DF85 (L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222>DF85) & DF97

[TigerMW]

DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.

[oneillabu]

DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.

Exact match to M222 Modal

35883 Swago
Kit number unknown McKenzie

GD from M222 Modal

GD = 13
Qquip (ysearch) Darcy
N5613 Gallion
97959 Galyean
150906 Kavanagh
194478 Dennison
63119 Gillespie
34230 Gillsepie
189098 Helton
9151 Logan
2280 O’Gara
128533 Dalton
184324 Walker
153075 McKenzie
47058 Martin
191845 McCreary
116222 Murray
90152 Barron
73487 Cruden
114467 Connor
N50250 Shaughnessy
148768 Cowan
57840 Fleming
91925 Brennan
88644 MacAdam
87280 Bain
200164 Mackin
54126 McCreary
172760 Whalley

GD = 14
206806 Quinton
140782 Thomas
78699 Dunn
15820 Dunn
155589 Gillespie
39670 Smith
148306 Riley
170452 White
166196 White
173098 Wilson
81057 Bray
58898 Brannon
16182 Dunne
22172 McMurty
147415 Moore
19069 McMurty
222842 Campbell
118972 McCarthy
165067 Cunningham
53836 Ferrell

GD = 15
865R7 O’Dowd
4391 Garrah
114367 McHugh
98514 Doudle
N-7 Nolan
98422 Barron
22081 Dunn
71439 Dunn
N24075 Dees
N-5 O’Nolan
163088 Williams
227877 Byrne
131828 Noone
108214 Agnew

GD = 16
N99804 Dolan
23279 Kyle
&6X6AQ McDonald
212113 Dunne

GD = 17
197231 McConnaughey
73592 Lyons
121042 McCoy
68387 Dolton

GD = 18
16646 Conroy
37514 Nichols

GD = 19
56129 Wright

[Dubhthach]

DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.

Iain Kennedy, is maintaining a PDF tree showing the known subclades of M222 (Chromo 2) with results added in:

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

Here's a PNG I generated of the most recent version of tree (Halloween 2013)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/m222.png

Obviously we are awaiting on Chromo2 results to come in to flesh it out, as DF85/DF97 are available for ordering there's been a fair amount of orders put in. There's a total of 30 DF85- results in the M222 project.

Dave Reynolds had posted this version of the tree over in the other thread. Once the Chromo2 results start rolling in no doubt we'll be able to flesh out the tree quite abit. I believe there is also one of the DF49+/DF23+/Z2961+/M222- testing Chromo2 (Traynor?). Given that Z2961 is between M222 and DF23 that may be an interesting result.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/M222-DR.png

[TigerMW]

DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.

I should have been clearer. My statement was vague. I should have said the bulk of M222 people have GD ranges with each other of not much more than 12 or less (at 67).

The way I calculate it, the highest GD at 67 to the M222 modal is 18. That would be in comparison to something like 30 for L21 so it looks like M222 is quite a bit younger than L21. I've got that 96% of the M222 people are are GD=12 or less to the M222 modal so they are fairly tightly related. Since we only have a handful fo DF85 people and we already have one that is GD=12 from another, it appears that DF85 could be nearly as old as M222. That's not for sure, but DF85 is not extremely young, that's for sure.

[oneillabu]

I should have been clearer. My statement was vague. I should have said the bulk of M222 people have GD ranges with each other of not much more than 12 or less (at 67).

The way I calculate it, the highest GD at 67 to the M222 modal is 18. That would be in comparison to something like 30 for L21 so it looks like M222 is quite a bit younger than L21. I've got that 96% of the M222 people are are GD=12 or less to the M222 modal so they are fairly tightly related. Since we only have a handful fo DF85 people and we already have one that is GD=12 from another, it appears that DF85 could be nearly as old as M222. That's not for sure, but DF85 is not extremely young, that's for sure.

The Genetic Distance between 197231 McConnaughey DF85+ and 16646 Conroy DF85- is 23

[cilldara]

I'm a distance of 12 markers away from the R-M222 Modal Haplotype (M5UKQ) at 76 markers on ySearch. I'm 11 away from the M222 Modal (6N59Y) at 67.

[TigerMW]

The Genetic Distance between 197231 McConnaughey DF85+ and 16646 Conroy DF85- is 23
I would expect some wide GDs between people of DF85+ and D85- people. However, that doesn't make M222 anywhere near as old as L21. There will be some abberations on the edges of that will diverge away and some that converge back in. I'm not sure what you are trying to point out.

[oneillabu]

I would expect some wide GDs between people of DF85+ and D85- people. However, that doesn't make M222 anywhere near as old as L21. There will be some abberations on the edges of that will diverge away and some that converge back in. I'm not sure what you are trying to point out.

I used the most extreme example to show how deceptive Genetic distances can be because DF85 is downstream of M222 and yet there is no example to be found between M222 people with a GD this large.

[TigerMW]

I used the most extreme example to show how deceptive Genetic distances can be because DF85 is downstream of M222 and yet there is no example to be found between M222 people with a GD this large.
Agreed, and there is a chance that Lally has some kind of multi-step/large single event that causes his GD to be off the others in DF85, but given that we have multiple STR signature already for DF85 to go along with Lally's haplotype, I think there is a good chance that DF85 is old enough to deserve wide spread testing within M222. That's all I was trying to point out. We have only a handful of DF85+ haplotypes to look at but it looks promising. Additional testing is the only way to find out.

[Dubhthach]

Personally I think S661 and S660 are going to be very interesting. Having a nested structure of SNP's will allow us at least split up groups for example. At the moment the DF85- are all just lumped together. It will be interesting to see which are:
M222+ -> S661- (thence their DF85- result)
M222+ -> S661* (negative for S660 thence DF85- result)
M222+ -> S660* (negative for both S588 and DF85)
M222+ -> S588+ (parallel clade to DF85 thence DF85- result)

At the moment all we can say is that we have circa 12 DF85+ (4 of whom confirmed DF97+) and circa 32 DF85-.

Lally is confirmed DF85+/DF97-.

In the Ireland project we have two DF97+ they have a GD of 17 from one another at 67 markers. Lally has a GD of 12 (McNeely) and 17 (McConnaughey) from each of the these two DF97+. I'd say DF97 is also like it's parent DF85 quite old.

If we compare Lally (DF85+/DF97-) to the DF85- members of the project we see a GD range of between 7 (Coyne) and 16 (Dunn) at 67 markers.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Dubhthach]

Should note that there are 32 DF85 tests pending in the Ireland project with a further two awaiting shipping to the lab. As well as that there are a total of 5 DF97 tests pending as well.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Timothy]

DF85+ and DF97+ results for my Herrin family member. FTDNA# 150998 and YSearch KN793. Ui Neill badge on home page.

Y haplotype spelling variations: Herring, Hearin, Hearring, Hearon, Hearron, Herron.

What makes this so sweet is that before DNA testing, he thought his Herrin ancestor to the US in early 1700's was German, as someone in the family about 100 years ago suggested the name came from the Black Forest, as evidenced by the name of a town, Bad Herrenalb. Another family myth bites the dust.

[Timothy]

Reviewing the new Haplotree for Herrin above, who is DF85+ and DF97+ after SNP testing at FTDNA, there are 24 downstream clades listed for M222 that they say he should test for.

They don't list DF85 or DF97, so he's displayed only as M222+.

Are one of those 24 equivalent to DF85 and DF97?

Is there any SNP known to be downstream of DF97 yet?

[David Wilson]

No, DF85 and DF97 are still not on the combined FTDNA/Genographic tree.

I would not rush to test for any of the "new" Geno 2.0 SNPs until the chaos settles down and reliability questions are resolved. CTS12173 in particular seems to be horribly inconsistent, but because nearly a dozen members of the R-M222 project were thought to be positive for the SNP, it looked like it might define a significant subgroup. Not so.

The M222 tree is more complex than the flat structure of the FTDNA/Genographic tree would indicate. There are three distinct branches starting from S7073 (just below M222), and then further branching within those groups. DF97 is actually a terminal SNP on one of those branches, so a lot is going on above it.

Here's what the tree actually looks like. This diagram integrates data from FTDNA, Full Genomes Corporation, IrelandsDNA and confirmed SNPs from Geno 2.0.

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

[fridurich]

Very interesting discussions. I notice on Kennedy's M222 tree that DF97 includes Dohertys, McKees/McGees, a McDowell, and a couple of McCombs. Of course there are other Scottish and Irish looking names under DF97 as well. I have read where the McKees, McDowells, and McCombs lived in Galloway, and it doesn't seem like they were far from each other. Those are all Scottish, so it is interesting to see the Doherty's, who were Irish, under the DF97 also. Does anyone have a good idea when the Dohertys and the 3 Scottish families I mention would share a common ancestor? Is it more likely Dohertys or their ancestors immigrated to Scotland and left descendants with Scottish surnames or vice Versa? Thanks for any help!

[Dubhthach]

Very interesting discussions. I notice on Kennedy's M222 tree that DF97 includes Dohertys, McKees/McGees, a McDowell, and a couple of McCombs. Of course there are other Scottish and Irish looking names under DF97 as well. I have read where the McKees, McDowells, and McCombs lived in Galloway, and it doesn't seem like they were far from each other. Those are all Scottish, so it is interesting to see the Doherty's, who were Irish, under the DF97 also. Does anyone have a good idea when the Dohertys and the 3 Scottish families I mention would share a common ancestor? Is it more likely Dohertys or their ancestors immigrated to Scotland and left descendants with Scottish surnames or vice Versa? Thanks for any help!

DF97 is fairly old, if you look at YFULL (using just three BigY/NGS results I should note) you see:

FGC8739/Y7006 * DF97 * FGC8738/Y7007 formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp

What would be more interesting is what sub-branches of DF97 do the relevant men fall into. The current BigY results has a Dowell and number of O'Doherty's (and a mcDevitt -- branch of O'Doherty's) in separate branches of wider DF97. We have at least one O'Donnell who is DF85+/DF97+ from Donegal, with regards to McKee, I would say name can also be Irish, though in case of Donegal it's often anglisced as McGee (there's a DF97+ McGee)

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=McGee&UserID=

[fridurich]

Thanks Dubtac, I appreciate your response. I knew McGee was also an Irish surname (I have Irish, Scottish, and Ulster Scot ancestry, among others, myself.) I was going on what I read in Alan Millikan's article about M-222 Milligans and related families in southwest Scotland at http://regarde-bien.com/swscotland.htm and on the M-222 chart he used here http://regarde-bien.com/S660SWScotlandV.2.pdf which isn't as comprehensive as Kennedy's chart. I have also looked at Kennedy's chart. I think Millikan wanted to focus on the families connected to the Millikans, so, that may be why he didn't use the full m-222 chart that Kennedy has.

So, I am basically talking about the McGee/McKees, McCombs, and MacDowalls of southwest Scotland he mentions in his article. I could have made that clearer. For the O'Dohertys/Dohertys, etc. with whom he groups a Davitt (probably originally MacDavitt), he has them under snp A1330-2, which he has one snp downstream of DF97. He doesn't have the MacDowalls, McCombs, or McGee/McKees under A1330-2, but instead has them as DF97 without being on a downstream snp from it.

So, it seems to me that the common ancestor of these southwestern Scottish MacDowells (different from the McDougals kin to the giant McDonald clan), McCombs, McKees, and, the O'Dohertys, and MacDavitts of Ireland, probably lived about 600 A.D., before surnames were used. I'm thinking that either, one, or some, of the ancestral group to all of these families, and probably ancestral to other families, could have left Northern Ireland and migrated into southwestern Scotland where some of their descendants became McKees, MacDowalls, etc, or, less likely to me, the ancestral group could have originated in southwestern Scotland and some of them immigrated to Northern Ireland where some became O'Doherys and later, some O'Dohertys became McDavitts.

Just thought it was fascinating that these families are related, albeit a long way back, and how they came to be in the areas they migrated to. I would like to know what downstream snps of DF97 all of these families fall into myself. Any thoughts or inputs on this subject are welcome from anyone, thanks.

[Dubhthach]

One of the Dowell's has done BigY, he shares a SNP called ZZ36 with Duncan's/McConnaughey. As far as I know no McCombs or McGee's have done BigY (or haven't shared them with Alex Williamson)

What's evident is that the two branches are parallel to each other (ZZ36 vs. O'Doherty's)

http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=589&star=false

What we would need also is any DF85+/DF97+ O'Donnell's/Boyle's/Gallaghers to do BigY.

DF85 is old going off yfull analysis, they predicting a TMRCA of 1850 ybp with bit more recent for DF97 but at 1400 ybp, however they are only basing that off three DF97 BAM files, more samples would help refine that I imagine.

Not to be a pedant but as "Northern Ireland" only came into existence in 1921 the use of term is anachronistic, particularly given that the O'Doherty's as a family are centered in Donegal which isn't in Northern Ireland.

[fridurich]

Thanks for the interesting info about ZZ36 and the surnames attached to it. I haven't heard of that snp before. I'm kind of new at genetic genealogy.

Also, I looked at the chart you had a link to and it was interesting. Yes, it would be great for DF85+/97+ O'Donnell/Boyles/Gallaghers to do the big Y. I think a whole lot more men would do it if it was cheaper, but I understand the price is reasonable for the wealth of snp data you receive.

You are right about me using the term "Northern Ireland". My direct paternal line ancestor, Michael O'Hair/O'Hare was from County Down in what is now Northern Ireland, but at the time he immigrated to America, of course, Ireland. So, I knew that Northern Ireland didn't exist at the time. lol I think my mind was trying to communicate that I thought probably some of the ancestral group that the O'Dohertys would spring from, immigrated from the northern part of Ireland, around the area the O'Dohertys lived, and went to southwestern Scotland (to Galloway) where their descendants took on Scottish surnames when surnames came into being, but I didn't communicate it in the best way.

[Baoighill]

What we would need also is any DF85+/DF97+ O'Donnell's/Boyle's/Gallaghers to do BigY.

Done. I'm a Boyle confirmed to be DF85+ and DF97+, and have (at least for now) been placed under ZZ36 at BY3343 on the Big Tree. My second highest Big Y variant match is a Daugherty, but I do not have the O'Dochartaigh BY470, BY471 markers, which means my common ancestor with the O'Doherty line appears to be DF97 at the moment. Some of the genealogies have Cennfaeladh (Cenn Faelad, Chindfaoladh) as the common ancestor of O'Boyle and O'Doherty. If there are DF97+ O'Donnells as well, could DF97 be the marker for descendants of Cennfaeladh of Cenel Conaill? Just a thought. Somebody prove me wrong, if that isn't the case.

As to the McKee, McGee question, I quote this from the McGee Surname Project:
"Tradition has it that the land later known as the Parish of Balmaghie in Kirkcudbrightshire, Scotland was settled, perhaps in the ninth century, by an Irish chieftain of the M'Ghie name."

This suggests an Irish origin for the McGee/McKee DF97+ group. Descendants of Cenel Conaill who moved to Lowland Scotland?

In any event, I'm trying to work through various genealogies to understand the relationships between Cenel Conaill, the Sil Lugdach, and Clann Chindfaoladh, and any assistance will be appreciated.

[Dubhthach]

Good news to hear a Boyle has done BigY. We don't currently have a O'Donnell BigY, however via the M222+ bundle we have an O'Donnell who is Z29319+ which is like you under ZZ36 (Z29319 is branch of FGC19851 which is parallel to BY3343).

In the traditional genealogy the O'Donnell's and the Boyle's share a common ancestor that is closer together than their shared ancestor with the O'Doherty's. It's interesting that the one DF85+ Gallagher to do BigY is DF85+, S668+ and DF97-

Which if it's reflective of Donegal Gallaghers as a totality might lend credence to your idea about DF97 been among the Cenél Lughdach (which consists of O'Donnell's, Boyles and Doherty's) within wider context of Cenél Conaill.

[Baoighill]

Thank you Dubhthach. Another Boyle match of mine (GD4 at y111), who has not done Big Y, and I have done extensive research into the early genealogies of Cenel Conaill. The most illuminating source for this material I've discovered so far is to be found in a book by Brian Lacey entitled Lug's Forgotten Donegal Kingdom. While I believe Mr. Lacey's underlying premise (that Sil Lugdach is not actually related to Cenel Conaill) is being actively disproven by the Big Tree, he has some very well researched genealogy timelines and quite a lot of information about Cenel Conaill.

The Book of Fenagh and Rawlinson B502, quoted by Lacey, have constructions of the early Cenel Conaill genealogies which match up nicely with the Big Tree. For instance, according to these sources, O'Dochartaigh, O'Baoighill, and O'Donnell share the first Cenn Faelad, son of Garb (Garbh, Gairb), as a common ancestor. However, O'Gallagher (Gallcubhair), is split off farther up the tree under Setna (Setnai). If our hypothesis is true, there should be a line of Gallaghers upstream of DF97, but there should be Boyles, O'Donnells and O'Dogherties at DF97. Lo and behold, on the Big Tree, there is a Gallagher at S668, above DF97, and apparently now Boyle and O'Dogherty below DF97. You indicate an O'Donnell at DF97 and ZZ36+ also. That holds water with the Book of Fenagh genealogy. It is also consistent with the O'Clery Genealogies.

Further, per these references, the O'Dochartaigh split off as descended from Fiamhain, son of the first Cenn Faelad, but both O'Boyle and O'Donnell descend from the second Cenn Faelad, son of Muircertach. The Book of Fenagh indicates Muircertach had five sons, Dalach (progenitor of O'Donnell), Bradagan (progenitor of O'Boyle) and three others from a different mother, Cernachan, Mael Gaoithe and Mael Foithbhil. If this were true, according to our hypothesis, there should be a common ancestor downstream of DF97 shared by the O'Boyles and the O'Donnells, but not by the O'Dochartaigh. Could that ancestor be ZZ36? This would be in the line of Airnelach, Mael Duin and the second Cenn Faelad. If there is an O'Donnell with a marker for ZZ36, this supports the theory. To reinforce this, lo and behold again, there are two Carnahans listed under ZZ36 on the Big Tree. Descendants of Cernachan, step-brother of Dalach and Bradagan?

More importantly, based on the relative statistical ages of S668, DF97 and ZZ36, if you look at the dates from the Annals for the deaths of these Cenel Conaill fathers as calculated by Brian Lacey, they match up very nicely if you take S668 as a marker for Setna, DF97 as a marker for the Lugaid->Ronan->Garbh->Cenn Faelad line, and ZZ36 as a marker for the Airnelach->Mael Duin->second Cenn Faelad line.

There it is. Hope I'm not upsetting too many people.

[Dubhthach]

There are two Z29319+ O'Donnell's in the Ireland project (where I'm an admin). Both via SNP testing, one of them is based here in Ireland and is tested also to 111 STR's at which point he has a genetic distance of 5 from a Boyle who has BY35772+ as a terminal SNP.

I imagine that this kit would probably be interested in BiGY testing if it was sponsored somewhat.

[Dubhthach]

I have the Lacey book as well as his one on the broader Cenél Conaill in my personal library.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VZ1WGH9AL._SX384_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

It's useful book but didn't agree with his theories on the origin of the Northern Uí Néill. Likewise a number of historians also contested it for example, Dr. Colmán Etchingham from University of Maynooth

His review in IHS (Irish Historical Studies) can be read on Sci-Hub:
http://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/20720242


Lacey's problem is that he hardly succeeds in sustaining these postulates. Take the key
case of Conall Gulban: that he was brother to another Conall, Conall Cremthainne, ancestor
of the southern or midlands Uf Neill, looks, indeed, like a genealogist's conceit (p. 24).
That he was really ancestor both to the Cenel Conaill of Donegal and to Diarmait mac
Cerbaill - a shadowy but apparently historical sixth-century king, from whom the southern
or midlands 'Ui Neill' claimed descent - if sustained, would be fatal to the received
wisdom regarding the Uf Neill. But the case never proceeds beyond the hypothetical:
Diarmait 'could have had Donegal connections' (p. 24), 'may have had a connection with
the Cenel Conaill' (p. 153), this being an 'ingenious suggestion' (p. 165), subsequently,
a 'persuasive argument' (p. 176), so he is 'of probable Cenel Conaill origin' (p. 190),
and 'there are now good reasons for thinking that Diarmait was actually a northerner
and probably connected with the Cenel Conaill' (p. 206). Lacey's conviction strengthens
over 180 pages, based not on telling evidence, but, apparently, mere force of repetition.
The basic hypothesis attracts further conjecture: 'if Diarmait did take part [in the battle
of Cul Dreimne in 562], then it is more likely that he was actually leading the Donegal
kingdoms against their enemy. That enemy, although nowhere mentioned as such, was
almost certainly the Cenel Cairpre' (pp 184-5). There is no warrant for this, which is
directly belied by accounts of the battle.


Since his thesis is that, in effect, almost nobody of any consequence who claimed descent from Níall was so descended in reality, it remains to be explained by what quirk the label Uí Néill acquired the cachet it did.

[Robert McBride]

I have the Lacey book as well as his one on the broader Cenél Conaill in my personal library.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VZ1WGH9AL._SX384_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

It's useful book but didn't agree with his theories on the origin of the Northern Uí Néill. Likewise a number of historians also contested it for example, Dr. Colmán Etchingham from University of Maynooth

His review in IHS (Irish Historical Studies) can be read on Sci-Hub:
http://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/20720242i

Hi Dubhthach,

What is your opinion of Brian Lacey’s suggestion on page 286 of his Donegal Kingdoms book that Cenel Eoghan had an alliance with the Picts parallel to that between Cenel Conaill and Dal Riata?

If there was that could have been a way for S588 to get into the north east of Scotland.
I m probably imagining it but there seems to be a North East bias amongst the Scottish S588 samples on the Big tree anyway.

Sorry if its a bit off topic

[zackdaugherty]

We at the Ó Dochartaigh project have another clade forming that is Positive for DF97 like the primary Group 1 Ó Dochartaighs, but negative for BY471. The clade currently has only 2 testers but there are another 2 in processing right now. It can be seen here on the Big Tree sandwiched among McNutt/McNitt under DF97 > BY21203.

[UaLochlainn]

Hi Guys, I am completely new to all this stuff. Just got my results back from 23andme to show I am S-675. Is that the same as DF-85? My paternal linage is McLaughlin of Donegal.

[zackdaugherty]

Hi Guys, I am completely new to all this stuff. Just got my results back from 23andme to show I am S-675. Is that the same as DF-85? My paternal linage is McLaughlin of Donegal.

DF85 is a different name for the same SNP S675. Here is a view of an experimental haplotree under DF85 (I'm in here myself as B121647). This tree view is from Big Y 500/700 testers for the most part tested at Family Tree DNA (the only lab with a Y-DNA matching database). So people taking these types of tests are constantly discovering and creating more and more refined SNP branches under DF85. I currently don't see any McLaughlins under there yet but Donegal is definitely a hotspot for DF85 descended men.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=587

[UaLochlainn]

Thanks Zack, I appreciate the info! It makes sense since the McLaughlin and O'Doherty were kin under Niall of the Nine Hostages. Do you think I should take the Family Tree DNA or is there a way to use my 23andme results to join the tree you referenced?

[zackdaugherty]

Thanks Zack, I appreciate the info! It makes sense since the McLaughlin and O'Doherty were kin under Niall of the Nine Hostages. Do you think I should take the Family Tree DNA or is there a way to use my 23andme results to join the tree you referenced?

The only way to be admitted to the Big Tree is through Next Generation Sequencing such as Big Y 700 at Family Tree DNA. It examines about 14.5 million bases (A, G, T, C) for a tester against the reference genome for all discovered known SNPs and for all the SNPs so far unique to the tester. Currently it is up to 600,000+ shared/named SNP and private SNPs and growing with each tester. These private SNPs become important to find because when 2+ testers share them they shared a more recent common ancestor resulting in a new SNP clade more recent in time.

[Dubhthach]

I would recommend transferring your 23andme results into FTDNA and then ordering a Y-DNA STR test. At a minimum they should give you an option on a cheap test. The advantage of this is that they will send you new sample tube and once your sample is on record it can always be upgraded at later stages all the way up to potentially BigY tesitng. However I would not order a BigY test outside of a sale period given considerable savings available when they run a sale.

Still a reasonable sized STR test (37 or 67 STR's) should allow you to see Y-DNA matches, though as a DF85+ individual you will probably have a huge number as DF85 is perhaps one of the biggest known subbranches of M222.