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R.Rocca
09-17-2018, 06:40 PM
This post is in reference to Cassidy's thesis as announced here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=488883&viewfull=1#post488883


Abstract:
This thesis provides an initial demographic scaffold for Irish prehistory based on the palaeogenomic analysis of 93 ancient individuals from all major periods of the island's human occupation, sequenced to a median of 1X coverage. ADMIXTURE and principal component analysis identify three ancestrally distinct Irish populations, whose inhabitation of the island corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras, with large scale migration to the island implied during the transitionary periods. Haplotypic-based sharing methods and Y chromosome analysis demonstrate strong continuity between the Early Bronze Age and modern Irish populations, suggesting no substantial population replacement has occurred on the island since this point in time. The Mesolithic population shares high genetic drift with contemporaries from France and Luxembourg and shows evidence of a severe inbreeding bottleneck, apparent through runs of homozygosity (ROH). Substantial contributions from both Mediterranean farming groups and northwestern hunter-gatherers are evident in the Neolithic Irish population. Moreover, evidence for local Mesolithic survival and introgression in southwestern Ireland, long after the commencement of the Neolithic, is also implied in haplotypic-analysis. Societal complexity during the Neolithic is suggested in patterns of Y chromosome and autosomal structure, while the identification of a highly inbred individual through ROH analysis, retrieved from an elite burial context, strongly suggests the elaboration and expansion of megalithic monuments over the course of the Neolithic was accompanied in some regions by dynastic hierarchies. Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east. Signals of genetic continuity and change after this initial establishment of the Irish population are also explored, with haplotypic diversification evident between both the Bronze Age and Iron Age, and the Iron Age and present day. Across these intervals selection pressures related to nutrition appear to have acted, with variants involved in lactase persistence and skin depigmentation showing steady increases in frequency through time.

My take:

1. That three distinct populations existed in the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age is of no surprise and follows the same pattern seen on the continent. All three were associated with large scale migrations.
2. The strong Y chromosome continuity between the Bronze Age and modern Ireland obviously refers to R-L21 as it is the major modern clade and has already appeared in all three Rathlin Island samples.
3. Strong Mesolithic survival and introgression in southwestern Ireland, along with societal complexity in the Neolithic based on the Y chromosome could point to a I2a/G2a or I2a2/I2a1 division.
4. For the purposes of this thread, the interesting part of the abstract is as follows: "Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east."

Could the differences seen in steppe-related introgression also be related to differences in subclades of R-P312? Perhaps R-DF27 entering southerwestern Ireland from northwestern France and R-L21 entering from the Low Countries? Thoughts?

rms2
09-17-2018, 07:03 PM
I look forward to seeing the paper. I am also really looking forward to the new Olalde et al paper on ancient Iberia.

Webb
09-17-2018, 07:40 PM
I found this archived here from 2016 in a post by Paul using 2011 Busby data:

West Ireland -- 67 samples

L21 = 73.1%
U106 = 4.5%
U152 = 1.5%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.5%


South Ireland -- 89 samples

L21 = 74.2%
U106 = 3.4%
U152 = 1.1%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.9%


East Ireland -- 149 samples

L21 = 71.1%
U106 = 6.7%
U152 = 4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.4%


North Ireland -- 72 samples

L21 = 79.2%
U106 = 4.2%
U152 = 1.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 4.2%

Heber
09-17-2018, 10:21 PM
Some relevant papers indicating an Atlantic and Rhine Bell Beaker tradition

Before the Branches: towards a new understanding of (Late) Proto-Indo-European and Copper-to-Bronze Age Europe

https://www.academia.edu/22590425/Before_the_Branches_towards_a_new_understanding_of _Late_Proto-Indo-European_and_Copper-to-Bronze_Age_Europe

THE ARRIVAL OF THE BELL BEAKER SET IN BRITAIN AND IRELAND

https://www.academia.edu/24957136/THE_ARRIVAL_OF_THE_BELL_BEAKER_SET_IN_BRITAIN_AND_ IRELAND

Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between Iberia and the British Isles 2800-800 BC

https://www.academia.edu/22189046/Beakers_into_Bronze_Tracing_connections_between_Ib eria_and_the_British_Isles_2800-800_BC

Behind the warriors: Bell Beakers and identities in Atlantic Europe (third-millennium B.c.)

https://www.academia.edu/26779296/Behind_the_warriors_Bell_Beakers_and_identities_in _Atlantic_Europe_third_millennium_B.C._

Burial practices in Ireland during the late third millennium BC : Connecting new ideologies with local expressions

https://www.academia.edu/35797556/Burial_practices_in_Ireland_during_the_late_third_ millennium_BC_Connecting_new_ideologies_with_local _expressions

The background of the Celtic languages: theories from archaeology and linguistics

http://www.aemap.ac.uk/static/media/uploads/PDFs/gibson_wodtko_e-bamfflet.pdf

R.Rocca
09-18-2018, 01:56 AM
It could also be that different R-L21 sublcades (R-DF13 etc). were different routes as well.

Romilius
09-18-2018, 10:25 AM
I think that's better to wait and see the paper... I realize that everything hypothesized could be possible.

jdean
09-18-2018, 06:38 PM
I think that's better to wait and see the paper... I realize that everything hypothesized could be possible.

Bit of a wait though, really don't think I can bite my tongue for that long and there are plenty here far more vociferous than me : )

jdean
09-18-2018, 06:45 PM
the bit that got my curiosity was this statement


Haplotypic-based sharing methods and Y chromosome analysis demonstrate strong continuity between the Early Bronze Age and modern Irish populations, suggesting no substantial population replacement has occurred on the island since this point in time.

since I thought the Irish DNA Atlas Project had detected a fairly large Scandinavian element in the modern Irish which presumably arrived with Vikings ?

However thinking about it she specified population replacement which that clearly wasn't, but this does suggest there was a population replacement during the Bronze age the same as Britain.

CillKenny
09-18-2018, 07:27 PM
I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?

rms2
09-18-2018, 10:41 PM
It could also be that different R-L21 sublcades (R-DF13 etc). were different routes as well.

That doesn't seem likely to me. I think it could be that some I2a came up to SW Ireland with an early Iberian, collective tomb type of Bell Beaker.

The Rathlin Island guys were pretty high in steppe dna. They were L21 and buried in single graves.

Celt_??
09-19-2018, 12:31 AM
I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?

Thanks you.

Please report back to AG.

MitchellSince1893
09-19-2018, 01:37 AM
I’ve mentioned before that DF27 and U152 seem to have different concentrations in England with DF27 more prevalent along the English Channel facing counties and U152 along the North Sea counties. I’ve wondered if this was because the bulk of DF27 entered England via Brittany and Normandy while the bulk of U152 entered from Pas-de-Calais and further east?

R.Rocca
09-19-2018, 01:51 AM
That doesn't seem likely to me. I think it could be that some I2a came up to SW Ireland with an early Iberian, collective tomb type of Bell Beaker.

The Rathlin Island guys were pretty high in steppe dna. They were L21 and buried in single graves.

But the abstract seems to insinuate that both had steppe ancestry, but the SW had more Neolithic. We know the early Iberians had no steppe.

rms2
09-19-2018, 11:19 AM
But the abstract seems to insinuate that both had steppe ancestry, but the SW had more Neolithic. We know the early Iberians had no steppe.

I don't know. It says the following:



Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east.


Kind of an enigmatic passage.

It sounds like perhaps by "haplotypic affinities" they mean different haplogroups. Exactly what "distributions of steppe-related introgression" means, I'm not sure. It could just mean that all possessed steppe dna but at different levels, or it could mean that steppe dna wasn't present in every group everywhere.

I would be surprised if some clades of L21 came to Ireland from the Atlantic facade, while others came from north central Europe, and that the former had much more Neolithic farmer dna than the latter. It seems to me much more likely that the immigrants from the Atlantic facade had different "haploypic affinities" from those that came from north central Europe, i.e., those from the Atlantic weren't L21 and maybe weren't even R1b.

I'm not at home, so I don't have access to all my stuff, but I recall that one of the samples from the Boscombe Bowmen burial in England was R1b-L151 but L21-, and curiously that was the sample with the lowest level of steppe dna of all the British samples. Meanwhile, one of the other samples from the same burial was L21+ and by contrast had very high steppe dna.

I also recall reading that most of Irish Beaker is believed to have come there by way of Britain rather than by way of the Atlantic.

R.Rocca
09-19-2018, 02:54 PM
I don't know. It says the following:



Kind of an enigmatic passage.

It sounds like perhaps by "haplotypic affinities" they mean different haplogroups. Exactly what "distributions of steppe-related introgression" means, I'm not sure. It could just mean that all possessed steppe dna but at different levels, or it could mean that steppe dna wasn't present in every group everywhere.

I would be surprised if some clades of L21 came to Ireland from the Atlantic facade, while others came from north central Europe, and that the former had much more Neolithic farmer dna than the latter. It seems to me much more likely that the immigrants from the Atlantic facade had different "haploypic affinities" from those that came from north central Europe, i.e., those from the Atlantic weren't L21 and maybe weren't even R1b.

I'm not at home, so I don't have access to all my stuff, but I recall that one of the samples from the Boscombe Bowmen burial in England was R1b-L151 but L21-, and curiously that was the sample with the lowest level of steppe dna of all the British samples. Meanwhile, one of the other samples from the same burial was L21+ and by contrast had very high steppe dna.

I also recall reading that most of Irish Beaker is believed to have come there by way of Britain rather than by way of the Atlantic.

Yeah, my best guess is that I2a2 and/or I2a1 will be found in the SW will no or little steppe ancestry. If P312 is in play, my guess is that R-L21 took the Low Countries > Britain > East Ireland route and perhaps as R-DF27 continued to mix with Neolithic types in northern France they lost some steppe ancestry and crossed somewhere near Brittany.

Webb
09-19-2018, 03:48 PM
Yeah, my best guess is that I2a2 and/or I2a1 will be found in the SW will no or little steppe ancestry. If P312 is in play, my guess is that R-L21 took the Low Countries > Britain > East Ireland route and perhaps as R-DF27 continued to mix with Neolithic types in northern France they lost some steppe ancestry and crossed somewhere near Brittany.

I think without aDna showing DF27 in Ireland at an early date, it would be tough to prove. I posted the Busby data, because it does show P312xL21xU152 at around 7% in West and South/West Ireland, if we assume most of this is DF27. Under ZZ12 half of DF27 in Alex's tree, there is an Irish cluster with 9 different distinct Irish surnames, A641. According to Alex's tree this block has a formed date of 152 B.C. One block up is FGC22202, which has a formed date of 1365 B.C., but has two additional surnames without flags and may or may not be Irish. More interesting, though, is the Irish DF17 cluster, with Mulvihill being FGC14115, formed around 143 B.C., by himself. Then the parent block to his, FGC14117, formed around 664 B.C,, which has Durkin, Meehan, and Connell. I believe all four are linked to Connacht. There are quite a few scattered DF27 Irish kits, but these are the two main clusters.

Dubhthach
09-19-2018, 04:08 PM
I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?

I'm hoping to go, but it might be touch and go. I have to go to Amsterdam for DNS-OARC/Centr-Tech + Ripe 77 meetings for work, so there from Friday the 12th to Thursday the 18th. Will probably just take the Friday off work and go to the meeting hopefully.

ADW_1981
09-19-2018, 04:09 PM
I'm a little surprised DF27+ is even that high in Ireland (from Myres 2011), maybe it's just specific branches, because I'm fairly certain Z209 isn't very common at all. L21+ is still the most numerous in Britanny, so assuming an Atlantic route for some, maybe there was a minority of ZZ12 that tagged along. DF17+, the brother to Z209+ seems to match a more "Celtic" distribution, I believe both brothers so to speak, are linked to the spread of Celtic culture, despite the fact that U152+ seems to be the one that keeps turning up in aDNA.

rms2
09-19-2018, 11:09 PM
I'm a little surprised DF27+ is even that high in Ireland (from Myres 2011), maybe it's just specific branches, because I'm fairly certain Z209 isn't very common at all. L21+ is still the most numerous in Britanny, so assuming an Atlantic route for some, maybe there was a minority of ZZ12 that tagged along. DF17+, the brother to Z209+ seems to match a more "Celtic" distribution, I believe both brothers so to speak, are linked to the spread of Celtic culture, despite the fact that U152+ seems to be the one that keeps turning up in aDNA.

Yeah, except that probably much of the L21 in Bretagne arrived there during the exodus from Britain in the immediate post-Roman period and may not have been there in the Late Neolithic/EBA.

Heber
09-20-2018, 12:28 AM
I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?

I have a conflicting conference on the Friday but will definately be at GGI2018.

I am managing an Egan sample which is DF27 and part of the Breassal Breac cluster of Lower Ormond with names including Kennedy, Ryan, Egan, Carroll, Gormon. So DF27 in Ireland in Ireland clusters with traditional Gaelic surnames.

ADW_1981
09-20-2018, 01:03 AM
Yeah, except that probably much of the L21 in Bretagne arrived there during the exodus from Britain in the immediate post-Roman period and may not have been there in the Late Neolithic/EBA.

Yes that might be the case, especially if L21+ crossed from the Netherlands area initially with the central Euro Beaker, and something like DF27 crossing from NW France being considered "Atlantic". That said, it's equally possible that L21+ was already in both places. DF27 might have been limited to a band in southern Germany, Switzerland, and NW Italy/S France. The latter case might actually be the case since DF27 and U152 form a common group (with distribution in the band I mentioned) with L21+ being an outlier to it.

ADW_1981
09-20-2018, 01:06 AM
I have a conflicting conference on the Friday but will definately be at GGI2018.

I am managing an Egan sample which is DF27 and part of the Breassal Breac cluster of Lower Ormond with names including Kennedy, Ryan, Egan, Carroll, Gormon.

There was some rumour being spread on FB about R1b being found in a megalithic tomb in Ireland. Not sure the validity here. If the megalithic groups form male kinships, I would have expected it to pop up before, especially in Spain.

Webb
09-20-2018, 01:46 AM
I have a conflicting conference on the Friday but will definately be at GGI2018.

I am managing an Egan sample which is DF27 and part of the Breassal Breac cluster of Lower Ormond with names including Kennedy, Ryan, Egan, Carroll, Gormon.

This is one of the DF27 clusters I mentioned in my post. It is very interesting.

Tolan
09-20-2018, 06:08 AM
This post is in reference to Cassidy's thesis as announced here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=488883&viewfull=1#post488883


Could the differences seen in steppe-related introgression also be related to differences in subclades of R-P312? Perhaps R-DF27 entering southerwestern Ireland from northwestern France and R-L21 entering from the Low Countries? Thoughts?

I do not thing so!
L21 is more common than DF27 throughout the northern half of France.
DF27 in Ireland probably has nothing to do with a mix with Neolithic.
On the other hand, the presence of more Neolithic in the South of Ireland in ancient sample, can be of local origin and not extra-local...

CillKenny
09-20-2018, 09:24 AM
I have a conflicting conference on the Friday but will definately be at GGI2018.

I am managing an Egan sample which is DF27 and part of the Breassal Breac cluster of Lower Ormond with names including Kennedy, Ryan, Egan, Carroll, Gormon.
Thanks Gerard. I am still working to move things around for tomorrow. I suspect that the DF27 group will be the outlier group. The Dwyers are part of that group too I think.

rms2
09-20-2018, 10:55 AM
There was some rumour being spread on FB about R1b being found in a megalithic tomb in Ireland. Not sure the validity here. If the megalithic groups form male kinships, I would have expected it to pop up before, especially in Spain.

Beaker wedge tombs in Ireland are considered megaliths, but they are not Neolithic farmer-type megaliths.

They are megaliths because they are constructed of great (mega) stones (lithos).

I'd be surprised if Irish wedge tombs did not produce any R1b.

jdean
09-20-2018, 11:28 AM
There was some rumour being spread on FB about R1b being found in a megalithic tomb in Ireland. Not sure the validity here. If the megalithic groups form male kinships, I would have expected it to pop up before, especially in Spain.

Presumably from a comment made by a banned idjit based on a complete misreading of the abstract.

cacarlos
09-20-2018, 11:40 AM
There was some rumour being spread on FB about R1b being found in a megalithic tomb in Ireland. Not sure the validity here. If the megalithic groups form male kinships, I would have expected it to pop up before, especially in Spain.

There is R1b (V88) in Iberia_EN (ca. 5294-5066 calBCE) from Els Trocs, and also R1b (V88) in Blatterhohle_MN (ca. 3958-3344 calBCE). So it seems possible.

R.Rocca
09-20-2018, 12:53 PM
There is R1b (V88) in Iberia_EN (ca. 5294-5066 calBCE) from Els Trocs, and also R1b (V88) in Blatterhohle_MN (ca. 3958-3344 calBCE). So it seems possible.

Also R1b (pre-V88) was found in the Middle Neolithic Blatterhole Cave in NW Germany. So, nothing to do with steppe ancestry or R-L23 lineages.

Webb
09-20-2018, 01:19 PM
Thanks Gerard. I am still working to move things around for tomorrow. I suspect that the DF27 group will be the outlier group. The Dwyers are part of that group too I think.

Yes they are.

R.Rocca
09-20-2018, 05:31 PM
As I've stated in the past, the reduction of steppe ancestry in Western European Bell Beaker samples was due to continual mixing over time. The same scenario was reported for Germany in today's conference:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DncNeZuXoAARNWm.jpg

rms2
09-20-2018, 07:56 PM
As I've stated in the past, the reduction of steppe ancestry in Western European Bell Beaker samples was due to continual mixing over time. The same scenario was reported for Germany in today's conference:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DncNeZuXoAARNWm.jpg

Yes, and that was what Reich was talking about when he mentioned the much greater level of Y chromosome replacement than in the rest of the genome.

rms2
09-20-2018, 10:13 PM
As I've stated in the past, the reduction of steppe ancestry in Western European Bell Beaker samples was due to continual mixing over time. The same scenario was reported for Germany in today's conference:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DncNeZuXoAARNWm.jpg


Yes, and that was what Reich was talking about when he mentioned the much greater level of Y chromosome replacement than in the rest of the genome.

Here's another thing: the fact that Reich speaks so confidently of replacement by a Y chromosome type of steppe origin, pretty obviously meaning R1b-P312, and contrasts that with the lower level of steppe dna in the rest of the genome, I find revealing.

It's hard to believe that he would commit statements like that to print if he wasn't sure of his facts.

alexfritz
09-21-2018, 01:15 AM
think its pretty clear that it has not much to do with the y chromosome yet all with the x chromosome (mathieson et al) but a comeback's a comeback! and it kills the pestilence thesis a bit no way in hell a disease only erased the farmer males and left that many females unscathed, goldberg et al already hinted at such proportions of males/females so a blind person could have made these observations but such a re-emergence and such a profile dominating BA hungary and south germany who would have thought, and MBA south germany is full blown tumulus culture and that says alot;

CillKenny
09-21-2018, 11:22 AM
I managed to attend. It was a 10 minute run through and as I arrived late I was too far away for my phone camera. I would caveat my summary in that regard.

Interesting points. They have 100 samples from distinct periods and a good geographic spread. The mesolithic population arrived from the east. Their closest links to the continent is N France and Luxembourg. Lara noted this was a surprise. The neolithic momument builders seemed to be highly centred on western Scotland - not sure if that is where they arrived from. Steppe had a bigger impact in Britain and seemed to come from N France to SE England. Steppe in Ireland is less found in SW Munster, which chimes with the findings or studies released recently that this area is the least touched by later migrations. Lara did not discuss ydna.

I may edit when I check my notes.

R.Rocca
09-21-2018, 01:17 PM
think its pretty clear that it has not much to do with the y chromosome yet all with the x chromosome (mathieson et al) but a comeback's a comeback! and it kills the pestilence thesis a bit no way in hell a disease only erased the farmer males and left that many females unscathed, goldberg et al already hinted at such proportions of males/females so a blind person could have made these observations but such a re-emergence and such a profile dominating BA hungary and south germany who would have thought, and MBA south germany is full blown tumulus culture and that says alot;

This is all in line with the Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture sample RISE471 (1691-1519 calBCE). He had elevated farmer ancestry but was R-U152+ L2+ just like his Bell Beaker ancestors.

I had uploaded him to Gedmatch a while ago: T722032

rms2
09-21-2018, 11:31 PM
Pretty obviously the steppe incursion west, which transmitted steppe y-dna (R1b-P310), steppe autosomal dna, and Indo-European languages, was largely male mediated.

That's why, as time went on, Neolithic farmer autosomal dna increased at the expense of steppe autosomal dna: because steppe-derived men were taking local wives.

That is what Reich says, and I think he knows - really knows.

rms2
09-22-2018, 09:26 PM
In order to make L51 a non-steppe, non-IE haplogroup, one has to separate it from its brother clade under L23, Z2103. According to YFull's estimates, L51 and Z2103 are about the same age, so, to make L51 a non-steppe haplogroup, one has to do one of the following:

1) imagine that L23 existed both in Europe west of the steppe and on the steppe and that an L23 progenitor west of the steppe fathered L51 at about the same time that an L23 progenitor on the steppe fathered Z2103; or

2) imagine that both L51 and Z2103 were born west of the steppe at about the same time, and Z2103 migrated east to the steppe in time to become part of Yamnaya, leaving L51 behind as a - what? - Neolithic farmer lineage.

IMHO, both of those options are ridiculous, given the fact that L51 has not appeared in ancient central and western European remains before about 2600 BC, without steppe autosomal dna, or in cultures other than those that are steppe derived.

Here is a very simple graphic I made to illustrate what I am talking about.

26122

Heber
09-22-2018, 11:42 PM
I plan to attend this event. Should be interesting.

Interdisciplinary Research on the Origins of the Irish People

Tuesday, 9 October 2018, 5 – 7:30pm

Interdisciplinary Research on the Origins of the Irish People: Launch of TCD’s Centre for New Irish Studies.

On Tuesday 9th October 2018, 5pm, the Centre for New Irish Studies (CNIS) will be launched with the event Interdisciplinary Research on the Origins of the Irish People. A panel discussion will comprise talks from Professor Jim Mallory (Queen’s University Belfast), Professor Dan Bradley (Trinity College Dublin), Dr Rowan McLaughlin (Queen’s University Belfast) and Dr Lara Cassidy (Trinity College Dublin). The leading researchers will discuss their interdisciplinary approach to examining the Irish people and their origins, as well as a more general discussion about Irish Studies and interdisciplinarity.

The CNIS, directed by Dr Mark Hennessy, is generously hosted by the Trinity Long Room Hub Arts and Humanities Research institute. The panel will be followed by a reception in the Hoey Ideas Space. Registration is required for both elements of the event.

R.Rocca
09-23-2018, 12:19 AM
In order to make L51 a non-steppe, non-IE haplogroup

We might as well try to make water dry or fire cold.

MitchellSince1893
09-23-2018, 12:39 AM
In order to make L51 a non-steppe, non-IE haplogroup, one has to separate it from its brother clade under L23, Z2103. According to YFull's estimates, L51 and Z2103 are about the same age, so, to make L51 a non-steppe haplogroup, one has to do one of the following:

1) imagine that L23 existed both in Europe west of the steppe and on the steppe and that an L23 progenitor west of the steppe fathered L51 at about the same time that an L23 progenitor on the steppe fathered Z2103; or

2) imagine that both L51 and Z2103 were born west of the steppe at about the same time, and Z2103 migrated east to the steppe in time to become part of Yamnaya, leaving L51 behind as a - what? - Neolithic farmer lineage.

IMHO, both of those options are ridiculous, given the fact that L51 has not appeared in ancient central and western European remains before about 2600 BC, without steppe autosomal dna, or in cultures other than those that are steppe derived.

Here is a very simple graphic I made to illustrate what I am talking about.

26122

Or option 3...the "Moses" Option: Living on the North shore of the Black Sea, L51's mom puts little L51 in a reed boat with a huge amount of food and water (he's gonna need it to make this journey), and launches him into the Black Sea. He floats through the Bosporus into the Aegean Sea and eventually makes landfall in the Western Med where is spends the rest of his days.

It could happen ;)

rms2
09-23-2018, 01:41 AM
Or option 3...the "Moses" Option: Living on the North shore of the Black Sea, L51's mom puts little L51 in a reed boat with a huge amount of food and water (he's gonna need it to make this journey), and launches him into the Black Sea. He floats through the Bosporus into the Aegean Sea and eventually makes landfall in the Western Med where is spends the rest of his days.

It could happen ;)

Of course, Moses looked a lot like Charlton Heston and married a woman (Zipporah) who looked just like Yvonne De Carlo, so that's not bad.

R.Rocca
09-23-2018, 03:14 PM
I think what most anti-steppists fail to realize is that the steppe does not end in the Ukraine but in the middle Danube.

R.Rocca
09-24-2018, 05:29 PM
I managed to attend. It was a 10 minute run through and as I arrived late I was too far away for my phone camera. I would caveat my summary in that regard.

Interesting points. They have 100 samples from distinct periods and a good geographic spread. The mesolithic population arrived from the east. Their closest links to the continent is N France and Luxembourg. Lara noted this was a surprise. The neolithic momument builders seemed to be highly centred on western Scotland - not sure if that is where they arrived from. Steppe had a bigger impact in Britain and seemed to come from N France to SE England. Steppe in Ireland is less found in SW Munster, which chimes with the findings or studies released recently that this area is the least touched by later migrations. Lara did not discuss ydna.

I may edit when I check my notes.

That reminds me of Barry Cunliffe's maps of movements related to French(Iberian?) Maritime Bell beaker versus those coming from NE France and the Rhine. Obviously L21 was involved in the latter:

http://r1b.org/imgs/Maritime_and_Rhenish.png

Webb
09-26-2018, 03:07 PM
That reminds me of Barry Cunliffe's maps of movements related to French(Iberian?) Maritime Bell beaker versus those coming from NE France and the Rhine. Obviously L21 was involved in the latter:

http://r1b.org/imgs/Maritime_and_Rhenish.png

I don't know why, but on the supplementary table spreadsheet, S4 of the Meyer paper, the S116*(xM529xU152) percentages are higher.

Ireland East: 18.8%
Ireland North: 14.3%
Ireland South: 12.5%
Ireland Southwest: 22.7%
Ireland West: 0%

razyn
09-26-2018, 05:33 PM
I don't know why, but on the supplementary table spreadsheet, S4 of the Meyer paper, the S116*(xM529xU152) percentages are higher.

Ireland East: 18.8%
Ireland North: 14.3%
Ireland South: 12.5%
Ireland Southwest: 22.7%
Ireland West: 0%

By "the Meyer paper" do you mean Natalie M. Myres et al (EJHG, Jan. 2011)? We DF27 guys have had a hella time digging out from under that S116* stuff, especially Fig. 1 (k). I'm not currently looking at the Supplementary Table 4. But she's done a lot more papers since then, luckily about topics I don't need to argue with. Several people have referred here to her papers as "his" work, which it ain't; and spelling her surname phonetically also is not rare. Credit for the pioneering effort; but can we please move on to the modern era of NGS sequencing, nuclear aDNA, long STR profiles, etc. that she did not have to work with, in 2010 (when that paper got sent to the EJHG editors)?

Webb
09-26-2018, 05:41 PM
By "the Meyer paper" do you mean Natalie M. Myres et al (EJHG, Jan. 2011)? We DF27 guys have had a hella time digging out from under that S116* stuff, especially Fig. 1 (k). I'm not currently looking at the Supplementary Table 4. But she's done a lot more papers since then, luckily about topics I don't need to argue with. Several people have referred here to her papers as "his" work, which it ain't; and spelling her surname phonetically also is not rare. Credit for the pioneering effort; but can we please move on to the modern era of NGS sequencing, nuclear aDNA, long STR profiles, etc. that she did not have to work with, in 2010 (when that paper got sent to the EJHG editors)?

Unfortunately, I can only post during breaks and lunch, and have to guestimate names and dates of research papers. Tables, though, I can save to reference later. I keep a shortcut to Alex's tree on my Iphone, so I can access it quickly. Meiers, Meyers, Myres. If she had a name like Webb, it would be much easier. I routinely butcher names here in Pittsburgh as well.

R.Rocca
09-26-2018, 06:13 PM
By "the Meyer paper" do you mean Natalie M. Myres et al (EJHG, Jan. 2011)? We DF27 guys have had a hella time digging out from under that S116* stuff, especially Fig. 1 (k). I'm not currently looking at the Supplementary Table 4. But she's done a lot more papers since then, luckily about topics I don't need to argue with. Several people have referred here to her papers as "his" work, which it ain't; and spelling her surname phonetically also is not rare. Credit for the pioneering effort; but can we please move on to the modern era of NGS sequencing, nuclear aDNA, long STR profiles, etc. that she did not have to work with, in 2010 (when that paper got sent to the EJHG editors)?

While we await more ancient DNA... are there any geographically relevant splits in the DF27 tree that allows for some kind of speculation as to how is spread?

razyn
09-26-2018, 06:52 PM
While we await more ancient DNA... are there any geographically relevant splits in the DF27 tree that allows for some kind of speculation as to how it spread?

Well, you and Webb and I (among others, but we do have a pattern) have kicked this around for a while. I thought in 2013, and I still think, that there was a detectable pattern within Z295, at least. Maybe, at most. Every time we think we see a pattern, we discover its exceptions; and even if they prove the basic pattern, none of these hoped-for neat divisions turns out to have been quite as neat as we first hoped. Just to refresh the conversation, here are links to a couple of my nicely-spaced (two-plus years apart) attempts to address this topic:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1275-DF27-Z295-CTS4065&p=12551&viewfull=1#post12551

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1275-DF27-Z295-CTS4065&p=197722&viewfull=1#post197722

The current form of your question is much broader than the geography of Z295, per se. But it's the same idea; just a few rungs back up the ladder. Alex's Big Tree is a better place to look for the underlying pattern than Natalie's Old Paper. But nobody's perfect. And almost everybody still thinks Iberia has to be ruled in, or out, as the first order of business -- because, look where all the red is, in the Eupedia map of DF27!

Sigh.

Heber
09-27-2018, 12:22 PM
I plan to Live Stream the talks, but only with the permission of the speakers.

Lara Cassidy - Speaker Profile

Presentation: A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory

What will be discussed?
Lara will discuss the findings of her recently completed thesis which assessed the genomes of 93 ancient skeletal remains across the island of Ireland. This analysis provides the most comprehensive analysis yet of prehistorical migrations into Ireland and how the arrival of these waves of new populations shaped who the people of Ireland are today.

Background:

Lara developed an interest in biology and evolution from a young age through popular science books left lying around the house by her father. She went on to complete an undergraduate degree in Human Genetics at the Smurfit Institute of Genetics, Trinity College Dublin and finished with first-class honours.

She was subsequently awarded a postgraduate scholarship by the Irish Research Council to undertake a PhD in Palaeogenomics the Bradley Lab at the same institute. The main focus of this project was the sequencing of ancient human genomes from all periods of the island's prehistory to study past demography.

The first publication of this work (Cassidy et al. 2016) presented a new demographic scaffold for the island, proposing that at least three ancestrally distinct Irish populations have existed on the island, whose inhabitation corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras. Large scale migrations into the island are implied during the transitionary periods carrying with them ancestry ultimately derived from Anatolia and later the Russian steppe.

Lara completed her PhD last year and is now continuing on with her work on Irish human ancient genomics as a postdoctoral researcher in the Bradley lab.


Employment Experience:

2018- to date: Postdoctoral Researcher, Trinity College Dublin. PI: Prof Dan Bradley
Project: Ancient Genomics and the Atlantic Burden

June 2012 - August 2012: Research Assistant, Ecological Genetics Lab, National Institute of Genetics, Mishima, Japan. Supervisor: Prof Jun Kitano.
Project: Investigating the phylogeography of Japanese threespine sticklebacks using microsatellite markers.

Education & Qualifications:

2013-2018: Ph.D. Genetics, Trinity College Dublin

2009-2013: B.A Human Genetics, Trinity College Dublin; First Class Honours

Other Merits:

The Leslie Bloomer Prize in Human Genetics, Trinity College Dublin (2012)
Gold Medal for Degree Examinations, Trinity College Dublin (2013)
Overall winner in the Life Sciences category of the 2013 Undergraduate Awards

Links:

Lara's thesis is available at the following link but access is embargoed until May 2020 - A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory ... http://www.tara.tcd.ie/handle/2262/82960

https://ggi2013.blogspot.com/2018/09/lara-cassidy-speaker-profile.html

Webb
09-27-2018, 01:15 PM
While we await more ancient DNA... are there any geographically relevant splits in the DF27 tree that allows for some kind of speculation as to how is spread?

Without having a nice sampling of aDna for DF27, we have to rely on Yfull and/or the BigTree for age estimates. How does McDonald's age estimates stand up to radio carbon dating? For example, Alex has Lovosice CZ - DA111 on his tree. Alex has assigned him to block S14469, with a McDonald age estimation of 1836 B.C. Was this kit radio carbon dated? If so, is the age estimation close?

R.Rocca
09-27-2018, 02:46 PM
Without having a nice sampling of aDna for DF27, we have to rely on Yfull and/or the BigTree for age estimates. How does McDonald's age estimates stand up to radio carbon dating? For example, Alex has Lovosice CZ - DA111 on his tree. Alex has assigned him to block S14469, with a McDonald age estimation of 1836 B.C. Was this kit radio carbon dated? If so, is the age estimation close?

The radiocarbon dating puts the sample at 836-780 BC, but he could obviously have downstream SNPs that are not a match to any modern day Big-Y testers.

R.Rocca
09-27-2018, 03:17 PM
Well, you and Webb and I (among others, but we do have a pattern) have kicked this around for a while. I thought in 2013, and I still think, that there was a detectable pattern within Z295, at least. Maybe, at most. Every time we think we see a pattern, we discover its exceptions; and even if they prove the basic pattern, none of these hoped-for neat divisions turns out to have been quite as neat as we first hoped. Just to refresh the conversation, here are links to a couple of my nicely-spaced (two-plus years apart) attempts to address this topic:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1275-DF27-Z295-CTS4065&p=12551&viewfull=1#post12551

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1275-DF27-Z295-CTS4065&p=197722&viewfull=1#post197722

The current form of your question is much broader than the geography of Z295, per se. But it's the same idea; just a few rungs back up the ladder. Alex's Big Tree is a better place to look for the underlying pattern than Natalie's Old Paper. But nobody's perfect. And almost everybody still thinks Iberia has to be ruled in, or out, as the first order of business -- because, look where all the red is, in the Eupedia map of DF27!

Sigh.

Since the post was from 2016, I thought more samples would have given different perspectives, but thanks for the reminder.

Just eyeballing U152, there seems to be an East-West subclade division somewhere around the lower Rhine and a North-South subclade division somewhere along the Middle Rhine. Specifically, all areas of the Eastern Bell Beaker "province" seem to be resolved to U152>L2 when resolution allows for it, and that is even the case up to the Hallstatt period. It is curious that no other P312 subclades have been found there to date, whereas more distant cousins Z2103 (in Bell Beaker) and U106 (in Unetice) have been. This is all based on memory, so perhaps others can correct me.

razyn
09-27-2018, 07:06 PM
There is still a poopload of ancient P312* that hasn't been resolved to anything we know to be below that. I don't honestly think that's because it's "basal" P312, even if it's 4,500 or more years old. Maybe it's a subclade that's gone extinct; but also maybe it's something the researchers aren't looking for, or couldn't see if they were, or wouldn't recognize if they saw it. There are several possibilities; one is that there's a bunch of unidentified DF27 staring us in the face, that will never be called what it is. And btw a bunch more of U152; because they aren't calling that position -- they're calling L2, and luckily, we know what peg to hang that on.

In that regard, the following recent post that nobody is reading points to another recent post, that also nobody is reading; and the latter contains a recent slide (from a Reich lecture last week), showing that the top aDNA labs in the world are still basing their YDNA hunt on the crappy ISOGG tree. And they are about to revise their search string, and have just asked for help. Can someone please help them? https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-which-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=492129&viewfull=1#post492129

Osiris
09-27-2018, 11:50 PM
There is still a poopload of ancient P312* that hasn't been resolved to anything we know to be below that. I don't honestly think that's because it's "basal" P312, even if it's 4,500 or more years old. Maybe it's a subclade that's gone extinct; but also maybe it's something the researchers aren't looking for, or couldn't see if they were, or wouldn't recognize if they saw it. There are several possibilities; one is that there's a bunch of unidentified DF27 staring us in the face, that will never be called what it is. And btw a bunch more of U152; because they aren't calling that position -- they're calling L2, and luckily, we know what peg to hang that on.

In that regard, the following recent post that nobody is reading points to another recent post, that also nobody is reading; and the latter contains a recent slide (from a Reich lecture last week), showing that the top aDNA labs in the world are still basing their YDNA hunt on the crappy ISOGG tree. And they are about to revise their search string, and have just asked for help. Can someone please help them? https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-which-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=492129&viewfull=1#post492129
I'd send them a list of the great grandchildren of P312 and U106 going off of the Big Tree. Or would it be better to have one of the more respected members of us send the list over. It also sounds like this panel would be used on samples from all over the world.

razyn
09-28-2018, 05:47 PM
I'd send them a list of the great grandchildren of P312 and U106 going off of the Big Tree. Or would it be better to have one of the more respected members of us send the list over. It also sounds like this panel would be used on samples from all over the world.

What they say they are revising is the "capture reagent," not in itself a panel; but I think the reagent at least partially predetermines what the "panel" is expected to detect. YDNA is already a small percentage of what they look for. But it's the most obviously useful part, for tracing male-biased human migration events.

rms2
09-28-2018, 11:22 PM
I'm wildly hoping some ancient L21, at least one, will show up in the upcoming paper represented by the abstract below, since the Amesbury Archer is supposed to have been born and raised in the Swiss or South German Alps and to have taken his son, "The Companion", back there for a number of years when The Companion was small.



Genetic transition in the Swiss Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age

A. Furtwängler et al

Major genetic turnovers in European populations marked the beginning as well as final stages of the Neolithic period as shown by recent studies. The transition from hunter-gatherers to agriculturalists and farmers in the 6th millennium BCE coincided with a human migration from the Near East. A second migration into Central Europe occurred originating from the Pontic steppe in the 3rd millennium BCE and was linked to the spread of the Corded Ware Culture which ranged as far southwest as modern day Western Switzerland. These genetic processes are well studied, for example for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region in Eastern Germany, however, little is known from the regions that connect Central and Southern Europe.

In this study, we investigate genome-wide data from 97 individuals from the Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace region in France that span the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (5500 to 4000 BP). Our results show a similar genetic process as reported for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all the way into the Swiss Plateau. However, our evidence suggests that the onset of that transition may have started even earlier in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale region.

The existence of core families within multiple burials, the determination and quantification of different ancestry components and the evaluation of a migration route taken by the ancestors of the Late Neolithic populations in this region were analysed. Our data represent the first comprehensive genome wide dataset from Neolithic individuals from the Swiss Plateau and provide the first insights into the genetic history of this region.

rms2
09-29-2018, 10:49 PM
Another hint that the Romans made a big impression in SE Britain:

People in South East may be descended from Romans as study suggests invaders may have stayed in Britain (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/04/11/did-romans-leave-genetic-legacy-britain/)

Heber
10-03-2018, 11:09 AM
If CHG and R1b had already massively occupied Iberia between 4000 - 4500 ybp, then we may find an Atlantic route with DF27 and Britain route with L21 to Ireland.
The Cassidey Ireland and Reich Iberian papers are key to resolving this.

"This figure from Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia basically says it all. Around the transition between the Iberian Neolithic and the Bronze Age a new element came into the Iberian peninsula with affinities with populations to the north and east. The samples are not dense enough in terms of time to give a precise date, but this paper seems to suggest somewhere between 4,000 and 4,500 years as the most likely interval. The Reich group probably has more samples and so can date it more precisely. Interestingly, ~4,500 years ago is exactly when R1b bearing males arrived, and there was massive genetic turnover, in the British Isles. Perhaps the correlation between these two regions being overrun at the same time is not coincidental?"

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/09/29/the-sons-of-japeth-divide-the-world-between-them/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2180923-every-man-in-spain-was-wiped-out-4500-years-ago-by-hostile-invaders/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=SOC&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1538115037

Heber
10-10-2018, 06:31 AM
Interdisciplinary Research on the Origins of the Irish People

Tuesday, 9 October 2018, 5 – 7:30pm

Interdisciplinary Research on the Origins of the Irish People: Launch of TCD’s Centre for New Irish Studies.

On Tuesday 9th October 2018, 5pm, the Trinity Centre for New Irish Studies (CNIS) will be launched with the event Interdisciplinary Research on the Origins of the Irish People. A panel discussion will comprise talks from Professor Jim Mallory (Queen’s University Belfast), Professor Dan Bradley (Trinity College Dublin), Dr Rowan McLaughlin (Queen’s University Belfast) and Dr Lara Cassidy (Trinity College Dublin). The leading researchers will discuss their interdisciplinary approach to examining the Irish people and their origins, as well as a more general discussion about Irish Studies and interdisciplinarity.

Great presentations by all four of the above speakers.
Lara discussed the initial findings of her research:
The main focus of this project was the sequencing of ancient human genomes from all periods of Ireland's prehistory to study the island's past demography. The first publication of this work (Cassidy et al. 2016) presented a new demographic scaffold for the island, proposing that at least three ancestrally distinct Irish populations have existed on the island, whose inhabitation corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras, with strong continuity observed from the Bronze Age onwards. Lara completed her PhD last year and is now continuing on with this same project as a postdoctoral researcher in the Bradley lab.

1) An Ancient Irish Genomic Dataset: Over 100 Ancient genomes sequenced.
2) These can be partitioned into three distinct populations using descriptive statistics (PCA and Admixture)
3) Discussed Mesolithic, Neolithic, Chalcolitic, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Modern
4) Mesolithic formed in three southern refugee, Iberia, Italy, Caucasus
5) Neolithic from Anatolia via Megalithic Atlantic movement
6) Bronze Age from Steppes with massive population replacement
7) in Ireland there is a clear North East / South West Cline in the “Teal” CHG Steppe component
8) There is uneven distribution of Steppe Ancestry in British and Irish Copper/Bronze Age
9) Continuity in Irish Atlantic Genome since Bronze Age
9) Genes mirror geography in modern Britain and Ireland, S.Munster, N.Munster, Leinster, Connacht, Ulster
10) Discussion on emergence of Proto Celtic Language
11) How do our Irish Bronze Age and Iron Age populations relate to modern Irish populations
12) West to East, Irish Iron Age, Irish Bronze Age, British Iron Age, Anglo Saxon

Dr Ronan McLaughlin work has focussed on prehistoric Europe, and Irish populations from all times from the Stone Age until recent centuries.
2,000+ excavated sites documented in archealogy database with many due to recent construction of motorway network.
Uses Big Data and Analytics techniques.
Population crash observed in Ireland and throughout Europe at end of Bronze Age.
Discussion of reasons for three boom/bust cycles through Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze ages.
Discussion on use of cremation and inhumations in burial practice through Neolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Early Christian

https://pure.qub.ac.uk/portal/files/51967609/the_changing_face.pdf

“This paper synthesizes and discusses the spatial and temporal patterns of archaeological sites in Ireland, spanning the Neolithic period and the Bronze Age transition (4300–1900 cal BC), in order to explore the timing and implications of the main changes that occurred in the archaeological record of that period. Large amounts of new data are sourced from unpublished developer-led excavations and combined with national archives, published excavations and online databases.”

Generalissimo
10-10-2018, 07:17 AM
If CHG and R1b had already massively occupied Iberia between 4000 - 4500 ybp, then we may find an Atlantic route with DF27 and Britain route with L21 to Ireland.
The Cassidey Ireland and Reich Iberian papers are key to resolving this.

Calling it CHG isn't accurate. It was Yamnaya-related ancestry from the steppe, and in fact a mix of EHG and CHG.

Heber
10-19-2018, 11:42 AM
GGI2018 is now streamed live on the Genetic Genealogy Ireland Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/geneticgenealogyireland/

Heber
10-20-2018, 10:29 PM
Here are my notes from GGI2018 including recap from CNIS lecture.

1. Lara discussed the initial findings of her research:
2. The main focus of this project was the sequencing of ancient human genomes from all periods of Ireland's prehistory to study the island's past demography. The first publication of this work (Cassidy et al. 2016) presented a new demographic scaffold for the island, proposing that at least three ancestrally distinct Irish populations have existed on the island, whose inhabitation corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras, with strong continuity observed from the Bronze Age onwards. Lara completed her PhD last year and is now continuing on with this same project as a postdoctoral researcher in the Bradley lab.
3. Excellent comprehensive presentation at GGI2018
4. An Ancient Irish Genomic Dataset: Over 100 Ancient genomes sequenced.
5. Documenting Continuity and change across Irish Human Prehistory
6. Access to large Dataset of ancient DNA in Europe
7. These can be partitioned into three distinct populations using descriptive statistics (PCA and Admixture)
8. Discussed Mesolithic MA, Neolithic NA, Chalcolitic CA, Bronze Age BA, Iron Age IA, Written History WH, Modern Populations MP
9. Mesolithic formed in three southern refugee, Iberia, Italy, Caucasus
10. Last Glacial Maximum radically altered the Human Genetic Landscape
11. Irish Mesolithic shows evidence of Extreme Ancestral Bottleneck
12. Dark skin, blue eyes
13. No evidence of recent inbreeding
14. Neolithic from Anatolia via Megalithic Atlantic movement, Impressed Ware, Cardinal Ware
15. Secondary route via Danube, Starveco Cris, LBK, VSG
16. Mass population turnover at outset of the Irish Neolithic
17. Mesolithic Hotspots In Argyl and Clare
18. Neolithic Introgression from Iberia and SE Neolithic
19. Irish Neolithic received most from Early Neolithic Iberians, Passage Tombs, Gallery Graves
20. Mainly Y I2a1b
21. Bronze Age from Steppes with massive population replacement
22. New technology, Copper, Bronze, Pottery and belief system BB Burial
23. Late Yamnaya, Steppes, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker
24. Maritime Bell Beaker from Iberia, Corded Ware (Eastern) meet in Fusion Zone
25. Beaker Phenomenon very different in Britain and Ireland
26. Britain more Steppe, Ireland less Steppe
27. West (Wedge Tombs), East (Bell Beaker Pottery) Cline in Ireland
28. Excess of Neolithic Ancestry in Irish Megalithic in BA
29. In Ireland there is a clear North East / South West Cline in the “Teal” CHG Steppe component
30. There is uneven distribution of Steppe Ancestry in British and Irish Copper/Bronze Age
31. Continuity in Irish Atlantic Genome since Bronze Age
32. Discussion on emergence of Proto Celtic Language
33. What about R1b
34. R1b-L21 (specifically DF13) is the major haplogroup of Irish CA BA IA. IA is overwhelmingly DF13.
35. Remaining CA BA is L21,P312, I
36. Remaining IA is P312
37. CABA Ireland mainly DF13
38. BA Iberia mainly P312 rest M269
39. BB Alpine completely P312
40. BB France half P312 rest L51, L11
41. BB Britain mainly L21
42. Byrne et al. Genes mirror Geography in Ireland
43. Genes mirror geography in modern Britain and Ireland, S.Munster, N.Munster, Leinster, Connacht, Ulster
44. BA > IA Ireland, Cremation Gap
45. How do our Irish Bronze Age and Iron Age populations relate to modern Irish populations
46. West to East, Irish IA,BA, Britain IA,AS
47. Discussion on haemochromatosis, lactose tolerance and pigmentation
48. Survival of ancient ancestries in geographic extremes, Atlantic West
49. Ireland defined by Atlantic and Northern European Plain
50. More detailed research to come on CA BA IA

https://m.facebook.com/groups/300082013464522

Eterne
11-03-2018, 07:46 PM
Heber, very interesting. A few questions if this is OK, and you can remember any more:
- "Mesolithic formed in three southern refugee, Iberia, Italy, Caucasus": Was this a comment on LGM refugia from ancient dna or archaeology?
- "Britain more Steppe, Ireland less Steppe" / "Excess of Neolithic Ancestry in Irish Megalithic in BA" / "In Ireland there is a clear North East / South West Cline in the “Teal” CHG Steppe component" / "There is uneven distribution of Steppe Ancestry in British and Irish Copper/Bronze Age" - any impression of how any substantial of these differences are?
- Any comment on from her thesis abstract - "Societal complexity during the Neolithic is suggested in patterns of Y chromosome and autosomal structure, while the identification of a highly inbred individual through ROH analysis, retrieved from an elite burial context, strongly suggests the elaboration and expansion of megalithic monuments over the course of the Neolithic was accompanied in some regions by dynastic hierarchies." Or "Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east. "?

Generalissimo
11-03-2018, 08:38 PM
Maritime Bell Beaker from Iberia, Corded Ware (Eastern) meet in Fusion Zone

So it seems like non-Iberian Beakers (ie. Eastern and Central steppe-admixed Beakers) were an R1b-rich subset of Corded Ware?

razyn
11-03-2018, 09:03 PM
That sounds kind of like an ancient Tupperware party. But anyway, I think it would be more reasonable to guess that the R1b guys coming into what we now call Central Europe (from the east) -- and along with other guys who probably weren't R1b, but have ultimately had less breeding success, the farther west they all went -- wooed or stole or bought mates, in significant proportion, from populations we now call Corded Ware. And we are currently calling the descendants of those incomers and the local chicks "non-Iberian Beakers."

Romilius
11-04-2018, 08:55 AM
That sounds kind of like an ancient Tupperware party. But anyway, I think it would be more reasonable to guess that the R1b guys coming into what we now call Central Europe (from the east) -- and along with other guys who probably weren't R1b, but have ultimately had less breeding success, the farther west they all went -- wooed or stole or bought mates, in significant proportion, from populations we now call Corded Ware. And we are currently calling the descendants of those incomers and the local chicks "non-Iberian Beakers."

The petty theory about Corded Ware wives in Bell Beaker is a thing that won't cease to astonish me. It's like an endemic disease: every year, it pops out of nowhere.

Corded Ware mtDNA and Bell Beaker mtDNA mainly differ... So, I can't even imagine Bell Beaker as a subset of Corded Ware.

Generalissimo
11-04-2018, 10:22 AM
Corded Ware mtDNA and Bell Beaker mtDNA mainly differ... So, I can't even imagine Bell Beaker as a subset of Corded Ware.

They mainly differ in terms of mtDNA picked up outside of the steppe. Otherwise they show all of the main steppe haplos, including some very rare ones from near the North Caucasus foothills. You can explore that using the AmtDB.

Big deal of 2018: Yamnaya not related to Maykop (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/11/big-deal-of-2018-yamnaya-not-related-to.html)

razyn
11-04-2018, 08:17 PM
The petty theory about Corded Ware wives in Bell Beaker is a thing that won't cease to astonish me.

That's almost like calling me petty. I almost care.

Anyway, I only think the ones who came through Corded Ware territory took wives from that archaeological cultural horizon (not that they were aware of the issue). The ones who got as far as Iberia clearly found their wives locally, though plausibly that happened a few generations later. Then they made lots of male babies, which leaves the false impression that DF27 was born in Iberia, among other such impressions.

mtDNA doesn't have to have anything to do with YDNA (the subject of this thread), in any given instance of mating. Over a long time, if neither males nor females move very far, the one may appear always to have accompanied the other. But in this field, "always" isn't a very reliable construct.

alan
11-04-2018, 10:24 PM
Here are my notes from GGI2018 including recap from CNIS lecture.

1. Lara discussed the initial findings of her research:
2. The main focus of this project was the sequencing of ancient human genomes from all periods of Ireland's prehistory to study the island's past demography. The first publication of this work (Cassidy et al. 2016) presented a new demographic scaffold for the island, proposing that at least three ancestrally distinct Irish populations have existed on the island, whose inhabitation corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras, with strong continuity observed from the Bronze Age onwards. Lara completed her PhD last year and is now continuing on with this same project as a postdoctoral researcher in the Bradley lab.
3. Excellent comprehensive presentation at GGI2018
4. An Ancient Irish Genomic Dataset: Over 100 Ancient genomes sequenced.
5. Documenting Continuity and change across Irish Human Prehistory
6. Access to large Dataset of ancient DNA in Europe
7. These can be partitioned into three distinct populations using descriptive statistics (PCA and Admixture)
8. Discussed Mesolithic MA, Neolithic NA, Chalcolitic CA, Bronze Age BA, Iron Age IA, Written History WH, Modern Populations MP
9. Mesolithic formed in three southern refugee, Iberia, Italy, Caucasus
10. Last Glacial Maximum radically altered the Human Genetic Landscape
11. Irish Mesolithic shows evidence of Extreme Ancestral Bottleneck
12. Dark skin, blue eyes
13. No evidence of recent inbreeding
14. Neolithic from Anatolia via Megalithic Atlantic movement, Impressed Ware, Cardinal Ware
15. Secondary route via Danube, Starveco Cris, LBK, VSG
16. Mass population turnover at outset of the Irish Neolithic
17. Mesolithic Hotspots In Argyl and Clare
18. Neolithic Introgression from Iberia and SE Neolithic
19. Irish Neolithic received most from Early Neolithic Iberians, Passage Tombs, Gallery Graves
20. Mainly Y I2a1b
21. Bronze Age from Steppes with massive population replacement
22. New technology, Copper, Bronze, Pottery and belief system BB Burial
23. Late Yamnaya, Steppes, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker
24. Maritime Bell Beaker from Iberia, Corded Ware (Eastern) meet in Fusion Zone
25. Beaker Phenomenon very different in Britain and Ireland
26. Britain more Steppe, Ireland less Steppe
27. West (Wedge Tombs), East (Bell Beaker Pottery) Cline in Ireland
28. Excess of Neolithic Ancestry in Irish Megalithic in BA
29. In Ireland there is a clear North East / South West Cline in the “Teal” CHG Steppe component
30. There is uneven distribution of Steppe Ancestry in British and Irish Copper/Bronze Age
31. Continuity in Irish Atlantic Genome since Bronze Age
32. Discussion on emergence of Proto Celtic Language
33. What about R1b
34. R1b-L21 (specifically DF13) is the major haplogroup of Irish CA BA IA. IA is overwhelmingly DF13.
35. Remaining CA BA is L21,P312, I
36. Remaining IA is P312
37. CABA Ireland mainly DF13
38. BA Iberia mainly P312 rest M269
39. BB Alpine completely P312
40. BB France half P312 rest L51, L11
41. BB Britain mainly L21
42. Byrne et al. Genes mirror Geography in Ireland
43. Genes mirror geography in modern Britain and Ireland, S.Munster, N.Munster, Leinster, Connacht, Ulster
44. BA > IA Ireland, Cremation Gap
45. How do our Irish Bronze Age and Iron Age populations relate to modern Irish populations
46. West to East, Irish IA,BA, Britain IA,AS
47. Discussion on haemochromatosis, lactose tolerance and pigmentation
48. Survival of ancient ancestries in geographic extremes, Atlantic West
49. Ireland defined by Atlantic and Northern European Plain
50. More detailed research to come on CA BA IA

[url]https://m.facebook.com/groups/300082013464522[/uringl]k
Interesting. Reading between the lines I’m guessing that what they are saying is the wedge tomb beaker burials c 2400-2000BC (mainly western) had lower steppe than the individual cist/pit burials 2200-1800BC (mainly eastern - including the rathlin island sample). But both were L21DF13? That suggests they were not of different origins but slightly different but overlapping phases and perhaps functons within the system. The wedge tomb builders always struck me as people who settled areas that were not the best farming zones and had at least one eye on prospecting. The single graves have a more normal distribution. I’m surprised by the conclusion that the Irish Neolithic farmers ate linked most to Iberia because the Irish EARLY Neolithic is clearly archaeology b closely linked to the Britain and the NW continent. This may be a wrong conclusion based solely on the proportion of WHG being high in both areas then jumping to making this causal. Alternatively the early Neolithic settlers may have been replaced in the mid neolithic by groups with a more Atlantic origin, perhaps linked to passage tombs etc. There is one contradiction in the summary. If Ireland has lower steppe in the copper/early Bronze Age then how can it also be said that there has been continuity today when Ireland actually is higher steppe than England today? Also I expect the whole ‘Black Irish’ nonsense is going to be linked to these blue eyed dark skinned hunters !

Eterne
11-04-2018, 10:48 PM
Alan, I don't think she is linking Ireland to the Iberian Neolithic to the exclusion of the Neolithic in Britain; rather identifying Ireland as a continuation of the same pattern as Britain, mainly Iberian Early Neolithic stream+contribution from NW European HG (e.g. like Loschbour) and probably same sources. I think the comment on Irish continuity despite the reversal of steppe level between Ireland and England implies a greater degree of further migration into Britain post-early Bronze Age, probably from France and Germany and a decrease in steppe ancestry there (which is what the data seems to show anyway as far as I can tell).

Romilius
11-05-2018, 09:34 AM
That's almost like calling me petty. I almost care.

Anyway, I only think the ones who came through Corded Ware territory took wives from that archaeological cultural horizon (not that they were aware of the issue). The ones who got as far as Iberia clearly found their wives locally, though plausibly that happened a few generations later. Then they made lots of male babies, which leaves the false impression that DF27 was born in Iberia, among other such impressions.

mtDNA doesn't have to have anything to do with YDNA (the subject of this thread), in any given instance of mating. Over a long time, if neither males nor females move very far, the one may appear always to have accompanied the other. But in this field, "always" isn't a very reliable construct.

Ok, sorry: I'm not a mothertongue, so, probably, I would have used the word minor... because it's a minor theory in the landscape of theories.

Heber
11-05-2018, 09:46 AM
Heber, very interesting. A few questions if this is OK, and you can remember any more:
- "Mesolithic formed in three southern refugee, Iberia, Italy, Caucasus": Was this a comment on LGM refugia from ancient dna or archaeology?
- "Britain more Steppe, Ireland less Steppe" / "Excess of Neolithic Ancestry in Irish Megalithic in BA" / "In Ireland there is a clear North East / South West Cline in the “Teal” CHG Steppe component" / "There is uneven distribution of Steppe Ancestry in British and Irish Copper/Bronze Age" - any impression of how any substantial of these differences are?
- Any comment on from her thesis abstract - "Societal complexity during the Neolithic is suggested in patterns of Y chromosome and autosomal structure, while the identification of a highly inbred individual through ROH analysis, retrieved from an elite burial context, strongly suggests the elaboration and expansion of megalithic monuments over the course of the Neolithic was accompanied in some regions by dynastic hierarchies." Or "Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east. "?

Mesolithic formed in three southern refugee, Iberia, Italy, Caucasus": Was this a comment on LGM refugia from ancient dna or archaeology?

LGM (30K-20K) YBP. .Refugee including Balkans.
MA (15K - 10K) BC Irish Mesolithic closer to Epigravettian than Magdalanian
Fu et al 2016, Mathieson et al 2018

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

- "Britain more Steppe, Ireland less Steppe" / "Excess of Neolithic Ancestry in Irish Megalithic in BA" / "In Ireland there is a clear North East / South West Cline in the “Teal” CHG Steppe component" / "There is uneven distribution of Steppe Ancestry in British and Irish Copper/Bronze Age" - any impression of how any substantial of these differences are?d onto traces

This is true for all ages, we find survival of older ancestries in the geographic extremes, up to the present day eg survival of An Ghaeltacht on the Atlantic Fringe.

Any comment on from her thesis abstract - "Societal complexity during the Neolithic is suggested in patterns of Y chromosome and autosomal structure, while the identification of a highly inbred individual through ROH analysis, retrieved from an elite burial context, strongly suggests the elaboration and expansion of megalithic monuments over the course of the Neolithic was accompanied in some regions by dynastic hierarchies." Or "Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east. "?

I cant remember a discussion on dynastic hierarchies although there was a clear difference between the Bell Beker Cist type burials and the Wedge Tomb, Megalithic burials which had more Nelolithic.

As we have genetic continuity since the Bronze Age it is worth reading Byrne et al
Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration

Previous studies of the genetic landscape of Ireland have suggested homogeneity, with population substructure undetectable using single-marker methods. Here we have harnessed the haplotype-based method fineSTRUCTURE in an Irish genome-wide SNP dataset, identifying 23 discrete genetic clusters which segregate with geographical provenance. Cluster diversity is pronounced in the west of Ireland but reduced in the east where older structure has been eroded by historical migrations. Accordingly, when populations from the neighbouring island of Britain are included, a west-east cline of Celtic-British ancestry is revealed along with a particularly striking correlation between haplotypes and geography across both islands. A strong relationship is revealed between subsets of Northern Irish and Scottish populations, where discordant genetic and geographic affinities reflect major migrations in recent centuries. Additionally, Irish genetic proximity of all Scottish samples likely reflects older strata of communication across the narrowest inter-island crossing. Using GLOBETROTTER we detected Irish admixture signals from Britain and Europe and estimated dates for events consistent with the historical migrations of the Norse-Vikings, the Anglo-Normans and the British Plantations. The influence of the former is greater than previously estimated from Y chromosome haplotypes. In all, we paint a new picture of the genetic landscape of Ireland, revealing structure which should be considered in the design of studies examining rare genetic variation and its association with traits.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

Heber
11-05-2018, 10:59 AM
John Koch had made the connection between the Atlantic Cist Burial Tradition and the spread of Indo European languages including Celtic.

https://www.academia.edu/22189046/Beakers_into_Bronze_Tracing_connections_between_Ib eria_and_the_British_Isles_2800-800_BC

He discusses it here ~58:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub5izFOdtDs

You might also enjoy this lecture by Colin Renfrew on the latest aDNA results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmv3J55bdZc

Romilius
11-05-2018, 11:30 AM
I cant remember a discussion on dynastic hierarchies although there was a clear difference between the Bell Beker Cist type burials and the Wedge Tomb, Megalithic burials which had more Nelolithic.

Interesting... but more Neolithic is only referred to autosomal, or also Y-DNA lineages of Neolithic origin survived in majority in the Wedge Tomb?

I understand this: Y-DNA uniformity, but different autosomal. But, Neolithic Y-DNA, as you stated, was mainly I2a (nothing about the minority? G2a? C2? R-V88? F?)... so I thought that on the westernmost fringes I2a lineages survived with their Neolithic autosomal.

Heber
11-05-2018, 01:15 PM
Interesting... but more Neolithic is only referred to autosomal, or also Y-DNA lineages of Neolithic origin survived in majority in the Wedge Tomb?

I understand this: Y-DNA uniformity, but different autosomal. But, Neolithic Y-DNA, as you stated, was mainly I2a (nothing about the minority? G2a? C2? R-V88? F?)... so I thought that on the westernmost fringes I2a lineages survived with their Neolithic autosomal.

No G2A, C2, R-V88, F that i recall. Only I and specificlly I2a1b1a1a1.
County Clare as previously mentioned was different with I2a1a1b.

ADW_1981
11-05-2018, 02:42 PM
k
Interesting. Reading between the lines I’m guessing that what they are saying is the wedge tomb beaker burials c 2400-2000BC (mainly western) had lower steppe than the individual cist/pit burials 2200-1800BC (mainly eastern - including the rathlin island sample). But both were L21DF13? That suggests they were not of different origins but slightly different but overlapping phases and perhaps functons within the system. The wedge tomb builders always struck me as people who settled areas that were not the best farming zones and had at least one eye on prospecting. The single graves have a more normal distribution. I’m surprised by the conclusion that the Irish Neolithic farmers ate linked most to Iberia because the Irish EARLY Neolithic is clearly archaeology b closely linked to the Britain and the NW continent. This may be a wrong conclusion based solely on the proportion of WHG being high in both areas then jumping to making this causal. Alternatively the early Neolithic settlers may have been replaced in the mid neolithic by groups with a more Atlantic origin, perhaps linked to passage tombs etc. There is one contradiction in the summary. If Ireland has lower steppe in the copper/early Bronze Age then how can it also be said that there has been continuity today when Ireland actually is higher steppe than England today? Also I expect the whole ‘Black Irish’ nonsense is going to be linked to these blue eyed dark skinned hunters !

Well you need to cross into Britain to get to Ireland, and you need to move from France to Britain first. I doubt anyone hopped directly from Iberia, but the path of Atlantic megalithism (Iberian farmers) was probably something like Iberia>France>Britain>Ireland, which seems completely logical to me. They probably still resembled the Iberians when they arrived in Ireland.

Although it's off topic, it wouldn't surprise me if the darker wavier hair on average in Ireland is from this era. Or maybe this was the physical characteristic of the Bell Beaker formation, and the later migration of Anglo-Saxons in England lightened the hair and made it finer. Certainly the more north in Europe you go, the hair tends to be lighter and finer. (I am prone to believe the earlier scenario, as I don't think the Celts and AS were all that different in appearance, the former most definitely had red and brown hair)

rms2
11-05-2018, 11:12 PM
I don't feel like looking things up right now, but as I recall, according to Olalde et al the Bell Beaker people brought lighter hair and eyes to Britain. Evidently the Neolithic farmers were darker.

alan
11-05-2018, 11:21 PM
Well you need to cross into Britain to get to Ireland, and you need to move from France to Britain first. I doubt anyone hopped directly from Iberia, but the path of Atlantic megalithism (Iberian farmers) was probably something like Iberia>France>Britain>Ireland, which seems completely logical to me. They probably still resembled the Iberians when they arrived in Ireland.

Although it's off topic, it wouldn't surprise me if the darker wavier hair on average in Ireland is from this era. Or maybe this was the physical characteristic of the Bell Beaker formation, and the later migration of Anglo-Saxons in England lightened the hair and made it finer. Certainly the more north in Europe you go, the hair tends to be lighter and finer. (I am prone to believe the earlier scenario, as I don't think the Celts and AS were all that different in appearance, the former most definitely had red and brown hair)
I’ve always thought that descriptions of blondness, fair skin, blue eyes and great height among the Celts was strictly relative to the Greeks and Romans of south and central Italy and the Mediterranean core of their empires. People interpreted this in modern times in a far too literal way and forgot this was a relative description which made people think the ancient Celts were being described as ultra Nordic. In realty they were probably describing people who looked very much like people in the northern half of France, walloon Belgium, the Celtic areas of the isles etc. These areas are not Scandinavian type but still a lot fairer of skin, eyes and hair than anywhere along the Med coasts where the ancient empires and classical writers were normally based.

Heber
11-27-2018, 01:51 PM
The Beaker Phenomenon?
Understanding the character and context of social practices in Ireland 2500-2000 BC

Neil Carlin | Forthcoming

ISBN: 9789088904639

Imprint: Sidestone Press Dissertations | Format: 210x280mm | 244 pp. | Language: English | 68 illus. (bw) | 45 illus. (fc) | Category: prehistory, archaeology, Beaker Phenomenon, Bell Beaker Culture, depositional treatment, Ireland, Chalcolithic, Early Bronze Age, social practices, identity, adaptation | download cover

Publication date: 29-11-2018

During the mid-third millennium BC, people across Europe started using an international suite of novel material culture including early metalwork and distinctive ceramics known as Beakers. The nature and social significance of this phenomenon, as well as the reasons for its rapid and widespread transmission have been much debated. The adoption of these new ideas and objects in Ireland, Europe’s westernmost island, provides a highly suitable case study in which to investigate these issues. While many Beaker-related stone and metal artefacts were previously known from Ireland, a decade of intensive developer-led excavations (1997-2007) resulted in an exponential increase in discoveries of Beaker pottery within apparent settlement contexts across the island. This scenario is radically different from Europe where these objects are found with Beakers in funerary settings, stereotypically with single burials.

Using an innovative approach, this book interlinks the study of the pottery and various object types (that have traditionally been studied in isolation) with their context of discovery and depositional treatment to characterise social practices within settlements, funerary monuments, ceremonial settings and natural places. These characterisations deliver rich new understandings of this period which reveal a much more nuanced narrative for this international phenomenon.

Significantly, this integrated regional study reveals that the various Beaker-related objects found in Ireland were all deposited during a series of highly structured and rule-bound activities which were strongly influenced by pre-existing Irish traditions. This is a departure from previous interpretations which incorrectly attributed the adoption of Beakers to large-scale immigration or a prestige goods economy. Instead, these new international ideas, objects and practices played an important role in enabling people in Ireland to perform and negotiate their personal and group identities by using this new suite of object to frame and maintain their social relations with other groups across Europe.

https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-beaker-phenomenon

jdean
11-27-2018, 05:08 PM
The Beaker Phenomenon?
Understanding the character and context of social practices in Ireland 2500-2000 BC

Neil Carlin | Forthcoming

ISBN: 9789088904639

Imprint: Sidestone Press Dissertations | Format: 210x280mm | 244 pp. | Language: English | 68 illus. (bw) | 45 illus. (fc) | Category: prehistory, archaeology, Beaker Phenomenon, Bell Beaker Culture, depositional treatment, Ireland, Chalcolithic, Early Bronze Age, social practices, identity, adaptation | download cover

Publication date: 29-11-2018

During the mid-third millennium BC, people across Europe started using an international suite of novel material culture including early metalwork and distinctive ceramics known as Beakers. The nature and social significance of this phenomenon, as well as the reasons for its rapid and widespread transmission have been much debated. The adoption of these new ideas and objects in Ireland, Europe’s westernmost island, provides a highly suitable case study in which to investigate these issues. While many Beaker-related stone and metal artefacts were previously known from Ireland, a decade of intensive developer-led excavations (1997-2007) resulted in an exponential increase in discoveries of Beaker pottery within apparent settlement contexts across the island. This scenario is radically different from Europe where these objects are found with Beakers in funerary settings, stereotypically with single burials.

Using an innovative approach, this book interlinks the study of the pottery and various object types (that have traditionally been studied in isolation) with their context of discovery and depositional treatment to characterise social practices within settlements, funerary monuments, ceremonial settings and natural places. These characterisations deliver rich new understandings of this period which reveal a much more nuanced narrative for this international phenomenon.

Significantly, this integrated regional study reveals that the various Beaker-related objects found in Ireland were all deposited during a series of highly structured and rule-bound activities which were strongly influenced by pre-existing Irish traditions. This is a departure from previous interpretations which incorrectly attributed the adoption of Beakers to large-scale immigration or a prestige goods economy. Instead, these new international ideas, objects and practices played an important role in enabling people in Ireland to perform and negotiate their personal and group identities by using this new suite of object to frame and maintain their social relations with other groups across Europe.

https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-beaker-phenomenon

Doesn’t sound like Neil’s a big fan of DNA testing : )

Dubhthach
11-27-2018, 05:27 PM
The ebook will be free or so it seems from what I see on Twitter

Heber
12-27-2018, 08:54 AM
Rites of Passage: Mortuary Practice, Population Dynamics, and Chronology at the Carrowkeel Passage Tomb Complex, Co. Sligo, Ireland

Thomas Kador (a1), Lara M. Cassidy (a2), Jonny Geber (a3), Robert Hensey (a4) ...

https://doi.org/10.1017/ppr.2018.16Published online: 06 December 2018

Abstract
The first detailed investigation of the human remains from the Carrowkeel passage tomb complex since their excavation in 1911 has revealed several new and important insights about life, death, and mortuary practice in Neolithic Ireland. Osteological analysis provides the first conclusive proof for the occurrence of dismemberment of the dead at Irish passage tombs, practised contemporarily with cremation as one of a suite of funerary treatments. The research also highlights changes in burial tradition at the complex over the course of the Neolithic. Providing a chronology for these changes allows them to be linked to wider trends in monument construction, which may relate to changes in both land use and climate during the period. Multi-isotope analysis hints at the presence of non-local individuals among the interred and the possible existence of different food sourcing areas at the onset of the later Neolithic period. Preliminary results from ancient DNA sequencing of six individuals from Carrowkeel provide evidence for the genetic ancestry of Irish Neolithic populations, demonstrating their Anatolian origins and links along the Atlantic façade.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/rites-of-passage-mortuary-practice-population-dynamics-and-chronology-at-the-carrowkeel-passage-tomb-complex-co-sligo-ireland/CE8E9D1CC402CCF625E172501E8E8C65#

Romilius
12-27-2018, 10:57 AM
Rites of Passage: Mortuary Practice, Population Dynamics, and Chronology at the Carrowkeel Passage Tomb Complex, Co. Sligo, Ireland

Thomas Kador (a1), Lara M. Cassidy (a2), Jonny Geber (a3), Robert Hensey (a4) ...

https://doi.org/10.1017/ppr.2018.16Published online: 06 December 2018

Abstract
The first detailed investigation of the human remains from the Carrowkeel passage tomb complex since their excavation in 1911 has revealed several new and important insights about life, death, and mortuary practice in Neolithic Ireland. Osteological analysis provides the first conclusive proof for the occurrence of dismemberment of the dead at Irish passage tombs, practised contemporarily with cremation as one of a suite of funerary treatments. The research also highlights changes in burial tradition at the complex over the course of the Neolithic. Providing a chronology for these changes allows them to be linked to wider trends in monument construction, which may relate to changes in both land use and climate during the period. Multi-isotope analysis hints at the presence of non-local individuals among the interred and the possible existence of different food sourcing areas at the onset of the later Neolithic period. Preliminary results from ancient DNA sequencing of six individuals from Carrowkeel provide evidence for the genetic ancestry of Irish Neolithic populations, demonstrating their Anatolian origins and links along the Atlantic façade.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/rites-of-passage-mortuary-practice-population-dynamics-and-chronology-at-the-carrowkeel-passage-tomb-complex-co-sligo-ireland/CE8E9D1CC402CCF625E172501E8E8C65#

It seems very interesting... but it is behind paywall... bad chance...

Dubhthach
12-27-2018, 05:36 PM
It seems very interesting... but it is behind paywall... bad chance...

It's available on sci-hub:
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/ppr.2018.16

jdean
12-27-2018, 07:54 PM
It's available on sci-hub:
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/ppr.2018.16

Bad boy : )

Dubhthach
12-27-2018, 08:00 PM
Bad boy : )

taxpayer funded research shouldn't be behind paywalls ;)


Ancient DNA analysis carried
out by Lara M. Cassidy was funded by the Irish Research
Council Government of Ireland Scholarship Scheme (GOIPG/2013/1219).

rms2
12-27-2018, 08:00 PM
Bad boy : )

I’ll have to wait until I get home to read it. My phone won’t let me open it. Anything exciting there?

ADW_1981
12-27-2018, 08:01 PM
I’ll have to wait until I get home to read it. My phone won’t let me open it. Anything exciting there?

No YDNA results that I can see, but I could have missed it. Predominantly brown eyed and brown/black haired with derived mutations for both common light skin variations. So nothing much new.

Dubhthach
12-27-2018, 08:06 PM
No YDNA results that I can see, but I could have missed it.

Well they did mention that the sequencing found the 6 broke down as 4 males and 2 females. They mention mtDNA haplogroups as well as number of other relevant bits such as genes related to melanoma risk, and that the samples are most akin to modern Sardinians. Key bit of course is that this is only the initial preliminary analysis:


With full population genetic analysis still ongoing, the
results discussed here are preliminary

jdean
12-27-2018, 08:09 PM
I’ll have to wait until I get home to read it. My phone won’t let me open it. Anything exciting there?

As ADW_1981 has said no Y-DNA, to tired to read it properly though and I've a very long day ahead of me tomorrow.


taxpayer funded research shouldn't be behind paywalls ;)

quite agree : )

Webb
12-27-2018, 08:12 PM
Well they did mention that the sequencing found the 6 broke down as 4 males and 2 females. They mention mtDNA haplogroups as well as number of other relevant bits such as genes related to melanoma risk, and that the samples are most akin to modern Sardinians. Key bit of course is that this is only the initial preliminary analysis:

Was there anything interesting with the isotope analysis?

alan
12-27-2018, 08:47 PM
I can’t open either link

alan
12-27-2018, 08:57 PM
Was there anything interesting with the isotope analysis?

The radiocarbon dates could be interesting. There had been a lot of wild theorising but little concrete evidence of an especially early Neolithic settlement in Sligo and a v early passage tomb tradition.

Moderator
12-27-2018, 11:00 PM
MOD

One post linking to a pirating site removed. Posting such material publicly compromises this site.

Please refer to section 4 of our Terms of Service (4. Intellectual Property and Copyright Infringement).

Thanks for your cooperation,

alan
12-28-2018, 10:50 AM
One thing archaeology has not picked up that ancient DNA had is the reemergence of Hunter DNA after the first flushes of the Neolithic farmers. This appears to be Europe wide. The interesting thing is the lack of archaeological evidence for a long overlap between farmers and hunters in Ireland. Up to now it almost looked like the local Irish hunters disappeared as soon as the farmers arrived. It kind of suggests they borrowed the garners material culture but lived apart from them for a long time before they finally blended

Romilius
03-24-2019, 06:40 AM
There was some rumour being spread on FB about R1b being found in a megalithic tomb in Ireland. Not sure the validity here. If the megalithic groups form male kinships, I would have expected it to pop up before, especially in Spain.

Was that rumour confirmed, or it was only a way to spread untrue news?

On molgen a user, Darthraighe, was pretty excited about that new, underlining also the fact that, according to her, the Megalithic societal hyerarchies were tied to the Gaelic dynasties, as per abstract. I re-read the abstract, but it doesn't say anything about Gaelic dynasties... but it only deals about a kind of Neolithic period dynasties linked to the spread of megaliths.

Seems like until may 2020 we can't know anything...

rms2
03-25-2019, 10:02 PM
After all this time, and all the ancient skeletons tested, especially in Iberia, does that old rumor make any sense?

R.Rocca
03-26-2019, 12:10 AM
After all this time, and all the ancient skeletons tested, especially in Iberia, does that old rumor make any sense?

Sure it makes sense... R1b-V88.

rms2
03-27-2019, 12:08 AM
Sure it makes sense... R1b-V88.

Of course, I meant R1b-M269, and I think that's what Romilius was talking about, as well.

V88 there would be no big deal.

glentane
04-03-2019, 04:21 PM
No YDNA results that I can see, but I could have missed it. Predominantly brown eyed and brown/black haired with derived mutations for both common light skin variations. So nothing much new.
So the men all looked like George Best, George Clooney, Mel Gibson and Roy Keane, and the women like Sinead O'Connor and the Corrs? OK, I can live with that.

Heber
06-14-2019, 09:23 AM
This is a presentation I gave this week which outlines the evolution of Genetic Genealogy in Ireland but also deals with Indo European, Steppe, Bell Beaker and Celtic Migrations.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=P327fMOt0lo

Heber
06-14-2019, 12:53 PM
Posted in Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News

jaumemiquel
06-14-2019, 03:26 PM
Posted in Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News

Hi There,

I'm R1B/M269/P312/DF27/Z195/DF17 CTS7768 from Spain. I understand that DF17 is a branch of Z195 with origins in Catalonia area in NE Spain although not yet proven. Since there have been other Z195/DF17 found all over Europe but with focal dispersion from Spain northward. could this imply that perhaps the celtic and preceltic migrations were actually northward and not the other way around? in other words, could the pre celtic waves have come from Tartessos/atlantic fringe in lieu of central europe? please note that there have been beaker vases in balearic islands older than the central europe ones...thanks

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2019, 10:57 PM
This is a presentation I gave this week which outlines the evolution of Genetic Genealogy in Ireland but also deals with Indo European, Steppe, Bell Beaker and Celtic Migrations.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=P327fMOt0lo

I'm flattered that you included some of my maps of England in your presentation ~5:30 mark.

Heber
06-15-2019, 08:38 AM
Hi There,

I'm R1B/M269/P312/DF27/Z195/DF17 CTS7768 from Spain. I understand that DF17 is a branch of Z195 with origins in Catalonia area in NE Spain although not yet proven. Since there have been other Z195/DF17 found all over Europe but with focal dispersion from Spain northward. could this imply that perhaps the celtic and preceltic migrations were actually northward and not the other way around? in other words, could the pre celtic waves have come from Tartessos/atlantic fringe in lieu of central europe? please note that there have been beaker vases in balearic islands older than the central europe ones...thanks

You can read about John Koch theory on Celtic from the West, Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages, Phoeniciens in the West, Exploring Celtic Origins here:

https://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/19895000/Celtic_from_the_West

https://www.academia.edu/38388603/Celtic_from_the_West_3._Atlantic_Europe_in_the_Met al_Ages_questions_of_shared_language

https://www.academia.edu/14176791/Phoenicians_in_the_West_and_the_Break-up_of_the_Atlantic_Bronze_Age_and_Proto-Celtic

https://www.academia.edu/38404442/Exploring_Celtic_Origins_New_ways_forward_in_archa eology_linguistics_and_genetics

Heber
10-30-2019, 12:55 AM
Public lecture on the Ranelagh Osteoarchaeology Project: the 'forgotten graveyard'

http://www.tii.ie/news/archaeology/ranelagh-osteoarchaeology/

A large, previously unrecorded, archaeological site was discovered hidden beneath the grass in Ranelagh townland (Roscommon) during archaeological investigations carried out before the construction of the N61 Coolteige Road Project. Over 54 weeks of excavation of the site was undertaken by Excavation Director Shane Delaney and his team from Irish Archaeological Consultancy Ltd, on behalf of Roscommon County Council and TII.

They discovered that the site was in use for over 500 years, initially as a large settlement and farm enclosed by a protective bank and ditch. The artefacts discovered were typical of those from the sixth–11th century AD. They include personal items such as combs made of antler, dress accessories and jewellery, and iron knives, but also special artefacts for fine dining. Post-excavation specialist analyses are ongoing. (Peak occupation 750 AD).

The most extraordinary discovery was, however, that the settlement had developed into a cemetery with over 1,000 human burials—long since forgotten. The subject of Professor Murphy’s talk is the scientific study of those human skeletal remains, which are being analysed under the ‘Ranelagh Osteoarchaeology Project’ based in QUB. Post-excavation analysis has focused on a detailed osteoarchaeological examination of all human skeletal remains alongside a comprehensive programme of radiocarbon dating that will facilitate a thorough understanding of the development and lifespan of the burial ground.

A targeted programme of ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis is determining the genetic composition of particular individuals and investigating issues of familial relatedness, disease, and the potential presence of non-local people in the cemetery. The aDNA work is being carried out in collaboration with Professor Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin. Further collaboration involves stable isotope research undertaken by Dr Julia Beaumont of the University of Bradford. This research is exploring issues related to diet and migration, as well as maternal and infant health.

The involvement of the University sector in the project has the added benefit of enabling smaller spin-off research projects to be developed and a number of students are also undertaking dissertations on aspects of the remains, including aDNA analysis of soil samples, palaeopathology, and funerary practices. Professor Murphy is keen that the people of Roscommon get a chance to learn about this important research: ‘‘We are delighted to have been given the opportunity to study the remains of the people buried at Ranelagh, which are providing a huge amount of information about daily lives, beliefs and community and family relationships in medieval Ireland.”

150 samples from this and other Irish sites were part of Lara’s excellent recent lecture at GGI2019.
The first of two papers should be published early next year.
The first paper will deal with Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age.
The second paper will deal with Late Bronze Age, Iron Age, Historic period including these Medieval samples.

Jessie
10-30-2019, 07:24 AM
Public lecture on the Ranelagh Osteoarchaeology Project: the 'forgotten graveyard'

http://www.tii.ie/news/archaeology/ranelagh-osteoarchaeology/

A large, previously unrecorded, archaeological site was discovered hidden beneath the grass in Ranelagh townland (Roscommon) during archaeological investigations carried out before the construction of the N61 Coolteige Road Project. Over 54 weeks of excavation of the site was undertaken by Excavation Director Shane Delaney and his team from Irish Archaeological Consultancy Ltd, on behalf of Roscommon County Council and TII.

They discovered that the site was in use for over 500 years, initially as a large settlement and farm enclosed by a protective bank and ditch. The artefacts discovered were typical of those from the sixth–11th century AD. They include personal items such as combs made of antler, dress accessories and jewellery, and iron knives, but also special artefacts for fine dining. Post-excavation specialist analyses are ongoing. (Peak occupation 750 AD).

The most extraordinary discovery was, however, that the settlement had developed into a cemetery with over 1,000 human burials—long since forgotten. The subject of Professor Murphy’s talk is the scientific study of those human skeletal remains, which are being analysed under the ‘Ranelagh Osteoarchaeology Project’ based in QUB. Post-excavation analysis has focused on a detailed osteoarchaeological examination of all human skeletal remains alongside a comprehensive programme of radiocarbon dating that will facilitate a thorough understanding of the development and lifespan of the burial ground.

A targeted programme of ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis is determining the genetic composition of particular individuals and investigating issues of familial relatedness, disease, and the potential presence of non-local people in the cemetery. The aDNA work is being carried out in collaboration with Professor Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin. Further collaboration involves stable isotope research undertaken by Dr Julia Beaumont of the University of Bradford. This research is exploring issues related to diet and migration, as well as maternal and infant health.

The involvement of the University sector in the project has the added benefit of enabling smaller spin-off research projects to be developed and a number of students are also undertaking dissertations on aspects of the remains, including aDNA analysis of soil samples, palaeopathology, and funerary practices. Professor Murphy is keen that the people of Roscommon get a chance to learn about this important research: ‘‘We are delighted to have been given the opportunity to study the remains of the people buried at Ranelagh, which are providing a huge amount of information about daily lives, beliefs and community and family relationships in medieval Ireland.”

150 samples from this and other Irish sites were part of Lara’s excellent recent lecture at GGI2019.
The first of two papers should be published early next year.
The first paper will deal with Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age.
The second paper will deal with Late Bronze Age, Iron Age, Historic period including these Medieval samples.

There is apparently a lot of M222 at this site including S588 which is of particular interest to me as my father was from Roscommon. I'm really looking forward to Lara's papers.

Heber
09-03-2020, 12:04 PM
I am posting an update on DNA Caillte here as Cassidy and Bradley figure prominently in the series.

DNA Caillte' (The Lost DNA), new Science and History Docudrama series on TG4
Cutting-edge DNA research is transforming our knowledge of who we are, where we come from and how we got here. This new documentary series produced by Tile Films for TG4, featuring Martin Jones from Transport Infrastructure Ireland, reveals fascinating and shocking truths about the ancient and medieval inhabitants of Europe and how extreme weather influenced the most critical battle in Irish history.

Watch Teaser here: DNA Caillte - youtube teaser

Clad in animal pelts, a hunter stalks his prey in a dense forest. He pauses, and we notice that he is dark-skinned. Then we see his eyes: they are a bright piercing blue. This is Ireland, 7000 BC. A crack team of geneticists based at Trinity College Dublin is now revealing the truth about ancient Europeans, from the hunter-gatherers who stalked and foraged in the wild, to the first farmers, who migrated from the Middle East. Now, a shocking discovery at the ancient
passage tomb of Newgrange gives an astonishing insight into the culture and beliefs of Europeans some 5,000 years ago.

In this dynamic new science / history series, presenter Manchán Magan explores the fascinating scientific evidence that is giving a new perspective on our past. Brought to you over three weeks, beginning Wednesday September 2nd at 9:30pm, Manchán travels around the country to visit archaeological sites, chats to historians and archaeologists, and ventures inside laboratories to watch scientists’ piece together the past using ancient bones and skulls. In Episode One he investigates the extraordinary new DNA evidence that reveals a dark secret in the heart of ancient Newgrange. In Episode Two he discovers how DNA and other scientific evidence suggests that people practiced paganism for centuries after the coming of Christianity. And in Episode Three he explores extraordinary climate science to reveal how a volcanic eruption affected one of the most critical battles in Irish history, the Battle of Kinsale.

Contributors include scientists Lara Cassidy and Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin; archaeologists Chris Read (IT Sligo), Martin Jones (Transport Infrastructure Ireland) and Eileen Murphy (Queen’s University Belfast); and historians James O'Neill and Francis Ludlow (Trinity College Dublin). ‘DNA Caillte’ is produced by Tile Films Limited for TG4 with the support of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland’s Sound and Vision funding scheme and Section 481, Ireland’s Film Corporation Tax Credit. International distribution is by Off the Fence. Tile Films’ Manging Director Stephen Rooke is executive producer for Tile Films Limited. Máire Ní Chonláin is executive producer for TG4.

Episode Summaries

Episode One – Bunús (Origins) 2.9.20 @ 9:30pm
This episode explores how DNA research is revealing the truth about Ireland's early inhabitants. Some 10,000 years ago dark-skinned, blue-eyed people roamed our forests. Thousands of years later, they were replaced by a new wave of settlers that introduced a dynamic new technology – farming. Now, Dr Lara Cassidy of Trinity College Dublin has uncovered an astonishing secret about a man who was buried at the centre of Newgrange, our most sacred ancient monument. Her discovery gives an astonishing insight into the culture and beliefs of the people of Ireland around 3000 BC.

Episode Two – Rúin na hUaighe (Secrets of the Grave) 9.9.20 @ 9:30pm
Episode Two takes us to a critical time in Irish history - the move from paganism to Christianity. Medieval records don’t give much information on the lives of ordinary people, but now DNA and other scientific techniques like osteo-archaeology are opening fascinating windows into the past. Evidence from burial sites in Ireland show that ancient pre-Christian beliefs continued long into the Christian era. And now, a shocking discovery in County Roscommon suggests that some feared the rise of undead creatures.

Episode Three – In Aimsir Chogaidh (In Time of War) 16.9.20 @ 9:30pm
In 1601, the Gaelic lords of Ulster faced the English in the Battle of Kinsale. Its outcome would decide the fate of Ireland for centuries to come - and it was fought in near Arctic conditions. Now, scientists have discovered the cause of this extreme weather – a massive volcanic eruption on the other side of the world. Information locked in tree rings and the ice core of Greenland is a sort of "Lost DNA" that allows us to map the weather in times past. It could explain how the most important battle in Irish history was won and lost.

A copy of the series is available on request.

https://www.tg4.ie/en/player/home/?pid=6186667760001&series=DNA%20Caillte&genre=Faisneis

J1 DYS388=13
09-03-2020, 02:26 PM
I am posting an update on DNA Caillte here as Cassidy and Bradley figure prominently in the series.

DNA Caillte' (The Lost DNA), new Science and History Docudrama series on TG4
Cutting-edge DNA research is transforming our knowledge of who we are, where we come from and how we got here. This new documentary series produced by Tile Films for TG4, featuring Martin Jones from Transport Infrastructure Ireland, reveals fascinating and shocking truths about the ancient and medieval inhabitants of Europe and how extreme weather influenced the most critical battle in Irish history.

Watch Teaser here: DNA Caillte - youtube teaser

Clad in animal pelts, a hunter stalks his prey in a dense forest. He pauses, and we notice that he is dark-skinned. Then we see his eyes: they are a bright piercing blue. This is Ireland, 7000 BC. A crack team of geneticists based at Trinity College Dublin is now revealing the truth about ancient Europeans, from the hunter-gatherers who stalked and foraged in the wild, to the first farmers, who migrated from the Middle East. Now, a shocking discovery at the ancient
passage tomb of Newgrange gives an astonishing insight into the culture and beliefs of Europeans some 5,000 years ago.

In this dynamic new science / history series, presenter Manchán Magan explores the fascinating scientific evidence that is giving a new perspective on our past. Brought to you over three weeks, beginning Wednesday September 2nd at 9:30pm, Manchán travels around the country to visit archaeological sites, chats to historians and archaeologists, and ventures inside laboratories to watch scientists’ piece together the past using ancient bones and skulls. In Episode One he investigates the extraordinary new DNA evidence that reveals a dark secret in the heart of ancient Newgrange. In Episode Two he discovers how DNA and other scientific evidence suggests that people practiced paganism for centuries after the coming of Christianity. And in Episode Three he explores extraordinary climate science to reveal how a volcanic eruption affected one of the most critical battles in Irish history, the Battle of Kinsale.

Contributors include scientists Lara Cassidy and Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin; archaeologists Chris Read (IT Sligo), Martin Jones (Transport Infrastructure Ireland) and Eileen Murphy (Queen’s University Belfast); and historians James O'Neill and Francis Ludlow (Trinity College Dublin). ‘DNA Caillte’ is produced by Tile Films Limited for TG4 with the support of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland’s Sound and Vision funding scheme and Section 481, Ireland’s Film Corporation Tax Credit. International distribution is by Off the Fence. Tile Films’ Manging Director Stephen Rooke is executive producer for Tile Films Limited. Máire Ní Chonláin is executive producer for TG4.

Episode Summaries

Episode One – Bunús (Origins) 2.9.20 @ 9:30pm
This episode explores how DNA research is revealing the truth about Ireland's early inhabitants. Some 10,000 years ago dark-skinned, blue-eyed people roamed our forests. Thousands of years later, they were replaced by a new wave of settlers that introduced a dynamic new technology – farming. Now, Dr Lara Cassidy of Trinity College Dublin has uncovered an astonishing secret about a man who was buried at the centre of Newgrange, our most sacred ancient monument. Her discovery gives an astonishing insight into the culture and beliefs of the people of Ireland around 3000 BC.

Episode Two – Rúin na hUaighe (Secrets of the Grave) 9.9.20 @ 9:30pm
Episode Two takes us to a critical time in Irish history - the move from paganism to Christianity. Medieval records don’t give much information on the lives of ordinary people, but now DNA and other scientific techniques like osteo-archaeology are opening fascinating windows into the past. Evidence from burial sites in Ireland show that ancient pre-Christian beliefs continued long into the Christian era. And now, a shocking discovery in County Roscommon suggests that some feared the rise of undead creatures.

Episode Three – In Aimsir Chogaidh (In Time of War) 16.9.20 @ 9:30pm
In 1601, the Gaelic lords of Ulster faced the English in the Battle of Kinsale. Its outcome would decide the fate of Ireland for centuries to come - and it was fought in near Arctic conditions. Now, scientists have discovered the cause of this extreme weather – a massive volcanic eruption on the other side of the world. Information locked in tree rings and the ice core of Greenland is a sort of "Lost DNA" that allows us to map the weather in times past. It could explain how the most important battle in Irish history was won and lost.

A copy of the series is available on request.

https://www.tg4.ie/en/player/home/?pid=6186667760001&series=DNA%20Caillte&genre=Faisneis

For Gaelic speakers only.

JMcB
09-03-2020, 04:11 PM
For Gaelic speakers only.

I watched the first episode last night and there’s a little tab on the bottom right that activates English subtitles.

razyn
09-03-2020, 08:27 PM
I noticed that the word on the tab displays what you are watching, not what the tab takes you to. So if it says English, and that's what you want to see (in subtitles), don't click it. When the narration on screen is already in English (e.g. when Lara Cassidy is speaking, on camera) there are no subtitles.

Also, you may have to click the CC symbol (mine was at lower right) to make them appear. If you have gone to full-screen mode you won't necessarily see those symbols.

Heber
09-04-2020, 03:10 PM
For Gaelic speakers only.

You can switch on the sub titles at the bottom of the screen.

Heber
09-09-2020, 08:36 AM
Episode 2 (this evening) – Rúin Na hÚaighe (Secrets of The Grave)

Filmed on location in: Ireland

Episode Two takes us to a critical time in Irish history – the move from paganism to Christianity. Medieval records don’t give much information on the lives of ordinary people, but now DNA and other scientific techniques like osteo-archaeology are opening fascinating windows into the past. Evidence from burial sites in Ireland show that ancient pre-Christian beliefs continued long into the Christian era. And now, a shocking discovery in County Roscommon suggests that some feared the rise of undead creatures.

The TG4 player is marked Worldwide so our overseas viewers should be able to watch.

https://www.tg4.ie/en/player/categories/top-documentaries/?series=DNA%20Caillte&genre=Faisneis

This is the site where most of the samples from Genomic Compendium of an Island were found.

Heber
09-10-2020, 07:43 AM
I reached out to the TII Archaeologist Martin Hall regarding publication of results and he said: “To answer your question on other dissemination, individual academic papers will be appearing on the general excavations and also on the various specialist areas of the post-excavation work, but a synthesis of all of the excavation and post-excavation analysis information will come as an entry to the TII Monograph Series

http://www.tii.ie/technical-services/archaeology/publications/archaeologymonographseries/

I have a meeting shortly with the excavation team to agree the format for this and to discuss a programme for delivery but I would hope to see the book(s) in print by early 2022.”
We know that Lara Cassidy PhD thesis which includes the Ranalagh samples,
“A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory”,
is under embargo until next year.

http://www.tara.tcd.ie/handle/2262/82960

Here is the recorded version which may be easier to access than the live broadcast.

https://www.tg4.ie/en/player/home/?pid=6188545141001&title=R%C3%BAin%20na%20hUaighe&series=DNA%20Caillte&pcode=095982&genre=Faisneis