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Tomenable
09-03-2018, 12:16 PM
How common is R1b among West Slavic ethnic groups? Which subclades are the most common ones?

Myres 2010 study had 18.4% of R1b in Poland. The same study had 21.6% of R1b for Czechia and 16.2% for Slovakia.

Link to Myres 2010 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html

According to Myres 2010 the most common branch of R1b in Poland is U106 and in Czech Republic P312 predominates.

Among Lusatian Sorbs the percentage of R1b is 9.8% - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 12:47 PM
What other studies apart from Myres 2010 tackle the issue of R1b in West Slavic nations?

leonardo
09-03-2018, 01:04 PM
Among Kashubians:
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kashubians.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians

There are a few things to factor: remnants left from before the Slavic migration, immigration of Germanic people in Medieval times and, of course, recent German immigration (by recent, I mean after the Partition). Isn't U106 and P312 associated with Celto-Germanic ancestry? We know the Celts were present in many parts where the West Slavs settled (not so much in Kashubia, I believe). The studies I attached list R1b as 7.8% and 8.2%, respectively, but don't specify branches or subclades.

leonardo
09-03-2018, 04:39 PM
Among Kashubians:
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kashubians.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians

There are a few things to factor: remnants left from before the Slavic migration, immigration of Germanic people in Medieval times and, of course, recent German immigration (by recent, I mean after the Partition). Isn't U106 and P312 associated with Celto-Germanic ancestry? We know the Celts were present in many parts where the West Slavs settled (not so much in Kashubia, I believe). The studies I attached list R1b as 7.8% and 8.2%, respectively, but don't specify branches or subclades.

Edit: perused the articles too quickly. The first article list two studies. R1b is 9.3% and 7.8%, respectively. The second article cites one of the studies already , mentioned for Kashubians and also lists a study for Kociewie, whereby 17.7% of those tested were R1b. Wouldn't Kociewie be an ancestral home for the Goths? I believe Kociewie was once pronounced Gociewie, as in land of the Goths.

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 07:24 PM
Kociewie is populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect. It isn't certain whether they are descended from 12th century settlers from Wielkopolska and Kujawy, or whether this area was populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect already in the Early Middle Ages.

leonardo
09-03-2018, 10:20 PM
Kociewie is populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect. It isn't certain whether they are descended from 12th century settlers from Wielkopolska and Kujawy, or whether this area was populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect already in the Early Middle Ages.

Going back into antiquity, this is part of the Amber Route. Goths and Celts would have occupied Kociewie. Too bad we don't have data regarding what remnant stayed.

Tomenable
09-04-2018, 07:15 AM
Going back into antiquity, this is part of the Amber Route. Goths and Celts would have occupied Kociewie. Too bad we don't have data regarding what remnant stayed.

Kociewie were rather Gepids, Goths more to the south:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=170690&view=findpost&p=1717286

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

Archaeological cultures in 1st century AD (according to A. Kokowski):

http://i33.tinypic.com/zum612.jpg

Archaeological cultures in 4th century AD (according to A. Kokowski):

http://i26.tinypic.com/316qgr8.jpg

leonardo
09-04-2018, 06:17 PM
Kociewie were rather Gepids, Goths more to the south:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=170690&view=findpost&p=1717286

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

Archaeological cultures in 1st century AD (according to A. Kokowski):

http://i33.tinypic.com/zum612.jpg

Archaeological cultures in 4th century AD (according to A. Kokowski):

http://i26.tinypic.com/316qgr8.jpg

I take it the Stavonai are Proto Slavs?

GoldenHind
09-04-2018, 06:59 PM
While I can't give percentages, I can confirm that most subclades of R1b-P312 are present in Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine. I suspect that most are descendants of immigrants of Germanic origin from the modern period, as suggested above. Some may stem from an early Celtic presence there.

There were Bell Beaker settlements in the early Bronze Age in the Oder and Vistula river areas, and these are likely to have been rich in P312. I suspect some of them were incorporated into the Slavic people on the arrival of the latter there. For example, there is a P312>L238 (the so called "Nordic" subclade of P312 which is primarily found in Scandinavia) from Poland who is on the earliest branch of the L238 tree. Even the most devoted proponents of the P312 = Celts theory have given up trying to connect L238 with the Celts.

I can confirm there are P312>DF99 men from Poland, Ukraine (Lithuanian surname), the Czech Republic (Moravia) and two from Russia, one the descendant of an ancient Moscow Boyar family, though I suspect most and possibly all of them are ultimately of Germanic origin.

ADW_1981
09-04-2018, 08:14 PM
Was the Piast dynasty R1b or not? Wasn't this linked to a study that's been in the works several years now?

Joe B
09-04-2018, 11:55 PM
Like GoldenHind, I can't give any percentages for the basal clades of R1b in Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine.
There is R1b-L51>CTS6889 and R1b-L51>L151>CTS4528. R1b-Z2103 has several subclades present. R1b-Z2103>CTS9219>Y5587>PH2302>BY593 used to be called the East European R1b haplotype or something like that when it was just a STR signature. Additionally this area used to have a large Ashkenazi Jewish population with R1b-V88, R1b-PF7563, R1b-Z2103>Y4362, L277 and R1b-Z2103>L584.

Tomenable
09-09-2018, 09:13 PM
Was the Piast dynasty R1b or not? Wasn't this linked to a study that's been in the works several years now?

In 2017 it was announced that two 16th century Mazovian Piasts - brothers Stanisław (born 1501 died 1524) and Janusz III (born 1502 died 1526) - were tested and their Y-DNA haplogroup was R1b. I guess this is rather certain (what was their exact subclade has not been announced yet), but as you can see they are very late Piasts (the dynasty got extinct around 1675-1706), and more Piast samples have to be tested - including other branches (not just Mazovian) - to know for sure what was their original Y-DNA. There could be NPEs somewhere down the line. One problem is that many of supposed Piast graves have turned out to be empty upon examination. For example geneticists from Poznań University (Figlerowicz's team) visited the Lubiąż Abbey in Silesia to collect DNA samples from bones of several Piasts buried there - but they found out that all the graves have been plundered, probably during or after WW2 (it could actually take place even as far back as the 1740s when Prussians conquered Silesia and abolished all of its monasteries and abbeys - they later turned the Lubiąż Abbey into a military garrison and they evicted all Cistercian monks from Silesia).

It is known that some Piasts were buried in this abbey but the graves are all empty (also the crypt with burials of monks was devastated by the Red Army in 1945, but it still has human remains - they tried to find possible Piast remains mixed up with monks):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubi%C4%85%C5%BC_Abbey#Abbey_history

One possible explanation why Piast bones are gone, is that someone could evacuate them from there.

Maybe the German Army or SS evacuated the bones (where?) when withdrawing west in 1945. Nobody knows.

They could be gone long before that, as I said Prussian takeover in the 1740s is also a probable date.

Also after WW2 for many years the abbey was deserted and any robbers could visit and take what they wanted.

=====

At one point the Piasts became so numerous that it caused fragmentation of Poland between rival dukes.

This video shows Piast dynasty geneaological tree, only Piasts born between ca. 1100 - ca. 1310:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDdgTZopVw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDdgTZopVw

This video shows how borders of districts and duchies ruled by each prince were changing over time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Yr06xWvlw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Yr06xWvlw

Tomenable
09-10-2018, 06:47 PM
In MDLP K23b calculator on GEDmatch, Sorbs appear to be more "hunter-gatherer" genetically than Western Poles:

Lusatian Sorbs (average):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.33
Caucasian 27.32
European_Early_Farmers 11.27
(...)

Central Polish (example):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 52.57
Caucasian 28.1
European_Early_Farmers 11.09
(...)

Western Polish (example1):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.00
Caucasian 28.53
European_Early_Farmers 14.71
(...)

Western Polish (example2):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.61
Caucasian 27.23
European_Early_Farmers 13.91
(...)

Grand Duchy of Lithuania, ethnic Polish (example):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 60.88
Caucasian 31.18
Near_East 2.59
European_Early_Farmers 2.45
(...)

Tomenable
09-10-2018, 11:19 PM
Some may stem from an early Celtic presence there.

There were Bell Beaker settlements in the early Bronze Age in the Oder and Vistula river areas

I posted some maps here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15182-What-was-the-ethnicity(ies)-of-Bronze-Age-Lusatian-culture&p=484310&viewfull=1#post484310

"Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Poland" (2014):

https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/a-a-a-poland.jpg

Celts in Southern Poland:

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-poland/

https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/map-s-poland.jpg

"Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Southern Poland" (2016):

https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/s-poland.jpg?w=640&h=283

My Y-DNA subclade might come from those Celts, unless it migrated to Poland later.

Bollox79
09-13-2018, 12:22 PM
As far as U106... in my ancestral group above DF98 (and even in DF98 - one tester under DF98 lists his origin as Poland - but no mdka info) we have a few testers who list their origin as Polish - one family comes to mind that is Z304 (which is immediately above DF98) - under Z156 there are two from Poland not under Z304 then under Z304 2 kits: a kit that is Z156>Z306>Z304>BY12480>A10971>BY3239>BY18857> and mdka Ignacy Skrzatek Born, 1895 in Stara Zbelutka. Also there is a kit that is Z156>Z306>Z304>BY12480>BY12482>Y24836>BY12484>BY19410> and their mdka is Hinak vel Hinczka z Krzyzanowo 1398 Wielkopolska.

I suppose this isn't that surprising since we found DF98>S1911>S1894 in that Unetice sample from Jinonice near Prague in sample I7040 ;-).

Purickis_Lithuania
09-20-2018, 03:37 PM
While I can't give percentages, I can confirm that most subclades of R1b-P312 are present in Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine. I suspect that most are descendants of immigrants of Germanic origin from the modern period, as suggested above. Some may stem from an early Celtic presence there.

There were Bell Beaker settlements in the early Bronze Age in the Oder and Vistula river areas, and these are likely to have been rich in P312. I suspect some of them were incorporated into the Slavic people on the arrival of the latter there. For example, there is a P312>L238 (the so called "Nordic" subclade of P312 which is primarily found in Scandinavia) from Poland who is on the earliest branch of the L238 tree. Even the most devoted proponents of the P312 = Celts theory have given up trying to connect L238 with the Celts.

I can confirm there are P312>DF99 men from Poland, Ukraine (Lithuanian surname), the Czech Republic (Moravia) and two from Russia, one the descendant of an ancient Moscow Boyar family, though I suspect most and possibly all of them are ultimately of Germanic origin.

I just recently posted this as I believe my Lithuanian family has the same roots and it connected to the Russian Boyar families that have clear lineage migration from Germany. FWIW, my Ancestry DNA profile shows 87% Lithuanian and 'Russia/Eastern Europe' it does not specify Germany or central Europe, but perhaps it is linked in with the broader group.

Tomenable
09-21-2018, 12:53 PM
Big Y results for my father are partially in.

martinmkp
10-05-2018, 01:31 PM
There are three possibilities of R1b in Slovakia:
a/ Medieval influx of genes with German settlers (its higher percentage at the former German regions in Slovakia was up till now nor target of any research).
b/ Celtiv and pre-Celtic influence. This is a very strong theory, celtic and celtic-(pre-slav) populations were pushed by Romans and Germans ( Quadi) from Danube region to the northern Carpatian mountains
c/ Old indoeuropean roots - there are some R1b subclades in Slovakia older thah those Celtiv ones.

Michał
10-05-2018, 04:30 PM
There are three possibilities of R1b in Slovakia:
a/ Medieval influx of genes with German settlers (its higher percentage at the former German regions in Slovakia was up till now nor target of any research).
b/ Celtiv and pre-Celtic influence. This is a very strong theory, celtic and celtic-(pre-slav) populations were pushed by Romans and Germans ( Quadi) from Danube region to the northern Carpatian mountains
c/ Old indoeuropean roots - there are some R1b subclades in Slovakia older thah those Celtiv ones.
You seem to have overlooked the Early Germanic tribes, like Quadi.

Capitalis
10-05-2018, 05:37 PM
This is very experimental but I added modern Polish to my regional Beaker references and ran the Slovakian average:

"distance%=0.7637"
Slovakian
Polish,89.8
Beaker_NW_Czechia,4.6
Beaker_SE_Germany,2
Beaker_N_Hungary,1.4
Beaker_W_Germany,0.8
Beaker_SW_Poland,0.6
Beaker_S_Germany,0.4
Beaker_Iberia,0.2
Beaker_SE_France,0.2

Beaker_NW_Czechia + Beaker_SE_Germany might be a proto-Celtic signal.

I didn't know which ancient references to add for West Slavic people I'm sorry.

martinmkp
10-06-2018, 08:18 AM
Beaker_NW_Czechia + Beaker_SE_Germany might be a proto-Celtic signal.

I didn't know which ancient references to add for West Slavic people I'm sorry.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I do not know any relevant ancient DNA research at the territory of Slovakia (except of several papers from the period of so called Belobrdo culture, mix of Slavic and Hungarian popularions from 10th Century cemeteries).

I believe that Population we call Slovaks now are till some extent auchtonous populations, it means that the Slavic movements as from 6th Century were not at all the replacement of previous populations (Celts and Germans). It is due to geography and slow flow of genes in the Northern Carpatians from all sides- compare fe with the Hunagrian/Slovak language border (not a good example due to strong genetic similarity of Hungarians to its neighbours).

martinmkp
10-06-2018, 08:26 AM
You seem to have overlooked the Early Germanic tribes, like Quadi.

Thanks Michal but I do not understand- I have mentioned Quadi under point b/ in my post. Of course they are historically strong ethnicum at the territory north of middle Danube.

There were very strong Celtic settlements, fe in Pressburger Tor (Bratislava Gate)- between Hainburg an der Donau and its celtic fortress in Braunsberg, with central oppidum in Bratislava to the river Vah (Waag). So here I would expect a lot of celtic R1b remnants within living population of Slovaks Austrians and Moravians - and this R1b - it is extremely difficult to call "West Slavic", even if the population speaks Slavic language(s) here.

Michał
10-06-2018, 10:43 AM
Thanks Michal but I do not understand- I have mentioned Quadi under point b/ in my post.

Your point b is about Celtic and pre-Celtic influences, which hardly encompasses the Early Germanic newcomers who were likely rich in R1b. In other words, you never mention the Early Germanic tribes as another (ie. non-Celtic or non-pre-Celtic) source of R1b from outside. You only mention the Quadi as those who have partially displaced the Celts (or pushed them towards the Carpathian mountains).

martinmkp
10-06-2018, 12:02 PM
Your point b is about Celtic and pre-Celtic influences, which hardly encompasses the Early Germanic newcomers who were likely rich in R1b. In other words, you never mention the Early Germanic tribes as another (ie. non-Celtic or non-pre-Celtic) source of R1b from outside. You only mention the Quadi as those who have partially displaced the Celts (or pushed them towards the Carpathian mountains).

Yes now I understand, you are very right. In the middle Danube region could be more waves of Germanic R1b, the one with an early Germans till 6th Century AD, then early medieval ones after destroying of Avars in area of Neusiedler See south of Vienna and Carnuntum, then late 10th Century and later - followed by 13th Century and so on in all region of southern Moravia, western Slovakia and northwestern Hungary.

martinmkp
10-06-2018, 12:14 PM
But there is something else quite interesting - there is quite a lot (according to 23and me) R1b subclade R-Y5587 in north Carpathian Mountains. This 5587 is older than Germanic or Celtic influences. And that could be interesting to research more, because this one seems to be autochtonnous in region.

So we have within so called Western Slavic regions many different R1b from different sources and populations, and we do nor know "who is who". I would not be surprised of finding stronger R1b geographic islands in the future in this region at all.

And I am here not mentioning the R1b carried by and through real Slavic migrants (if there really was such a migration) after year of 500 AD to Central Europe south and west of Poland.

Michał
10-06-2018, 02:39 PM
But there is something else quite interesting - there is quite a lot (according to 23and me) R1b subclade R-Y5587 in north Carpathian Mountains. This 5587 is older than Germanic or Celtic influences. And that could be interesting to research more, because this one seems to be autochtonnous in region.

Clade Y5587 under R1b-Z2103 is indeed very old, but also quite widely distributed, so it cannot be considered as specifically associated with the Northern Carpathian region. There are two major subclades under Y5587 and one of them (the much older one) is common among the Ossetians and also present in Bulgaria and Spain, so one can suspect that it was initially associated with some Scytho-Sarmatian tribes (which is consistent with the recent aDNA results suggesting a very significant presence of R1b-Z2103 in the ancient Scythian population). The other major subclade under Y5587 is much bigger but relatively young, as it descends from a common ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago (according to YFull). This subclade, named R-PH2302 or R-Y14300, is quite common in many Slavic-speaking or Slavic-influenced populations, so it could have been present among the Proto-Slavs, possibly as a result of an early (relatively small and male-specific) Scytho-Sarmatian admixture.

martinmkp
10-06-2018, 03:02 PM
The other major subclade under Y5587 is much bigger but relatively young, as it descends from a common ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago (according to YFull). This subclade, named R-PH2302 or R-Y14300, is quite common in many Slavic-speaking or Slavic-influenced populations, so it could have been present among the Proto-Slavs, possibly as a result of an early (relatively small and male-specific) Scytho-Sarmatian admixture.

Thank you Michal! It would be very nice to have a distribution map of those subclades in Central Europe (DE, PL, CZ, SK, AT, HU, SLO, CRO, RO). We still miss some kind of "DNA Atlas" as Britons or recently Irish do have.

R.Rocca
10-06-2018, 03:21 PM
Slightly off topic, but too many knowledgeable Slavic folks to not ask it here:

The Scythian sample from northern Ukraine that is P312+ L2+ and plots with modern day Poles... he would have spoken an Eastern Indo-Iranian language?

Michał
10-06-2018, 03:44 PM
The Scythian sample from northern Ukraine that is P312+ L2+ and plots with modern day Poles... he would have spoken an Eastern Indo-Iranian language?
I suppose there are many options to consider here. As a member of the Scythian community he likely spoke Scythian (thus an Iranian language), but he may also have some very recent Central European (most likely Celtic) ancestors (for example a Celtic father or grandfather, which would explain his Y-DNA haplogroup), so such a hypothetical Celtic admixture could have shifted him significantly west (towards modern South Poles) on a PCA plot. The IBD analysis with ancient Celtic and Scythian genomes should help us answer this question. The Celtic influences in the Carpathian region (including the East Carpathian region) are supported by archaeology, so this scenario seems to make sense, even though some alternative hypotheses cannot be ruled out.

Michał
10-06-2018, 04:20 PM
How common is R1b among West Slavic ethnic groups? Which subclades are the most common ones?
I've just got the Y-DNA results (37 STRs) for my very distant cousin who is supposed to inherit his Y chromosome from one of my 6th great grandfathers, and it seems that this patrilineage (now associated with a Polish last name) was of deep Germanic origin, as the STR results strongly suggest R1b-U106. More specifically, it seems to be a specifically Polish subclade Z17913 deep under L47>Z159>S3251. Intriguingly, the TMRCA age for this Polish (or West SLavic) subclade Z17913 is about 1500 years according to YFull, while the parental "Germanic" clade (quite common among the Britons, among others) is only 1800 years old, which suggests that my Early Germanic ancestors from this particular lineage came to Poland between 200 CE and 500 CE, or between 100 BC and 250 CE when assuming that YFull underestimates by about 20%. I need to order an SNP test to confirm my STR-based prediction for clade Z17913. Unfortunately, my cousin has no Y-STR matches beyond 12 STRs.

Capitalis
10-07-2018, 09:51 PM
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I do not know any relevant ancient DNA research at the territory of Slovakia (except of several papers from the period of so called Belobrdo culture, mix of Slavic and Hungarian popularions from 10th Century cemeteries).

I believe that Population we call Slovaks now are till some extent auchtonous populations, it means that the Slavic movements as from 6th Century were not at all the replacement of previous populations (Celts and Germans). It is due to geography and slow flow of genes in the Northern Carpatians from all sides- compare fe with the Hunagrian/Slovak language border (not a good example due to strong genetic similarity of Hungarians to its neighbours).

Yes, I am more interested in reading some ancient DNA papers from Slovakia all the way to Russia rather than another British paper but Harvard don't seem to be going in that direction. I want to know the relationship between Corded Ware and Beaker.

I ran another model for you with Slavic_Bohemia:RISE569* added. See this map for locations of Beaker references:

26544

"distance%=2.1728"
Slovakian average [5 samples]
Slavic_Bohemia,58.4
Beaker_S_Germany_W_Czechia,36.6
Beaker_N_Hungary,4.4
LN_Sweden,0.6

*RISE569, Early Slavic, 660-770 calCE
Located northwest of Prague: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=49.98161038688405%2C14.219729150270268&z=10

Tomenable
10-08-2018, 03:50 AM
According to this SCY009 from Starosillya near Cherkasy was R1b:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15549-Scythian-U152-L2-Sample

Actually, Starosillya is located in the area of Chernoles culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture

^^^ It is identified with "Scythian Farmers" from Herodotus:

http://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Eastern_and_Central_Europe_around_750_BC.png

Location of SCY009 compared to the archeological cultures:

https://i.imgur.com/ukATNhu.png

Other possibilities:

The Βουδίνοι / Budínoi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

And the Νευροί / Neuri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri

=====

Similarity map for SCY009 based on Eurogenes K36 results:

https://i.postimg.cc/370qtT17/Screen_Hunter_2578_Oct._05_12.57.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1chkqvZ.jpg


Slightly off topic, but too many knowledgeable Slavic folks to not ask it here: The Scythian sample from northern Ukraine that is P312+ L2+ and plots with modern day Poles... he would have spoken an Eastern Indo-Iranian language?

This guy is not Scythian Proper but rather "Scythan Farmer" from Chernoles culture:

http://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/


The Scythian-Farmers seem to be identical with the archaeological culture known as Chernoles, which has been identified with the Iron Age Slavs.

MitchellSince1893
10-08-2018, 05:02 AM
From the link you provided, the Chernoles culture was ca. 1025–700 BC. SCY009 is 768-431 BC with a mid point of 600 BC, so he may have lived after the Chernoles Culture.

Scythia circa 700-600 BC seems to cover the area of SCY009 according to these maps.

http://radiolemberg.com/media/k2/items/cache/086985afc4763c73294bbbaaa8046da1_XL.jpg

https://www.didyouknowdna.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/60/scythia_1.jpg

Michał
10-08-2018, 06:59 AM
From the link you provided, the Chernoles culture was ca. 1025–700 BC. SCY009 is 768-431 BC with a mid point of 600 BC, so he may have lived after the Chernoles Culture.

Scythia circa 700-600 BC seems to cover the area of SCY009 according to these maps.

Sample scy009 could still have represented some local post-Chernoles influences in the Scythian period, especially when knowing that Chernoles itself was strongly influenced by some Danubian populations, so this could explain his Celtic-like Y-DNA haplogroup. On the other hand, one cannot rule out some more recent (ie. post-Chernoles) admixture from the West. Here is a map from Eupedia where Celtic (Hallstatt>La Tene) influences are well seen in a region where scy009 was found:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Hallstatt_La_Tene_map.gif

MitchellSince1893
10-08-2018, 10:27 PM
Sample scy009 could still have represented some local post-Chernoles influences in the Scythian period, especially when knowing that Chernoles itself was strongly influenced by some Danubian populations, so this could explain his Celtic-like Y-DNA haplogroup. On the other hand, one cannot rule out some more recent (ie. post-Chernoles) admixture from the West. Here is a map from Eupedia where Celtic (Hallstatt>La Tene) influences are well seen in a region where scy009 was found:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Hallstatt_La_Tene_map.gif

While the La Tene Celts eventually made that Far East, this was after scy009’s time frame. I haven’t seen where the Celts were in the Ukraine until the 3rd century BC.



MIGRATION AND ETHNOGENESIS – Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region
MAY 1, 2016 / 11 COMMENTS
UD: Nov. 2017





This article (in: Материалы по Археологии и Истории Античного и Средневекового Крыма Археология, история, нумизматика, сфрагистика иэпиграфика. (Moscow State University) Севастополь Тюмень Нижневартовск 2015. pp. 50-58.) provides an overview of the latest linguistic, numismatic and archaeological evidence pertaining to the expansion of the La Tene culture into the area of modern Ukraine and the North Pontic region from the 3rd century BC onwards. A distinction is observed between the situation in western Ukraine where the process of Celtic migration / colonization is reflected in the archaeological evidence, and further east where the presence of Celtic “warrior bands” / mercenary groups has been identified. Testimony in ancient sources to the emergence of mixed Celto-Scythian populations in this area and their ultimate contribution to the complicated ethnogenesis of the early medieval peoples, including the Slavs, is also discussed.

But I’m the first to admit I’m no expert on the subject.

ADW_1981
10-09-2018, 03:48 PM
While the La Tene Celts eventually made that Far East, this was after scy009’s time frame. I haven’t seen where the Celts were in the Ukraine until the 3rd century BC.


Not an expert either but it's possible Celts or Celtic-like groups were that far east earlier than thought.

lehavre
01-17-2021, 09:14 PM
How common is R1b among West Slavic ethnic groups? Which subclades are the most common ones?

Myres 2010 study had 18.4% of R1b in Poland. The same study had 21.6% of R1b for Czechia and 16.2% for Slovakia.

Link to Myres 2010 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html

According to Myres 2010 the most common branch of R1b in Poland is U106 and in Czech Republic P312 predominates.

Among Lusatian Sorbs the percentage of R1b is 9.8% - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics

it's only some exotic ingredient in the Slavic R1a soup

rms2
01-26-2021, 10:06 PM
it's only some exotic ingredient in the Slavic R1a soup

Those percentages are too high to be considered "exotic".

lehavre
01-27-2021, 07:02 PM
Those percentages are too high to be considered "exotic".

exotic = of foreign origin, like Czars in Russia for example, it happens, sometimes, Scottish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Poland) settlements in Poland etc.

rms2
01-28-2021, 05:53 PM
exotic = of foreign origin, like Czars in Russia for example, it happens, sometimes, Scottish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Poland) settlements in Poland etc.

What Y-DNA haplogroups aren't exotic then?

alejandromb92
01-28-2021, 06:53 PM
I once knew a nice polishman that carried DF27, it might be from this scottish settlers you guys mentioned, or just east bell beakers.

lehavre
01-28-2021, 10:41 PM
What Y-DNA haplogroups aren't exotic then?

in the case of Poland? - R1a (newcomers) and some I1 which stayed here - predecessors, some like Karol Szajnocha in the book - Lechicki początek Polski claims that the name of Poles - Polacy (in Polish) came from: after (po) Lechites (Lachy/Lacy), and Lechites were I1
https://bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/dlibra/publication/35146

lehavre
01-28-2021, 10:44 PM
I once knew a nice polishman that carried DF27, it might be from this scottish settlers you guys mentioned, or just east bell beakers.

or from all those Sephardics and others?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#Eastern_Sephardim

rms2
01-28-2021, 10:44 PM
in the case of Poland? - R1a (newcomers) and some I1 which stayed here - predecessors, some like Karol Szajnocha in the book - Lechicki początek Polski claims that the name of Poles - Polacy (in Polish) came from: after (po) Lechites (Lachy/Lacy), and Lechites were I1
https://bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/dlibra/publication/35146

So, you're claiming those haplogroups were absolutely native to Poland, and not "exotic" in any way?

Besides, the word exotic means more than foreign. It also means something unusual or uncommon.

alejandromb92
01-29-2021, 09:25 AM
or from all those Sephardics and others?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#Eastern_Sephardim

I highly doubt that true sephardic people that migrated there carried R1b, or at least DF27, it's possible that some of them had it, but when i did a research a couple of years ago, they were J1/J2a/E1b/R-Z93, i think i saw like just 1 R1b non-specified clade, but i know that between them they might have some R-L51.

lehavre
01-29-2021, 05:40 PM
I highly doubt that true sephardic people that migrated there carried R1b, or at least DF27, it's possible that some of them had it, but when i did a research a couple of years ago, they were J1/J2a/E1b/R-Z93, i think i saw like just 1 R1b non-specified clade, but i know that between them they might have some R-L51.

according to Eupedia (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml) Sephardic R1b 13%, R1a 5%
and I highly believe there was waifus cheating in the past like nowadays

lehavre
01-29-2021, 05:46 PM
So, you're claiming those haplogroups were absolutely native to Poland, and not "exotic" in any way?

Besides, the word exotic means more than foreign. It also means something unusual or uncommon.

they (foreigners) can grow in other cultures, but will never understand the soul of different people, they will change (mainly for worse) the heart beating pf R1a folk, the same goes the other way, J2 in R1b country. it's rare thing, that positive cultural enriching, me think

rms2
01-29-2021, 06:47 PM
Hmmm . . .

I think you're mistaken to regard R1a as the only "native" Polish Y-DNA haplogroup and R1b in Poland as something foreign.

Ancient R1b-L51 in Polish Corded Ware is starting to accumulate. I don't know how many living descendants they have, but there you have R1b in ancient Poland.

R1b Corded Ware (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WhUiR1AoupXETsh0h9XocLKMq8ics4QrUl4m8BLf6t8/edit?usp=sharing)