Weimar Republic. Or (the other rumor,) It could be that his haplotype was a hypothetical composite done by Slovak researchers for a "Neolithic R1a person." So... lol... its probably lost forever along with everything else at Dna-Forums.

However, maybe David knows tho. I'll try and catch him over at Eurogenes or Molgen about any information because it would be great to know.




I would say that a similar genetic distance from the Eulau haplotype that is reported for most of the above-mentioned contemporary R1a haplotypes is much less meaningful (IMO), as it is based in a larger extent on sharing the modal values than on sharing those rare innovations. In other words, when comparing the patterns composed of several STR results, I always pay more attention to some rare shared innovations than to some shared retentions.

Completely agree!

Tomenable
09-27-2015, 10:35 AM
We now have 15 samples of R1a from Corded Ware, closely related cultures and influenced cultures:

In chronological order (roughly):

RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
RISE436 - Tiefbrunn - 2868-2580 BC
RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld - 2829-2465 BC
EUL9(99-3) - Eulau - 2600 BC
EUL11(99-2) - Eulau - 2600 BC
EUL12(99-4) - Eulau - 2600 BC
RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
A8 - Naumovo, Russia - 2500 BC
A9 - Serteya II, Russia - 2500 BC
RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
ESP11 - Esperstedt - 2473-2348 BC
RISE431 - Łęki Małe (Bruszczewo) - 2286-2048 BC
RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
Rogalin near Hrubieszów (2 samples) - 2000 BC

Samples A8 and A9 (from Chekunova) were Zhizhitskaya culture, strongly influenced by CW / GAC:


Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals.

Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2009BAR_Int_Ser1964_Dolukhanov_etal.pdf

Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Archaeology_of_lake_settlement_IV-II_mill._BC_Mazurkevich_A._Polkovnikova_M._Dolbuno va_E._ed


RISE431 from Łęki Małe (burial site) and Bruszczewo (where he lived), was already Unetice culture:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5237-Proto-Unetice-aDNA

===============================

It has been confirmed that Scandinavian sample RISE61 (from Kyndeløse) was under R1a-Z284.

Do we know anything about specific subclades to which other of those 15 samples belonged ???

===============================

Here maps showing locations of samples:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5413-Almost-100-aDNA-samples-of-R1b-and-R1a-haplogroups-older-than-500-AD

George
09-27-2015, 11:35 AM
We now have 15 samples of R1a from Corded Ware, closely related cultures and influenced cultures:

In chronological order (roughly):

RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
RISE436 - Tiefbrunn - 2868-2580 BC
RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld - 2829-2465 BC
EUL9(99-3) - Eulau - 2600 BC
EUL11(99-2) - Eulau - 2600 BC
EUL12(99-4) - Eulau - 2600 BC
RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
A8 - Naumovo, Russia - 2500 BC
A9 - Serteya II, Russia - 2500 BC
RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
ESP11 - Esperstedt - 2473-2348 BC
RISE431 - Łęki Małe (Bruszczewo) - 2286-2048 BC
RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
Rogalin near Hrubieszów (2 samples) - 2000 BC

Samples A8 and A9 (from Chekunova) were Zhizhitskaya culture, strongly influenced by CW / GAC:



RISE431 from Łęki Małe (burial site) and Bruszczewo (where he lived), was already Unetice culture:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5237-Proto-Unetice-aDNA

===============================

It has been confirmed that Scandinavian sample RISE61 (from Kyndeløse) was under R1a-Z284.

Do we know anything about specific subclades to which other of those 15 samples belonged ???

===============================

Here maps showing locations of samples:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5413-Almost-100-aDNA-samples-of-R1b-and-R1a-haplogroups-older-than-500-AD

Where does the Serteya VIII R1a (4,000 BCE) fit in? It's clearly pre CW and pre-GAC but does its presence suggest anything?

Tomenable
09-27-2015, 12:31 PM
Where does the Serteya VIII R1a (4,000 BCE) fit in?

It could be some pre-M198 subclade, such as that of Karelian hunter (R-M459*) or of Mr Szpakowski from Belarus (R-YP1272):


2) The R1a-M459* sample has been found in Karelia, from EHG
3) Shpakowski isn't R1a-M459*, but the subclade R1a-YP1272

http://s10.postimg.org/n9lr65bjt/Szpakowski.png

Szpakowski is a modern person, while Karelian hunter is that EHG sample UZOO74 from Red Deer Island (ca. 5500-5000 BC).


It's clearly pre CW and pre-GAC but does its presence suggest anything?

It suggests that some "archaic" subclades of R1a expanded into Europe with Siberian / ANE hunters before Indo-Europeans.

There are two samples of EHG - one from Karelia (with R1a1-M459*) and one from Samara Oblast (R1b1a-P297*):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

They did not belong to Indo-European subclades R1b-M269 and R1a-M198, but to more "archaic" subclades.

=================================

EHG autosomal DNA (they were mostly a mix of WHG and ANE):

http://s7.postimg.org/bj3gwb2or/EHG_autosomal.png

While in Corded Ware and Yamnaya, there was something more (Caucasus-Gedrosia?):

http://s22.postimg.org/5509lhoj5/Corded_Ware_Yamnaya.png

http://s22.postimg.org/5509lhoj5/Corded_Ware_Yamnaya.png

According to this map, Caucasus-Gedrosia peaks in area where Maykop culture existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

http://s17.postimg.org/s8jsgg0r3/Maykop_culture.png

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/10408-Dodecad-Ancestry-Project

Map: http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6542/caucasus.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6542/caucasus.jpg

======================

Edit:

So question is - were EHG really direct ancestors of PIE, or just their "cousins" ???:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1646-Genome-of-a-late-Neolithic-Iberian-farmer&p=111198&viewfull=1#post111198

George
09-27-2015, 02:56 PM
Re Serteya VIII R1a: "It could be some pre-M198 subclade, such as that of Karelian hunter (R-M459*) or of Mr Szpakowski from Belarus (R-YP1272)"

Is this actually confirmed or just a supposition? Acc. to Yfull M198 arose ca. 6,500 BCE... Unless the actual Serteya analysis suggests otherwise, the date 4,000 would be compatible with M198. And further consequences.

George
09-27-2015, 03:37 PM
P.S. "Caucasus-Gedrosia peaks in area where Maykop culture existed"

Not sure if this is relevant, but maybe. Just archaeological items. Maykop influence (or mediated influence) spread a lot further West than just the area on your map BEFORE the IE invasion of Central Europe. Unfortunately most of these areas remain to be properly analysed at a genetic level. Lower Mykhajlivka spread to the area between Lower Dnipro and Dnister long before Maykop thrived. The steppe peoples also moved in that direction throughout the 4th millennium. Back and forth actually. Maykop stuff present practically to the Danube, as Trypilia practically to the Volga BEFORE 3,000 BCE... Usatovo a major presence. What Rassamakin calls "PostStog" (ca. 3500-3000) also combines both Maykop and Trypilia. Now Dnipro Donetsk mixed heavily with the nascent SrednyStog. And it was almost certainly a prime R1a carrier (this hg clearly advancing from N to S from the forested areas), as Repin might have been.== This is certainly one area where aDNA might surprise as much as Allentoft's paper did re R1b... Waiting patiently ;)

Tomenable
09-27-2015, 03:49 PM
Is this actually confirmed or just a supposition?

Jean M's website has it listed as R1a1 (which probably means that they didn't test it any further beyond M459):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

But Karelian hunter lived 5500 - 5000 BCE, which is also compatible with M198, yet he was actually not M198.

So it seems that population of M198 carriers lived somewhere else. They could be living even far away from Karelia.

Serteya VIII from 4000 BCE was probably just a regular Mesolithic EHG, like that Karelian UZOO74 from 5000 BCE.

===========================

Edit:

Reconstruction of Karelian HG by Gerasimov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Mikhaylovich_Gerasimov) (I'm not sure if this is UZOO74 or another one from the same burial site):

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_02.jpghttp://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_03.jpghttp://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_04.jpghttp://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_01.jpg

George
09-27-2015, 04:24 PM
P.P.S. If the view of some archaeologists (viz., that DD had spread as far as the Vistula even before the Trypilian expansion initially began then we might actually have R1a there prior to the advent of the IE's. And hence the proper analysis of TRB and GAC again surfaces as a prime assignment.

alan
09-27-2015, 04:35 PM
What I would warn is that there were several groups who seemed dramatically different in the Caucasus alone in the later Neolithic and copper age. Armenia was occupied by groups of Mesopotamian origin while a compelling paper in German on Maykop origins refutes a link with Mesopotamia and Uruk expansion and points more towards Iran and even Turkmenistan. The Neolithic Armenians may have been fairly standard ENF but the Maykop group may have been more like whatever existed in north Iran and the east Caspian c. 6000 or more years ago. I believe Teal may have arisen in a blend of ANE Kelteminar and related hunters and Jeitun/north Iran type farmers in the east Caspian and northernmost Iran.

A little Teal could have bled into the steppes in pre-Maykop times as we see east Caspian links with the early phase of Elshanka pottery in Samara as well as some lithic links. However, the main driver may have been from Maykop. Maykop was very different from Kura-Araxes and they shouldnt be closely linked.

When you shop around for areas where Teal may have emerged in an area where ANE hunters and farmers met and exclude the steppes, the east Caspian stands out for me with its Kelteminar-Jeitun interface.

alan
09-27-2015, 05:14 PM
P.P.S. If the view of some archaeologists (viz., that DD had spread as far as the Vistula even before the Trypilian expansion initially began then we might actually have R1a there prior to the advent of the IE's. And hence the proper analysis of TRB and GAC again surfaces as a prime assignment.

It does seem that R1a and P297 while not in farmer Europe or in the farming core of SW Asia might have had a wider spread than just the steppe area hunters. R1a seems to have also existed well to the north of the steppes in eastern Europe while I strongly suspect P297 might have been present in Kelteminar hunters in the east Caspian. Given basal R1a and b distribution it seems some of that got into SW Asia too - I suspect around 9500BC with pressure flaking but I think P297 was much later and may be linked to the southern strand of pointed pot Mesolithic we see in the east Caspian and Samara and later throughout the Euro steppes.

Jean M
12-12-2015, 12:54 PM
A new paper which does not disdain to cite a helpful post on David W.'s blog in its supplement 1.

Alexander S. Semenov and Vladimir V. Bulat, Possible North-Eastern Connections of the R1a1-populations of Corded Ware Culture According to the Archaeologic and Paleogenetic Data, Russian Journal of Biological Research, 2015, Vol. 5, no. 3, pp. 173-194. http://ejournal23.com/journals_n/1444135225.pdf


Our new work considers the problems of paleogenetics, archeology and antropology connected with origins of Corded Ware culture and early migration of Y-DNA R1 carriers. This work considers the Second Corded Ware Center on the Far East and Yakutia and its connection with the Eastern European one. Authors examine the hypothesis that the two Corded Ware cultures have the common source.

6897


Hat-tip to the Bell Beaker Blogger, who picked this up.

George
12-12-2015, 02:22 PM
A new paper which does not disdain to cite a helpful post on David W.'s blog in its supplement 1.

Alexander S. Semenov and Vladimir V. Bulat, Possible North-Eastern Connections of the R1a1-populations of Corded Ware Culture According to the Archaeologic and Paleogenetic Data, Russian Journal of Biological Research, 2015, Vol. 5, no. 3, pp. 173-194. http://ejournal23.com/journals_n/1444135225.pdf



6897


Hat-tip to the Bell Beaker Blogger, who picked this up.

I get a "malicious website" block from my Malware. Whether I use the link or type in the address. Thanks for the icon anyway.

parastais
12-12-2015, 02:58 PM
Corded Ware of Yakutia?? Wow.

And then this:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/09/support-for-linguistic-macrofamilies.html

Jean M
12-12-2015, 03:06 PM
I get a "malicious website" block from my Malware. Whether I use the link or type in the address. Thanks for the icon anyway.

You could try this link, which goes to the abstract, not the pdf: http://oaji.net/journal-archive-stats.html?number=1687

The paper seems rather amateurish, but the idea is interesting.

Jean M
12-12-2015, 03:17 PM
I have just realised that they link to an old copy of my ancient DNA table, hosted at http://suyun.info/index.php?p=ancientdna . I didn't know it was there. :biggrin1:

I keep begging geneticists from aDNA labs to host an online database of aDNA results, so that I don't have to struggle to maintain my partial one.

George
12-12-2015, 03:38 PM
I have just realised that they link to an old copy of my ancient DNA table, hosted at http://suyun.info/index.php?p=ancientdna . I didn't know it was there. :biggrin1:

I keep begging geneticists from aDNA labs to host an online database of aDNA results, so that I don't have to struggle to maintain my partial one.

I get this old copy fine, no problems with your link. But for some reason I'm also blocked from the abstract you suggested as an alternative. Well I'll try to follow the discussion here, if any....

Jean M
12-12-2015, 04:48 PM
I get this old copy fine, no problems with your link. But for some reason I'm also blocked from the abstract you suggested as an alternative. Well I'll try to follow the discussion here, if any....

There is some comment on the Bell Beaker Blogger's post on this paper: http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/corded-ware-cultures-actually-related.html

Tomenable
05-09-2016, 10:34 AM
It seems that Wojciech Korfanty was R1a1a1a L664:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_Korfanty

Unless it is a totally unrelated lineage of Korfantys?:

http://s32.postimg.org/ikjdi7fb9/Korfanty.png

There are the following samples from CWC:

RISE446 (2829-2465 BC) - R1a1a1a L664

And three probable L664s (from 2600 BC):

EUL9(99-3), EUL11(99-2), EUL12(99-4)

Tomenable
05-09-2016, 03:45 PM
^ Korfanty is a rare surname, so I guess that all of them have a common male ancestor.

Artmar
05-09-2016, 09:37 PM
^ Korfanty is a rare surname, so I guess that all of them have a common male ancestor.
Korfanty males are said to be descended from one male ancestor.

It was a Konstanty Hektor Corfanti, who was born in Venetia in merchant family - he was a colonel in a Croat light cavalry unit.
At some point, during 30 Years' War, Corfanti was badly injured and he decided to stay in Silesia. Konstanty bought some land, married Amanda von Jurowski and fortunately for him, he was able to extend his lineage.

If it's true, L664 may be a haplogroup of one of the leaders of Silesian Uprising, Wojciech Korfanty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_Korfanty . However, we need at least second result from another Korfanty line, as distant as possible, to exclude possible NPE (with a German person, for example).

This kit is in R1a Project, joined on my request with the priceless help of lgmayka. He seems to belong to the very young clade of YP282: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP282/. I wouldn't have expected such result from descendant of Italian person but we have some interesting, singleton L664 results from non-North-Seaish countries (Hungarian, Latvian, Iberian(?)/Italian(?), even a supposed member of Lemko minority from Poland). So it's unlikely but certainly not impossible. With more and more testees some exceptions are going to pop-up from time to time.

Tomenable
05-10-2016, 05:46 PM
Thank you Artmar! Here is also some information about them:

https://www.myheritage.pl/names/amanda_corfanti

Konstanty Hektor Corfanti - born on 8 December 1619 in Veneto region, Italy
Amanda Weronika Corfanti (de domo von Jurowski, CoA Łzawa) - born in 1623

They married in 1641. Corfanti settled in Siemianowice (German: Siemianowitz):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemianowice_Śląskie

Snkves
10-04-2019, 02:24 PM
There are the following samples from CWC:

RISE446 (2829-2465 BC) - R1a1a1a L664

And three probable L664s (from 2600 BC):

EUL9(99-3), EUL11(99-2), EUL12(99-4)

What branch are they below L664?

https://i.imgur.com/tRVg6Yb.png

leonardo
10-10-2019, 04:57 PM
This study on the remains found within a Battle Axe Culture grave, released yesterday, indicate the male remains were R1a and showed a correlation to the Corded Ware Culture.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528

Coldmountains
10-10-2019, 05:04 PM
This study on the remains found within a Battle Axe Culture grave, released yesterday, indicate the male remains were R1a and showed a correlation to the Corded ware Culture.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528

The Polish CWC R1a-M417 sample was an autosomal copy of Yamnaya interestingly. More so than CWC_Baltic_Early.

Most R1a clades found untill yet in CWC are either very rare today or restricted to West Europe. It seems that most European R1a today (Balto-Slavic clades) comes from places a bit east of Poland and south of the Baltics. Probably Belarus or North Ukraine. Later in the Bronze Age Balto-Slavic clades are found in the Baltics but most of them seem to be deep Baltic clades and some lineages like R1a-M458 were not found in ancient dna yet. I guess most clades ancestral to Slavic R1a and West European L51 will be found in more eastern CWC subcultures not sampled yet.

10-10-2019, 05:36 PM
Thanks for the info, still waiting on more ancient samples to link my clade back to where it’s been since Cordedware.

KSDA
10-11-2019, 03:52 AM
This study on the remains found within a Battle Axe Culture grave, released yesterday, indicate the male remains were R1a and showed a correlation to the Corded Ware Culture.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528

Cross posting my comment from the Ancient (aDNA) forum:

ber1 looks to be R-Y2395* (xZ284, YP694, YP3896). Single derived reads for Z662 (R-Z283 level) and Z282, 3 for Y2395, no reads at Z289. Negative for all SNPs from the three known downstream branches.

poz81 looks like R-CTS4385* (xY2894/L664, FGC9988). Single derived reads for CTS4385, S2846, and S2848, all of which are at the R-CTS4385 level. Negative for all defining SNPs for the two downstream branches.