PDA

View Full Version : DF27* (the real deal) (DF27+ Z196- DF81- DF83- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-)



TigerMW
11-05-2013, 12:57 AM
I just updated the R1b-DF27 FTDNA project "ungrouped" people to get them assigned. I also moved a few people from DF27+ to DF27+ Z196-. I've been surprised, but Z196 may not be as dominant in DF27 as I once thought.

I have one subgrouping set up that has invisible because no one can be put it in yet, I think. In the current subgrouping scheme, I'd call this DF27**, positive for DF27 and negative for everything downstream that they can test for.
DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

I suspect that is list of negatives is slightly how of date. What am I missing?

There is one fellow very close to this status.
f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27 DF27+ Z196- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

He's done Geno 2.0 and that doesn't put the negative SNPs on the Y DNA SNP report screen for the project so may be he is DF81- DF83-. Has anyone looked at his raw results for Geno 2.0?

If he is negative for both I'll update the supgroupings and add the negatives manually into the DF27 haplotypes spreadsheet.

Dubhthach
11-05-2013, 11:25 AM
I just updated the R1b-DF27 FTDNA project "ungrouped" people to get them assigned. I also moved a few people from DF27+ to DF27+ Z196-. I've been surprised, but Z196 may not be as dominant in DF27 as I once thought.

I have one subgrouping set up that has invisible because no one can be put it in yet, I think. In the current subgrouping scheme, I'd call this DF27**, positive for DF27 and negative for everything downstream that they can test for.
DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

I suspect that is list of negatives is slightly how of date. What am I missing?

There is one fellow very close to this status.
f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27 DF27+ Z196- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

He's done Geno 2.0 and that doesn't put the negative SNPs on the Y DNA SNP report screen for the project so may be he is DF81- DF83-. Has anyone looked at his raw results for Geno 2.0?

He has the following on order:
DF79
DF81
DF83
DF84
L1246
L194

Once those results come in that should answer your question Mike. I don't know if there is anyone looking at Geno 2.0 raw data for DF27+.

Him an a number of others form what you could almost call the "Ormond" DF27+ cluster -- Ormond = Urumhain = "East Munster", basically Tippeary but also including Kilkenny in context of medieval norman Earldom of Ormond

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Ormond_(Ireland)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormonde_Castle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormond_Lower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormond_Upper

Kennedy is a Tipperary name, the Kennedys are suppose to be Dál gCais (Type III -- R1b-L226+), in 59497 case all his close matches tend to have surnames from around general "Ormond" area. Namely Dwyer, Butler, Carroll, Kennedy, Foley, Ryan etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)

ArmandoR1b
11-05-2013, 09:07 PM
I just updated the R1b-DF27 FTDNA project "ungrouped" people to get them assigned. I also moved a few people from DF27+ to DF27+ Z196-. I've been surprised, but Z196 may not be as dominant in DF27 as I once thought.

Thank you for all the work you do Mike and thank you for pointing this out. Using your spreadsheet and selecting DF27+ shows 849 hits. Selecting Z196+ shows 621 hits which is 73% of DF27. It's still a significant percentage. Choosing Spain it shows 108 DF27+ and 79 Z196+ which is also 73%. Choosing Isles shows 361 DF27+ and 254 Z196+ which is 70%. This makes it look as though the average DF27+ groups found anywhere in Europe have a similar makeup as the Spanish. Regardless of where the point of origin is they seem to have spread pretty evenly. Am I right here?

TigerMW
11-05-2013, 11:37 PM
.. This makes it look as though the average DF27+ groups found anywhere in Europe have a similar makeup as the Spanish. Regardless of where the point of origin is they seem to have spread pretty evenly. Am I right here?

It's a little early yet, still. I think Iberia and southern France will have the highest frequencies. Parts of France may surprise us yet. However, relative to L21 anyway, DF27 is fairly well scattered. I think it is more scattered than U152 also, but that's clearly speculative.

Keep in mind that our DNA projects have an Isles bias, and an Irish/Scots bias amongst that.

TigerMW
11-06-2013, 12:21 AM
In the R1b-DF27_Haplotypes spreadsheet I have Kennedy speculatively assigned to STR signature/variety d-2521. Typically (but not always) these people have 390=25 464d=18 low CDY 481=24 520=21. 481=24 seems to be the most consistent marker with 520=21 a close second.

f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 Ireland
f207164 Cannady R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 UK
fN88747 Dwyer R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland
f138763 Ryan R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Glenough Lower
f198624 Carroll R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Limerick, Stonepark
f73256 Eddye R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 England, South West, Devonshire, Ashburton
f79047 Foley R1b-P312 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f109971 Ryan R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland
f121153 Wilkinson R1b-P312>DF27>L86.2+ d-2521-862 England, North East, Durham, Stockton-on-Tees
f172132 Wilkinson R1b-P312>DF27>L86.2+ d-2521-862 England, North East, Durham, Stockton-on-Tees
f155150 Butler R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f50661 Condra R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f163727 Lee R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland, Leinster, Co. Louth, Dunkalk
f115560 Smith R1b-P312 p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f48197 Dwyer R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Tipperary
f165032 Martin R1b-P312 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f169776 Cahoo R1b-P312>DF27 d- uas Ireland

It looks like L86.2 is a subclade of this group, but we need to discover an SNP or two for these guys.

The d-2521 group above is probably another very early branch off of DF27 outside of Z196. We need to know about the DF81 and DF83 status, though. This may help us better understand the origins of DF27. There is a heavy frequency of DF27 along the Pyrenees and into Spain, but there are also early branches that don't seem to be found there.

I see this group has a more Irish bent than most DF27 in the Isles.

Dubhthach
11-09-2013, 06:37 PM
He has the following on order:
DF79
DF81
DF83
DF84
L1246
L194

Results today, Kennedy is negative for all the above SNP's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
11-11-2013, 10:48 PM
Results today, Kennedy is negative for all the above SNP's.

Thanks. I think all of those d-2521 guys could end up with the same status. It looks like an Irish/Munster focus with Devonshire and perhaps oddly, Durham, thrown in. I do count L86.2 as a subset of this.

I guess Kennedy should get the explorer badge for DF27.:)

ArmandoR1b
11-12-2013, 12:07 AM
I'm not sure if this directly ties to Early Maritime Beakers or not, but for the folks who think DF27 was along the Atlantic very early here is one point on the scoreboard for them.

DF27* confirmation takes some pretty decent testing and our first true DF27* (or DF27** if you prefer) guy is an Irishman - Kennedy. Paragroups are fleeting kinds of things but there is an Isles variety that looks DF27* and at the very least they were an early branch from the DF27 known subclades.

DF27* thread for more info. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1543-DF27*-(the-real-deal)-(DF27-Z196-Z225-L617-L86-2-L881-L1231-)&p=18377&viewfull=1#post18377)

Other than DF81 which other SNPs does kit 193923 need to test for in order to qualify as being DF27* ?

DF27+, P312+, DF17-, DF19-, DF79-, DF83-, L1231-, L176.2-, L20-, L21-, L226-, L238-, L617-, L86.2-, L881-, M153-, M228.2-, M65-, U106-, U152-, Z196-, Z225-

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/NuevaGaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Are the SNPs that need to be tested part of the Geno 2.0 test?

tewilder
11-12-2013, 02:32 PM
Thanks. I think all of those d-2521 guys could end up with the same status. It looks like an Irish/Munster focus with Devonshire and perhaps oddly, Durham, thrown in. I do count L86.2 as a subset of this.

I guess Kennedy should get the explorer badge for DF27.:)

The closest STR matches to the Wilkinsons from Durham are three McCarvell/McCarvills, four steps at 67 markers. Two of them are said to be from Ireland.

ArmandoR1b
11-13-2013, 03:09 PM
Mike, I just found out that F193923 and F243639 match 107 out of 111 markers and they both have the same surname. They are also from states that border each other. They had been in contact with each other and had agreed for one person to test some SNPs and the other would test the other SNPs. F243639 tested negative for DF81. Therefore, they should both fit DF27* (the real deal) (DF27+ Z196- DF81- DF83- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-) unless I am missing something. Please let me know one way or another. Both of them are in your DF27 R1b-DF27 and Subclades Project.

Quay dweller
11-17-2013, 09:06 PM
I think I might be getting close to qualifying in this category. I'm kit number 200470 and so far have tested R1b-P312> DF27+ Z225- Z196- DF79- DF81- DF83- DF84-. I'm currently testing for L881 with Familytreedna. Keen to find my terminal SNP but not sure that I've found exactly the right strategy for achieving this. Any suggestions very welcome.

ArmandoR1b
11-18-2013, 01:59 AM
193923 has ordered DF81 so that he can be placed as Aaa. DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231- (R1b-DF27**) along with Kennedy 59497. It seems to me he should already be there though.

ArmandoR1b
11-24-2013, 03:55 PM
It's official now. The test for kit 193923 came back negative for DF81.

He is now DF27+, Z196-, Z225-, DF81-, DF83-, L617-, L86.2-, L881-, L1231- (R1b-DF27**) along with Kennedy 59497

razyn
11-25-2013, 01:49 AM
OK, I moved 193923 to group Aaa.

Quay dweller
12-22-2013, 07:43 PM
I think I might be getting close to qualifying in this category. I'm kit number 200470 and so far have tested R1b-P312> DF27+ Z225- Z196- DF79- DF81- DF83- DF84-. I'm currently testing for L881 with Familytreedna. Keen to find my terminal SNP but not sure that I've found exactly the right strategy for achieving this. Any suggestions very welcome.

I have now tested negative for L881 too. Thinking of testing for L617 next.

EastAnglian
01-03-2014, 09:46 AM
I have now tested negative for L881 too. Thinking of testing for L617 next.

Did you order L617?

corner
01-05-2014, 12:04 PM
I match a DF27** STR cluster named 'Rox2'. At least ten other matches, when they tested for DF27 as a 'one off' advanced test with FTDNA, are DF27+. I received Chromo2 Raw results just before Christmas but the expected S250+ (BritainsDNA's name for DF27) confirmation is yet to come because that SNP failed to manufacture on their chip.

So far my Chromo2 shows a positive result for P312 and negative for all currently known downstream subclades of P312 and DF27/S250, including:

Z196- (BritainsDNA's S355-), L617-, Z215- (S357-), Z225- (S225-), Z229- (S359-), L194-, L1231-, DF79-, DF81-, DF83-, DF84-, L221-, L194-, L86-, L1246- (S1285-), L881-). Other cluster matches, when they previously tested some of these markers, also got negative results.

So Rox2 still looks DF27**.

As for any unknown, DF27**/Rox2 specific SNPs, Chromo2 comparisons highlighted several possibilities. However, after initial searches on the SNP names they appear to also be present in a couple of Chromo2 results from unrelated haplogroups and P312 subclades, ie. none look to be unique to my Chromo2 results as far as I can tell. Interpretation is difficult as I have nothing similar (other DF27** Chromo2 results) to compare with yet.

I hear that when instances of SNPs occur in different haplogroups/subclades it can raise questions about their stability and usefulness in defining subclades. Further comparison with Chromo2 results from other DF27, DF27** (Z196-) and Rox2 matches should help. I gather SNPs can occur independently in different subclades, yet still be useful in defining those subclades.

Quay dweller
01-12-2014, 11:58 PM
Did you order L617?

Haven't ordered L617 yet. Decided to go for the Y-refine37to111 first and am awaiting the result. Will probably then go for L617 next, if that still looks the sensible next step.

59497
02-13-2014, 02:56 AM
My Chromo2 results are in for those whom are interested. I have posted the positive results over at the Yahoo board for the DF27 project. They are indicating I am still negative under DF27, although I get the impression the raw file might show something different based on their commentary. I have been unable to locate where I can download the raw file however on the IrelandsDNA site.

59497
02-14-2014, 10:28 PM
Uploaded Chomo2 and Geno 2.0 raw files on the Yahoo board

adtarr
03-28-2014, 10:18 AM
Hi.....I am new to this and found this forum thread doing a Google search. Some of this is like reading a foreign language to me. Can anyone please point me in the right direction for tests to take?

Here are my results from Family Tree DNA.

P312+, DF27+, Z196-, Z225-, Z229-, U106-, U152-, DF19-, L144-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L193-, L2-, L21-, L226-, M153-, M65-

Thanks
Adam

Stephen Parrish
03-28-2014, 11:26 AM
Hi.....I am new to this and found this forum thread doing a Google search. Some of this is like reading a foreign language to me. Can anyone please point me in the right direction for tests to take?

Here are my results from Family Tree DNA.

P312+, DF27+, Z196-, Z225-, Z229-, U106-, U152-, DF19-, L144-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L193-, L2-, L21-, L226-, M153-, M65-

Thanks
Adam

Adam -

If you have not already done so, please join Family Tree DNA's DF27+ and Subclades Project. After you join, administrators and co-administrators of that project can compare your Y-STR results (how many markers have you tested?) with Y-STR results of other project members. If, for example, your results match results of someone known to be a member of a particular DF27+ subgroup, then it might be advisable to concentrate on SNPs in that subgroup. Before proceeding further with testing, you might want to wait until one of two tests are available later this year: Geno 2.0's successor or Family Tree DNA's deep clade test.

Stephen

corner
03-28-2014, 12:37 PM
Hi.....I am new to this and found this forum thread doing a Google search. Some of this is like reading a foreign language to me. Can anyone please point me in the right direction for tests to take?

Here are my results from Family Tree DNA.

P312+, DF27+, Z196-, Z225-, Z229-, U106-, U152-, DF19-, L144-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L193-, L2-, L21-, L226-, M153-, M65-

Thanks
Adam
Hi Adam

I'm Z196- too and DF27** (negative for all currently known SNPs below DF27 itself) after taking BritainsDNA's Chromo2 test.

As Stephen says, STR off-modal patterns can sometimes help inform what to test if others from a cluster have already SNP tested. Members of our DF27** Rox2 cluster had previously found nothing from Geno 2.0. Others are still waiting for Full Genomes results.

Chromo2 is good and tests for many currently known SNPs below DF27, although unfortunately our cluster's ones don't seem to be on the chip. I tested negative for Z196 (BritainsDNA's S355), L617, Z215 (BritainsDNA's S357), Z225 (S225), Z229 (S359), L194, L1231, DF79, DF81, DF83, DF84, L221, L86, L1245 (S1264), L1246 (S1285), L881. It seems like lot is still unknown about DF27, especially if one is in the Z196- half. Hopefully the gaps will be filled in in future updates.

BritainsDNA released a sheet of 2000 anonymized Chromo2 results recently and a large number of DF27 Chromo2 tests look to be still undefined below DF27. FTDNA's 'Big Y' are releasing their first results but it's still early days. Does anyone know if there are signs that Big Y might shed light on the DF27+/Z196- SNP gap?

Chris

razyn
03-28-2014, 01:14 PM
BritainsDNA released a sheet of 2000 anonymized Chromo2 results recently and a large number of DF27 Chromo2 tests look to be still undefined below DF27.

I agree with most of this -- but with respect to the large number (61 out of the 144 examples in those Chromo2 results that were DF27+) that are "still undefined," that only means that Chromo2 didn't define them. I believe a lot of your own negative test results (for SNPs/subclades that we know are under DF27) did not come via Geno2 or Chromo2. Correct me if that impression is mistaken.

If I'm right, many of those 61 belong to clades we know about, but the designers of the Chromo2 chip didn't -- or they knew, but couldn't test them on a chip so those SNPs aren't part of the array.

However, we have gotten many subdivisions of the DF27 phylogeny from these two chips, and stand-alone SNP tests are now available at FTDNA and/or YSEQ for about eight of them. These are all from orders I have placed, since early November, and my orders were not based on Big Y or FGC test results.

Mark D
03-28-2014, 01:37 PM
Does anyone know if there are signs that Big Y might shed light on the DF27+/Z196- SNP gap?

Chris

While still waiting for Big Y results myself, another gentleman who shares L147.3 with me, below L176.2, received his results yesterday, and reported 95 novel variants. So although these are possibly below the DF27+/Z196- gap, it portends good news for those who've tested Big Y and are DF27*.

Stephen Parrish
03-28-2014, 03:27 PM
While still waiting for Big Y results myself, another gentleman who shares L147.3 with me, below L176.2, received his results yesterday, and reported 95 novel variants. So although these are possibly below the DF27+/Z196- gap, it portends good news for those who've tested Big Y and are DF27*.

Mark -

It will be interesting to see how many of the 95 novel variants that you mentioned are upstream from L176.2+.

Stephen

corner
03-28-2014, 03:37 PM
I agree with most of this -- but with respect to the large number (61 out of the 144 examples in those Chromo2 results that were DF27+) that are "still undefined," that only means that Chromo2 didn't define them. I believe a lot of your own negative test results (for SNPs/subclades that we know are under DF27) did not come via Geno2 or Chromo2. Correct me if that impression is mistaken.

If I'm right, many of those 61 belong to clades we know about, but the designers of the Chromo2 chip didn't -- or they knew, but couldn't test them on a chip so those SNPs aren't part of the array.

All my negative DF27 SNPs are from the Chromo2 test and all those SNPs are also negative in the other 60 Chromo2 tests. I had previously tested L21- Z196- and L617- with individual FTDNA SNP tests.

61 of us (in the anonymous 2000 Chromo2 spreadsheet) are 'undefined' within DF27 because there have been no positive currently known SNPs identified for those 61 downstream of DF27 in Chromo2. That is why I'm keen to know what Big Y results might indicate in this big Z196- missing area of DF27. I'd be interested to hear which 'clades we know about' those 61 haplotypes might belong to. They are all negative for these currently known SNPs, below.

Non-Z196 and DF27+ relevant SNPs in Chromo2 are: L617, Z215 (BritainsDNA's S357), Z225 (S225), Z229 (S359), L194, L1231, DF79, DF81, DF83, DF84, L221, L86, L1245 (S1264), L1246 (S1285), L881.

Those SNPs are the currently known ones downstream of DF27 and are on the Chromo2 chip, including their 13 novel bone setter markers S400, S401, S402, S403, S406, S408, S410, S411, S412, S413, S414, S415 and S418 from the Anglesey Bone setter project.

The BritainsDNA names are in brackets, above. I spent a while going through my Chromo2 Raw results a few months ago and posted here and on the DF27 Yahoo Group. No potentially relevant SNPs were left after discounting the many 'phylogenetically unreliable' ones. I've been through the S250 part of the anonymized 2000 Chromo2 file and checked all the above SNPs against all 61 Chromo2 results. They are there and they're all negative.

Mark D
03-29-2014, 09:26 PM
Mark -

It will be interesting to see how many of the 95 novel variants that you mentioned are upstream from L176.2+.

Stephen

He may not check this forum, but he is in the L176.2/sry2627 project, Noble/#171839; we've been in touch for over a year and both David C and Mike W have been in contact with both of us, so you may wish to ask if he's uploaded his results. As I mentioned, we're the only two positive L147.3 that I know about even with an MRCA of many hundreds of years ago.

razyn
04-01-2014, 01:21 PM
I'd be interested to hear which 'clades we know about' those 61 haplotypes might belong to. They are all negative for these currently known SNPs, below.

Non-Z196 and DF27+ relevant SNPs in Chromo2 are: L617, Z215 (BritainsDNA's S357), Z225 (S225), Z229 (S359), L194, L1231, DF79, DF81, DF83, DF84, L221, L86, L1245 (S1264), L1246 (S1285), L881.

I suppose I overstated that -- but I believe when I was looking at this same list (when the 2000 file came out, and before the positions of the S-SNPs were released in a subsequent, smaller file) there was some evidence that the "negative" calls for some of the SNPs you listed were only negative because the chip test doesn't scan in the right direction to detect them reliably. If I'm wrong about that, I won't shoot myself over it.


Those SNPs are the currently known ones downstream of DF27 and are on the Chromo2 chip, including their 13 novel bone setter markers S400, S401, S402, S403, S406, S408, S410, S411, S412, S413, S414, S415 and S418 from the Anglesey Bone setter project.

The first of those 18 Bone setter SNPs (S400) is among those now available from YSEQ, as mentioned but not identified in my post (#24) to which you were responding:


... stand-alone SNP tests are now available at FTDNA and/or YSEQ for about eight of them. These are all from orders I have placed, since early November, and my orders were not based on Big Y or FGC test results.

From FTDNA one may order CTS4065, Z270 and Z295.

From YSEQ one may order those three, plus CTS12074, S11121, S16864, S21184, and S400.

I haven't tried to keep up with any other such newly available SNPs (from either company); these are the ones, all under DF27, that I have requested. At the moment I have no outstanding orders, but I expect I soon shall (since my own sample at FGC is in Batch 5, currently in process of being reporting).

corner
04-01-2014, 06:41 PM
I suppose I overstated that -- but I believe when I was looking at this same list (when the 2000 file came out, and before the positions of the S-SNPs were released in a subsequent, smaller file) there was some evidence that the "negative" calls for some of the SNPs you listed were only negative because the chip test doesn't scan in the right direction to detect them reliably. If I'm wrong about that, I won't shoot myself over it.

The first of those 18 Bone setter SNPs (S400) is among those now available from YSEQ, as mentioned but not identified in my post (#24) to which you were responding:

From FTDNA one may order CTS4065, Z270 and Z295.

From YSEQ one may order those three, plus CTS12074, S11121, S16864, S21184, and S400.

I haven't tried to keep up with any other such newly available SNPs (from either company); these are the ones, all under DF27, that I have requested. At the moment I have no outstanding orders, but I expect I soon shall (since my own sample at FGC is in Batch 5, currently in process of being reporting).

No big deal. SNPs under DF27 seem to have been elusive so far for DF27+/Z196- folks, so it's handy to keep track of which out of the available SNPs one is negative for. Chromo2, the test I took, covers all the currently known ones and their own novel ones, it's the reason I ordered it last July. Other cluster matches previously found no SNPs below P310 with Geno 2.0. 'Currently known' obviously might increase pretty soon though. Maybe Big Y and FG tests will have something soon. Some of the currently DF27** groups appear relatively young (going by STRs) so the early link back to the ancient DF27 founder (a bit like Z196's 'brother/s'?) should be there somewhere.

I have no SNPs identified yet below DF27 in Chromo2, having queried my few remaining potential SNPs with BritainsDNA. Those were removed, being phylogenetically unreliable. The test was still useful because it covered so many known DF27+ Z196- SNPs and enabled them to be discounted.

Interestingly, a few of the other 60 DF27+/Z196- anonymized 2000 Chromo2 kits look to possibly have SNPs unique to them. Some might also be phylogenetically unreliable and perhaps be removed later, they look to be present in unrelated haplogroups, like my removed SNPs were. However, a few kits have possibly unique SNPs, a couple share the same SNPs with each other - that could be promising for them. The SNPs seem not to be found in other haplogroups so far.

Kits 1525 and 1903 share CTS11567+. Kit 1525 is also S25893+, 1903 is negative for S25893.
Kit 1631 and Kit 1730 share S6219+, S7421+, S7432+, S7437+, S6206+, S6218+
Kit 1695 is PF6550+, PF6551+, PF6562+, PF6555+, PF6566+
Kit 1610 is S3634+

I don't know if anyone is researching these..

I guess the FTDNA and YSEQ SNPs you mention above are downstream of already known subclades of DF27, therefore not relevant to DF27**. They are negative in the 61 Chromo2 DF27**, like the others.

razyn
04-01-2014, 10:54 PM
I guess the FTDNA and YSEQ SNPs you mention above are downstream of already known subclades of DF27, therefore not relevant to DF27**. They are negative in the 61 Chromo2 DF27**, like the others.

S400 is relevant to most of the ones called DF27** in our haplogroup project -- who haven't tested it, in that there was no test (apart from Chromo2, which doesn't report to FTDNA projects).

59497
04-26-2014, 09:13 PM
For those who are interested, I have finally given up hope on FTDNA's ability to deliver. I had hoped with the Big Y they would improve their service, but apparently that is not the case. Today, I took advantage of FGC's sale and sent off for a test kit. FTDNA's loss and FGC's gain.

razyn
04-26-2014, 10:31 PM
Some considerable fraction of the followers of this thread are interested in the Rox2 cluster. It, and DF84 (another SNP not included in the list found in this thread's caption), both appear to be under Z2571. A test for Z2571 has been requested at FTDNA, and "Wished" at YSEQ (where I assume it will be available very shortly). So if you are seriously interested in maintaining your double asterisk, those two (plus the Bonesetter SNP S400, which I mentioned earlier) may eventually need to be ordered... somewhere.

There seem to be several parallel candidates for a new SNP to encompass the Rox2 cluster. One possibility is FGC11368, which as far as I know hasn't yet been ordered. But YSEQ will probably be the first place to offer it -- or some equivalent SNP that defines this phylogenetically elusive group.

59497
04-27-2014, 12:39 AM
Razyn,

I do appreciate the feedback. Whether I keep the double asterisk or not is of no consequence to me at this point. I originally started down this path with the hopeful intent of smashing through a paper research brick wall. Obviously I was surprised to find that I appear to have a genetic brick wall too.

I had forgotten about YSEQ. Currently their fees are minimal so may pursue some specific testing as you have suggested above.

Thanks again
James

razyn
04-27-2014, 02:07 AM
Razyn,
I had forgotten about YSEQ. Currently their fees are minimal so may pursue some specific testing as you have suggested above.

Thanks again
James

You're welcome -- and if you test anything there, don't forget to pass along the results to the R1b-DF27 project, via the admins or the Yahoo group. FTDNA won't know about results at YSEQ -- but we have to group people manually anyway, so we can do that with test results that are reported to us, from known and reliable labs.

Stephen Parrish
04-27-2014, 05:18 PM
Razyn,

I do appreciate the feedback. Whether I keep the double asterisk or not is of no consequence to me at this point. I originally started down this path with the hopeful intent of smashing through a paper research brick wall. Obviously I was surprised to find that I appear to have a genetic brick wall too.

I had forgotten about YSEQ. Currently their fees are minimal so may pursue some specific testing as you have suggested above.

Thanks again
James

James -

Please let us know the outcome of your Full Genomes results.

Stephen

59497
04-29-2014, 12:27 AM
Need not worry in that regard. As my results come through, Ill continue to submit accordingly. I have not quit FTDNA altogether, just lost faith in their ability to deliver where DF27 is concerned. It's a shame that they don't recognize their own test results. Makes you wonder how many Geno 2 tests have been miss reported. When I tested Geno 2, they showed me as P312.

rod
04-29-2014, 12:51 AM
Can someone tell me the position and ancestral and derived values for DF83. It's the only one in this list I haven't been able to locate in my FGC file.

razyn
04-29-2014, 12:59 AM
This is what YBrowse says about it (omitting the primers in case they are proprietary, but the site is public):

DF83 Details
Name: DF83
Type: snp
Source: indel
Position: ChrY:16408429..16408430 (+ strand)
Length: 2
ISOGG_haplogroup: R1b (Inv)
YCC_haplogroup: Approx. hg: R-DF27
allele_anc: ins
allele_der: del
comments: downstream of DF27
count_derived: 5
count_tested: 45
mutation: AT to del

ref: Gregory Magoon (2012)
primary_id: 39939
gbrowse_dbid: chrY:database

59497
04-30-2014, 12:37 AM
Razyn,

I was looking through my FTD results and see they have gone and rearranged them. I did test negative for DF84. Having taken both Geno2 and Chromo2, I will have to check the S400, I will check to see if they were covered.

Regards

tewilder
04-30-2014, 01:56 PM
We now have the Wilkinson (f121153) and Butler (f155150) sharing these SNPs from the Big Y: 7401746, 7892132, 8180973, 9172078, 9398436, 9868225, 13654263, 13655586, 13983440, 14002957, 14197141, 14505071, 14876209, 15255773, 16439543, 17335197, 17818968, 18005447, 18033772, 19074078, 20825970, 21159234, 21340968, 21846060, 23476024, 24536377, 27827627

The closest STR matches to Wilkinson are serveral MacCarvilles. The origin of this Tipperary/Durham may be Normandy, the area near Carville. L86.2 still seems private for Wilkinson.

On L86.2 -- it is tested on the Illumina chip used by 23andMe, on the Geno 2 chip, and I think on the Chromo test. I have yet to year of an L86.2 who wasn't a near relative, in spite of all that testing. There is a 3rd cousin tested at FTDNA, but he only did the Family Finder.



In the R1b-DF27_Haplotypes spreadsheet I have Kennedy speculatively assigned to STR signature/variety d-2521. Typically (but not always) these people have 390=25 464d=18 low CDY 481=24 520=21. 481=24 seems to be the most consistent marker with 520=21 a close second.

f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 Ireland
f207164 Cannady R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 UK
fN88747 Dwyer R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland
f138763 Ryan R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Glenough Lower
f198624 Carroll R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Limerick, Stonepark
f73256 Eddye R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 England, South West, Devonshire, Ashburton
f79047 Foley R1b-P312 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f109971 Ryan R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland
f121153 Wilkinson R1b-P312>DF27>L86.2+ d-2521-862 England, North East, Durham, Stockton-on-Tees
f172132 Wilkinson R1b-P312>DF27>L86.2+ d-2521-862 England, North East, Durham, Stockton-on-Tees
f155150 Butler R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f50661 Condra R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f163727 Lee R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland, Leinster, Co. Louth, Dunkalk
f115560 Smith R1b-P312 p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f48197 Dwyer R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Tipperary
f165032 Martin R1b-P312 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
f169776 Cahoo R1b-P312>DF27 d- uas Ireland

It looks like L86.2 is a subclade of this group, but we need to discover an SNP or two for these guys.

The d-2521 group above is probably another very early branch off of DF27 outside of Z196. We need to know about the DF81 and DF83 status, though. This may help us better understand the origins of DF27. There is a heavy frequency of DF27 along the Pyrenees and into Spain, but there are also early branches that don't seem to be found there.

I see this group has a more Irish bent than most DF27 in the Isles.

razyn
04-30-2014, 04:47 PM
Some considerable fraction of the followers of this thread are interested in the Rox2 cluster. It, and DF84 (another SNP not included in the list found in this thread's caption), both appear to be under Z2571.

I have heard from the Krahns, the Z2571 SNP test is now available at YSEQ (and on sale, at the moment). This should be of interest for suspected or confirmed Rox2 cluster members and/or DF84+ people who don't have the Z2571 result already, from some chip test or NextGen sequencing.

59497
09-11-2014, 07:32 PM
Have been off for a bit. Just put in for some additional tests.

Z2571 FTDNA
P312 YSEQ
DF27 YSEQ
S400 YSEQ
FGC11395 & 11397 YSEQ

Still waiting on my FGC results so figured these might cover off some questions in the mean time.

razyn
09-12-2014, 06:55 PM
...

There is one fellow very close to this status.
f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27 DF27+ Z196- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

Coincidentally, the primo example from Mike's first post when this thread began (59497 Kennedy) is one of those I moved into a new group last night, reflecting the fairly recent discovery of A641, a SNP that subsumes L86.2 (which may or may not be "private" to the Wilkinson family anyhow).

Other newish SNPs that affect the relative accuracy of a person's claim to the expensive (if not very valuable) DF27** status include Z2571, Z2552, and A431/A432. [Edit: Only A431 can be tested at FTDNA currently, so I listed it first in the group K description; both are available at YSEQ.] There are more; I just had those in mind because I was moving people around last night into some new groupings (or new descriptions for their old groups). See Ga, Gb, missing I, new K and Ma, different description for M. That may be about it, for this round.

59497
09-12-2014, 10:08 PM
Is anybody offering testing for z2552 or a432 at the moment? I should probably wait to see what FGC shows for results. It's just taking too long. First the spit test, then mid summer they sent a swab test kit.

59497
09-12-2014, 10:33 PM
I just noticed you moved me to group M A641+. Am I missing something or did that show up in Big Y results?

There goes my merit badge. :frusty:

razyn
09-12-2014, 11:20 PM
It's in your column AO, row 71, of a spreadsheet comparison done by David Carlisle for the DF27 Yahoo group, in the Files area. The name of the file is BigY_DF27_P312.csv (and you need to be a member of that Yahoo group to view it). You don't need to view the comparison to see A641 in your own Big Y results, though. I guess it's in your "Novel Variants" file, position is 23476024, mutation T to G.

59497
09-13-2014, 03:37 PM
Thanks for that. I take it nothing has been identified yet under A641?

razyn
09-13-2014, 05:25 PM
Thanks for that. I take it nothing has been identified yet under A641?

L86.2 is below A641, but as far as I know, the positives for that have all (or, both) been members of the Wilkinson family. If it isn't a "private" SNP, we have yet to find their fellow bearers of it. A609 appears to be equivalent with L86.2; and A641 is also known as FGC19598 (not an "equivalent," i.e. a second SNP at the same level, but just another name for the same mutation).

59497
10-08-2014, 09:23 PM
Z2571- according to FTDNA

tewilder
10-09-2014, 12:37 PM
L86.2 is below A641, but as far as I know, the positives for that have all (or, both) been members of the Wilkinson family. If it isn't a "private" SNP, we have yet to find their fellow bearers of it. A609 appears to be equivalent with L86.2; and A641 is also known as FGC19598 (not an "equivalent," i.e. a second SNP at the same level, but just another name for the same mutation).

Keep in mind that L86.2 has been massively tested. It is on the Illumina chip that was long used by 23andMe and on Geno 2.0. (Because they are test for L86 within E). FTDNA also uses the Illumina chip, but the don't report the Y results, and I don't know whether they study them internally. I have never heard of any L86.2 who wasn't a close relative.

59497
10-10-2014, 01:34 AM
If i understand this correctly, YSEQ indicates I am S400-, DF27+, FGC11395-, FGC11397-, P312+

L439 ChrY 22157292 22157292 T-
M10281 ChrY 22157292 22157292 T-
SK2091 ChrY 22157277 22157277 T-
L95 ChrY 22157263 22157263 T-
PF7212 ChrY 22157214 22157214 G-
S24039 ChrY 22157206 22157206 T-
L9 ChrY 22157163 22157163 C-
L173 ChrY 22157021 22157021 C-
L8 ChrY 22157008 22157008 T-
L171 ChrY 22156997 22156997 T-
L7 ChrY 22156992 22156992 T-
Z3849 ChrY 22062985 22062985 A-
M7376 ChrY 22062818 22062818 C-
S400 ChrY 22062818 22062818 C-
M9347 ChrY 22062727 22062727 T+
FGC1180 ChrY 21380376 21380376 A-
DF27 ChrY 21380200 21380200 A+
S250 ChrY 21380200 21380200 A+
FGC11395 ChrY 14861066 14861066 C-
FGC11397 ChrY 7332619 7332619 G-

ximocarr
10-13-2014, 11:32 AM
Z 2571 - by Yseq
DF 83- by FTDNA

59497
02-24-2015, 03:01 AM
I've uploaded my FGC results to the Yahoo boards.

Earl Davis
12-20-2015, 02:39 PM
A new result from CRUMP takes the number of ZZ12* on the Big Tree back to 12.

Earl.

razyn
12-20-2015, 05:04 PM
A new result from CRUMP takes the number of ZZ12* on the Big Tree back to 12.

My DF27 project group Ea usually tracks fairly closely with Alex's ZZ12* -- not exactly, because I don't have 1kG samples, and he only has well-sequenced ones (and not quite all of those, at any given moment). Anyway N8921 Crump has Z2573, I guess that’s now visible (a "Known SNP") because a DF27 SNP pack has identified it in 75127. They are already in my group K; Crump has been since Dec. 4th. And that isn't ZZ12*. If Crump’s Z2573 turns out to be a different instance of a recurrent SNP, I suppose we’ll hear about that pretty soon, and Alex and I will once again agree.

Also, I had put 235301 Heggebø in group Ea for a while, but moved him to group Pc after he showed an S7432+ (he isn't on the Big Tree yet, but that SNP is).

There may be other such cases. I moved about 80 people around in the past few days, rewrote a few captions, and created maybe four new project subgroups. Ph and Pi are among them. In some cases I have a “group” with one member, but the other(s) are on the Big Tree or somewhere else I can see. The 1kG samples don’t post to FTDNA projects, but they do confirm the SNPs of other people who are in our projects.

REWM
12-20-2015, 05:54 PM
I was in contact with Crump and yesterday asked him to add to Alex's site. He is also waiting on YFull to analyze his Bam file which is due back mid Jan.If his Big Y is anything like the ones I have seen for Z2573+ men. There will be no calls for Z2573 and many of the other downstream SNPs or just low reads. Their is one 1KG man with no known downstream SNPs so Crump would not be a exception.