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View Full Version : Historical Ancient Punjab - Its Extent and People ( Open Discussion)



Saad2016
09-18-2018, 12:12 AM
History:

The region was originally called Sapta Sindhu,the Vedic land of the seven rivers flowing into the ocean.The Sanskrit name for the region, as mentioned in the Ramayana and Mahabharata for example, was Panchanada which means "Land of the Five Rivers", and was translated to Persian as Punjab after the Muslim conquests.The later name of the region, Punjab, is a compound of two Persian words,Panj (five) and āb (water), introduced to the region by the Turko-Persian conquerors of India, and more formally popularised during the Mughal Empire.Punjab thus means "The Land of Five Waters", referring to the rivers Jhelum, Chenab, Ravi, Sutlej, and Beas. All are tributaries of the Indus River, the Chenab being the largest.

Political geography :

There are two main definitions of the Punjab region: the 1947 definition and the older 18461849 definition. A third definition incorporates both the 1947 and the older definitions but also includes northern Rajasthan on a linguistic basis and ancient river movements

Map of Punjab during the time of British Era ( early 1900's)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Punjab-religion-2.jpg



Discussion :

What were the western boundaries of Punjab before the Turkomen and Afghan Invasions? I will contribute too but would also like your opinion.

Saad2016
09-18-2018, 12:27 AM
Based on the map above if we want to divide Punjabi in to central, western (Pahari) , eastern and Southern Seraiki Punjab then this would be the map :

https://i.gyazo.com/64c19eaf8d5acfe0904e1f461446a914.png


Central Punjab = Area between River Jhelum and Sutlej River ( Part of Pakistani Punjab) - red circle in the map
East Punjab = Area East of Sutlej ( Indian Punjab)- Black circle
Western Punjab ( also called Pahari Punjab by the forum users) Green circle
Southern Seraiki Punjab ( Multan and adjacent districts) Blue Circle

Saad2016
09-18-2018, 01:04 AM
Till the discussion builds on - An entertainment break....a Song on Partition of Punjab based theme when millions of punjabies got displaced and crossed the border due to 1947 partition riots.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRnmFscv8bs

Rahuls77
09-18-2018, 09:40 PM
Speaking of Punjab, I recall a poem central to the idea of Punjab, which is the Takht Lahore(an idea conceived by Baba Bulla Shah, who referred to it as the Takht for his Murshid, Inayat Shah Qadri, was a Lahori).
Ucche burj Lahore de
te heth vagay darya(Raavi)
Aithe Raniyan baehndiyan baariyan,
Ranglay paehn kabaah
Aithay katak faseelay fauj de
utray lakh sawa
dooron harqat vekhde
neray vi na ja...

Over time, several variants of this poem have been composed.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 12:42 AM
starting the discussion again. Peshawar now the capital of Khyber pakhtun khawa (KPK) province was once a city inhabited by Punjabies who were pushed east wards by the advancing "Dilazak" tribe of Afghans, from Karlanri division, who migrated from Eastern Afghanistan and settled in the plain of Peshawar by crossing Khyber pass. Even today a majority of Peshawar city speak a language called Hindko - which is a dialect of Punjabi. The modern day capital city of Peshawar was originally known in ancient times as Purushapura when the region was Hindu. Vedic texts refer to the area as the Janapada of Pushkalavati. The area was once known to be a great center of learning.

Major H.G.Raverty, an English historian, is of opinion that Awans of Punjab, along with Ghakkars and some other tribes, are most probably ancient inhabitants of Eastern Afghanistan which were dispossessed of their territories by Afghan tribes and were gradually displaced eastward towards modern day KPK and West Punjab.

In Khyber pakhtunkhwa, the people of Awan origin are called Hindko......the term was coined by Pashtun tribes for the original inhabitants of the region. Some of the tribes from Hindku race are now accepted as Pashtuns. The Jajis of Afghanistan and Turis of Kurram agency, are of Awan origin who used to live near Nilab on the bank of Indus on Punjab side. They used to temporarily migrate to Upper Bangash valley and were attached with Bangash tribe as Hamsaya. In 1702 they defeated Bangashs and came into possession of parachinar area and adjoining area. Another tribe of Hindko race, are Swatis of Batagram and Mansehra (not to be confused with Yousazfais) who are accepted as Pashtuns. They were ancient inhabitants of Swat before arrival of Yousafzais and also recorded in Paktun historical accounts.

The truth of this can be verified by the existance of mandirs/stupas in Swat and adjacent areas. The ancient ruins of Taxilla and Gandhara also point to a Punjabi Buddhist history.

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 12:52 AM
Pre-Pashtun Swatis such as the Tanolis?

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 12:54 AM
I know that most of you would be surprised by the above claims about the western most enthnic boundaries of Punjab but here is an excerpt from the Govt of KPK website :


The Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is populated by a large variety of tribes, sub-tribes and clans, each with its own network of ties but unified by the collective of being called Pathan or Pashtuns, imbued with the characteristic force of character, bravery and shrewdness. Over the years, however, the larger towns have become a mix of various other peoples from Afghanistan, Kashmir and the rest of Pakistan, just as many Pathans have migrated to, or work in, the larger towns of Punjab, Sindh and Baluchistan.

The Pathan way of life still maintains the age-old, time-tested code of behavior known as PukhtunWali. Honor, revenge and hospitality are the cardinal principles while the Jirga, or tribal assembly, plays a potent part in the resolution of issues according to Riwaj or tradition.The practices of"Nikkat", "Lungj" and "Moajjab" are still strong, binding and regulatory.

The population contains several ethnological sections, representing the deposits formed by different streams of immigration or invasion. Most numerous and important are the Pathans (Pukhtana), the majority of the agricultural population in Peshawar, Kohat and Bannu, while beyond the administrative border they are in exclusive possession from Chitral to the Gomal. In Hazara, Gujars and other tribes of Indian origin dominate, while Dera Ismail Khan is inhabited mainly by Jats.

Pathan is not now a racial term, whatever its original significance may have been. It nowdenotes status, and is said in Swat and Dir to describe one who possesses a share in the tribal estate and who has therefore a voice in the village and tribal councils. The Pathan tribes are mainly of Uranian origin, but many of their sections are affiliated clans of Hindki of indigenous descent, others of Syed (Arabian), and a few possibly of Turkish origin.

Next in numerical importance come the Awans or Vassals mainly in Hazara and the Peshawar valley. The Gujars also live in Hazara. They are also numerous in Dir, Swat, and Bajaur, where they speak Pashtu, through on the borders of Dir and Asmar they retain their Indian speech. Other less numerous tribes are the Jats, mostly in Dera Ismail Khan, Syeds, Tanaolis, Malliars, Dhunds, Balochs, Rajputsm Sheikhs, Kharrals, Mughals, Qureshis, Baghbans, Parachas, Kassabs, and Gakhars. Of Hindu castes, the ArorasKhattris, and Brahmans are important. In Jandol and Maidan are various other tribes of Jafir descent converted to Islam, and now reckoned as Pathans.

Of the artisan classes the most numerous are the Tarkhans or carpenters, Some of whom raised under British rule to the status of a professional class as trained engineers next to them in numerical strength are the Julahas (weavers), then come the Lahore (black-smiths). Mochis (leather-workers and shoemakers) Kumhars (potters and brick-burners) Sonars (goldsmiths) And Teelis (oil-pressers
- See more at: http://kp.gov.pk/page/races_and_tribes#sthash.rVHv464J.dpuf

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 12:59 AM
Pre-Pashtun Swatis such as the Tanolis?

Yes them too actually a lot of Punjabi Hindkos got pashtunized near the western boundaries. Peshawar, Dera Ismail Khan and Swat are examples. In other thread, I raised this historical truth but was argued upon that these must be outside Punjabi settlers who settled in to KPK during time of Ranjeet Sing. But historical records show otherwise, infact these were the original indigenous people of this area who were displaced by the invading armies during the 11th century.
I have quoted references this time so that it leaves no room for any ambiguity.

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 12:59 AM
Interesting bit that you shared about the Turis.
I guess there is something native and migrant to the Sarbanri and Karlanri divisions too.
Pashtun history and origins are forever obscured, because of the Abrahamic genealogies adopted about 5 centuries ago.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 01:05 AM
Interesting bit that you shared about the Turis.
I guess there is something native and migrant to the Sarbanri and Karlanri divisions too.
Pashtun history and origins are forever obscured, because of the Abrahamic genealogies adopted about 5 centuries ago.

so true, actually there was a very good book written by a paktun author about various tribes of KPK and their conquests. My interest in that book was that it mentioned the local people whom the Paktun displaced or they were ultimately Paktunized. It was a great book was available online too. I am wondering if any forum member can refresh my memory......

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 01:07 AM
Yes them too actually a lot of Punjabi Hindkos got pashtunized near the western boundaries. Peshawar, Dera Ismail Khan and Swat are examples. In other thread, I raised this historical truth but was argued upon that these must be outside Punjabi settlers who settled in to KPK during time of Ranjeet Sing. But historical records show otherwise, infact these were the original indigenous people of this area who were displaced by the invading armies during the 11th century.
I have quoted references this time so that it leaves no room for any ambiguity.

I know of many Hindu and Sikh Families who lived, not in the cities, but in villages of across what is now KPK, in Shabqadar, Kohat, Dera Ismail Khan, even in Waziristan. And an Afghani friend even tells me of a few, handful, of Hindu families in Southern Afghanistan, until about 15-20 years ago.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 01:09 AM
The Paktuns were tribal war like people unlike the Punjabi pastoralist and were very successful in their military advances. The advance however was stopped near the Salt Range by Punjabies ( Ghakkars, Awaans and Jatts)

http://www.wwfpak.org/ecoregions/images/Salt-Range-map.jpg

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 01:12 AM
I know of many Hindu and Sikh Families who lived, not in the cities, but in villages of across what is now KPK, in Shabqadar, Kohat, Dera Ismail Khan, even in Waziristan. And an Afghani friend even tells me of a few, handful, of Hindu families in Southern Afghanistan, until about 15-20 years ago.

Yes, but unfortunately many Pakistanies would not accept that historical truth . In this thread, I would try to get as much proof as possible that these were contested lands and once roamed by Punjabi tribes like ( Jats, Gujjars, Awaans , Ghakkars, Rajputs etc. ) who were later pushed east wards during the muslim conquest. Dera Ismail and Dera Ghazi Khan people still speak a dialect of Punjabi.

Some would disagree, but the current day Niazies of Mianwalies are also of Punjabi Origin and speak Jangli or Seraiki Language which is not related to Pashtu at all.

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 01:21 AM
My point was that these Afghani Hindus speak Pashto and something that is quite close to Potohari. Similarly, the Hindu families from the erstwhile 'Frontier' villages spoke a very interesting dialect of Hindko.

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 01:28 AM
so true, actually there was a very good book written by a paktun author about various tribes of KPK and their conquests. My interest in that book was that it mentioned the local people whom the Paktun displaced or they were ultimately Paktunized. It was a great book was available online too. I am wondering if any forum member can refresh my memory......

I believe you are talking about some professor from a KPK university. I friend quotes him extensively and speaks of his own ancestors getting Pakhtunized,they were NOT Punjabis but an eastern Iranic/Tajik people, whose cousins in the Pamirs, the Yaghnobis, continue to speak that ancient language and retain some traces of their old Zoroastrian faith,while the 'real' Pakhtuns were in all probability Turkic Tengrists.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 01:30 AM
My point was that these Afghani Hindus speak Pashto and something that is quite close to Potohari. Similarly, the Hindu families from the erstwhile 'Frontier' villages spoke a very interesting dialect of Hindko.

Well leme share with you some interesting material.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLC6fHV4zxo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp22mN-oEZM

My effort is not to just shoot in the air but provide documentary proofs/evidences of our postulates and statements so far.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 01:34 AM
I believe you are talking about some professor from a KPK university. I friend quotes him extensively and speaks of his own ancestors getting Pakhtunized,they were NOT Punjabis but an eastern Iranic/Tajik people, whose cousins in the Pamirs, the Yaghnobis, continue to speak that ancient language and retain some traces of their old Zoroastrian faith,while the 'real' Pakhtuns were in all probability Turkic Tengrists.

The Pamiries were paktunized along with Gujars, Awaans and other indigenous groups of KPK. History is very interesting but always get over shadowed by religion and politics.

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 01:39 AM
Actually, these are NOT Pakhtuns, these are basically the natives, who lived here before these territories went under the control of a series of tribes, that arrived from the North.

Rahuls77
09-19-2018, 01:41 AM
You see the tension playing out in Afghanistan today. The Civil War is an ethnic war, not a religious war,between many of the Pakhtun traditionalists vs the rest of the ethnic groups, most prominently the Tajiks.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 01:42 AM
Actually, these are NOT Pakhtuns, these are basically the natives, who lived here before these territories went under the control of a series of tribes, that arrived from the North.

Due to political and ethno centered pride many would deny their existence that these were the original people. Demography changes over time but that does not mean we should deny history. Some migrated, some displaced , some wiped out and others adopted the culture and language of the invaders.

Raza94
09-19-2018, 06:37 PM
What group in West Punjab has the highest population? Jatts,Rajputs,Arain?

I know its tough to give an answer because as far as I know these things aren't recorded in Pakistan

Raza94
09-19-2018, 06:38 PM
Yes, but unfortunately many Pakistanies would not accept that historical truth . In this thread, I would try to get as much proof as possible that these were contested lands and once roamed by Punjabi tribes like ( Jats, Gujjars, Awaans , Ghakkars, Rajputs etc. ) who were later pushed east wards during the muslim conquest. Dera Ismail and Dera Ghazi Khan people still speak a dialect of Punjabi.

Some would disagree, but the current day Niazies of Mianwalies are also of Punjabi Origin and speak Jangli or Seraiki Language which is not related to Pashtu at all.

Is Jangli spoken anywhere other than Jhang? My dads family is actually from Jhang, their pind is Pirkot Sidhana

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 10:05 PM
Is Jangli spoken anywhere other than Jhang? My dads family is actually from Jhang, their pind is Pirkot Sidhana

Jangli dialect is widely spoken in areas including Faisalabad, Chiniot, Sahiwal, Toba Tek Singh, Bahawalnagar districts in Pakistani Punjab. Rachnavi and Dibhari are alternate names of this dialect.

Saad2016
09-19-2018, 10:06 PM
What group in West Punjab has the highest population? Jatts,Rajputs,Arain?

I know its tough to give an answer because as far as I know these things aren't recorded in Pakistan

very had to answer in the absence of any census or study.

poi
09-19-2018, 11:38 PM
very had to answer in the absence of any census or study.

Pakistan doesn't have ethnic/caste vote banks? Consider yourself lucky lol

Saad2016
09-20-2018, 12:08 AM
Pakistan doesn't have ethnic/caste vote banks? Consider yourself lucky lol

well , u cannot win elections in KPK if u r a Punjabi and u cannot win a seat in Punjab if you are Sindi and so on. But caste is not that much of importance in elections, your ethnic background is!

bol_nat
09-22-2018, 05:08 AM
Yes, but unfortunately many Pakistanies would not accept that historical truth . In this thread, I would try to get as much proof as possible that these were contested lands and once roamed by Punjabi tribes like ( Jats, Gujjars, Awaans , Ghakkars, Rajputs etc. ) who were later pushed east wards during the muslim conquest. Dera Ismail and Dera Ghazi Khan people still speak a dialect of Punjabi.

Some would disagree, but the current day Niazies of Mianwalies are also of Punjabi Origin and speak Jangli or Seraiki Language which is not related to Pashtu at all.

You clearly have little idea about these castes. Language=race isn't same thing.

Niazis are of pashtun origin but don't speak pashto now. Awans and gujjars are the only ones you mentioned that were found in KP, west of indus. Rajputs and jatts? Not really. The only jatts in KP are kutanas who are chuhras. They started claiming to be jats after British raj, its well documented. They are relatively recent migrants from eastern districts for sure despite speaking pashto now. Same with hindu castes like khatris and aroras.

Ghakkars are found in hindko/hazara region, which was part of NWFP but more closer to potohar and azad kashmir, east of indus. Gujjars indeed are found in Swat and KP and they seem to be old population of northen areas.

So in KP west of indus awans and gujjars seem to be old population. Though awans only in plain areas of KP like Peshawar. The hills/mountains areas like FATA etc likely had dardic like population before pashtunization. This is why northen pashtuns tend to be more similar to dardic like population of Chitral genetically.

Saad2016
09-22-2018, 12:00 PM
You clearly have little idea about these castes. Language=race isn't same thing.

Niazis are of pashtun origin but don't speak pashto now. Awans and gujjars are the only ones you mentioned that were found in KP, west of indus. Rajputs and jatts? Not really. The only jatts in KP are kutanas who are chuhras. They started claiming to be jats after British raj, its well documented. They are relatively recent migrants from eastern districts for sure despite speaking pashto now. Same with hindu castes like khatris and aroras.

Ghakkars are found in hindko/hazara region, which was part of NWFP but more closer to potohar and azad kashmir, east of indus. Gujjars indeed are found in Swat and KP and they seem to be old population of northen areas.

So in KP west of indus awans and gujjars seem to be old population. Though awans only in plain areas of KP like Peshawar. The hills/mountains areas like FATA etc likely had dardic like population before pashtunization. This is why northen pashtuns tend to be more similar to dardic like population of Chitral genetically.

I have offered links and references for the viewer's considerations. I am trying to build on a solid discussion supported by census, history, graphs links and you tubes. Your personal opinions/likes/dislikes is not an obligation. Thank you.

Rahuls77
09-23-2018, 06:16 PM
You clearly have little idea about these castes. Language=race isn't same thing.

Niazis are of pashtun origin but don't speak pashto now. Awans and gujjars are the only ones you mentioned that were found in KP, west of indus. Rajputs and jatts? Not really. The only jatts in KP are kutanas who are chuhras. They started claiming to be jats after British raj, its well documented. They are relatively recent migrants from eastern districts for sure despite speaking pashto now. Same with hindu castes like khatris and aroras.

Ghakkars are found in hindko/hazara region, which was part of NWFP but more closer to potohar and azad kashmir, east of indus. Gujjars indeed are found in Swat and KP and they seem to be old population of northen areas.

So in KP west of indus awans and gujjars seem to be old population. Though awans only in plain areas of KP like Peshawar. The hills/mountains areas like FATA etc likely had dardic like population before pashtunization. This is why northen pashtuns tend to be more similar to dardic like population of Chitral genetically.

The Pashtuns of Mianwali,the Niazis have definitely been mixing with the local population of Punjab, however the Niazis themselves are NOT of Punjabi descent.
What do you think about the Janjuas of Kahuta, their lineages that are traced back to the Kabul Shahis?

bol_nat
09-24-2018, 01:13 AM
The Pashtuns of Mianwali,the Niazis have definitely been mixing with the local population of Punjab, however the Niazis themselves are NOT of Punjabi descent.
What do you think about the Janjuas of Kahuta, their lineages that are traced back to the Kabul Shahis?

No idea.

prashantvaidwan
09-24-2018, 04:14 PM
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2016/05/17/jats-of-khyber-pakhtunkhwa/amp/
Jats of kpk

Rahuls77
09-24-2018, 08:43 PM
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2016/05/17/jats-of-khyber-pakhtunkhwa/amp/
Jats of kpk

Not quite sure, if there were and continue to be Jatts in the Frontier!

Pakhtunisation of the region, which started almost 800-500 years ago, absorbing several previous settlers, is now virtually accepted by many, the question is what and who formed the Jatt class of the region?

Saad2016
09-24-2018, 11:03 PM
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2016/05/17/jats-of-khyber-pakhtunkhwa/amp/
Jats of kpk

Thank you for your solid input. It always make a thread more knowledgeful when it is supported with references and studies!

desi
01-29-2021, 06:32 AM
You clearly have little idea about these castes. Language=race isn't same thing.

Niazis are of pashtun origin but don't speak pashto now. Awans and gujjars are the only ones you mentioned that were found in KP, west of indus. Rajputs and jatts? Not really. The only jatts in KP are kutanas who are chuhras. They started claiming to be jats after British raj, its well documented. They are relatively recent migrants from eastern districts for sure despite speaking pashto now. Same with hindu castes like khatris and aroras.

Ghakkars are found in hindko/hazara region, which was part of NWFP but more closer to potohar and azad kashmir, east of indus. Gujjars indeed are found in Swat and KP and they seem to be old population of northen areas.

So in KP west of indus awans and gujjars seem to be old population. Though awans only in plain areas of KP like Peshawar. The hills/mountains areas like FATA etc likely had dardic like population before pashtunization. This is why northen pashtuns tend to be more similar to dardic like population of Chitral genetically.

Any idea about Tarkhans in KPK?

Also I wonder what region of Punjab was the centre of power at the time when the Afghans started pushing eastwards, considering there was no significant response by the people? I'm guessing it was Majha (Lahore) as it would have been far away from the Afghan activity.

AlluGobi
01-30-2021, 03:19 PM
well , u cannot win elections in KPK if u r a Punjabi and u cannot win a seat in Punjab if you are Sindi and so on. But caste is not that much of importance in elections, your ethnic background is!

Eh this isn't entirely true. Sabir Hussain Awan won a national assembly seat from Peshawar back in 2002, and came second a few times since then. It's not impossible for non Pashtuns to win in KPK, (I am not even counting the Hazara division area which has a different dynamic to most other areas in KPK.

Source: https://www.urdupoint.com/politics/politician/sabir-hussain-awan-8229.html

Also, non Punjabis regularly win elections in Punjab, especially in mixed areas of South and North-West Punjab. Support of biradaris matter a lot more in Punjab. While in KPK, it's more a religious vs nationalist vs federal thing. But don't quote me on KPK situation, someone from there will be better suited to answer.

Rahuls77
01-30-2021, 10:10 PM
Eh this isn't entirely true. Sabir Hussain Awan won a national assembly seat from Peshawar back in 2002, and came second a few times since then. It's not impossible for non Pashtuns to win in KPK, (I am not even counting the Hazara division area which has a different dynamic to most other areas in KPK.

Source: https://www.urdupoint.com/politics/politician/sabir-hussain-awan-8229.html

Also, non Punjabis regularly win elections in Punjab, especially in mixed areas of South and North-West Punjab. Support of biradaris matter a lot more in Punjab. While in KPK, it's more a religious vs nationalist vs federal thing. But don't quote me on KPK situation, someone from there will be better suited to answer.

Bilours are believed to be Awans as well.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2021, 11:01 PM
Any idea about Tarkhans in KPK?

Also I wonder what region of Punjab was the centre of power at the time when the Afghans started pushing eastwards, considering there was no significant response by the people? I'm guessing it was Majha (Lahore) as it would have been far away from the Afghan activity.

My Paternal family most likely moved to Baloch/Pashtun tribal areas during Sikh empire expansion. I am sure same case was for your family.

AlluGobi
01-31-2021, 05:54 PM
Bilours are believed to be Awans as well.

The Bilours like the late Bashir Ahmad Bilour of ANP? Didn't know that, a lot of them support ANP which is really surprising.

Rahuls77
01-31-2021, 07:38 PM
The Bilours like the late Bashir Ahmad Bilour of ANP? Didn't know that, a lot of them support ANP which is really surprising.

Yeah, although the family claims to be Kakazai from Bajaur, they are Hindko Speakers, unusual for the leaders of a Pashtun POlitical party. However it is also a fact that they have controlled the purses of the Party, so them holding some political power is not surprising. Some Pashtun groups believe they are actually from Gujrat.