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AlexRus
10-10-2018, 10:09 AM
Let's discuss the ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs. How the East Slavic peoples were formed. What political, historical factors contributed to the generalization of the Eastern Slavs and the formation of the three Eastern Slavic peoples - Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. I also wonder if the Poles belong to Eastern Europe?

AlexRus
10-10-2018, 10:39 AM
Tell this to a Belarusian, he or she will spit in you face. Don't listen to Lusakeshentko swearing on Russian brotherhood to Russians because he wants cheap cruide oil and natural gas. Do you want me to show a video in the centre of Minsk chanting "кто не скачет, то Москаль"?

I am telling this as a someone, who is close to Russians. I can imagine the feelings of my countrymen living further west.
I have a lot of experience working with Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalists. The arguments of the Ukrainian nationalists are the same: Russians - Moksha. Ukrainians and Belarusians are true Slavs. But genetic and linguistic studies do not confirm the seriousness of these arguments. Therefore, I continue to wonder why Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians cannot consider themselves to be a divided people? What is wrong with nationalist Belarusians seeing this? In what direction do the Belarusians want to go with whom they want to unite? Indeed, in the new world, there are processes of integration and globalization. Belarusians will not be able to remain an imperceptible people for a long time. It will be necessary to choose, as Ukrainians do today.

AlexRus
10-10-2018, 11:35 AM
You are a slav by culture, language and socio-political identity and primarly not be genes. Nobody is a slav just because of genes. So there is no way in measuring purer slaveness, what is anyways a pointless idea. We can just conclude who genetically has more Proto-Slavic ancestry. Central Russians are indeed predominately genetic descendants of East Slavs but you have an Finno-Ugrian substrate (around 20%) and it is absurd to deny it. Merya in Central Russia were not like modern day Finns or Komi and themselves very similar to Balto-Slavs.

Also try to prove that Ukrainians have turkic ancestry. That is ultra-nationalist propaganda just like that of Ukrainian nationalists who claim that Russians are turco-mongolic... what is both ridicilious
Slavic-is primarily a language. Genetically, the first Slavs appeared in the South of Belarus, North-East of Ukraine and West of Russia. Belarusians have a strong Baltic substrate. Ukrainians have a very strong Balkan superstrate. Have Russians West and Western parts of Central Russia(West of Moscow) and South-West substrate there is no at all. So these Russians are the true Slavs. I am not proud of it, I say archaeological and historical fact.

Russians Vladimir and Rostov not similar on Merya. Slavs mixed up with Meria in the East of the Kostroma region - Unzha.. So look for a bride from the city of Unzha. From the Unzha was taken of the sample "Russian Kostroma.".

Vladimir region is "Opol'e". Here was the most massive migration of Slavs from the territory of Eastern Ukraine in the 10-14 century. Since there is fertile land. The substrate is here too, but it is very small. Almost the same as Native American substrate for white Americans.

Have you ever seen a Gagauz? Gagauz Turks are descendants of Pechenegs, but genetically in Europe. That kind of admixture is in the Ukrainians. However, many Ukrainians do not pass in Russia as Europeans - turanidny or very Balkan appearance makes them unlike Slavs. It is not proved that autosomes are 100% talking about the origin, anthropology is very important.

Volat
11-15-2018, 01:35 AM
I have a lot of experience working with Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalists. The arguments of the Ukrainian nationalists are the same: Russians - Moksha. Ukrainians and Belarusians are true Slavs. But genetic and linguistic studies do not confirm the seriousness of these arguments. Therefore, I continue to wonder why Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians cannot consider themselves to be a divided people? What is wrong with nationalist Belarusians seeing this? In what direction do the Belarusians want to go with whom they want to unite? Indeed, in the new world, there are processes of integration and globalization. Belarusians will not be able to remain an imperceptible people for a long time. It will be necessary to choose, as Ukrainians do today.

I am not a nationalist. Russians of Smolensk are close to us. I am telling about the feelings of our young girls and guys. Even older generation such as president Lukashenko who was behind the formation of 'союзного государства' stated "Русский мир" is a propagandistic silliness" : https://inosmi.ru/sngbaltia/20150804/229437278.html

AlexRus
11-15-2018, 06:38 AM
I am not a nationalist. Russians of Smolensk are close to us. I am telling about the feelings of our young girls and guys. Even older generation such as president Lukashenko who was behind the formation of 'союзного государства' stated "Русский мир" is a propagandistic silliness" : https://inosmi.ru/sngbaltia/20150804/229437278.htmlWhat you write is backward nationalism.

Russian Smolensk is close to the rest of the Russian people in mentality, language, culture and self-consciousness. This is important. The proximity to the Belarusians is ancient from the common Slavic ancestors of the Radimiches. If you talk about politics, that all Russians think the Belarusians are brothers and one people. Genetics and minimal differences are not the main thing. Belarus is similar to one of Russia's smaller regions in terms of DNA diversity, separated from the rest of the Russian people by the will of historical events and politics.

AlexRus
11-15-2018, 06:49 AM
Even older generation such as president Lukashenko who was behind the formation of 'союзного государства' stated "Русский мир" is a propagandistic silliness" : https://inosmi.ru/sngbaltia/20150804/229437278.html
Who is Lukashenka for me, why do you give him to me as an example? I don't care what he says. My heroes are not Putin, Lukashenka or Poroshenko, but Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Svyatoslav, Minin and Pozharsky.

Tomenable
01-25-2019, 01:03 PM
Let's discuss the ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs. How the East Slavic peoples were formed. What political, historical factors contributed to the generalization of the Eastern Slavs and the formation of the three Eastern Slavic peoples - Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. I also wonder if the Poles belong to Eastern Europe?

Based on MDLP K16 Spreadsheet, it seems that West Ukrainians cluster with West Slavs, as well as 3 out of 4 Polish regions:

https://i.imgur.com/TeUPiRL.png

Unfortunately there are no regional labels in the spreadsheet (they have been added to Oracle, but not yet to the spreadsheet).

Only 1 out of 4 Polish references clusters with East Slavs.

Tomenable
11-28-2019, 07:54 AM
Something interesting:

Based on G25, Ukrainians are closer to Poles than they are to Russians and Belarusians, what explanations do you suggest guys?:

https://i.imgur.com/pz0GOaw.png

Distances of West Slavs to other Slavic groups:

https://i.imgur.com/bJG5nvK.png

https://i.imgur.com/886XEhS.png

https://i.imgur.com/QrXcv4N.png

=====

For comparison distances of Macedonians:
("where South Slavs end" is visible here)

https://i.imgur.com/FauRJZr.png

=====

And here my distances to G25 populations:

Colours added for:

Red = Slavic-speaking
Blue = Baltic-speaking*
Yellow = Germanic-speaking
Violet = Finno-Ugric-speaking
Green = British/Irish/Breton
Pink = Romance-speaking

*Lithuanian_PA is Vilnius Region in the south.

https://i.imgur.com/9FnMEqi.png

^^^
Russian Pinega is 66th or 74th respectively.

Coldmountains
11-28-2019, 09:32 AM
Something interesting:

Based on G25, Ukrainians are closer to Poles than they are to Russians and Belarusians, what explanations do you suggest guys?:

https://i.imgur.com/pz0GOaw.png

Distances of West Slavs to other Slavic groups:

https://i.imgur.com/bJG5nvK.png

https://i.imgur.com/886XEhS.png

https://i.imgur.com/QrXcv4N.png

=====

For comparison distances of Macedonians:
("where South Slavs end" is visible here)

https://i.imgur.com/FauRJZr.png

=====

And here my distances to G25 populations:

Colours added for:

Red = Slavic-speaking
Blue = Baltic-speaking*
Yellow = Germanic-speaking
Violet = Finno-Ugric-speaking
Green = British/Irish/Breton
Pink = Romance-speaking

*Lithuanian_PA is Vilnius Region in the south.

https://i.imgur.com/9FnMEqi.png

^^^
Russian Pinega is 66th or 74th respectively.

well Ukrainians are only a tiny bit closer to Poles here than to Southwest Russians. Also the Ukrainian average is including Ukrainians from different regions (West, Central, East). West Ukrainians would be definetly closer to Poles but East Ukrainians would be closer to Russians from Oryol or Kursk. My Russian wife is closer to some East Ukrainians than to many other Russians for example. Central Ukrainians are probably inbetween but a bit closer to Poles.

artemv
11-29-2019, 04:53 PM
well Ukrainians are only a tiny bit closer to Poles here than to Southwest Russians. Also the Ukrainian average is including Ukrainians from different regions (West, Central, East). West Ukrainians would be definetly closer to Poles but East Ukrainians would be closer to Russians from Oryol or Kursk. My Russian wife is closer to some East Ukrainians than to many other Russians for example. Central Ukrainians are probably inbetween but a bit closer to Poles.

There was really a lot of mixture between Russians and Ukrainians in the 20th century. I guess before population exchange between Poland and Ukraine (happened soon after WW2) there was also a serious gene flow between Ukrainians and Polish people.
East and West Slavs are genetically very close to each other (I'm sure, there is no reason to make any political conclusions out of that fact). As far as I understand, numbers you can see mostly depend on random - on a group of persons selected to represent their region and do not say much about relations between groups in general.
Looking at the numbers I'm only surprized that Sorbs are so close to the rest of the Slavs and got very little (if any) German admixture.

P.S. No surprize that Russians from Kostroma/Pinega are genetically distant from other Slavs. North Russians have significal admixture from pre-Slavic Finno-Ugrian population of that region.

Mingle
11-29-2019, 09:46 PM
Based on MDLP K16 Spreadsheet, it seems that West Ukrainians cluster with West Slavs, as well as 3 out of 4 Polish regions:

https://i.imgur.com/TeUPiRL.png

Unfortunately there are no regional labels in the spreadsheet (they have been added to Oracle, but not yet to the spreadsheet).

Only 1 out of 4 Polish references clusters with East Slavs.

Where is the Pole that clusters with East Slavs from?

11-29-2019, 10:37 PM
From my basic understanding, I would say it’s because of the fact the Polish border was well inside Western Ukraine before ww2, before that of course the border was quite porous and populations would have moved freely. In Eastern Ukraine, I would suspect the opposite, in being more closer to Russia, which would make Geographical and historical sense with the Kievian Rus, not not mention all other historical peoples of the area.

artemv
11-30-2019, 03:40 AM
From my basic understanding, I would say it’s because of the fact the Polish border was well inside Western Ukraine before ww2, before that of course the border was quite porous and populations would have moved freely. In Eastern Ukraine, I would suspect the opposite, in being more closer to Russia, which would make Geographical and historical sense with the Kievian Rus, not not mention all other historical peoples of the area.

Pre-war Poland is a country that existed for about 20 years.
Before that both Poland and Ukraine were parts of Russian Empire for about 100 years. People could migrate between Russia, Ukraine and Poland freely.

11-30-2019, 09:30 AM
Pre-war Poland is a country that existed for about 20 years.
Before that both Poland and Ukraine were parts of Russian Empire for about 100 years. People could migrate between Russia, Ukraine and Poland freely.
Sure, agreed, Poland as an identity has existed though for 1000 years, and in various forms in between.

artemv
11-30-2019, 10:07 AM
Sure, agreed, Poland as an identity has existed though for 1000 years, and in various forms in between.

That wasn't my point. I wanted to say, that significant time out of those 1000 years Polish and Ukrainian people lived in the same state. It was Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth, later it was Russian Empire. So this two peoples were not just genetically common from the beginning, they could intermary as there was no physical boundary. Polish people lived on territory of modern Ukraine, and Ukrainians lived on the territory of modern Poland.
The boundary between Polish and Ukrainian was mostly religious: Ukrainians are either Orthodox Christians or Uniates, while Polish are Catholic. But all that time there were people who changed their confessional affilation to intermary.

AlexRus
11-30-2019, 09:14 PM
Pre-war Poland is a country that existed for about 20 years.
Before that both Poland and Ukraine were parts of Russian Empire for about 100 years. People could migrate between Russia, Ukraine and Poland freely.
Both Poland and Russia and Ukraine are countries with a non-free population. Until the mid-19th century, most of the inhabitants of these countries (up to 90%) were not free peasants. In the 20th century, these peasants were very poor and could not migrate anywhere.

AlexRus
11-30-2019, 09:19 PM
well Ukrainians are only a tiny bit closer to Poles here than to Southwest Russians. Also the Ukrainian average is including Ukrainians from different regions (West, Central, East). West Ukrainians would be definetly closer to Poles but East Ukrainians would be closer to Russians from Oryol or Kursk. My Russian wife is closer to some East Ukrainians than to many other Russians for example. Central Ukrainians are probably inbetween but a bit closer to Poles.
If your wife is Russian, then she cannot be "closer to the Ukrainians." Most likely, Ukrainians are close to her and other Russians. Ukrainians are a mixture of Poles, Romanians and Russians.

AlexRus
11-30-2019, 09:22 PM
I will not tire of repeating - the southern Russians are the last original Slavs. Ukrainians are a mixture of Slavs and southern people; they cannot be the standard of Slavism. Northern Russians are moving away from other Slavs only because their genetics are contrasting Finnish. In fact, the northern Russians are more Slavic than any other Western European.

Coldmountains
11-30-2019, 09:55 PM
If your wife is Russian, then she cannot be "closer to the Ukrainians." Most likely, Ukrainians are close to her and other Russians. Ukrainians are a mixture of Poles, Romanians and Russians.

well you are also closer to Ukrainians than to many Russians. Anyways Ukrainians, Russians or Belarusians are modern day ethnic groups and dont represent strict ethnic divisions before the modern age. There is nothinhg suprising about Russians clustering rather with Ukrainians or even East Poles than with other Russians and the other way around. Modern day borders are in no way genetic borders here and especially East Slavs were in history all the time mixing and interacting with each other because of the often shared language, religion and customs.

AlexRus
12-01-2019, 09:25 PM
well you are also closer to Ukrainians than to many Russians. Anyways Ukrainians, Russians or Belarusians are modern day ethnic groups and dont represent strict ethnic divisions before the modern age. There is nothinhg suprising about Russians clustering rather with Ukrainians or even East Poles than with other Russians and the other way around. Modern day borders are in no way genetic borders here and especially East Slavs were in history all the time mixing and interacting with each other because of the often shared language, religion and customs.
you're wrong at the root of the question. Russians are the last Slavs. Some Poles and Ukrainians share the PСA with the Russians. But Russians never share PСA with Poles or Ukrainians. Do you understand this? Do you understand that not Russians have a common origin with Poles, are Poles sharing a common origin with Russians? Or are you a Eurocentrist and a liar? Do you understand that the central Russians are First-Slavs? Slavs arose on the Oka River. Polesie, Kiev, Prague are the secondary zones of resettlement. The first Slavs are Oka.

AlexRus
12-01-2019, 09:36 PM
well you are also closer to Ukrainians than to many Russians.

70% of Ukrainians are closer to Romanians than to Russians. Russians do not have Ukrainian genetics. The few Ukrainians have genetics similar to Russian ones. This is a scientifically proven fact. Europeans ignore this fact, trying to expose their Anatolian genetics as European. This is a big FALSE and propaganda.
https://ibb.co/s505CsP
Sche - it's me. Many Belarusians and Ukrainians are close to me, but they are not typical Ukrainians and Belarusians. These Belarusians and Ukrainians are close to Russians. However, NO ONE Russian has anything to do with the average Ukrainian!

Coldmountains
12-02-2019, 12:29 AM
you're wrong at the root of the question. Russians are the last Slavs. Some Poles and Ukrainians share the PСA with the Russians. But Russians never share PСA with Poles or Ukrainians. Do you understand this? Do you understand that not Russians have a common origin with Poles, are Poles sharing a common origin with Russians? Or are you a Eurocentrist and a liar? Do you understand that the central Russians are First-Slavs? Slavs arose on the Oka River. Polesie, Kiev, Prague are the secondary zones of resettlement. The first Slavs are Oka.

well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidences. I am not aware of any evidences for this claims. Slavs immigrated from the southwest into Russia. No serious academic in Russia is seriously denying this. Get over the fact that most of your ancestors came from the southwest including territories belonging now to Ukraine. Claiming that Slavs came from the Oka region which had a documented Finno-Ugrian population untill medieval times is just pseudo-science. Balto-Slavs arrived rather late in this region. Some Baltic groups arrived bit earlier than Slavs but the region had an earlier Finno-Ugrian population

George
12-02-2019, 12:48 AM
well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidences. I am not aware of any evidences for this claims. Slavs immigrated from the southwest into Russia. No serious academic in Russia is seriously denying this. Get over the fact that most of your ancestors came from the southwest including territories belonging now to Ukraine. Claiming that Slavs came from the Oka region which had a documented Finno-Ugrian population untill medieval times is just pseudo-science. Balto-Slavs arrived rather late in this region. Some Baltic groups arrived bit earlier than Slavs but the region had an earlier Finno-Ugrian population

As far as I know there are no recognized Old Slavic toponyms or hydronyms in the Oka basin. Toporov considers Moscow as Baltic, while the Oka basin is loaded with Old Baltic and Finno Ugrian terms. Nothing Slavic until the early Middle Ages. Sure looks as if these “first Slavs” were not Slavic speakers;)

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 09:34 AM
well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidences. I am not aware of any evidences for this claims. Slavs immigrated from the southwest into Russia. No serious academic in Russia is seriously denying this. Get over the fact that most of your ancestors came from the southwest including territories belonging now to Ukraine. Claiming that Slavs came from the Oka region which had a documented Finno-Ugrian population untill medieval times is just pseudo-science. Balto-Slavs arrived rather late in this region. Some Baltic groups arrived bit earlier than Slavs but the region had an earlier Finno-Ugrian population
Unfortunately, you live in your own fantasy world. What do we have in reality. Slavs appeared within the Kiev culture. This culture extended in the west from Kiev to the west of Russia. Some centers of the Slavonic culture are found even more east. On the western outskirts of Kiev culture, after the Mongol invasion, the population completely changed. People with Balkan-Vlach DNA came to this part of Ukraine and Polesie. Modern Ukrainians are at least half their descendants. In the east of Kiev culture - the south-west of Russia, the Slavs remained unchanged, as the Slavs came to territories free from people. Also, the Slavs advanced into the empty territories of the Oryol and Moscow regions. This is a scientific archaeological fact, unknown to you.
The southwestern Danube origin of the Slavs is an outdated hypothesis, today it is regarded as a fake. Almost the entire territory of Ukraine is Chernyakhov’s culture, which has no direct relation to the Slavs.

What we have.
Ukrainians are mixed Vlacho-Slavic peoples
Belarusians are mixed Vlacho-Balto-Slavic peoples.
Northern Russians - mixed Finno-Slavic territories.
southwestern Russians are the only unchanged Slavs in Europe. That is why southwestern Russians never come PCA along with the main Poles or Ukrainians, but some Ukrainians and Poles sometimes come along with the southwestern and central Russians.

The PS center of Russia is not only Vladimir or Rostov, it is also Moscow, Vyazma and so on. There is some Finnish influence in Vladimir; in Moscow and west of Moscow this influence is not.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 09:45 AM
As far as I know there are no recognized Old Slavic toponyms or hydronyms in the Oka basin. Toporov considers Moscow as Baltic, while the Oka basin is loaded with Old Baltic and Finno Ugrian terms. Nothing Slavic until the early Middle Ages. Sure looks as if these “first Slavs” were not Slavic speakers;)
Belonging to the Oka hydronyms to non-Slavs is very controversial, many scholars consider these hydronyms to be archaic Slavic. At the time of their appearance, it does not seem possible to differentiate the Slavs and the Balts. Hydronyms belong to the ancestors of both the Slavs and the Balts. Oka is the most archaic and ancient territory of the first Slavs. Polesie is already a subsidiary Slavic territory with a more modern Slavic dialect.

Huck Finn
12-02-2019, 12:20 PM
Oka is the most archaic and ancient territory of the first Slavs....etc.

I'd go easy on drinking for a couple of days now, if I was you. The only thing missing is a pink elephant.

Ruderico
12-02-2019, 03:01 PM
Guys, I realise the discussion regarding ancient peoples that are in one way or another related to us can get a bit passionate, but keep the discussion civil. Also, if possible, try to backup your claims with a source, that's the best way to keep the discussion with some quality, otherwise we get into an endless loop of opposite claims that will serve no purpose other than being annoying, in which case the thread serves no purpose

Huck Finn
12-02-2019, 04:16 PM
Also, if possible, try to backup your claims with a source...
I'm truly amazed if AlexRus is able to present a real scientific source which supports his claims. Not gonna happen, I suppose.

Michalis Moriopoulos
12-02-2019, 04:35 PM
Europeans ignore this fact, trying to expose their Anatolian genetics as European. This is a big FALSE and propaganda.

Are you claiming Russians don't have Anatolian farmer ancestry? :confused:

Johnny ola
12-02-2019, 04:38 PM
Are you claiming Russians don't have Anatolian farmer ancestry? :confused:

Ethnicity EHG... that says a lot xd :bounce:

Coldmountains
12-02-2019, 04:40 PM
As far as I know there are no recognized Old Slavic toponyms or hydronyms in the Oka basin. Toporov considers Moscow as Baltic, while the Oka basin is loaded with Old Baltic and Finno Ugrian terms. Nothing Slavic until the early Middle Ages. Sure looks as if these “first Slavs” were not Slavic speakers;)

There are rumours about pre-Finno-Ugrian Fatyanovo people being R1b-L51 and some linguists speculated that the hydronym Oka and other hydronyms in the region have an archaic IE etmylogy closer to some West IE languages than Balto-Slavic. But no matter how true these rumours are, pre-Finno-Ugrian Abashevo and Fatyanovo were very unlikely ancestral to Balto-Slavs.

George
12-02-2019, 04:46 PM
There are rumours about pre-Finno-Ugrian Fatyanovo people being R1b-L51 and some linguists speculated that the hydronym Oka and other hydronyms in the region have an archaic IE etmylogy closer to some West IE languages than Balto-Slavic.

Correct.

artemv
12-02-2019, 04:50 PM
Both Poland and Russia and Ukraine are countries with a non-free population. Until the mid-19th century, most of the inhabitants of these countries (up to 90%) were not free peasants. In the 20th century, these peasants were very poor and could not migrate anywhere.

You probably wanted to say "Both Poland and Russia and Ukraine WERE countries with a non-free population until mid 19th century"?
Up to 90% could be only in some small specific areas. If we check percent of non-free people by governotates, we will see maximum of about 70% in Smolensk governorate. In old former Polish-Lithuaninan territories there were usually about 50% of non-free people. In new former steppe territories, like Kherson, Ekatrinoslav, Kharkov governorates percent of non-free population was about 30% - that's because landlords moved their dependent population to their new lands in the South. Free and non-free people from Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia migrated in 19th century to former steppe territories that are now South Ukraine, built new cities and rural settlements and mixed there.

Yes, in late 19th century and before 1914 peasants were mostly very poor, but it was the time of demographic boost. Villages had too many population and not enough land, those poor peasants had to migrate to every possible location. They populated all the former steppe regions on the territory of modern Russia/Ukraine, formed the bulk of Russian Siberian\Far East population, started to settle in all the other territories, controlled by Russian Empire, migrated en masse to cities and many of them also moved to the US.

Alain
12-02-2019, 05:15 PM
There are rumours about pre-Finno-Ugrian Fatyanovo people being R1b-L51 and some linguists speculated that the hydronym Oka and other hydronyms in the region have an archaic IE etmylogy closer to some West IE languages than Balto-Slavic. But no matter how true these rumours are, pre-Finno-Ugrian Abashevo and Fatyanovo were very unlikely ancestral to Balto-Slavs.

What do you think Fatyanovo people were Indo-Iranian or Finno-Ugrians?

artemv
12-02-2019, 05:15 PM
Slavs appeared within the Kiev culture. This culture extended in the west from Kiev to the west of Russia. Some centers of the Slavonic culture are found even more east. On the western outskirts of Kiev culture, after the Mongol invasion, the population completely changed.
Kiev culture ended about 700 years before Mongol envasion.


People with Balkan-Vlach DNA came to this part of Ukraine and Polesie. Modern Ukrainians are at least half their descendants.
Could you please support your claim of modern Ukrainians being half Vlach? Show us your model or give some links to scientific articles.


In the east of Kiev culture - the south-west of Russia, the Slavs remained unchanged, as the Slavs came to territories free from people. Also, the Slavs advanced into the empty territories of the Oryol and Moscow regions. This is a scientific archaeological fact, unknown to you.

What century are you talking about? Again, Kiev culture ended about 7 centuries before Mongols. Or you just mix Kiev culture with Kievan Rus? At that period (13th century) living close to the steppe was too dangerous, and to the South-East from Ryazan there was little sedentary Slav population.
Well, the city of Oryol itself was found in the second half of 16th century.

Coldmountains
12-02-2019, 05:28 PM
What do you think Fatyanovo people were Indo-Iranian or Finno-Ugrians?
Finno-Ugrians arrived much later. Fatyanovo is ultimately from the GAC/steppe frontier zone and probably some archaic IE group which did not leave modern descendants. Indo-Iranians are derived from Abashevo i think

Alain
12-02-2019, 05:50 PM
Finno-Ugrians arrived much later. Fatyanovo is ultimately from the GAC/steppe frontier zone and probably some archaic IE group which did not leave modern descendants. Indo-Iranians are derived from Abashevo i think
OK thanks what do you mean Fatyanovo people later mixed mi Finno-Ugrians and Balto-Slavic would not be mutually exclusive. The Finno-Ugrians came but only IA time in this terrain?

Alain
12-02-2019, 06:39 PM
Kiev culture ended about 700 years before Mongol envasion.

Could you please support your claim of modern Ukrainians being half Vlach? Show us your model or give some links to scientific articles.

What century are you talking about? Again, Kiev culture ended about 7 centuries before Mongols. Or you just mix Kiev culture with Kievan Rus? At that period (13th century) living close to the steppe was too dangerous, and to the South-East from Ryazan there was little sedentary Slav population.
Well, the city of Oryol itself was found in the second half of 16th century.

Maybe there are some people with Y-DNA and mtdna who are descended from Vlachs, that is, some have assimilated in Poland and Ukraine but are not crucial for finding the autosomal only in the lines but a small part and not half of the population, although the population in Galicia gets genetically closer to the Balkans (something)

Alain
12-02-2019, 06:45 PM
There are also very few Poles of non-Tatar origin with Y-DNA R1a Z93 Z2124 but nevertheless in the Autosomal are predominantly Slavic, that means only one line of the Y-DNA was Scythian or Cumanic which is crossed by the area. But that does not change the whole Gene pool

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 08:32 PM
Are you claiming Russians don't have Anatolian farmer ancestry? :confused:
Russians have a significant portion of Anatolian farmers. But Anatolian farmers are not a defining component in East European genetics.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 08:34 PM
I'd go easy on drinking for a couple of days now, if I was you. The only thing missing is a pink elephant.
You must read something about the Milograd and Yukhnov culture.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 08:39 PM
Kiev culture ended about 700 years before Mongol envasion.

Could you please support your claim of modern Ukrainians being half Vlach? Show us your model or give some links to scientific articles.

What century are you talking about? Again, Kiev culture ended about 7 centuries before Mongols. Or you just mix Kiev culture with Kievan Rus? At that period (13th century) living close to the steppe was too dangerous, and to the South-East from Ryazan there was little sedentary Slav population.
Well, the city of Oryol itself was found in the second half of 16th century.
To understand that Ukrainians are semi-Vlachs, it’s enough to visit Ukraine. I was there and I did not see Slavic faces there, only the Slavic language. You can also read Soviet anthropologists. For example, anthropologist Alekseev, who proved that Ukrainians came from the territory southwest of Ukraine. I have a good attitude towards Ukrainians and I see nothing wrong with the fact that they have a strong Vlach impurity, in some areas, in my opinion, up to 80% ... there is also nothing wrong with the fact that northern Russians have a Finnish admixture.

Johnny ola
12-02-2019, 08:49 PM
To understand that Ukrainians are semi-Vlachs, it’s enough to visit Ukraine. I was there and I did not see Slavic faces there, only the Slavic language. You can also read Soviet anthropologists. For example, anthropologist Alekseev, who proved that Ukrainians came from the territory southwest of Ukraine. I have a good attitude towards Ukrainians and I see nothing wrong with the fact that they have a strong Vlach impurity, in some areas, in my opinion, up to 80% ... there is also nothing wrong with the fact that northern Russians have a Finnish admixture.

LoL.This is the most unscientific post i have ever seen.You have to prove it genetically not by phenotypes.

The term Vlach refers to latinicized paleo-balkan folks mostly as thracians,illyrians,dacians etc.I am pretty sure you cannot prove it by genetics.Something is telling me that you try to categorize ukrainians as most ANF admixed compared to Russians.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 08:52 PM
What century are you talking about? Again, Kiev culture ended about 7 centuries before Mongols. Or you just mix Kiev culture with Kievan Rus? At that period (13th century) living close to the steppe was too dangerous, and to the South-East from Ryazan there was little sedentary Slav population.
Well, the city of Oryol itself was found in the second half of 16th century.
You poorly know what Kievan Rus and Kievan culture are. Westerners do not understand Eastern Europe at all and have very superficial and stereotypical information about its history. Here is Kievan Rus. I know that it’s a shock for you, that Kievan Rus is not related to Ukraine.
https://i.ibb.co/N32M1rC/kievrus.jpg (https://ibb.co/YWBxDXQ)
This is Kiev culture, which also occupies no more than 25% of the territory of Ukraine. About the same amount of Kiev culture occupies areas in Russia and Belarus. Same shock?
https://i.ibb.co/FJ4y9Jx/3-42-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/sQ9NhQm)
Of course, I do not confuse Kiev culture and Kievan Rus. You just don’t understand what I'm talking about. I have a good command of the history, archeology and anthropology of the early Slavic tribes of eastern Europe.

Johnny ola
12-02-2019, 08:55 PM
Russians have a significant portion of Anatolian farmers. But Anatolian farmers are not a defining component in East European genetics.

Russians like most eastern slavs have EHG+CHG,anatolian neolithic and WHG.I don’t understand your point here.If you mean that Anatolian N is not the main component that’s true,but the fact it dosnt exist you are totally wrong.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 09:00 PM
LoL.This is the most unscientific post i have ever seen.You have to prove it genetically not by phenotypes.

The term Vlach refers to latinicized paleo-balkan folks mostly as thracians,illyrians,dacians etc.I am pretty sure you cannot prove it by genetics.Something is telling me that you try to categorize ukrainians as most ANF admixed compared to Russians.
Here somewhere there was the PCA K36, where southern and southwestern Ukrainians gravitated towards Vlachs, such as Moldavians. I lost this picture on another computer. Central Ukrainians also had a significant southern component. Something between the Poles, Russians and Vlachs.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 09:04 PM
Russians like most eastern slavs have EHG+CHG,anatolian neolithic and WHG.I don’t understand your point here.If you mean that Anatolian N is not the main component that’s true,but the fact it dosnt exist you are totally wrong.
Yes this. Why do you mind me? I just say that in Eastern Europe the Anatolian farmer is not as important as in Western Europe.

Johnny ola
12-02-2019, 09:05 PM
Here somewhere there was the PCA K36, where southern and southwestern Ukrainians gravitated towards Vlachs, such as Moldavians. I lost this picture on another computer. Central Ukrainians also had a significant southern component. Something between the Poles, Russians and Vlachs.

Many people in Ukraine have foreign background.You have to be sure if they are pure Ukrainians and not mixed.Also it would be better to link some gedmatches or G25 coordinates/samples.PCA is not the most accurate IMO.Most ukraine gedmatches i have seen look normal to me and not balkan shifted.

Coldmountains
12-02-2019, 09:13 PM
well most of Russian mtdna haplogroups (H, T, K,W..) are EEF- or CHG-derived. Ultimately only U clades like U4 or U5 seem to be from European HGs. All mainstream Europeans derive most of their mtdna haplogroups from EEFs including North Europeans and Balto-Slavs. Autosomally Russians are mostly around 40% EEF-derived,what is a lot even when it is less than among other Europeans. But Russians are only a bit less EEF-derived than for example Scandinavians (around 45% EEF-like ancestry).

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 6.8172% / 0.06817171
46.6 RUS_Samara_HG
40.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
6.8 WHG
6.6 GEO_CHG


Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 7.6113% / 0.07611335
43.6 RUS_Samara_HG
39.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.6 WHG
7.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 7.0505% / 0.07050537
48.4 RUS_Samara_HG
38.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.0 WHG
6.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 6.9719% / 0.06971866
44.6 RUS_Samara_HG
41.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.8 WHG
6.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 6.7076% / 0.06707594
43.4 RUS_Samara_HG
42.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.4 WHG
6.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 7.5733% / 0.07573269
46.0 RUS_Samara_HG
40.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.8 WHG
4.6 GEO_CHG

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 6.7638% / 0.06763809
45.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
41.4 RUS_Samara_HG
8.0 WHG
4.8 GEO_CHG

thejkhan
12-02-2019, 09:23 PM
Russians have a significant portion of Anatolian farmers. But Anatolian farmers are not a defining component in East European genetics.

See Coldmountain's post above - almost half of your dna is from Anatolian farmers.

AlexRus
12-02-2019, 09:23 PM
well most of Russian mtdna haplogroups (H, T, K,W..) are EEF- or CHG-derived. Ultimately only U clades like U4 or U5 seem to be from European HGs. All mainstream Europeans derive most of their mtdna haplogroups from EEFs including North Europeans and Balto-Slavs. Autosomally Russians are mostly around 40% EEF-derived,what is a lot even when it is less than among other Europeans. But Russians are only a bit less EEF-derived than for example Scandinavians (around 45% EEF-like ancestry).
Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 6.8172% / 0.06817171
46.6 RUS_Samara_HG
40.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
6.8 WHG
6.6 GEO_CHG


Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 7.6113% / 0.07611335
43.6 RUS_Samara_HG
39.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.6 WHG
7.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 7.0505% / 0.07050537
48.4 RUS_Samara_HG
38.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.0 WHG
6.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 6.9719% / 0.06971866
44.6 RUS_Samara_HG
41.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.8 WHG
6.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 6.7076% / 0.06707594
43.4 RUS_Samara_HG
42.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.4 WHG
6.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 7.5733% / 0.07573269
46.0 RUS_Samara_HG
40.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.8 WHG
4.6 GEO_CHG

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 6.7638% / 0.06763809
45.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
41.4 RUS_Samara_HG
8.0 WHG
4.8 GEO_CHG
Your components are incorrect. Take EHG, WHG, CHG, Barcin_N. And look how many Anatolian farmers the Russians have. Less only in the Baltic and Finns. The Scandinavians have much more, so they are much south. The main component of the Russians, Finns, Balts is EHG.

artemv
12-02-2019, 11:37 PM
On the western outskirts of Kiev culture, after the Mongol invasion, the population completely changed.

I will remind you one of your previous messages, and will repeat once again that there are 700 years between the end of Kiev archeological culture and Mongol invasion. You respond me with maps that in no case clarify anything, and that seem to have no connection to the things we've discussed earlier.

Ok, let's return to the map that you have posted, the one that refers to Kiev culture.
Please tell me, how is it connected to your claims about complete change of population "on the western outskirts of Kiev culture, after the Mongol invasion"?


Of course, I do not confuse Kiev culture and Kievan Rus.
But you write about Mongol invasion and Kiev culture as if Mongol invasion happened at a time when Kiev culture existed.



To understand that Ukrainians are semi-Vlachs, it’s enough to visit Ukraine. I was there and I did not see Slavic faces there, only the Slavic language. You can also read Soviet anthropologists. For example, anthropologist Alekseev, who proved that Ukrainians came from the territory southwest of Ukraine. I have a good attitude towards Ukrainians and I see nothing wrong with the fact that they have a strong Vlach impurity, in some areas, in my opinion, up to 80%
That is not the way how modern anthropology works. Before DNA sequencing was aviable for researches, antropologists indeed tried to compare relatedness of ancient populations by measuring the skeletons. This way didn't work, as populations different genetically might have very similar traits, such as height or skull sizes. Before aDNA became available, they could not even understand the main migrations that formed today's Europe genetically. If you want to know how close are some populations genetically, use the method that works - compare DNA.

Alain
12-03-2019, 06:01 AM
At mtdna W1-W3 I can say it is very widespread Indo-Europeans mostly in Baltic States, Finlandia , Hungary, Poland to Siberia 3 samples in Tungusic, 2 at Uyghurs and with greater concentration in Central Asia and one in Laos, some are Neolithic (other) Yamnaya and 2 samples in bronze age Turkmenistan

AlexRus
12-03-2019, 06:53 AM
I will remind you one of your previous messages, and will repeat once again that there are 700 years between the end of Kiev archeological culture and Mongol invasion. You respond me with maps that in no case clarify anything, and that seem to have no connection to the things we've discussed earlier.

Ok, let's return to the map that you have posted, the one that refers to Kiev culture.
Please tell me, how is it connected to your claims about complete change of population "on the western outskirts of Kiev culture, after the Mongol invasion"?


But you write about Mongol invasion and Kiev culture as if Mongol invasion happened at a time when Kiev culture existed.


That is not the way how modern anthropology works. Before DNA sequencing was aviable for researches, antropologists indeed tried to compare relatedness of ancient populations by measuring the skeletons. This way didn't work, as populations different genetically might have very similar traits, such as height or skull sizes. Before aDNA became available, they could not even understand the main migrations that formed today's Europe genetically. If you want to know how close are some populations genetically, use the method that works - compare DNA.
Honestly, I don’t understand what you are arguing with. I am writing about the continuity of the ancient inhabitants of Kievan culture, the inhabitants of Kievan Rus and the modern population of Ukraine. This continuity exists, but not complete, since in the entire history of Ukraine there have been many displacements and migrations of the people, including at a later time - after the Mongol devastation, when a population change took place in Kiev and eastern Ukraine.
Southwestern Russians did not experience a strong influence of migration, therefore, are genetically more similar to the first Slavs.

Coldmountains
12-03-2019, 07:04 AM
Your components are incorrect. Take EHG, WHG, CHG, Barcin_N. And look how many Anatolian farmers the Russians have. Less only in the Baltic and Finns. The Scandinavians have much more, so they are much south. The main component of the Russians, Finns, Balts is EHG.

Russians have around 5% less EEF than Scandinavians here. That is not really a big difference. I dont really see the point in deying the big ampunt of EEF ancestry in Russia. (West) Russians are genetically except of the balto-slavic drift and minor Uralic ancestry very close to other North Eurpeans and not such an unique population. Most of Russian ancestry is from Iron Age Central-East Europe and not from Bronze Age ot Iron East Europe. The pre-Slavic population of many areas in West Russia was almost fully replaced but this does mot mean that Slavs are from here.

Alain
12-03-2019, 07:59 AM
For example the old believing Russians a religious community has a higher Uralic and slightly East Asian component otherwise I would say the Russians are predominantly Slavic

AlexRus
12-03-2019, 10:28 AM
Russians have around 5% less EEF than Scandinavians here. That is not really a big difference. I dont really see the point in deying the big ampunt of EEF ancestry in Russia. (West) Russians are genetically except of the balto-slavic drift and minor Uralic ancestry very close to other North Eurpeans and not such an unique population. Most of Russian ancestry is from Iron Age Central-East Europe and not from Bronze Age ot Iron East Europe. The pre-Slavic population of many areas in West Russia was almost fully replaced but this does mot mean that Slavs are from here.
1.No, the Slavs have never been to central Europe. Their ancestral home is the east of Ukraine and the West of Russia - the Yukhnov and Milograd culture, which is directly descended from the Sredniy Stog + some kind of migration of farmers. The last direct descendants of the first Slavs are southwestern Russians and part of the central Russians. Eastern and southern Ukrainians are mixed with southwestern Europeans, most likely in the past native speakers of Romance languages. Such as Moldovans and Romanians. Belarusians have a strong Baltic pool.
2. The Scandinavians really have a little more farmers than the Russians, But the Scandinavians themselves are quite unique among the Germans, like the Russians among the Slavs. This uniqueness connects Russians directly with the ancestors of the Slavs. Perhaps this information will annoy our western partners. But I will say even more. Recently, the hypothesis of the origin of Indo-Europeans from northeast Europe, that is, from the territory of northern Russia, is the hypothesis of Professor Klein ... Most likely, the first Indo-European languages ​​are EHG. (IMHO). Indeed, eastern hypotheses will annoy Europeans from the west of Europe. But it is necessary to change stereotypical outdated thinking.

Alain
12-03-2019, 10:38 AM
1.No, the Slavs have never been to central Europe. Their ancestral home is the east of Ukraine and the West of Russia - the Yukhnov and Milograd culture, which is directly descended from the Sredniy Stog + some kind of migration of farmers. The last direct descendants of the first Slavs are southwestern Russians and part of the central Russians. Eastern and southern Ukrainians are mixed with southwestern Europeans, most likely in the past native speakers of Romance languages. Such as Moldovans and Romanians. Belarusians have a strong Baltic pool.
2. The Scandinavians really have a little more farmers than the Russians, But the Scandinavians themselves are quite unique among the Germans, like the Russians among the Slavs. This uniqueness connects Russians directly with the ancestors of the Slavs. Perhaps this information will annoy our western partners. But I will say even more. Recently, the hypothesis of the origin of Indo-Europeans from northeast Europe, that is, from the territory of northern Russia, is the hypothesis of Professor Klein ... Most likely, the first Indo-European languages ​​are EHG. (IMHO). Indeed, eastern hypotheses will annoy Europeans from the west of Europe. But it is necessary to change stereotypical outdated thinking.

The largest advance of the Slavs to Germany / Lower Saxony, Wendland and Ukrainians are also Slavs but a bit more Balkans, Vlachs live in several territories Poland and Ukraine / Galicia, Bosnia ... But have not changed the whole gene pool of Ukrainians. Maybe some in Ukraine have a Y-DNA or Mtdna which is typical for Vlachs but nevertheless most of it is Slavic

AlexRus
12-03-2019, 10:54 AM
The largest advance of the Slavs to Germany / Lower Saxony, Wendland and Ukrainians are also Slavs but a bit more Balkans, Vlachs live in several territories Poland and Ukraine / Galicia, Bosnia ... But have not changed the whole gene pool of Ukrainians. Maybe some in Ukraine have a Y-DNA or Mtdna which is typical for Vlachs but nevertheless most of it is Slavic
If the Ukrainians are Slavic, then who are the Russians?

Alain
12-03-2019, 11:05 AM
If the Ukrainians are Slavic, then who are the Russians?

The Russians are also Slavs some more Uralic comes to the area and contacts on it but nevertheless Russians and Ukrainians are Slavs

AlexRus
12-03-2019, 11:16 AM
The Russians are also Slavs some more Uralic comes to the area and contacts on it but nevertheless Russians and Ukrainians are Slavs
Maybe on the contrary, the Slavs came to the Finns?
Are Bulgarians and Montenegrins also Slavs? Who came to them?

Alain
12-03-2019, 11:18 AM
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lj2NVD5VAndQ5xn57

Alain
12-03-2019, 11:19 AM
Here the genetic structure of Slavs

Alain
12-03-2019, 11:26 AM
Maybe on the contrary, the Slavs came to the Finns?
Are Bulgarians and Montenegrins also Slavs? Who came to them?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lj2NVD5VAndQ5xn57

Alain
12-03-2019, 11:51 AM
35116

artemv
12-03-2019, 01:58 PM
Honestly, I don’t understand what you are arguing with. I am writing about the continuity of the ancient inhabitants of Kievan culture, the inhabitants of Kievan Rus and the modern population of Ukraine. This continuity exists, but not complete, since in the entire history of Ukraine there have been many displacements and migrations of the people, including at a later time - after the Mongol devastation, when a population change took place in Kiev and eastern Ukraine.
Southwestern Russians did not experience a strong influence of migration, therefore, are genetically more similar to the first Slavs.

I am arguing with your claims about Russian and Ukrainian genetics.
First you insist that there was a mass migration from modern Romania to modern Ukraine, that has changed the gene pool of Ukrainians. I finally understood that you mean this migration happened in 13th century, after Mongol invasion.
Unfortunately, you fail to support your claims with any models.
Your second claim is about South Western Russia, as a region with the pure Slavic population.
Given historical facts I do not see any reason to believe that there was a genetic continuity in this region. The SouthWestern Russia was burned down several times. For example, Kursk has been burned down in 1238 (by Mongols), 1285 (by Nogai horde), was completely depopulated at the beginning of 16th century and rebuilt in a nearby location at 1582. At that time, criminals were sent from central Russia to Kursk region as a punishment.
This region, the South Western Russia is too close to the Steppe, and was a very dangerous region at a time when the Steppe was occupied by herders. At some point in history the whole region was almost completely depopulated, and later repopulated by Slavs from other regions. I do not see any reasons, nor historical or genetical to support your claim about South Western Russia, as a region with the most pure Slavic population.

Alain
12-03-2019, 02:06 PM
People are always absorbed, that's the History. Sometimes it sometimes has little or no genetic effect, depends on the process and the duration and who represents the majority

AlexRus
12-03-2019, 07:27 PM
35116
RuС at this PСA is not a Russian center, but Russians from Kargopol and the east of Kostroma - this is the North Russia, north of Vologda even. Why they were shoved into Russian centers is not clear to anyone. This PCA does not carry any useful information.

AlexRus
12-03-2019, 07:57 PM
I am arguing with your claims about Russian and Ukrainian genetics.
First you insist that there was a mass migration from modern Romania to modern Ukraine, that has changed the gene pool of Ukrainians. I finally understood that you mean this migration happened in 13th century, after Mongol invasion.
Unfortunately, you fail to support your claims with any models.
Your second claim is about South Western Russia, as a region with the pure Slavic population.
Given historical facts I do not see any reason to believe that there was a genetic continuity in this region. The SouthWestern Russia was burned down several times. For example, Kursk has been burned down in 1238 (by Mongols), 1285 (by Nogai horde), was completely depopulated at the beginning of 16th century and rebuilt in a nearby location at 1582. At that time, criminals were sent from central Russia to Kursk region as a punishment.
This region, the South Western Russia is too close to the Steppe, and was a very dangerous region at a time when the Steppe was occupied by herders. At some point in history the whole region was almost completely depopulated, and later repopulated by Slavs from other regions. I do not see any reasons, nor historical or genetical to support your claim about South Western Russia, as a region with the most pure Slavic population.
As for depopulation, this is lol. Otherwise, from whom for several centuries the Mongols collected a powerful tribute to Baskak Akhmat and the temnik Nogai. The fact that Kursk was completed in the 16th century from the south and center of Russia is true. But fundamentally this did not affect the genetics of the inhabitants of Kursk. Central Russians (western part) are also close to the pre-Slavs. But in Kursk there was no depopulation. By DNA, the population of Kursk is still located next to other cities in southwestern Russia, not far from Orel, Voronezh, Tula, Kaluga, with its own specific South Russian dialect.
We can expand the scope of the pre-Slavic population in the modern population of Eastern Europe. This can include not only central and southern Russians, but also northeastern Ukrainians and eastern Belarusians. Also, some Poles sporodically show similarities with this ancestral population of the Slavs.

Huck Finn
12-03-2019, 08:44 PM
RuС at this PСA is not a Russian center, but Russians from Kargopol and the east of Kostroma - this is the North Russia, north of Vologda even. Why they were shoved into Russian centers is not clear to anyone. This PCA does not carry any useful information.

According to the study itself RusC represents areas next to Upper Volga i.e. south-west of Rybinsk reservoir i.e. very much RusC, I'd say.

AlexRus
12-04-2019, 05:45 AM
According to the study itself RusC represents areas next to Upper Volga i.e. south-west of Rybinsk reservoir i.e. very much RusC, I'd say.
I did not understand what you said. In this PCA "RuC", these are the northern Russians of Kargopol (HGDP) and Unzha. That is, it is far north-east of the Rybinsk reservoir.. But I agree that the reference point of the central Russians looks spectacular for trolling.

Huck Finn
12-04-2019, 06:29 AM
In this PCA "RuC", these are the northern Russians of Kargopol (HGDP) and Unzha. That is, it is far north-east of the Rybinsk reservoir.

It seems to me that you're wrong, in terms of geographics. The sample is much more southern than you're apparently willing to believe but it's of course just your problem. However by looking at ADMIX results of the original study one can see that RusC is a mixed bag. Some look like RusS, some like RusN i.e. are getting close to Rus HGDP etc.

In regards to trolling, it is hard to say what your motives are but some part of that seems to be the never ending Moskalis vs. Hohhols dogfight over racial purity. Good luck with that.

Alain
12-04-2019, 08:05 AM
Well, if you do not like the Ukrainians, there are scientific facts, you Slavs as well as the Russians. A bit more direction Balkans but Vlachs are genetically similar to Bulgarians and Romania and not Ukrainians. An exception makes a city like Chernivtsi multiethnic many Romanians and Moldovans earlier was even their claim Ukrainians come from the Mongols even if you do not like the Ukrainians it is Slavs (Scientific knowledge)

martinmkp
12-05-2019, 06:01 AM
If I would add a little bit of AlexRus´s subjectivism, but from my point of view: "I really do not know, who the East Slavs, and Slavs in general, were. From linguistic point of view, yes, I do. But genetically, no..." (to make it more rude, please freely use instead "Slavs" also "Germanic tribes" or "Romans"). We in Central Europe feel a bit what does it mean "genetic mixing" through the centuries - and I suppose, Russians should know it as well, even better.

Sorry for my above written comments AlexRus, but you have started a very nice topic but we all are expecting some scientific data, charts, to prove what really you want to say.

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 10:10 AM
It seems to me that you're wrong, in terms of geographics. The sample is much more southern than you're apparently willing to believe but it's of course just your problem. However by looking at ADMIX results of the original study one can see that RusC is a mixed bag. Some look like RusS, some like RusN i.e. are getting close to Rus HGDP etc.

In regards to trolling, it is hard to say what your motives are but some part of that seems to be the never ending Moskalis vs. Hohhols dogfight over racial purity. Good luck with that.
You should rely on the source, and not on your own erroneous opinion.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820
Table M in S1 File
https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.s007
https://i.ibb.co/N644FJ9/hgdp.png (https://ibb.co/WWTTHMk)
upload photo (https://ru.imgbb.com/)
Here it is written that in the PCA for the RuC, the Kargopol sample (HGDP) in the amount of 10 people was used. Kargopol and Unzha is northern Russia. The authors of the work mistakenly used this data.
https://i.ibb.co/0KXpR8P/hgdp2.png (https://ibb.co/5k9Xgtq)
In addition to Kargopol, which was involved in the PCA, here is a complete list of the coordinates of the RuC sample:
https://i.ibb.co/T0mTsh7/hgdp23.png (https://ibb.co/6tgZksT)
We see a large sample of all the northern regions, all but the center of Russia.

RuN in this PCA is generally not quite Russian. These pomors are a sub-ethnicity.

They took samples of northern Russians, called them central Russians. They took the sub-ethnic group of the Finno-Ugric peoples and called them northern Russians. Here is the whole story of this PCA.

Huck Finn
12-05-2019, 01:21 PM
So Alex, what you're saying is that out of unspecified Rus samples available, the team chose the most RusN looking sample and classified that as RusC? This, even RusC was otherwise specified as being Kostroma, Smolensk and Tver? Besides that, they did not use the specific RusC panel at all? Really? What could have been the reason? I have to say that I'm getting curious. Some kind of a conspiracy, maybe?

I also wonder why the team then chose to study IBD by excluding Archangelsk, Kostroma and Pinega. Or, would you say that they're lying here, if they also were cooking the book in regards to PCA and IBD is really based on Pinega only?

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 07:36 PM
So Alex, what you're saying is that out of unspecified Rus samples available, the team chose the most RusN looking sample and classified that as RusC? This, even RusC was otherwise specified as being Kostroma, Smolensk and Tver? Besides that, they did not use the specific RusC panel at all? Really? What could have been the reason? I have to say that I'm getting curious. Some kind of a conspiracy, maybe?

I also wonder why the team then chose to study IBD by excluding Archangelsk, Kostroma and Pinega. Or, would you say that they're lying here, if they also were cooking the book in regards to PCA and IBD is really based on Pinega only?
We talked with this "team." These people answered - we don’t know why samples of northern Russians were used in PCA RuC, but they were really used. This decision was made by one Ukrainian Jewish origin Alena Kushnyarovich. In RuC there is no Central Russian at all !
Dear Finnish man. You must understand the following.
1. RuС is the sample indicated in the table. You cannot find other information. RuС are Western Russian + Northern Russians with Finnish roots. You should not have hope that most the Russians are close to the Finns.
2. This work was conceived by the liberals during the Ukrainian conflict. The political goals there are clear - trolling.
3. I respect the Finns and appreciate their contribution to Russian ethnogenesis. I myself have Finnish ancestors, judging by my DNA. You should know that the name Rus is a Finnish name given to the Slavs and Varangians from the Finns.

Coldmountains
12-05-2019, 07:45 PM
I modelled Russians as mix of different IA and MA pops. Avar_Hungary_Szolad (both samples) represent Slavic-like admixture. Baltic_EST_BA:0LS11_1 represents Balto-Uralic-like ancestry.
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic:V11_1 represents more classical Baltic-like ancestry. Some of the Baltic-like ancestry was probably also brought by Proto-Slavs so Slavic-derived ancestry is probably higher


arget: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 1.5284% / 0.01528421
49.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
21.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
20.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
4.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 1.6700% / 0.01670028
63.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
19.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
8.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
7.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
1.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 1.6235% / 0.01623465
69.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
20.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
7.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
2.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
0.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 1.7881% / 0.01788062
37.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
34.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
29.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.8847% / 0.01884698
63.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
35.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
0.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
0.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 1.7231% / 0.01723135
50.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
32.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
7.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
5.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
4.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.5044% / 0.01504351
77.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
3.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.2 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic



HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.0 65569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1,0.133173,0.132019,0.065996,0.0 49419,0.039392,0.024542,0.00893,0.008769,0.003886,-0.013668,-0.00065,-0.007343,0.008325,0.014863,-0.012486,0.005304,-0.005346,0.00228,0.002388,0.002126,-0.001497,-0.002844,0.007888,-0.006748,0.000838
Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic:0LS10_1,0.124067,0.092413,0.0 98051,0.10013,0.035699,0.034582,0.004935,0.020768,-0.011249,-0.042279,0.01153,-0.02203,0.030029,0.00289,-0.007193,0.007558,0.027641,-0.002534,0.002765,0.006628,-0.000125,0.00371,-0.001972,-0.01687,0.000599
SVK_Poprad_MA:DA119,0.124067,0.135065,0.059585,0.0 43282,0.041238,0.017291,-0.001175,0.002769,0.002659,-0.00328,-0.003248,0.007044,-0.012487,-0.006606,0.0057,0.020154,0.002217,0.000127,-0.000377,-0.00075,-0.00287,0.004081,0.000986,0.021328,0.000599
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic:V11_1,0.134311,0.117801,0.085 229,0.090763,0.041238,0.039602,0.009635,0.013846,-0.000409,-0.02934,0.00065,-0.023829,0.022002,0.023809,-0.004886,-0.007955,0.014603,-0.000887,0.001885,0.008504,0.005116,-0.007914,0.002958,-0.009881,-0.001916
FIN_Levanluhta_IA,0.1044325,-0.036051,0.1057825,0.0792965,-0.0122328,0.008576,0.006169,0.0141918,0.0037328,-0.0303422,0.033046,-0.0083175,0.019772,-0.0182695,-0.0065485,-0.0034805,-3.28e-05,-0.0031672,-0.0073848,0.0008442,0.016658,-0.0018547,-0.0016945,0.004097,0.0008382
Sarmatian_RUS_Urals,0.1098909,0.0465297,0.0380551, 0.0644825,-0.0251513,0.0248466,-0.0019868,-0.0013005,-0.0271644,-0.0351551,-0.0041335,-0.0029156,0.0007163,-0.0178408,0.0210491,0.012367,-0.0073015,-0.0017736,-0.0015541,-0.001228,-0.0117974,-0.000416,-0.0015687,0.0053457,-0.0024929
ISL_Viking_Age_Norse,0.124826,0.1262643,0.0820863, 0.0692297,0.0405203,0.020824,0.0069717,0.0119997,0 .001159,-0.010509,0.0014073,0.0005997,-0.0006443,-0.0062847,0.0200867,0.009458,0.0038683,0.0025337,0 .0042317,0.0048773,0.003577,0.0060593,-0.0010683,0.0209267,-0.0003193

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 07:54 PM
I do not care about the purity of Russians from Finnish roots. I take care that some deceitful people try to separate the central Russians from the southern Russian. However, this is one and the same. Ukrainians here are a foreign element. Northern Russians are the same as southern Russians, but with increased Finnish influence. Northern Russians are no more than 10-20% of the total Russian population of Russia.

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 07:56 PM
Avar_Hungary_Szolad
You are joking? The Slavs did not go beyond Belarus to the west. Only the language. This avar is just a central medieval European.

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 08:16 PM
distance%=1.6845"

Alex_scaled

HUN_Avar_Szolad,67
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic,14.8
Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic,9.2
FIN_Levanluhta_IA,5.6
Sarmatian_RUS_Urals,3.4

Coldmountains
12-05-2019, 08:23 PM
You are joking? The Slavs did not go beyond Belarus to the west. Only the language. This avar is just a central medieval European.

well Avar_Hungary_Szolad_V2 is the best we have for ancient Slavs for now. It is also the most eastern shifted ancient slavic we have. But yes it is probably not an ideal reference and some of the extra baltic-like ancestry Russians show in this models is likely from a bit more northeastern shifted Proto-Slavs.

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 08:24 PM
Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.5044% / 0.01504351
77.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
3.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.2 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Do you use a model for Ukrainians identical to the northern Slavs? Don't you know that Ukrainians have a huge influence from the southern peoples. Is it hiding in avars? You need to use the Balkans. Otherwise, it is profanity, not a calculator.

AlexRus
12-05-2019, 08:28 PM
well Avar_Hungary_Szolad_V2 is the best we have for ancient Slavs for now. It is also the most eastern shifted ancient slavic we have. But yes it is probably not an ideal reference and some of the extra baltic-like ancestry Russians show in this models is likely from a bit more northeastern shifted Proto-Slavs.
Yes, I agree, we do not have suitable samples because of the backwardness of Russian science. But Avars are no longer proto-Slavs. These people came from eastern Europe and assimilated local Europeans. This calculator demonstrates well who of their Eastern Slavs is closer to the Central Europeans, and who is closer to the Balts. I think that the first Slavs are something in between.

Huck Finn
12-05-2019, 10:24 PM
We talked with this "team." These people answered - we don’t know why samples of northern Russians were used in PCA RuC, but they were really used. This decision was made by one Ukrainian Jewish origin Alena Kushnyarovich. In RuC there is no Central Russian at all !
Dear Finnish man. You must understand the following.
1. RuС is the sample indicated in the table. You cannot find other information. RuС are Western Russian + Northern Russians with Finnish roots. You should not have hope that most the Russians are close to the Finns.
2. This work was conceived by the liberals during the Ukrainian conflict. The political goals there are clear - trolling.
3. I respect the Finns and appreciate their contribution to Russian ethnogenesis. I myself have Finnish ancestors, judging by my DNA. You should know that the name Rus is a Finnish name given to the Slavs and Varangians from the Finns.

So this is really about Jewish-Ukrainian liberalist act of conspiracy. People behind this trolling are in some cases even members of the Russian Academy of Sciences such as Oleg Balanovsky. You have not, on the other hand, just misunderstood the study, including the PCA layout in terms of samples they used. Fine, case closed.

It's nice to hear that you respect Finns, I also like Russians. I however also like Ukrainians and Jews, even liberal ones, no need to take any sides here. I hope you don't mind.

Alain
12-06-2019, 06:58 AM
I modelled Russians as mix of different IA and MA pops. Avar_Hungary_Szolad (both samples) represent Slavic-like admixture. Baltic_EST_BA:0LS11_1 represents Balto-Uralic-like ancestry.
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic:V11_1 represents more classical Baltic-like ancestry. Some of the Baltic-like ancestry was probably also brought by Proto-Slavs so Slavic-derived ancestry is probably higher


arget: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 1.5284% / 0.01528421
49.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
21.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
20.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
4.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 1.6700% / 0.01670028
63.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
19.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
8.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
7.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
1.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 1.6235% / 0.01623465
69.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
20.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
7.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
2.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
0.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 1.7881% / 0.01788062
37.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
34.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
29.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.8847% / 0.01884698
63.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
35.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
0.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
0.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 1.7231% / 0.01723135
50.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
32.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
7.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
5.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
4.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.5044% / 0.01504351
77.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
3.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.2 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

I am a bit irritated so I know since the IA time in the Baltic area an Uralic admixture exists ??

Alain
12-06-2019, 07:00 AM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-51045-8

Alain
12-06-2019, 07:29 AM
35182

AlexRus
12-06-2019, 07:48 AM
So this is really about Jewish-Ukrainian liberalist act of conspiracy. People behind this trolling are in some cases even members of the Russian Academy of Sciences such as Oleg Balanovsky. You have not, on the other hand, just misunderstood the study, including the PCA layout in terms of samples they used. Fine, case closed.

It's nice to hear that you respect Finns, I also like Russians. I however also like Ukrainians and Jews, even liberal ones, no need to take any sides here. I hope you don't mind.
Balanovsky reluctantly participated in the discussion of this article. He had to answer numerous questions. He replied: "I did not collect this sample." The sample was supposedly not geographic, but dialectical. Pskov, Smolensk and Unzha belong to the Central Russian dialects. Geographically and in fact, Smolensk is the west of Russia, Pskov is the north-west, and Unzha is the north-east. Kargopol is a clear north with northern Russian dialects. If you remove Kargopol and Unzhu, RuC will merge with RuS.

RuN is Pinega. These people are subethnic. Their number is several hundred people. I see no reason to choose Pinega as the definition of the northern Russians.

Conspiracy? Listen, I absolutely don't care. The only thing I don’t understand is why these trolls consider Finnish ancestors to be something not honorable, and sometimes racially inferior.

Huck Finn
12-06-2019, 09:26 AM
The only thing I don’t understand is why these trolls consider Finnish ancestors to be something not honorable, and sometimes racially inferior.

Because it works? At least some Russians seem to be incapabable to accept their roots, including all kind of assimilated people and language shifters. I don't however really know what racial purity helps, if for instance roads in Ukraine are if possible even in worse condition than in Russia.

AlexRus
12-06-2019, 09:05 PM
Because it works? At least some Russians seem to be incapabable to accept their roots, including all kind of assimilated people and language shifters. I don't however really know what racial purity helps, if for instance roads in Ukraine are if possible even in worse condition than in Russia.
Why do you think that only “some Russians” cannot do this? When I said that Ukrainians are not pure Slavs, some Ukrainian users did not like this very much.

artemv
12-07-2019, 02:38 AM
I modelled Russians as mix of different IA and MA pops. Avar_Hungary_Szolad (both samples) represent Slavic-like admixture. Baltic_EST_BA:0LS11_1 represents Balto-Uralic-like ancestry.
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic:V11_1 represents more classical Baltic-like ancestry. Some of the Baltic-like ancestry was probably also brought by Proto-Slavs so Slavic-derived ancestry is probably higher


arget: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 1.5284% / 0.01528421
49.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
21.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
20.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
4.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 1.6700% / 0.01670028
63.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
19.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
8.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
7.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
1.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 1.6235% / 0.01623465
69.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
20.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
7.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
2.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
0.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 1.7881% / 0.01788062
37.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
34.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
29.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.8847% / 0.01884698
63.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
35.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
0.6 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
0.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 1.7231% / 0.01723135
50.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
32.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
7.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
5.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
4.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.5044% / 0.01504351
77.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.8 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
3.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.2 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic

Thank you.
But Alex wrote about Romanian ancestry in Ukrainians, and here we see no proxy for Romanian-like ancestry and no comparison to Romanians.

AlexRus
12-07-2019, 03:01 AM
Thank you.
But Alex wrote about Romanian ancestry in Ukrainians, and here we see no proxy for Romanian-like ancestry and no comparison to Romanians.
not Romanians, but have a Vlach mixture, which makes them look like Moldavians.
enjoy
distance%=1.5118"

Ukrainian

HUN_Avar_Szolad,50.8
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic,26.2
Romanian,18.8
Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic,2.6
Sarmatian_RUS_Urals,1.6

Huck Finn
12-07-2019, 07:41 AM
Why do you think that only “some Russians” cannot do this? When I said that Ukrainians are not pure Slavs, some Ukrainian users did not like this very much.

Anyone can do that, of course and many do. However I have to say that sometimes I get a feeling that Russians do need help in terms of their PR, also related to racial image. The thing is that empire building very often is connected to assimilation and the outcome is a mixed population. Let's us for example imagine that modern Russia would have a president with some Finnic roots. Then he would have an affair with a Russian Tatar and get a child. Now the child of this president of Russia, definitely having lots of or mostly Ukrainian type of genetic heritage too, is he or she Slavic or not? Or, simply Russian, speaking a Slavic language?

Thing is that Rus state', as far as I know, was multiethnic even from the day one when Finnic speakers, Scandinavians and Slavs started to mingle together in the valley of Volkhov river. Rus' was never just "Slavic", in terms of genetics, also because Slavic after all is a linguistic term. Even the original tribal Rus', based on Rurik and his tribesmen, was an outcome a a mixture event, it seems.

AlexRus
12-07-2019, 08:38 AM
Anyone can do that, of course and many do. However I have to say that sometimes I get a feeling that Russians do need help in terms of their PR, also related to racial image. The thing is that empire building very often is connected to assimilation and the outcome is a mixed population. Let's us for example imagine that modern Russia would have a president with some Finnic roots. Then he would have an affair with a Russian Tatar and get a child. Now the child of this president of Russia, definitely having lots of or mostly Ukrainian type of genetic heritage too, is he or she Slavic or not? Or, simply Russian, speaking a Slavic language?

Thing is that Rus state', as far as I know, was multiethnic even from the day one when Finnic speakers, Scandinavians and Slavs started to mingle together in the valley of Volkhov river. Rus' was never just "Slavic", in terms of genetics, also because Slavic after all is a linguistic term. Even the original tribal Rus', based on Rurik and his tribesmen, was an outcome a a mixture event, it seems.
Imperial construction and assimilation are not directly connected. All assimilation of Finns in Russia did not take place in the Russian Empire, but in the Novgorod Republic. The Slavs easily came into contact with tribes standing at the level of their mentality and development. The Finns were just such a tribe. The Tatars did not mix with the Russians, only dynastic marriages and marriages in the nobility after the capture of Kazan.

Yes, true, Russians were originally northern Russians = Slavs, Finns, Balts, Scandinavians. The southern Russian Slavs entered this integration later than all, only after armed resistance. But the mixture of the Slavs and the Finns in Volhov was not of an imperial character. The mixed began as a result of economic integration. The Slavs and Finns together captured the southern markets of Khazaria and Baghdad, sailing along the Volga. Scandinavian merchants joined them. The Novgorod Republic was a democratic republic, people of different nationalities were united not by an ethnic group, but by common economic interests.


Then he would have an affair with a Russian Tatar and get a child. Now the child of this president of Russia, definitely having lots of or mostly Ukrainian type of genetic heritage too, is he or she Slavic or not? Or, simply Russian, speaking a Slavic language?
Ethnicity is determined by self-awareness. If a person has Russian + Finnish + Tatar blood, if this person considers himself Russian, then he will be Russian. Everything is simple at first glance. However, the world is very complex. And practice shows that all people of mixed origin have a double identity. In Russia, a new term has been created for "non-Slavs" - a Rossianin. That is, there are Russians, these are Slavs and there are Rossianins - no slavs, this is any citizen of Russia or a mixed person who cannot determine his nationality.

In general, the ethnonym Russian has been transformed for many centuries. Initially, the Russian people called the symbiosis of Slavs, Finns and Scandinavians in the north of Russia. Then this term was adopted by the inhabitants of central Ukraine, then this term spread to Central Russia and Western Ukraine. Today, only the Slavic inhabitants of Russia are called this ethnonym.

Coldmountains
12-07-2019, 01:05 PM
Thank you.
But Alex wrote about Romanian ancestry in Ukrainians, and here we see no proxy for Romanian-like ancestry and no comparison to Romanians.

well Romanians are a modern population and show a lot of Slavic-admixture. It makes more sense to use ancient samples like BGR_IA (Bronze Age Bulgaria) or Scythian_Moldova to extract pre-Slavic balkan admixture. Romanian-like admixture is relavant more in the southwest where some Ukrainians cluster indeed with Romanians or Croats but most Ukrainians cluster with other East Slavs


Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.4541% / 0.01454055 | ADC: 0.25x
74.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
17.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
3.8 Scythian_MDA
3.6 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
1.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 1.3539% / 0.01353935
58.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
25.4 Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic
8.0 BGR_IA
5.0 Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic
3.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Distance to: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
0.02296676 Ukrainian
0.02859448 Russian_Voronez
0.03014569 Russian_Orel
0.03268624 Russian_Smolensk
0.03344336 Russian_Kursk
0.04263902 Russian_Tver
0.05887163 Russian_Kostroma
0.08760157 Russian_Pinega


Distance to: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.02541556 Russian_Voronez
0.02613675 Russian_Smolensk
0.02663861 Russian_Orel
0.02674336 Ukrainian
0.02906489 Russian_Kursk
0.03297188 Russian_Tver
0.05028887 Russian_Kostroma
0.07613403 Russian_Pinega

Coldmountains
12-07-2019, 01:10 PM
not Romanians, but have a Vlach mixture, which makes them look like Moldavians.
enjoy
distance%=1.5118"

Ukrainian

HUN_Avar_Szolad,50.8
Baltic_EST_IA_Baltic,26.2
Romanian,18.8
Baltic_EST_IA_Uralic,2.6
Sarmatian_RUS_Urals,1.6

well Ukrainians are closer to anyone in North and Central Europe than to Romanians or Moldavians. They are genetically not close at all
istance to: Ukrainian
0.01028002 Polish
0.01142048 Russian_Orel
0.01174077 Russian_Voronez
0.01623328 Russian_Kursk
0.01680295 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.01907950 Belarusian
0.01912557 Russian_Smolensk
0.02265642 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02498923 Lithuanian_PA
0.02500452 Slovakian
0.02574369 Russian_Tver
0.02914822 Lithuanian_VA
0.03069603 Czech
0.03543231 Lithuanian_RA
0.03780652 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03858569 Estonian
0.03922489 Hungarian
0.03933290 German_East
0.04007214 Slovenian
0.04043956 Cossack_Kuban
0.04104192 Croatian
0.04363491 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04545196 Russian_Kostroma
0.04584871 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04696192 Latvian
0.04759996 Mordovian
0.05038683 Bosnian
0.05126279 Ingrian
0.05129929 Austrian
0.05251208 Swedish
0.05345510 Finnish
0.05644564 German
0.06373734 Dutch
0.06459509 Karelian
0.06552955 Montenegrin
0.06575129 Icelandic
0.06578721 Norwegian
0.06656760 Vepsian
0.06719128 Serbian
0.06826320 Shetlandic
0.06897701 Orcadian
0.06959644 Finnish_East
0.07023299 Scottish
0.07083696 Welsh
0.07142251 English
0.07339546 French_Alsace
0.07368470 English_Cornwall
0.07387119 Irish
0.07405134 Romanian
0.07446648 French_Brittany
0.07532334 French_Nord
0.07542171 Belgian
0.07604668 Russian_Pinega
0.07812241 Macedonian
0.07932598 Swiss_German
0.08210549 Bulgarian
0.08342890 French_Paris
0.08573911 Moldavian

AlexRus
12-07-2019, 08:58 PM
well Ukrainians are closer to anyone in North and Central Europe than to Romanians or Moldavians. They are genetically not close at all
istance to: Ukrainian

The average sample - “Ukrainian” does not make sense, like the average sample “Russian”. Ukrainians need to be divided into at least 5 different types.

Coldmountains
12-07-2019, 10:12 PM
The average sample - “Ukrainian” does not make sense, like the average sample “Russian”. Ukrainians need to be divided into at least 5 different types.



Non of the Ukrainian global25 samples is close to Romanians including the sample from Lviv which is rather Slovak-like

Distance to: Ukrainian:Ukrainian9
0.01866496 Russian_Smolensk
0.02156606 Belarusian
0.02551053 Russian_Voronez
0.02642812 Russian_Orel
0.02679224 Ukrainian
0.02884138 Polish
0.03027372 Russian_Kursk
0.03125849 Lithuanian_PA
0.03300498 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03446545 Lithuanian_VA
0.03461574 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03531584 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03673969 Lithuanian_RA
0.03760821 Russian_Tver
0.04145710 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04165991 Estonian
0.04205284 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04568234 Czech
0.04572301 Latvian
0.04726582 Slovakian
0.04981933 German_East
0.05354916 Slovenian
0.05413870 Russian_Kostroma
0.05442658 Hungarian
0.05534897 Croatian

Distance to: Ukrainian:UCH945_ukrainian_Tsherk
0.02512222 Slovakian
0.02970770 Ukrainian
0.03290574 Russian_Kursk
0.03342336 Cossack_Kuban
0.03374927 Russian_Orel
0.03390207 Polish
0.03495820 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03616188 Russian_Voronez
0.03793988 Russian_Tver
0.03808519 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03927115 Czech
0.04197555 Hungarian
0.04340094 Croatian
0.04486107 Belarusian
0.04490884 Russian_Smolensk
0.04564723 Lithuanian_PA
0.04587277 Slovenian
0.04779785 Lithuanian_VA
0.04881751 Bosnian
0.05014639 German_East
0.05037522 Mordovian
0.05097088 Austrian
0.05188841 Russian_Kostroma
0.05358752 Lithuanian_RA
0.05473798 Estonian

Distance to: Ukrainian:ULV293_ukrainian_Lviv
0.02452865 Slovakian
0.02453097 Ukrainian
0.02690672 Polish
0.02781841 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02964549 Russian_Orel
0.02973988 Czech
0.03123408 Russian_Voronez
0.03183051 Russian_Kursk
0.03320090 Hungarian
0.03385266 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03388064 Slovenian
0.03554518 Croatian
0.03798656 Russian_Smolensk
0.03830573 Belarusian
0.03938367 Russian_Tver
0.03998597 German_East
0.04196677 Bosnian
0.04261721 Lithuanian_PA
0.04344275 Cossack_Kuban
0.04398551 Austrian
0.04711733 Lithuanian_VA
0.05142295 German
0.05184084 Mordovian
0.05243709 Swedish
0.05277056 Lithuanian_RA

AlexRus
12-08-2019, 12:35 PM
Non of the Ukrainian global25 samples is close to Romanians including the sample from Lviv which is rather Slovak-like

Distance to: Ukrainian:Ukrainian9
0.01866496 Russian_Smolensk
0.02156606 Belarusian
0.02551053 Russian_Voronez
0.02642812 Russian_Orel
0.02679224 Ukrainian
0.02884138 Polish
0.03027372 Russian_Kursk
0.03125849 Lithuanian_PA
0.03300498 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03446545 Lithuanian_VA
0.03461574 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03531584 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03673969 Lithuanian_RA
0.03760821 Russian_Tver
0.04145710 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04165991 Estonian
0.04205284 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04568234 Czech
0.04572301 Latvian
0.04726582 Slovakian
0.04981933 German_East
0.05354916 Slovenian
0.05413870 Russian_Kostroma
0.05442658 Hungarian
0.05534897 Croatian

Distance to: Ukrainian:UCH945_ukrainian_Tsherk
0.02512222 Slovakian
0.02970770 Ukrainian
0.03290574 Russian_Kursk
0.03342336 Cossack_Kuban
0.03374927 Russian_Orel
0.03390207 Polish
0.03495820 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03616188 Russian_Voronez
0.03793988 Russian_Tver
0.03808519 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03927115 Czech
0.04197555 Hungarian
0.04340094 Croatian
0.04486107 Belarusian
0.04490884 Russian_Smolensk
0.04564723 Lithuanian_PA
0.04587277 Slovenian
0.04779785 Lithuanian_VA
0.04881751 Bosnian
0.05014639 German_East
0.05037522 Mordovian
0.05097088 Austrian
0.05188841 Russian_Kostroma
0.05358752 Lithuanian_RA
0.05473798 Estonian

Distance to: Ukrainian:ULV293_ukrainian_Lviv
0.02452865 Slovakian
0.02453097 Ukrainian
0.02690672 Polish
0.02781841 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02964549 Russian_Orel
0.02973988 Czech
0.03123408 Russian_Voronez
0.03183051 Russian_Kursk
0.03320090 Hungarian
0.03385266 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03388064 Slovenian
0.03554518 Croatian
0.03798656 Russian_Smolensk
0.03830573 Belarusian
0.03938367 Russian_Tver
0.03998597 German_East
0.04196677 Bosnian
0.04261721 Lithuanian_PA
0.04344275 Cossack_Kuban
0.04398551 Austrian
0.04711733 Lithuanian_VA
0.05142295 German
0.05184084 Mordovian
0.05243709 Swedish
0.05277056 Lithuanian_RA
G25 is not related to reality. Toy for children. The Ukrainians of Lviv are not Romanians, but Slavs having a Romanian and other southern European admixture, including the Slovak one. Stop shooting the G25, that's a laugh.

Dorkymon
12-09-2019, 12:38 PM
well Ukrainians are closer to anyone in North and Central Europe than to Romanians or Moldavians. They are genetically not close at all
istance to: Ukrainian
0.01028002 Polish
0.01142048 Russian_Orel
0.01174077 Russian_Voronez
0.01623328 Russian_Kursk
0.01680295 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.01907950 Belarusian
0.01912557 Russian_Smolensk
0.02265642 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02498923 Lithuanian_PA
0.02500452 Slovakian
0.02574369 Russian_Tver
0.02914822 Lithuanian_VA
0.03069603 Czech
0.03543231 Lithuanian_RA
0.03780652 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03858569 Estonian
0.03922489 Hungarian
0.03933290 German_East
0.04007214 Slovenian
0.04043956 Cossack_Kuban
0.04104192 Croatian
0.04363491 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04545196 Russian_Kostroma
0.04584871 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04696192 Latvian
0.04759996 Mordovian
0.05038683 Bosnian
0.05126279 Ingrian
0.05129929 Austrian
0.05251208 Swedish
0.05345510 Finnish
0.05644564 German
0.06373734 Dutch
0.06459509 Karelian
0.06552955 Montenegrin
0.06575129 Icelandic
0.06578721 Norwegian
0.06656760 Vepsian
0.06719128 Serbian
0.06826320 Shetlandic
0.06897701 Orcadian
0.06959644 Finnish_East
0.07023299 Scottish
0.07083696 Welsh
0.07142251 English
0.07339546 French_Alsace
0.07368470 English_Cornwall
0.07387119 Irish
0.07405134 Romanian
0.07446648 French_Brittany
0.07532334 French_Nord
0.07542171 Belgian
0.07604668 Russian_Pinega
0.07812241 Macedonian
0.07932598 Swiss_German
0.08210549 Bulgarian
0.08342890 French_Paris
0.08573911 Moldavian

Just FYI, all Romanian samples on G25 come from 2 Western counties beyond the Carpathians (those that start with "G" - Gorj, "A" - Alba). Moldovans are even more biased, since all 10 samples are taken from one district, Stefan Voda, on the Southeastern edge of the country.

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 05:35 PM
Before that both Poland and Ukraine were parts of Russian Empire for about 100 years.

This is not quite accurate, as South-Western Ukraine (Lviv, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Zakarpattia) was never part of the Russian Empire.

Most of it was in the Austrian Empire - East Galicia. Bukovina and Carpathian Ruthenia were also not Russian:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/HistRegUkr.jpg

And Poland was of course divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria with only ca. 1/2 of ethnic Polish population living under Russia. Most of the mixing and assimilation between Poles and Ukrainians was likely taking place in the Austrian Empire, as ethnic groups were more intermixed there than in Russian areas further north.

This is a fragment of my map of the distribution of ethnic Poles in early 1900s, showing the Polish-Ukrainian ethnic borderland. In Russian-controlled areas, Poles were very few in numbers (under 20% in every county) to the east of the Bug River. The borderland was located in counties just west of the Bug River:

In East Galicia, the area with mixed ethnic groups was much larger, there was a "Polish island" as far east as Ternopil:

https://i.imgur.com/y5IW033.png

That said, Polish-organized colonization of Ukraine from the 1300s to the 1700s probably played a more important role.

Much of Galicia, Volhynia and Podolia became Polish already in the 1340s and King Casimir III organized colonization / "Landesausbau" of that area.

Later, when Poland inherited Central Ukraine from Lithuania in 1569, the area was very sparsely populated (Mongol & Tatar raids contributed to that).

Under Polish administration people were moving to that sparsely populated Central Ukraine from areas further west. Many of them were ethnic Ruthenians, but also Polish peasants many of whom became Ruthenized and converted to Orthodoxy during the period of Cossack Rebellions and subsequent Polish-Muscovite Wars.

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 07:08 PM
Are there any estimates for population size of Eastern Ukraine around years 1570-1600 or so?

These are estimates for the Polish-controlled parts of Ukraine based on year 1580 tax censuses:

Population density ranged from approximately just over 2 per km2 in Kiev Voivodeship to just over 14 per km2 in Ruthenian (Lviv) Voivodeship:

Year 1580 population size - most recent estimate (older lower estimate):

Chelm Voivodeship - 100101 inhabitants (66617) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82m_Land
Belz Voivodeship - 92314 inhabitants (56117) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belz_Voivodeship
Ruthenian Voivodeship - 642734 inhabitants (449914) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_Voivodeship
Volhynian Voivodeship - 441000 inhabitants (293780) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynian_Voivodeship_(1569%E2%80%931795)
Podolian Voivodeship - 147000 inhabitants (97736) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podolian_Voivodeship
Bratslav Voivodeship - 400000 inhabitants (311340) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brac%C5%82aw_Voivodeship
Kiev Voivodeship - 450000 inhabitants (234040) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Voivodeship

Map of population density for each region (based on higher estimates):

https://i.imgur.com/KOySba5.png

^^^
In late 1500s and 1600s there was a constant flow of migrants from densely populated western regions to sparsely populated Kiev Voivodeship.

artemv
01-01-2020, 07:54 PM
This is not quite accurate, as South-Western Ukraine (Lviv, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Zakarpattia) was never part of the Russian Empire.

Most of it was in the Austrian Empire - East Galicia. Bukovina and Carpathian Ruthenia were also not Russian:

Thank you, this is correct - few parts of modern Ukraine were never part of Russian Empire.
Just didn't want to go too much into details while explaining some basics to a person from the West, who knows not so much about the region.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/HistRegUkr.jpg

This map of Ukrainian regions is very strange.
I've never heard that North-Eastern Ukraine, around Chernigov was called Zaporozha. Just look where Zaporizhia city is located.
Term Edisan was only used in Osman/Crimean times, before Russian Empire defeated the Crimeans.
Term Taurida during Russian Empire times was only used as a synonim to Crimea.
Term Meotida is a very ancient one, it comes from times of Greek colonization, even before Slavs. It was not used in 19th century, at least was not commonly used.



And Poland was of course divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria with only ca. 1/2 of ethnic Polish population living under Russia.

Yes, Poland was divided at the end of 18th century, between Russia, Prussia and Austria. But after Napoleon's defeat the borders were changed and Russia got more territories. Only in 19th century Russian Empire got territories that made historican Polish heartland, including Warsaw itselt.
When you state about 1/2 of ethnic Polish population you mean pre-Napoleon borders, or post Napoleon borders?


Most of the mixing and assimilation between Poles and Ukrainians was likely taking place in the Austrian Empire, as ethnic groups were more intermixed there than in Russian areas further north.

I've never heart about that. Why did it happen that Polish and Ukrainians mixed in Austrian territories more than in Russian Empire?



That said, Polish-organized colonization of Ukraine from the 1300s to the 1700s probably played a more important role.

Much of Galicia, Volhynia and Podolia became Polish already in the 1340s and King Casimir III organized colonization / "Landesausbau" of that area.

Later, when Poland inherited Central Ukraine from Lithuania in 1569, the area was very sparsely populated (Mongol & Tatar raids contributed to that).

Under Polish administration people were moving to that sparsely populated Central Ukraine from areas further west. Many of them were ethnic Ruthenians, but also Polish peasants many of whom became Ruthenized and converted to Orthodoxy during the period of Cossack Rebellions and subsequent Polish-Muscovite Wars.
Very interesting story. I've heard that the population of what is now Central Ukraine was very low at 16th century (as well as neighbouring regions of Russia, like Kursk, Bryansk e.t.c.). But I've never heard about Polish colonization of the territory. Always thougt that Polish just made a small group of noble landowners or city dwellers, but peasantry was Orthodox (later also Uniates).

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 07:59 PM
But after Napoleon's defeat the borders were changed and Russia got more territories.

Yes, but even after that change, Russian-controlled territories contained only ca. 1/2 of the ethnic Polish population.

Before 1815 Russian Partition did not contain any parts of present-day Poland except for the Białowieża Forest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82owie%C5%BCa_Forest

Pretty much the Curzon Line = 1795 western border of Russia (except for Galicia) = modern border of Poland:

https://i.imgur.com/q40l1yV.png


When you state about 1/2 of ethnic Polish population you mean pre-Napoleon borders, or post Napoleon borders?

Post-Napoleon borders. Before Napoleon the great majority of ethnic Polish population was under Prussia and Austria.

Just to mention that the Curzon Line is pretty much identical to Russian border between 1795 and Napoleon's times.


But I've never heard about Polish colonization of the territory.

Polish-sponsored colonization, but of course not all of the settlers were ethnic Poles.

Many were surely Ruthenians from further west, from what is today Western Ukraine.

artemv
01-01-2020, 08:08 PM
Are there any estimates for population size of Eastern Ukraine around years 1570-1600 or so?

These are estimates for the Polish-controlled parts of Ukraine based on year 1580 tax censuses:

Population density ranged from approximately just over 2 per km2 in Kiev Voivodeship to just over 14 per km2 in Ruthenian (Lviv) Voivodeship:

Year 1580 population size - most recent estimate (older lower estimate):

Chelm Voivodeship - 100101 inhabitants (66617) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82m_Land
Belz Voivodeship - 92314 inhabitants (56117) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belz_Voivodeship
Ruthenian Voivodeship - 642734 inhabitants (449914) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_Voivodeship
Volhynian Voivodeship - 441000 inhabitants (293780) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynian_Voivodeship_(1569%E2%80%931795)
Podolian Voivodeship - 147000 inhabitants (97736) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podolian_Voivodeship
Bratslav Voivodeship - 400000 inhabitants (311340) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brac%C5%82aw_Voivodeship
Kiev Voivodeship - 450000 inhabitants (234040) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Voivodeship

Map of population density for each region (based on higher estimates):

https://i.imgur.com/KOySba5.png

^^^
In late 1500s and 1600s there was a constant flow of migrants from densely populated western regions to sparsely populated Kiev Voivodeship.

I do not know about population estimates. Wow, that makes just a bit more than 2 millions.
But I guess that population density in Kiev Voivodeship significantly varied. Most people likely lived in the North-Western part, around Zhytomyr and Kiev, while territories closer to Crimea were almost empty.

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 08:11 PM
Only in 19th century Russian Empire got territories that made historican Polish heartland, including Warsaw itselt.

Indeed. As of 1795-1807 (when Napoleon created the Duchy of Warsaw) all of historical Polish heartland was controlled by Prussia and Austria.

So obviously when I mentioned ca. 1/2 of the ethnic Polish population living under Russian ruled, I meant the period between 1815 and 1914.

Before 1815 Russia controlled a much smaller percentage of the ethnic Polish population, pretty much only "Kresowiaks" (= Poles from Kresy):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy


But I guess that population density in Kiev Voivodeship significantly varied. Most people likely lived in the North-Western part, around Zhytomyr and Kiev, while territories closer to Crimea were almost empty.

Yes I agree. Those areas in the south-east were known as "Wild Fields" (Dzikie Pola) and it was mostly steppe with various forts and outposts.


I've never heard that North-Eastern Ukraine, around Chernigov was called Zaporozha. Just look where Zaporizhia city is located.

I agree, that label there is not accurate (but for Western Ukraine that map was rather accurate). This map shows the real location of the region:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Ukraine-Zaporozzhya.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Ukraine-Zaporozzhya.png

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 08:27 PM
Wow, that makes just a bit more than 2 millions.

Yes, and I also have similar estimates for the rest of Poland

Based on the same 1580 tax census data, by voivodeship:

Region - abbreviation (see the map below) - population

Malbork Voivodeship - MB - 55032 inhabitants
Pomerelian Voivodeship - POM - 147565 inhabitants
Chelmno Voivodeship - CHM - 94706 inhabitants
Podlachian Voivodeship - PDL - 247225 inhabitants
Mazovian Voivodeship - MAZ - 514900 inhabitants
Plock Voivodeship - PŁ - 146000 inhabitants
Rawa Voivodeship - RW - 138700 inhabitants
Inowroclaw Voivodeship - INW - 105300 inhabitants
Brzesc Kujawski Voivodeship - BRZ - 114600 inhabitants
Kalisz Voivodeship - KAL - 314800 inhabitants
Poznan Voivodeship - POZ - 276700 inhabitants
Łeczyca Voivodeship - ŁCZ - 140800 inhabitants
Sieradz Voivodeship - SIE - 223000 inhabitants
Sandomierz Voivodeship - SAN - 517100 inhabitants
Lublin Voivodeship - LUB - 184100 inhabitants
Cracow Voivodeship - KRA - 476400 inhabitants

For these two small regions I could not find data so far:

SW - Siewierz Duchy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Siewierz
LB - Lebork-Bytow Land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauenburg_and_B%C3%BCtow_Land

For East Prussia I have estimates for year 1626:
(450000 in year 1626, probably 400000 in 1580)

Warmia - WM - 90000 inhabitants
Ducal Prussia - 360000 inhabitants

^^^
In total over 4 million for those 18 regions ca. year 1580.

=====

For areas outside of the borders of 16th century Poland:

Silesia, an estimate for year 1577 - 1252445 inhabitants*
Farther Pomerania (Hinterpommern) - 300000 (year 1600)

For East Brandenburg I don't have data, but rather low population size.

https://i.imgur.com/Pi7fngw.png

I also have similar estimates for year 1340 - they are based on Saint Peter's Pence payments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter%27s_Pence

=====

*Of which ca. 30% in Upper Silesia, ca. 70% in Lower Silesia.

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 09:06 PM
I do not know about population estimates. Wow, that makes just a bit more than 2 millions.

Yes - compare it to estimates for the same year (1580) for the Polish heartland - it had about two times more people.

So ancestors of today's Ukrainians back in the 1500s were surely less numerous than ancestors of Poles at that time.

But it would be interesting to have also some ca. 1600 estimates for East Ukraine, including areas such as this region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloboda_Ukraine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Sloboda_Ukr.png/800px-Sloboda_Ukr.png

^^^
Ukrainian_Belgorod academic samples probably represent the average genetic profile of Sloboda Ukraine in general?


I've never heart about that. Why did it happen that Polish and Ukrainians mixed in Austrian territories more than in Russian Empire?

Because the area where Poles and Ukrainians lived as neighbours and both in big numbers, was larger in Austrian Galicia.

In Volhynia ethnic Poles were less numerous than in Eastern Galicia, and surely a larger percentage of them were nobility.

Dorkymon
01-01-2020, 09:24 PM
Ukrainian_Belgorod academic samples probably represent the average genetic profile of Sloboda Ukraine in general?



I'm sure that refers to Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi, which is on the opposite side of the country, as opposed to the town in Russia.

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 09:48 PM
I'm sure that refers to Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi, which is on the opposite side of the country, as opposed to the town in Russia.

No I think it refers to ethnic Ukrainians from Belgorod Oblast in Russia - area which has been strongly ethnically Ukrainian:

https://i.imgur.com/2fUyfC4.png

artemv
01-01-2020, 10:18 PM
Yes I agree. Those areas in the south-east were known as "Wild Fields" (Dzikie Pola) and it was mostly steppe with various forts and outposts.


In Russian it is spelled "Дикое поле". I do not know if you understand cyrillic writings, but here Russian words sound pretty similar to Polish ones. Territory of today's Steppe Ukraine was just the westernmost part of the "Wild Field", the "Wild field" refered to all the Great Steppe from modern Odessa to Modern East Kazakhstan.
I do not know what Polish learn at school about this period of time. I myself learned in a Russian school. After our history lessons everything looked like there were Mongol Empire, but after it broke apart the focus moves to wars against Poland and Sweden. But that's wrong. Generally, most of both Early Slav and after that East Slav's history before the very end of 18th century was about warfare between sedentary Slavs and steppe nomads from the Wild Field. Final victory over the Steppe and Russian/Ukrainian settlement in the Western part of the Steppe is the most important demographical event in the Eastern Slav history. Even more important than colonization of Siberia.
The tipping point in that war was not the 1380 and victory on the Kulikov field. Indeed, lands, that were settled by Slavs in the 15th century were abandoned at the beginning of the 16th century.
End of the 16th century was a tipping point. Russian army took Kazan' and after that Astrakhan'. At the very end of 16th century three cities were found: Samara, Saratov and Tzaritzin (now Volgograd). Sinse that moment no new Horde could migrate to the Western Steppe from its Eastern part. Crimeans was the last group of Steppe nomads to the West from Volga, but at that time they could not cross the Volga river and communicate freely with the Eastern Nomads and became heavily dependent on the Ottomans. In 17th and 18th centuries we can see the same process: both in Russia and in Poland. Slavs settleled further and further to the South, their numbers grew rapidly as they step by step took the fertile lands of what was once "the Wild Field".
After 1771 the Crimeans were no longer a threat to the Slav settlers in the former Wild field, and after 1791 peace with Ottomans Crimea finally became part of Russia. As you can see, partitions of Poland happened right after Crimean and Ottoman defeats. Poland, that was still organized as a Medieval state was weak by itself, and Ottoman defeats left Poland with no possible ally, so Russia, Prussia and Austria could divide Poland even without a war.

Tomenable
01-01-2020, 10:36 PM
^^^
All of Poland was de facto Russia's protectorate after the Great Northern War, and "keeping Poland Medieval" (and weak) was in Russia's best interest. The partitions happened because Poland started reforming & modernizing itself, and resisting Russian control - this is why Prussia and Austria were needed to divide the country, as Russia was not strong enough to absorb all of it. If Poles were not so rebellious, all of Poland would be controlled by Russia - there would be no need to ask Prussia and Austria for help.

And probably also the partitions would not happen (but de facto Poland would be under Russian control, at least for some time).

But as I wrote before, until 1795 Russians annexed mostly areas with majority non-Polish populations (in terms of ethnicity).

=====

This is a nice map of Russian expansion in 1340-1897:

http://starenowemapy.pl/2018/01/20/rozwoj-imperializmu-rosyjskiego-1340-1897/

^^^
Kursk was taken already in the 1400s, Kharkiv in 1549.


I do not know if you understand cyrillic writings

Unfortunately no, I was born in the 1990s so no cyrillic at school. :( But maybe I'll learn it.

Different alphabet is the main difficulty, other than that Russian language is similar to Polish.

artemv
01-01-2020, 10:53 PM
No I think it refers to ethnic Ukrainians from Belgorod Oblast in Russia - area which has been strongly ethnically Ukrainian
I've been in Belgorod. People there speak Russian, but the way they pronounse some sounds still strongly resembles Ukrainian language.



But it would be interesting to have also some ca. 1600 estimates for East Ukraine, including areas such as this region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloboda_Ukraine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Sloboda_Ukr.png/800px-Sloboda_Ukr.png

^^^
Ukrainian_Belgorod academic samples probably represent the average genetic profile of Sloboda Ukraine in general?


Just wanted to say that Belgorod itself was found at 1596. As a fort in the Wild Field.
Before 1600 there was very little Slav population here. And those people who settled the area came both from Russia and from Ukraine. Russian authorities in Moscow at the time were really eager to get some loyal Orthodox population there. In 1646 Belgorod was still a small fort that was moved to another location, that was considered to be easier to defend.

artemv
01-02-2020, 12:15 AM
All of Poland was de facto Russia's protectorate after the Great Northern War, and "keeping Poland Medieval" (and weak) was in Russia's best interest. The partitions happened because Poland started reforming & modernizing itself, and resisting Russian control - this is why Prussia and Austria were needed to divide the country, as Russia was not strong enough to absorb all of it. If Poles were not so rebellious, all of Poland would be controlled by Russia - there would be no need to ask Prussia and Austria for help.

And probably also the partitions would not happen (but de facto Poland would be under Russian control, at least for some time).
That's a relatively short peroid of time. Great Northern War ended in 1721, just about 50 years before the First Partition.
I anyway have no doubt about connection between partitions of Poland and Russian victories against Ottomans and Crimeans, the last Western group of Steppe nomads. No threat from Steppe and Ottomans meant Empire could deal with other issues, like integrating into Empire such a populated territory. And this also meant, that in case if Polish try to resist, they would have no allies, as Ottomans were just recently defeated and Germans (Prussians and Austrians) got their part of Poland. Trying to integrate all the Poland into Russian Empire could have easily ended in a defeat, as both Prussia and Austria would surely support any Polish resistance or rebellion.
Yes, the Empire had no interest in reforms in Poland, but those reforms could only change something in the long run. In the short run, it was much more important to deal with possible Polish allies.


But as I wrote before, until 1795 Russians annexed mostly areas with majority non-Polish populations (in terms of ethnicity).

Yes, I agree here. Why do you point this out? Did I say somewhere those territories had Polish majority in terms of ethnicity?



This is a nice map of Russian expansion in 1340-1897:

http://starenowemapy.pl/2018/01/20/rozwoj-imperializmu-rosyjskiego-1340-1897/


Unfortunately this map doesn't distinguish between several very different cases:
- integration into Moscovia different Slavic feudal territories. In this cases regions with population that spoke the same language were integrated. And not just the same language, the territories had the same political structure;
- annexation of Kazan' and Astrakhan', regions with steppe population, mostly Muslem at the time;
- annexation and settlement of territories that had no sedentary population. You can see all the territory from Kharkov to Kazan' has the same colour, but their history is quite different. Populating the Wild Steppe territories was a very long process, but it made Russia a great Power;
- annexation of Polish lands. With their Jewish population, Polish minority and Orthodox/Uniate majority, that was quite close to Russians in terms of both language and religion, but was already used to quite different political system.



Kursk was taken already in the 1400s, Kharkiv in 1549.

That is formal side of history.
If you read at least wikipedia you will see a bit different story.
Kursk became part of Russia at 1508 (was usually called Moscowy at a time), but the state then was not able to defend the territory. Kursk was soon depopulated as Moscow could not protect it against Crimean raids, the territory had little to no Slavic population.
In 1586 Kursk was re-founded at a different place(!!). That was part of large-scale Slavic settlement in the Wild Steppe.



Unfortunately no, I was born in the 1990s so no cyrillic at school. :( But maybe I'll learn it.

Different alphabet is the main difficulty, other than that Russian language is similar to Polish.
I've seen you posted here some maps with texts in Ukrainian, so I thought you probably read the cyrillic letters.

Several times tried a funny game "try understand Polish people without switching to English". Generally, I need some some time to get used to way Polish pronouse sounds, but then I start recognizing the words.

Tomenable
01-02-2020, 01:39 AM
Why did it happen that Polish and Ukrainians mixed in Austrian territories more than in Russian Empire?

This area (East Galicia) was part of Poland for over 400 years, a longer time than Volhynia and other territories:

Of course period of Austrian rule is not included in this time:

https://i.imgur.com/osyAWl4.png

^^^
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34wkWnMSI

artemv
01-02-2020, 10:09 AM
This area (East Galicia) was part of Poland for over 400 years, a longer time than Volhynia and other territories:

Of course period of Austrian rule is not included in this time:
https://i.imgur.com/osyAWl4.png

^^^
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34wkWnMSI

I see. Those who made this map consider being part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania doesn't count, only being part of Poland proper.

As for me arguement that East Galicia is a region where both ethnic Polish and ethnic Ukrainians were peasants is much more important. Polish nobility and townspeople I guess could move to any part of Great Duchy of Lithuania, even before both countries unified formally. At least, even before the Union of Lublin two countries were close allies. We know that ashkenazy Jews have settled almost in every region of both Kingdom of Poland and Great Duchy of Lithuania, likely Christian Slavic townspeople could move and moved just as easily.

Tomenable
01-13-2020, 05:04 PM
Sample UKR-1283 from Sumy Oblast (North-Eastern Ukraine!) plots very close to my father and also to Austrian:Austria5 in Global25:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19406-Sumy-Oblast-genetics

^Super interesting, so people from Sumy Oblast are very western-shifted compared to what their geographical location would suggest?

lgmayka
01-13-2020, 08:57 PM
Just to mention that the Curzon Line is pretty much identical to Russian border between 1795 and Napoleon's times.
Except for the Lviv region, which had never been under the rule of Moscow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Namier#Professional_career) (except for transient wartime fluctuations) until the Soviet Union seized it at the beginning of World War II under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact).

Or, more correctly: You are referring to the original Curzon Line (labeled "B" on this map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line#/media/File:Curzon_line_en.svg)) rather than the later one attributed to Namier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Namier#Professional_career).

George
01-13-2020, 11:00 PM
Sample UKR-1283 from Sumy Oblast (North-Eastern Ukraine!) plots very close to my father and also to Austrian:Austria5 in Global25:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19406-Sumy-Oblast-genetics

^Super interesting, so people from Sumy Oblast are very western-shifted compared to what their geographical location would suggest?

Sumy is part of the "Slobidska Ukrajina" and did not become heavily settled until the 17th century. A big portion of the migrants came there from West of the Dnipro and even from further west. This could be part of the reason.

Melissay122
06-16-2020, 09:27 AM
Hi ,

Just stopping by because my Grandfather was Rusyn/Ruthenian from Zakarpattia Oblast with his mother being from Podhajce (Galicia at the time I believe) and my Great Grandfather being from the Uzhod (spelling?) region . I think we apply to the example of marrying as these places had different boundaries late 1800's to the the 1900's.(obviously as you all are discussing lol) Here is my GED match if is helpful! (Keep in mind my father is from Croatia so try to ignore that part and my Mother's Mother is British)

For some reason I couldn't insert the images but they are attached to this post