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Mr.G
09-28-2018, 09:45 PM
Sorry if this is a very newbie question, but I was wondering why my very Hungarian paternal line has an un-Hungarian haplogroup? As far as I know, my father's family is all Hungarian for multiple generations. Please excuse my ignorance, but is it possible N-M2783 came to Hungary with Arpad and the conquerors? Or was there some historic migration out of the Baltic states to Hungary? Thanks for any thoughts! Btw, N-M2783 was assigned to me via 23andMe V5.

parastais
09-29-2018, 10:37 AM
Any chance you are CTS8173?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS8173/
It has a subbranch Y6075, estimated age 200 BCE, that is present in Slovaks, Czechs and Poles.
Other brother subbranches being present in Baltics.

Michał
09-29-2018, 12:28 PM
Btw, N-M2783 was assigned to me via 23andMe V5.
You need to determine your much more specific subclade under M2783 in order to get a better idea on how your patrilineage landed in Hungary.
For example, in case you belong to N-Y6075, a subclade mentioned by parastais, then it is quite likely that your paternal ancestors came to Hungary (or generally to Central Europe) with the Early Slavs.



https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS8173/
It has a subbranch Y6075, estimated age 200 BCE, that is present in Slovaks, Czechs and Poles.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts&p=120630&viewfull=1#post120630

Mr.G
09-29-2018, 02:27 PM
Thanks so much parastais. What would be the appropriate level test to get from FTDNA to determine my subbranch?

Mr.G
09-29-2018, 02:36 PM
Thanks Michal. Do you know the level of test at FTDNA that will provide the subclade? I've asked both you and parastais to make a recommendation. Don't wanna brake the bank, but also would like to explore this further and contribute to the knowledge about the distribution of this subclade.

MacUalraig
09-29-2018, 03:26 PM
You either need to do a SNP pack or the equivalent N1a panel at YSEQ. FTDNA STR tests are a different type of test except they can give you a high level haplogroup to get you started.

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=18382

I'm not a hg N expert but typically the 23andMe goes lower down the tree than the basic haplogroup you get with an STR test. Hope this doesn't sound too confusing but we get queries virtually every day about this concept.

Michał
09-29-2018, 03:55 PM
Thanks Michal. Do you know the level of test at FTDNA that will provide the subclade? I've asked both you and parastais to make a recommendation. Don't wanna brake the bank, but also would like to explore this further and contribute to the knowledge about the distribution of this subclade.
Well, it all really depends on how much you can spend on it. The best option is of course Big Y500 at FTDNA (or any similar Y-NGS test elsewhere). In case you cannot afford it, I would strongly suggest the N1a-VL29 panel at YSEQ for 88$:
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=18382&osCsid=25d3abecc49ec2db49a9e7810d0e4749

The advantage of Big Y500 is not only that you will get a much more detailed SNP report (with some previously unknown, or "private", SNPs included), but also the fact that you will get a full 111 Y-STR haplotype that should allow you to search for close and distant STR matches among those FTDNA customers who have not been tested for any relevant SNPs.

Mr.G
09-29-2018, 05:25 PM
I will do either the N1a-VL29 panel from YSEQ or the Big Y500, I just need to familiarize myself with this type of testing and all the terminology involved so I can understand my results. Whichever test I do, I will post the results here in the N forum. Thanks for all the guidance it has been very helpful!

Mr.G
03-21-2019, 06:57 PM
You need to determine your much more specific subclade under M2783 in order to get a better idea on how your patrilineage landed in Hungary.
For example, in case you belong to N-Y6075, a subclade mentioned by parastais, then it is quite likely that your paternal ancestors came to Hungary (or generally to Central Europe) with the Early Slavs.


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts&p=120630&viewfull=1#post120630

Hey Michal, I have followed your advice to purchase N1a-VL29 panel at YSEQ, and my order is currently processing. So far, and my final clade has not yet been reached, I am N-Y6077+. So as you suggested many months ago it does appear I will end up being part of the small group of Slavic speaking central Europeans with N1c, even though it appears I will be one of the few (or only) Hungarians. When my final clade is determined I will open a thread to discuss. Thanks for suggesting I investigate this I am finding it most interesting.

Adalbertus
10-31-2021, 02:04 PM
Hi Mr. G :)
accidentally I just found out that you are one of a few people I know who are linked with Y17696 hp.
Great to hear that. I'm also N-Y17696 YSEQ :)
Tried to send you PM but I'm disallowed because of lack of 5 posts :)

Wojtek from Warsaw

Mr.G
10-31-2021, 04:14 PM
Hi Mr. G :)
accidentally I just found out that you are one of a few people I know who are linked with Y17696 hp.
Great to hear that. I'm also N-Y17696 YSEQ :)
Tried to send you PM but I'm disallowed because of lack of 5 posts :)

Wojtek from Warsaw

Fantastic, thanks for reaching out! You are the first person I have met who shares this subclade.

My great-grandfather was a Hungarian born in Ungvar (now western Ukraine), so it is pretty surprising to be N1a, in my case, as it is at .5% frequency in Hungarians, or something like that.

From what I have seen, our specific subclade is most common in Poland, so in your case I assume it was not as much a surprise for you? Still quite rare overall for Poland, I believe.

Another interesting thing is that I have almost as many Polish matches as I do Hungarian on my 23andMe relatives list (I have no known Polish ancestry). However I have only one N1a match, he does list Ukraine as a place of origin for one grandparent, and he has a Polish surname. I did reach out to him but did not hear back, unfortunately.

Adalbertus
10-31-2021, 04:30 PM
Great to hear from you.
According to my genealogical research my oldest known ancestors came from Wolyn and Red Rus area (between Lviv and Polonne), oldest known ancestor was born around 1700. Today it's Ukraine but in XVIIIth cent it was obviously Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. In the second part of XVIIIc (probably historical events like wars, partitions of Poland) they moved to very western part of Poland near Silesian border. Do you know the name of your oldest ancestor?

Mr.G
10-31-2021, 05:29 PM
Great to hear from you.
According to my genealogical research my oldest known ancestors came from Wolyn and Red Rus area (between Lviv and Polonne), oldest known ancestor was born around 1700. Today it's Ukraine but in XVIIIth cent it was obviously Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. In the second part of XVIIIc (probably historical events like wars, partitions of Poland) they moved to very western part of Poland near Silesian border. Do you know the name of your oldest ancestor?

So regionally we more or less match on our paternal lines (near Transcarpathia/Western Ukraine), this is very cool.

Unfortunately my great-grandfather from Ungvar is my oldest known ancestor. I have tried to do research on him via the Family Search website, also MyHeritage's database, the Radix forum. Sadly, I have only found two references to him pre-arrival to the US (one being his immigration), and nothing about his parents. I do have a few census forms and a draft card after his arrival here, but that's it and they don't add any info about his ancestors. So he remains mostly a mystery to me.

Adalbertus
10-31-2021, 06:48 PM
Understood.
It's interesting because we can speak of more or less similar area.
Off course it's always risky because both families could come into that land around XVI, XV, XIII etc. but... we can say that both of us, Y17696 had ancestors in the similar region.
Cool :)

Mr.G
10-31-2021, 07:42 PM
Understood.
It's interesting because we can speak of more or less similar area.
Off course it's always risky because both families could come into that land around XVI, XV, XIII etc. but... we can say that both of us, Y17696 had ancestors in the similar region.
Cool :)

If I find out any more, I will most definitely let you know :)

Adalbertus
11-01-2021, 03:52 PM
Thanks!
Btw. I can see that you are much longer in the subject so I would like to ask you a question linked with our 17696 which seems to be the most "Slavic" and "Polish" group in whole N. According to your knowledge and research - did you find any reasons, descriptions why this Baltic branch twisted into "Slavic"?

Mr.G
11-02-2021, 01:07 PM
Thanks!
Btw. I can see that you are much longer in the subject so I would like to ask you a question linked with our 17696 which seems to be the most "Slavic" and "Polish" group in whole N. According to your knowledge and research - did you find any reasons, descriptions why this Baltic branch twisted into "Slavic"?

These 2 quotes, from forum member Michal, are the best explanations that I have seen so far:

"For example, in case you belong to N-Y6075, a subclade mentioned by parastais, then it is quite likely that your paternal ancestors came to Hungary (or generally to Central Europe) with the Early Slavs."

"Subclade Y6075 is the only subclade that is indeed associated mostly with Slavs, as it includes lineages originating from Poland (4-5), Czech Republic (4), Slovakia (2), Lithuania (1) and Germany (1). Please note that this subclade is not seen among the Eastern and Southern Slavs, so it probably was absent among the Proto-Slavs. Most likely, N1c-Y6075 corresponds to a West Baltic grouping that migrated southward (in the late 6th or early 7th century) and was assimilated by the Early Slavs expanding from east (Belarus/NW Ukraine) to west (Poland, Slovakia, Bohemia). Another possibility is that the Y6075 lineage came to Poland directly from Sweden, either in the Pre-Slavic or Early Slavic period.

In the Polish project, I found 50 Slavic N1c-M2783 lineages/families with known (or strongly predicted) Y6075 status, and only 8 of them were Y6075+, so when assuming that the remaining ones were of relatively late Baltic origin, one would need to admit that the vast majority of Slavic N1c-M2783 are descendants of Old Prussians, Lithuanians, Latvians and maybe of some smaller Baltic tribes that went extinct in the Middle Ages."

Of course he was referring to Y6075, but because we are downstream of that, the same theory applies.

Now in my case, there is an extra step - Maygarization. So, in theory my paternal line was Baltic, then Slavic, and finally, somewhere along the way, Magyar (I'd love to know when and how this occurred).

An interesting thing that I found, on Wikipedia, is this:

"According to a study by Pamjav, the area of Bodrogköz suggested to be a population isolate found an elevated frequency of Haplogroup N: R1a-M458 (20.4%), I2a1-P37 (19%), R1a-Z280 (14.3%), and E1b-M78 (10.2%). Various R1b-M343 subgroups accounted for 15% of the Bodrogköz population. Haplogroup N1c-Tat covered 6.2% of the lineages, but most of it belonged to the N1c-VL29 subgroup, which is more frequent among Balto-Slavic speaking than Finno-Ugric speaking peoples. Other haplogroups had frequencies of less than 5%.

Here is a map of Bodrogköz, it is on the Hungarian border with Western Ukraine! So this may very well be a small grouping of Y17696 Hungarians very close to where my great grandfather was born.

https://i.imgur.com/d4kpNpds.png

-----------------------

If you have any additional theories/ideas about Y17696, I'd love to hear them! :)

Adalbertus
11-02-2021, 02:46 PM
Thank you! Before I will go through your infos - did your ancestors name sounded "Slavic" like? Maybe there is a Polish substitute for Magyar name and it can open you new directions.

Mr.G
11-02-2021, 04:43 PM
Thank you! Before I will go through your infos - did your ancestors name sounded "Slavic" like? Maybe there is a Polish substitute for Magyar name and it can open you new directions.

Great thought but no, it's a Hungarian place name. In other words, it's the name of a Hungarian city.

Adalbertus
11-02-2021, 09:40 PM
Got it. According for instance to Polish genealogy, names coming from name of cities suggested quite fresh appear (in Poland XVIII-XIX Jews for instance) or nobility (name of the city +ski ex. Radom-Radomski).
Back to 17696 - there is a text, not exactly about that line, but quite close connected. Interesting one.

HERE (https://www.beloveshkin.com/2016/02/prus.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR0i_mGTLZYY8-UdxdJ_3XT8zFC_lBIkvR7NHCSeuNrat9CrOu-gmcxLJNE)

Mr.G
11-03-2021, 12:55 AM
Got it. According for instance to Polish genealogy, names coming from name of cities suggested quite fresh appear (in Poland XVIII-XIX Jews for instance) or nobility (name of the city +ski ex. Radom-Radomski).
Back to 17696 - there is a text, not exactly about that line, but quite close connected. Interesting one.

HERE (https://www.beloveshkin.com/2016/02/prus.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR0i_mGTLZYY8-UdxdJ_3XT8zFC_lBIkvR7NHCSeuNrat9CrOu-gmcxLJNE)

Yes indeed, I also suspect that the nature of my surname denotes a more recent arrival to Hungary. It would be nice if it was a noble name, but alas my great-grandfather was a coppersmith, not royalty ;)

Very interesting article I enjoyed it, thank you for linking that!

parastais
11-03-2021, 06:55 AM
The TMRCA of N-Y6075 was quite old. 200 BCE.
So, maybe it went
Baltic Finnic - Baltic - Slavic - Hungarian
Or directly
Baltic Finnic - Slavic - Hungarian

Because there are almost no Balts under Y6075.

Adalbertus
11-03-2021, 07:43 AM
Yes indeed, I also suspect that the nature of my surname denotes a more recent arrival to Hungary. It would be nice if it was a noble name, but alas my great-grandfather was a coppersmith, not royalty ;)

Very interesting article I enjoyed it, thank you for linking that!

Well to be honest nobility and royality it's not the same and you have to remember that if we are speaking about Polish Commonwealth for instance, it was quite often (really tragic history) when former noble families became craftsman (lucky case) or peasants or even beggars. There were hundreds of very poor noble families who had to change their way of life, places, specially in that very turbulent part of country.

Off course I do not speak about your family case (I know nothing) but we can say that your ancestors could be rather free, mobile people who could travel from town to town (maybe even border). Maybe they worked for some generations in the town they were named of later on, or it was just one person who came to another place just from that town. It's fresh name I suppose (around XIX cent?).
Coppersmith quite often were gipsies but we know that it's not our case :) The end of that profession started while fabric made items just flooded traditional market. XIX cent. That could push your ancestors to move to the Promise Land :)
Here (https://rme.cbr.net.pl/index.php/kultura-i-tradycje-ludowe/981-kotlarze-zapomniani-mistrzowie-ksztaltowan-naczyn-metalowych) you have some knowledge about traditional coppersmiths in Polish.

Adalbertus
11-03-2021, 07:56 AM
The TMRCA of N-Y6075 was quite old. 200 BCE.
So, maybe it went
Baltic Finnic - Baltic - Slavic - Hungarian
Or directly
Baltic Finnic - Slavic - Hungarian

Because there are almost no Balts under Y6075.


It's interesting because Y17696 is mainly "Polish" and I'm curious what could be the time and reason why it goes like that...
While we have no Balts under Y6075 as you mentioned, it seems that migration can have really ancient roots.

parastais
11-03-2021, 09:30 AM
It's interesting because Y17696 is mainly "Polish" and I'm curious what could be the time and reason why it goes like that...
While we have no Balts under Y6075 as you mentioned, it seems that migration can have really ancient roots.
There is a rumour of N found in Maslomecz Poland, early centuries AD. Of course, nothing much more is known. If he turns out Y6705, then that would (partially) solve it.

/It seems to be some Gothic (trade?) village, with N being just one of many heterogenous samples.

Adalbertus
11-03-2021, 10:03 AM
There is a rumour of N found in Maslomecz Poland, early centuries AD. Of course, nothing much more is known. If he turns out Y6705, then that would (partially) solve it.

/It seems to be some Gothic (trade?) village, with N being just one of many heterogenous samples.

Wow. It was like 200 years of existance of that village so it can be really interesting case. Thanks.

Mr.G
11-03-2021, 11:58 AM
The TMRCA of N-Y6075 was quite old. 200 BCE.
So, maybe it went
Baltic Finnic - Baltic - Slavic - Hungarian
Or directly
Baltic Finnic - Slavic - Hungarian

Because there are almost no Balts under Y6075.

Here is the current tree, indeed heavily Slavic Y6075+

https://i.imgur.com/8hOVwEN.jpg

Mr.G
11-03-2021, 12:04 PM
Well to be honest nobility and royality it's not the same and you have to remember that if we are speaking about Polish Commonwealth for instance, it was quite often (really tragic history) when former noble families became craftsman (lucky case) or peasants or even beggars. There were hundreds of very poor noble families who had to change their way of life, places, specially in that very turbulent part of country.

Off course I do not speak about your family case (I know nothing) but we can say that your ancestors could be rather free, mobile people who could travel from town to town (maybe even border). Maybe they worked for some generations in the town they were named of later on, or it was just one person who came to another place just from that town. It's fresh name I suppose (around XIX cent?).
Coppersmith quite often were gipsies but we know that it's not our case :) The end of that profession started while fabric made items just flooded traditional market. XIX cent. That could push your ancestors to move to the Promise Land :)
Here (https://rme.cbr.net.pl/index.php/kultura-i-tradycje-ludowe/981-kotlarze-zapomniani-mistrzowie-ksztaltowan-naczyn-metalowych) you have some knowledge about traditional coppersmiths in Polish.

Wow, I did not know that about coppersmiths, that makes sense that the end of the profession could have triggered my great grandfather to leave Hungary. Unfortunately, his vision was heavily damaged as well, I'm told it was because he worked at times (maybe all the time) welding without eye protection.

He was born in 1874, so the surname probably goes back to at least his father, so I assume back to the 1850's.

Thank you again for all of your insights.

parastais
11-03-2021, 12:48 PM
Here is the current tree, indeed heavily Slavic Y6075+

https://i.imgur.com/8hOVwEN.jpg

We share a common ancestor 300 BCE, but then one brother or his clan (nowadays known as Y6075+) apparently went South (since yeah, it is rare in modern Balts) and other brothers stayed in Baltics (Z16980 is big in Latvians, and also according to Dunkel in Estonians. Not so much in Lithuanians, where other sub branches are way more popular).

Adalbertus
11-03-2021, 02:14 PM
We share a common ancestor 300 BCE, but then one brother or his clan (nowadays known as Y6075+) apparently went South (since yeah, it is rare in modern Balts) and other brothers stayed in Baltics (Z16980 is big in Latvians, and also according to Dunkel in Estonians. Not so much in Lithuanians, where other sub branches are way more popular).

It's interesting why they had moved south from Baltic (marriages?) and more, why they didn't move any further south like/with Goths for instance.
Maybe it's because they mixed with Slavic tribes at once... I'm anthropologist not archeologist so my knowledge is poor and basic at this matter.

parastais
11-03-2021, 03:47 PM
It's interesting why they had moved south from Baltic (marriages?) and more, why they didn't move any further south like/with Goths for instance.
Maybe it's because they mixed with Slavic tribes at once... I'm anthropologist not archeologist so my knowledge is poor and basic at this matter.
No idea.
It was just one man 200 BCE, so anything goes. He could be a trader who slept with some Slavic girl on his journey. Or it was a clan that got destroyed by enemies but managed to escape into Poland. Or it was a Baltic tribe that assimilated Y6075(?) guys, but then itself got assimilated into expanding Slavs.

But more seems like a founder effect, because like I wrote Z16980 is mostly Letto-Estonian, not Lithuanian which is geographically closer to Poland. So, perhaps origin is a trader/mercenary from Daugava river trade route who ended up in Slavic lands. If so, we may never find out.
If instead it was a whole tribe/clan moving, then we might get lucky and find them in ancient DNA.

Edit:
But - same rumour (if my memory serves me right) was that this Maslomecz guy autosomally was closest to modern Latvians (so a Balt with Finnic vibe). If so, he might indeed be the answer. But I am not confident on quality of that rumour, let's wait for thsoe samples to be published and then find out.

Adalbertus
11-03-2021, 04:26 PM
No idea.
It was just one man 200 BCE, so anything goes. He could be a trader who slept with some Slavic girl on his journey. Or it was a clan that got destroyed by enemies but managed to escape into Poland. Or it was a Baltic tribe that assimilated Y6075(?) guys, but then itself got assimilated into expanding Slavs.

But more seems like a founder effect, because like I wrote Z16980 is mostly Letto-Estonian, not Lithuanian which is geographically closer to Poland. So, perhaps origin is a trader/mercenary from Daugava river trade route who ended up in Slavic lands. If so, we may never find out.
If instead it was a whole tribe/clan moving, then we might get lucky and find them in ancient DNA.

Edit:
But - same rumour (if my memory serves me right) was that this Maslomecz guy autosomally was closest to modern Latvians (so a Balt with Finnic vibe). If so, he might indeed be the answer. But I am not confident on quality of that rumour, let's wait for thsoe samples to be published and then find out.

Thank you for your answers. It makes a lot clearer whole subject for me. As I mentioned, I'm not specialist (as anthropologist its the culture what I'am really interested in) and for some time I couldn't understand what gives me knowledge that I'm Y17696. Now because of your explications I can understand much more. The light of real narration appears. I know it's only hypothese, but always close to real life than numbers.
So in general - if this branch came to "Poland" around 200BCE by the time of (for instance first Piast) - could be 100% Slavic from cultural and "ideological" point of view.
And if I'm right, that also means that Y17696 has nothing to do with XIII-XIV Prussian "refugees" of Teutonic Wars time.

parastais
11-03-2021, 05:43 PM
Thank you for your answers. It makes a lot clearer whole subject for me. As I mentioned, I'm not specialist (as anthropologist its the culture what I'am really interested in) and for some time I couldn't understand what gives me knowledge that I'm Y17696. Now because of your explications I can understand much more. The light of real narration appears. I know it's only hypothese, but always close to real life than numbers.
So in general - if this branch came to "Poland" around 200BCE by the time of (for instance first Piast) - could be 100% Slavic from cultural and "ideological" point of view.
And if I'm right, that also means that Y17696 has nothing to do with XIII-XIV Prussian "refugees" of Teutonic Wars time.
Yeap, Prussian surnames seems to be under Z16975 branch of L1025 (brother of “Latvian” Z16980, uncle of “West Slavic” Z16980->Y6075).
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10956-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians

By time of Piasts I give 99% they (Y6075) were Slavs already for a long time.

Adalbertus
11-03-2021, 10:23 PM
Yeap, Prussian surnames seems to be under Z16975 branch of L1025 (brother of “Latvian” Z16980, uncle of “West Slavic” Z16980->Y6075).
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10956-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians

By time of Piasts I give 99% they (Y6075) were Slavs already for a long time.

Thank you! Btw. I found Masłomęcz DNA resources from 2019. HERE (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332781862_Goth_migration_induced_changes_in_the_ma trilineal_genetic_structure_of_the_central-east_European_population) In fact there is one sample of female N1a1a1a2. It this what you did mention about?

parastais
11-04-2021, 07:12 AM
If about mtDNA then this
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=781791&viewfull=1#post781791

This in general:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=786205&viewfull=1#post786205


But about YDNA then this:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=780225&viewfull=1#post780225
And here comes the n guy:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=768824&viewfull=1#post768824
https://slavicorigins.blogspot.com/2021/04/wielbark-culture-y-dna.html?m=1
Here low quality sample, but likely Baltic:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=769008&viewfull=1#post769008

parastais
11-04-2021, 07:15 AM
But:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=769262&viewfull=1#post769262

So, bad quality and might be noise. That is why waiting for official info.

Adalbertus
11-04-2021, 09:06 AM
But:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=769262&viewfull=1#post769262

So, bad quality and might be noise. That is why waiting for official info.

Thank you sir! Fascinating stuff. It's amazing, but just few months ago I was visiting National Museum in Lublin where I had chance to stand face to face to the reconstruction of the Masłomęcz grave and some archeological treasures. Who would think that maybe I'm looking at the ancestors graveyard and stuff ;) When there will be some more infos about that N samples please do remember this thread :)