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cercle
10-12-2018, 08:24 AM
I have forwarded to their helpdesk the problem with my Y-DNA haplogroup and got this interesting reply :

"I passed this information on to our science team, and they have now got back to me.

It is an exciting time here at Living DNA, as we have just begun using a new and improved chip on which to test your DNA - in fact, your sample was in one of the first two batches to be tested on the new chip. This means that we have had to develop new processes to analyse the data. As with all new scientific and technical endeavours, there are sometimes teething problems!

The science team have identified an issue with the way the I1 haplogroup was being called when our systems analysed the data.

The good news is that we have now rectified the problem, and I am re-processing your results now. You may receive some emails from us about the status of your test as this is being done - please ignore these as they are automatic."

There is about 660 000 values in the Raw data at the moment.

# Living DNA customer genotype data download file version: 1.0.2
# File creation date: 10-10-2018
# Genotype chip: Sirius

Results Prior re-processing

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9647-Living-DNA-Results&p=504873&viewfull=1#post504873

Results now

26623

Slight change here. Some close admixture have to be interchangeable.

Eastern Balkan dominate now. The 1.4% Iberia and 1.4% Western Russia are gone. Solid Germanic.

But give me that re-processing switch as I can try and see all the different probabilities of admixture !

Robert1
10-12-2018, 02:59 PM
Living DNA has moved from their Orion chip to Sirius?

This should be interesting but I wish they'd concentrate on upgrading reference populations and rolling out DNA matching.

Robert1
10-12-2018, 03:00 PM
Duplicate...

cercle
10-12-2018, 03:19 PM
It looks like it is the case. Maybe an official announcement will come in the next few days. Yeah I wonder whether if it affects other developpment such as the ones you mention.

kingjohn
10-12-2018, 03:47 PM
It looks like it is the case. Maybe an official announcement will come in the next few days. Yeah I wonder whether if it affects other developpment such as the ones you mention.

i hope they will update
results of people who already tested with orion chip
to sirius chip ;)

Dibran
10-12-2018, 04:52 PM
i hope they will update
results of people who already tested with orion chip
to sirius chip ;)

Yea its only fair. Considering 23andme hasn't though, this may not happen sadly.

MacUalraig
10-12-2018, 05:06 PM
Yea its only fair. Considering 23andme hasn't though, this may not happen sadly.

Doubt it would make financial sense. I might upgrade mine myself if they reach Alpha Centauri.

FionnSneachta
10-12-2018, 05:58 PM
It wouldn't make financial sense but they did promise free updates, not that I actually expect to do it because of what they said in the past.

kingjohn
10-12-2018, 06:35 PM
i have both in cautious mode and in standard mode
this :

Europe (unassigned) 2.4%
When calculating your ancestry we've identified some DNA that is found in multiple areas of Europe.
These have been listed as "Unassigned", since we cannot pinpoint as confidently, specifically which regions that DNA is similar to. As our methods improve you will see your results updated and a lower proportion of Unassigned appearing.

p.s
i hope they will solved it
only in complete mode it turn to something 2.4% iberia but they are not sure about it :\
maybe with this new chip or futuer updates .......

BroderTuck
10-14-2018, 05:55 PM
One wonders what they have changed with the new chip.

Guessing it is still GSA-based, which means that there's only so much that can be done. Hopefully they've fixed some of the Y-SNPs that were called wrongly on the old chip, and chosen equivalents instead.

sktibo
10-16-2018, 02:14 AM
Exciting. I'll have to re test on the new chip to see if it actually represents my known ancestry from Britain decently.

JMcB
10-16-2018, 04:03 AM
Unfortunately, I’m afraid it’ll be a year before we hear anything more about it.

I’m still waiting for their Irish update.

timberwolf
10-16-2018, 04:44 AM
Unfortunately, Iím afraid itíll be a year before we hear anything more about it.

Iím still waiting for their Irish update.

Delivering Family networks, honoring the pledge of an ancestry estimate for those who uploaded their data through FMP before the end of this month, should be their first priority. As well as the Irish update in which we were led to believe would become available by the end of March last year.

Call be a cynic, but this new chip will probably go the way, all their promises go. Nowhere.

Solothurn
10-18-2018, 12:19 PM
I asked them why their chip autosomal results go back upto 10 generations (c300 years) but Y and mtDNA cannot trace more recent markers. In example both mine are U152* and H1c3* even though both have more recent mutations. They replied and their reply made no sense. Maybe they didn't understand my question :(

evon
10-18-2018, 01:05 PM
I asked them why their chip autosomal results go back upto 10 generations (c300 years) but Y and mtDNA cannot trace more recent markers. In example both mine are U152* and H1c3* even though both have more recent mutations. They replied and their reply made no sense. Maybe they didn't understand my question :(

I am still waiting to hear back regarding YDNA SNP's downstream from DF13 (I asked a few months ago or so), so I take it that the lab technicians are overwhelmed...

MacUalraig
10-18-2018, 01:42 PM
I asked them why their chip autosomal results go back upto 10 generations (c300 years) but Y and mtDNA cannot trace more recent markers. In example both mine are U152* and H1c3* even though both have more recent mutations. They replied and their reply made no sense. Maybe they didn't understand my question :(

You should post what they said, I'm bored. But its a bit of a mean question, for a start they only have 21k Y SNPs and what 600k+ autosomal SNPs? And the comparison processes/calculations are totally different, or at least we assume they are because they haven't published where they plucked the 10 generations figure from. At launch they had a much shorter period they quoted. I always thought, being a cynic, that 10 generations is conveniently just a bit too far back for us to cross check against our paper trails.. ;-)

The technology exists for them to do both comprehensive Y and autosomal all on one chip and certainly for someone to do a truly comprehensive Y chip with everything (NGS) discovered to date. There was another company who were supposed to be doing the latter but it doesn't seem to have come to fruition.

Solothurn
10-19-2018, 11:17 AM
I lost their reply so I have emailed them again :)

"Your chip currently traces back 10 generations autosomal anyway. Yet on both my YDNA and mtDNA it doesn't pick up my recent SNPs. I am R-U152 and H1c3 which are both 4,000 years or older. I have tested with FTDNA and both have much more recent SNPS (c1,000 years) Will this change or is it luck of the draw if my SNPs are on the chip?"





You should post what they said, I'm bored. But its a bit of a mean question, for a start they only have 21k Y SNPs and what 600k+ autosomal SNPs? And the comparison processes/calculations are totally different, or at least we assume they are because they haven't published where they plucked the 10 generations figure from. At launch they had a much shorter period they quoted. I always thought, being a cynic, that 10 generations is conveniently just a bit too far back for us to cross check against our paper trails.. ;-)

The technology exists for them to do both comprehensive Y and autosomal all on one chip and certainly for someone to do a truly comprehensive Y chip with everything (NGS) discovered to date. There was another company who were supposed to be doing the latter but it doesn't seem to have come to fruition.

Solothurn
10-19-2018, 10:16 PM
They replied:


Thanks for getting in touch. Let me see if I can clarify a little bit about the presentation of your mother/fatherline results:

The different parts of your results have come from analysing different types of DNA. As such, your mother/fatherline results must be interpreted differently from your family ancestry results. Regarding your mother/fatherline interpretation:

The letters and numbers of your HAPLOGROUP AND SUBCLADE are the names of the signatures. Instead of identifying them by their long list of markers, the scientific community has named them according to the letters of the alphabet.

On that same line, your personal signature ("set of markers") is called your subclade and this personal signature falls within the grouping of signatures that is your haplogroup. You will share an ancient (10s of thousands of years ago) ancestor with everyone who shares your haplogroup. Your haplogroup is your branch on the human mother/fatherline tree and your subclade is the part most unique to you, a bit like a leaf at the end of branch. Many of us will share the same branch but only a few of us will share the same leaf.

Our custom Orion chip looks at more than 4,000 SNP locations on the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and roughly 20,000 SNP locations on the Y chromosome. The detail of your results will depend on which of the markers that we test for end up positive for your DNA sample. Our markers have been chosen to provide better representation in a wider range of global populations.

The COVERAGE MAP allows you to explore the frequency that your mother/fatherline haplogroup is found in different parts of the world. Haplogroups can be associated with geographic regions, and can be and is also used in academic studies to trace the ancient migrations of early humans.

The percentages in your mother/fatherline results show you where in the world your haplogroup is most prevalent; it does not show how much your own DNA identifies with certain worldwide populations. So for example, if your mother/fatherline results say something like "England 10%", this means that 10% of the people that have been tested in England, happen to share the same haplogroup with you. As such, it is unlikely that your mother/fatherline percentages will add up to 100%, it could be more or less.

If a specific country is not listed, it is because our content curators could not reliably confirm, in their literature review of academic papers, that any percentage of that haplogroup exists in that country. Our haplogroup descriptions are updated periodically, as more published academic research becomes available on certain haplogroups. Because individual subclades are largely unique to each person, it's very difficult to present information on every single subclade.

In the HISTORY text, you can read genetic and historic information about your haplogroup. A possible story about how your haplogroup came to be.

The MIGRATION MAP can be used to understand the migration routes your ancient mother/fatherline ancestors took from Africa to recent times. This is a theoretical, suggested migration route for your haplogroup. This is just one of many possible migration routes your haplogroup may have taken over hundreds and thousands of years. It may or may not reach your present location.

The PHYLOGENETIC TREE ​shows where you fit on the overall human mtDNA/yDNA tree. The phylogenetic tree is a visual representation of where your subclade falls within the entire human family tree of motherline/fatherline signatures. It is not meant to be a representation of your genealogical or personal family tree.

Unfortunately, we do not offer a personalised analysis of your mother/fatherline results as it relates to your family tree or your personal subclade; we do not currently have the resources nor the expertise to do so.

Regarding interpretation of your ancestry results, let's start with the way that segments of your autosomal DNA is inherited, this is completely random! No one is able to control which parts of DNA you inherit from whom, and from which generation. This has something to do with the recombination events of DNA in the formation of new cells.

As such, for example, from an "ancestral percentage" point of view, you did not inherit exactly 25% of your grandmother's percentages. These resources can hopefully help you understand and shed some further light into this:
https://gcbias.org/2013/10/20/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-grandparent/
https://gcbias.org/2017/12/19/1628/
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/molgen/

Our family ancestry test can show links from up to 10 generations back, so your results may be a surprise because you may have ancestors in your family which you have not been told about from past generations. In this case, perhaps talk to other members of your family and see if you can piece the puzzle together!

Anything below 5% could be either noise (interference in the results from the processing/quality of the sample) or it could be an actual region-like relic from a very very distant ancestor many hundreds of years ago that has survived recombination. We can't be very certain about this and this is not surprising as its really very hard to establish and follow a paper trail back that far.

If you don't feel that this is the reason your results are a surprise because you have family tree research or gathered additional evidence, please read on ...

Currently, in the family ancestry part of our testing package, we have reference samples from up to 80 regions with which we can compare your DNA. These regions will have geographically recognisable names, but may not fit exactly into the geographical and political borders and can cover many places. If our algorithm detects a signature that matches your DNA, that region will be assigned to you.

This is no easy task as many populations are themselves formed from the mixture of other populations. Our algorithm will attempt to match you directly to a population or region. Sometimes we may not have a reference sample and in some areas we may have a low sample size for the region, or it could be that there is a further population structure within that population/region that makes it near impossible for our our algorithm to match you to a region. In this case we are likely to assign some ancestry to the populations that contributed to that region and so you will see your DNA linked to an unexpected regions.

We also know that some populations are genetically close and will share a very similar signature. This means that sometimes, even our fine-scale algorithm cannot distinguish between these very genetically similar regions. If this is the case, then your DNA will be linked to the best reference dataset that we have.

We understand that when taking a genetic ancestry DNA test, you may have expected to get a set of final results, but in truth it is important to note that all family ancestry results, from any company, are estimates, and are based on comparing your DNA to a range of reference samples. Your Living DNA test is designed to give you the most accurate results based on the information presently available to us. We aim to continuously work to expand our overall reference dataset which will allow us to update your results and provide you with more detail so your ancestry breakdown will be refined over time.

We hope this covers your questions but if not please let us know.

BroderTuck
11-03-2018, 07:44 AM
In an earlier post, I wrote

Guessing it is still GSA-based, which means that there's only so much that can be done.

Turns out (https://www.livingdna.com/blog/371-living-dna-october-update-us-laboratory-and-version-2-dna-chip) the new chip is not GSA-based after all, but Thermofisher Scientific (Affymatrix).

From the link, they specifically mention "Compatibility - Make the chip as universally compatible as possible, meaning we help people who have taken DNA tests at other companies be able to use our tools and connect with our testers if desired".

It would be great to see some comparison stats (https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_SNP_comparison_chart) for the new Sirius chip.

Here's my gedcom (genesis) kit numbers it you want to compare:
WN6318128 (LivingdDNA Orion)
T614844 (FTDNA)
159832 SNPs used for this comparison.
52 shared segments found for this comparison.

C J Wyatt III
11-03-2018, 06:01 PM
Here's my gedcom (genesis) kit numbers it you want to compare:
WN6318128 (LivingdDNA Orion)
T614844 (FTDNA)
159832 SNPs used for this comparison.
52 shared segments found for this comparison.

Thanks for posting. I guess you mean GEDmatch (Genesis).

Anyhow, I was hoping that the LivingDNA Orion would have more SNPs in common with Family Finder. I wonder, since it is more SNP rich than the original LivingDNA test, if GEDmatch will allow it to be uploaded to its original database?


Jack

BroderTuck
11-03-2018, 07:12 PM
Thanks for posting. I guess you mean GEDmatch (Genesis).
Yes, don't know what my fingers were doing there.


Anyhow, I was hoping that the LivingDNA Orion would have more SNPs in common with Family Finder. I wonder, since it is more SNP rich than the original LivingDNA test, if GEDmatch will allow it to be uploaded to its original database?


Jack

Orion is the original one, I was hoping tge thread starter or anyone else on the new Sirius chip soild weigh in.

C J Wyatt III
11-03-2018, 07:24 PM
Yes, don't know what my fingers were doing there.



Orion is the original one, I was hoping tge thread starter or anyone else on the new Sirius chip soild weigh in.


Thanks, your fingers might not have known what they were doing, but my mind sure did not know what it was doing.


Anyhow, I have hopes that the Sirius chip is what we are looking for.


Jack

ianz91
11-04-2018, 03:32 PM
I hope everyone who tests with LivingDNA treats this new chip very "siriusly".


Ok I'm leaving now

Robert1
11-04-2018, 04:52 PM
I couldn't help myself and sent in another sample to test on the new Sirius chip. I sure will be disappointed if they test me again on Orion!

I probably should have waited until the Black Friday Sale!

sktibo
11-08-2018, 01:07 PM
I couldn't help myself and sent in another sample to test on the new Sirius chip. I sure will be disappointed if they test me again on Orion!

I probably should have waited until the Black Friday Sale!

I'm very interested in the comparison between the two versions of your tests Robert and how improved it will be if it is better

Robert1
11-08-2018, 05:32 PM
I'm very interested in the comparison between the two versions of your tests Robert and how improved it will be if it is better

I'll definitely update this thread with old and new results when I get the new results back. I sure hope they aren't the very last Orion batch to be processed! According to Living DNA the exact same SNPs will be used for ancestry analysis on Orion or Sirius. And they say all new results since late October will be on Sirius, so we'll see.

It's hard to believe Orion and Sirius results of the same person will be exactly the same down to 0.1%, and I don't expect that. Within 1% would be great. I'm more interested in better SNP overlapping with other chips out there. DNA matches in Family Networks, GEDmatch Genesis, etc. should be a good test. Yeah, we'll see!

Anyway, my kit status is "Received by Lab" (Louisville, Kentucky) with a completion estimate of Jan 30. Hopefully it'll be much earlier, say a nice Christmas present! Getting in before the Black Friday sale could mean even earlier results. I suspect it's a little slow in the lab now - just before the holiday rush.

euasta
11-18-2018, 07:03 PM
According to Living DNA the exact same SNPs will be used for ancestry analysis on Orion or Sirius.

I'm more interested in better SNP overlapping with other chips out there.

Lool!... How can be a better overlap with the snps detected by other companies if they read the same snps as the previous chip?!

BroderTuck
11-19-2018, 03:41 PM
Not all of the SNPs tested by the chips are part of the set that is used for the "ethnicity" guesstimate.

While the "guesstimate" set is the same, others differ a bit, for example I think that the new chip tests closer to 800K snps, while the old one only did around 700K (both numbers include Y and mt snps).

Robert1
11-20-2018, 02:49 AM
Lool!... How can be a better overlap with the snps detected by other companies if they read the same snps as the previous chip?!

Orion and Sirius overlap for Living DNA ethnicity SNPs but Orion (and 23&Me's V5 chip) poorly matches the older OmniExpress chips. Sirius will share way more SNPs with OmniExpress. Going forward this should improve Family Networks matching with uploads/transfers with AncestryDNA, FTDNA, MyHeritage, 23&Me V4, etc. raw data.

euasta
12-12-2018, 04:17 PM
They are some Liars!:( They have "forgotten" all the promises to keep up-to-date the results for all customers which were tested with the old chip, along with the progress they make in their work. For that... they've deleted now all the links to these promises!...

TopLobster
12-13-2018, 01:29 PM
They are some Liars!:( They have "forgotten" all the promises to keep up-to-date the results for all customers which were tested with the old chip, along with the progress they make in their work. For that... they've deleted now all the links to these promises!...

From where do you claim they have they deleted the links to these promises?

The description of the "unassigned" categories still shows, "As our methods improve you will see your results updated and a lower proportion of Unassigned appearing.".

These links still claim that the results of all customers will be updated.
https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012762551-How-do-I-interpret-my-family-ancestry-results-
https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012301992-Why-have-my-results-changed-

euasta
12-13-2018, 02:54 PM
From where do you claim they have they deleted the links to these promises?

The description of the "unassigned" categories still shows, "As our methods improve you will see your results updated and a lower proportion of Unassigned appearing.".

These links still claim that the results of all customers will be updated.
https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012762551-How-do-I-interpret-my-family-ancestry-results-
https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012301992-Why-have-my-results-changed-
Thanks because you found on that blog some details that disappeared from their page. :)
If you carefully read again what I said and the links you found, probably you will understand.


Quote:
"In the future, if, we are able to provide finer detail within our existing regions, or we can offer additional features in the ancestry platform, your online results will be updated"

FionnSneachta
12-13-2018, 03:01 PM
From where do you claim they have they deleted the links to these promises?

The description of the "unassigned" categories still shows, "As our methods improve you will see your results updated and a lower proportion of Unassigned appearing.".

These links still claim that the results of all customers will be updated.
https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012762551-How-do-I-interpret-my-family-ancestry-results-
https://support.livingdna.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012301992-Why-have-my-results-changed-

It's probably because people are getting very different results now compared to when they first tested. I first got my results in May 2017 giving me 19.6% Ireland and there has been no update to my results since then. I uploaded my mum's data and she gets 100% Ireland. It definitely looks like they have a larger reference of Irish samples now compared to when I first tested that is causing people to get higher percentages. Despite this, they haven't updated my results. Of course, they might still update the results in the future.

Pylsteen
12-13-2018, 04:01 PM
Perhaps they will update after a few euro-projects are finished; I can't find this "one world project" page anymore, but they are relocating some of their pages. An overview of projects can be seen on eupedia (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/one_family_one_world_dna_project.shtml), interestingly, I do not see the Irish and German projects there.

euasta
12-13-2018, 04:13 PM
Perhaps they will update after a few euro-projects are finished; I can't find this "one world project" page anymore, but they are relocating some of their pages. An overview of projects can be seen on eupedia (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/one_family_one_world_dna_project.shtml), interestingly, I do not see the Irish and German projects there.
All ambitious... "regional projects" have now volatilized along with unfulfilled promises, deleting all links to its on their site! Not a link now related to its, other than... to buy a test!

sktibo
12-14-2018, 05:06 PM
All ambitious... "regional projects" have now volatilized along with unfulfilled promises, deleting all links to its on their site! Not a link now related to its, other than... to buy a test!

Oh now that is interesting... perhaps they realized that this sort of regional breakdown in an autosomal DNA test isn't really viable (or they don't have the resources to complete them) and they have added the reference populations to some existing categories. I don't think splitting Ireland into 13 regions or whatever would have done much good anyhow, looking at how their English regions turn out for many people...

JMcB
12-14-2018, 05:13 PM
It's probably because people are getting very different results now compared to when they first tested. I first got my results in May 2017 giving me 19.6% Ireland and there has been no update to my results since then. I uploaded my mum's data and she gets 100% Ireland. It definitely looks like they have a larger reference of Irish samples now compared to when I first tested that is causing people to get higher percentages. Despite this, they haven't updated my results. Of course, they might still update the results in the future.

I hate to say it, but I have a feeling that those of us who were early adopters, are going to be last in line, when it comes to getting updated results.

sktibo
12-14-2018, 05:37 PM
I hate to say it, but I have a feeling that those of us who were early adopters, are going to be last in line, when it comes to getting updated results.

Perhaps that is a good call on their part financially speaking, as my curiosity (a.k.a DNA test addiction) could get the best of me and I might order a Sirius chip test... Hopefully I won't cave but it could certainly happen.

JMcB
12-14-2018, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by sktibo:
Perhaps that is a good call on their part financially speaking, as my curiosity (a.k.a DNA test addiction) could get the best of me and I might order a Sirius chip test... Hopefully I won't cave but it could certainly happen.

I’m afraid it is indeed an addiction but fortunately there’s always some new angle to pursue. So hopefully, we’ll be kept busy in the meantime. Although, I was tempted to upload my raw data, just to see what would happen but I think I passed the deadline for ethnicity results. It would’ve been interesting just to see them match me as my own twin brother on Family Networks ;-)

FionnSneachta
12-14-2018, 06:03 PM
Perhaps that is a good call on their part financially speaking, as my curiosity (a.k.a DNA test addiction) could get the best of me and I might order a Sirius chip test... Hopefully I won't cave but it could certainly happen.

It's a good business plan on their part if current customers keep buying repeat tests ;) It's a real shame if you need to buy a new kit every year or so in order to know your results with the latest 'improvements'. I can't blame anyone for being curious though.

euasta
12-14-2018, 06:56 PM
It's a good business plan on their part if current customers keep buying repeat tests ;) It's a real shame if you need to buy a new kit every year or so in order to know your results with the latest 'improvements'.
Not respecting their initial promises to keep up-to-date the results for all customers, Living DNA have already lost their clients' confidence.

sktibo
12-14-2018, 07:54 PM
Not respecting their initial promises to keep up-to-date the results for all customers, Living DNA have already lost their clients' confidence.

Honestly I'm shocked they actually made uploads possible and updated their Irish region at a minimum. They're doing better than I thought they would have been at this point

euasta
12-14-2018, 10:18 PM
Honestly I'm shocked they actually made uploads possible and updated their Irish region at a minimum. They're doing better than I thought they would have been at this point
I tyhink, they're doing BAD.

Robert1
12-15-2018, 12:23 AM
Perhaps that is a good call on their part financially speaking, as my curiosity (a.k.a DNA test addiction) could get the best of me and I might order a Sirius chip test... Hopefully I won't cave but it could certainly happen.

You'll cave, you know you will! :biggrin1:

Especially since it's on sale now!

Seriously, I hope we do see a few more Orion/Sirius comparisons to get a feel for how they stack up with mine.

fostert
12-15-2018, 02:15 AM
You'll cave, you know you will! :biggrin1:

Especially since it's on sale now!

Seriously, I hope we do see a few more Orion/Sirius comparisons to get a feel for how they stack up with mine.

Can't cave - wife forbids anymore DNA tests. Unless I move into the doghouse...then I can test the dog too!

sktibo
12-15-2018, 05:09 AM
You'll cave, you know you will! :biggrin1:

Especially since it's on sale now!

Seriously, I hope we do see a few more Orion/Sirius comparisons to get a feel for how they stack up with mine.

My address is in Chinese characters right now and I haven't figured out how to ship things here yet so if I stay ignorant I'll make it through the sale period at least

edwardsson
12-16-2018, 03:11 PM
It wouldíve been interesting just to see them match me as my own twin brother on Family Networks ;-)

I tested Living DNA in the beginning of the year and tested MyHeritage in September this year and then uploaded the file to Living DNA and got this result in the Family Network (beta):
Predicted Relationship:Identical twin

richard.mcculloch
12-17-2018, 05:41 PM
I recently sent Living DNA a message on Facebook regarding the higher amount's of Irish ancestry showing in recent uploads/results; their response is below (they respond very quickly to Facebook messages in case any of you want to contact them in the future):

"Hi, thanks for getting in touch with us. Our Irish Ancestry updates are across both chips. The updated Irish Ancestry results are due to a result in our improvements across our panels and not the chip. The chip will not affect this and your results will be updated in your portal automatically. Everyone's portals will update for 3 different panels including Irish Ancestry in March time of 2019 - our European panels have been updated and our British Isles is currently 50% complete of a further update. We will release more information in 2019 about panel improvements, kind regards, Living DNA"

Also interesting was their response to a separate message I sent a while back where they indicated "new product launches due in 2019 such as health and traits"

Robert1
12-17-2018, 07:12 PM
I recently sent Living DNA a message on Facebook regarding the higher amount's of Irish ancestry showing in recent uploads/results; their response is below (they respond very quickly to Facebook messages in case any of you want to contact them in the future):

"Hi, thanks for getting in touch with us. Our Irish Ancestry updates are across both chips. The updated Irish Ancestry results are due to a result in our improvements across our panels and not the chip. The chip will not affect this and your results will be updated in your portal automatically. Everyone's portals will update for 3 different panels including Irish Ancestry in March time of 2019 - our European panels have been updated and our British Isles is currently 50% complete of a further update. We will release more information in 2019 about panel improvements, kind regards, Living DNA"

Also interesting was their response to a separate message I sent a while back where they indicated "new product launches due in 2019 such as health and traits"

Thank you for posting this, richard.mcculloch!

timberwolf
12-17-2018, 09:20 PM
When Livingdna states time frames for updates, add 3-6 months to the date given, if we are lucky.

fostert
12-17-2018, 10:29 PM
When Livingdna states time frames for updates, add 3-6 months to the date given, if we are lucky.

Unfortunately, correct!

So am I to understand from richard.mcculloch's message that they have already implemented the European reference panel update, and will being doing so for the Irish and British Isles in the new year? Although I am 70% "Great Britain and Ireland", the rest of my european results have not changed (Ukrainian mainly).

richard.mcculloch
12-17-2018, 10:41 PM
From my understanding, it seems that new / recent tests will already incorporate the updated European/Irish reference panels and that older existing tests will then subsequently be updated in March 2019 (in addition to an update to British reference panels which seems to be 50% complete as of now)

Robert1
12-17-2018, 10:42 PM
Unfortunately, correct!

So am I to understand from richard.mcculloch's message that they have already implemented the European reference panel update, and will being doing so for the Irish and British Isles in the new year? Although I am 70% "Great Britain and Ireland", the rest of my european results have not changed (Ukrainian mainly).

From my 2017 Orion and Dec 12, 2018 Sirius results plus Living DNA's answer to richard.mcculloch, I'd say new Irish and Scottish reference samples are being used for recent test results but possibly not in continental NW Europe.

Robert1
12-18-2018, 02:04 AM
On the other hand Living DNA does say their European panels have been updated. I assume that's largely Germany so if their new reference panels came up 0% then very likely my 3-4% known German has washed out over 250 years. Same goes for smaller amounts of Dutch and Swiss. As far as actual DNA segments go I may have no traces of that continental NW European ancestry though I'd like to think so.

sktibo
12-18-2018, 04:41 AM
On the other hand Living DNA does say their European panels have been updated. I assume that's largely Germany so if their new reference panels came up 0% then very likely my 3-4% known German has washed out over 250 years. Same goes for smaller amounts of Dutch and Swiss. As far as actual DNA segments go I may have no traces of that continental NW European ancestry though I'd like to think so.

Dutch DNA in particular is very similar to insular so I don't think ethnicity estimates will be able to tell you how much continental ancestry you have inherited. German, especially if its west or southern is going to be way too tricky to tell apart for an estimate too. DNA relatives are the only way to do that I think..

Living DNA is also really unreliable on Germanic at least in my family. My mom didnt even get one percent germanic Europe and shes probably about 25 percent German, and shes definitely got some Dutch too.
Dad somehow gets 31% without a drop of that type of ancestry.

Let me add in here so this doesn't sound too preachy or condescending!

I feel the same way as you do, I would also like to think I've inherited less continental ancestry. However, I have a heck of a lot more and its much more distinct from Britain than yours is I think. These estimates give me zero German, French, SE Eng and even East Anglia. All it gives me is 5.1 East Balkans. I can look at that and go "awesome, looks like I'm more British than I thought" (maybe, a guy can hope eh) but i think the reality is the test just isn't up to the task. If it can't show at least some German in a guy like me, for one with less like you it is absolutely unreliable from this perspective

Robert1
12-18-2018, 06:07 AM
Thanks, @sktibo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love some chromosome segments to go along with my small percent of German ancestry! (I worded that last sentence in the comment above poorly. I was trying to say I wanted that bit of German ancestry.)

In fact 23&Me does identify 2.5% French&German but I've never had much luck coming up with DNA relatives sharing those chromosome segments. At 70 I may not live long enough to find out if that bit of ancestry actually washed out or not! So I just tell myself it IS there because Rhineland-Palatinate is in my family tree and at 4-5% why not, it's not enough to make much difference.

I hope the possible Living DNA update in March will give you that German, French, etc. you expect. I doubt it will for me as it appears that new reference panel already was used on my Dec 12 Sirius results.

sktibo
12-18-2018, 06:17 AM
Thanks, @sktibo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love some chromosome segments to go along with my small percent of German ancestry! In fact 23&Me does identify 2.5% French&German but I've never had much luck coming up with DNA relatives sharing those chromosome segments. At 70 I may not live long enough to find out if that bit of ancestry actually washed out or not! So I just tell myself it is there because it's in my family tree and at 4-5% why not, it's not enough to make much difference.

I hope the possible Living DNA update in March will give you that German, French, etc. you expect. I doubt it will for me as it appears that new reference panel was used on my Dec 12 Sirius results.

I doubt it will because my uploaded results didn't have any. It certainly isn't very promising now that we've heard they have indeed updated their European continental references. If it does after March or whenever... They say march so I'm thinking the end of August... Then perhaps we can be a little more hopeful.

However what I think this really means is that Ethnicity estimates cannot be divided into fine scale subregional categories and produce accurate results. We saw in your results both an updated chip and updated references and while different it doesn't necessarily look like a better (or worse) result.. I fear it is the foundations of the test that are faulty and building even more on top won't fix the problem.

Perhaps some level of a split in britain could work - around the level where Cumbria and Northumbria are clustered but separate from the other areas in Scotland, N and S wales are split, and Cornwall stands out - but certainly not subdividing the large south and central English grouping. Of course they will not reduce categories as that is their big marketing point.

Jessie
12-18-2018, 08:42 AM
They are some Liars!:( They have "forgotten" all the promises to keep up-to-date the results for all customers which were tested with the old chip, along with the progress they make in their work. For that... they've deleted now all the links to these promises!...

This is from Robert1 who posts on here.

"... Everyone's portals will update for 3 different panels including Irish Ancestry in March time of 2019 - our European panels have been updated and our British Isles is currently 50% complete of a further update. We will release more information in 2019 about panel improvements, kind regards, Living DNA"

fostert
12-20-2018, 07:09 PM
I hope the possible Living DNA update in March will give you that German, French, etc. you expect. I doubt it will for me as it appears that new reference panel already was used on my Dec 12 Sirius results.

Don't get me wrong: I am not an Ancestry shill. However Ancestry's new ability to resolve "Europe West" into French, Germanic and English origins is what impressed me most about their new update, and is why I now count them as the most reliable estimate out there. They captured most (but not all) of my theoretical ~~20% French ancestry, assigning me 11%. I am also particularly amazed that alot of my DNA matches who are fully Quebecois/French Canadian are getting anywhere from 70 to 100% France in their updated Ancestry estimates. Amazing.

23andme is an extremely close second. 23's reference panel is almost as large as Ancestry's (10,000 vs. 16,000) and they seem to be confident enough in their methods to assign percentages down to the 0.1% level. Not sure what to make of those - they are probably accurate on a continental level: i.e. some French-Canadian have a small 1% amount of Native American DNA (natural when you consider the early days of colonization of New France) , and some don't (because we don't inherit any DNA at all from 71% of our ancestors from, say 350 years ago). 23andme reflects this quite accurately among all of my french-canadian DNA cousins (BTW, Ancestry's new update is also very accurate at finding small amounts of Native American). 23 also are able to tease out some of my French (5%), and also reliably find a high percentage of France in my French-Canadian cousin DNA matches on there.

Anyhow, I have high hopes that LivingDNA will be able to follow and compete with Ancestry and 23andme, and assign more accurate western european values rather than just allowing it to be absorbed into "British and Irish". I will be watching them more closely than I have, because, as I said before, I think its their turn now to up the bar.