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Tomenable
09-17-2018, 02:19 AM
Ethnic Poles outside of the borders of present-day Poland:

1. Before WW2:

South Kresy* - 2,249,703 Poles**** (1931 Polish census)
North Kresy** - 1,663,888 Poles*** (1931 Polish census)
Soviet Belarus - 97,498 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
Soviet Ukraine - 476,435 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
Lithuania - 202,026 Poles (1923 votes for Polish Party)
Latvia - 59,374 Poles (1930 Latvian census)
Estonia - 1,608 Poles (1934 Estonian census)
Soviet Russia - 197,827 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
Czech Silesia - 200,000 Poles (1939 Polish data)

*Today Western Ukraine, before WW2 this area was part of Poland.
**Today Western Belarus & South Lithuania, in Poland before WW2.

***This 1,663,888 included, by religion: 1,358,029 Roman Catholic Poles, 281,331 Orthodox & Greek Catholic Poles, 9,011 Jewish Poles, 15,517 other Poles. Non-Polish Roman Catholics were 154,449. The number of Orthodox and Greek Catholic Poles could be artificially inflated (same in South Kresy).

****Of whom 1,765,765 Roman Catholic Poles (other Poles were not counted by Piotr Eberhardt, see the spoiler):

http://i.imgur.com/9LMM7iD.png

See also: https://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/liczba-i-rozmieszczenie-ludnosci-polskiej-na-czesci-kresow-obecnie-w-granicach-ukrainy/
Total: ca. 5.1 million (or 4.4 million if counting only Roman Catholic Poles)

2. After WW2:

Belarus - 538,881 Poles (1959 Soviet census)
Ukraine - 363,297 Poles (1959 Soviet census)
Lithuania - 230,107 Poles (1959 Soviet census)
Latvia - 59,774 Poles (1959 Soviet census)
Estonia - 2,256 Poles (1959 Soviet census)
Rest of the USSR - 185,967 (1959 census)
Czechoslovakia - 66,540 Poles (1961 census)

Total: ca. 1.5 million (according to unofficial estimates, more stayed there)

Tomenable
09-17-2018, 02:26 AM
Here is a map of the areas in question:

2 = South Kresy (now Western Ukraine)
1a = North Kresy (now Western Belarus)
1b = North Kresy (now South Lithuania)
1.2 = Soviet Belarus (now East Belarus)
2.2 = Soviet Ukraine (Central-East Ukraine)
1.3 = pre-WW2 Lithuania + Memelland
1.4 = Latvia as well as Estonia
3 = Soviet Russia (rest of the USSR)

https://i.imgur.com/dhbRrl6.png

Czech Silesia (areas west of Olza River):
https://polona.pl/item/wojewodztwo-slaskie-podzialka-1-400-000,MTM4ODcwOTc/0/#info:metadata

http://slideplayer.cz/slide/3420860/11/images/3/Těšínsko+a+Zaolzie.jpg

Tomenable
09-17-2018, 03:10 AM
Ethnic structure of some Kresy cities before WW2 and today:

https://i.imgur.com/8PDIaW1.png

^^^
Lvov was the 3rd largest city of Poland in 1931, after Warsaw & Łódź:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasta_w_II_Rzeczypospolitej


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiekjno91WA

Polish garrison of Lwów, under Gen. Władysław Langner, surrendered to the Soviet Red Army on 22.09.1939 afternoon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_Langner

The city was defended against Germans (since 12.09.39) & later against the Soviets with Germans (since 18/19.09.39):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

==========

1938 film with English subtitles about the Jewish community of Lwów:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CZDzLoKi8

Tomenable
09-17-2018, 03:54 AM
About 15% of citizens of Poland today (ca. 6 million people) declare full or partial Eastern ancestry.

Distribution in modern Poland (by region) of Poles with ancestry from former Polish Eastern Lands:

https://i.imgur.com/nijxyZJ.png

Sources: a 2012 survey by CBOS, 1950 census and Leszek Kosiński's publications from the 1960s.

Volat
09-19-2018, 11:26 AM
Only Poles not certain about themselves will start such thread. I mean Poles who have less to do with us. OP! You know we're different. I feel proximity to certain Poles. I'd love to read Poles of Podlaskie. Especially Poles of Mazovia.

They are our genetic cousins. :)

George
09-19-2018, 01:09 PM
Only Poles not certain about themselves will start such thread. I mean Poles who have less to do with us. OP! You know we're different. I feel proximity to certain Poles. I'd love to read Poles of Podlaskie. Especially Poles of Mazovia.

They are our genetic cousins. :)


The thread per se is OK. But some of the documentation is doubtful. Esp. the 1931 Polish census. It's actually not about ethnicity but about alleged" linguistic Poles" and has been criticized (by some Polish scholars also).

Volat
09-19-2018, 02:16 PM
The thread per se is OK. But some of the documentation is doubtful. Esp. the 1931 Polish census. It's actually not about ethnicity but about alleged" linguistic Poles" and has been criticized (by some Polish scholars also).

In my eyes the thread is not Okay. Take a look to what happened to Ukrainians and Belarusians in the West during interwar period. There was no Holodomor. But Orthodox churches were closed. We were discrimated against. There was a reason for ethnic tension between Ukrainians and Poles.

Take a look for why it happened between 1921 and 1939.

Volat
09-19-2018, 02:22 PM
Genetically, culturally, historically Belarusians and Ukrainians (especially Ukrainians of Chernihiv, Kyiv, Zhytomyr, Rivno, Volyn) . God damn I don't like Ukrainians using the letter 'i' in place where we use 'a'.
George! You know this well.

George
09-19-2018, 03:30 PM
It's OK to try to find out how many Poles existed in the erstwhile eastern areas of "interwar Poland". But it's not OK to use falsified information. And I agree with your overall statements about the epoch. I have no positive sentiments for micro-imperial nostalgias.

Volat
09-19-2018, 09:38 PM
Russians and Ukrainians argued over religion celebrations for years. Today Belarus has 10% of its population Roman Catholic.Right from the beginning we introduced all Roman Catholic celebrations as public holidays. Once a certain Russian came to us saying that Roman Catholic church is taller than eastern Orthodox church in a town of Viciebsk region. The region near Lithuania and Latvia.People could not understand him. He was not welcomed anymore.
Some idiot out of Siberia coming to us saying the church of our Roman Catholic which Belarusians, Poles, Lithuanians attend is taller?

PS I keep my fingers crossed for Ukrainian Orthodox Chuch of Kyiv patriachate getting autocephaly.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 08:14 PM
Only Poles not certain about themselves will start such thread. I mean Poles who have less to do with us. OP! You know we're different. I feel proximity to certain Poles. I'd love to read Poles of Podlaskie. Especially Poles of Mazovia.

They are our genetic cousins. :)

But feel free to ask me about Mazovia and Podlaskie!

I am equally interested in all Polish-inhabited regions, including Mazovia and Podlaskie, not just in my own region. ;)

Where is the Fatherland of a Pole?
Is it Wielkopolska? Is it Podolia?
Oh no, no, no!
Our Fatherland must be bigger!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TseCA2qdVZ8

This is interesting paper by Piotr Eberhardt:

http://dspace.uni.lodz.pl:8080/xmlui/handle/11089/17060?show=full

PDF download link:

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.hdl_11089_17060/c/2-009_035-Eberhardt.pdf

English Summary:

"After the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was liquidated and disappeared from the map of Europe at the end of the 18th century, and was partitioned by Russia, Prussia, and Austria, Polish activists of the independence movements never consented to the fact and continued to work for the revival of the Polish state. One of the issues pondered about was that of the future boundaries of this state. Initially, the issue was not complicated at all, since it was commonly held that the sole just solution would be the return to the historical boundaries of 1772. In the later period, the awareness arose that this option cannot be realised. This was not only the consequence of the stable and disadvantageous for Poland geopolitical situation in Europe, but also of the ethnic diversification of the territory of the former Commonwealth. That is why various concepts started to appear, concerning the future boundaries of Poland, considering the historical, geopolitical, strategic, and ethnic conditioning. These concepts were primarily the visions of individual scholars or activists, but often they did represent definite ideological and political orientations. The article presents and comments upon some of these designs. Those more original in substantive terms, and containing an interesting cartographic illustration, were selected for presentation. Thusthe article treats the concepts authored by: Oskar Żebrowski, Stanisław Tomaszewski, Aleksander Janowski, Czesław Jankowski, Włodzimierz Wakar, Wiktor Skarga-Dobrowolski, and Józef Jaskólski. These concepts, postulating the shape of boundaries of Poland, differed significantly as to the general territorial reach of the country and the shapes of its boundaries. Some of them were of clear maximalist character, while other ones were more moderate, and so had higher chances of implementation. The two last proposals for the boundaries of Poland, presented in the article, were already the official documents. The first of those two represented the position of the Polish National Committee, which was active in Lausanne in the years 1917–1918. The last concept of the boundary of Poland, shown in the article, was the official stance of the authorities of the newly re-established Polish state, which was presented at the Peace Conference in Paris in 1919. This concept was developed by Roman Dmowski, who headed Polish delegation at this conference. At the end of the article this most important design, prepared for the Versailles conference, is compared to the actual course of boundaries of the Polish state as it re-emerged after the First World War."

Map from 1847, "Shape of Poland within its Natural Borders" by Oskar Żebrowski:

https://i.imgur.com/DeqTurn.jpg

^^^
The area in the west, around Poznań-Gniezno, called "Kolebka Polanów" = "Cradle of Poles".

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 08:19 PM
The thread per se is OK. But some of the documentation is doubtful. Esp. the 1931 Polish census. It's actually not about ethnicity but about alleged" linguistic Poles" and has been criticized (by some Polish scholars also).

What was falsified in the 1931 census? I already wrote that the number of Non-Catholic Poles was exaggerated.

That's why I gave you the number of Polish Roman Catholics too, as those people were "udoubtedly Polish".

Even now the distribution of Polish minority in Ukraine is the same as the distribution of Roman Catholics in Ukraine.

Ethnic Poles in Soviet Ukraine according to the census of 1926 (data only for rural population):

http://images70.fotosik.pl/195/7a0e34478db98157.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Poles1926ua.PNG

^^^
Today it is this area - and not areas which used to be parts of Poland before 1939 - which has the highest percent of Poles. Why? Because post-WW2 deportation of Poles affected West Ukraine much more than this area. This fact is confirmed by the article below:

https://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/liczba-i-rozmieszczenie-ludnosci-polskiej-na-czesci-kresow-obecnie-w-granicach-ukrainy/


Spis ludności z 1959 r. Wykazał na terytorium całej Ukraińskiej SRS łącznie z obszarami zabranymi Polsce nieco ponad 363 tys. ludności polskiej, gdzie w 1939 r. było jej 2,5 mln. W województwach, które przed wojną należały do Polski i zamieszkiwało je w 1931 r. ok. 1,8 mln ludności polskiej, w 1959 r. zamieszkiwało je 97 tys. Polaków. Udział Ukraińców wzrósł z 62% do 92%. Należy zaznaczyć, że rozpatrując terytorium całej Ukrainy, to najwięcej Polaków ostało się na terenach między Zbruczem a Dnieprem, czyli na ziemiach, które leżały na wschód od granic II RP. Łącznie według danych z 1959 r. zamieszkiwało te ziemie ponad 250 tys. Polaków, najwięcej w obwodzie żytomierskim (ponad 100 tys.) i chmielnickim (70 tys.).

^^^ According to the Soviet census of 1959, there were only 97,000 Poles left in West Ukraine (pre-war Polish areas) and 250,000 in Central and Eastern Ukraine (including over 100,000 in Zhytomir Oblast, and around 70,000 in Khmelnytskyi Oblast):

Between pre-war period Polish population in West Ukraine declined from 1,800,000 to 97,000 (6% of pre-war level) and Polish population in Central and Eastern Ukraine declined much less, because only from 476,500 to 266,500 (so 56% of pre-war level):

Most Polish today are Zhytomyr (Żytomierz), Khmelnytskyi (Chmielnicki) & Vynnytsia (Winnica) Oblasts:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Poles-in-Ukraine.jpg

^^^ Distribution of Roman Catholics is the same, with most living in these three Oblasts listed above:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/uk/1/10/Romanncatholic2010.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/uk/1/10/Romanncatholic2010.PNG

But for example a lot of Jews had Polish national identity based on the 1921 census too (if you don't like 1931).

From "The Jews of East Central Europe Between the World Wars" by Ezra Mendelsohn:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=5_OXOwvjqjwC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=1921+census+Jewish+nationality+Polish+nationali ty&source=bl&ots=Iic-ZJ0glg&sig=TFf3n3emYqyzTjkT7NFrebVPY5M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBmoVChMInuy6pITnxwIVBs9yCh1YBQdj#v=on epage&q&f=false

https://i.imgur.com/Eh16g0D.png

https://i.imgur.com/5ThuJKE.png

The 1921 census had similar data for Ukraine as the 1931 census, however in 1921 they counted national identity.

In this table, 1921 census data is about National Identity, while 1931 census data is about Mother Tongue:

https://i.imgur.com/98OmuAo.png

https://i.imgur.com/98OmuAo.png

Data for Lithuania (within its Inter-War borders) is here on pages 13-14 (or 7/171 and 8/171 of the PDF file):

http://pbc.biaman.pl/Content/1943/254352.pdf

George
09-20-2018, 08:49 PM
But feel free to ask me about Mazovia and Podlaskie!

I am equally interested in all Polish-inhabited regions, including Mazovia and Podlaskie, not just in my own region. ;)

Where is the Fatherland of a Pole?
Is it Wielkopolska? Is it Podolia?
Oh no, no, no!
Our Fatherland must be bigger!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TseCA2qdVZ8

This is interesting paper by Piotr Eberhardt:

http://dspace.uni.lodz.pl:8080/xmlui/handle/11089/17060?show=full

PDF download link:

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.hdl_11089_17060/c/2-009_035-Eberhardt.pdf

English Summary:

"After the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was liquidated and disappeared from the map of Europe at the end of the 18th century, and was partitioned by Russia, Prussia, and Austria, Polish activists of the independence movements never consented to the fact and continued to work for the revival of the Polish state. One of the issues pondered about was that of the future boundaries of this state. Initially, the issue was not complicated at all, since it was commonly held that the sole just solution would be the return to the historical boundaries of 1772. In the later period, the awareness arose that this option cannot be realised. This was not only the consequence of the stable and disadvantageous for Poland geopolitical situation in Europe, but also of the ethnic diversification of the territory of the former Commonwealth. That is why various concepts started to appear, concerning the future boundaries of Poland, considering the historical, geopolitical, strategic, and ethnic conditioning. These concepts were primarily the visions of individual scholars or activists, but often they did represent definite ideological and political orientations. The article presents and comments upon some of these designs. Those more original in substantive terms, and containing an interesting cartographic illustration, were selected for presentation. Thusthe article treats the concepts authored by: Oskar Żebrowski, Stanisław Tomaszewski, Aleksander Janowski, Czesław Jankowski, Włodzimierz Wakar, Wiktor Skarga-Dobrowolski, and Józef Jaskólski. These concepts, postulating the shape of boundaries of Poland, differed significantly as to the general territorial reach of the country and the shapes of its boundaries. Some of them were of clear maximalist character, while other ones were more moderate, and so had higher chances of implementation. The two last proposals for the boundaries of Poland, presented in the article, were already the official documents. The first of those two represented the position of the Polish National Committee, which was active in Lausanne in the years 1917–1918. The last concept of the boundary of Poland, shown in the article, was the official stance of the authorities of the newly re-established Polish state, which was presented at the Peace Conference in Paris in 1919. This concept was developed by Roman Dmowski, who headed Polish delegation at this conference. At the end of the article this most important design, prepared for the Versailles conference, is compared to the actual course of boundaries of the Polish state as it re-emerged after the First World War."

Map from 1847, "Shape of Poland within its Natural Borders" by Oskar Żebrowski:

https://i.imgur.com/DeqTurn.jpg

^^^
The area in the west, around Poznań-Gniezno, called "Kolebka Polanów" = "Cradle of Poles".

Here's a pretty standard view of Roman Dmowski by Ukrainians: https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Роман_Дмовський

Also: There's nothing wrong with "mother tongue" statistics per se. But one cannot identify mother tongue with ethnicity (as happened in the 1931 Polish census). == Frankly this is not a discussion I particularly relish. Things were not so good between Poles and Ukrainians for hundreds of years. Luckily this has begun to dramatically change in this generation. I hope the trend continues and becomes strong and permanent. So I will desist from any further contribution to "historical irritations". That's my last comment.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 08:55 PM
The scale of genocide and ethnic cleansing of Poles from Ukraine during and after World War 2 was terrifying.

In Belarus and Lithuania some Polish communities survived until now, but Western Ukraine was completely cleansed.

Fun fact is that Ukrainians don't know much about it because they still learn Banderist, nationalist version of history.

Poland was the only country of the victorious coalition in WW2 which ended up with a smaller territory than in 1939:

Polish territory in 1939 - 390,000 km2
Polish territory in 1945 - 312,000 km2 (decline by 78,000 km2, or to 80% of pre-war size)

Ukrainians still celebrate Bandera and Nazi Ukrainian SS Units - this was in April 2018 (!):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0JKqYu7_Ds

Volhynian Genocide (it also caused mass fights, hundreds of thousands of Poles escaped Ukraine already in 1943-1944):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-nwg693WCE

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 09:07 PM
So I will desist from any further contribution to "historical irritations". That's my last comment.

I keep my fingers crossed for Ukrainian Orthodox Chuch of Kyiv patriachate getting autocephaly.

Russians plus 107%, Poles minus 84% (bigger decline, percentage-wise, than in case of Ukrainian Jews!):

https://i.imgur.com/tZhMK5y.png

^^^
Russian Separatism (self-determination of Russians in Ukraine) is what you get for trading Poles for Russians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass


Here's a pretty standard view of Roman Dmowski by Ukrainians

You don't have to like him, but he predicted the events of 2013-2018, he predicted this civil war long ago:

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/08/ukraine-question-1930-part-2.html

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/08/ukraine-question-1930-part-3.html

I like Ukrainians but they should decide who is their friend, Poland or Russia. Until recently they uniformly preferred Russia, now they flock to Poland in their millions (only in 2016-2017 we took 1.2 million refugees and immigrants from Ukraine, not even counting those from 2014-2015). Denying Polish history in Ukraine, which dates back at least to 1340 and until 1945, is not going to help the Polish-Ukrainian friendship.

I do not agree with everything that Dmowski claimed about Ukraine, but he predicted some events accurately.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 09:28 PM
This is based on Austrian census 1910:

https://i.imgur.com/XwWscNs.png

The Inquiry (American experts) on Polish borders:

https://archive.org/stream/MyDiaryAtConferenceOfParis-Vol4/Miller--MyDiaryAtConferenceOfParis-Vol4#page/n247/mode/2up/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inquiry

https://i.imgur.com/1YArZr9.png

https://i.imgur.com/XelbDSF.png

https://i.imgur.com/sLyqYpJ.png

^^^ Here is the map of their proposed borders:

https://i.imgur.com/UGhgeeu.png

And here what they suggested for Czechoslovakia:

https://i.imgur.com/mZrBhZ2.png

https://i.imgur.com/7FSUkyG.png

https://i.imgur.com/NZS2uQ7.png

^^^
In the end Czechoslovakia did get these borders, but Poland got less favourable ones, mainly due to Britain's Anti-Polish stance.

George
09-20-2018, 09:38 PM
Russians and Ukrainians argued over religion celebrations for years. Today Belarus has 10% of its population Roman Catholic.Right from the beginning we introduced all Roman Catholic celebrations as public holidays. Once a certain Russian came to us saying that Roman Catholic church is taller than eastern Orthodox church in a town of Viciebsk region. The region near Lithuania and Latvia.People could not understand him. He was not welcomed anymore.
Some idiot out of Siberia coming to us saying the church of our Roman Catholic which Belarusians, Poles, Lithuanians attend is taller?

PS I keep my fingers crossed for Ukrainian Orthodox Chuch of Kyiv patriachate getting autocephaly.


Looks like the Tomos is irreversibly on its way (acc. to a speech by President Poroshenko in the Ukrainian Rada today). Doesn't affect me personally (I am a Ukrainian Greek Catholic/ also nurtured by RC Jesuits ;) But this is a very good development for Ukraine as a whole. And I don't think the process will stop there.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 09:45 PM
the church of our Roman Catholic which Belarusians, Poles, Lithuanians attend

Studies carried out recently by the Grodno University and by the Minsk University show that vast majority of Roman Catholics in Belarus identify as Poles and an even larger percent declare Polish ancestry (i.e. some no longer identify as fully Poles, but still declare Polish ancestry).

For research carried out by Grodno University, which shows that 83,3% of Roman Catholics in the Grodno Oblast identify as fully Poles (the rest of Roman Catholics there identify as both Poles and Belarusians or just Belarusians) and even more - because 95% - declare Polish ancestry (including also mixed Polish-Belarusian ancestry) check this source:

https://i.imgur.com/l0WhAId.png

In another survey from 2003, as many as 82% of Catholics in Belarus declared that they have Polish ancestry, including 66% with fully Polish ancestry and 16% from mixed families. In the westernmost Diocese of Grodno 95% of Catholics declared Polish ancestry, while in the easternmost Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev still as many as 73%.

This 2003 survey found out that 80% of Catholics in the Diocese of Grodno identify as fully Poles - so slightly less than according to that 2000 research by the University of Grodno (which showed 83,3%). In other dioceses percentages of Roman Catholics who identify as fully Polish are 70% in the Diocese of Pinsk, 57% in the Diocese of Vitebsk and just 35% in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev (compared to 73% who declared Polish ancestry in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev).

In the nationwide scale (entire Belarus on average), 63% of Roman Catholics identify as fully Poles (2003 data), 66% declare fully Polish ancestry, and 16% declare mixed Polish-Belarusian or Polish-other ancestry (in total 82% declare Polish ancestry). Regional breakdowns above. There are also a lot of Non-Catholic (Atheist, Orthodox, etc.) Poles in Belarus, because in some regions % of Poles is higher than % of Catholics.

Belarusians are slowly becoming Russianized due to post-WW2 replacement of Poles (deported) by Russians (imported).

In 1959 census only 6,8% of people who declared Belarusian ethnicity declared that Russian is their native language.

By comparison, in 1999 census only 41,3% of people who declared Belarusian ethnicity declared that they speak Belarusian in daily life (among urban population who declare Belarusian ethnicity, only 23% spoke Belarusian in daily life in 1999).


Belarusians are slowly becoming Russianized due to post-WW2 replacement of Poles (deported) by Russians (imported).

^^^
Change in the % of Poles and Russians in some counties (raions) of Belarus between 1945 and 1959:

https://i.imgur.com/RQV1rdk.png

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 09:54 PM
mother tongue with ethnicity (as happened in the 1931 Polish census)

In 1921 they asked about national identity and percentages for Ukraine were extremely similar as later in 1931.

See above, I posted census data for each Voivodeship for both 1921 and 1931.

One exception is Central Lithuania, which was not covered by the 1921 census.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 10:03 PM
Take a look to what happened to Ukrainians and Belarusians in the West during interwar period. There was no Holodomor. But Orthodox churches were closed. We were discrimated against. There was a reason for ethnic tension between Ukrainians and Poles.

Orthodox churches were closed because they were taken back from the Orthodox Church (which had stolen them) to the Catholic Church. They were the same churches which had previously been confiscated from Catholics and turned into Orthodox after 1795 by the Russians.

Here is how the history of those churches looked like:

Until 1795 - Catholic
1795-1918 - Orthodox
After 1918 - Catholic

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 10:08 PM
Volat, in one sentence you claim "Belarusians and Ukrainians can be Roman Catholics too, not all of those Roman Catholics were Poles!".

In another sentence you claim "closing Orthodox churches and opening Roman Catholic churches was Polonization and discrimination!".

Please make up your mind, because both sentences cannot be 100% true! Either you equate Catholicization with Polonization, or not!

And as I explained, it was mostly Re-Catholicization of churches which had been previously De-Catholicized by Russia after 1795. Sure, there were also examples when a church had been Greek Catholic until 1795, Orthodox in the 1800s, and Roman Catholic in the 1930s.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 10:16 PM
Also most Ukrainians I know claim they have some Polish ancestor(s) or relative(s) but then deny that Poles were so numerous in Ukraine. Belarusians do the same, they claim they have a Polish great-grandparent but then deny that Poles were ever a significant minority.

Weird contradictions.

Tomenable
09-20-2018, 10:23 PM
I know Volat from another forum. If I recall correctly, on Historum he used to claim that his wife is Polish, but then that she is not really Polish because Poles in Belarus are fake Poles. Make up your mind! What would your wife think about your anti-Polish posts?

Tomenable
09-21-2018, 05:34 PM
Data from Eastern Galicia:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=55846

Ukrainian estimates (by Kubijovyč)*:

Ukrainians - 64.3%
Poles - 25.1%
Jews - 9.8%
Germans etc. - 0.8%

Polish official data (1921 census):

Greek Catholic & Orthodox - 62.5%
Roman Catholic - 25.9%
Jews - 11%
Protestants - 0.6%

*Kubijovyč Vladimír, "Ethnic groups of the South - Western Ukraine (Halycyna - Galicja) 1.1.1939. National Statistics of Halycyna-Galicja".

Alternatively: Kubijovyč Vladimír, "Етнiчнi грyпи пiвдeннoзaxiдньoї Укpaїни (Гaличини) нa 1.1.1939", Wiesbaden 1983.

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Kubijovyč was Ukrainian nationalist and Nazi collaborator (cooperated with Hans Frank) who promoted expulsion of Poles from Lublin Land:


Autor był ukraińskim nacjonalistą, w czasie wojny blisko współpracowal z Hansem Frankiem i postulował między innymi wysiedlenie Polaków z Lubelszczyzny. Aby wykazac słabość Polaków i dominację Ukraińców podzielił Polaków na Polaków właściwych, tzw. łacinników i tzw. polskich kolonistów.

^^^ That's why he didivded Poles into three groups and marked them with 3 different colours in his maps, while grouping Ukrainians and Rusyns as one. Nevertheless, he arrived at similar numbers as the Polish 1921 census, as long as we assume that only Roman Catholics were Poles.