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alan
11-01-2013, 05:55 PM
Was just wondering if there is anything better than the Wiki summary on this. Anyone got any info?

parasar
11-01-2013, 06:01 PM
alan,
As yet I have not seen a confirmed R*, ie, a M207 that if further tested did not turn out M479 too.

parasar
11-01-2013, 06:31 PM
Eg, Most if not all the R-M07 here are likely M479+ http://182.73.176.163/chc/plosone2012.pdf A few may be M173.
The P* may be genuine as they did type both M207 and M242
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269.s005
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269#corrections

alan
11-01-2013, 09:11 PM
R* is now known as R-M207*
Wiki notes it

is rare. Kivisild 2003 reported finding R-M207 in 3.4% (1/29) of a sample of Indians from Gujarat. According to Firasat 2007, R-M207* has been found in 10.3% (10/97) of a sample of Burusho, 6.8% (3/44) of a sample of Kalash, and 1.0% (1/96) of a sample of Pashtuns from northern Pakistan in addition to 0.63% (4/638) of an ethnically mixed Pakistani sample.

Wiki has a habit of not keeping up with new studies so I was wondering if this has been found elsewhere.

alan
11-01-2013, 09:49 PM
one seems to be listed for Kyrgyzstan east in a sample of 35 on table 7 in the Hindu Kush paper

parasar
11-01-2013, 11:00 PM
R* is now known as R-M207*
Wiki notes it

is rare. Kivisild 2003 reported finding R-M207 in 3.4% (1/29) of a sample of Indians from Gujarat. According to Firasat 2007, R-M207* has been found in 10.3% (10/97) of a sample of Burusho, 6.8% (3/44) of a sample of Kalash, and 1.0% (1/96) of a sample of Pashtuns from northern Pakistan in addition to 0.63% (4/638) of an ethnically mixed Pakistani sample.

Wiki has a habit of not keeping up with new studies so I was wondering if this has been found elsewhere.

I believe the Pakistani ones were all found by Myres to be M479.
The same should be the case for the Gujaratis.

parasar
11-01-2013, 11:03 PM
one seems to be listed for Kyrgyzstan east in a sample of 35 on table 7 in the Hindu Kush paper
Thanks.
Did they test M173?
I will take a look at the STR for clues.

parasar
11-02-2013, 03:57 PM
@alan,

There is one Uzbek sample too that is listed M207*. They may well be some old lines of R* as I was not able to pin them down to R1. Another factor is support of disparate R* is that the separation between the two samples is immense.

Jean M
11-02-2013, 05:32 PM
Y-Haplogroup R* DNA Project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Rasterisk/default.aspx

Looks like the few there M207+, M173- have not been tested for M479 and could be R2.

alan
11-02-2013, 06:14 PM
Oh well R* does seem a little hopeless to look at.

alan
11-04-2013, 12:24 AM
Although these are very rare, the possible R* or R1* noted in Kygyzstan east in this paper and the R* Uzbek mentioned by Parasar as well as the P343*/P25* noted in SE Kazakstan (which is adjacent to Kygyzstan east), northern Afghanistan and northern Iran is highly suggestive of a trail along the interface between the southern edgee of the LGM desert in central Asia and the northern edge of the uplands of inner Asia to the south. The lack of any of this in Altai suggests that this refuge was not used nor was the pass from Altai into China.

Even though the numbers are small for the R*, R1* and possible R1b* lines this is not surprising given the period and it does form a coherent geographical and ecological trail from the sort of area that the Mal'ta boy was found in. What I also find interesting in the challenging period that such a migration would have happened - basically the LGM is that there is a string of giant lakes along the route from Baikhal - Khövsgöl Nuur, khyargas nuur, Lakes Khar Us, Uvs, Zaysan, Alakhol, Balkhash Issyk Kul, etc. It is hard not to wonder if they were possibly crucial stepping stones on the journey west.


one seems to be listed for Kyrgyzstan east in a sample of 35 on table 7 in the Hindu Kush paper

parasar
11-15-2013, 03:18 AM
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-hap-r-dist.jpg

Did this P go through India on the way from SE Asia to Siberia?

Tamil K-P-Q/R
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269.s005

K-M9*
Paniya PNY HTF1 HTF K* K-M9 13 17 21 15 16 16 15 10 21 10
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC K* K-M9 13 15 23 16 14 18 16 11 21 11
Kurumba KMB HTK3 HTK K* K-M9 12 16 22 15 14 15 15 10 19 11
Mullukurumba MKB HTK4 HTK K* K-M9 13 14 20 15 17 17 15 10 17 13
Yadhava YDV DLF1 DLF K* K-M9 13 15 23 15 16 17 14 9 18 11
Yadhava YDV DLF1 DLF K* K-M9 14 16 22 16 13 18 15 11 19 10
Piramalai Kallar PLK DLF6 DLF K* K-M9 12 17 24 16 14 17 14 11 19 12
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF K* K-M9 14 15 22 15 15 16 14 9 19 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF K* K-M9 13 16 24 17 14 18 14 9 19 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF K* K-M9 13 17 26 16 14 15 15 11 18 11
Tamil Jains TML AW2 AW K* K-M9 12 17 24 14 14 17 15 11 20 12
Iyengar Brahmin IGR BRH3 BRH K* K-M9 12 18 23 15 15 16 14 11 19 11
VadamaBrahmin VDM BRH4 BRH K* K-M9 13 18 25 16 16 15 14 11 20 12

P-M45(xM207, xM242)
Pulayar PLY HTF3 HTF P* P-M45 13 16 22 16 13 17 15 11
Thoda THD HTC2 HTC P* P-M45 13 17 25 17 16 15 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF P* P-M45 14 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW P* P-M45 14 18 24 15 16 16 14 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW P* P-M45 14 18 24 15 16 16 14 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW P* P-M45 14 16 22 15 13 17 14 11
Brahacharanam BHC BRH2 BRH P* P-M45 13 18 25 16 15 14 14 11

Q-M242
Paniya PNY HTF1 HTF Q Q-M242 14 19 26 15 15 16 14 11
Pulayar PLY HTF3 HTF Q Q-M242 13 16 22 16 13 16 15 11
Pulayar PLY HTF3 HTF Q Q-M242 13 16 22 16 13 17 15 11
Irula IRL HTF4 HTF Q Q-M242 14 19 25 15 17 15 14 11
Kanikaran KNK HTC1 HTC Q Q-M242 15 17 25 16 13 17 15 11
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC Q Q-M242 12 17 23 16 15 16 14 11
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC Q Q-M242 12 17 23 16 15 16 14 11
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC Q Q-M242 14 17 25 15 15 16 14 11
Kattunaickan KTK HTK2 HTK Q Q-M242 13 15 23 17 14 19 16 11
Pallar PLR SC3 SC Q Q-M242 13 16 22 15 18 15 11
Nadar TNV NDT DLF4 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 19.2 14 11
Nadar TNV NDT DLF4 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 18 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 13 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 17 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 21 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 13 15 22 15 13 18 15 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF Q Q-M242 14 17 26 16 14 15 15 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF Q Q-M242 14 26 16 15 15 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 15 16 14 10
Tamil Jains TML AW2 AW Q Q-M242 12 17 24 15 15 16 14 11

R-M207 (M479 status not known)
Maravar
R* R-M207 14 20 23 16 14 18 16 11 19 12 10 10 15 12 26 12 11
R* R-M207 14 19 24 15 14 15 14 10 19 12 10 11 14 12 18 12 11
R* R-M207 14 17 24 15 15 17 14 11 20 12 11 11 13 10 23 12 11
R* R-M207 14 18 22 15 15 17 14 10 19 11 11 11 13 11 20 13 11
R* R-M207 12 19 25 16 12 16 14 11 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12 12
R* R-M207 14 16 23 16 14 16 15 12 19 13 11 13 12 12 23 12 12
Paniya
R* R-M207 15 17 23 15 15 18 15 11 19 12 10 10 14 11 25 13 12
Irula
R* R-M207 14 16 24 15 15 17 16 11 19 12 10 10 14 12 25 12 12
Kanikaran
R* R-M207 13 17 25 15 17 15 14 11 20 12 11 11 13 10 23 12 12
Kota
R* R-M207 13 18 25 16 15 14 14 11 20 12 11 11 13 10 23 12 10
R* R-M207 14 17 25 15 15 16 14 11 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12
R* R-M207 13 16 23 15 14 17 15 9 21 12 10 13 12 24 15 11
Kattunaickan
R* R-M207 12 16 23 13 15 18 14 10 19 11 10 12 13 11 25 14 11
R* R-M207 13 15 22 17 14 20 16 11 19 12 10 14 12 24
Parayar
R* R-M207 14 17 24 14 15 16 14 11 20 13 10 11 13 11 24 12 12
R* R-M207 13 17 25 16 15 15 14 10 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12 12
R* R-M207 13 16 23 16 14 18 16 11 19 12 10 10 14 10 24 12 12
Pallar
R* R-M207 13 17 25 16 16 15 14 11 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12 10
Paravar
R* R-M207 14 14 23 15 15 17 15 11 19 12 10 10 13 12 24 12 12
Yadhava
R* R-M207 13 16 24 14 15 14 14 11 18 12 10 13 13 11 26 13 12
Vanniyar
R* R-M207 13 17 24 15 13 16 15 12 19 13 10 13 12 12 23 12 11
R* R-M207 14 16 23 15 14 20 16 11 19 10 10 10 14 10 24 12
Cape Nadar
R* R-M207 14 16 23 15 14 16 14 11 19 11 10 15 12 12 26 12 12
Valayar
R* R-M207 14 16 22 15 15 16 15 10 18 12 10 11 13 12 21
Mukkuvar
R* R-M207 13 17 25 15 14 18 15 12 19 11 10 13 12 13 23 12 12
R* R-M207 13 23 17 17 15 12 19 12 10 12 11 23 12 12
Brahacharanam
R* R-M207 13 17 22 17 18 16 15 10 19 12 10 11 13 13 21 12 12
R* R-M207 14 16 23 16 15 16 15 12 19 13 11 13 12 13 23 12 12
R* R-M207 13 18 24 16 16 15 14 11 20 13 10 13 10 23 12 10
R* R-M207 14 16 23 17 15 16 15 12 19 13 11 12 13 23 12 11
VadamaBrahmin
R* R-M207 13 15 24 15 15 19 16 11 19 12 10 10 13 10 24 12 11
R* R-M207 14 16 24 15 14 18 16 12 19 11 10 10 13 11 25 12 12
R* R-M207 13 18 24 15 16 14 16 11 19 11 10 10 14 10 26 12 12
R* R-M207 13 18 23 15 14 17 15 11 19 12 10 10 14 10 13 12

alan
11-16-2013, 12:06 AM
My understanding is the mountain barrier is huge from Afghanistan to Altai and again all the way to Machuria. So P would either have to have gone way west or (more likely IMO) headed through the pass near Alatai and subsequently it and its descendant R* and the ancestor of Q were driven in multiple directions south for a time. I think there is a case that R went west through central Asia, probably being pushed to the southern fringes of north central Asia just north of the mountain chain before reaching the Caspian. There seems a good case that at least some of Q went into the south Altai and that this group is ancestral to native Americans. From that position the Dzungaria gate pass accesses into east Asia although I cannot vouch for the feasibility or attractiveness of that in the LGM.

One thing that I have not put much time into thinking about is who were the groups who developed the microblade technology in the LGM and expanded into very cold areas of the north not previously occupied. Some people place the origin of this technology in Altai and other close to Japan. Was this N or Q? Some things would perhaps point to Q including the possible Altai origin of microblades and the native American type of Q. On the other hand N also has a case although it didnt make it to the Americas so may have expanded later from China.


http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-hap-r-dist.jpg

Did this P go through India on the way from SE Asia to Siberia?

Tamil K-P-Q/R
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269.s005

K-M9*
Paniya PNY HTF1 HTF K* K-M9 13 17 21 15 16 16 15 10 21 10
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC K* K-M9 13 15 23 16 14 18 16 11 21 11
Kurumba KMB HTK3 HTK K* K-M9 12 16 22 15 14 15 15 10 19 11
Mullukurumba MKB HTK4 HTK K* K-M9 13 14 20 15 17 17 15 10 17 13
Yadhava YDV DLF1 DLF K* K-M9 13 15 23 15 16 17 14 9 18 11
Yadhava YDV DLF1 DLF K* K-M9 14 16 22 16 13 18 15 11 19 10
Piramalai Kallar PLK DLF6 DLF K* K-M9 12 17 24 16 14 17 14 11 19 12
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF K* K-M9 14 15 22 15 15 16 14 9 19 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF K* K-M9 13 16 24 17 14 18 14 9 19 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF K* K-M9 13 17 26 16 14 15 15 11 18 11
Tamil Jains TML AW2 AW K* K-M9 12 17 24 14 14 17 15 11 20 12
Iyengar Brahmin IGR BRH3 BRH K* K-M9 12 18 23 15 15 16 14 11 19 11
VadamaBrahmin VDM BRH4 BRH K* K-M9 13 18 25 16 16 15 14 11 20 12

P-M45(xM207, xM242)
Pulayar PLY HTF3 HTF P* P-M45 13 16 22 16 13 17 15 11
Thoda THD HTC2 HTC P* P-M45 13 17 25 17 16 15 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF P* P-M45 14 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW P* P-M45 14 18 24 15 16 16 14 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW P* P-M45 14 18 24 15 16 16 14 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW P* P-M45 14 16 22 15 13 17 14 11
Brahacharanam BHC BRH2 BRH P* P-M45 13 18 25 16 15 14 14 11

Q-M242
Paniya PNY HTF1 HTF Q Q-M242 14 19 26 15 15 16 14 11
Pulayar PLY HTF3 HTF Q Q-M242 13 16 22 16 13 16 15 11
Pulayar PLY HTF3 HTF Q Q-M242 13 16 22 16 13 17 15 11
Irula IRL HTF4 HTF Q Q-M242 14 19 25 15 17 15 14 11
Kanikaran KNK HTC1 HTC Q Q-M242 15 17 25 16 13 17 15 11
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC Q Q-M242 12 17 23 16 15 16 14 11
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC Q Q-M242 12 17 23 16 15 16 14 11
Kota KOT HTC3 HTC Q Q-M242 14 17 25 15 15 16 14 11
Kattunaickan KTK HTK2 HTK Q Q-M242 13 15 23 17 14 19 16 11
Pallar PLR SC3 SC Q Q-M242 13 16 22 15 18 15 11
Nadar TNV NDT DLF4 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 19.2 14 11
Nadar TNV NDT DLF4 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 18 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 13 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 19 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 17 22 15 13 20 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 13 21 14 11
Cape Nadar NDC DLF5 DLF Q Q-M242 13 15 22 15 13 18 15 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF Q Q-M242 14 17 26 16 14 15 15 11
Maravar MRV DLF7 DLF Q Q-M242 14 26 16 15 15 11
Valayar VLR AW1 AW Q Q-M242 14 16 22 15 15 16 14 10
Tamil Jains TML AW2 AW Q Q-M242 12 17 24 15 15 16 14 11

R-M207 (M479 status not known)
Maravar
R* R-M207 14 20 23 16 14 18 16 11 19 12 10 10 15 12 26 12 11
R* R-M207 14 19 24 15 14 15 14 10 19 12 10 11 14 12 18 12 11
R* R-M207 14 17 24 15 15 17 14 11 20 12 11 11 13 10 23 12 11
R* R-M207 14 18 22 15 15 17 14 10 19 11 11 11 13 11 20 13 11
R* R-M207 12 19 25 16 12 16 14 11 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12 12
R* R-M207 14 16 23 16 14 16 15 12 19 13 11 13 12 12 23 12 12
Paniya
R* R-M207 15 17 23 15 15 18 15 11 19 12 10 10 14 11 25 13 12
Irula
R* R-M207 14 16 24 15 15 17 16 11 19 12 10 10 14 12 25 12 12
Kanikaran
R* R-M207 13 17 25 15 17 15 14 11 20 12 11 11 13 10 23 12 12
Kota
R* R-M207 13 18 25 16 15 14 14 11 20 12 11 11 13 10 23 12 10
R* R-M207 14 17 25 15 15 16 14 11 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12
R* R-M207 13 16 23 15 14 17 15 9 21 12 10 13 12 24 15 11
Kattunaickan
R* R-M207 12 16 23 13 15 18 14 10 19 11 10 12 13 11 25 14 11
R* R-M207 13 15 22 17 14 20 16 11 19 12 10 14 12 24
Parayar
R* R-M207 14 17 24 14 15 16 14 11 20 13 10 11 13 11 24 12 12
R* R-M207 13 17 25 16 15 15 14 10 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12 12
R* R-M207 13 16 23 16 14 18 16 11 19 12 10 10 14 10 24 12 12
Pallar
R* R-M207 13 17 25 16 16 15 14 11 20 12 10 11 13 10 23 12 10
Paravar
R* R-M207 14 14 23 15 15 17 15 11 19 12 10 10 13 12 24 12 12
Yadhava
R* R-M207 13 16 24 14 15 14 14 11 18 12 10 13 13 11 26 13 12
Vanniyar
R* R-M207 13 17 24 15 13 16 15 12 19 13 10 13 12 12 23 12 11
R* R-M207 14 16 23 15 14 20 16 11 19 10 10 10 14 10 24 12
Cape Nadar
R* R-M207 14 16 23 15 14 16 14 11 19 11 10 15 12 12 26 12 12
Valayar
R* R-M207 14 16 22 15 15 16 15 10 18 12 10 11 13 12 21
Mukkuvar
R* R-M207 13 17 25 15 14 18 15 12 19 11 10 13 12 13 23 12 12
R* R-M207 13 23 17 17 15 12 19 12 10 12 11 23 12 12
Brahacharanam
R* R-M207 13 17 22 17 18 16 15 10 19 12 10 11 13 13 21 12 12
R* R-M207 14 16 23 16 15 16 15 12 19 13 11 13 12 13 23 12 12
R* R-M207 13 18 24 16 16 15 14 11 20 13 10 13 10 23 12 10
R* R-M207 14 16 23 17 15 16 15 12 19 13 11 12 13 23 12 11
VadamaBrahmin
R* R-M207 13 15 24 15 15 19 16 11 19 12 10 10 13 10 24 12 11
R* R-M207 14 16 24 15 14 18 16 12 19 11 10 10 13 11 25 12 12
R* R-M207 13 18 24 15 16 14 16 11 19 11 10 10 14 10 26 12 12
R* R-M207 13 18 23 15 14 17 15 11 19 12 10 10 14 10 13 12

parasar
11-21-2013, 01:58 AM
My understanding is the mountain barrier is huge from Afghanistan to Altai and again all the way to Machuria. So P would either have to have gone way west or (more likely IMO) headed through the pass near Alatai and subsequently it and its descendant R* and the ancestor of Q were driven in multiple directions south for a time. I think there is a case that R went west through central Asia, probably being pushed to the southern fringes of north central Asia just north of the mountain chain before reaching the Caspian. There seems a good case that at least some of Q went into the south Altai and that this group is ancestral to native Americans. From that position the Dzungaria gate pass accesses into east Asia although I cannot vouch for the feasibility or attractiveness of that in the LGM.

One thing that I have not put much time into thinking about is who were the groups who developed the microblade technology in the LGM and expanded into very cold areas of the north not previously occupied. Some people place the origin of this technology in Altai and other close to Japan. Was this N or Q? Some things would perhaps point to Q including the possible Altai origin of microblades and the native American type of Q. On the other hand N also has a case although it didnt make it to the Americas so may have expanded later from China.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Atc-yykaT1c/Uo0Tyu_EB_I/AAAAAAAAJZ4/kZHJkoNpey0/s1600/treemix.png




"Figure SI 6 Ancestry proportions of MA-1: ADMIXTURE (previous page). Plots representing ancestry components of MA-1 and a
worldwide panel of present-day populations, showing converged runs from K=3 to K=15 in 100 replicates. K=9 is highlighted as this model was
found to have the best predictive accuracy."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf

37% South Asian green, 34% European dark blue, 10% 16% Latin American Native orange and light pink, 4% Papuan purple, 0% East Asian dark yellow, 0% Siberian light yellow, 0% West Asian light blue.

From these %ages, three scenarios look most likely to me - this boy's folk were from South Asia on the way to Europe, Europeans on the way to South Asia, or representative of an ancestral Indo-European population.