PDA

View Full Version : U5b1b1a1 Sami/Saami?



J Man
11-09-2013, 02:53 PM
Is mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b1a1 an indicator of Sami/Saami maternal line ancestry? I am talking right down to the subclade level here ''U5b1b1a1'' not the parent haplogroup ''U5b1b1a''. The extra ''1'' at the end obviously means a more downstream mutation. U5b1b1a1 seems to be rather limited to the Sami people and Finns. So I wonder if it's presence among Finns indicates old admixture with Sami people?

jewelsie
12-06-2013, 07:20 PM
Hi. My father's family is from Finland and his mtDNA is U5b1b1a1, which I understand from 23andme.com that it is Sami. We didn't know this from family records.

J Man
12-08-2013, 04:15 PM
Hi. My father's family is from Finland and his mtDNA is U5b1b1a1, which I understand from 23andme.com that it is Sami. We didn't know this from family records.

Very interesting indeed. I am not completely sure if all of U5b1b1a1a around in Finland has a Sami origin or not. I think there is a good chance that most lineages do though.

jouko157
04-05-2015, 04:16 PM
There are three lines in haplogroup U5b1b1a, saami,finn, rus. Very many norwegian, swedish and finnish saami maternal lineages have this category finn (saami motif is 3395, finn 16129, rus 1341 and 15314. In tis tree there is another U5b1b1a1 saami -group with motives 1850, 16148 and 16335.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0010285.s002

I do not know if there is coming a new category in this group Finn (-saami), motif 16129. I wish somebody could tell.

J Man
04-05-2015, 07:52 PM
There are three lines in haplogroup U5b1b1a, saami,finn, rus. Very many norwegian, swedish and finnish saami maternal lineages have this category finn (saami motif is 3395, finn 16129, rus 1341 and 15314. In tis tree there is another U5b1b1a1 saami -group with motives 1850, 16148 and 16335.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0010285.s002

I do not know if there is coming a new category in this group Finn (-saami), motif 16129. I wish somebody could tell.

It is quite clear that all of the samples under 16144 share a rather recent common ancestress. Recent as in the last 2000 years or so.

jouko157
04-08-2015, 12:24 PM
I have some information of four kits in this haplogroup U5b1b1a1. I can't send PM yet ( must have 10 posts in order to send PM's).

Jean M
04-08-2015, 12:42 PM
The Saami language developed in Finland and is a close relative of Finnish. They both spring from West Finnic.

Three years ago GailT posted:


We currently have 113 FMS test results from Finland (including the samples from the 1000 Genomes Project). It is interesting that there is very little diversity in the Finnish U5 distribution, especially when considering U5b. Nearly 40% of the Finnish U5 are in U5b1b1a (the "Saami motif").

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?421-U5-diversity-in-Finland

Subsequently U5b1b1a (T16144C) has been found in populations other than Saami. For example a paper last year found:


Siberian U5b mtDNAs clustered into subclade U5b1b1a, characterized by "Saami-specific” mutation at np 16144, together with Saami, Finns, Russians, Belarusians and Slovaks. Molecular dating results (3.7-4.9 kya) suggest a relatively recent arrival of the U5b1b1a lineage into Siberia.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/s12862-014-0217-9.pdf

So T16144C is not really Saami-specific. It would be good to know whether the downstream U5b1b1a1 (C4059T) is Sami/Saami-specific. It was found in a Saami of Sweden. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/DQ902696
And another Saami : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/AY882404

GailT
04-08-2015, 07:12 PM
It is difficult to determine a person's ethnic origins based on mtDNA for a couple of reasons - a person could have 90% Saami ancestry but not have Saami ancestry on the direct maternal line, so an autosomal DNA test is more useful for ethnic origins. It's also difficult to be certain which mtDNA lineages were present among the Saami in the past. U5b1b1a almost certainly was present because it is the dominant haplogroup today, but it is very likely that other haplogroups including other branches of U5 were also present at lower frequency. There might be subclades of U5b1b1a that are specific to the Saami, and U5b1b1a1 is a possibility, but there are several people in U5b1b1a1 from Finland who don't specify if they have Saami ancestry, so it might be difficult to say if this group originated in the Saami or in a common ancestor of Saami and Finns. There is also the problem of the slow mtDNA mutation rate which makes it difficult to use mtDNA to identify differentiation of population groups in the last few thousand years. I think the best one can say is that not all U5 are Saami and not all Saami are U5. Family histories and paper records (and perhaps autosomal DNA?) are much more reliable for identifying Saami ancestry.

Jean M
04-08-2015, 08:18 PM
Have a feeling that GailT intended to post here, but put this on the new papers discussion thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=78238&viewfull=1#post78238


It is difficult to determine a person's ethnic origins based on mtDNA for a couple of reasons - a person could have 90% Saami ancestry but not have Saami ancestry on the direct maternal line, so an autosomal DNA test is more useful for ethnic origins. It's also difficult to be certain which mtDNA lineages were present among the Saami in the past. U5b1b1a almost certainly was present because it is the dominant haplogroup today, but it is very likely that other haplogroups including other branches of U5 were also present at lower frequency. There might be subclades of U5b1b1a that are specific to the Saami, and U5b1b1a1 is a possibility, but there are several people in U5b1b1a1 from Finland who don't specify if they have Saami ancestry, so it might be difficult to say if this group originated in the Saami or in a common ancestor of Saami and Finns. There is also the problem of the slow mtDNA mutation rate which makes it difficult to use mtDNA to identify differentiation of population groups in the last few thousand years. I think the best one can say is that not all U5 are Saami and not all Saami are U5. Family histories and paper records (and perhaps autosomal DNA?) are much more reliable for identifying Saami ancestry.

Krefter
04-08-2015, 08:34 PM
U5b1b1a could be a haplogroup that was running around east Europe 4,000YBP and became a founder effect lineage in the Saami. It probably isn't Saami-specific at all, just it was first noticed a high numbers in Saami.

GailT
04-09-2015, 04:38 AM
U5b1b1a could be a haplogroup that was running around east Europe 4,000YBP and became a founder effect lineage in the Saami. It probably isn't Saami-specific at all, just it was first noticed a high numbers in Saami.

Yes, that's a challenge with populations that experienced a bottleneck. Some of the original diversity can be lost and a single founder mtDNA can become widespread in the population. That's also the case with the Basque in which a fairly young subclade U5b1f1a represents 12% of the population.

And thanks Jean for finding my errant post. :)

jouko157
04-09-2015, 05:53 AM
Now I understand better this haplogroup. I noticed that four five samples in this U5b1b1a1 group were saami or perhaps saami. Two saami haplos in north-eastern Finland, one haplo (USA) which had maternal lineage (saami) to nortwestern Finland and then uncertain saami haplos in northern Sweden and one in northern Norway, from old saami district, Balsfjord (I could'nt find Swedish ancestors). In northern Finland there was one sample which had finnish maternal lineage.

Krefter
04-10-2015, 07:57 AM
A Viking age sample from Norway has U5b1b1a. Just saw it on Jean's site.

jouko157
04-12-2015, 09:45 PM
I assume this haplogroup U5b1b1a1 came to Norrland Sweden in the western Scandinavia and to Kola peninsula in the east AD 200-400. And I assume that this haplogroup was born among saami.

Archeological (Welinder, Stig 2009: Sveriges historia 13000 f.Kr.–600 e.Kr. Stockholm: Norstedts) and linguistic (https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/135714/bidragti.pdf?sequence=1 and map 6. saame in: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Kielet_Suomessa_kautta_aikain.pdf ) findings from period AD 200-400 tell the same.

The problem is this saami motif. And there are just few samples.

Some of these maternal lineages stayed among finnish but most of these maternal lineages moved to northern districts in Scandinavia, Finland and Kola peninsula.

Iraqain
04-13-2015, 12:27 AM
My mtDNA is U5b1b1a, from Iraq.

jouko157
04-13-2015, 05:42 AM
U5b1b1a formulated about 5600 years ago, this U5b1b1a1 about 2200-2300 years ago.

jouko157
04-22-2015, 06:20 PM
Haplogroup U5b1b1a1 was born about 2200-2300 years ago.
There are just few kits in this maternal lineage. For example: in Finland three, in Sweden one and one in Norway.

1. First finnish mother lineage ancestor was married to Pitkä, a saami family in Kitka saami village in Kuusamo Finland
2. The other finnish mother lineage ancestor was married to Tenno, a saami family in Kuolajärvi saami village in northeastern Finland.
3. Third finnish mother lineage comes from USA but the ancestor of this maternal lineage lived in Ylimuonio in northwestern Finland. She was married to known saami family.
4. Norwegian maternal lineage’s ancestor lived in Balsfjord saami village in northern Norway.
5. Swedish maternal lineage’s ancestor lived in Åsele lappmark.

Krefter
04-22-2015, 08:28 PM
U5b1b1a formulated about 5600 years ago, this U5b1b1a1 about 2200-2300 years ago.

Where are you getting these dates from?

GailT
04-23-2015, 02:01 AM
U5b1b1a1 also has 3 named subclades: U5b1b1a1a, U5b1b1a1a1, and U5b1b1a1b. Including GenBank and the U5 project there are 49 FMS sequences. Behar's estimate for U5b1b1a1a1 is 2281 years with a standard deviation of 1681 years. Based on the average number of mutations and using the Soares calculator I estimated approximately

U5b1b1 7600 years
U5b1b1a 5000 years
U5b1b1a1 3500 years
U5b1b1a1a 3000 years

each with uncertainty of plus or minus several hundred years.

jouko157
04-30-2015, 05:36 AM
I took my estimates from a discussion. There was a link to an article (2012): http://www.cell.com/AJHG/supplemental/S0002-9297(12)00146-2
Doron M. Behar, correspondenceemail, Mannis van Oven, correspondenceemail, Saharon Rosset, Mait Metspalu, Eva-Liis Loogväli, Nuno M. Silva, Toomas Kivisild, Antonio Torroni, Richard Villems . I didn't check if the years were right...

In the discussion he wrote these estimates (I didn't check how these were calculated):
U5b1* ( 15500 bC)
U5b1* Group J (15500 bC)
U5b1* Group K (15500 bC)
U5b1b1 (7200 bC)
U5b1b1* Group H
U5b1b1*
U5b1b1a ( 3600 bC)
U5b1b1a
U5b1b1a1 ( 200-300 bC)
U5b1b1a1a (ab. y. 700)
U5b1b1a1a*

Krefter
06-01-2015, 07:49 AM
I'm working on a paper with West Asian and South Asian mtDNA, and one of the Turkish samples is U5b1b1a. Remeber, there was an Iraqi who posted here that said he belonged to U5b1b1a. I've read Y DNA studies in West Asia and sometimes I2a2a-M223, I1-M253, and R1b-L11 pop up. I think there's been very small-scale admixture(someone from Iran mixes with an Iraqi, who mixes with a Turk, who mixes with a Greek, who mixes with a Serb, etc.) spanning between distant regions of Eurasia in historical times.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707643523

Nicolas
06-22-2015, 04:04 PM
Hello,

I'm French and U5b1b1a1.

Interestingly, my genealogical tree is quite extensive with ~4500 ancestors, all of them being born in France, so I was quite suprised with this U5b1b1a1 haplogroup, since none of my known ancestors are of Samy origin.
My oldest known ancestor in maternal line (seventeeth generation) was called Mathurine Chartier and born in 1445 about 100 kms South of Paris.

My mother was also genotyped and was also found to be U5b1b1a1, so it is likely that there is quite a number of people living in France who belong to this haplogroup.

I'd love to know more about this U5b1b1a1 origin, since I don't know of any Sami origin in the family! Did Sami people settle in France when the Vikings colonized Western France around the year 1000? Did some people stop on their way during the migration of the ancestors of Sami people from Northern Italy to modern-day Finland about 2000 years ago?

If anyone is interested, I'll be happy to provide more details.

Nicolas

jouko157
06-27-2015, 05:20 AM
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA.shtml#history

Kurki
01-12-2018, 02:06 AM
I don't know if this will revive here, but instead of starting new Sami thread is this okay? I saw on first page #16189 relates to Finn Sami. ? Where do people find this specific info? It is so hard to find information on Sami. My numbers are U5b1 + 16189, U5b1b, U5b1b1, U5b1b1g. And what is U5b1b1g? I know it's all Sami anyway. My Grandma's family was from the area shared by southern Sami in Sweden. That's not saying I'd know if I'm Sami Swede or Finn. I am a little Finnish too. Any DNA test just has me as very Scandinavian, then some extra random assortment of either Russian, Baltic, East Euro, Komi, Tuvan, Basque, etc. None of it made sense and I suspected the Sami population was missing (I also have mtDNA Z and D5).

Does anyone know where to find more info or where the "g" on the end would be? Is that Finland then?? EDIT: Swedish Haplogroup Database: Vasterbotten, Sweden (this makes perfect sense). Neat resource.

Kristiina
01-12-2018, 06:25 AM
You can compare your sequences with U5b1b1g on Ian Logan site: http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/u5b1b1_genbank_sequences.htm

However, U5b1b1g seems not saami but related to the preceding European hunter-gathererer lineage that gave rise to Saami haplotype and all other relatively rare U5b1b1 haplotypes in Western Europe.

Here are some academic papers dealing with U5b1b1a:

Saami Mitochondrial DNA Reveals Deep Maternal Lineage Clusters (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.620.8843&rep=rep1&type=pdf)

A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia (https://www.nature.com/articles/5201712)

The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic “Outliers” Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/)

Ancient DNA Reveals Prehistoric Gene-Flow from Siberia in the Complex Human Population History of North East Europe(http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003296)

Identification and analysis of mtDNA genomes attributed to Finns reveal long-stagnant demographic trends obscured in the total diversity (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-05673-7)

Boreas
01-12-2018, 09:29 PM
The Samanni/Saami-population in the north of Finland share their major y-dna-type (N1c) with all other Finns.
The other y-dna found among the Saamis are adopted y-lines - probably from the last millennia - from Swedes (R1a), Danes (R1b) and Norsemen/Goths (I1).

The characteristic fenotype of the northern Finns populating todays Lapponia have a Sino-Tibetan scent. The explanation seems to be the direct connections between Lapponia and Ural that continued throughout the last millenium, when the rest of Fenno-Scandia was christianized (1050-1250 AD) and strictly prohibitted to visit, trade or marry with any "heathen" peoples of Lapponia, Carelia and Russia.

As shown by Ingman/Gyllensten and others, the Sino-Tibetan genetics appearing among the Samis are based on female exogamy, carrying the Asian mt-dna C and Z to the White Sea and Lapponia.

Kurki
01-12-2018, 09:56 PM
Thanks for added notes. Mine was U5b1 + 16189, then U5b1b1g. Now I realize this Swedish Haplogroup page is of course just reporting where these types are right now and there are some g's in that area, but U5b1b1a much more common in Sweden. So I do wonder where the U5b1b1g came from. I also have Z, but it is not Z1 like Sami, but Z3. And I also have D... D5 like Sami, but mostly D4. The D5 might be low confidence. D4 more likely and showed up a few times (D4, D4a, D4e). Maybe really Siberian like these tests were saying and I thought they must be leaving out Sami test population because I had family from southern Lapland (also Y-haplogroups to match, but they do overlap with being very Swedish too).

Kurki
01-13-2018, 03:47 AM
Doesn't the 16189 define the Sami motif here? (or a couple other numbers, maybe distinguishing areas of Kola)?
I was able to find Z3... Northern Yakut or Evenks, so a little more east of Volga-Urals. Odd stuff. I will probably try a new sample with a different company to compare some time soon.

GailT
01-13-2018, 05:44 PM
Thanks for added notes. Mine was U5b1 + 16189, then U5b1b1g. Now I realize this Swedish Haplogroup page is of course just reporting where these types are right now and there are some g's in that area, but U5b1b1a much more common in Sweden. So I do wonder where the U5b1b1g came from.

U5b1b1g has an age estimate of about 7500 years, it is relatively rare - only 13 samples in the U5 project, and it is found across western and northern Europe - Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany and Sweden. If you tested the full mtDNA sequence you can join teh U5 project and it should be possible to identify a more specific subclade of U5b1b1g.

GailT
01-13-2018, 05:58 PM
Doesn't the 16189 define the Sami motif here? (or a couple other numbers, maybe distinguishing areas of Kola)?


16189 is a very common mutation that is found in many different subclades of U5 so it is not useful for identifying a specific U5 subclade. I think we should retire the concept of a mtDNA "Sami motif". U5b1b1a is found at very high frequency among the Sami and in Finland, but it is also found at very low frequency throughout eastern Europe. U5b1b1a is estimated to be about 4000 years old, and it probably originated in a proto-Uralic language culture. There might be specific subclades of U5b1b1a that are more strongly associated with Sami maternal ancestry, but given the slow mutation rate and poor time resolution of mtDNA, it might not be possible to distinguish Sami versus Finish ancestry for most people. In general, oral family history and documents will be much more useful than mtDNA for identifying Sami ancestry. Perhaps autosomal DNA will also be useful.

Kurki
01-13-2018, 09:22 PM
Yes, I'm just talking about U5b1 + 16189 though... more below. But I have been wondering how about the limits of autosomal DNA when they do not have a Sami comparison population in their algorithms... ? You can be Finnish and be told you are a little Native American...stuff like this. Autosomal DNA is very helpful tool but it depends on the ability to then also match to comparison population. If no good match, you are thrown into next closest option (Finland, Lithuania, Russia, Hungary, North Africa, general Siberia, Nganasan, maybe even Native American).

But, given the similarities between Swedes and Finns and Sami, I understand it would also be hard to test for, especially given that the huge majority of people with any amount of Sami would likely have some other Scandinavian ancestry as well...for me there would already be so much overlap in the Y-DNA. But this whole issue of population is possibly how my autosomal DNA is working out anyway. 60-90% Scandinavian anywhere I put the raw data. Mostly reads as Swedish. The rest comes out as inconsistent admixtures to try to make the remaining haplogroups work within the populations afforded by whatever model I'm trying...yet consistently some kind of Russian/Siberian, then less consistent smaller pieces afterward, like Balkan, or Basque, or North African (not consistent interpretations). Just once I was Sicilian and a little Peruvian. Hmm. I read it as an issue of population, not an autosomal problem. But I might need a better sample too, not sure. But they have nailed Scandinavia and general Siberia of Yakut/Evenk area (not exactly Volga-Ural, though Komi/Karelia/Nganasan areas sometimes came up). On GEDmatch, supposedly only MDLP23 has a Sami population pool (I think that's the one), for example. There I come out with Sami Swede in admixtures and matching in one-to-one population third. I don't know how large their population was, but obviously a specific Sami Swede one, which worked well. But only that model used this population source. So, usually I am Russian, Komi, etc... autosomal tests can not tell me I am Sami if they have no comparison.

Because of the culture in Sweden, oral history is not necessarily adequate for Sami because we do already have that legend or suspicion without any proof... hence testing instead (maybe oral history works that way in some families that have recent history). If a little Sami within an established Swedish Lutheran background, your Sami ancestors were acculturated at some point and there is no history or record. We were brown/black-haired Swedes with dark skin and eyes, and we came from southern Lapland. And mtDNA D5, D4, U5B1 + 16189, Z3, B4, Y-DNA I1, N, R1a. Maybe all coincidences. Ha. (though I do think I read some numbers wrong, as if it was one sequence vs all separate versions of my U's, and have 16189 and also separate U5 with a "g", probably Basque from the other side of the family). But I'm not going to find this out in some church record book. This much I know about Swedish history.

Where is 16189 found beyond Sami and Yakut? I'm not finding it. I saw something about Guinea-Bissau, but not sure about the source. Interesting though. Certainly a chance I can be from those places too. Seems quite coincidental we are from Sweden near Vasterbotten.

Kurki
01-13-2018, 09:39 PM
What is a good test? I just did basic Ancestry. com autosomal and thought of doing Family Tree but they have too many options so I don't understand which one... I don't think they have Sami population either. Meaning, they would tell me (if Sami), I am Yakut or Russian, etc), but I might get better info on haplogroups from that test?

rms2
01-13-2018, 10:59 PM
What is a good test? I just did basic Ancestry. com autosomal and thought of doing Family Tree but they have too many options so I don't understand which one... I don't think they have Sami population either. Meaning, they would tell me (if Sami), I am Yakut or Russian, etc), but I might get better info on haplogroups from that test?

FTDNA's mtDNA Full Sequence test gives you the whole mtDNA genome. It is the last mtDNA test you will ever need. I don't regret ordering it.

evon
01-13-2018, 11:22 PM
Yes, I'm just talking about U5b1 + 16189 though...

I am U5b1b1-T16192C! with the 16189 mutation, I can tell you it is found in many U5 branches, both a and b:
http://www.phylotree.org/tree/index.htm

GailT
01-15-2018, 12:02 AM
16189 is an extremely common mutation that can be found anywhere. U5b1 plus 16189 tell you that you are in U5b1 and nothing else. Mannis should remove the "paragroups" defined by common mutations (152, 195, 16189, 16192 etc) from Phylotree because they have no value and they confuse people.

Kurki
01-15-2018, 04:26 AM
That's very vague. But I'd still say, then you have to look at context, like a human, not computer, and then you get more data. It's very good that way. Many pieces. Why Sami mtDna and Y-DNA is characterized patterns (and the mtDNA do not fit the Scandinavian patterns; somewhat Finn, but not Norway, Sweden, Denmark). And fact that someone would have actually come from Lapland vs Southern France. But yes, I'm learning more about the variations.

Thanks rms2. That's what I was wondering about if I try that company to get one different sample for comparison...and maybe just a different version of Swede-Siberia analysis. There are also sites you can't do anything with if you only have Ancestry raw DNA.

Andrea Lee
03-17-2018, 09:54 AM
I originally purchased DNA testing only for medical information, but now feeling curious about the ancestry aspect, which led me to this website. My mtDNA is U5b1b1a. My maternal grandparents spoke Russian but lived in what is now Ukraine. Surnames were Soroka and Chopar.