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NetNomad
10-14-2018, 12:21 PM
Somalis have a comparatively high frequency of haplogroup T to the rest of the world, but it is mostly only T-Y16897 (not very diverse).

Possibly even only T-Y45591 (TMRCA 2900 ybp)?? So clearly not the place of origin.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

AndresT
11-07-2018, 04:04 PM
Somalis have a comparatively high frequency of haplogroup T to the rest of the world, but it is mostly only T-Y16897 (not very diverse).

Possibly even only T-Y45591 (TMRCA 2900 ybp)?? So clearly not the place of origin.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

All belongs to Y45591 except any eventual penetration of surrounding populations that carried another extremely distant T branch (not found any example of this possibility yet)

This possibility of a Horn of Africa origin never was proposed by any serious individual. Frequency is not equal to origin.

NetNomad
02-13-2019, 01:00 PM
All belongs to Y45591 except any eventual penetration of surrounding populations that carried another extremely distant T branch (not found any example of this possibility yet)

This possibility of a Horn of Africa origin never was proposed by any serious individual. Frequency is not equal to origin.

Do you know if Southeast African (Kenya, Tanzania etc) T carriers are under the same general subclade (T-Y16897) as Somali ones? Excluding recent admixed populations like the Lemba, Swahili, or Comorians.

There is an ancient Cushitic genetic substratum all across Southeast Africa. Hence, the question. Thank in advance.

GabrielZelalem
01-16-2020, 05:39 PM
The TMRCA of Somali T has been published on YFull. It is estimated to be around 1650ybp which is incredibly young compared to E-V32.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y45591/

drobbah
01-16-2020, 07:22 PM
The TMRCA of Somali T has been published on YFull. It is estimated to be around 1650ybp which is incredibly young compared to E-V32.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y45591/

I'm assuming both the Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer samples are Isaaqs?

GabrielZelalem
01-16-2020, 08:40 PM
I'm assuming both the Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer samples are Isaaqs?

I guess too, even if the WG one could be Dir. The Mudug one is definitely not Isaaq tho.

The young age of our T makes me think it might’ve come through the gulf of Aden/Bab el Mandel straight. I don’t really see how the proto Cushitic speakers claim can stand tbh.

drobbah
01-16-2020, 08:47 PM
I guess too, even if the WG one could be Dir. The Mudug one is definitely not Isaaq tho.

The young age of our T makes me think it might’ve come through the gulf of Aden/Bab el Mandel straight. I don’t really see how the proto Cushitic speakers claim can stand tbh.

It seems the T Isaaqs/Dir is just one clan which explains the recent tmrca.It reminds me of the Darood E-Y163928 which has a similar tmrca to your T-BY181210 (1550 vs 1650 ybp).

drobbah
01-16-2020, 08:52 PM
Checked the T-L208 tree on yfull and there is literally no other horners besides Dir Somalis.I think we might have to wait untill the other T Horners get deep tested to come big conclusions like the idea of this lineage being a recent Middle eastern lineage.

Mnemonics
01-17-2020, 04:55 AM
There is one Eritrean under T-Y49669 but looking at the TMRCA their probably a Beni Amer Beja.

GeelJire
01-17-2020, 10:35 AM
I guess too, even if the WG one could be Dir. The Mudug one is definitely not Isaaq tho.

The young age of our T makes me think it might’ve come through the gulf of Aden/Bab el Mandel straight. I don’t really see how the proto Cushitic speakers claim can stand tbh.


They're both Garhajis. The Togdheer is Habar Yoonis (Reer Caynaanshe), the Woqooyi Galbeed is an Ciidagale.

GabrielZelalem
01-19-2020, 06:28 PM
Can't wait to have enough money to upgrade to BIG Y. Really curious to see if I'm closer to other Isaaqs or Dirs.
I'm sooooo curious to know which of the both (E-V32 and T-Y45591 Isaaqs) integrated into the broader tribe.

drobbah
01-21-2020, 04:20 AM
Can't wait to have enough money to upgrade to BIG Y. Really curious to see if I'm closer to other Isaaqs or Dirs.
I'm sooooo curious to know which of the both (E-V32 and T-Y45591 Isaaqs) integrated into the broader tribe.
Hopefully you and the other non-Garxajis T Isaaqs get deep tested and the same should be done for all the Isaaq V32 carriers from the various subclans that aren't Habar Awal.Regardless of our paternal lineage we are Isaaqs and nothing will change how we identify.

GabrielZelalem
01-21-2020, 04:05 PM
Very true walaal.

GeelJire
02-01-2020, 06:54 AM
Very true walaal.

You should definetly take the BIG Y test, it would be interesting to see the T Isaaqs TMRCA. Right now we know the HY and CG share a TMRCA of 750ypb. And the the Dir-Isaaq split has been revised to 1900ybp.

eli
02-01-2020, 08:06 AM
That is a Surre-Isaaq split. As this is not far off the str split date, it is definitely going to be the case that the Isaaq-Samaron, Ciise-Samaron, Isaaq-Ciise will have a lower split date, particularly the Samaron-Isaaq split.

GeelJire
02-01-2020, 08:21 AM
That is a Surre-Isaaq split. As this is not far off the str split date, it is definitely going to be the case that the Isaaq-Samaron, Ciise-Samaron, Isaaq-Ciise will have a lower split date, particularly the Samaron-Isaaq split.

You're right, it's the Surre-Isaaq split, i'm also guessing the Hawiye-Isaaq divergence is around the same age too (1900ybp).

eli
02-01-2020, 08:48 AM
You're right, it's the Surre-Isaaq split, i'm also guessing the Hawiye-Isaaq divergence is around the same age too (1900ybp).

Yes, probably Karanle from Galbeed, as their Str's closely match with the Surre.

Considering how the Ciise and Samaron bordered Zeila around the time of the Futuh Al Habash wars as the Afars extended all the way to Zeila in previous times, one can hypothesise that the three Northern clans probably descended from a common ancestor just before the arrival of Awbarkhadle (around 800-1000ybp). Moreover, geographically speaking, their lands are connected and they also speak in a relatively similar Somali dialect. IMO, they are probably the best representation of the ancestral pre-Islamic clan grouping that T Somalis belonged to as they are arguably closer to the point of entry of Y16897 into Somalia. Not set in stone as a South Cushite could test positive for Y16897 etc.

Nonetheless, it might be the case that T rich Somali clans all originate, ancestrally speaking, from around the same area as supported by the oral migration history of clans such as the Surre who lived further North in times gone by.

GabrielZelalem
02-01-2020, 09:44 AM
Double post sorry

GabrielZelalem
02-01-2020, 09:46 AM
I sent my saliva sample last week to FTDNAs lab. Im waiting for it to reach them in order to upgrade from Y-37 to Y-111 and eventually BigY.

One interesting thing about T-L208 in Somalis is that it seems to be exclusively restricted to the North of the peninsula. Given the few maps we could see if Ts repartition Ive always thought it was fairly distributed among Somalis and just doing crazy numbers in Dirs and Isaaqs.
I really doubt the accuracy of this map now. 36124

eli
02-01-2020, 10:43 AM
I sent my saliva sample last week to FTDNA’s lab. I’m waiting for it to reach them in order to upgrade from Y-37 to Y-111 and eventually BigY.

One interesting thing about T-L208 in Somalis is that it seems to be exclusively restricted to the North of the peninsula. Given the few maps we could see if T’s repartition I’ve always thought it was fairly distributed among Somalis and just doing crazy numbers in Dirs and Isaaqs.
I really doubt the accuracy of this map now. 36124


It is not exclusively restricted to North of the peninsula as there are many Somalis yet to be tested, Raxanweyn etc., Hawiyes also to a lesser extent.

Moreover, T-L208 is ancient in comparison to Y16897 and is found as far South as Tanzania. The reason why Y16897 is currently concentrated in Northern Somalia is due to a relatively young founder effect which for one reason or the other was successful at leaving a genetic legacy among Ciise, Isaaq and Gadabursi clans.

Dir is pre-Islamic and much older than the aforementioned post-Islam clans so I would avoid associating it with one haplogroup as macro Somali clan identities before Islam might not have been as blood based as one would assume. They very well might have been similar to confederacies found among the Oromos.

drobbah
02-01-2020, 04:25 PM
Yes, probably Karanle from Galbeed, as their Str's closely match with the Surre.

Considering how the Ciise and Samaron bordered Zeila around the time of the Futuh Al Habash wars as the Afars extended all the way to Zeila in previous times, one can hypothesise that the three Northern clans probably descended from a common ancestor just before the arrival of Awbarkhadle (around 800-1000ybp). Moreover, geographically speaking, their lands are connected and they also speak in a relatively similar Somali dialect. IMO, they are probably the best representation of the ancestral pre-Islamic clan grouping that T Somalis belonged to as they are arguably closer to the point of entry of Y16897 into Somalia. Not set in stone as a South Cushite could test positive for Y16897 etc.

Nonetheless, it might be the case that T rich Somali clans all originate, ancestrally speaking, from around the same area as supported by the oral migration history of clans such as the Surre who lived further North in times gone by.

The lands of the Isaaq T's and the Samarone are separated by the Habar Awal but I get what you mean.Also the Isaaq clan has a oral tradition of originating in the East.The tombs of the T-L208 Isaaq ancestors (Garxajis,Tol Jeclo etc) are in Maydh with the tomb of the Habar Awal ancestor being in Jidali.Do the Southern Dir have a tradition of originating in Sanaag aswell?

eli
02-01-2020, 11:34 PM
The lands of the Isaaq T's and the Samarone are separated by the Habar Awal but I get what you mean.Also the Isaaq clan has a oral tradition of originating in the East.The tombs of the T-L208 Isaaq ancestors (Garxajis,Tol Jeclo etc) are in Maydh with the tomb of the Habar Awal ancestor being in Jidali.Do the Southern Dir have a tradition of originating in Sanaag aswell?


The Surre are a Northern clan in origin, so are the Biimaal. Most Biimaal migrated South after the Futuh Wars in the 17th century.

Surre migrated in a more random fashion as most Surre subclans are Xeer Fiqis who spread the Deen. There is one small Surre sub.........subclan called Cabaas Muuse left in Sanaag today, they live with the Warsangeli of Badhan and in the nearby high lands.

As for where the clan founders are buried, I am non the wiser. Never thought to enquire about that.

Even though the Gurgura are not a Southern clan, they also originate in the Sanaag area. Their ancestor is presumably buried there in a town named after him.

I think it is pretty much settled that the prior to the formation of the Isaaq clan, the T ancestors of a section of Isaaq were in the same Dir clan grouping as their close ancestral cousins among the Samaron and Ciise. What would be interesting to discover is who the closest relatives of the E-V32 Isaaq are? Is it possible that the E-V32 found among Biimaal or other untested Dir subclans is closely related to them etc? It would be interesting to find out as we are only beginning to scratch under the surface and there is a dearth of representative Somali Y111 and Big Y samples.

drobbah
02-02-2020, 12:09 AM
The Surre are a Northern clan in origin, so are the Biimaal. Most Biimaal migrated South after the Futuh Wars in the 17th century.

Surre migrated in a more random fashion as most Surre subclans are Xeer Fiqis who spread the Deen. There is one small Surre sub.........subclan called Cabaas Muuse left in Sanaag today, they live with the Warsangeli of Badhan and in the nearby high lands.

As for where the clan founders are buried, I am non the wiser. Never thought to enquire about that.

Even though the Gurgura are not a Southern clan, they also originate in the Sanaag area. Their ancestor is presumably buried there in a town named after him.

I think it is pretty much settled that the prior to the formation of the Isaaq clan, the T ancestors of a section of Isaaq were in the same Dir clan grouping as their close ancestral cousins among the Samaron and Ciise. What would be interesting to discover is who the closest relatives of the E-V32 Isaaq are? Is it possible that the E-V32 found among Biimaal or other untested Dir subclans is closely related to them etc? It would be interesting to find out as we are only beginning to scratch under the surface and there is a dearth of representative Somali Y111 and Big Y samples.

Had no clue that E-V32 was found among the Dir.I thought they are entirely T-L208 tbh.For the Isaaqs the only E-V32 found in non-Habar Awal clans was one Habar Jeclo sample on fsmilyteedna which had the closest str results to us Habar Awal compared to other Somalis and one Arap on 23andme.Hopefully that HJ fellow takes the BigY

eli
02-02-2020, 12:43 AM
E-V32 has been found among the Biimaal. They will not be the only Dir subclan to have E-V32, especially if you add Isaaq to the mix considering that they would have been part of a historical Dir clan grouping before the adoption of a Hashemite lineage.

Many Somali macro subclans will not be uniform haplogroup wise. Especially those that were formed in pre-Islamic times. I wouldn't even be surprised if there is no uniformity among Surre T individuals as it is an old lineage. Unless they have been late adoptions, divisions lower down the subclan tree will in most cases probably reflect a genetic clan grouping nonetheless.

The Harti guy that is matched with the Isaaq on Ftdna should also shed light. Northern Somalia must have been the melting point of T, J and E-V32 Somalis when pre-Islamic clan identities were in the making.

GeelJire
02-02-2020, 06:52 AM
Considering the formation date of T-Y45591 i think we can confidently say that it didn't form within Africa. Based on STRs I think the Kuwaiti Al Faraj will have a younger TMRCA with us than the Saudi and will most likely come under T-BY181210. Does anyone have any theories as to T-BY181210 ultimate origin and likely entry point into the Horn?.

drobbah
02-03-2020, 08:14 PM
E-V32 has been found among the Biimaal. They will not be the only Dir subclan to have E-V32, especially if you add Isaaq to the mix considering that they would have been part of a historical Dir clan grouping before the adoption of a Hashemite lineage.

Many Somali macro subclans will not be uniform haplogroup wise. Especially those that were formed in pre-Islamic times. I wouldn't even be surprised if there is no uniformity among Surre T individuals as it is an old lineage. Unless they have been late adoptions, divisions lower down the subclan tree will in most cases probably reflect a genetic clan grouping nonetheless.

The Harti guy that is matched with the Isaaq on Ftdna should also shed light. Northern Somalia must have been the melting point of T, J and E-V32 Somalis when pre-Islamic clan identities were in the making.

I'm honestly of the belief that the T-L208 were Dirs but once they joined up and created a political alliance with other Northern clans (Habar Awal,Sanbuur,Arap and segments of Habar Jeclo) and became a clan in our own right.I think this is why the Isaaqs created this Hashemite myth in order to create some sort of founder myth kinda like the Roman's did with Romulus or the Arabs with Qahtan/Ismail.

Do you have a link to the Harti kit that matches us Isaaqs? Perhaps his subclan was an assimilated Habar Jeclo lineage

GeelJire
02-03-2020, 10:43 PM
I'm quite skeptical of T Harti, the "Warsangeli" Tuure seem to be a recently assimilated Dir clan. I.M Lewis in his Galla of Northern Somaliland lists them among the Dir of Cerigabo district and adds that some of these clans identify with the larger Darod and Isaaq clans.


But in this region today only a few very small Dir remnants survive. Such are the Gambelle, Magadle, Madigan 1), Irdodub, Madobe,
Minsulk, Turre and Gurgure, of whom only a few individuals of each group seem to survive today in Erigavo District where they are attached to, and often completely identified with, the stronger local Isaq and
Darod clans with whom they live.

eli
02-06-2020, 03:31 AM
Considering the formation date of T-Y45591 i think we can confidently say that it didn't form within Africa. Based on STRs I think the Kuwaiti Al Faraj will have a younger TMRCA with us than the Saudi and will most likely come under T-BY181210. Does anyone have any theories as to T-BY181210 ultimate origin and likely entry point into the Horn?.

It probably did not form in Africa, I agree. However, based on the analysis done by Esteban using the Somali FTDNA Y111 samples, the Al Faraj sample will most likely not fall under T-BY181210 as the Somalis form a cluster that are closer to each other that they are to the Al Faraj sample.

In a previous post, I made generalisations about Somali Y16897 samples. How closely/distantly related the Iacovacci Ciise, Hawiye AND K5 samples are to the Y111/YFull Somali samples cannot yet be confirmed as those samples are based on a limited number of STR's. For instance, before the Surre Y111 tests results became available, it was assumed that the Al Faraj sample was closer to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 modal haplotype than the Surre sample. I do think that the K5 and the one Hawiye sample in Iacovacci will be closer to the Surre whilst the Ciise sample will be close to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 samples but it is best to be cautious until they are tested further.

T-BY181210 is evidently the result of a founder effect not a mass migration of 'Arabs'. I don't know if he was a Semite or not but what I do know is that it was so long that there is no oral or written evidence of this. We can only go by DNA evidence and try to piece together whether his POSSIBLE migration was connected to events such as the adoption of Arabian short horned Zebu cattle and camels by Cushites when they reached Northern Somalia or was he a Middle Eastern merchant in Northern Somalia whose descendants went native?

eli
02-06-2020, 03:58 AM
I'm honestly of the belief that the T-L208 were Dirs but once they joined up and created a political alliance with other Northern clans (Habar Awal,Sanbuur,Arap and segments of Habar Jeclo) and became a clan in our own right.I think this is why the Isaaqs created this Hashemite myth in order to create some sort of founder myth kinda like the Roman's did with Romulus or the Arabs with Qahtan/Ismail.

Do you have a link to the Harti kit that matches us Isaaqs? Perhaps his subclan was an assimilated Habar Jeclo lineage

The Hashemite myth is a more recent phenomenon as demonstrated by the fact that the Isaaq clan was associated with a Dir lineage in historical texts of Western explorers and in historical Somali poetry itself. Even today, you have Isaaq Sultans, the Habar Awal Sultan being one example, and politicians openly identifying with a Dir lineage.

It is more likely that the ancestors of T Dirs just simply ended up outnumbering other DNA lineage groups that they co-inhabited with in North-West Somalia.

The kit you are interested in is on FTDNA, ask the Somali FTDNA administrator about it as he has access to who the sample belongs to.

drobbah
02-06-2020, 04:41 AM
The Hashemite myth is a more recent phenomenon as demonstrated by the fact that the Isaaq clan was associated with a Dir lineage in historical texts of Western explorers and in historical Somali poetry itself. Even today, you have Isaaq Sultans, the Habar Awal Sultan being one example, and politicians openly identifying with a Dir lineage.

It is more likely that the ancestors of T Dirs just simply ended up outnumbering other DNA lineage groups that they co-inhabited with in North-West Somalia.

The kit you are interested in is on FTDNA, ask the Somali FTDNA administrator about it as he has access to who the sample belongs to.

I don't think it was a recent phenomenon as the tombs and holy sites of the Isaaq clan from Sanaag (Maydh tombs) to Waaqoyi Galbeed (Aw Barkhadle) shows that we identified as an independent clan for quite some time, possibly for centuries.The current politics like the Isaaq Suldaans attending Dir functions in Ethiopia is nothing more than creating an anti-Darood political front in the Somali region of Ethiopia.

I don't see any Harti T on the Somali project or the main T-M70 project on ftdna but I'll keep an eye out for the kit

eli
02-06-2020, 06:43 AM
I don't think it was a recent phenomenon as the tombs and holy sites of the Isaaq clan from Sanaag (Maydh tombs) to Waaqoyi Galbeed (Aw Barkhadle) shows that we identified as an independent clan for quite some time, possibly for centuries.The current politics like the Isaaq Suldaans attending Dir functions in Ethiopia is nothing more than creating an anti-Darood political front in the Somali region of Ethiopia.

I don't see any Harti T on the Somali project or the main T-M70 project on ftdna but I'll keep an eye out for the kit


There is nothing unique about clan tombs in the Sanaag region as several clans claim their ancestor is buried in the region. For instance, the Ciise clan ancestor is reputedly buried not far from the Isaaq clan founder, so are the Gadabursi and Darood clans etc. It is not an indicator of a separate historical clan identity.

As for Sheekh AwBarkhadle, he is considered a Saintly figure among all Somalis as he was influential in preaching Islam to Somalis as exemplified by how he simplified the Arabic alphabet for Somalis so as to enable them to read/memorise the Quran. The traditional way of learning the Quran is a legacy of his. The mythological story of Bucur Bacayr probably reflects the crucial role he played in Somalis abandoning their pagan beliefs and adopting Islam. His burial place was a pan-Somali pilgrimage site.

You are right, the Isaaq have been an independent clan for centuries but so have neighbouring clans such as Ciise, Harti, Ogaden etc. Neither Ciise or Gadabursi will self-identify as Dir first. There is an awareness among their elders of belonging to a historical Dir clan identity but that is about it. Umbrella clan identities such as Dir and Darood are not cohesive units, and have not been since around the Middle Ages. By the 16th century, most Somali subclans acted independently as exemplified by how they fielded separate armies during the Futuh Wars.

My reference to the Hashemite clan identity being a recent innovation is based on the fact that you would not have Isaaqs identifying or being identified as Dir by other Somalis as late as the early 20th century if a Hashemite identity had been formed in the Middle Ages or so when the Isaaq clan is rumoured to have formed. For instance, Northern Somalia, the two main divisions have traditionally been Dir and Darood, Isaaq have never been considered to be on the same ancestral level as these two clan divisions by their neighbouring Somalis. For instance, the Habar Yoonis poet, Ismaacil Cigaal Bulaale self-identifying with Dir in his riposte to the Dhulbahante Darood Cali Dhuux in the Guba chain of poems.

Adaa Dir iyo Daarood dhex dhigay, dab iyo baaruude
Dacar gelisey reerihii ahaa, ul iyo diirkeede
Mugga haatan dirir uumiyuhu, waa is dilayaaye

https://www.doollo.com/mainpage/boggasuugaanta/guba/guba.htm

Or closer to home in your case, an intra-Habar Awal poetic exchange from the early 20th century in which the two divisions of Dir and Darood are also referenced. The poet is Habar Awal Bah Gobo.

Daaraha Mareexaan haddii, deeqa lagu oodo
Oo Dir iyo Daarood kulmoo, dayrna lagu meersho
Doonyaha hadaad halabsataan, Dubay u dhoofaya
Dakadaha cadmeed iyo haddii, macala loo dayro

https://www.hoygasuugaanta.com/Cige-Qoob-Adhiile.htm

As for the Habar Awal Sultan attending a 'Dir' clan conference, would it not be controversial if a Hawiye Sultan attended a Darood clan conference claiming to be Darood etc? The point I am trying to make is that no traditional umbrella Somali clan is considered to be a branch of another clan hence why you will not see Hawiye or Dir or Darood etc. claiming to be a subclan of each other.

Anyway, this a is a genetic anthropology thread, not a social anthropology one lol so let us not deviate from the point of the thread.

Sorry, look up SNP results on the T FTDNA results page. There is no STR data for the Warsangeli sample and he has not tested for the Y16897 subclade, just T-L208. I am sure he will probably be Y16897 like other Somali T's.

drobbah
02-06-2020, 09:19 PM
There is nothing unique about clan tombs in the Sanaag region as several clans claim their ancestor is buried in the region. For instance, the Ciise clan ancestor is reputedly buried not far from the Isaaq clan founder, so are the Gadabursi and Darood clans etc. It is not an indicator of a separate historical clan identity.

As for Sheekh AwBarkhadle, he is considered a Saintly figure among all Somalis as he was influential in preaching Islam to Somalis as exemplified by how he simplified the Arabic alphabet for Somalis so as to enable them to read/memorise the Quran. The traditional way of learning the Quran is a legacy of his. The mythological story of Bucur Bacayr probably reflects the crucial role he played in Somalis abandoning their pagan beliefs and adopting Islam. His burial place was a pan-Somali pilgrimage site.

You are right, the Isaaq have been an independent clan for centuries but so have neighbouring clans such as Ciise, Harti, Ogaden etc. Neither Ciise or Gadabursi will self-identify as Dir first. There is an awareness among their elders of belonging to a historical Dir clan identity but that is about it. Umbrella clan identities such as Dir and Darood are not cohesive units, and have not been since around the Middle Ages. By the 16th century, most Somali subclans acted independently as exemplified by how they fielded separate armies during the Futuh Wars.

My reference to the Hashemite clan identity being a recent innovation is based on the fact that you would not have Isaaqs identifying or being identified as Dir by other Somalis as late as the early 20th century if a Hashemite identity had been formed in the Middle Ages or so when the Isaaq clan is rumoured to have formed. For instance, Northern Somalia, the two main divisions have traditionally been Dir and Darood, Isaaq have never been considered to be on the same ancestral level as these two clan divisions by their neighbouring Somalis. For instance, the Habar Yoonis poet, Ismaacil Cigaal Bulaale self-identifying with Dir in his riposte to the Dhulbahante Darood Cali Dhuux in the Guba chain of poems.

Adaa Dir iyo Daarood dhex dhigay, dab iyo baaruude
Dacar gelisey reerihii ahaa, ul iyo diirkeede
Mugga haatan dirir uumiyuhu, waa is dilayaaye

https://www.doollo.com/mainpage/boggasuugaanta/guba/guba.htm

Or closer to home in your case, an intra-Habar Awal poetic exchange from the early 20th century in which the two divisions of Dir and Darood are also referenced. The poet is Habar Awal Bah Gobo.

Daaraha Mareexaan haddii, deeqa lagu oodo
Oo Dir iyo Daarood kulmoo, dayrna lagu meersho
Doonyaha hadaad halabsataan, Dubay u dhoofaya
Dakadaha cadmeed iyo haddii, macala loo dayro

https://www.hoygasuugaanta.com/Cige-Qoob-Adhiile.htm

As for the Habar Awal Sultan attending a 'Dir' clan conference, would it not be controversial if a Hawiye Sultan attended a Darood clan conference claiming to be Darood etc? The point I am trying to make is that no traditional umbrella Somali clan is considered to be a branch of another clan hence why you will not see Hawiye or Dir or Darood etc. claiming to be a subclan of each other.

Anyway, this a is a genetic anthropology thread, not a social anthropology one lol so let us not deviate from the point of the thread.

Sorry, look up SNP results on the T FTDNA results page. There is no STR data for the Warsangeli sample and he has not tested for the Y16897 subclade, just T-L208. I am sure he will probably be Y16897 like other Somali T's.

I found the Warsengali T-L208, I think he just might be an assimilated Dir from the region like the Magaadle clan for example or a possible HY or HJ lineage assimilated into the Warsengali which is very interesting .Hopefully he takes the Big Y!

GeelJire
02-07-2020, 04:33 AM
It probably did not form in Africa, I agree. However, based on the analysis done by Esteban using the Somali FTDNA Y111 samples, the Al Faraj sample will most likely not fall under T-BY181210 as the Somalis form a cluster that are closer to each other that they are to the Al Faraj sample.

In a previous post, I made generalisations about Somali Y16897 samples. How closely/distantly related the Iacovacci Ciise, Hawiye AND K5 samples are to the Y111/YFull Somali samples cannot yet be confirmed as those samples are based on a limited number of STR's. For instance, before the Surre Y111 tests results became available, it was assumed that the Al Faraj sample was closer to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 modal haplotype than the Surre sample. I do think that the K5 and the one Hawiye sample in Iacovacci will be closer to the Surre whilst the Ciise sample will be close to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 samples but it is best to be cautious until they are tested further.

T-BY181210 is evidently the result of a founder effect not a mass migration of 'Arabs'. I don't know if he was a Semite or not but what I do know is that it was so long that there is no oral or written evidence of this. We can only go by DNA evidence and try to piece together whether his POSSIBLE migration was connected to events such as the adoption of Arabian short horned Zebu cattle and camels by Cushites when they reached Northern Somalia or was he a Middle Eastern merchant in Northern Somalia whose descendants went native?


The Kuwaiti (Kit 300440) is most definitely closer to us than the Saudi sample (Kit M6077) and should have a TMRCA under 3000ybp, which is why i assumed that the Kuwaiti might fall under T-BY181210 since its formation date is 3000ybp, or do you believe the SNPs that define this clade are specific to Somalis only?.

GeelJire
03-07-2020, 01:24 PM
Can't wait to have enough money to upgrade to BIG Y. Really curious to see if I'm closer to other Isaaqs or Dirs.
I'm sooooo curious to know which of the both (E-V32 and T-Y45591 Isaaqs) integrated into the broader tribe.

Gabriel, you're Bah Goba, right?. I was reading Richard Burton's book First foot steps and the Somalis he encountered relayed to him a common qabiil myth that Bah Goba are the ancestors of the Gudabiirsi, seeing as you might possibly belong to the only HG T Sacad Muuse sub clan i think there might be some truth to it, it can't be mere coincindence.

Screenshot from Book
36720

drobbah
03-07-2020, 01:38 PM
Gabriel, you're Bah Goba, right?. I was reading Richard Burton's book First foot steps and the Somalis he encountered relayed to him a common qabiil myth that Bah Goba are the ancestors of the Gudabiirsi, seeing as you might possibly belong to the only HG T Sacad Muuse sub clan i think there might be some truth to it, it can't be mere coincindence.

Screenshot from Book
36720

How can you confirm that all Bah Gob are T-M70? We could have a case of false paternity or a specific sheegad lineage within Bah Gob.We need other Bah Gobs to test in order to come to such a conclusion.As of now E-V32 is the only haplogroup among Habar Awal that is found in every branch of the Habar Awal clan.There are results of different subclans of various Hussein Abokors from the reer Samatar to the Nuux Ismaciil and various Jibriil Abokors (reer Xareed,Reer Dalal,Baha Cumar and reer Yoonis ) also some of the Sacad Muusaha yaryar.

GeelJire
03-07-2020, 02:55 PM
How can you confirm that all Bah Gob are T-M70? We could have a case of false paternity or a specific sheegad lineage within Bah Gob.We need other Bah Gobs to test in order to come to such a conclusion.As of now E-V32 is the only haplogroup among Habar Awal that is found in every branch of the Habar Awal clan.There are results of different subclans of various Hussein Abokors from the reer Samatar to the Nuux Ismaciil and various Jibriil Abokors (reer Xareed,Reer Dalal,Baha Cumar and reer Yoonis ) also some of the Sacad Muusaha yaryar.

I don't doubt that Habar Awal are majority E-V32. I agree, we cant say that Bahgoba are 100% T, but since they're a small clan i would expect homogeniety in regards to their Haplogroup.

A non paternity event is unlikely as Somalis don't usually engage in extra marital affairs and observe a 3 month cidda period after divorce so as to assure there's no pregnancy.

There's also Somali oral stories that connect Gadabiirsi to Garhajis, these stories claim that Samaroon was a son of Ismail (Garhajis). Do you think its coincidence that these Hap Ts clans were linked together before the advent of DNA?. I don't. Gudabiirsi could be an offshoot of Garhajis or Bah Goba.

Drake Brockman 1912
36722

Habar Awal elder recounts the Garhajis-Samaroon story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQrgXARGHeA

drobbah
03-07-2020, 04:38 PM
I don't doubt that Habar Awal are majority E-V32. I agree, we cant say that Bahgoba are 100% T, but since they're a small clan i would expect homogeniety in regards to their Haplogroup.

A non paternity event is unlikely as Somalis don't usually engage in extra marital affairs and observe a 3 month cidda period after divorce so as to assure there's no pregnancy.

There's also Somali oral stories that connect Gadabiirsi to Garhajis, these stories claim that Samaroon was a son of Ismail (Garhajis). Do you think its coincidence that these Hap Ts clans were linked together before the advent of DNA?. I don't. Gudabiirsi could be an offshoot of Garhajis or Bah Goba.

Drake Brockman 1912
36722

Habar Awal elder recounts the Garhajis-Samaroon story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQrgXARGHeA

You'd be surprised that it does happen even in Somaliland.My old man knows a couple of guys back home who are technically "bastards" but assume their stepfather's clan.

GeelJire
03-08-2020, 12:39 AM
Extra/pre-Marital sex does happen but it's not that prevalent due to our conservative religious and cultural beliefs, that's why Somalis have some of the lowest HIV cases in Africa. A non paternity event is possible but not likely imo.

drobbah
03-08-2020, 08:10 AM
Extra/pre-Marital sex does happen but it's not that prevalent due to our conservative religious and cultural beliefs, that's why Somalis have some of the lowest HIV cases in Africa. A non paternity event is possible but not likely imo.

Regardless I still need to see a couple more Bah Gob's to confirm whether or not they are a clan that have been assimilated by Hussein Abokor or if this is a case of false paternity.

GabrielZelalem
03-08-2020, 03:14 PM
Gabriel, you're Bah Goba, right?. I was reading Richard Burton's book First foot steps and the Somalis he encountered relayed to him a common qabiil myth that Bah Goba are the ancestors of the Gudabiirsi, seeing as you might possibly belong to the only HG T Sacad Muuse sub clan i think there might be some truth to it, it can't be mere coincindence.

Screenshot from Book
36720

Well, Y-37 results came in today and all my matches are Isaaq.

GeelJire
03-08-2020, 03:22 PM
Well, Y-37 results came in today and all my matches are Isaaq.

Great! Could you share your STR results with us?

GabrielZelalem
03-08-2020, 03:38 PM
here it is
36736

GeelJire
03-08-2020, 07:18 PM
here it is
36736

Your STRs are pretty much almost identical with the other T-M70 members. The next step for you would be BIG Y so we can see how closely related you are to the Garhajis. It would also be interesting to see the TMRCA you have with the Ciise Muuse T-M70s, lets hope one takes the test.

drobbah
03-08-2020, 07:23 PM
Your STRs are pretty much almost identical with the other T-M70 members. The next step for you would be BIG Y so we can see how closely related you are to the Garhajis. It would also be interesting to see the TMRCA you have with the Ciise Muuse T-M70s, lets hope one takes the test.

You really are trying real hard to turn Habar Awal into a fake clan.Where are these mythical Ciise Muuse T-M70s?

GeelJire
03-08-2020, 07:47 PM
You really are trying real hard to turn Habar Awal into a fake clan.Where are these mythical Ciise Muuse T-M70s?

That's a weird accusation lol, where have i tried hard to turn HA into a "fake clan"?. Numerous people on 23andMe have reported on Ciise Muuse Ts, you can go investigate yourself. Most Somali clans have inconsistencies when it comes to Y-DNA, why does the fact that HA having multiple Haplogroups bother you?.

drobbah
03-08-2020, 07:52 PM
That's a weird accusation lol, where have i tried hard to turn HA into a "fake clan"?. Numerous people on 23andMe have reported on Ciise Muuse Ts, you can go investigate yourself. Most Somali clans have inconsistencies when it comes to Y-DNA, why does the fact that HA having multiple Haplogroups bother you?.

Can I just go around claiming there are numerous Ciidigale E-V32s without proof? You clearly have some anti-Habar Awal undertones.

GabrielZelalem
03-08-2020, 08:00 PM
Get your feelings aside walaal. The Isaaq clan’s very existence is based on a fake kinship to the Hashemites. I personally don’t care about our tribes being fake or legit. I didn’t get mad when you guys were discussing if I was the descendant of a bastardized HA lineage lol. (Not said that way, but could’ve easily been read like this)
Somalis and abtirsiyin consistency don’t get along apparently :P

drobbah
03-08-2020, 08:14 PM
Get your feelings aside walaal. The Isaaq clan’s very existence is based on a fake kinship to the Hashemites. I personally don’t care about our tribes being fake or legit. I didn’t get mad when you guys were discussing if I was the descendant of a bastardized HA lineage lol. (Not said that way, but could’ve easily been read like this)
Somalis and abtirsiyin consistency don’t get along apparently :P

We have Habar Awals from every major branch that have consistent haplogroups and strs.This assertion he's making is to make it appear as if Habar Awal didn't exist.He's also doesn't even have enough knowledge about the region which is why he's making things up like Bah Gob being Samarone because they are T when you're the only sample.

GeelJire
03-08-2020, 08:19 PM
Can I just go around claiming there are numerous Ciidigale E-V32s without proof? You clearly have some anti-Habar Awal undertones.

If it was just one person saying this then i would be skeptical but many people on 23andMe have told me this. Do you believe all these people are colluding in some anti-HA conspiracy lol. I don't understand how commenting on Ciise T-M70 can be construed as being anti-HA, mate you've got some issues. This is an anthropology and genetics forum, if you're going to be upset about people commenting on the genetics of your tribe then this isn't the place for you.

GeelJire
03-08-2020, 08:24 PM
We have Habar Awals from every major branch that have consistent haplogroups and strs.This assertion he's making is to make it appear as if Habar Awal didn't exist.He's also doesn't even have enough knowledge about the region which is why he's making things up like Bah Gob being Samarone because they are T when you're the only sample.

I didn't even comment on Habr Awal existence or non existence, where are you getting this from?. And a minor correction, i didn't claim Bahgob are Samarone, i shared an excerpt from Burtons book that claimed Samaron are descended from Bahgobo (Habr Awal) and i believe there might be some truth to it.

drobbah
03-08-2020, 08:28 PM
I didn't even comment on Habr Awal existence or non existence, where are you getting this from?. And a minor correction, i didn't claim Bahgob are Samarone, i shared an excerpt from Burtons book that claimed Samaron are descended from Bahgobo (Habr Awal) and i believe there might be some truth to it.

Buddy you do realize you are speaking to a Baha Cumar from Arabsiyo which we share with the Bah Gob minority? I know Bah Gob like my back hand considering my father side intermixed with them for generations and my family members never heard of this myth.

Let's say we take Jibril's results as representative of Bah Bah Gob.Why would they be related to Samarone and not the Tol Jeclo minority of Gabiley region? Like I said earlier you have no clue about my region

Administrator
03-09-2020, 10:43 PM
This is a very stern warning to all of you to please refresh yourselves with the Terms of Service, which you all agreed to when you registered. This thread is being monitored. If further inflammatory, racist or pseudoscience type posts (which often lead to inflammatory posts) are made, infractions will follow.

Monk307
03-12-2020, 08:07 AM
I didn't even comment on Habr Awal existence or non existence, where are you getting this from?. And a minor correction, i didn't claim Bahgob are Samarone, i shared an excerpt from Burtons book that claimed Samaron are descended from Bahgobo (Habr Awal) and i believe there might be some truth to it.

Are you seriously using Richard Burton as a reference? First of all, as someone who is Samaroon, we have no traditional accounts of any such relationship with the Bahgoba subclan. Chronologically speaking its IMPOSSIBLE. Bahgoba is a sub sub sub clan of Habr Awal. Bahgoba probably existed in the last 300-400 years max based on abtirsi whereas the Samaroon existed for at least 700-800 yers ago based on abtirsi. Its chronologically impossible and no Gadabursi ever recounts this 'link'. The only person to have ever mentioned this was Richard Burton who was extremely hostile to the Gadabursi and whose guide was a Bahgoba man who probably fed him some fake news. If anything, any Habr Awal T is more likely to come from the Gadabursi/ Dir and not the other way round because Gadabursi are overwhelmingly, if not almost exclusively T, whereas Habr Awal are majority E-v32.

Traditionally, we descend from Madaluug and the abtirsi is Cali (Gadabuursi) Madaluug who is the son of Dir. Madaluug had many offspring such as Cali Daud Madaluug (Gadabuursi), Isaaq Madaluug (Not Isaaq from Somaliland), Ahmed Madaluug, Jirde Madaluug and others. The only Madaluug subclan who still live in Waqooyi are the Gadabuursi. The rest live in Ethiopia, Shebeele, and Juba specifically Jamaame Region.

This is a video of Madaluug in Southern Somalia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPscHrwRrbw

Image of the leader of Madaluug clan in Juba:
36772

GabrielZelalem
04-04-2020, 05:57 AM
I've been added to the chart of the FTDNA Somali Project. Kit number is B448380.

GabrielZelalem
05-03-2020, 04:56 PM
All my 111 str’s results are now on the project’s page, closely matches other Somalis, especially Habar Yoonis.
All my matches disappear on FTDNA when I chose 111 Marker.

GabrielZelalem
06-20-2020, 08:14 PM
I’ve been successfully added to the Isaaq subclade on YFull :). According to FTDNA I belong to T-BY56427.

GeelJire
06-22-2020, 03:34 AM
I’ve been successfully added to the Isaaq subclade on YFull :). According to FTDNA I belong to T-BY56427.

Are you the Djiboutian (id:YF74859) on yfull?. I assumed that was Cobra from Sspot who also took the BIG-Y. I think Northern Dirs like Gadabursi and Ciise will fall under T-FGC92488 and it won't be exclusive to Isaaqs.

GabrielZelalem
06-22-2020, 05:47 AM
Yep that’s my kit number. Given the very recent TMRCA I am quite confident only Isaaq will fall under it.

GeelJire
06-22-2020, 07:07 AM
Yep that’s my kit number. Given the very recent TMRCA I am quite confident only Isaaq will fall under it.

It maybe exclusive to Isaaqs but the TMRCA might be revised when your sample is fully anaylzed. Remember the Mudug Sample and Togdheer initially had a TMRCA at 1650ybp but when the Waqooyi Galbeed uploaded it went up to 1900ypb. Could happen in this case.

Mnemonics
09-20-2020, 04:53 PM
Seems like another Saudi with T-Y45591* has been added to Yfull, they are apparently from Asir which shares a border with Yemen.

drobbah
09-22-2020, 03:48 AM
This seems to be the nail in the coffin for those of us that perhaps thought the Dir clade was of Cushitic origin.Considering the date when the Dir clade was formed, is it plausible that these migrants not only brought camel domestication to the pre-proto Somalis but also an autosomal impact on the genepool of the locals?

I recall reading that there are Ancient Yemenite loanwords relating to camel herding in the Rendille language and the fact that the Rendille in G25 seem to also have similar levels of Yemenite ancestry compared to many Somali individuals despite being more SSA shifted.

This was in a paper about Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali:

NS qalin m. and qaaln f. (pl. qaalm-) ‘young camel or calf when
it approaches sexual maturity’ (nef gel h ama l’ oo d’ yr
Yaasiin Cismaan Keenadiid 1976: 333b), with ġ > q and -m > -n in
syllable coda, that are regular developments. From the Semitic root
ĠLM, attested in Sabaic ġlm ‘boy, child’, or directly from Ar. ġālim
(participle of ġalima) or ġalim both meaning ‘excited by lust’, from
the same root Ar. has ġillīm ‘(he-camel) excited by lust’ and ġulām
‘a young man, youth’. The present author already pointed out (Banti
2000) that it also occurs in Rendille khalim m. ‘male camel calf’
and khaalm f. ‘female camel calf’ and is thus unlikely to be a recent
loanword. The ASA hypothesis assigns qaalin to the oldest core of
camel-related terms that entered the eastern Horn, together with
*gaala ‘camel’ > NS gel; in this case, the extension to bovine
calves is a secondary development.

Mnemonics
09-22-2020, 08:08 AM
If I remember correctly East African dromedaries are closely related to South Arabian dromedaries with East Africa camels having the most diverse mtdna of all the tested modern breeds. If we assume that camels arrived in Eastern Africa via the Red Sea relatively soon after they were domesticated (which would explain the mtdna diversity) then I could see T-Y16897 coming along with it.

I would be really interested to see if the various Tanzanian T-M184 rich populations have are also T-Y45591, or if they completely different branches like the Lemba.

GabrielZelalem
09-22-2020, 09:10 AM
If I remember correctly East African dromedaries are closely related to South Arabian dromedaries with East Africa camels having the most diverse mtdna of all the tested modern breeds. If we assume that camels arrived in Eastern Africa via the Red Sea relatively soon after they were domesticated (which would explain the mtdna diversity) then I could see T-Y16897 coming along with it.

I would be really interested to see if the various Tanzanian T-M184 rich populations have are also T-Y45591, or if they completely different branches like the Lemba.

Apparently the Tanzanian sample belongs to a whole different T-L209 subclade. Saw that on the Haplogroup T facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/T.M184/permalink/10159216210828868/) where the owner has quite a good amount of knowledge about everything related to T-M70.

They assume he'd belong to T-Y16244 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-Y16244/?fbclid=IwAR2nGv5nEAuZsdTn2BlwSse8RxYh5YXPDVilCYwX JmNeVf-b0324_RsNvn4)

drobbah
09-22-2020, 11:50 AM
If I remember correctly East African dromedaries are closely related to South Arabian dromedaries with East Africa camels having the most diverse mtdna of all the tested modern breeds. If we assume that camels arrived in Eastern Africa via the Red Sea relatively soon after they were domesticated (which would explain the mtdna diversity) then I could see T-Y16897 coming along with it.

I would be really interested to see if the various Tanzanian T-M184 rich populations have are also T-Y45591, or if they completely different branches like the Lemba.
The Sanaag J1 sample on yfull is also of similar age to the Dir T clade although a bit older.It is also related to Southern Yemenis,Hadhramawt and Omani samples with Oman being the region where dromedary camels were first domesticated.Perhaps Somali J1 which was less successful than T entered the Horn together

Mnemonics
09-22-2020, 07:29 PM
Seems like the new Saudi sample is from Rijal Almaa, which was fairly common crossing point for pilgrims for a very long time.

GeelJire
10-08-2020, 12:55 AM
Not sure if the analysis is done for the Almaa, but it's looking like he is no more closer to his fellow Saudi than to the Somalis. I think this points to T-Y45591 diversity in the Arabian peninsula, which only strengthens to red sea/Gulf migration theory.

Mnemonics
10-30-2020, 08:34 AM
Not sure if the analysis is done for the Almaa, but it's looking like he is no more closer to his fellow Saudi than to the Somalis. I think this points to T-Y45591 diversity in the Arabian peninsula, which only strengthens to red sea/Gulf migration theory.

It seems like the Asir sample is closer to Somalis than the one from Mecca. The live Yfull tree has them as forming a clade ( T-BY182320) with the Dir/Isaaq samples.

eli
12-19-2020, 09:55 PM
The T-Y45591 tree has been updated. TMRCA has decreased.

Nonetheless, it will change as more samples will be uploaded. I believe there are three more Somali Dante samples being processed; two Samaron and one Surre.

Mnemonics
12-20-2020, 01:11 AM
1850 ybp... that is a surprisingly young TMRCA. If that Kuwaiti is even closer that might move the TMRCA even closer.

I will be really surprised if it turns out that it post-dates Islam.

eli
12-20-2020, 01:39 AM
1850 ybp... that is a surprisingly young TMRCA. If that Kuwaiti is even closer that might move the TMRCA even closer.

I will be really surprised if it turns out that it post-dates Islam.

Going by how the Somali E-V32 tree TMRCA decreased as more Somalis uploaded to Yfull, it can be hypothesised that a similar TMRCA adjustment could also possibly occur to the T-Y45591 tree. If the Somali subclade post-dates Islam, unlikely going by current STR data, the mystery of this lineage's presence in the Somali ethnic group increases as there is no solid socio-historical evidence to support such an ancestral origin theory.

drobbah
12-20-2020, 02:20 AM
Going by how the Somali E-V32 tree TMRCA decreased as more Somalis uploaded to Yfull, it can be hypothesised that a similar TMRCA adjustment could also possibly occur to the T-Y45591 tree. If the Somali subclade post-dates Islam, unlikely going by current STR data, the mystery of this lineage's presence in the Somali ethnic group increases as there is no solid socio-historical evidence to support such an ancestral origin theory.
When did this lineage enter the Horn and where did it come from?

eli
12-20-2020, 02:45 AM
When did this lineage enter the Horn and where did it come from?

I know as much as you do!

As we come from an oral society, we ain't got much to work with.

MujihaD
12-24-2020, 11:30 PM
There is another Almaa (different sub-tribe) person on fdtna haplogroub T project



42021