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saygun
10-07-2018, 09:10 AM
Hello,

I got my yDNA result from National Geographic Helix 2.0 a month ago after which I have been researching what my haplogroup meant and how I could go further to find my terminal SNP. My test results show that my haplogroup is R-L23. I can see that there are branches of L23 yet I do not know if I have been tested with those. Do you know if Helix tests for Z2103? What do you advice for further testing, do you think an STR test makes sense now?
I am from Çankırı, Turkey which is located in middle of Turkey. From records, we know that we've been in this city for about two centuries with no non-Turkish speaking descendance.

Joe B
10-07-2018, 06:09 PM
Hello,

I got my yDNA result from National Geographic Helix 2.0 a month ago after which I have been researching what my haplogroup meant and how I could go further to find my terminal SNP. My test results show that my haplogroup is R-L23. I can see that there are branches of L23 yet I do not know if I have been tested with those. Do you know if Helix tests for Z2103? What do you advice for further testing, do you think an STR test makes sense now?
I am from Çankırı, Turkey which is located in middle of Turkey. From records, we know that we've been in this city for about two centuries with no non-Turkish speaking descendance.
Hello saygun. Welcome to the Anthrogenica forum. It's difficult to tell what haplogroup you belong to from National Geographic Helix 2.0 results. Knowing which SNPs you are negative for can be just as important as the positive ones. The other problem is they are way behind in developing the basal haplogroup branches that you most certainly belong to. I'm thinking that you are probably R1b-Z2103 too. I'm not sure they cover Z2103. A few of the downstream SNPs were covered in past versions of their test. Please consider transferring your results to Family Tree DNA and joining the R1b Basal Subclades Project. Then ordering a minimal number of STRs so that your kit is visible in the project DNA results section. That will allow the administrators to take a look at your results and maybe have a good idea of what broad haplogroup your sample belongs to. One of the neat things about getting samples from your part of the world is finding new branches. It happens fairly frequently. Because of that, getting a next generation sequencing test would be valuable to both you and to building the Y DNA phylogenetic haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/dna
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/
https://isogg.org/wiki/Next_generation_sequencing

saygun
10-10-2018, 12:46 PM
Please consider transferring your results to Family Tree DNA and joining the R1b Basal Subclades Project.
Unfortunately National Geographic Helix results are not transferrable to FTDNA, and I can not also download the raw data.


Then ordering a minimal number of STRs so that your kit is visible in the project DNA results section. That will allow the administrators to take a look at your results and maybe have a good idea of what broad haplogroup your sample belongs to.
I think the minimal STR test is Y-37 costing around $169. Considering the fact that I already paid for a test, this price now seems even higher for me. And I feel like I am wasting my NatGeo test results. I found out that single SNP tests are available on YSEQ. I can try a single one and in case I turn out to be Z2103, there's also a Z2103 panel test where they cover a few branches. So do you think it makes sense to have a single Z2103 test and a panel test afterwards?


One of the neat things about getting samples from your part of the world is finding new branches. It happens fairly frequently. Because of that, getting a next generation sequencing test would be valuable to both you and to building the Y DNA phylogenetic haplotree.
I would really like to have it, but it's something that I can not do at this time.

Joe B
10-10-2018, 04:12 PM
That sounds like a reasonable plan. Sorry I didn't keep up-to-date with National Geo and transfers to FTDNA.YSeq is a good company and their R1b-Z2103 Panel looks pretty good for Z2108 + clades and a little weak for the A366 and FGC14589 clades. At least it should tide you over until an NGS test becomes more viable for you. If you are Z2103+, please join YSeq group R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades.

saygun
11-10-2018, 10:23 AM
I got my result from YSEQ for Z2103 test and it looks like I am positive for the mutation G to C. Now I need a comprehensive test, there's a Z2103 pack test at FTDNA but it requires ordering an STR test first. So I will go for YSEQ again.

Joe B
11-12-2018, 09:54 PM
I got my result from YSEQ for Z2103 test and it looks like I am positive for the mutation G to C. Now I need a comprehensive test, there's a Z2103 pack test at FTDNA but it requires ordering an STR test first. So I will go for YSEQ again. Sent a message to YSeq urging them to beef up thier R1b-Z2103 panel for your potential subclades.

saygun
11-24-2018, 10:53 AM
YSEQ is showing my test results as they go for new SNPs, I did not have to wait till the end of complete test to see some results. I regularly check my alleles and last week the test for CTS9219 resulted negative. And now I can see two more SNPs tested, Z2106- and FGC14589+/Y13369+. I did not like this as I lost almost %80 of all SNPs in the pack :) and maybe will not be able to find a much more recent ancestor.
On the left are the remaining subclades in YSEQ test. I had a look at the tree from FTDNA and yfull.com and tried to find the correspondance between all. It seems that I will not be tested for R-PH1639/R-Y18781 which represents the second largest subclade under R-584.

27253 27254

If I turn out to be negative for FGC14590, I may have to wish an SNP test for Y18781 as it is not in their catalog.

Joe B
11-25-2018, 05:32 PM
Welcome to phylogenetic bracketing. I would use the YFull haplotree simply because it's easier to use. You can use other SNPs on the same phylogenetic level. YSeq will use SNPs that are best suited for Sanger sequencing.
https://www.yfull.com/branch-info/R-Y18781/#t2-tab
One thing labs don't do that you can do is test brackets that make geographic sense first. This should eliminate some unnecessary testing. There's always the possibility that you could be one of those rare individuals that is R1b-FGC14589+/Y13369+ (L584) just to make it interesting.

A couple of historical threads that you might find of interest.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580-amp-L584

Administrators, would you mind moving this thread to the R1b-Z2103/Z2105 forum?
https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105

saygun
11-26-2018, 05:08 PM
One thing labs don't do that you can do is test brackets that make geographic sense first. This should eliminate some unnecessary testing. There's always the possibility that you could be one of those rare individuals that is R1b-FGC14589+/Y13369+ (L584) just to make it interesting.

A couple of historical threads that you might find of interest.
Thanks for pointing that out. Just an update, I was checking my account on NatGeo for no reason, and played with "transferring to ftdna" option again. I do not know what has changed since 4 months before, but I was actually able to transfer my Helix results to FTDNA this time. FTDNA says that I am R-PF7580 which I believe is an equivalent SNP to FGC14590. YSEQ's already testing me with known subclades of it. So I will probably be able to find my terminal SNP.

saygun
12-15-2018, 03:38 PM
I got my final results, Z2103+ CTS9219- Z2106- FGC14589+ FGC14617- Y19434+ A12333+ A12343+
I think this puts me under R-A12337 at ytree.

Joe B
12-16-2018, 02:33 AM
I got my final results, Z2103+ CTS9219- Z2106- FGC14589+ FGC14617- Y19434+ A12333+ A12343+
I think this puts me under R-A12337 at ytree.
Do you have any plans for further Y DNA testing? YFull has the R1b-A12337 block of SNPs forming 4000 ybp and a TMRCA of 2500 ybp for the two samples. Clearly there is a lot more to learn about this branch.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A12332/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-A12332

saygun
12-16-2018, 06:11 PM
Do you have any plans for further Y DNA testing? YFull has the R1b-A12337 block of SNPs forming 4000 ybp and a TMRCA of 2500 ybp for the two samples. Clearly there is a lot more to learn about this branch.


Actually I do not know what to do now. Do you mean that further tests may help to reshape the branches under A12332/A12337? If so, how can I order those new SNPs? I believe they are not present in both FTDNA and YSEQ panel tests. (except A12345, A12342 as single SNP tests which define the same cluster as A12343 does)