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Tomenable
09-05-2018, 02:32 PM
Link to publication in Russian:

https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71

https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/download/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71/207/

It turns out that Vsevolod I (father of Vladimir Monomakh) was not a biological son of Yaroslav I the Wise, because his wife - Ingegerd of Sweden - cheated on him with king Olaf of Norway or with some varangian. The result of that NPE was N1c among his heirs. On the other hand, the original Rurikid Y-DNA was preserved among descendants of Izyaslav I, including for example princes of Turov. If these conclusions are correct then the original Y-DNA lineage of the early Rurikids was the typically Slavic I2a-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), most common among South and East Slavs.

I2a-Din was already found in sample Sunghir6 from Early Medieval Russia (1040-1220 AD):

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2017/10/04/science.aao1807.DC1/aao1807_Sikora_SM.pdf

Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden

I guess her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood

====

Update:

Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.

Vsevolod was born shortly after King Olaf departed back to Norway (his exile in Russia lasted for one year).

So there is a possibility of non-paternal event in N1c line. There is no similar story surrounding I2a line.

If Ingegerd did not cheat, then the only other option, is that Vsevolod was adopted, not her biological son.

Pylsteen
09-05-2018, 03:22 PM
That would be interesting (I do not read Russian). N1c is found in the descendants of Vsevolod (e.g. the Gagarin family), but also in his brother Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky). The FT-DNA project claims for this reason that N1c was already present in Yaroslav the Wise (unless of course Ingigerd cheated more than once).
Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since the descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
Is the I2a that the article discusses also found in lineages that do not descend from Iziaslav? that is, Rurikids that do not descend from Yaroslav the Wise?

Piquerobi
09-05-2018, 03:36 PM
Quite interesting, cuckoldry has definitely been around for a long time! :biggrin1:

Nibelung
09-05-2018, 03:49 PM
What? Rurikid N1c matches the Primary Chronicle account perfectly. Everyone knows that. I assume the "news" here is anti-Normanist fabrication intended delegitimize Swedish participation in the foundation of the Kievan Rus'.

Fake news.

Ruderico
09-05-2018, 03:58 PM
Man, this is a hilarious title, good bloody job

George
09-05-2018, 04:09 PM
Link to publication in Russian:

https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71

https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/download/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71/207/

It turns out that Vsevolod I (father of Vladimir Monomakh) was not a biological son of Yaroslav I the Wise, because his wife - Ingegerd of Sweden - cheated on him with some Varangian guy. The result of that non-paternal event was N1c among his heirs. On the other hand, the original Rurikid Y-DNA was preserved among descendants of Izyaslav I, including for example princes of Turov. If these conclusions are correct then the original Y-DNA lineage of the early Rurikids was the typically Slavic I2a-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), most common among South and East Slavs.

I2a-Din was already found in sample Sunghir6 from Early Medieval Russia (1040-1220 AD):

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2017/10/04/science.aao1807.DC1/aao1807_Sikora_SM.pdf

Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden

I guess her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood


I have a sneaking feeling that we are far from knowing "for sure" who cheated on who and when. ;) Especially if you basically "guess backwards" so to speak, and with no guarantee whatsoever as to "non-paternal" events at any point prior to the first firmly dated aDNA..

George
09-05-2018, 04:27 PM
What? Rurikid N1c matches the Primary Chronicle account perfectly. Everyone knows that. I assume the "news" here is anti-Normanist fabrication intended delegitimize Swedish participation in the foundation of the Kievan Rus'.

Fake news.


The early "dynastic" account of the Primary Chronicle was concocted by Nestor of the Caves Monastery in Kyiv in the late 11th c. It replaced an earlier account by Metropolitan Ilarion (which survives in his "Slovo" of 1049) and which makes Igor (Ingvar) the originator of the dynasty. Rurik was still irrelevant then (and continued to be largely so even after Nestor, judging by the extreme paucity of princes who bore this name). In any case "Old Igor" (as per Ilarion) could have been N1c. And other possibles (though I2a would rank as the lowest probable). If we don't trust "Saint Olga" (should we? :\) the not easily resolvable problem could have begun even then....

Nibelung
09-05-2018, 04:49 PM
The early "dynastic" account of the Primary Chronicle was concocted by Nestor of the Caves Monastery in Kyiv in the late 11th c. It replaced an earlier account by Metropolitan Ilarion (which survives in his "Slovo" of 1049) and which makes Igor (Ingvar) the originator of the dynasty. Rurik was still irrelevant then (and continued to be largely so even after Nestor, judging by the extreme paucity of princes who bore this name). In any case "Old Igor" (as per Ilarion) could have been N1c. And other possibles (though I2a would rank as the lowest probable). If we don't trust "Saint Olga" (should we? :\) the not easily resolvable problem could have begun even then....

Founders' names often go unrepeated. It depends on the family tradition. In any event, Rurikovich N is a fully Germanized branch specific to Sweden.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

I didn't know about this Ingvar, and as far as I2 I've nothing against that. We'll learn what's going on with the Hohenzollerns eventually :) It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N in this particular genealogical context, and wants to sabotage the entire thing in favour of another Slavic clade when that's hardly necessary for Kievan Rus'. Everyone contributed, the Slavs most of all in the long run.

Tomenable
09-05-2018, 04:50 PM
This is the exact subclade of I2a-Din which the Rurikids had, Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/

Regarding Rurikid origins:

"The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be 'one of the Slavic peoples'. Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so 'Slavicization' argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971. The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by 'Romanovs' (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves."

As for Ingegerd's lover:

Real biological father of Vsevolod could actually be not just some Varangian, but even king St. Olaf of Norway himself, so his sainthood can be doubted as well. Moreover, the exact N1c subclade of Monomakh's line is distinctively Scandinavian. As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged also in Poland-Lithuania.

Edit:


I have a sneaking feeling that we are far from knowing "for sure" who cheated on who and when. ;) Especially if you basically "guess backwards" so to speak, and with no guarantee whatsoever as to "non-paternal" events at any point prior to the first firmly dated aDNA..

Well Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.


That would be interesting (I do not read Russian). N1c is found in the descendants of Vsevolod (e.g. the Gagarin family), but also in his brother Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky). The FT-DNA project claims for this reason that N1c was already present in Yaroslav the Wise (unless of course Ingigerd cheated more than once).
Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since the descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
Is the I2a that the article discusses also found in lineages that do not descend from Iziaslav? that is, Rurikids that do not descend from Yaroslav the Wise?

It is known that Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left, whereas there are no such stories surrounding the Izyaslavich branch at all.

Those R1a bearers are addressed in the study. Their family lineages were modified in 16th century to be placed better at the Tsar's court. So they are not real Rurikids.

All the modern Rurikids tested are from two sons (well, the latter most likely isn't) of Yaroslav the Wise: Iziaslav and Vsevolod (and from his son Vladimir Monomakh).

N1c in descendants of Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky) descend from Yuri's brother Mstislav, who was son of Vladimir Monomakh, who himself was Vsevolod's son, so there is nothing to be explained there and only one non-paternity event is enough.


It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N

Not really, this Russian study specifically says that R1a are not real Rurikids but nobles who falsified their genealogy to link themselves to the dynasty. So we are only left with I2a and N1c. Does King Olaf II Haraldsson have any known living descendants or relatives with the same Y-DNA?

Is it possible to check if King Olaf of Norway was indeed N1c?

George
09-05-2018, 05:34 PM
Founders' names often go unrepeated. It depends on the family tradition. In any event, Rurikovich N is a fully Germanized branch specific to Sweden.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

I didn't know about this Ingvar, and as far as I2 I've nothing against that. We'll learn what's going on with the Hohenzollerns eventually :) It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N in this particular genealogical context, and wants to sabotage the entire thing in favour of another Slavic clade when that's hardly necessary for Kievan Rus'. Everyone contributed, the Slavs most of all in the long run.

Igor is the slavicized Ingvar. We won't settle the DNA business until we can test some older bones. But there is no doubt about the Scandinavian contribution to the emergence of the original Rus. Thanks to the association of local allies , both Finnic and Slavic. One theory (predating both Nestor and Ilarion) stated s.a. 882 in the Primary Chronicle was that "Rus" was the name of the warrior band which conquered Kyiv led by Oleg, and which included Scandinavians, Ugro-Finns, and Slavs. Constantine Porphyrogenitus gives both the Scandinavian and Slavic names of the Dnipro Falls in his 952 treatise. After 944, the Primary Chronicle restricts the name "Rus" (as an ethnonym) to the Polany tribe of today's Central Ukraine ). Tjere is some similarity to what happened in Bulgaria, with incoming steppe "Bulgars" giving their name to the whole as they became linguistically and culturally Slavicized).

George
09-05-2018, 05:38 PM
This is the exact subclade of I2a-Din which the Rurikids had, Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/

Regarding Rurikid origins:

"The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be 'one of the Slavic peoples'. Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so 'Slavicization' argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971. The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by 'Romanovs' (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves."

As for Ingegerd's lover:

Real biological father of Vsevolod could actually be not just some Varangian, but even king St. Olaf of Norway himself, so his sainthood can be doubted as well. Moreover, the exact N1c subclade of Monomakh's line is distinctively Scandinavian. As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged also in Poland-Lithuania.

The Arab term "Saqaliba" (borrowed from the Byzantines) was used more broadly than just "Slavs". It included steppe Turks, Hungarians, Ugro-Finns, and Northmen...

Prusvonderburg
09-06-2018, 12:48 AM
Very unusual post here that should considered inappropriate as well as certain comments posted in the thread, I would assume.

There is quite high level discussion usually regarding aDNA on this forum since I started reading posts around 2 weeks ago when the kids went back to school. I have to say however as being 1/8 Russian and 1/16 Swedish I am reading appauled by some accusations without any aDNA to back up the outlandish claims to rewrite Slavic and Norse history.

Without any proofs of aDNA, sounds like TMZ gossiping dude.

Prusvonderburg
09-06-2018, 12:51 AM
Weak jab at Slavic noble lines I will add.

Tomenable
09-06-2018, 12:40 PM
Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.

Vsevolod was born shortly after King Olaf departed back to Norway (his exile in Russia lasted for one year).

So there is a possibility of non-paternal event in N1c line. There is no similar story surrounding I2a line.

If Ingegerd did not cheat, then the only other option, is that Vsevolod was adopted, not her biological son.


That would be interesting (I do not read Russian). N1c is found in the descendants of Vsevolod (e.g. the Gagarin family), but also in his brother Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky). The FT-DNA project claims for this reason that N1c was already present in Yaroslav the Wise (unless of course Ingigerd cheated more than once).
Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since the descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
Is the I2a that the article discusses also found in lineages that do not descend from Iziaslav? that is, Rurikids that do not descend from Yaroslav the Wise?

It is known that Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left, whereas there are no such stories surrounding the Izyaslavich branch at all.

Those R1a bearers are addressed in the study. Their family lineages were modified in 16th century to be placed better at the Tsar's court. So they are not real Rurikids.

All the modern Rurikids tested are from two sons (well, the latter most likely isn't) of Yaroslav the Wise: Iziaslav and Vsevolod (and from his son Vladimir Monomakh).

N1c in descendants of Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky) descend from Yuri's brother Mstislav, who was son of Vladimir Monomakh, who himself was Vsevolod's son, so there is nothing to be explained there and only one non-paternity event is enough.

Tomenable
09-06-2018, 01:09 PM
I have a sneaking feeling that we are far from knowing "for sure" who cheated on who and when. ;) Especially if you basically "guess backwards" so to speak, and with no guarantee whatsoever as to "non-paternal" events at any point prior to the first firmly dated aDNA..

Well Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf II left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.

Tomenable
09-06-2018, 01:24 PM
It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N

Not really, this Russian study specifically says that R1a are not real Rurikids but nobles who falsified their genealogy to link themselves to the dynasty. So we are only left with I2a and N1c. Does King Olaf II Haraldsson have any known living descendants or relatives with the same Y-DNA?

Is it possible to check if King Olaf of Norway was indeed N1c?

Pylsteen
09-06-2018, 01:55 PM
Then the trees we used differ from each other; it's difficult since there are many branches;
this is the line that I used for Massalsky's ancestry.

Yaroslav the Wise
Sviatoslav II of Kiev
Oleg I of Chernigov
Vsevolod II of Kiev
Sviatoslav III of Kiev
Vsevolod IV of Kiev
Mikhail of Chernigov, father of (amongst others):
a) Mstislav of Karachev (from which N1c Massalsky stem)
b) Yuri of Torusa (from which R1a Obolensky stem).

these are other Mstislav and Yuri than the sons of Vladimir Monomakh.
it is not 100% certain whether this Mikhail was Yuri and Mstislav's (lawful) father though.

In anycase, some of the lines that claim to be Rurikid either contain a non-paternal event or have a false tree.

George
09-06-2018, 02:25 PM
Well Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf II left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.

But you see, the point is that the only reliable test would be that of ancient bones, not that of the recorded descendants. If you have hundreds of years and large number of generations separating the actually tested descendants from their recorded ancestors, you have no guarantee that everything in between was genuinely "legitimate". And "stories" are not good enough. Frankly I would be extremely surprised if Yaroslav were I2a. Unless you imagine a story that Volodymyr was born not of Svyatoslav but that some other gentleman who had a go at his mother, or even that Olga had a tryst with some local chap while Igor was on vacation. Or..or… or... There's just no certainty. What goes for Ingigerd (in my opinion highly unlikely) can go for anybody.

msmarjoribanks
09-06-2018, 02:41 PM
Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.

Even assuming the lines are unquestionable, you'd have to do a lot more to place the NPE in the 11th century. How many people were tested and where do the supposed descendants of Vsevolod last have common assumed patrilineal ancestors and descendants of Izyaslav last have common assumed patrilineal ancestors.

Tomenable
09-06-2018, 04:18 PM
But you see, the point is that the only reliable test would be that of ancient bones, not that of the recorded descendants. If you have hundreds of years and large number of generations separating the actually tested descendants from their recorded ancestors, you have no guarantee that everything in between was genuinely "legitimate". And "stories" are not good enough. Frankly I would be extremely surprised if Yaroslav were I2a. Unless you imagine a story that Volodymyr was born not of Svyatoslav but that some other gentleman who had a go at his mother, or even that Olga had a tryst with some local chap while Igor was on vacation. Or..or… or... There's just no certainty. What goes for Ingigerd (in my opinion highly unlikely) can go for anybody.

If we assume that NPE or many NPEs happened later, we should have many different Y-DNA lineages instead of just two.

All of tested descendants of Izyaslav are I2a and the same subclade, they do not belong to several different haplogroups.

Tomenable
09-06-2018, 04:22 PM
In anycase, some of the lines that claim to be Rurikid either contain a non-paternal event or have a false tree.

Yeah but the core and vast majority of Rurikid lineages belong to just 2 subclades, one of I2a and one of N1c.

And then you have minor lineages including few different subclades of R1a which are mostly due to false trees.

George
09-06-2018, 04:42 PM
If we assume that NPE or many NPEs happened later, we should have many different Y-DNA lineages instead of just two.

All of tested descendants of Izyaslav are I2a and the same subclade, they do not belong to several different haplogroups.


Re 1. Not necessarily.

Re 2. Doesn't matter. The objection still stands.

Using Ockhamist logic. I admit that your point is possible. I admit that a good case can be made for it to be probable. But it is not "demonstrated" (which means that it is not at all verified and irrefutable truth)

Tomenable
09-06-2018, 10:13 PM
So Yngvi was N1c? :)

Olaf II of Norway = apparently he had N1c haplogroup,
was son of Harald Grenske, who
was son of Gudrød Bjørnsson, who
was son of Bjørn Farmann, who
was son of Harald Fairhair, who
was son of Halfdan the Black, who
was son of Gudrød the Hunter, who
was son of Halfdan the Mild, who
was son of Eystein Halfdansson, who
was son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who
was son of Olof Trätälja, who
was son of Ingjald illråde, who
was son of Anund, who
was son of Yngvar Harra, who
was son of Eysteinn, who
was son of Eadgils (in Beowulf), who
was son of Óttarr vendilkráka (Ohthere in Beowulf), who
was son of Egil Vendelkråke (Ongentheow in Beowulf), who
was son of Aun the Old, who
was son of Jorund, who
was son of Yngvi, who
was son of Alrek, who
was son of Agne, who
was son of Dag the Wise , who
was son of Dyggvi, who
was son of Domar, who
was son of Domalde, who
was son of Visbur, who
was son of Vanlandi, who
was son of Sveigðir, who
was son of Fjölnir, who
was son of Freyr, who
was son of Njörðr, who
was son of Yngvi = founder of the Yngling dynasty, N1c haplogroup :)

msmarjoribanks
09-06-2018, 10:26 PM
If we assume that NPE or many NPEs happened later, we should have many different Y-DNA lineages instead of just two.

Depends on who is being tested to establish those two lineages and when their lineages diverged. I don't know what the paper says about that, you'd have to explain.

Example: if we have three descendants of Vsevolod and three descendants of Izyaslav, what are the last common ancestors of each of those groups. Vsevolod and Izyaslav? Or someone later? Ideally you'd have descendants from MULTIPLE sons of each to be able to make the claim.

Maybe that standard is met in some way, but so far it has not been explained (I'd read the paper, but don't have the language skills).

Tomenable
09-12-2018, 05:26 PM
The Arab term "Saqaliba" (borrowed from the Byzantines) was used more broadly than just "Slavs". It included steppe Turks, Hungarians, Ugro-Finns, and Northmen...

https://www.jassa.org/?p=1171

"The Rus and the Saqaliba go there (...)" - why did Ibrahim distinguish them?

Magyars were also distinguished in Ibrahim's account - he called them Turks.

George
09-12-2018, 06:56 PM
https://www.jassa.org/?p=1171

"The Rus and the Saqaliba go there (...)" - why did Ibrahim distinguish them?

Magyars were also distinguished in Ibrahim's account - he called them Turks.


Perhaps because he was actually "on the spot" so to speak, unlike other major Arab and Persian sources.

Kanenas
09-12-2018, 07:46 PM
Igor is the slavicized Ingvar. We won't settle the DNA business until we can test some older bones. But there is no doubt about the Scandinavian contribution to the emergence of the original Rus. Thanks to the association of local allies , both Finnic and Slavic. One theory (predating both Nestor and Ilarion) stated s.a. 882 in the Primary Chronicle was that "Rus" was the name of the warrior band which conquered Kyiv led by Oleg, and which included Scandinavians, Ugro-Finns, and Slavs. Constantine Porphyrogenitus gives both the Scandinavian and Slavic names of the Dnipro Falls in his 952 treatise. After 944, the Primary Chronicle restricts the name "Rus" (as an ethnonym) to the Polany tribe of today's Central Ukraine ). Tjere is some similarity to what happened in Bulgaria, with incoming steppe "Bulgars" giving their name to the whole as they became linguistically and culturally Slavicized).

To me the Rus names seem Uralic and more specifically Hungarian related.

Compare 'Leanti' with the Hungarian verb leont 'pour off'.*

Aeifor with Hungarian a fészek 'the nest' ('nest' in proto-Uralic *pesä, Eastern Khanty pəl, Tundra Enets fire, Komi poz etc.)

Oulvorsi with Hungarian verb elválaszt 'to separate, to divide'*

Varouforos to Hungarian fertő 'morass, quagmire, swamp, marsh' and a word 'var-' (?) that should have meant 'great'/'large' (Compare Finnish avara, Estonia avar 'spacious')

*We should take into account Hungarian and proto-Uralic nominalizing suffixes because those words were most likely nouns.

The meanings I propose are consistent with the Greek text (the meaning of the Slavonic names at least). I will explain in a future post probably. Or not.

I don't believe my methodology is very scientific but the methodology of the Normanists is not scientific at all, so whatever.

The name Gelandri is not a Rus name according to the text, even though the Normanists include it for some reason. The name Essoupi is uncertain because it appears to have been the same in both languages which seems weird.

Geborgenheit
09-12-2018, 10:13 PM
Maybe that standard is met in some way, but so far it has not been explained (I'd read the paper, but don't have the language skills).

The paper seems to provide some wild speculations.

I trust Russian geneticist Oleg Balanovsky and other geneticists from the Russian Academy of Sciences saying that Rurikid come from a rare subclade of the haplogroup N1c1 which can be found in Sweden.

davidwhowden
05-22-2019, 12:33 AM
So Yngvi was N1c? :)

Olaf II of Norway = apparently he had N1c haplogroup,
was son of Harald Grenske, who
was son of Gudrød Bjørnsson, who
was son of Bjørn Farmann, who
was son of Harald Fairhair, who
was son of Halfdan the Black, who
was son of Gudrød the Hunter, who
was son of Halfdan the Mild, who
was son of Eystein Halfdansson, who
was son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who
was son of Olof Trätälja, who
was son of Ingjald illråde, who
was son of Anund, who
was son of Yngvar Harra, who
was son of Eysteinn, who
was son of Eadgils (in Beowulf), who
was son of Óttarr vendilkráka (Ohthere in Beowulf), who
was son of Egil Vendelkråke (Ongentheow in Beowulf), who
was son of Aun the Old, who
was son of Jorund, who
was son of Yngvi, who
was son of Alrek, who
was son of Agne, who
was son of Dag the Wise , who
was son of Dyggvi, who
was son of Domar, who
was son of Domalde, who
was son of Visbur, who
was son of Vanlandi, who
was son of Sveigðir, who
was son of Fjölnir, who
was son of Freyr, who
was son of Njörðr, who
was son of Yngvi = founder of the Yngling dynasty, N1c haplogroup :)

Cant see much reason to believe Olav II was N1c. Some supposed bones of Olav II is tested and belongs to I-M170 and probably I1.
But it is not proven that it is his bones and we dont know for sure if the lineage up to Harald Hårfagre is correct and certainly not up to Yngvi..

Tomenable
07-18-2019, 10:48 PM
DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din and not N1c:

Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and ca. 25% South Euro (Table S6):

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405/DC3/embed/media-3.xlsx?download=true

=====

Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.

Tomenable
07-18-2019, 11:40 PM
Coming back to Gleb's autosomal DNA (his grandmother was Ingegerd):

Ingegerd's mother would be "Polish-like":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_of_the_Obotrites

Ingegerd's paternal grandmother as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99tos%C5%82awa

So Ingegerd could be >3/4 "Polish-like" autosomally, not "Swedish-like"...

Pribislav
07-19-2019, 12:14 AM
DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din and not N1c:

Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and ca. 25% South Euro (Table S6):

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405/DC3/embed/media-3.xlsx?download=true

=====

Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.

IMO I2-Y3120/Din is closer to be the "original" haplogroup of Rurikids since Gleb was grandson of Yaroslav I the Wise (2nd generation), and Izyaslav Ingvarovich only 7th generation, which is a lot more time for non-paternal event to happen. Here's Rurikid family tree with paths to both Gleb and Izyaslav:

31866

Tomenable
07-23-2019, 11:02 AM
Right now this is what the evidence suggests:

Yaroslav the Wise and Ingegerd had three sons, and their descendants belong to:

Izyaslav - his modern descendants are I2a
Sviatoslav - no descendants survived to present-day (?), but Gleb (his son) was I2a (per this study)
Vsevolod - his modern descendants are N1c

^^^
And Vsevolod's N1c is the suspected product of Ingegerd's romance with Olaf II Haraldsson.

IMO testing Olaf II Haraldsson's descendants (or his own bones, if they exist) should follow.

=====

But I understand that "Christian supremacists" will deny that Saint Anna could ever cheat: ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood

rms2
07-23-2019, 11:48 AM
. . .

But I understand that "Christian supremacists" will deny that Saint Anna could ever cheat: ;)

. . .

What is a "Christian Supremacist"?

I realize you have a winking emoji there, but that doesn't prevent that remark from being offensive (and it is).

Most Christians realize that all humans are sinners and fallible: the Bible is replete with examples, even, and maybe especially, among the saints.

Most of us are "God Supremacists".

JoeyP37
07-23-2019, 12:57 PM
Good job, rms2, I just gently reproved Tomenable at Eurogenes about that...I think that if you could prove Rurik was I2a it would put an end to the Normanist theory. I2a-Din was even more so than R1a connected to Slavs, mainly because R1a is just more cosmopolitan. Vandals brought it to Sardinia, Scythians to Siberia, and Iranian tribes gave it to the Jewish people, where one clade is a major Ashkenazi Levite lineage.

Pylsteen
07-23-2019, 01:50 PM
Sviatoslav has living N1c descendants (e.g. the Massalsky family) as I made clear earlier in thread.

lineage:

I Yaroslav the Wise
II Sviatoslav II of Kiev
III Oleg I of Chernigov
IV Vsevolod II of Kiev
V Sviatoslav III of Kiev
VI Vsevolod IV of Kiev
VII Mikhail of Chernigov, father of (amongst others):
a) Mstislav of Karachev (from which N1c Massalsky)
b) Yuri of Torusa (here a NPE must have occurred to account for R1a Obolensky (or Yuri was not Mikhails son at all).

see further Rurikids (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm).

mihaitzateo
07-29-2019, 05:21 PM
Well, a simple question, if Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and ca. 25% South Euro how would that be possible if his mother was either Scando either Polishor a mix,as DNA?
It means his father had 50% South Euro.
So actually the child that was born with a non Slav or non Scando father might be Gleb Svyatoslavovich.
How could Yaroslav the Wise have so much South Euro admixture?

BroderTuck
08-14-2019, 05:47 AM
Tomenable: If you have a different lineage for the Massalskys than the one shown by pylsteen and http://trog.narod.ru/articles/Genetic_study_of_the_Rurik_Dynasty.pdf can you please list it?

George
08-14-2019, 01:19 PM
Right now this is what the evidence suggests:

Yaroslav the Wise and Ingegerd had three sons, and their descendants belong to:

Izyaslav - his modern descendants are I2a
Sviatoslav - no descendants survived to present-day (?), but Gleb (his son) was I2a (per this study)
Vsevolod - his modern descendants are N1c

^^^
And Vsevolod's N1c is the suspected product of Ingegerd's romance with Olaf II Haraldsson.

IMO testing Olaf II Haraldsson's descendants (or his own bones, if they exist) should follow.

=====

But I understand that "Christian supremacists" will deny that Saint Anna could ever cheat: ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood

With the wonderful (and irrefutable ;) "joker is wild" scenario, I'm waiting for the suggestion that the mother of Ingvar/Igor (the husband of Olga and father of Sviatoslav) had a quiet romance with some I2a warrior back in Pskov or Stara Ladoga. :beerchug:

Johane Derite
10-07-2020, 12:40 AM
Yaroslav Osmomysl (The Eight-Minded) Colourised

He is E-V13, isn't he also part of this dynasty?


https://i.imgur.com/L1zDYkj.jpg

Johane Derite
10-07-2020, 11:34 AM
Yaroslav Osmomysl (The Eight-Minded) Colourised

He is E-V13, isn't he also part of this dynasty?




Link to information about him being E-V13. Interesting possibility that he is related to the Viking E-V13, which would support as being Rurik dynasty.

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,10710.0.html