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Rathna
10-30-2013, 08:54 AM
298933 Haddad (Youssef Abdalla Haddad, 1877-1945) Lebanon R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

Glad you have written to me. I have spoken a lot about your haplotype, and my thinking is that it isn't R-M269, but probably R-V88+. I have found many mistakes and from so long about the FTDNA tests, one is yours. Even though your haplotype isn't in line with other R-V88+, for instance DYS454=11 and not 12, but you have many markers values in line with the R-V88+:
DYS385=12-12
DYS464=12-12-15-17
DYS438=11.
I think it would be interesting to test you farther, for instance by Geno 2.0, which would be the best, or the ŕ la carte V88, and if you were positive (+), it would demonstrate you aren't M269+.
There is also the possibility that you are R1a* (M420*), for that I think that to test Geno 2.0 would be the first choice. If you want, we could promote a subscription I could participate to. If you were confirmed M269*, the thing would be extremely interesting for our haplogroup history.
Let me know. In this case your haplotype could be ancient in Middle East and wouldn't presuppose a recent European origin.

Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni (Rathna)

P.S. I'll post this on the forum, because it has a scientific meaning for we all and this could awaken to your case.

Rathna
10-30-2013, 09:50 AM
The unique close samples I found on YHRD with DYS438=11 are these:
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12,13 11 11 15 18 15 15 24 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12,13 11 12 15 18 15 15 24 12 19 28 12 12 15 10 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12,13 11 12 15 18 15 15 24 12 21 27 12 12 15 10 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
Two are these:
1 of 601 Rostock, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 218 Finland [Finnish] Eurasian - Uralic-Yukaghir Europe
and probably, given their origin, it is reliable this time the hg R1a1.
The other with DYS439=11 is this:
1 of 623 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

If so, an European origin amongst the Christian Lebanese becomes possible again.

GTC
10-30-2013, 10:20 AM
This fellow has been advised many times by numerous people here and elsewhere to get himself SNP tested.

So, now it's over to him to actually do that and let us all know what eventuates.

Rathna
10-30-2013, 11:42 AM
The suggestion of lgmayka on another thread is good:

VR8N4 Haddad Zahlé, Brazil
13 23 14 11 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12 12 15 17 10 11 19 23 15 17 17 17 35 37 12 11
ZMFMV Kahveci Unknown
13 23 15 11 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12 12 16 17 10 11 23 23 15 16 18 17 36 38 12 11

but which R1a subclade? R-M420* or a subclade?

GTC
10-30-2013, 12:47 PM
We can ponder this question until the cows come home ... or until Mr Haddad orders a SNP test.

GoldenHind
10-30-2013, 06:02 PM
I can confirm that Mr. Haddad's personal pages at FTDNA show he has tested M269+, though obviously I do not know if this might be an error of some kind.

TigerMW
10-31-2013, 12:01 AM
I can confirm that Mr. Haddad's personal pages at FTDNA show he has tested M269+, though obviously I do not know if this might be an error of some kind.

Yes, FTDNA has him as M269+ tested.


We can ponder this question until the cows come home ... or until Mr Haddad orders a SNP test.

We need at least one or two more tests. L23 for sure but this might be a case where Geno 2 is better because that could also invalidate the M269 test, or validate it.

There may be a language issue, but I can contact him. Does anyone want to donate money to have him tested? If so, let me know and for what.

GTC
10-31-2013, 12:24 AM
There may be a language issue, but I can contact him. Does anyone want to donate money to have him tested? If so, let me know and for what.

Before trying to build a fund, I suggest you first find out if he will actually commit to further SNP testing.

Geno 2 is probably best value for money at the moment, although rumor is that FTDNA will be announcing some new stuff at their upcoming conference so may be wise to wait and see what comes of that.

Rathna
10-31-2013, 05:03 AM
Does anyone want to donate money to have him tested? If so, let me know and for what.

Mike, it seems to me that to wait as GTC says should be the first choice. Second I think that R1a guys should be more interested than us R1b to the matter. By the comparison with Kahveci it seems to me more and more that Haddad is a R1a1*, not R1a* (which would interest me for some theories I have expressed about it), an R1a1* like Shpakowsky, with DYS392=13 like R1a*, but linked to the expansion of this subclade in a second phase. If I think that R1a* is above Western European/Alpine, R1a1* should be linked to Central Europe after the Younger Dryas phase. But just for this I wouldn't exclude an origin of these Lebanese from European people at the Crusaders time.

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 10:01 AM
Hi, i dont order snp yet i waitingy family Finder results. About my paternal line? Rathna, so you think that i'm not u106 or p312 of r1b subclade? And about v88 that you told before? In ysearch i fit close of one r1a (11 genetic distance) but many r1b p312 or u106( up 13 genetic distance) in 37 markers), and any v88 this mean something?

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 10:10 AM
Hi, i dont order snp yet i waitingy family Finder results. About my paternal line? Rathna, so you think that i'm not u106 or p312 of r1b subclade? And about v88 that you told before? In ysearch i fit close of one r1a (11 genetic distance) but many r1b p312 or u106( up 13 genetic distance) in 37 markers), and any v88 this mean something?

Rathna
10-31-2013, 10:48 AM
Hi, i dont order snp yet i waitingy family Finder results. About my paternal line? Rathna, so you think that i'm not u106 or p312 of r1b subclade? And about v88 that you told before? In ysearch i fit close of one r1a (11 genetic distance) but many r1b p312 or u106( up 13 genetic distance) in 37 markers), and any v88 this mean something?

Hi Haddad, I did my first hypothesis about your haplotype, probably before any other, when I spoke of two haplotypes published on the "R1b1 FTDNA Project". I hypothesized that one, blalb, was a R-V88+, in fact it was immediately put amongst them; about yours I said that it too could be R-V88+, but with some doubts, in fact it had some markers values of R-V88+ but others not, above all DYS454=11 and not 12 and YCAII=19-23, which is the carachteristic of R1b and R1a but not of R-V88+.
I am after convinced that your haplotype is very likely an R1a1*, hypothesis done by lgmayka and it came out only by a comparison on Ysearch: the link with ZMFMV Kahveci is very strong. You shouldn't look at a simple comparison, but if the matches are on very slow mutating markers. A GD of 11 could be very different in its quality and yours is very strong with Kahveci who has probably your same origin: Christian Lebanese, where the link with Europeans is stronger than about Muslim Lebanese.
Anyway it isn't said that you descend from an European Y. If you are actually a R1a1*, you could descend also from an ancient R1a1* expanded to Middle East many thousands of years ago. It will be able to be understood that only by a Full Y test, where we could count all the SNPs.
I think that Family Finder won't say anything interesting about you, because also if your Y was European many centuries ago, now at the autosomal level there won't be pretty anything. I'd find more interesting other tests about your Y, if it is important for you to know this: above all Geno 2.0 which could say something definite about your haplogroup and the upgrade to 67 (or better to 111) markers for understanding the link with other European R1b1*. Definitive would be the Full Y.

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 12:13 PM
Hi Haddad, I did my first hypothesis about your haplotype, probably before any other, when I spoke of two haplotypes published on the "R1b1 FTDNA Project". I hypothesized that one, blalb, was a R-V88+, in fact it was immediately put amongst them; about yours I said that it too could be R-V88+, but with some doubts, in fact it had some markers values of R-V88+ but others not, above all DYS454=11 and not 12 and YCAII=19-23, which is the carachteristic of R1b and R1a but not of R-V88+.
I am after convinced that your haplotype is very likely an R1a1*, hypothesis done by lgmayka and it came out only by a comparison on Ysearch: the link with ZMFMV Kahveci is very strong. You shouldn't look at a simple comparison, but if the matches are on very slow mutating markers. A GD of 11 could be very different in its quality and yours is very strong with Kahveci who has probably your same origin: Christian Lebanese, where the link with Europeans is stronger than about Muslim Lebanese.
Anyway it isn't said that you descend from an European Y. If you are actually a R1a1*, you could descend also from an ancient R1a1* expanded to Middle East many thousands of years ago. It will be able to be understood that only by a Full Y test, where we could count all the SNPs.
I think that Family Finder won't say anything interesting about you, because also if your Y was European many centuries ago, now at the autosomal level there won't be pretty anything. I'd find more interesting other tests about your Y, if it is important for you to know this: above all Geno 2.0 which could say something definite about your haplogroup and the upgrade to 67 (or better to 111) markers for understanding the link with other European R1b1*. Definitive would be the Full Y.

Yes, and about P312 or U106 what you think? You think that i'm in european group of R1b1a2? Other thing i see many many arabs in R1a haplogroup. Why you think that my R1a are european? thanks

TigerMW
10-31-2013, 01:21 PM
Yes, and about P312 or U106 what you think? You think that i'm in european group of R1b1a2? Other thing i see many many arabs in R1a haplogroup. Why you think that my R1a are european? thanks

Ahaddad. Everyone has various hypotheses, but we do find haplogroup R1, including R1a and R1b spread across Europe, the Near East and into Central Asia. The frequencies change by region but we have no reason to think that R1 hasn't been in these areas for a long time.

I think you have to consider that FTDNA has reported you as M269+, which is R1b1a2. Do you have any reason to think that is incorrect?

Rathna
10-31-2013, 01:38 PM
Ahaddad. Do you have any reason to think that is incorrect?

I think it is incorrect, and gave many samples of that. blalb, on the R1b1 FTDNA project, tested like M269 by FTDNA, is put now amongst the R-V88+. I did also the hypothesis that M269 may have occurred more than one time in hg. R, but it is to verify.
Anyway I make you note what happened for Hg. R1b1: many subclades were formed by the administrators by using P25 as it was on the same plane of L388/L389. This has been demonstrated false. So far only Raza and Joshi has been excluded from these subclades, but all the others should be verified, because no one of them had been tested for L389, but only for P25. Only Cluster A1 has some people verified (by Geno 2.0 for instance): Savage and DeMao. I am waiting of further tests about Mangino, Marchesi (tested so far M269) and many others.
And I don't want to say other.

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 01:53 PM
I need save money to test in Geno 2.0. Well i don't know much about markers and numbers of alleles but that i know i'm lebanese background and we never know about european heritage. Maybe true but i don't see any R1b1a2 with my fast markers like 464 for example. I don't think if i'm R1b1a2 i fit in group P312 or U106. I think make more sense i'm in Ht 35 if i R1b1a2 or maybe i'm V88 or R1a..I don't know because i don't understand. but this predictor http://predictor.ydna.ru/ say that i'm V88 and other say R1b irish http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm

lgmayka
10-31-2013, 02:22 PM
I am after convinced that your haplotype is very likely an R1a1*, hypothesis done by lgmayka and it came out only by a comparison on Ysearch: the link with ZMFMV Kahveci is very strong.
I agree that the similarity with Kahveci is undeniable. The real question then is, Exactly what SNP results does Kahveci have? I will invite him to join the R1a1a and Subclades Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results).

I am skeptical of Haddad's M269+ result, for two reasons:
- FTDNA's Y-Hap-Backbone test has been known to give incorrect results on occasion.
- M269 may have occurred twice in human history.

I agree with others that Haddad should wait until FTDNA's conference next month, to see whether FTDNA or National Geographic announces a new product or a new version of an existing product. If not, Haddad could also order an upgrade to 67 markers if it goes on sale in late November, as it usually does.

R.Rocca
10-31-2013, 02:50 PM
I agree that the similarity with Kahveci is undeniable. The real question then is, Exactly what SNP results does Kahveci have? I will invite him to join the R1a1a and Subclades Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results).

I am skeptical of Haddad's M269+ result, for two reasons:
- FTDNA's Y-Hap-Backbone test has been known to give incorrect results on occasion.
- M269 may have occurred twice in human history.

I agree with others that Haddad should wait until FTDNA's conference next month, to see whether FTDNA or National Geographic announces a new product or a new version of an existing product. If not, Haddad could also order an upgrade to 67 markers if it goes on sale in late November, as it usually does.

That would be interesting. I'd be interested to hear what leads you to that conclusion?

Rathna
10-31-2013, 02:53 PM
The real question then is, Exactly what SNP results does Kahveci have?


You are best expert than me of hg. R1a, but it seems to me that the unique clusters with DYS392=13 are R1a* and R1a1*.

Rathna
10-31-2013, 02:59 PM
That would be interesting. I'd be interested to hear what leads you to that conclusion?

I did that hypothesis some time ago, because there are too many samples of people demonstrated after to belong to other subclades that FTDNA tested M269, and we cannot think that is always a mistake. The problem is that in this case M269 should have occurred more than one time, and this is unreliable:

blalb/M269 is actually V88+
Mangino/M269 would be L389+

and other case i found (amongst them also Marchesi of the Italy FTDNA Project you administrate).

Occam's razor would say: FTDNA's error.

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 03:02 PM
I agree that the similarity with Kahveci is undeniable. The real question then is, Exactly what SNP results does Kahveci have? I will invite him to join the R1a1a and Subclades Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results).

I am skeptical of Haddad's M269+ result, for two reasons:
- FTDNA's Y-Hap-Backbone test has been known to give incorrect results on occasion.
- M269 may have occurred twice in human history.



I agree with others that Haddad should wait until FTDNA's conference next month, to see whether FTDNA or National Geographic announces a new product or a new version of an existing product. If not, Haddad could also order an upgrade to 67 markers if it goes on sale in late November, as it usually does.


Ftdna don't say that i'm M269+ but negative to downstream in the tree, because i don't test SNP. They say that i'm tested + to M269. I don't know but i don't think that i'm in P312 or U106 group, i think if i'm M269 i'm in Ht 35 that are group of Middle Eastern R1b. Maybe i'm R1a or R1b V88. I think make more sense i'm in R1b Ht35, R1b v88 or R1a than R1b P312 or U106.

George Chandler
10-31-2013, 03:02 PM
Hello Mr Haddad,

It was posted that your male line comes from Northern Iraq..are you aware of any Kurdish ancestry in your past? I don't mind pitching in to test for a couple of SNP's, but I really think the Geno 2.0 test is what's needed right now.

George

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 03:14 PM
I have in past in patternal line a arab christian from Mosul North iraq, that i know any kurdish because my family that we know we are arabs or syriacs that i know since our existence not about kurdish. But i not discuss with dna, i just to want understand. That i know that i'm sure R haplogroup, but we want know what R i'am, i don't think of european lineage. By my markers we see that is different of europeans.

R.Rocca
10-31-2013, 03:18 PM
I did that hypothesis some time ago, because there are too many samples of people demonstrated after to belong to other subclades that FTDNA tested M269, and we cannot think that is always a mistake. The problem is that in this case M269 should have occurred more than one time, and this is unreliable:

blalb/M269 is actually V88+
Mangino/M269 would be L389+

and other case i found (amongst them also Marchesi of the Italy FTDNA Project you administrate).

Occam's razor would say: FTDNA's error.

I know it is circular logic, but why wouldn't they have made that error in L51+ samples, which probably outnumber the R1b(xL51) by many thousands? Maybe it is because backbone tests aren't common in L51+ people due to their STR signature?

Rathna
10-31-2013, 03:28 PM
I know it is circular logic, but why wouldn't they have made that error in L51+ samples, which probably outnumber the R1b(xL51) by many thousands? Maybe it is because backbone tests aren't common in L51+ people due to their STR signature?

I think that the mistake is to test only one SNP, given reliable. Think to L150 or now to P25, which makes the R1b1* assessment crush down.
Geno 2.0 doesn't test M269 but s3 and s10 and probably another. For this these tests will be the future: one SNP may fail, but not two or more. Also L49 seemed unreliable etc., but my 23andMe tested both positive (L23 and L49).

Rathna
10-31-2013, 04:14 PM
Ftdna don't say that i'm M269+ but negative to downstream in the tree, because i don't test SNP. They say that i'm tested + to M269. I don't know but i don't think that i'm in P312 or U106 group, i think if i'm M269 i'm in Ht 35 that are group of Middle Eastern R1b. Maybe i'm R1a or R1b V88. I think make more sense i'm in R1b Ht35, R1b v88 or R1a than R1b P312 or U106.

298933 Haddad (Youssef Abdalla Haddad, 1877-1945) R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+
M8800 blalb R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+
FTDNA gives you both M269+, but M8800 blalb has already been put amongst the R-V88+. The problem aren't the subclades of M269, but that for the FTDNA you are M269+, and this probably isn't true.

About what you are and about your origin it will be said by proofs and not by what you prefer.
Nomina sunt consequentia rerum (id est in English: names derive from things) and not the other way around.

George Chandler
10-31-2013, 05:13 PM
I have in past in patternal line a arab christian from Mosul North iraq, that i know any kurdish because my family that we know we are arabs or syriacs that i know since our existence not about kurdish. But i not discuss with dna, i just to want understand. That i know that i'm sure R haplogroup, but we want know what R i'am, i don't think of european lineage. By my markers we see that is different of europeans.

Ok thanks for the information. Sometimes families have a common ancestor much farther back in time, but if you have no known connection that helps me understand. If money is provided are you interested in testing for a few SNP's?

George

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 05:27 PM
Ok thanks for the information. Sometimes families have a common ancestor much farther back in time, but if you have no known connection that helps me understand. If money is provided are you interested in testing for a few SNP's?

George

Of course i'm interesed, i want know my haplogroup sure and my haplotype. You say about Geno 2.0?

George Chandler
10-31-2013, 05:38 PM
We can do this 2 different ways. You can send me a private email with your mailing address for a Geno 2.0, or because some people don't like doing that as it's a privacy issue we can start testing individual SNP's to try and locate your placement. You have already tested with FTDNA so if you belong to a group I can donate to it for each SNP test. I'll leave that up to you.

George

Joe B
10-31-2013, 05:46 PM
This link still shows Geno 2.0 on sale.
http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2001246&gsk&code=EM102913H&utm_source=NatGeocom&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=ngstore_20131029&utm_campaign=Store
Your Price
$159.95
Original Price
$199.95

Ahaddad
10-31-2013, 06:01 PM
We can do this 2 different ways. You can send me a private email with your mailing address for a Geno 2.0, or because some people don't like doing that as it's a privacy issue we can start testing individual SNP's to try and locate your placement. You have already tested with FTDNA so if you belong to a group I can donate to it for each SNP test. I'll leave that up to you.

George

Thanks George, i send my adress in your private message.

George Chandler
10-31-2013, 06:54 PM
I sent you one back. If you have any questions let me know.

George

Humanist
10-31-2013, 07:22 PM
Hello Mr Haddad,

It was posted that your male line comes from Northern Iraq..are you aware of any Kurdish ancestry in your past? I don't mind pitching in to test for a couple of SNP's, but I really think the Geno 2.0 test is what's needed right now.

George

It would be out of the ordinary (though not necessarily impossible) for there to be a mixed Muslim-Christian paternal line. At least in that part of the world. It is more of a possibility, perhaps, with female lineages.

Edit: I see Mr. Haddad has replied.

GoldenHind
10-31-2013, 11:58 PM
We can do this 2 different ways. You can send me a private email with your mailing address for a Geno 2.0, or because some people don't like doing that as it's a privacy issue we can start testing individual SNP's to try and locate your placement. You have already tested with FTDNA so if you belong to a group I can donate to it for each SNP test. I'll leave that up to you.

George

Although he technically isn't eligible as he hasn't tested P312, I can confirm Mr. Haddad is a memer of the R1b-P312 & Subclades Project, if that helps.

George Chandler
11-01-2013, 12:36 AM
Although he technically isn't eligible as he hasn't tested P312, I can confirm Mr. Haddad is a memer of the R1b-P312 & Subclades Project, if that helps.

Ok thanks. We'll see what comes from the Geno 2.0 results and go from there.

George

George Chandler
11-01-2013, 12:44 AM
It would be out of the ordinary (though not necessarily impossible) for there to be a mixed Muslim-Christian paternal line. At least in that part of the world. It is more of a possibility, perhaps, with female lineages.

Edit: I see Mr. Haddad has replied.

I guess I've learned not to rule out too many possibilities even when less likely. It's always good to ask.

Ahaddad
11-01-2013, 02:55 AM
Humanist You think that i'm in assyrian cluster?

Ahaddad
11-01-2013, 02:58 AM
I dont think that i'm p312 or u106 many different markers, but Let waiting results.

Humanist
11-01-2013, 01:25 PM
Humanist You think that i'm in assyrian cluster?

We need to test more members of the Chaldean Catholic and Syriac Orthodox churches. The majority of individuals who have tested have been members of the "Nestorian" Church. I will compare you to all of the Assyrian haplotypes in my spreadsheet again and get back to you.

Ahaddad
11-01-2013, 02:24 PM
And I have some resemblance of my markers with assyrians in your spreadsheet?

Silesian
01-07-2014, 06:25 AM
What mean this results? He is full lebanese that we know a many years ago...


If you have str result's you can enter them into ysearch and see who matches your paternal line. Minimum 67 would be good.
For example here is one Lebanese who has R1b
PKP7K-Lebanon
Haplogroup: R1b1a2a1 (tested)
Last name: Variant spellings:

Tested with: Family Tree DNA
Contact person:

Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line
First Name:
Last Name:
Year Born:
Year Died:
Country of Origin: Lebanon
Latitude:


http://www.ysearch.org/

GTC
01-07-2014, 09:51 AM
What's the status of this case? Has a Geno 2 test been ordered?

Humanist
01-09-2014, 08:07 PM
What's the status of this case? Has a Geno 2 test been ordered?

Yes. I would like to know the same. Especially now that it appears your paternal line is indeed from the Chaldean Catholic Church.

Rathna
01-16-2014, 03:06 PM
It seems that Haddad's results are this:

PF6215, if it is the final SNP, is like R-M420*, i.e. the most ancient, as I think having said when we discussed about the "Case Haddad" I posted here. The haplotype seemed similar to the European ones found in the Isles and Italy above all. We don't know so far the haplotypes of the R-M420* found in Iran. In the Morley's tree there is also an Arab R-M420 with an own other mutation whose haplotype isn't known to me.

P.S. The Arab is this:

1883 1R1a–1 Z1866
R [1/1]
1884 1N114240

Rathna
01-16-2014, 03:18 PM
It seems that Haddad's results are this:

PF6215, if it is the final SNP, is like R-M420*, i.e. the most ancient, as I think having said when we discussed about the "Case Haddad" I posted here. The haplotype seemed similar to the European ones found in the Isles and Italy above all. We don't know so far the haplotypes of the R-M420* found in Iran. In the Morley's tree there is also an Arab R-M420 with an own other mutation whose haplotype isn't known to me.

P.S. The Arab is this:

1883 1R1a–1 Z1866
R [1/1]
1884 1N114240

This I wrote in my first post here:
"There is also the possibility that you are R1a* (M420*), for that I think that to test Geno 2.0 would be the first choice. If you want, we could promote a subscription I could participate to. If you were confirmed M269*, the thing would be extremely interesting for our haplogroup history."