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R.Rocca
10-05-2018, 06:00 PM
I checked Scythian sample scy009 (768-431 BC) from Starosillya, Cherkasy, Ukraine and he is P312+ > U152? > L2+ > FGC59563+ 22304007(C/T)+ DF90-, therefore breaking up the DF90 cluster.

Here is the updated ancient DNA U152+ map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&usp=sharing

A very nice summary level write-up on the Scythians:

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/introducing-the-scythians/

MitchellSince1893
10-05-2018, 06:32 PM
I checked Scythian sample scy009 (768-431 BC) from Starosillya, Cherkasy, Ukraine and he is P312+ > U152? > L2+ > FGC59563+ 22304007(C/T)+ DF90-, therefore breaking up the DF90 cluster.

Here is the updated ancient DNA U152+ map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&usp=sharing

A very nice summary level write-up on the Scythians:

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/introducing-the-scythians/

Just sent you PM on the baffling absence of L2>Z49 in ancient samples so far. Hopefully that will change soon. Thanks for doing the analysis on this.

Osiris
10-05-2018, 06:36 PM
Nice! Would the best way to determine how far down he is from the new split in DF90 be looking at his results and finding novel variants or using age estimates for DF90 and his carbon dated age?

It sure would be neat if this guy could be incorporated into some of the public trees out there. Seems like that would be something that could really stir up people's imagination and interest.

"We predict Mr. Scythian is your 13th cousin 74 times removed."

MitchellSince1893
10-05-2018, 06:45 PM
I checked Scythian sample scy009 (768-431 BC) from Starosillya, Cherkasy, Ukraine and he is P312+ > U152? > L2+ > FGC59563+ 22304007(C/T)+ DF90-, therefore breaking up the DF90 cluster.

Here is the updated ancient DNA U152+ map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&usp=sharing

A very nice summary level write-up on the Scythians:

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/introducing-the-scythians/

Ok so he's at least on my branch of L2 (if you count L2 > Z41150 like we do in the FTDNA U152 project and Alex Williams does on his tree).

L2 >Z41150 has these subclades

Z41150>A6454
Z41150> BY4245
Z41150>FGC22501
Z41150>FGC59563 (our Scythian sample scy009 (768-431 BC) from Starosillya, Cherkasy, Ukraine)
Z41150>S1567
Z41150>Y11667
Z41150>Y61135
Z41150>Y86601
Z41150>Z49 (My peeps)

Z41150 is a rather "bushy" part of the tree.

R.Rocca
10-05-2018, 06:55 PM
Ok so he's at least on my branch of L2 (if you count L2 > Z41150 like we do in the FTDNA U152 project and Alex Williams does on his tree).

L2 >Z41150 has these subclades is

Z41150>A6454
Z41150> BY4245
Z41150>DF90
Z41150>FGC22501
Z41150>FGC59563 (our Scythian sample scy009 (768-431 BC) from Starosillya, Cherkasy, Ukraine)
Z41150>S1567
Z41150>Y11667
Z41150>Y61135
Z41150>Y86601
Z41150>Z49 (My peeps)

Z41150 is a rather "bushy" part of the tree.

Just a slight correction: DF90 now drops one level below FGC59563 on your list.

R.Rocca
10-05-2018, 06:57 PM
Deleted

MitchellSince1893
10-05-2018, 06:59 PM
Just a slight correction: DF90 now drops one level below FGC59563 on your list.

Fixed thanks.

Makes the Horse and Arrows on the U152 logo/Shield even more relevant

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/xscythian_horsemanNEW1500_black.jpg.pagespeed.ic.4 XfHG34jFM.jpg

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/xGAA36061-archers-BM-19090617.2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.R-HjF_o3e8.webp

MitchellSince1893
10-05-2018, 07:37 PM
Alex Williams has the median age for Z41150 at 2340 BC, 95% confidence interval is 2836 BC to 1896 BC.

The FGC59563 block median age is 2016 BC, 95% confidence interval is 2642 BC to 1341 BC

http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php

R.Rocca
10-05-2018, 07:39 PM
Just sent you PM on the baffling absence of L2>Z49 in ancient samples so far. Hopefully that will change soon. Thanks for doing the analysis on this.

I still think the Upper Rhine will have a lot of Z49 (and don't forget Z367).

Ravai
10-05-2018, 08:13 PM
Ok so he's at least on my branch of L2 (if you count L2 > Z41150 like we do in the FTDNA U152 project and Alex Williams does on his tree).

L2 >Z41150 has these subclades

Z41150>A6454
Z41150> BY4245
Z41150>FGC22501
Z41150>FGC59563 (our Scythian sample scy009 (768-431 BC) from Starosillya, Cherkasy, Ukraine)
Z41150>S1567
Z41150>Y11667
Z41150>Y61135
Z41150>Y86601
Z41150>Z49 (My peeps)

Z41150 is a rather "bushy" part of the tree.

I think with time BY4245 will be divided into BY3485 and others.

R.Rocca
10-05-2018, 10:20 PM
I think with time BY4245 will be divided into BY3485 and others.

It looks like it already is: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R

Ravai
10-06-2018, 07:30 AM
Under L2> BY3485 we have one person from Lebanon. We thought that I could get with the Romans, but now that we have seen the Scythian Scy009 who is the son of L2 and brother of BY3485 ... could he have traveled with the Scythians to that area?

26516

R.Rocca
10-06-2018, 11:04 AM
Under L2> BY3485 we have one person from Lebanon. We thought that I could get with the Romans, but now that we have seen the Scythian Scy009 who is the son of L2 and brother of BY3485 ... could he have traveled with the Scythians to that area?

26516

The Scythians lived a nomadic life very similar to the Yamnaya. L2 survived on the steppe and is represented very well in modern Bashkirs. That is different than a single person in Lebanon which was not likely related to a large scale migration. I would say that a Roman or Crusader or trader origin is much more plausible for the Lebanese sample.

Romilius
10-07-2018, 01:18 PM
The Scythians lived a nomadic life very similar to the Yamnaya. L2 survived on the steppe and is represented very well in modern Bashkirs. That is different than a single person in Lebanon which was not likely related to a large scale migration. I would say that a Roman or Crusader or trader origin is much more plausible for the Lebanese sample.

Interesting... another L2 in ancient remains. But... is also U152 or L2 the Bell Beaker sample from Parma, I2478?

R.Rocca
10-07-2018, 03:04 PM
Interesting... another L2 in ancient remains. But... is also U152 or L2 the Bell Beaker sample from Parma, I2478?

The sample is P312+ but no call on U152 or DF27. For U152 subclades, he was L2- Z193- ZZ38-.

Romilius
10-07-2018, 05:08 PM
The sample is P312+ but no call on U152 or DF27. For U152 subclades, he was L2- Z193- ZZ38-.

Thank you, so also Z36-?

Z36 is my favourite clade in R1b: a mystery because it hasn't popped up yet.

R.Rocca
10-07-2018, 05:44 PM
Thank you, so also Z36-?

Z36 is my favourite clade in R1b: a mystery because it hasn't popped up yet.

No reads on Z36 nor Z56, so it is most likely one of those two. FYI, there is a Lombard Z36+ sample, but obviously much later: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&ll=47.29327999666383%2C10.61453983740239&z=6

Romilius
10-07-2018, 07:23 PM
No reads on Z36 nor Z56, so it is most likely one of those two. FYI, there is a Lombard Z36+ sample, but obviously much later: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&ll=47.29327999666383%2C10.61453983740239&z=6

The Z36 sample from Szolad was said to be instead DF27 and that those Z36 subclades calls were wrong.

R.Rocca
10-08-2018, 12:20 AM
The Z36 sample from Szolad was said to be instead DF27 and that those Z36 subclades calls were wrong.

Please point me to the source and I will remove it from my map. Thanks!

EDIT: Just found Alex Williamson's analysis, which I trust more than the authors. See here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13543-Understanding-6th-Century-Barbarian-Social-Organization-and-Migration-through-Paleoge&p=363067&viewfull=1#post363067

I removed it from the U152 ancient DNA map.

Tomenable
10-08-2018, 03:38 AM
Actually, Starosillya is located in the area of Chernoles culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture

^^^ It is identified with "Scythian Farmers" from Herodotus:

http://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Eastern_and_Central_Europe_around_750_BC.png

Location of SCY009 compared to the archeological cultures:

https://i.imgur.com/ukATNhu.png

Other possibilities:

The Βουδίνοι / Budínoi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

And the Νευροί / Neuri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri

=====

Similarity map for SCY009 based on Eurogenes K36 results:

https://i.postimg.cc/370qtT17/Screen_Hunter_2578_Oct._05_12.57.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1chkqvZ.jpg

rawnr
02-23-2019, 03:31 PM
Thanks for the info! I found on the map a DNA sample named 6DRIF-22 Romano-Briton L2+ FGC22501+
I too am L2+ FGC22501+
I love this stuff!
I'm searching for male RHODES falling deeper in my string: R-L2+ R-FGC22501+ R-Y37744+ R-BY64614+ R-BY159214+