Somalis and T-Y16897

[NetNomad]

Somalis have a comparatively high frequency of haplogroup T to the rest of the world, but it is mostly only T-Y16897 (not very diverse).

Possibly even only T-Y45591 (TMRCA 2900 ybp)?? So clearly not the place of origin.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

[AndresT]

Somalis have a comparatively high frequency of haplogroup T to the rest of the world, but it is mostly only T-Y16897 (not very diverse).

Possibly even only T-Y45591 (TMRCA 2900 ybp)?? So clearly not the place of origin.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

All belongs to Y45591 except any eventual penetration of surrounding populations that carried another extremely distant T branch (not found any example of this possibility yet)

This possibility of a Horn of Africa origin never was proposed by any serious individual. Frequency is not equal to origin.

[NetNomad]

All belongs to Y45591 except any eventual penetration of surrounding populations that carried another extremely distant T branch (not found any example of this possibility yet)

This possibility of a Horn of Africa origin never was proposed by any serious individual. Frequency is not equal to origin.

Do you know if Southeast African (Kenya, Tanzania etc) T carriers are under the same general subclade (T-Y16897) as Somali ones? Excluding recent admixed populations like the Lemba, Swahili, or Comorians.

There is an ancient Cushitic genetic substratum all across Southeast Africa. Hence, the question. Thank in advance.

[GabrielZelalem]

The TMRCA of Somali T has been published on YFull. It is estimated to be around 1650ybp which is incredibly young compared to E-V32.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y45591/

[drobbah]

The TMRCA of Somali T has been published on YFull. It is estimated to be around 1650ybp which is incredibly young compared to E-V32.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y45591/

I'm assuming both the Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer samples are Isaaqs?

[GabrielZelalem]

I'm assuming both the Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer samples are Isaaqs?

I guess too, even if the WG one could be Dir. The Mudug one is definitely not Isaaq tho.

The young age of our T makes me think it might’ve come through the gulf of Aden/Bab el Mandel straight. I don’t really see how the proto Cushitic speakers claim can stand tbh.

[drobbah]

I guess too, even if the WG one could be Dir. The Mudug one is definitely not Isaaq tho.

The young age of our T makes me think it might’ve come through the gulf of Aden/Bab el Mandel straight. I don’t really see how the proto Cushitic speakers claim can stand tbh.

It seems the T Isaaqs/Dir is just one clan which explains the recent tmrca.It reminds me of the Darood E-Y163928 which has a similar tmrca to your T-BY181210 (1550 vs 1650 ybp).

[drobbah]

Checked the T-L208 tree on yfull and there is literally no other horners besides Dir Somalis.I think we might have to wait untill the other T Horners get deep tested to come big conclusions like the idea of this lineage being a recent Middle eastern lineage.

[Mnemonics]

There is one Eritrean under T-Y49669 but looking at the TMRCA their probably a Beni Amer Beja.

[GeelJire]

I guess too, even if the WG one could be Dir. The Mudug one is definitely not Isaaq tho.

The young age of our T makes me think it might’ve come through the gulf of Aden/Bab el Mandel straight. I don’t really see how the proto Cushitic speakers claim can stand tbh.


They're both Garhajis. The Togdheer is Habar Yoonis (Reer Caynaanshe), the Woqooyi Galbeed is an Ciidagale.

[GabrielZelalem]

Can't wait to have enough money to upgrade to BIG Y. Really curious to see if I'm closer to other Isaaqs or Dirs.
I'm sooooo curious to know which of the both (E-V32 and T-Y45591 Isaaqs) integrated into the broader tribe.

[drobbah]

Can't wait to have enough money to upgrade to BIG Y. Really curious to see if I'm closer to other Isaaqs or Dirs.
I'm sooooo curious to know which of the both (E-V32 and T-Y45591 Isaaqs) integrated into the broader tribe.
Hopefully you and the other non-Garxajis T Isaaqs get deep tested and the same should be done for all the Isaaq V32 carriers from the various subclans that aren't Habar Awal.Regardless of our paternal lineage we are Isaaqs and nothing will change how we identify.

[GabrielZelalem]

Very true walaal.

[GeelJire]

Very true walaal.

You should definetly take the BIG Y test, it would be interesting to see the T Isaaqs TMRCA. Right now we know the HY and CG share a TMRCA of 750ypb. And the the Dir-Isaaq split has been revised to 1900ybp.

[eli]

That is a Surre-Isaaq split. As this is not far off the str split date, it is definitely going to be the case that the Isaaq-Samaron, Ciise-Samaron, Isaaq-Ciise will have a lower split date, particularly the Samaron-Isaaq split.

[GeelJire]

That is a Surre-Isaaq split. As this is not far off the str split date, it is definitely going to be the case that the Isaaq-Samaron, Ciise-Samaron, Isaaq-Ciise will have a lower split date, particularly the Samaron-Isaaq split.

You're right, it's the Surre-Isaaq split, i'm also guessing the Hawiye-Isaaq divergence is around the same age too (1900ybp).

[eli]

You're right, it's the Surre-Isaaq split, i'm also guessing the Hawiye-Isaaq divergence is around the same age too (1900ybp).

Yes, probably Karanle from Galbeed, as their Str's closely match with the Surre.

Considering how the Ciise and Samaron bordered Zeila around the time of the Futuh Al Habash wars as the Afars extended all the way to Zeila in previous times, one can hypothesise that the three Northern clans probably descended from a common ancestor just before the arrival of Awbarkhadle (around 800-1000ybp). Moreover, geographically speaking, their lands are connected and they also speak in a relatively similar Somali dialect. IMO, they are probably the best representation of the ancestral pre-Islamic clan grouping that T Somalis belonged to as they are arguably closer to the point of entry of Y16897 into Somalia. Not set in stone as a South Cushite could test positive for Y16897 etc.

Nonetheless, it might be the case that T rich Somali clans all originate, ancestrally speaking, from around the same area as supported by the oral migration history of clans such as the Surre who lived further North in times gone by.

[GabrielZelalem]

Double post sorry

[GabrielZelalem]

I sent my saliva sample last week to FTDNA’s lab. I’m waiting for it to reach them in order to upgrade from Y-37 to Y-111 and eventually BigY.

One interesting thing about T-L208 in Somalis is that it seems to be exclusively restricted to the North of the peninsula. Given the few maps we could see if T’s repartition I’ve always thought it was fairly distributed among Somalis and just doing crazy numbers in Dirs and Isaaqs.
I really doubt the accuracy of this map now. 36124

[eli]

I sent my saliva sample last week to FTDNA’s lab. I’m waiting for it to reach them in order to upgrade from Y-37 to Y-111 and eventually BigY.

One interesting thing about T-L208 in Somalis is that it seems to be exclusively restricted to the North of the peninsula. Given the few maps we could see if T’s repartition I’ve always thought it was fairly distributed among Somalis and just doing crazy numbers in Dirs and Isaaqs.
I really doubt the accuracy of this map now. 36124


It is not exclusively restricted to North of the peninsula as there are many Somalis yet to be tested, Raxanweyn etc., Hawiyes also to a lesser extent.

Moreover, T-L208 is ancient in comparison to Y16897 and is found as far South as Tanzania. The reason why Y16897 is currently concentrated in Northern Somalia is due to a relatively young founder effect which for one reason or the other was successful at leaving a genetic legacy among Ciise, Isaaq and Gadabursi clans.

Dir is pre-Islamic and much older than the aforementioned post-Islam clans so I would avoid associating it with one haplogroup as macro Somali clan identities before Islam might not have been as blood based as one would assume. They very well might have been similar to confederacies found among the Oromos.

[drobbah]

Yes, probably Karanle from Galbeed, as their Str's closely match with the Surre.

Considering how the Ciise and Samaron bordered Zeila around the time of the Futuh Al Habash wars as the Afars extended all the way to Zeila in previous times, one can hypothesise that the three Northern clans probably descended from a common ancestor just before the arrival of Awbarkhadle (around 800-1000ybp). Moreover, geographically speaking, their lands are connected and they also speak in a relatively similar Somali dialect. IMO, they are probably the best representation of the ancestral pre-Islamic clan grouping that T Somalis belonged to as they are arguably closer to the point of entry of Y16897 into Somalia. Not set in stone as a South Cushite could test positive for Y16897 etc.

Nonetheless, it might be the case that T rich Somali clans all originate, ancestrally speaking, from around the same area as supported by the oral migration history of clans such as the Surre who lived further North in times gone by.

The lands of the Isaaq T's and the Samarone are separated by the Habar Awal but I get what you mean.Also the Isaaq clan has a oral tradition of originating in the East.The tombs of the T-L208 Isaaq ancestors (Garxajis,Tol Jeclo etc) are in Maydh with the tomb of the Habar Awal ancestor being in Jidali.Do the Southern Dir have a tradition of originating in Sanaag aswell?

[eli]

The lands of the Isaaq T's and the Samarone are separated by the Habar Awal but I get what you mean.Also the Isaaq clan has a oral tradition of originating in the East.The tombs of the T-L208 Isaaq ancestors (Garxajis,Tol Jeclo etc) are in Maydh with the tomb of the Habar Awal ancestor being in Jidali.Do the Southern Dir have a tradition of originating in Sanaag aswell?


The Surre are a Northern clan in origin, so are the Biimaal. Most Biimaal migrated South after the Futuh Wars in the 17th century.

Surre migrated in a more random fashion as most Surre subclans are Xeer Fiqis who spread the Deen. There is one small Surre sub.........subclan called Cabaas Muuse left in Sanaag today, they live with the Warsangeli of Badhan and in the nearby high lands.

As for where the clan founders are buried, I am non the wiser. Never thought to enquire about that.

Even though the Gurgura are not a Southern clan, they also originate in the Sanaag area. Their ancestor is presumably buried there in a town named after him.

I think it is pretty much settled that the prior to the formation of the Isaaq clan, the T ancestors of a section of Isaaq were in the same Dir clan grouping as their close ancestral cousins among the Samaron and Ciise. What would be interesting to discover is who the closest relatives of the E-V32 Isaaq are? Is it possible that the E-V32 found among Biimaal or other untested Dir subclans is closely related to them etc? It would be interesting to find out as we are only beginning to scratch under the surface and there is a dearth of representative Somali Y111 and Big Y samples.

[drobbah]

The Surre are a Northern clan in origin, so are the Biimaal. Most Biimaal migrated South after the Futuh Wars in the 17th century.

Surre migrated in a more random fashion as most Surre subclans are Xeer Fiqis who spread the Deen. There is one small Surre sub.........subclan called Cabaas Muuse left in Sanaag today, they live with the Warsangeli of Badhan and in the nearby high lands.

As for where the clan founders are buried, I am non the wiser. Never thought to enquire about that.

Even though the Gurgura are not a Southern clan, they also originate in the Sanaag area. Their ancestor is presumably buried there in a town named after him.

I think it is pretty much settled that the prior to the formation of the Isaaq clan, the T ancestors of a section of Isaaq were in the same Dir clan grouping as their close ancestral cousins among the Samaron and Ciise. What would be interesting to discover is who the closest relatives of the E-V32 Isaaq are? Is it possible that the E-V32 found among Biimaal or other untested Dir subclans is closely related to them etc? It would be interesting to find out as we are only beginning to scratch under the surface and there is a dearth of representative Somali Y111 and Big Y samples.

Had no clue that E-V32 was found among the Dir.I thought they are entirely T-L208 tbh.For the Isaaqs the only E-V32 found in non-Habar Awal clans was one Habar Jeclo sample on fsmilyteedna which had the closest str results to us Habar Awal compared to other Somalis and one Arap on 23andme.Hopefully that HJ fellow takes the BigY

[eli]

E-V32 has been found among the Biimaal. They will not be the only Dir subclan to have E-V32, especially if you add Isaaq to the mix considering that they would have been part of a historical Dir clan grouping before the adoption of a Hashemite lineage.

Many Somali macro subclans will not be uniform haplogroup wise. Especially those that were formed in pre-Islamic times. I wouldn't even be surprised if there is no uniformity among Surre T individuals as it is an old lineage. Unless they have been late adoptions, divisions lower down the subclan tree will in most cases probably reflect a genetic clan grouping nonetheless.

The Harti guy that is matched with the Isaaq on Ftdna should also shed light. Northern Somalia must have been the melting point of T, J and E-V32 Somalis when pre-Islamic clan identities were in the making.

[GeelJire]

Considering the formation date of T-Y45591 i think we can confidently say that it didn't form within Africa. Based on STRs I think the Kuwaiti Al Faraj will have a younger TMRCA with us than the Saudi and will most likely come under T-BY181210. Does anyone have any theories as to T-BY181210 ultimate origin and likely entry point into the Horn?.

[drobbah]

E-V32 has been found among the Biimaal. They will not be the only Dir subclan to have E-V32, especially if you add Isaaq to the mix considering that they would have been part of a historical Dir clan grouping before the adoption of a Hashemite lineage.

Many Somali macro subclans will not be uniform haplogroup wise. Especially those that were formed in pre-Islamic times. I wouldn't even be surprised if there is no uniformity among Surre T individuals as it is an old lineage. Unless they have been late adoptions, divisions lower down the subclan tree will in most cases probably reflect a genetic clan grouping nonetheless.

The Harti guy that is matched with the Isaaq on Ftdna should also shed light. Northern Somalia must have been the melting point of T, J and E-V32 Somalis when pre-Islamic clan identities were in the making.

I'm honestly of the belief that the T-L208 were Dirs but once they joined up and created a political alliance with other Northern clans (Habar Awal,Sanbuur,Arap and segments of Habar Jeclo) and became a clan in our own right.I think this is why the Isaaqs created this Hashemite myth in order to create some sort of founder myth kinda like the Roman's did with Romulus or the Arabs with Qahtan/Ismail.

Do you have a link to the Harti kit that matches us Isaaqs? Perhaps his subclan was an assimilated Habar Jeclo lineage

[GeelJire]

I'm quite skeptical of T Harti, the "Warsangeli" Tuure seem to be a recently assimilated Dir clan. I.M Lewis in his Galla of Northern Somaliland lists them among the Dir of Cerigabo district and adds that some of these clans identify with the larger Darod and Isaaq clans.


But in this region today only a few very small Dir remnants survive. Such are the Gambelle, Magadle, Madigan 1), Irdodub, Madobe,
Minsulk, Turre and Gurgure, of whom only a few individuals of each group seem to survive today in Erigavo District where they are attached to, and often completely identified with, the stronger local Isaq and
Darod clans with whom they live.

[eli]

Considering the formation date of T-Y45591 i think we can confidently say that it didn't form within Africa. Based on STRs I think the Kuwaiti Al Faraj will have a younger TMRCA with us than the Saudi and will most likely come under T-BY181210. Does anyone have any theories as to T-BY181210 ultimate origin and likely entry point into the Horn?.

It probably did not form in Africa, I agree. However, based on the analysis done by Esteban using the Somali FTDNA Y111 samples, the Al Faraj sample will most likely not fall under T-BY181210 as the Somalis form a cluster that are closer to each other that they are to the Al Faraj sample.

In a previous post, I made generalisations about Somali Y16897 samples. How closely/distantly related the Iacovacci Ciise, Hawiye AND K5 samples are to the Y111/YFull Somali samples cannot yet be confirmed as those samples are based on a limited number of STR's. For instance, before the Surre Y111 tests results became available, it was assumed that the Al Faraj sample was closer to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 modal haplotype than the Surre sample. I do think that the K5 and the one Hawiye sample in Iacovacci will be closer to the Surre whilst the Ciise sample will be close to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 samples but it is best to be cautious until they are tested further.

T-BY181210 is evidently the result of a founder effect not a mass migration of 'Arabs'. I don't know if he was a Semite or not but what I do know is that it was so long that there is no oral or written evidence of this. We can only go by DNA evidence and try to piece together whether his POSSIBLE migration was connected to events such as the adoption of Arabian short horned Zebu cattle and camels by Cushites when they reached Northern Somalia or was he a Middle Eastern merchant in Northern Somalia whose descendants went native?

[eli]

I'm honestly of the belief that the T-L208 were Dirs but once they joined up and created a political alliance with other Northern clans (Habar Awal,Sanbuur,Arap and segments of Habar Jeclo) and became a clan in our own right.I think this is why the Isaaqs created this Hashemite myth in order to create some sort of founder myth kinda like the Roman's did with Romulus or the Arabs with Qahtan/Ismail.

Do you have a link to the Harti kit that matches us Isaaqs? Perhaps his subclan was an assimilated Habar Jeclo lineage

The Hashemite myth is a more recent phenomenon as demonstrated by the fact that the Isaaq clan was associated with a Dir lineage in historical texts of Western explorers and in historical Somali poetry itself. Even today, you have Isaaq Sultans, the Habar Awal Sultan being one example, and politicians openly identifying with a Dir lineage.

It is more likely that the ancestors of T Dirs just simply ended up outnumbering other DNA lineage groups that they co-inhabited with in North-West Somalia.

The kit you are interested in is on FTDNA, ask the Somali FTDNA administrator about it as he has access to who the sample belongs to.

[drobbah]

The Hashemite myth is a more recent phenomenon as demonstrated by the fact that the Isaaq clan was associated with a Dir lineage in historical texts of Western explorers and in historical Somali poetry itself. Even today, you have Isaaq Sultans, the Habar Awal Sultan being one example, and politicians openly identifying with a Dir lineage.

It is more likely that the ancestors of T Dirs just simply ended up outnumbering other DNA lineage groups that they co-inhabited with in North-West Somalia.

The kit you are interested in is on FTDNA, ask the Somali FTDNA administrator about it as he has access to who the sample belongs to.

I don't think it was a recent phenomenon as the tombs and holy sites of the Isaaq clan from Sanaag (Maydh tombs) to Waaqoyi Galbeed (Aw Barkhadle) shows that we identified as an independent clan for quite some time, possibly for centuries.The current politics like the Isaaq Suldaans attending Dir functions in Ethiopia is nothing more than creating an anti-Darood political front in the Somali region of Ethiopia.

I don't see any Harti T on the Somali project or the main T-M70 project on ftdna but I'll keep an eye out for the kit

[eli]

I don't think it was a recent phenomenon as the tombs and holy sites of the Isaaq clan from Sanaag (Maydh tombs) to Waaqoyi Galbeed (Aw Barkhadle) shows that we identified as an independent clan for quite some time, possibly for centuries.The current politics like the Isaaq Suldaans attending Dir functions in Ethiopia is nothing more than creating an anti-Darood political front in the Somali region of Ethiopia.

I don't see any Harti T on the Somali project or the main T-M70 project on ftdna but I'll keep an eye out for the kit


There is nothing unique about clan tombs in the Sanaag region as several clans claim their ancestor is buried in the region. For instance, the Ciise clan ancestor is reputedly buried not far from the Isaaq clan founder, so are the Gadabursi and Darood clans etc. It is not an indicator of a separate historical clan identity.

As for Sheekh AwBarkhadle, he is considered a Saintly figure among all Somalis as he was influential in preaching Islam to Somalis as exemplified by how he simplified the Arabic alphabet for Somalis so as to enable them to read/memorise the Quran. The traditional way of learning the Quran is a legacy of his. The mythological story of Bucur Bacayr probably reflects the crucial role he played in Somalis abandoning their pagan beliefs and adopting Islam. His burial place was a pan-Somali pilgrimage site.

You are right, the Isaaq have been an independent clan for centuries but so have neighbouring clans such as Ciise, Harti, Ogaden etc. Neither Ciise or Gadabursi will self-identify as Dir first. There is an awareness among their elders of belonging to a historical Dir clan identity but that is about it. Umbrella clan identities such as Dir and Darood are not cohesive units, and have not been since around the Middle Ages. By the 16th century, most Somali subclans acted independently as exemplified by how they fielded separate armies during the Futuh Wars.

My reference to the Hashemite clan identity being a recent innovation is based on the fact that you would not have Isaaqs identifying or being identified as Dir by other Somalis as late as the early 20th century if a Hashemite identity had been formed in the Middle Ages or so when the Isaaq clan is rumoured to have formed. For instance, Northern Somalia, the two main divisions have traditionally been Dir and Darood, Isaaq have never been considered to be on the same ancestral level as these two clan divisions by their neighbouring Somalis. For instance, the Habar Yoonis poet, Ismaacil Cigaal Bulaale self-identifying with Dir in his riposte to the Dhulbahante Darood Cali Dhuux in the Guba chain of poems.

Adaa Dir iyo Daarood dhex dhigay, dab iyo baaruude
Dacar gelisey reerihii ahaa, ul iyo diirkeede
Mugga haatan dirir uumiyuhu, waa is dilayaaye

https://www.doollo.com/mainpage/boggasuugaanta/guba/guba.htm

Or closer to home in your case, an intra-Habar Awal poetic exchange from the early 20th century in which the two divisions of Dir and Darood are also referenced. The poet is Habar Awal Bah Gobo.

Daaraha Mareexaan haddii, deeqa lagu oodo
Oo Dir iyo Daarood kulmoo, dayrna lagu meersho
Doonyaha hadaad halabsataan, Dubay u dhoofaya
Dakadaha cadmeed iyo haddii, macala loo dayro

https://www.hoygasuugaanta.com/Cige-Qoob-Adhiile.htm

As for the Habar Awal Sultan attending a 'Dir' clan conference, would it not be controversial if a Hawiye Sultan attended a Darood clan conference claiming to be Darood etc? The point I am trying to make is that no traditional umbrella Somali clan is considered to be a branch of another clan hence why you will not see Hawiye or Dir or Darood etc. claiming to be a subclan of each other.

Anyway, this a is a genetic anthropology thread, not a social anthropology one lol so let us not deviate from the point of the thread.

Sorry, look up SNP results on the T FTDNA results page. There is no STR data for the Warsangeli sample and he has not tested for the Y16897 subclade, just T-L208. I am sure he will probably be Y16897 like other Somali T's.

[drobbah]

There is nothing unique about clan tombs in the Sanaag region as several clans claim their ancestor is buried in the region. For instance, the Ciise clan ancestor is reputedly buried not far from the Isaaq clan founder, so are the Gadabursi and Darood clans etc. It is not an indicator of a separate historical clan identity.

As for Sheekh AwBarkhadle, he is considered a Saintly figure among all Somalis as he was influential in preaching Islam to Somalis as exemplified by how he simplified the Arabic alphabet for Somalis so as to enable them to read/memorise the Quran. The traditional way of learning the Quran is a legacy of his. The mythological story of Bucur Bacayr probably reflects the crucial role he played in Somalis abandoning their pagan beliefs and adopting Islam. His burial place was a pan-Somali pilgrimage site.

You are right, the Isaaq have been an independent clan for centuries but so have neighbouring clans such as Ciise, Harti, Ogaden etc. Neither Ciise or Gadabursi will self-identify as Dir first. There is an awareness among their elders of belonging to a historical Dir clan identity but that is about it. Umbrella clan identities such as Dir and Darood are not cohesive units, and have not been since around the Middle Ages. By the 16th century, most Somali subclans acted independently as exemplified by how they fielded separate armies during the Futuh Wars.

My reference to the Hashemite clan identity being a recent innovation is based on the fact that you would not have Isaaqs identifying or being identified as Dir by other Somalis as late as the early 20th century if a Hashemite identity had been formed in the Middle Ages or so when the Isaaq clan is rumoured to have formed. For instance, Northern Somalia, the two main divisions have traditionally been Dir and Darood, Isaaq have never been considered to be on the same ancestral level as these two clan divisions by their neighbouring Somalis. For instance, the Habar Yoonis poet, Ismaacil Cigaal Bulaale self-identifying with Dir in his riposte to the Dhulbahante Darood Cali Dhuux in the Guba chain of poems.

Adaa Dir iyo Daarood dhex dhigay, dab iyo baaruude
Dacar gelisey reerihii ahaa, ul iyo diirkeede
Mugga haatan dirir uumiyuhu, waa is dilayaaye

https://www.doollo.com/mainpage/boggasuugaanta/guba/guba.htm

Or closer to home in your case, an intra-Habar Awal poetic exchange from the early 20th century in which the two divisions of Dir and Darood are also referenced. The poet is Habar Awal Bah Gobo.

Daaraha Mareexaan haddii, deeqa lagu oodo
Oo Dir iyo Daarood kulmoo, dayrna lagu meersho
Doonyaha hadaad halabsataan, Dubay u dhoofaya
Dakadaha cadmeed iyo haddii, macala loo dayro

https://www.hoygasuugaanta.com/Cige-Qoob-Adhiile.htm

As for the Habar Awal Sultan attending a 'Dir' clan conference, would it not be controversial if a Hawiye Sultan attended a Darood clan conference claiming to be Darood etc? The point I am trying to make is that no traditional umbrella Somali clan is considered to be a branch of another clan hence why you will not see Hawiye or Dir or Darood etc. claiming to be a subclan of each other.

Anyway, this a is a genetic anthropology thread, not a social anthropology one lol so let us not deviate from the point of the thread.

Sorry, look up SNP results on the T FTDNA results page. There is no STR data for the Warsangeli sample and he has not tested for the Y16897 subclade, just T-L208. I am sure he will probably be Y16897 like other Somali T's.

I found the Warsengali T-L208, I think he just might be an assimilated Dir from the region like the Magaadle clan for example or a possible HY or HJ lineage assimilated into the Warsengali which is very interesting .Hopefully he takes the Big Y!

[GeelJire]

It probably did not form in Africa, I agree. However, based on the analysis done by Esteban using the Somali FTDNA Y111 samples, the Al Faraj sample will most likely not fall under T-BY181210 as the Somalis form a cluster that are closer to each other that they are to the Al Faraj sample.

In a previous post, I made generalisations about Somali Y16897 samples. How closely/distantly related the Iacovacci Ciise, Hawiye AND K5 samples are to the Y111/YFull Somali samples cannot yet be confirmed as those samples are based on a limited number of STR's. For instance, before the Surre Y111 tests results became available, it was assumed that the Al Faraj sample was closer to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 modal haplotype than the Surre sample. I do think that the K5 and the one Hawiye sample in Iacovacci will be closer to the Surre whilst the Ciise sample will be close to the Isaaq/Samaron Y111 samples but it is best to be cautious until they are tested further.

T-BY181210 is evidently the result of a founder effect not a mass migration of 'Arabs'. I don't know if he was a Semite or not but what I do know is that it was so long that there is no oral or written evidence of this. We can only go by DNA evidence and try to piece together whether his POSSIBLE migration was connected to events such as the adoption of Arabian short horned Zebu cattle and camels by Cushites when they reached Northern Somalia or was he a Middle Eastern merchant in Northern Somalia whose descendants went native?


The Kuwaiti (Kit 300440) is most definitely closer to us than the Saudi sample (Kit M6077) and should have a TMRCA under 3000ybp, which is why i assumed that the Kuwaiti might fall under T-BY181210 since its formation date is 3000ybp, or do you believe the SNPs that define this clade are specific to Somalis only?.

[GeelJire]

Can't wait to have enough money to upgrade to BIG Y. Really curious to see if I'm closer to other Isaaqs or Dirs.
I'm sooooo curious to know which of the both (E-V32 and T-Y45591 Isaaqs) integrated into the broader tribe.

Gabriel, you're Bah Goba, right?. I was reading Richard Burton's book First foot steps and the Somalis he encountered relayed to him a common qabiil myth that Bah Goba are the ancestors of the Gudabiirsi, seeing as you might possibly belong to the only HG T Sacad Muuse sub clan i think there might be some truth to it, it can't be mere coincindence.

Screenshot from Book
36720

[drobbah]

Gabriel, you're Bah Goba, right?. I was reading Richard Burton's book First foot steps and the Somalis he encountered relayed to him a common qabiil myth that Bah Goba are the ancestors of the Gudabiirsi, seeing as you might possibly belong to the only HG T Sacad Muuse sub clan i think there might be some truth to it, it can't be mere coincindence.

Screenshot from Book
36720

How can you confirm that all Bah Gob are T-M70? We could have a case of false paternity or a specific sheegad lineage within Bah Gob.We need other Bah Gobs to test in order to come to such a conclusion.As of now E-V32 is the only haplogroup among Habar Awal that is found in every branch of the Habar Awal clan.There are results of different subclans of various Hussein Abokors from the reer Samatar to the Nuux Ismaciil and various Jibriil Abokors (reer Xareed,Reer Dalal,Baha Cumar and reer Yoonis ) also some of the Sacad Muusaha yaryar.

[GeelJire]

How can you confirm that all Bah Gob are T-M70? We could have a case of false paternity or a specific sheegad lineage within Bah Gob.We need other Bah Gobs to test in order to come to such a conclusion.As of now E-V32 is the only haplogroup among Habar Awal that is found in every branch of the Habar Awal clan.There are results of different subclans of various Hussein Abokors from the reer Samatar to the Nuux Ismaciil and various Jibriil Abokors (reer Xareed,Reer Dalal,Baha Cumar and reer Yoonis ) also some of the Sacad Muusaha yaryar.

I don't doubt that Habar Awal are majority E-V32. I agree, we cant say that Bahgoba are 100% T, but since they're a small clan i would expect homogeniety in regards to their Haplogroup.

A non paternity event is unlikely as Somalis don't usually engage in extra marital affairs and observe a 3 month cidda period after divorce so as to assure there's no pregnancy.

There's also Somali oral stories that connect Gadabiirsi to Garhajis, these stories claim that Samaroon was a son of Ismail (Garhajis). Do you think its coincidence that these Hap Ts clans were linked together before the advent of DNA?. I don't. Gudabiirsi could be an offshoot of Garhajis or Bah Goba.

Drake Brockman 1912
36722

Habar Awal elder recounts the Garhajis-Samaroon story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQrgXARGHeA

[drobbah]

I don't doubt that Habar Awal are majority E-V32. I agree, we cant say that Bahgoba are 100% T, but since they're a small clan i would expect homogeniety in regards to their Haplogroup.

A non paternity event is unlikely as Somalis don't usually engage in extra marital affairs and observe a 3 month cidda period after divorce so as to assure there's no pregnancy.

There's also Somali oral stories that connect Gadabiirsi to Garhajis, these stories claim that Samaroon was a son of Ismail (Garhajis). Do you think its coincidence that these Hap Ts clans were linked together before the advent of DNA?. I don't. Gudabiirsi could be an offshoot of Garhajis or Bah Goba.

Drake Brockman 1912
36722

Habar Awal elder recounts the Garhajis-Samaroon story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQrgXARGHeA

You'd be surprised that it does happen even in Somaliland.My old man knows a couple of guys back home who are technically "bastards" but assume their stepfather's clan.

[GeelJire]

Extra/pre-Marital sex does happen but it's not that prevalent due to our conservative religious and cultural beliefs, that's why Somalis have some of the lowest HIV cases in Africa. A non paternity event is possible but not likely imo.

[drobbah]

Extra/pre-Marital sex does happen but it's not that prevalent due to our conservative religious and cultural beliefs, that's why Somalis have some of the lowest HIV cases in Africa. A non paternity event is possible but not likely imo.

Regardless I still need to see a couple more Bah Gob's to confirm whether or not they are a clan that have been assimilated by Hussein Abokor or if this is a case of false paternity.

[GabrielZelalem]

Gabriel, you're Bah Goba, right?. I was reading Richard Burton's book First foot steps and the Somalis he encountered relayed to him a common qabiil myth that Bah Goba are the ancestors of the Gudabiirsi, seeing as you might possibly belong to the only HG T Sacad Muuse sub clan i think there might be some truth to it, it can't be mere coincindence.

Screenshot from Book
36720

Well, Y-37 results came in today and all my matches are Isaaq.

[GeelJire]

Well, Y-37 results came in today and all my matches are Isaaq.

Great! Could you share your STR results with us?

[GabrielZelalem]

here it is
36736

[GeelJire]

here it is
36736

Your STRs are pretty much almost identical with the other T-M70 members. The next step for you would be BIG Y so we can see how closely related you are to the Garhajis. It would also be interesting to see the TMRCA you have with the Ciise Muuse T-M70s, lets hope one takes the test.

[drobbah]

Your STRs are pretty much almost identical with the other T-M70 members. The next step for you would be BIG Y so we can see how closely related you are to the Garhajis. It would also be interesting to see the TMRCA you have with the Ciise Muuse T-M70s, lets hope one takes the test.

You really are trying real hard to turn Habar Awal into a fake clan.Where are these mythical Ciise Muuse T-M70s?

[GeelJire]

You really are trying real hard to turn Habar Awal into a fake clan.Where are these mythical Ciise Muuse T-M70s?

That's a weird accusation lol, where have i tried hard to turn HA into a "fake clan"?. Numerous people on 23andMe have reported on Ciise Muuse Ts, you can go investigate yourself. Most Somali clans have inconsistencies when it comes to Y-DNA, why does the fact that HA having multiple Haplogroups bother you?.

[drobbah]

That's a weird accusation lol, where have i tried hard to turn HA into a "fake clan"?. Numerous people on 23andMe have reported on Ciise Muuse Ts, you can go investigate yourself. Most Somali clans have inconsistencies when it comes to Y-DNA, why does the fact that HA having multiple Haplogroups bother you?.

Can I just go around claiming there are numerous Ciidigale E-V32s without proof? You clearly have some anti-Habar Awal undertones.

[GabrielZelalem]

Get your feelings aside walaal. The Isaaq clan’s very existence is based on a fake kinship to the Hashemites. I personally don’t care about our tribes being fake or legit. I didn’t get mad when you guys were discussing if I was the descendant of a bastardized HA lineage lol. (Not said that way, but could’ve easily been read like this)
Somalis and abtirsiyin consistency don’t get along apparently :P

[drobbah]

Get your feelings aside walaal. The Isaaq clan’s very existence is based on a fake kinship to the Hashemites. I personally don’t care about our tribes being fake or legit. I didn’t get mad when you guys were discussing if I was the descendant of a bastardized HA lineage lol. (Not said that way, but could’ve easily been read like this)
Somalis and abtirsiyin consistency don’t get along apparently :P

We have Habar Awals from every major branch that have consistent haplogroups and strs.This assertion he's making is to make it appear as if Habar Awal didn't exist.He's also doesn't even have enough knowledge about the region which is why he's making things up like Bah Gob being Samarone because they are T when you're the only sample.

[GeelJire]

Can I just go around claiming there are numerous Ciidigale E-V32s without proof? You clearly have some anti-Habar Awal undertones.

If it was just one person saying this then i would be skeptical but many people on 23andMe have told me this. Do you believe all these people are colluding in some anti-HA conspiracy lol. I don't understand how commenting on Ciise T-M70 can be construed as being anti-HA, mate you've got some issues. This is an anthropology and genetics forum, if you're going to be upset about people commenting on the genetics of your tribe then this isn't the place for you.

[GeelJire]

We have Habar Awals from every major branch that have consistent haplogroups and strs.This assertion he's making is to make it appear as if Habar Awal didn't exist.He's also doesn't even have enough knowledge about the region which is why he's making things up like Bah Gob being Samarone because they are T when you're the only sample.

I didn't even comment on Habr Awal existence or non existence, where are you getting this from?. And a minor correction, i didn't claim Bahgob are Samarone, i shared an excerpt from Burtons book that claimed Samaron are descended from Bahgobo (Habr Awal) and i believe there might be some truth to it.

[drobbah]

I didn't even comment on Habr Awal existence or non existence, where are you getting this from?. And a minor correction, i didn't claim Bahgob are Samarone, i shared an excerpt from Burtons book that claimed Samaron are descended from Bahgobo (Habr Awal) and i believe there might be some truth to it.

Buddy you do realize you are speaking to a Baha Cumar from Arabsiyo which we share with the Bah Gob minority? I know Bah Gob like my back hand considering my father side intermixed with them for generations and my family members never heard of this myth.

Let's say we take Jibril's results as representative of Bah Bah Gob.Why would they be related to Samarone and not the Tol Jeclo minority of Gabiley region? Like I said earlier you have no clue about my region

[Administrator]

This is a very stern warning to all of you to please refresh yourselves with the Terms of Service, which you all agreed to when you registered. This thread is being monitored. If further inflammatory, racist or pseudoscience type posts (which often lead to inflammatory posts) are made, infractions will follow.

[Monk307]

I didn't even comment on Habr Awal existence or non existence, where are you getting this from?. And a minor correction, i didn't claim Bahgob are Samarone, i shared an excerpt from Burtons book that claimed Samaron are descended from Bahgobo (Habr Awal) and i believe there might be some truth to it.

Are you seriously using Richard Burton as a reference? First of all, as someone who is Samaroon, we have no traditional accounts of any such relationship with the Bahgoba subclan. Chronologically speaking its IMPOSSIBLE. Bahgoba is a sub sub sub clan of Habr Awal. Bahgoba probably existed in the last 300-400 years max based on abtirsi whereas the Samaroon existed for at least 700-800 yers ago based on abtirsi. Its chronologically impossible and no Gadabursi ever recounts this 'link'. The only person to have ever mentioned this was Richard Burton who was extremely hostile to the Gadabursi and whose guide was a Bahgoba man who probably fed him some fake news. If anything, any Habr Awal T is more likely to come from the Gadabursi/ Dir and not the other way round because Gadabursi are overwhelmingly, if not almost exclusively T, whereas Habr Awal are majority E-v32.

Traditionally, we descend from Madaluug and the abtirsi is Cali (Gadabuursi) Madaluug who is the son of Dir. Madaluug had many offspring such as Cali Daud Madaluug (Gadabuursi), Isaaq Madaluug (Not Isaaq from Somaliland), Ahmed Madaluug, Jirde Madaluug and others. The only Madaluug subclan who still live in Waqooyi are the Gadabuursi. The rest live in Ethiopia, Shebeele, and Juba specifically Jamaame Region.

This is a video of Madaluug in Southern Somalia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPscHrwRrbw

Image of the leader of Madaluug clan in Juba:
36772

[GabrielZelalem]

I've been added to the chart of the FTDNA Somali Project. Kit number is B448380.

[GabrielZelalem]

All my 111 str’s results are now on the project’s page, closely matches other Somalis, especially Habar Yoonis.
All my matches disappear on FTDNA when I chose 111 Marker.

[GabrielZelalem]

I’ve been successfully added to the Isaaq subclade on YFull :). According to FTDNA I belong to T-BY56427.

[GeelJire]

I’ve been successfully added to the Isaaq subclade on YFull :). According to FTDNA I belong to T-BY56427.

Are you the Djiboutian (id:YF74859) on yfull?. I assumed that was Cobra from Sspot who also took the BIG-Y. I think Northern Dirs like Gadabursi and Ciise will fall under T-FGC92488 and it won't be exclusive to Isaaqs.

[GabrielZelalem]

Yep that’s my kit number. Given the very recent TMRCA I am quite confident only Isaaq will fall under it.

[GeelJire]

Yep that’s my kit number. Given the very recent TMRCA I am quite confident only Isaaq will fall under it.

It maybe exclusive to Isaaqs but the TMRCA might be revised when your sample is fully anaylzed. Remember the Mudug Sample and Togdheer initially had a TMRCA at 1650ybp but when the Waqooyi Galbeed uploaded it went up to 1900ypb. Could happen in this case.

[Mnemonics]

Seems like another Saudi with T-Y45591* has been added to Yfull, they are apparently from Asir which shares a border with Yemen.

[drobbah]

This seems to be the nail in the coffin for those of us that perhaps thought the Dir clade was of Cushitic origin.Considering the date when the Dir clade was formed, is it plausible that these migrants not only brought camel domestication to the pre-proto Somalis but also an autosomal impact on the genepool of the locals?

I recall reading that there are Ancient Yemenite loanwords relating to camel herding in the Rendille language and the fact that the Rendille in G25 seem to also have similar levels of Yemenite ancestry compared to many Somali individuals despite being more SSA shifted.

This was in a paper about Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali:

NS qáalin m. and qaalín f. (pl. qaalm-ó) ‘young camel or calf when
it approaches sexual maturity’ (nêef gêel áh ama ló’ oo dá’ yár
Yaasiin Cismaan Keenadiid 1976: 333b), with ġ > q and -m > -n in
syllable coda, that are regular developments. From the Semitic root
ĠLM, attested in Sabaic ġlm ‘boy, child’, or directly from Ar. ġālim
(participle of ġalima) or ġalim both meaning ‘excited by lust’, from
the same root Ar. has ġillīm ‘(he-camel) excited by lust’ and ġulām
‘a young man, youth’. The present author already pointed out (Banti
2000) that it also occurs in Rendille kháalim m. ‘male camel calf’
and khaalím f. ‘female camel calf’ and is thus unlikely to be a recent
loanword. The ASA hypothesis assigns qaalin to the oldest core of
camel-related terms that entered the eastern Horn, together with
*gaala ‘camel’ > NS gêel; in this case, the extension to bovine
calves is a secondary development.

[Mnemonics]

If I remember correctly East African dromedaries are closely related to South Arabian dromedaries with East Africa camels having the most diverse mtdna of all the tested modern breeds. If we assume that camels arrived in Eastern Africa via the Red Sea relatively soon after they were domesticated (which would explain the mtdna diversity) then I could see T-Y16897 coming along with it.

I would be really interested to see if the various Tanzanian T-M184 rich populations have are also T-Y45591, or if they completely different branches like the Lemba.

[GabrielZelalem]

If I remember correctly East African dromedaries are closely related to South Arabian dromedaries with East Africa camels having the most diverse mtdna of all the tested modern breeds. If we assume that camels arrived in Eastern Africa via the Red Sea relatively soon after they were domesticated (which would explain the mtdna diversity) then I could see T-Y16897 coming along with it.

I would be really interested to see if the various Tanzanian T-M184 rich populations have are also T-Y45591, or if they completely different branches like the Lemba.

Apparently the Tanzanian sample belongs to a whole different T-L209 subclade. Saw that on the Haplogroup T facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/T.M184/permalink/10159216210828868/) where the owner has quite a good amount of knowledge about everything related to T-M70.

They assume he'd belong to T-Y16244 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-Y16244/?fbclid=IwAR2nGv5nEAuZsdTn2BlwSse8RxYh5YXPDVilCYwX JmNeVf-b0324_RsNvn4)

[drobbah]

If I remember correctly East African dromedaries are closely related to South Arabian dromedaries with East Africa camels having the most diverse mtdna of all the tested modern breeds. If we assume that camels arrived in Eastern Africa via the Red Sea relatively soon after they were domesticated (which would explain the mtdna diversity) then I could see T-Y16897 coming along with it.

I would be really interested to see if the various Tanzanian T-M184 rich populations have are also T-Y45591, or if they completely different branches like the Lemba.
The Sanaag J1 sample on yfull is also of similar age to the Dir T clade although a bit older.It is also related to Southern Yemenis,Hadhramawt and Omani samples with Oman being the region where dromedary camels were first domesticated.Perhaps Somali J1 which was less successful than T entered the Horn together

[Mnemonics]

Seems like the new Saudi sample is from Rijal Almaa, which was fairly common crossing point for pilgrims for a very long time.

[GeelJire]

Not sure if the analysis is done for the Almaa, but it's looking like he is no more closer to his fellow Saudi than to the Somalis. I think this points to T-Y45591 diversity in the Arabian peninsula, which only strengthens to red sea/Gulf migration theory.

[Mnemonics]

Not sure if the analysis is done for the Almaa, but it's looking like he is no more closer to his fellow Saudi than to the Somalis. I think this points to T-Y45591 diversity in the Arabian peninsula, which only strengthens to red sea/Gulf migration theory.

It seems like the Asir sample is closer to Somalis than the one from Mecca. The live Yfull tree has them as forming a clade ( T-BY182320) with the Dir/Isaaq samples.

[eli]

The T-Y45591 tree has been updated. TMRCA has decreased.

Nonetheless, it will change as more samples will be uploaded. I believe there are three more Somali Dante samples being processed; two Samaron and one Surre.

[Mnemonics]

1850 ybp... that is a surprisingly young TMRCA. If that Kuwaiti is even closer that might move the TMRCA even closer.

I will be really surprised if it turns out that it post-dates Islam.

[eli]

1850 ybp... that is a surprisingly young TMRCA. If that Kuwaiti is even closer that might move the TMRCA even closer.

I will be really surprised if it turns out that it post-dates Islam.

Going by how the Somali E-V32 tree TMRCA decreased as more Somalis uploaded to Yfull, it can be hypothesised that a similar TMRCA adjustment could also possibly occur to the T-Y45591 tree. If the Somali subclade post-dates Islam, unlikely going by current STR data, the mystery of this lineage's presence in the Somali ethnic group increases as there is no solid socio-historical evidence to support such an ancestral origin theory.

[drobbah]

Going by how the Somali E-V32 tree TMRCA decreased as more Somalis uploaded to Yfull, it can be hypothesised that a similar TMRCA adjustment could also possibly occur to the T-Y45591 tree. If the Somali subclade post-dates Islam, unlikely going by current STR data, the mystery of this lineage's presence in the Somali ethnic group increases as there is no solid socio-historical evidence to support such an ancestral origin theory.
When did this lineage enter the Horn and where did it come from?

[eli]

When did this lineage enter the Horn and where did it come from?

I know as much as you do!

As we come from an oral society, we ain't got much to work with.

[MujihaD]

There is another Almaa (different sub-tribe) person on fdtna haplogroub T project



42021

[drobbah]

Yemeni from Hadhramawt who's T-Y16897+

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExqG2BrXMAAZur_?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExqIaG_WYAYPA5G?format=jpg&name=large

[GabrielZelalem]

Yemeni from Hadhramawt who's T-Y16897+

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExqG2BrXMAAZur_?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExqIaG_WYAYPA5G?format=jpg&name=large

Probably belongs to his branch : https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y181724/

A gadabuursi sample has appeared under what we thought was the Isaaq T branch. I'm quite surprised to be honest. Don't know if the tree will change in the upcoming days tho

[farjanomar]

Congrats to Beesha T. Now Yfull has just updated in the live section. Extra branches. Give us some insight into the new branches.

[eli]

Congrats to Beesha T. Now Yfull has just updated in the live section. Extra branches. Give us some insight into the new branches.

If this is a final update, then we have a new subclade for the Surre Dir samples based on the high quality SNP's that are unique to them. The SNP difference between the Surre and the Isaaq-Samaron subclade has also increased, this could have TMRCA ramifications. Moreover, the TMRCA split between the Al Almaa sample and the Somali subclade could also change if things stay the same on the Live YFull tree as there are more SNPs which separate us from him.

What is more puzzling is that, as things stand, the Samaron-Isaaq subclade has a split with the Habar Jeclo and Habar Yonis Togdher samples forming their own subclade. My assumption is that they share an SNP or two which are absent in the other three samples. The current update does not specify how many SNP's differentiate the above so it is best to wait until they have finished their analysis.

[Sol01]

So T-Y45591 arrived into the horn from South Arabia?
At what point is this just because Gulf Arabs are overrepresented on Yfull/DNA testing platforms rather than a South Arabian origin?

[NetNomad]

So T-Y45591 arrived into the horn from South Arabia?
At what point is this just because Gulf Arabs are overrepresented on Yfull/DNA testing platforms rather than a South Arabian origin?

Yemenis mainly descend from Saudis (Semites came from the North). So whatever Saudis have, Yemenis will also have.

[drobbah]

Yemenis mainly descend from Saudis (Semites came from the North). So whatever Saudis have, Yemenis will also have.
Sol01 still has a point.Saudis are over represented; I think it's too early to say for sure that this T lineage is from Arabia.We need T-M70 samples from the southern parts of the Horn and SE Africa especially from groups like the Rendille.

Look at E-M329, you would think from first glance on yfull that this was a Saudi lineage.There is even a Saudi that is under the same exact subclade as Mota.One of those Christian Nubian samples that was T-M70+ belonged to a clade that on yfull seemed entirely Saudi.

[Awale]

Sol01 still has a point.Saudis are over represented; I think it's too early to say for sure that this T lineage is from Arabia.We need T-M70 samples from the southern parts of the Horn and SE Africa especially from groups like the Rendille.

Look at E-M329, you would think from first glance on yfull that this was a Saudi lineage.There is even a Saudi that is under the same exact subclade as Mota.One of those Christian Nubian samples that was T-M70+ belonged to a clade that on yfull seemed entirely Saudi.

Is it just how over-tested they are or is Saudi pretty damn cosmopolitan?! The sheer number of Haplogroups I see popping up there is just astounding, walaal. I imagine a lot of it is from Muslim migrants showing up because of Makkah and Medinah, though. Crazy stuff. When Somalis become equally tested someday (inshallah) I imagine we will see more obscure HGs pop up as well (we already are in very small numbers) but nothing to this extreme. But you have a point. If I didn't know any better I would think A-M13 in the Horn is possibly from Saudi based on this alone:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y23655/

[drobbah]

Is it just how over-tested they are or is Saudi pretty damn cosmopolitan?! The sheer number of Haplogroups I see popping up there is just astounding, walaal. I imagine a lot of it is from Muslim migrants showing up because of Makkah and Medinah, though. Crazy stuff. When Somalis become equally tested someday (inshallah) I imagine we will see more obscure HGs pop up as well (we already are in very small numbers) but nothing to this extreme. But you have a point. If I didn't know any better I would think A-M13 in the Horn is possibly from Saudi based on this alone:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y23655/
Perhaps if those samples are from the Hijaz & Tehama then the Hajj (and the routes taken to arrive in the Hijaz) can be a good explanation but the Islamic slave trade played an important part as well in the diversity of the modern Arabian lineages.

There's a Saudi sample (Bariq tribe) that clusters with me and other Sacad Muuse from the Asir region of Saudi Arabia while the sample upstream of the Somali T-M70 is also from the same region but from a different clan.It is well-known that the Tihama region has tons of African influence and has had migrants (pilgrims,merchants,scholars etc) and slaves sent to this region.Arab Faqih from the Futuh Al Habasha himself was from Jizan another region of the Tihama.We also have two bedouin tribes with some Somali E-V32, such as the samples from the Northern parts of the Hijaz near the Levant & Sinai (Badawi) and the Al-Hubaish from Najd.

This is why I suggest caution when it comes to the origin of this lineage.Just like E-V32, there's probably a clear divide between the lineages found in the Northern Horners/Sudanese and Southern Horners (Somalis included) & SE Africans.Some people here suggested because Eritreans,Sudanese & Central/Northern Ethiopians don't share a common T-M70 subclade as these Somalis then that suggests that their lineage is Arabian despite any Southern Horner T-M70 being uploaded on yfull yet.

[eli]

@Drobbah @Awale

Yes, it would be premature to state that it is indeed of Arabian origin even though current evidence points towards such a theory when the 3000ybp Arabian sample is taken into account. Nonetheless, there is no direct correlation between the African E-V32, E-M329, A-M13 Arab results and T-Y16897 as the latter is clearly of Eurasian origin. Such a comparative analysis does not really work with the Somali T lineage.

Moreover, Rendille would not be the best candidate to determine whether it is of distant Middle Eastern origin as results could be biased towards the Somali subclade as Gunther Schlee discovered that Rendille oral History states some of them share ancestry with Somalis. They aren't a genetically and culturally isolated ethnic group.

Hopefully, when more African (both North and South) T samples are uploaded, we will have a clearer picture. Nonetheless, this in itself would not suffice. An ancient sample would be more appropriate as there is a long History of migration between Arabia and North-East Africa/Egypt making it sometimes difficult to determine which T, and even J, subclade lineages have a long History in North-Eastern Africa. For instance, one J or T subclade on YFull can contain multiple individuals from both sides of the Red Sea.

[drobbah]

@Drobbah @Awale

Yes, it would be premature to state that it is indeed of Arabian origin even though current evidence points towards such a theory when the 3000ybp Arabian sample is taken into account. Nonetheless, there is no direct correlation between the African E-V32, E-M329, A-M13 Arab results and T-Y16897 as the latter is clearly of Eurasian origin. Such a comparative analysis does not really work with the Somali T lineage.
There is clearly a correlation as population movement from Africa (especially the Horn,Sudan & East Africa) to the Tihama region is a historical fact and it's an open possibility that these Tihama/Hijaz T-Y45591 are in fact descendants of Horner men. Yes T is clearly of Eurasian origin but it is in no way recent in Africa or to Afro-Asiatic communities of Africa as you know compared to West Eurasian lineages like J-P56/P58, R1a/R1b etc.Neither can lineages like P56/P58,L-M70,R1 be found in SE African Cushites or heavily Cushitic admixed populations unlike T-M70.



Moreover, Rendille would not be the best candidate to determine whether it is of distant Middle Eastern origin as results could be biased towards the Somali subclade as Gunther Schlee discovered that Rendille oral History states some of them share ancestry with Somalis.

The Rendille are a close linguistic cousins of ours (closer to us than Oromo & Afars) and seem to be the most similar to us genetically besides the minor Borana & Samburu admixture they attained in the last few centures, they are also camel herders which differentiates them from their Borana & Samburu neighbours.I predict the Rendille will belong to T-Y45591 just as I predict a lot of their E-V32 will be E-Y17859 (Somali dominant) and minor Borana E-Y161124.It is important for us to know what subclades these Rendille belong too just like it is important for other T-M70 men not from the Dir or Isaaq clans in Somaliweyn to get tested so we can have a better picture of how these T-M70+ men spread in the Eastern & Southern parts of the Horn.As we know that the proto-Lowland Eastern Cushitic language was spoken around 4,000 years ago, and the proto-Somali language around 2,000 years ago according to what Awale heard from Ehret.

@Awale when do you think the Rendille and the proto-Maxay-Maay diverged from each other?

Lowland East Cushitic tree
https://i.imgur.com/uaZCrWN.png




Hopefully, when more African (both North and South) T samples are uploaded, we will have a clearer picture. Nonetheless, this in itself would not suffice. An ancient sample would be more appropriate as there is a long History of migration between Arabia and North-East Africa/Egypt making it sometimes difficult to determine which T, and even J, subclade lineages have a long History in North-Eastern Africa. For instance, one J or T subclade on YFull can contain multiple individuals from both sides of the Red Sea.
100% agree walaal.I still would like to see the T-M70 variants found in groups like the Borana,Iraqw,Datooga,Akie (Nilotes),Gorowa (South Cushites),Bench (Omotics) ,Kontas (Omotics),Konsos (S Lowland East Cushitic) and many others.T-M70 is plentiful in the Southern Horn and SE Africa.

[eli]

There is clearly a correlation as population movement from Africa (especially the Horn,Sudan & East Africa) to the Tihama region is a historical fact and it's an open possibility that these Tihama/Hijaz T-Y45591 are in fact descendants of Horner men. Yes T is clearly of Eurasian origin but it is in no way recent in Africa or to Afro-Asiatic communities of Africa as you know compared to West Eurasian lineages like J-P56/P58, R1a/R1b etc..


T-M70 is how old?

What are the ancient T-M70 samples subclades which have so far been discovered in Africa?

What are the subclades of the ancient T-M70 subclades in Eurasia, and where have they been found?

When you address the above questions, you will understand the meaning behind my statement. Y16897 is almost half the age of T-M70 and it currently has not been identified in any ancient African y-dna samples. You cannot currently hypothesise for Y16897 Somalis or Arabs based on the ancient T-M70 samples that have so far been found in Africa. Moreover, if you look at the current age of the Y16897 subclade on YFull, it is noticeable that its founding period was most probably in Eurasia, and its distribution among Semitic speaking Jews and Arabs demonstrates how it has an older presence in Arabia than Africa. Hence, it is more likely that Tihama/Hijaz/Somali T-Y45591 is of Arabian origin than the other way round. Nonetheless, an older African sample from an isolated population such as the South Cushites etc. which has not been exposed to Historical migration from Arabia would certainly support your hypothesis.

[drobbah]

As I said earlier there's not a single South Cushitic (or Nilo-Cushitic)or Southern Horner T-M70 sample on yfull and Saudis are also way overrepresented on Yfull.If you think that it's likely that T-Y45591 is some Hijazi/Tihami lineage then that's your prerogative but I personally think that you and those that think like you are jumping the gun on this.

So,untill Ancient DNA or more relevant Africans (who are under tested) start getting tested.I'm afraid we will never get an answer to this question.Taking yfull at face value can be deceiving

[eli]

As I said earlier there's not a single South Cushitic (or Nilo-Cushitic)or Southern Horner T-M70 sample on yfull and Saudis are also way overrepresented on Yfull.If you think that it's likely that T-Y45591 is some Hijazi/Tihami lineage then that's your prerogative but I personally think that you and those that think like you are jumping the gun on this.

So,untill Ancient DNA or more relevant Africans (who are under tested) start getting tested.I'm afraid we will never get an answer to this question.Taking yfull at face value can be deceiving

I never passed off my statement as fact, nonetheless, I argued that the evidence we have in front of us, as things stand, points towards an Arabian origin for my lineage. In my previous statements, I have been clear that an ancient sample, or, a South Cushitic etc. sample older than the Hijaz individual would change my narrative.

[drobbah]

We also don't have any Neolithic samples from Egypt or Northern Sudan.The Medieval Nubian T-M70 sample was a great example of showing that there's a lot of diversity within Africa that isn't being shown due to lack of testing, someone who takes yfull at face value would of assumed that specific subclade was Saudi.

Hopefully soon we will have real concrete evidence to prove either the predecessor of this lineage entered via the Sinai during the Neolithic (most likely scenario) or entered quite recently into the Eastern Horn from Arabia without any linguistic impact on Somalis or archeological evidence (very unlikely imo).

[vettor]

T-M70 is how old?

What are the ancient T-M70 samples subclades which have so far been discovered in Africa?

What are the subclades of the ancient T-M70 subclades in Eurasia, and where have they been found?

When you address the above questions, you will understand the meaning behind my statement. Y16897 is almost half the age of T-M70 and it currently has not been identified in any ancient African y-dna samples. You cannot currently hypothesise for Y16897 Somalis or Arabs based on the ancient T-M70 samples that have so far been found in Africa. Moreover, if you look at the current age of the Y16897 subclade on YFull, it is noticeable that its founding period was most probably in Eurasia, and its distribution among Semitic speaking Jews and Arabs demonstrates how it has an older presence in Arabia than Africa. Hence, it is more likely that Tihama/Hijaz/Somali T-Y45591 is of Arabian origin than the other way round. Nonetheless, an older African sample from an isolated population such as the South Cushites etc. which has not been exposed to Historical migration from Arabia would certainly support your hypothesis.

T is about 42000yo after it split off from Haplogroup LT

T ydna has 4 branches which formed about 13500years ago ...they are T1a1, T1a2, T1a3 and T2-PH110


only ancient T sample in Africa is in Morocco ( on the Atlantic sea ) ............paper states it came from Northern Spain


Kehf-el-Baroud ( 4950 yBP - Late Neolithic )


KEB.6 ( 4940 ± 30 yBP ) other: 5565 ± 65 yBP
Y-DNA: T1a1a-L162 (x T1a1a2b-BY154181, T1a1a1a1-Y4119, T1a1a1a2a1a-BY28257, T1a1a1a2b1a-Y12642, T1a1a1b1a-Y18956)
mtDNA: K1a4a1
Genome-Wide Coverage: 0.14X
Wisc reads: 169,242,780
Other IDs: Library AEH161 / Museum KEB93.94 d2
Sample: Teeth
Autosomal Notes: Iberian origin.
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM (FASTQ=>mapped-BAM)


IIRC it is stated as snp CTS2214 ...............same as the black sea samples found in Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic ) ...........below is one of the nine samples

I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

all have the same snp and all have blue eyes ......................imo, with same snp, they are either brothers or cousins as they all have different mtdna signature

[Mirix]

It's important to contextualize population history when interpreting Genetic data . A lot of Borana or Oromo aren't really that close to Somalis in actuality, they have just assimilated a bunch of Somali people. Not all though but definitely the ones in the south and southeast they call Gabra or jabarti who are part of some Borana.

A lot of people mistankingly infer a close genetic relationship with Oromo without controlling for the fact that many aren't actually Oromo in origin. Oromo's ethnically and linguistically are a lot more closer to Konso , Geleb, Gato,Gidole, Gawata , Warazi and Tsamai. All these ethnic groups are found in North-West Borana.

Also Rendille aren't just linguistic cousins they are more or less a Somali group that broke off persumeably during the advent of Islam. Their language could be considered a dialect but they are more culturally differentiated & diverged from all other Somalis as a result of their seperation and contact with other communities thus its a seperate language. Af Maxa and Af Maay dialects are closer to eachother, than Rendille language are to them as a result.

Some Rendille clans claim origin from Garre , they even use Garre Camel-brands. Whereas certain Rendille sections such as Dodakin have a language which is essentially the Tunni dialect of Somali. Rendille a pretty much a composite group, some sections for example the Arial are clearly of samburu Nilo-Saharan Origin.

Somalis are actually more genetically distant from all other Ethiopian populations then they are to eachother. The genome-wide distance between the Portuguese and Slavs is smaller than between Boranas and Somalis. The genetic landscape of Ethiopia (https://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~gav/work_in_progress/ethiopia/v5/index.html)

This is also why the Southern Ethiopia origin theory for Somalis is implausible. But the fact that T shows up in Afro Asiatic Cushitic speaking groups in the South lends more credence thats it's most likely introduced in pre-historic times perhaps from North Africa as the oldest sample dated from there at 3,000 BCE

[vettor]

It's important to contextualize population history when interpreting Genetic data . A lot of Borana or Oromo aren't really that close to Somalis in actuality, they have just assimilated a bunch of Somali people. Not all though but definitely the ones in the south and southeast they call Gabra or jabarti who are part of some Borana.

A lot of people mistankingly infer a close genetic relationship with Oromo without controlling for the fact that many aren't actually Oromo in origin. Oromo's ethnically and linguistically are a lot more closer to Konso , Geleb, Gato,Gidole, Gawata , Warazi and Tsamai. All these ethnic groups are found in North-West Borana.

Also Rendille aren't just linguistic cousins they are more or less a Somali group that broke off persumeably during the advent of Islam. Their language could be considered a dialect but they are more culturally differentiated & diverged from all other Somalis as a result of their seperation and contact with other communities thus its a seperate language. Af Maxa and Af Maay dialects are closer to eachother, than Rendille language are to them as a result.

Some Rendille clans claim origin from Garre , they even use Garre Camel-brands. Whereas certain Rendille sections such as Dodakin have a language which is essentially the Tunni dialect of Somali. Rendille a pretty much a composite group, some sections for example the Arial are clearly of samburu Nilo-Saharan Origin.

Somalis are actually more genetically distant from all other Ethiopian populations then they are to eachother. The genome-wide distance between the Portuguese and Slavs is smaller than between Boranas and Somalis. The genetic landscape of Ethiopia (https://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~gav/work_in_progress/ethiopia/v5/index.html)

This is also why the Southern Ethiopia origin theory for Somalis is implausible. But the fact that T shows up in Afro Asiatic Cushitic speaking groups in the South lends more credence thats it's most likely introduced in pre-historic times perhaps from North Africa as the oldest sample dated from there at 3,000 BCE

The oldest T ydna I saw in Yemen/somali lands was the history of the Lemba people.......they came from southern Syria and it was a migration of only men.............after arriving in yemen/somali, they all travelled to tanzania and then finally ended up in Northern South Africa.......they married local women
The Lemba, wa-Remba, or Mwenye[1] are a Bantu ethnic group which is native to Zimbabwe and South Africa,

One story is that they left the Levant circa 500BC

50% are T
More recently, Mendez et al. (2011) observed that a moderately high frequency of the studied Lemba samples carried Y-DNA Haplogroup T, which is also considered to be of Near Eastern origin.

you can do your own research


The Persian Gulf Area has mainly T1a3 group with some T1a1 as well ..............the T1a3 came south via southern Kazakhstan early BC times as well

[Mirix]

Tanzania & Mozambique isn't Yemeni or Somali land btw. And those are Bantu/Swahili groups.

[Mirix]

What i included about T1 in a different thread some months ago: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21788-Is-there-any-strong-argument-against-a-South-Arabian-origin-of-Ethio-Semitic&p=706104#post706104

Origins & History

The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

The fact that it may have spread along the red sea during the neolithic, probably explains it's prevelance in Dir clans as they are generally the most Northernly clan that live along the red sea. It is most likely introduced via pastoralists from Southern Egypt/North Africa.

[vettor]

What i included about T1 in a different thread some months ago: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21788-Is-there-any-strong-argument-against-a-South-Arabian-origin-of-Ethio-Semitic&p=706104#post706104

Origins & History

The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

The fact that it may have spread along the red sea during the neolithic, probably explains it's prevelance in Dir clans as they are generally the most Northernly clan that live along the red sea. It is most likely introduced via pastoralists from Southern Egypt/North Africa.

I believe T began in central-asia between the Caspian sea and Aral sea ( in that area ) as all 4 branches of T are found there, as well as some being very old samples .............since their "cousins" haplogroup R1 , L, N and O also appear in the same area it makes the only logical place IMO

[MujihaD]

The new update is up. It seems everything in place, Dir ( Isaaq - Surra) split is 1650 years, isaaq is 900 years and habar Yunis is 550 years

[drobbah]

You mean Isaaq Ts are 900 years old unless you excavate the tomb of Shiekh Isaxaaq no can claim who were the true Isaaq.Plus the Samarone,Bah Gob & Ciidigale don’t fall under the younger clade that the Habar Jeclo & Habar Yoonis sample fall under.Which means a CG is equally distant from a Samarone as he is from Habar Yoonis his supposed Garxajis sibling.

[MujihaD]

You mean Isaaq Ts are 900 years old unless you excavate the tomb of Shiekh Isaxaaq no can claim who were the true Isaaq.Plus the Samarone,Bah Gob & Ciidigale don’t fall under the younger clade that the Habar Jeclo & Habar Yoonis sample fall under.Which means a CG is equally distant from a Samarone as he is from Habar Yoonis his supposed Garxajis sibling.

Yes of Course Isaaq T haplogroup . my mistake, I thought both togdheer sample were both Habar Yunis

[drobbah]

Yes of Course Isaaq T haplogroup . my mistake, I thought both togdheer sample were both Habar Yunis
The tmrca is similar to the tmrca of Sacad-Cisse Muuse, so this Northern T lineage is quite young.I wonder what made these Isaaqs Ts ancestors to forget their Dir ancestry and their close relation with the Samarone.

[Sol01]

You mean Isaaq Ts are 900 years old unless you excavate the tomb of Shiekh Isaxaaq no can claim who were the true Isaaq.Plus the Samarone,Bah Gob & Ciidigale don’t fall under the younger clade that the Habar Jeclo & Habar Yoonis sample fall under.Which means a CG is equally distant from a Samarone as he is from Habar Yoonis his supposed Garxajis sibling.

Wait, are you saying HY Ts are more related to HJ Ts than CGs?

[drobbah]

Wait, are you saying HY Ts are more related to HJ Ts than CGs?
Thought this was the E-V32 thread for some reason… but yes both Toghdheer samples one HJ & HY share a recent tmrca on yfull to the exclusion of the Ciidigale

[Sol01]

Thought this was the E-V32 thread for some reason… but yes both Toghdheer samples one HJ & HY share a recent tmrca on yfull to the exclusion of the Ciidigale

Interesting. You wouldn't happen to know what subclan the HJ individual belongs to would you?

[kahin]

Its is interesting to know that somali T is of such recent origin as indicated by the available information and as a result I think its convenient at the moment to believe that its due to recent migration from somewhere in the middle east to the horn of africa through the red sea.

[kahin]

You mean Isaaq Ts are 900 years old unless you excavate the tomb of Shiekh Isaxaaq no can claim who were the true Isaaq.Plus the Samarone,Bah Gob & Ciidigale don’t fall under the younger clade that the Habar Jeclo & Habar Yoonis sample fall under.Which means a CG is equally distant from a Samarone as he is from Habar Yoonis his supposed Garxajis sibling.

Bro have you seen Big y tests other than those posted on FTDNA which is of only 4 results among all isaaqs, cuz I think that we cant draw conclusion about the genealogical arrangements of such major clans based on only the results of four random guys. Btw all the abtirsi seems screwed up all the way from any thing above few generations.

[Sol01]

Its is interesting to know that somali T is of such recent origin as indicated by the available information and as a result I think its convenient at the moment to believe that its due to recent migration from somewhere in the middle east to the horn of africa through the red sea.

I still don't think any conclusions can be made until other T-haplogroup Horners have been tested, especially Somali-adjacent groups like Rendille, Gabra, and South Cushitic speakers. Arabs are over-represented on DNA testing websites.

[warsame]

if you don't have same haplogroup, how do you have same clan.
one of E-32 or T-L208 should be reer sh. Isxaaq other one is fake. but i don't know which is real.

[drobbah]

if you don't have same haplogroup, how do you have same clan.
one of E-32 or T-L208 should be reer sh. Isxaaq other one is fake. but i don't know which is real.
No such thing of a 'real' Isaaq lineage.Anyone that belongs to the Isaaq clan and it's various subclans is Isaaq whether they carry E-V32,E-V22, T-M70, E-M78* or E-V16


Bro have you seen Big y tests other than those posted on FTDNA which is of only 4 results among all isaaqs, cuz I think that we cant draw conclusion about the genealogical arrangements of such major clans based on only the results of four random guys. Btw all the abtirsi seems screwed up all the way from any thing above few generations.
It does seem quite screwed considering the HY individual is closer to the Habar Jeclo T-M70 individual in comparison to the Ciidigale which are both Garxajis.Just like how it is strange that the vast majority of Majerteen don't share a recent ancestor with the rest of the Harti clan.It seems these old clans were all confederacies of various lineages

[Dirir]

Can someone explain why yfull hasn't given the 2 Awdal samples their own subclade yet and the 2 issaq samples?. Yfull can give a subclade and a common ancestor estimate for a father and son but can't separate old lineages? :\

[farjanomar]

Hi everyone!

Yfull has been updated. There are some changes to the tmrca's of both Somali E and T.

[farjanomar]

Its odd Surre tmrca is so young at 300 years.

[GeelJire]

There's a Raxanweyn Geledi Haplogroup T sample. DYS425 = 14 would have been enough to predict the sample is T-Y16897 but that marker wasn't tested. He looks distantly related to the Isaaq-Dir, not sure if he will fall under T-BY181210. I noticed the Raxanwayn's DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii markers match with the Saudi sample (id:YF04062), not sure if those markers alone can establish this lineage as T-Y45591. Would be really interesting if this sample
turned out T-Y45591 but upstream of the the 2 Saudis on yfull, it might disprove the Red sea migration theory.

47725

[eli]

There's a Raxanweyn Geledi Haplogroup T sample. DYS425 = 14 would have been enough to predict the sample is T-Y16897 but that marker wasn't tested. He looks distantly related to the Isaaq-Dir, not sure if he will fall under T-BY181210. I noticed the Raxanwayn's DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii markers match with the Saudi sample (id:YF04062), not sure if those markers alone can establish this lineage as T-Y45591. Would be really interesting if this sample
turned out T-Y45591 but upstream of the the 2 Saudis on yfull, it might disprove the Red sea migration theory.

47725

Check with Esteban or Gareth Henson, they are the go to guys for T Strs regarding mutation rates etc., and might be able to assign him to his closest relative.

Those three markers alone are useless as he even shares them with other Hap T individuals who do not fall under T-Y45591.

[eli]

Geeljire

I am guessing that you were referring to the Isaaq/Samaron STR data in your initial statement as the Surre STR data is fairly different. For instance, the Surre DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii STRS are 14 13 29 whilst the Northern FTDNA samples are 14 14 29. Hence, I made a comparison between his STRS and a Surre one using McGee's calculator. He is closer to the Surre sample than both Saudi samples according to the aforementioned calculator. I also did a comparison using a Samaron/Isaaq modal haplotype of 7 FTDNA samples belonging to the above clans. Taken individually, the Northern samples produce diverse results. For instance, the Toljeclo sample has him closer than the Makkah Saudi sample whilst others have him at the same TMRCA. They also all appear to match more closely to the Rijal Alma sample than the Rahanweyn sample. The modal haplotype has both the Makkah and Rahanweyn samples at the same TMRCA. As you probably know, a comparison of a few STRS can produce misleading results so the above should be taken with a pinch of salt. This would explain why I am getting contradictory TMRCA info depending on the T-BY181210 Surre or Isaaq/Samaron modal haplotype STRS used. Hopefully Esteban will look into this.

A Y110 test would settle matters though. If the brother is willing to upgrade, please ask him to do so. Also let him know that another Rahanweyn who belongs to the same Omer Al Din lineage, Gasargude, has recently got T-L208 on 23andme. He also stated that he plans on doing an FTDNA test.

[Zxcvbn]

Geeljire tell them to upload it on Yfull so it can be easier

[Zxcvbn]

Garhajis might be fake or the Habar Yonis one is lost HJ

[GeelJire]

@Eli

According to an expert who analysed his STRs he doesn't likely belong to T-Y16897 but could possibly belong to T-CTS2214/T-Z709. Fortunately for us we wont have to guess any longer as he has taken the BIG-Y and his results are due soon.

[Tito_o]

Hey y'all,

I'm the Raxawayn sample.

My results have been posted on Tuesday. T-CTS2214 > T-Y15127 > T-Y15712 > T-Y15711 > T-Y19367.

Red Sea/Early bronze age.

Formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp.

I might upload it to Yfull to verify the TMRCA.

[drobbah]

Might be a Cushitic T-M70 subclade considering there are many Eritreans and Tigre T-Y15711+ samples.Do you have any BigY matches?

[Tito_o]

No.

The only Y match I have is 12Ystr match, 1 step genetic distance. She's an Iraqi who has done a Y37 test from basra, Al Zubair city. She belongs to Al Ammar Clan, her ancient origin is in Al Hasa region, eastern province in Saudi Arabia.

Ftdna put my Ancient/haplogroup origin as Iraq because of her. The tip calculator has us at the 7th grandfather, 51.12% probability share a common ancestor.

Her & I split off at T-Y15127.

[drobbah]

No.

The only Y match I have is 12str match, 1 step genetic distance. She's an Iraqi who has done a Y37 test from basra, Al Zubair city. Ftdna put my Ancient/haplogroup origin as an Iraq because of her.

Her & I split off at T-Y15127.
There are definitely a lot more Arabs on your branch compared to the Dir/Isaaq variant of T.I hope you decide to upload your sample to yfull

[Tito_o]

I've checked & compared the T-Y19367 with the rest of the Yemen, Saudis, & the sudanese downstream on Yfull tree snps. I don't score any of them other than the T-Y19367.

On Yfull they have SNPs currently defining Y19367 as FGC40979 & Other SNPs possibly defining T-Y19367.

{The Saudi Madina & sudanese tigre are under T-Y28599. The new Yemeni are under T-FGC40968 & the rest of the Saudi Riyadh are under T-Y19196.}

The final branch Ftdna has me is T-Y19367/T-FT189986. So if I upload it on Yfull will they have me as T-Y19367 just to get the same answer, doesn't sound appealing at the moment. Unless I'm wrong & the private variants could say much more.

I have about 35 private variants.

[Mnemonics]

Hey y'all,

I'm the Raxawayn sample.

My results have been posted on Tuesday. T-CTS2214 > T-Y15127 > T-Y15712 > T-Y15711 > T-Y19367.

Red Sea/Early bronze age.

Formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp.

I might upload it to Yfull to verify the TMRCA.


T-Y15127 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y15127/) seems like very interesting sub-branch that exist on both sides of the Red Sea but all the African Red Sea coast samples seem to be Tigre speakers (even the ones in Sudan). A Late Antiquity Lombard and a Turkish individual also belong to this sub branch so I assume its also an Anatolia_N related branch.

[eli]

I've checked & compared the T-Y19367 with the rest of the Yemen, Saudis, & the sudanese downstream on Yfull tree snps. I don't score any of them other than the T-Y19367.

On Yfull they have SNPs currently defining Y19367 as FGC40979 & Other SNPs possibly defining T-Y19367.

{The Saudi Madina & sudanese tigre are under T-Y28599. The new Yemeni are under T-FGC40968 & the rest of the Saudi Riyadh are under T-Y19196.}

The final branch Ftdna has me is T-Y19367/T-FT189986. So if I upload it on Yfull will they have me as T-Y19367 just to get the same answer, doesn't sound appealing at the moment. Unless I'm wrong & the private variants could say much more.

I have about 35 private variants.

Upload it to YFull just in case you and any other t-cts2214 Somalis form a separate subclade. Your upload will provide us with a starting point.

Considering how your upstream t-cts2214 subclade is comparatively ubiquitous on both sides of the Red Sea, Levant and North Africa, it is difficult to decipher whether your particular subclade arrived with the Ancient Cushites or as part of the Semitic settlement of the Horn of Africa. Hopefully more Horner T-CTS2214 samples will be uploaded to YFull.

[vettor]

Hey y'all,

I'm the Raxawayn sample.

My results have been posted on Tuesday. T-CTS2214 > T-Y15127 > T-Y15712 > T-Y15711 > T-Y19367.

Red Sea/Early bronze age.

Formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp.

I might upload it to Yfull to verify the TMRCA.

interesting on your marker

there is a paper on ancient T-CTS2214 coming from Black sea Turkey and arriving in

Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic )

I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: N1a1b
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 308
Other IDs: CHPKL101B-005, CHPKL101B-011 / S1160.E1.L1, S1161.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.95
Other IDs: CHPKL104-004 / S1165.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1166
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: H
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.981
Other IDs: CHPKL104-014, CHPKL104-026 / S1166.E1.L1 / S1167.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1170
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: T1a2
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.67
Other IDs: CHPKL105-030 / S1170.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1172
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.12
Other IDs: CHPKL108B-024 / S1172.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1178
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: I6
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 2.56
Other IDs: CHPKL109L-015 / S1178.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1180
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: T
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPKL109M-028 / S1180.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1187
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: U6d
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.12
Other IDs: CHPKL301N-001 / Library S1187.E1.L1
Other IDs: CHPKL109M-028 / S1180.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

Peqi'in Cave atDNA notes: Northern origin. They also carry the WHG G allele for Blue eyes at Rs12913832.


only other place I have seen this marker is Antalya province Turkey ......and North Spain on the atlantic coast

[Tito_o]

@eli

Just Done it. Waiting for results now.

[eli]

@eli

Just Done it. Waiting for results now.

Got a question bro if you could please help me.

The Gobron dynasty of the Geledi claim descent from Omar Din, a History I have encountered states that this ancestor traces his roots to Harar. I have also come across a similar ancestry for some of the Luwaay who trace their ancestry to Omar Din? Have you come across this?

[Tito_o]

Well, that's the reason why I'm doing the DNA test to begin with, to help make sense of it all.

My abtiris as far as my father & mother are concerned they're luwaay & laysaan. I found the abtiris.com wedsite & a jiroOn guy who wrote a blog about Digil & Mirifle [ https://waajid.wordpress.com/baro-abtirsiimada-iyo-taariikhda-qowmiyada-digil-iyo-mirifle/ ]. Where I've learned much about my oral lineage including & contrasting with what my parents taught me & IM Lewis book, just read the raxawayn page..

So far, I am stuck between two ancestors whom both are reported to be the forfathers of OMAR ad DIN, both came to Ethiopia between 612-615 CE. Abaadir Umar Al-Rida & Zubair Ibn Awwam. Even the Mirifle lineage goes through abu bakr as sidiiq. Either way I slice n dice my lineage they all go through one of these three men.

Hence, why I took the science route to help make a better more logical approach to understanding my lineage.

[eli]

Well, that's the reason why I'm doing the DNA test to begin with, to help make sense of it all.

My abtiris as far as my father & mother are concerned they're luwaay & laysaan. I found the abtiris.com wedsite & a jiroOn guy who wrote a blog about Digil & Mirifle [ https://waajid.wordpress.com/baro-abtirsiimada-iyo-taariikhda-qowmiyada-digil-iyo-mirifle/ ]. Where I've learned much about my oral lineage including & contrasting with what my parents taught me & IM Lewis book, just read the raxawayn page..

So far, I am stuck between two ancestors whom both are reported to be the forfathers of OMAR ad DIN, both came to Ethiopia between 612-615 CE. Abaadir Umar Al-Rida & Zubair Ibn Awwam. Even the Mirifle lineage goes through abu bakr as sidiiq. Either way I slice n dice my lineage they all go through one of these three men.

Hence, why I took the science route to help make a better more logical approach to understanding my lineage.

If you haven't yet, read Virginia Luling's book on the Geledi Sultanate. I came across Omar Din's ancestry there. Very informative.

Thanks for sharing your results. The percentage of Somali T bearers will be higher by the looks of it if more Digil Mirifles turn out to be T-L208.

Taking into account the YFull TMRCA of T-L208 and the age of the Peq'iin samples, it is very plausible that our respective subclades migrated to the Levant together from Anatolia.

[Tito_o]

@eli

I'm familiar with Virginia lulings' book, but haven't read it, it's hard to find a free pdf copy, besides won't find any new information more than already known.

No problem.

So far, it's the Gasargud 23andme sample & I that turned out to be T-L208. Which makes sense, since Luwaay & Gasargude share same paternal ancestor [Omar ad Din] with the rest ( hadame, jilible, laysaan, Gelidle, & Geledi ).

Mirifle & Digil are both related, one is a gggggrandson & the other is a gggggrandfather. The above mentioned tribes are related to Mirifle & Digil through a female named asha whose father is Aleemo whose father is Muhammad "Raxawayn" & a brother of Mirifle.

I won't be surprised with the possibility of us turning out to be different haplogroups, then again the Raxawayn abtiris goes through abu bakr & so is Abaadir Omar Al-Rida.

Hopefully others will be intrigued by watching DNA results on social media sites & curiosity takes over them into sharing their sample. As the saying goes "Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was the suspect."

[Tito_o]

My Admixture is almost same as @drobbah

93%Horn of Africa[Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somali]
6%Arabian[2%Arabian & 4%Yemenite Jew]

less than 1% Magreb & Egypt, less than 1% river Nile basin.

[Zxcvbn]

You should upload it on Yfull it’s 15$

[farjanomar]

You should upload it on Yfull it’s 15$

He did. This is him.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y19367/

[Tito_o]

It's on Yfull [ ID:YF97524 ]

The full analysis is in progress. They've adjusted the age of T-Y19367 from, formed 4400 down to 4300 ybp & TMRCA from 3300 down to 3200 ybp.

The formed age correlates to the flood year around 2350 BCE or 4372 years ago & the TMRCA 1250 BCE or 3272 years ago during the sea peaple, which is 1100 years after the flood.

Using creation date.

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~cpd/history.html <- starts the date & event from "the big bang theory" till year 2021.

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/timeline-for-the-flood/

[Tito_o]

Found this site very interesting that uses biblical & archaeological evidence about Noah's time & place. https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF3-01Hill.html

"This paper attempts to place Noah in real time and space. First, it is deduced from both biblical and archaeological evidence that Noah probably lived in Mesopotamia around 2900 B.C., in what archaeologists refer to as the Jemdet Nasr Period. Next, Noah's "world" is examined with respect to the geography, climate, irrigation, natural resources, agriculture, animal husbandry, cities, architecture, religion, pottery, textiles, luxuries, language, numbers, and writing of that time. The biblical Noah is then discussed in the context of the time and place in which he lived--how he was righteous in God's sight, why he built the ark, and how he could have obtained the materials (wood and pitch) for building the ark. It is argued that recent attempts to place Noah in the Mediterranean area much earlier in time make Noah a mythological, rather than a historical, person."

[NetNomad]

I asked YFull why they have British sub-national flags (like Scotland, Wales etc), but don't have sub-national flags for most of the rest of the world?
The response was that they go by ISO 3166 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_3166_country_codes) which has UK constituent countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GB#Countries_and_province) listed.

Posting this info in this thread as newcomers may wonder about this or those who want the Somaliland or Puntland flags and gobols added. They go by ISO 3166.

[Tito_o]

I asked YFull why they have British sub-national flags (like Scotland, Wales etc), but don't have sub-national flags for most of the rest of the world?
The response was that they go by ISO 3166 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_3166_country_codes) which has UK constituent countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GB#Countries_and_province) listed.

Posting this info in this thread as newcomers may wonder about this or those who want the Somaliland or Puntland flags and gobols added. They go by ISO 3166.



Can you kindly find out when is the next yfull update? They said they were moving to a new server last time I checked, it's read only for now.

I am now a downstream of T-Y19367 -> T-Y223124 which is upove stream Of T-Y28599 was Formed 3200ybp & TMRCA 2900ybp which is around after the Exodus & before the destruction of the first temple.

1178bce - 878bce. Using 2022 being before present rather than 1950.

I know My abtiris all the way to Adam a.s & goes thru Quraish, but I have a 7th great grandfather whose name is yeber!?! Which is a Hebrew name & a Y12str match at Ftdna, an iraqi whose ancient ancestor from Basra matches the 7th great grandparent using TiP at 51%. plus the peqi'in cave sample ( thanks to @Vettor ). That I've been trying to make sense of it all.

[eli]

New Ciise sample uploaded to YFull currently under T-FGC92488*. Not that surprising as the Iacovacci Ciise STRS were closely matched to the Samaron and Isaaqs on FTDNA.

[drobbah]

It will be interesting to see once the tree updates where he will end up (maybe a younger clade with the Samarone) and if the tmrca will change

[eli]

@drobbah

Don't know about forming a younger clade with the Samaron as the Isaaq and Samaron FTDNA samples had more similarity STR wise than with the Iacovacci Ciise STRS. Nonetheless, the Ciise STRS were not many hence it is best to wait for the YFull update.

[farjanomar]

The live section has been updated. The new Ciise and one of the other samples have made a new sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y207231/

What are your thoughts?

[drobbah]

The live section has been updated. The new Ciise and one of the other samples have made a new sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y207231/

What are your thoughts?
The other sample is probably the Bah Gob individual (a small subclan of Hussein Abokor).I think it’s the user GabrielZelalem

[eli]

The live section has been updated. The new Ciise and one of the other samples have made a new sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y207231/

What are your thoughts?

It is difficult to draw a line between Ciise, Isaaq and Samaron until more representative samples are uploaded.

I think it was Geeljire who first mentioned it in this thread that Ciise will probably come under T-FGC92488. With an Ciise clan member now coming under T-FGC92488, it is fascinating to note that many members of the aforementioned clans from places as far apart as Ceerigabo and Dire Dawa are probably the descendants of one man who lived not too far ago historically speaking. If only written historical records were left by our ancestors.

[Tito_o]

Finally! YFull has been updated my Formed/TMRCA is 3500ybp.

Fun fact: When subtract that from the current year 2022ce = 1478BCE. At that time Hatshepsut was pharaoh & her co-regent/Stepson/Nephew Thutmose III was about 2yrs old & Moses was 48yrs old living & working in Median about to full fill his contract with Jethro.

Amenhotep I was the pharaoh when Moses was born around 1526BCE he ruled for about 21 years, then Thutmose I took over for about 13 years, then Thutmose II for about 14 years, then Hatshepsut for about 21 years, then Thutmose III for 33 years, plus 18 years later Moses died at 120 years old in Jordan.

( I could be wrong if one believes Ramases II was pharaoh Moses sent to )

Fun fact: when subtracted, 3500ybp from 2022py from ( my age which I'm about to be ) 32 ( on August 31st ) = 1446BCE Exodus year. Similarly when added together same numbers; 3500 and 2022 and 32 = 5554BCE Adams' creation, using the Septuagint Chronology. Which makes earth 7576 years old in 2022ce.

( Then again I could be wrong if one believes in the Big Bang singularity, creation of all particles of matter & counterpart antimatter. The laws of physics governing their interactions; expansion, & cooling of space. Formation of the observable Universe, its galaxies, solar systems, stars, planets, moons, asteroids & comets which is about 13,800,000,000 Billion years old ;-)

[Flub]

Hey y'all,

I'm the Raxawayn sample.

My results have been posted on Tuesday. T-CTS2214 > T-Y15127 > T-Y15712 > T-Y15711 > T-Y19367.

Red Sea/Early bronze age.

Formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp.

I might upload it to Yfull to verify the TMRCA.

What is your subtribe?

[Tito_o]

How do I delete this specific post? Wanted to reply with quote but I fat fingered it����

[Tito_o]

What is your subtribe?

Luwaay, Cadde Mirifle, sagaal.

My abtiris goes through [ Barbar, cadde, Mirifle, Maxamad "Raxawayn" ]

Just found out as far as tribe/clan goes we are a luwaay, more so a sheegato in my opinion.

I'm more interested in my abtiris, forfathers & their forfathers than trabe/clan, most of them are sheegato.

Hogol Ling Hilowsinaayi by Isaak Eething hassing ( isak doolow ) is where all the Mirifle & Digil(Whom are both gggggreat grandson & a gggggreat grandfather to each other) abtiris & history are.

[Tito_o]

Finally! YFull has been updated my Formed/TMRCA is 3500ybp.

Fun fact: When subtract that from the current year 2022ce = 1478BCE. At that time Hatshepsut was pharaoh & her co-regent/Stepson/Nephew Thutmose III was about 2yrs old & Moses was 48yrs old living & working in Median about to full fill his contract with Jethro.

Amenhotep I was the pharaoh when Moses was born around 1526BCE he ruled for about 21 years, then Thutmose I took over for about 13 years, then Thutmose II for about 14 years, then Hatshepsut for about 21 years, then Thutmose III for 33 years, plus 18 years later Moses died at 120 years old in Jordan.

( I could be wrong if one believes Ramases II was pharaoh Moses sent to )

Fun fact: when subtracted, 3500ybp from 2022ce from ( my age which I'm about to be ) 32 ( on August 31st ) = 1446BCE Exodus year. Similarly when added together same numbers; 3500ybp and 2022ce and 32 = 5554BCE Adams' creation, using the Septuagint Chronology. Which makes earth 7576AM years old in 2022ce.

( Then again I could be wrong if one believes in the Big Bang singularity, creation of all particles of matter & counterpart antimatter. The laws of physics governing their interactions; expansion, & cooling of space. Formation of the observable Universe, its galaxies, solar systems, stars, planets, moons, asteroids & comets which is about 13,800,000,000 Billion years old ;-)


I got one more fun fact, couldn't edit it in.

If you subtract 5554bc from 1478bc = 4076bc at that time lamech/lamik the father of Noah was around 4 years old. Similarly If you subtract 7576AM from 3500ybp = 4076bc. If you add 4076bc and 1478bc = 5554bc. Lastly if you subtract 7576AM from 2022ce = 5554bc.

( Coincidentally, my name all the way to Adam is 120 names multiple it by 63.13 = 7575.6 or 7576 to round it up.) I used 63.13 simply my forefathers, majority of them lived longer than that, plus it's closer to our modern day retirement age rather than the 30 years per generation which would come up to be 3600. 7576 from 3600 = 3976bc lamech was 78 years old.

[Tito_o]

I've came across this site:

https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Country&searchfor=ISRAEL&ybp=500000,0

One of the sample T-CTS2214 { I4518 - Tel Megiddo } is 3375ybp { Israel - Megido LB I or early LB II } which is close to my TMRCA 3500ybp. Off by 125 years.

Found a "free" pdf couldn't post, but if ones curious google it, it'll be there.

ABSOLUTE CHRONOLOGY OF MEGIDDO, ISRAEL, IN THE LATE BRONZE AND
IRON AGES: HIGH-RESOLUTION RADIOCARBON DATING.

ABSTRACT. Megiddo (Israel) is a key site for the study of the stratigraphy, chronology, and history of the Bronze and Iron ages in the Levant. The article presents a Bayesian chronological model for seven ceramic typology phases and 10 stratigraphic horizons at this site, covering the Late Bronze and much of the Iron Age. The model is based on 78 samples,
which provided 190 determinations—the most thorough set of radiocarbon determinations known so far in a single site in the Levant. This set of data provides a reliable skeleton for the discussion of cultural processes and historical events in the region and beyond, including the periods of the Egyptian Empire in Canaan and the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

[warsame]

hi man talk about science and dna reality up to date

[warsame]

when are come Somali Haplogroup and abtirsi is very different. Some most of big clan are mixed and very different their linage so the only thing we can protect our clan is DNA codes

[warsame]

Luwaay, Cadde Mirifle, sagaal.

My abtiris goes through [ Barbar, cadde, Mirifle, Maxamad "Raxawayn" ]

Just found out as far as tribe/clan goes we are a luwaay, more so a sheegato in my opinion.

I'm more interested in my abtiris, forfathers & their forfathers than trabe/clan, most of them are sheegato.

Hogol Ling Hilowsinaayi by Isaak Eething hassing ( isak doolow ) is where all the Mirifle & Digil(Whom are both gggggreat grandson & a gggggreat grandfather to each other) abtiris & history are.

Luwaay means men belonging the flag, really I don't know what was that flag but I'm sure that was Islamic army flag from north.

[Tito_o]

Luwaay means men belonging the flag, really I don't know what was that flag but I'm sure that was Islamic army flag from north.

The name luwaay/luway/luay/luai irrespective of the spelling, it came from luway ibn ka'ab ibn murrah, whom was the first person to be known as far as the name luway goes. Omar diin who was a descendant of fiqi Omar abaadir, which makes sense for Omar diin to name one of his son's luway. If you Google the name luway there aren't many. I found one family who came to the state in the 1800 years, other than that couldn't find any.

Either way I might be wrong, but I have no idea what the name means as you stated.

I know of a gasarguud & a hadame who are both a match with me a Cadde mirifle on 23nme that are T-L208. As far as Hogol Ling Hilowsinaayi by Isaak Eething hassing ( isak doolow ) is conserned we share a forfather named Yonis Yusuf Muhammad.

To belong to the same haplogroup to me means atleast to a certain degree there is a common ancestor that both parties shares within their abtiris whether they know their abtiria or not. After all abtiris is the counting of the forfathers & haplogroup ( a combination of alleles at different chromosomal regions that are closely linked and that tend to be inherited together. ) is the connection that matches genetically speaking of said forfather.




They've updated myTMRCA which goes back to 1578bce & the age of the line goes back to 1955bce. both before the birth of Musa (52 years) & Yusuf (39 years) (A.S). Won't be suprise if they add/subtract 100 years or so in the near future as there's more SNPs to be discovered/add below & above T-Y223124.

[farjanomar]

@Tito_o

That's interested bro, that Rahanweyn have Hap-T. How many Rahanweyn Sub-clans are going to fall under HG T do you think?

[Tito_o]

@Tito_o

That's interested bro, that Rahanweyn have Hap-T. How many Rahanweyn Sub-clans are going to fall under HG T do you think?



1.2mill to say the least.

24-/+million somalis worldwide & 38% off it = 9-/+million raxawayne give or take. of that 9mill assumed 35% maybe shegatoo & 51%females = 1,260,000 HG T raxawayne Carriers. It could be more or less depending on the genuine statistics.

As far as sub-clans are concerned there are:

Seven Reer Omar-Diin,
Seven Reer Aw-Digil,
Four brothers; Mirifle, Caleemo, Jambaluul, & Bagedi"Mucajab", then
Caleemo's two sons(Erdho&Hifmuge), then
Six Reer Cadde Mirifle, then
Thirteen Reer Madoobe Mirifle.

The above clan/tribe/men are all related & meet at the same grand father in their abtiris named Yonis Yusuf Maxamad.

There are 2 samples hadame & Gasaar-Gude & one Cadde Mirifle that are HG T thus far.

With genetics we can know for sure & it'll take sometime to come to a definitive conclusion.

[Tito_o]

I've recently noticed the " age by this line only " on Yfull when you click on info. The age of my line is 3977. Using the Torah, Quran & other resources, I found that the Hebrew calendar 5782, plus there's a missing about 240 years, that would be 6022 anno Mundi. subtract 3977 it'll be 2045AM where my lineage goes back to that is 3 years before Isaac was born using the SOR (Seder Olam Rabbah) calender. Or the regular 5782 from 3977 would be 1805AM or using the vulgar year 2022 from 3977 would be 1955BCE.

All the above years fall between Abraham & Exodus.

Using the Septuagint calendar the 1955BCE is around when Jacob was about 51 years old before the birth of joseph & before the death of Isaac.

Since my TMRCA has been updated which is now 3600ybp that is 1578BCE towards the end of the hyksos rule in lower Egypt avaris as their capital & before their defeat by Ahmos I. Or 2182/2422 Anno Mundi

[Tito_o]

Here's my abtiris minus the first twelve names.

1My name, 2father's name, 3grandfather's name, 4GGf name, 5GGGf name, 6GGGGf name, 7GGGGGf Name, 8GGGGGGf name, 9GGGGGGGf name, 10GGGGGGGGf name, 11GGGGGGGGGf name,12GGGGGGGGGGf name, 13Barbar, 14Cadde, 15Mirifle, 16Maxamed"Reewin", 17Sifir, 18Kalmuge, 19Talmadar, 20Maxamed"Digil" , 21Deysan, 22Cumar, 23Ciise, 24Axmed, 25Yoonis, 26Yusuf, 27Maxamed, 28Cumar, 29Yacquub, 30Yaxyaa, 31Ciise, 32Muuse, 33Zakariye, 34Yatiim, 35Jamalu-diin, 36Maxamed, 37Cabdullahi, 38Maxamad, 39Cabdulraxman, 40Cabdullahi"Abubakar Al-Siddiiq", 41Cusman"AbuQahaaf", 42Camir, 43Camr,44Kacab, 45Sacad, 46Taym, 47Murah 48Kacab, 49Luweey, 50Ghalib, 51Fihr, 52Malik, 53Nadir, 54kinanah, 55Khuzaimah, 56Mudrikah, 57iilyaas, 58Mudhar, 59Niizar, 60Ma'caad, 61Cadnan, 62Xumaisi, 63Salamaan, 64Aws, 65Buuz, 66Qamwaal, 67Ubai, 68Awwaam, 69Nashid, 70Xaza, 71Bildas, 72Yaldaf, 73Tabikh, 74Jahim, 75Nahish, 76Makhi, 77Aid, 78Cabqar, 79Cubayd, 80Ad-Daaca, 81Xamdaan, 82Sanbiir, 83Yathrabi, 84Yahziin, 85Yalhaan, 86Arcawi, 87Aid, 88Deshaan, 89Aisaar, 90Afnaad, 91Aixaam, 92Muksaar, 93Naahith, 94Zaarih, 95Saami, 96Maazzi, 97Cawdaah, 98Caraam, 99Qaydaar, 100Ismaaciil, 101Ibraahiim, 102Azaar, 103Nahoor, 104Saruugh, 105Reeu, 106Faalikh, 107Eeber, 108Saalah, 109Cainaan, 110Arfahsaad, 111Saam, 112Nuux, 113Lamiikh, 114Matusalkh, 115Mahnauukh, 116Yaarid, 117Makhlaiil, 118Qainaan, 119Anwaas, 120Sheeth, 121Aadam.

My TMRCA/age of my line from the current years.

(5782+243)--> 6025-3600=2425Am=1335BC.

5782-3600=2182Am=1578BC
3600-2022=1578 BC

Or

(5782+243)---> 6025-3977=2048Am=1712BC

5782-3977=1805Am=1955BC
3977-2022 =1955BC

49822[/ATTACH

According to Septuagint calender Abraham was born 2166BC

2166-84(Ishmael)-14(Issac)- 60(Jacob)-51=1955BC that's -39 years before Joseph was born(1916BC) & 391 years later the Hyksos were defeated by Ahmos I, somewhere between 1550 to 1525BC.1526BC Moses was born, then 80 years later the Exodus happened at 1446BC where Thutmose III was the reigning Pharaoh.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49824

Using the sider olam calender from Adam to the flood was 1656, from flood to Abraham was 292, after 84 years he had Ishmael, then 16 years later he had Issac, then Issac had Jacob at 60, then Jacob had Joseph at 90, then 390 years later Moses was born, then 1520 years later ciisa/yeheshua was born at 6/4BC, then 575-+ years later Muhammad was born, then 1308/<--1065+243 years later I was born at 5991/<--5748+243. ( Taking hijr into account 135/378 years would be missing from 1443 )


There are two creation years 3761Anno Mundi &/or 4004Anno Mundi that's 243 difference. If you add 5000 years after 'let there be light' till today, the years passed so far is 11026 Anno Mundi. which is less than 974 years till full 12 days of existence (12,000 years).]

[Tito_o]

Using the sider olam calender from Adam to the flood was 1656, from flood to Abraham was 292, after 84 years he had Ishmael, then 16 years later he had Issac, then Issac had Jacob at 60, then Jacob had Joseph at 90, then 390 years later Moses was born, then 1520 years later ciisa/yeheshua was born at 6/4BC, then 575-+ years later Muhammad was born, then 1308/<--1065+243 years later I was born at 5991/<--5748+243. ( Taking hijr into account 135/378 years would be missing from 1443 ) ]


The hijr started in 622CE that's 52 years after Muhammad's birth in 570CE. 1443+52 is 1495. Take that away from 6025=4530AM. Muhammad must've been born around 4530AM.
I was born 1461 years after Muhammad. 1461+4530=5991AM

1,656+292+84+16+60+90+390+1,520+575+1,495=6178 years as of today, add 5000 since "let there be light" {5 days before the creation of Adam on the 6th day} = 11,178 years. That's 822 years till 12,000 years or 12 days.


Correction,
( 3761 and 4004 years are BCE not anno mundi )

[Tito_o]

The hijr started in 622CE that's 52 years after Muhammad's birth in 570CE. 1443+52 is 1495. Take that away from 6025=4530AM. Muhammad must've been born around 4530AM.
I was born 1461 years after Muhammad. 1461+4530=5991AM

1,656+292+84+16+60+90+390+1,520+575+1,495=6178 years as of today, add 5000 since "let there be light" {5 days before the creation of Adam on the 6th day} = 11,178 years. That's 822 years till 12,000 years or 12 days.


Correction,
( 3761 and 4004 years are BCE not anno mundi )

Made mistakes from Joseph to Moses, correct years are 170 & from Moses to Muhammad, correct years are 1384.

From Adam to Noah 1,156 from Noah to Flood +500 from flood to Abraham +292+100 later birth of Issac +60 later birth of Jacob +90 later birth of Joseph+170 till Moses birth +486 till David's birth +898 till Issa birth +575 Muhammad's birth +1,495 till today=5,822AM.

Birth Year "0" Adam
Birth Year 1,156 Noah
+500flood
Birth Year 1,948 Abraham
Birth Year 2,048 Issac
Birth Year 2,108 Jacob
Birth Year 2,198 Joseph
Birth Year 2,368 Moses
+80Exodus
Birth Year 2,854 David
Birth Year 3,752 Isa
Birth Year 4,327 Muhammad +1,495 from Muhammad till today=5,822.

Using the Septuagint
1,495+575+898+486+170+90+60+100+130+79+130+132+130 +134+130+130+135+100
+502+182+187+165+162+165+170+190+205+230=7,262.

120 Generations of my genealogy by 48.52=5822.4
Or
120 Generations of my genealogy by 60.52=7262.4

[Tito_o]

Here's my abtiris minus the first twelve names.

1My name, 2father's name, 3grandfather's name, 4GGf name, 5GGGf name, 6GGGGf name, 7GGGGGf Name, 8GGGGGGf name, 9GGGGGGGf name, 10GGGGGGGGf name, 11GGGGGGGGGf name,12GGGGGGGGGGf name, 13Barbar, 14Cadde, 15Mirifle, 16Maxamed"Reewin", 17Sifir, 18Kalmuge, 19Talmadar, 20Maxamed"Digil" , 21Deysan, 22Cumar, 23Ciise, 24Axmed, 25Yoonis, 26Yusuf, 27Maxamed, 28Cumar, 29Yacquub, 30Yaxyaa, 31Ciise, 32Muuse, 33Zakariye, 34Yatiim, 35Jamalu-diin, 36Maxamed, 37Cabdullahi, 38Maxamad, 39Cabdulraxman, 40Cabdullahi"Abubakar Al-Siddiiq", 41Cusman"AbuQahaaf", 42Camir, 43Camr,44Kacab, 45Sacad, 46Taym, 47Murah 48Kacab, 49Luweey, 50Ghalib, 51Fihr, 52Malik, 53Nadir, 54kinanah, 55Khuzaimah, 56Mudrikah, 57iilyaas, 58Mudhar, 59Niizar, 60Ma'caad, 61Cadnan, 62Xumaisi, 63Salamaan, 64Aws, 65Buuz, 66Qamwaal, 67Ubai, 68Awwaam, 69Nashid, 70Xaza, 71Bildas, 72Yaldaf, 73Tabikh, 74Jahim, 75Nahish, 76Makhi, 77Aid, 78Cabqar, 79Cubayd, 80Ad-Daaca, 81Xamdaan, 82Sanbiir, 83Yathrabi, 84Yahziin, 85Yalhaan, 86Arcawi, 87Aid, 88Deshaan, 89Aisaar, 90Afnaad, 91Aixaam, 92Muksaar, 93Naahith, 94Zaarih, 95Saami, 96Maazzi, 97Cawdaah, 98Caraam, 99Qaydaar, 100Ismaaciil, 101Ibraahiim, 102Azaar, 103Nahoor, 104Saruugh, 105Reeu, 106Faalikh, 107Eeber, 108Saalah, 109Cainaan, 110Arfahsaad, 111Saam, 112Nuux, 113Lamiikh, 114Matusalkh, 115Mahnauukh, 116Yaarid, 117Makhlaiil, 118Qainaan, 119Anwaas, 120Sheeth, 121Aadam.]


From "my name" all the way Cabdullahi aka "abu Bakr al Sadiq" is 40 by multiplying 35/38 years after a man becomes or completes fathering more children would come at 1400/1520.

Cuthman aka abu qahaaf was born around 538CE thats 1527 years ago. If you subtract either 1400/1520 it would = to 127/7 then add that to 538CE would = to 665CE four years after Ali's Assassination, Hassan-Mu'awiya treaty kick starting the Mu'awiya dynasty & Cabdulraxman ibn Cabdullahi aka "abu Bakr"was around 56 years old at the end of the first fitna or 545CE when abu qahaaf was seven years old.

Then again there're folks with similar claim belonging to haplogroup R, J1, J2, E, G etc with dissimilar tribe and clans.

[Tito_o]

Heres my Gedmatch & PCA results.

[Tito_o]

Some more Gedmatch results...

[Tito_o]

Last one...

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

A Ciise Muse, Isaaq individual commented on this video https://youtu.be/zqWwMmYegEE

His nickname is Berberawy, and he claims that his Y haplogroup sub clade is T-L162. This makes me doubt that the Dir T-208 lineage had a long presence in the Hijaz. I don't think the Ciise Muse carrying the T-162 lineage was obsorbed into the Isaaq clan rather there was a mysterious migration by the haplogroup T caryng Somalis, possibly from Iraq or Balouchistan, or a population group where T had a long presence. What are your thought regarding this matter?

[Adal]

There's a new Juba region sample that formed a subclade with one of the Adwal samples on the live tree

[drobbah]

There's a new Juba region sample that formed a subclade with one of the Adwal samples on the live tree
What clan is this Juba individual from? I assume it is a Southern Dir but I could be wrong

[Adal]

What clan is this Juba individual from? I assume it is a Southern Dir but I could be wrong

I've been told the Juba sample belongs to Baxar Guuleed, a sub division of the Tumaal, they claim descent from Daarood.

[drobbah]

For example, the 2 Awdal samples have 82 shared SNP's more than with any other group, but only 6 'assumed' shared SNP's. Due to the tentative assumed SNP's any subclade that is formed will include the assumed SNP's which were derived tentatively. That's just one example of why any subclade less than 1k years is pretty much not that reliable. Maybe in the future.
Criticizing yfull for their methodology of estimating the age of subclades is one thing but accusing them of wrongfully assigning an incorrect subclade is another

[Monk307]

Criticizing yfull for their methodology of estimating the age of subclades is one thing but accusing them of wrongfully assigning an incorrect subclade is another

I absolutely agree with you. I think there may have been a misunderstanding. My comment didn't suggest in any way that YFull assigned an incorrect subclade. I left a link where their own website mentions that the nature of assigning is based on a process which proves it is tentative. This is only in situations where someone's sample doesn't yield significant coverage where they can for example upgrade.

Currently the method in which new subclades are assigned is based on shared downstream SNP's which can be picked up in a test which has significant coverage and not in another which doesn't which is why some are encouraged to upgrade to Hg38 which YFull advertises as being able to pick up 'hidden' SNP's. This is just one example.

This is not to say that YFull doesn't assign correct subclades. They absolutely do, but the methodology that is chosen to determine its age is worthy of some criticism. It is something that is very much accepted by YFull themselves.

For example, the two Djibouti samples have their own subclade, yet their TMRCA is no different to the subclade that they share with the rest of those in the upstream T-FGC92488 that they also belong to. Just one of the many inconsistencies that does exist. By the way I'm not saying this because I'm trying to save a mythical clan link. I don't believe in either micro or macro clans. I believe almost every Somali clan is borne from clan alliances and confederations especially major clan families. You'll find some homogeneity in subclans but even then there will always exist inconsistencies.

But I agree with what you said.

[Adal]

The Samaroon & the Tumaal sample now share a TMRCA at 350ybp, that's really recent. The Tumaal is probably descended from recent Northern migrants. T-FGC92488 TMRCA is now 800ybp, though it will probably fluctuate every time samples are added.

[Monk307]

The Samaroon & the Tumaal sample now share a TMRCA at 350ybp, that's really recent. The Tumaal is probably descended from recent Northern migrants. T-FGC92488 TMRCA is now 800ybp, though it will probably fluctuate every time samples are added.

Currently T-FGC92488 is the only absolute reliable subclade simply because it is defined by upwards of 7+ SNP's. Same with the Surre subclade (5+ SNP's). Anything downstream of T-FGC92488 is defined only of 1 SNP and nothing else in a timeline that is itself dangerously susceptible to derived alleles (less than 800ybp).

Regarding YFull's age estimation, T-FGC92488 itself is a good example, when it was first established it had a TMRCA of around 700ybp, as more samples came in it shot upto over 1100ybp and as more subclades were created it fluctuated to 800ybp. Any conclusions being drawn therefore will be most likely be false. A much larger dataset could shed more light but currently it's too early and the timeline of young Somali lineages cannot be determined using current DNA technology as many would hope.

Regarding the Jubadda Hoose sample, he is a descendant of a Northern migrant probably within the last 5-6 centuries. The Baxar Guled is not a very well known community. But I had a conversation with the individual who took the Big Y, he told me that they identify currently with the Darood clan with links to the Harti and Ogaden in the south and are an artisanal community. He also told me that some of them have oral traditions where they descend from the Dir aswell. The more interesting thing is that their brother clan, Canbar Guled is Haplogroup A. You can see their results on the FTDNA Somali project. So they are most likely a confederation of different communities and not necessarily a clan in the Somali sense.

[NetNomad]

There has been significant immigration between Northern Somalia and the Jubbaland region in the 1800s. This is why the Maxaa Tiri spoken there sounds closer to the Hawd and Puntland dialect(s) than Mogadishu & Shabelle region Maxaa Tiri does.

[drobbah]

There has been significant immigration between Northern Somalia and the Jubbaland region in the 1800s. This is why the Maxaa Tiri spoken there sounds closer to the Hawd and Puntland dialect(s) than Mogadishu & Shabelle region Maxaa Tiri does.
The Darood bedouins who ventured south speak Northern Somali variety of Af-Somali while Banadir speaks the coastal Banadiri which is probably quite influenced by local Maay speakers judging by the grammatical differences between Banadiri and Northern Somali.This is the reason an individual from Djibouti speaks more similar to someone from Garissa,Kenya despite Garissa being geographically closer to Mogadishu

[NetNomad]

The Darood bedouins who ventured south speak Northern Somali variety of Af-Somali while Banadir speaks the coastal Banadiri which is probably quite influenced by local Maay speakers judging by the grammatical differences between Banadiri and Northern Somali.This is the reason an individual from Djibouti speaks more similar to someone from Garissa,Kenya despite Garissa being geographically closer to Mogadishu

Recently I stumbled upon a couple of Reer Xamar Benadiri guys on TikTok (as in ethnically Benadiri - not just the region) speaking an extreme form of Benadiri Maxaa and I barely understood it. :lol: Lol, although now most educated Mogadishu residents speak mostly in a Mudug influenced Maxaa Tiri and no longer the purely unadulterated old school Benadiri dialect. Nevertheless yeah it's interesting how NFD and Westbank Jubba region Maxaa Tiri is closer to more Northerly dialects.

As for the Awdal connection here, some Absame clans living near the Dir in Jigjiga also participated in these movements. Could be this.

[Bulletproofpride]

Recently I stumbled upon a couple of Reer Xamar Benadiri guys on TikTok (as in ethnically Benadiri - not just the region) speaking an extreme form of Benadiri Maxaa and I barely understood it. :lol: Lol, although now most educated Mogadishu residents speak mostly in a Mudug influenced Maxaa Tiri and no longer the purely unadulterated old school Benadiri dialect. Nevertheless yeah it's interesting how NFD and Westbank Jubba region Maxaa Tiri is closer to more Northerly dialects.

As for the Awdal connection here, some Absame clans living near the Dir in Jigjiga also participated in these movements. Could be this.
Most people in benaadir today are recent immigrants from Galmudug. The only ones with a real benaadir dialect are the clans and families that were there pre 1900s. They used to be the majority pre 1960s but are a minority today.

[Bulletproofpride]

Guys in what time frame did haplogroup T enter Somalia from Arabia?

[Dirir]

Guys in what time frame did haplogroup T enter Somalia from Arabia?

If the current yfull estimates are reliable, i would say somewhere between 200 BCE to 500 CE

[vettor]

300BC in South Africa .......for Lemba tradition, their male ancestors were Jews who left Judea to go to South Africa

name "Lemba" may originate in chilemba, a Swahili word for the turbans which are worn by some Bantu men, or it may originate from lembi, a Bantu term for a "non-African" or a "respected foreigner".

Mendez et al. (2011) observed that a moderately high frequency of the studied Lemba samples carried Y-DNA Haplogroup T, which is also considered to be of Near Eastern origin. The Lemba T carriers exclusively belonged to T1b, which is rare and was not sampled in indigenous Jews of either the Near East or North Africa. T1b has been observed in low frequencies in Ashkenazi Jews as well as in a few Levantine populations.[56]

[drobbah]

300BC in South Africa .......for Lemba tradition, their male ancestors were Jews who left Judea to go to South Africa

name "Lemba" may originate in chilemba, a Swahili word for the turbans which are worn by some Bantu men, or it may originate from lembi, a Bantu term for a "non-African" or a "respected foreigner".

Mendez et al. (2011) observed that a moderately high frequency of the studied Lemba samples carried Y-DNA Haplogroup T, which is also considered to be of Near Eastern origin. The Lemba T carriers exclusively belonged to T1b, which is rare and was not sampled in indigenous Jews of either the Near East or North Africa. T1b has been observed in low frequencies in Ashkenazi Jews as well as in a few Levantine populations.[56]
What does this post have to do with Somalis?

[eli]

HJ Samane Abokor. It might just be taking time to slot me into the correct branch but that would be interesting.

I know it might be a bit premature depending on how fast they are working on your sample, but do you share more SNPs with any branch/individual at the moment?

[Bulletproofpride]

I know it might be a bit premature depending on how fast they are working on your sample, but do you share more SNPs with any branch/individual at the moment?

Brother do you know of any Karanle with the T haplogroup. I’ve never seen one myself.

[eli]

Sorry, no.

[Bulletproofpride]

Yeh I personally haven’t seen them myself. Thanks for clarifying.

[s1abx]

Brother do you know of any Karanle with the T haplogroup. I’ve never seen one myself.

It is a baseless rumour and I highly doubt any Karanle is T. The only Hawiye that is T is Fiqishini (Ayaanle Cayr HG who live in Sool), but those again are originally Ajuuran apparently as they claim today in Kenya.

[Dirir]

Apparently id: YF112511 on yfull is HJ, i find it interesting that he doesn't belong to the main Northern lineage of T-FGC92488. Anyone know his sub clan of HJ?.

[Bulletproofpride]

Apparently id: YF112511 on yfull is HJ, i find it interesting that he doesn't belong to the main Northern lineage of T-FGC92488. Anyone know his sub clan of HJ?.

Drobbah will know he is Isaaq I think.

[Bulletproofpride]

Apparently id: YF112511 on yfull is HJ, i find it interesting that he doesn't belong to the main Northern lineage of T-FGC92488. Anyone know his sub clan of HJ?.

Why do HG claim them?

[Dirir]

Why do HG claim them?

By HG you mean Habar Gidir?, I’m not aware of HG claiming Habar Jeclo. If you meant Fiqishini then they are Ceyr of HG and descend from a Quran teacher who migrated to Sool region from Central Somalia. Haven’t seen their ydna results other than a rumoured T but this isn’t proven

[Saeed]

Apparently id: YF112511 on yfull is HJ, i find it interesting that he doesn't belong to the main Northern lineage of T-FGC92488. Anyone know his sub clan of HJ?.

He is on here, he said he is Samane Abokor


By HG you mean Habar Gidir?, I’m not aware of HG claiming Habar Jeclo. If you meant Fiqishini then they are Ceyr of HG and descend from a Quran teacher who migrated to Sool region from Central Somalia. Haven’t seen their ydna results other than a rumoured T but this isn’t proven

I have a 23andMe match with haplogroup T that said they are Fiqishini from Sool, haven't come across any others.

[Dirir]

He is on here, he said he is Samane Abokor



I have a 23andMe match with haplogroup T that said they are Fiqishini from Sool, haven't come across any others.


He should be encouraged to do Big Y/Dante full genome, would be interesting to see if he clusters with the Dir in Mudug

The other Togdheer HJ is Adan Madoobe (Maxamed Abokor) not that far genealogically from Samane Abokor. Unexpected results to be honest

[Bulletproofpride]

By HG you mean Habar Gidir?, I’m not aware of HG claiming Habar Jeclo. If you meant Fiqishini then they are Ceyr of HG and descend from a Quran teacher who migrated to Sool region from Central Somalia. Haven’t seen their ydna results other than a rumoured T but this isn’t proven


Yeh sorry I misquoted. I meant the fiqishini.

[Bulletproofpride]

Guys there is this new Somali Y dna T from Bakool that took 23&me On SSpot. This is apparently the 9th T carrier among the Raxanweyne. One user named Reformed J said something that was interesting. He said that there is a bakool sample under https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y223124/. This branch separated from the Dir/Isaaq T-L208 (8500 years ago). The bakool guy shares a subclade with Beni-Amers ( Beja and Habesha mixed people) in western Eritrea and eastern Sudan suggesting it's an old Cushite lineage. It’s likely that this new Bakool T carrying guy could be related.

I always new the most diverse Y lineages would be found among the Bay and Bakool regions, the coastal cities of Benaadir and the Harar region.

The Arab theory of T is looking weak.

Actually I believe the Arabian theory is still valid. T distribution is really confusing. The L208 branch has old sub branches on both sides of the Red Sea, Western Asia and Europe.

[farjanomar]

Guys there is this new Somali Y dna T from Bakool that took 23&me On SSpot. This is apparently the 9th T carrier among the Raxanweyne. One user named Reformed J said something that was interesting. He said that there is a bakool sample under https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y223124/. This branch separated from the Dir/Isaaq T-L208 (8500 years ago). The bakool guy shares a subclade with Beni-Amers ( Beja and Habesha mixed people) in western Eritrea and eastern Sudan suggesting it's an old Cushite lineage. It’s likely that this new Bakool T carrying guy could be related.

I always new the most diverse Y lineages would be found among the Bay and Bakool regions, the coastal cities of Benaadir and the Harar region.

The Arab theory of T is looking weak.

Actually I believe the Arabian theory is still valid. T distribution is really confusing. The L208 branch has old sub branches on both sides of the Red Sea, Western Asia and Europe.

So the statement of our first HG T big Y Rahenweyn ( @Tito_o) on this thread was correct that a big section of Rahanwen will come under HG. Amazing another major Somali Clan will also be HG T after the Dir Clan.

You guys can read his thread, when i asked him about, How many Rahanweyn Sub clans will be under HG T.

[farjanomar]

He is on here, he said he is Samane Abokor



I have a 23andMe match with haplogroup T that said they are Fiqishini from Sool, haven't come across any others.

Which one do you have? Fiqishini. I also have one on my list. Let's see if they are two different persons. (We don't have to give names) But we can use other information like Country/City.

Mine is from the UK, most likely Awoowe by looking at the birth year.

[Saeed]

Which one do you have? Fiqishini. I also have one on my list. Let's see if they are two different persons. (We don't have to give names) But we can use other information like Country/City.

Mine is from the UK, most likely Awoowe by looking at the birth year.

Mine does not have his location or birth year on there so it's probably two different people, so the Fiqishini you came across is T-L208 aswell?

[Tito_o]

Guys there is this new Somali Y dna T from Bakool that took 23&me On SSpot. This is apparently the 9th T carrier among the Raxanweyne. One user named Reformed J said something that was interesting. He said that there is a bakool sample under https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y223124/. This branch separated from the Dir/Isaaq T-L208 (8500 years ago). The bakool guy shares a subclade with Beni-Amers ( Beja and Habesha mixed people) in western Eritrea and eastern Sudan suggesting it's an old Cushite lineage. It’s likely that this new Bakool T carrying guy could be related.

I always new the most diverse Y lineages would be found among the Bay and Bakool regions, the coastal cities of Benaadir and the Harar region.

The Arab theory of T is looking weak.

Actually I believe the Arabian theory is still valid. T distribution is really confusing. The L208 branch has old sub branches on both sides of the Red Sea, Western Asia and Europe.



I have two matches on FTDNA:

One who is from the Al-Ammar clan https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y16240/ ( T-Y42782 ) related to the Al-zaid Tribe belonging to the Bedouin Al-Dawasir confederate tribes. He is one genetic distance from me.

The second match: FTDNA gave us the same SNP T-FTB81908 with a TMRCA of 2638ybp (616BCE) a downstream of T-Y223124 https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/T-FTB81908/story. He's from the Al-Harthi tribe/clan. He's an eye doctor in Riyadh.

I'm trying to figure out what type of Al-harthi he is!?! there are several Al-Harith on both Adnan & Qahtani side.

My lineage goes back to Murrah ibn ka'ab since I am "supposedly" a decendant of abu bakr Al sadiiq. which is why I did the Ydna testing to begin with to see whether is BS or not.

I found this site: https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1210512100159901696

{{{ The name Bani al-Harith was given to many tribes - in the past - among the Arabs, and you find a number of Arab tribes called al-Harith or Bel-Harith:

There is the Al-Harithi tribe of the nobles, and they are the sons of Muhammad Al-Harith bin Al-Hassan bin Muhammad Abu Nami Al-Thani bin Barakat bin Muhammad bin Barakat bin Al-Hassan, who ruled Mecca until the year 1010 AH. A number of plowing supervision in Makkah Al-Mukarramah 1256 AH

And there is the Belharith tribe in Najran that is part of the Jashm Yam tribes, by alliance and interdependence, not by lineage, because they go back to Al-Harith bin Ka’b bin Amr bin Ula bin Jald bin Malik (Madhij) bin Adad bin Zaid bin Yashjub bin Uraib bin Zaid bin Kahlan bin Saba bin Yarub bin Yashjub Qahtan

There are is Al-Harith, the people of Wadi Beihan in Yemen, and its lineage goes back to Al-Harith Ibn Al-Hassan Ibn Muajid Ibn Muthakir Ibn Yam from Hamadan.

There is the Bani al-Harith tribe in Medina, who go back to the Aws and Khazraj tribes of the Azd.

There is also the Al-Harithi tribe in the Sultanate of Oman, and they belong to the Zahran tribe.

there is the Al-Harithi tribe who go back to Al-Harith bin Abdul Muttalib bin Hashem, the uncle of the Messenger, may God bless him and grant him peace.

Also, Bani al-Harith lives in Sarat al-Hijaz and Wadi Tarj, and it is one of the tribes of Madhaj al-Qahtaniya, and it goes back to al-Harith Ibn Ka’b, the kings of Najran, and one of its famous homes.}}}

[Monk307]

So the statement of our first HG T big Y Rahenweyn ( @Tito_o) on this thread was correct that a big section of Rahanwen will come under HG. Amazing another major Somali Clan will also be HG T after the Dir Clan.

You guys can read his thread, when i asked him about, How many Rahanweyn Sub clans will be under HG T.

The Raxanweyn Haplogroup T is of a completely different and non related branch to the Dir Haplogroup T. The distinction is important. The two respective lineages only share a common ancestor over 7k years ago which is really surprising and fascinating.

[drobbah]

The Raxanweyn are interesting, there is even a confirmed deep tested E-M34 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y81387/) Raxanweyn on ftdna.It seems they preserved the lineage diversity that Northern Af-Maxaa speakers lost to founder effects by BA Egypto-Sudanese E-Y17859 & IA South Arabian T-Y16897/J-Y178104

[Tito_o]

The Raxanweyn are interesting, there is even a confirmed deep tested E-M34 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y81387/) Raxanweyn on ftdna.It seems they preserved the lineage diversity that Northern Af-Maxaa speakers lost to founder effects by BA Egypto-Sudanese E-Y17859 & IA South Arabian T-Y16897/J-Y178104



I saw that sample, is a leysaan which doesn't make sense, since laysan is one of the sons of omar-diin son of khutub son of fiqi Omar abadir supposedly, I share a paternal great grandfather with fiqi Omar abadir named yonis, Yusuf, maxamed . A gasarguud & a hadame whom both are paternally related & I have scored Haplogroup T both have not done y700 yet, so they have only been given T-L208.

Hadame & gasarguud are brothers of geledi whom the gabroon dynasty belongs to.

I have a cousin who is an OG thinks he's raxawayne told him to find out his abtiris & ends with ABSAME which is a none raxawayne name. my assumption is he's an OG. He lives in Germany I'm trying to convince him to take just 23nme to see if he gets T which I doubt, because we're only related through maternally. his grandmother & mines are sister. Even told him if he gets T I'll pay him back the money.

[Bulletproofpride]

I have two matches on FTDNA:

One who is from the Al-Ammar clan https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y16240/ ( T-Y42782 ) related to the Al-zaid Tribe belonging to the Bedouin Al-Dawasir confederate tribes. He is one genetic distance from me.

The second match: FTDNA gave us the same SNP T-FTB81908 with a TMRCA of 2638ybp (616BCE) a downstream of T-Y223124 https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/T-FTB81908/story. He's from the Al-Harthi tribe/clan. He's an eye doctor in Riyadh.

I'm trying to figure out what type of Al-harthi he is!?! there are several Al-Harith on both Adnan & Qahtani side.

My lineage goes back to Murrah ibn ka'ab since I am "supposedly" a decendant of abu bakr Al sadiiq. which is why I did the Ydna testing to begin with to see whether is BS or not.

I found this site: https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1210512100159901696

{{{ The name Bani al-Harith was given to many tribes - in the past - among the Arabs, and you find a number of Arab tribes called al-Harith or Bel-Harith:

There is the Al-Harithi tribe of the nobles, and they are the sons of Muhammad Al-Harith bin Al-Hassan bin Muhammad Abu Nami Al-Thani bin Barakat bin Muhammad bin Barakat bin Al-Hassan, who ruled Mecca until the year 1010 AH. A number of plowing supervision in Makkah Al-Mukarramah 1256 AH

And there is the Belharith tribe in Najran that is part of the Jashm Yam tribes, by alliance and interdependence, not by lineage, because they go back to Al-Harith bin Ka’b bin Amr bin Ula bin Jald bin Malik (Madhij) bin Adad bin Zaid bin Yashjub bin Uraib bin Zaid bin Kahlan bin Saba bin Yarub bin Yashjub Qahtan

There are is Al-Harith, the people of Wadi Beihan in Yemen, and its lineage goes back to Al-Harith Ibn Al-Hassan Ibn Muajid Ibn Muthakir Ibn Yam from Hamadan.

There is the Bani al-Harith tribe in Medina, who go back to the Aws and Khazraj tribes of the Azd.

There is also the Al-Harithi tribe in the Sultanate of Oman, and they belong to the Zahran tribe.

there is the Al-Harithi tribe who go back to Al-Harith bin Abdul Muttalib bin Hashem, the uncle of the Messenger, may God bless him and grant him peace.

Also, Bani al-Harith lives in Sarat al-Hijaz and Wadi Tarj, and it is one of the tribes of Madhaj al-Qahtaniya, and it goes back to al-Harith Ibn Ka’b, the kings of Najran, and one of its famous homes.}}}

So you got the same clade as the Bakool guy? You sheekhaal? You related to this bakool guy? Is this lineage from Arabia or from ancient Cushitic people?

[Bulletproofpride]

So the statement of our first HG T big Y Rahenweyn ( @Tito_o) on this thread was correct that a big section of Rahanwen will come under HG. Amazing another major Somali Clan will also be HG T after the Dir Clan.

You guys can read his thread, when i asked him about, How many Rahanweyn Sub clans will be under HG T.

Where is this clade from you think? Ancient Cushitic migrants or Arabia? It seems only Tigre people have it in both Sudan and Eritrea. I’m guessing it came via Arabia with J1p56 as the 1st wave of ancient Semitic People.

[Saeed]

Which one do you have? Fiqishini. I also have one on my list. Let's see if they are two different persons. (We don't have to give names) But we can use other information like Country/City.

Mine is from the UK, most likely Awoowe by looking at the birth year.

Does he have 1943 as his birth year?

[farjanomar]

Does he have 1943 as his birth year?

Yes. How do you know? Did someone share that info, since he not on your list.

[farjanomar]

Where is this clade from you think? Ancient Cushitic migrants or Arabia? It seems only Tigre people have it in both Sudan and Eritrea. I’m guessing it came via Arabia with J1p56 as the 1st wave of ancient Semitic People.

We don't know until we have many Clan members get tested and we get Clan SNP for the T Rahanween just like we do have the Dir T HG SNP. Then we can compare and find out its origins.

[Saeed]

Yes. How do you know? Did someone share that info, since he not on your list.

He is on my list, but pretty distant as a 5th cousin, I just looked at my few T matches and looked for one based in the UK who is old.

Btw this guy is not the Fiqishini I was referring to, so I guess there are two Fiqishini with T-L208.

[Tito_o]

So you got the same clade as the Bakool guy? You sheekhaal? You related to this bakool guy? Is this lineage from Arabia or from ancient Cushitic people?



I am the bakool guy https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y223124/ is my sample. I am not shekhaal. I am cadde, mirifle, maxamed, rewiing.

As a tribe we belong to the sagaal on the luwaay side of the larger Digil&Mirifle confederation whom by the way are both my great grandfather's. My forefathers came through the Eritrea/Ethiopian region around 1200CE and eventually some of their descendants settled in Xudur region. Awoow Raxawayne or rewiing lived around 1513-1530CE.

The whole entire Digil&Mirifle tribes other than those who assimilated themselves into our clan that grew into tribes are all related sharing same recent forefathers (ie Digil and mirifle) some of us share old common ancestor who's the great grandfather's of Fiqi Omar Abadir. Their names are Yonis, Yusuf, Maxamed.

We are not descendants of Fiqi Omar Abadir like the shekhaal but share a common forfather.

I've posted my entire abtiris on earlier post but redacted the beginnings of my abtiris. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15636-Somalis-and-T-Y16897/page16

My autosomal DNA says that I'm 68.3% Somali 27.2% Ethiopian/Eritrean. I have Almost same breakdown as https://www.somalispot.com/threads/my-23andme-dna-results.141066/

As far as where my lineage is from I'd say going back from Xudur, to the Ethiopian/Eritrean region, to the hijaz region, to all the way up to Eastern Anatolian region.

Specifically I cannot say, but it has nothing to do with ancient cush, but I do not doubt that some of my forfathers inter-married & lived among the descendants of Cushites.

Obviously there are haplogroups J, E, T etc who claim to be descendant of Quraish, Adnanites etc which is impossible unless Ibrahim AS or Nuux AS were multi latter haplotype/group such as CF, GHIJK, or IJK etc. unless their samples are tested it will never leave the realm of speculation & conjecture.

[Tito_o]

T-FTB81908 [ TMRCA 2638ybp-616BCE] whom lived around 30yrs before the destruction of the 1st Temple build by Sulaiman AS.

by that time prophet Jeremiah was 11 years old, & 11 years before the birth of Daniel & beginning of the reign king Nebuchadnezzar & his dreams about the Statue were happening and 6 years before the birth of pharaoh Neco II.

I'm not a Jew nor a Christian just pointing out some religious history fun fact.

[Bulletproofpride]

I am the bakool guy https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y223124/ is my sample. I am not shekhaal. I am cadde, mirifle, maxamed, rewiing.

As a tribe we belong to the sagaal on the luwaay side of the larger Digil&Mirifle confederation whom by the way are both my great grandfather's. My forefathers came through the Eritrea/Ethiopian region around 1200CE and eventually some of their descendants settled in Xudur region. Awoow Raxawayne or rewiing lived around 1513-1530CE.

The whole entire Digil&Mirifle tribes other than those who assimilated themselves into our clan that grew into tribes are all related sharing same recent forefathers (ie Digil and mirifle) some of us share old common ancestor who's the great grandfather's of Fiqi Omar Abadir. Their names are Yonis, Yusuf, Maxamed.

We are not descendants of Fiqi Omar Abadir like the shekhaal but share a common forfather.

I've posted my entire abtiris on earlier post but redacted the beginnings of my abtiris. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15636-Somalis-and-T-Y16897/page16

My autosomal DNA says that I'm 68.3% Somali 27.2% Ethiopian/Eritrean. I have Almost same breakdown as https://www.somalispot.com/threads/my-23andme-dna-results.141066/

As far as where my lineage is from I'd say going back from Xudur, to the Ethiopian/Eritrean region, to the hijaz region, to all the way up to Eastern Anatolian region.

Specifically I cannot say, but it has nothing to do with ancient cush, but I do not doubt that some of my forfathers inter-married & lived among the descendants of Cushites.

Obviously there are haplogroups J, E, T etc who claim to be descendant of Quraish, Adnanites etc which is impossible unless Ibrahim AS or Nuux AS were multi latter haplotype/group such as CF, GHIJK, or IJK etc. unless their samples are tested it will never leave the realm of speculation & conjecture.

Brother it is confirmed that the lineage of all the dozens of Adnan tribes are FGC8712 and the Quraish in particular are L859 and that the Banu Hashem are Fgc8703. The Arabs have done thousands and thousands of tests and have sussed out their abtirsi scientifically. FGC8712 is the only SNP that maintain two parallel descending lines with: one line is 100% Ishamelite-Adnanite (~150 kits, mostly mid-eastern) and the other one is 100% Jacobite (~40 kits, mostly from eastern Europe). The age of FGC8712 subclade is believed to be between 3400 and 4200 years before present. Fgc8712 is thus believed to be Ibrahim (AS) himself.

Are the fiqi Omar the sheekhaal from gandarshe? I heard the sheekhaal from Hararghe get E-M81. Other sheekhaal from other regions get E-v32. Since you are related to the gandarshe will they be getting the same T as you? Also the RX brothers are very diverse. I’ve seen so many diverse HG from those regions. Since the core original RX are your ancestors, would the majority of RX get your T?

[farjanomar]

@Tito_o

So do you think all 9 sub-clans will fall under one ancestor? How about 8?

Is Digil Rewiing or its only Mirifle?(8 and 9)

[Tito_o]

Brother it is confirmed that the lineage of all the dozens of Adnan tribes are FGC8712 and the Quraish in particular are L859 and that the Banu Hashem are Fgc8703. The Arabs have done thousands and thousands of tests and have sussed out their abtirsi scientifically. FGC8712 is the only SNP that maintain two parallel descending lines with: one line is 100% Ishamelite-Adnanite (~150 kits, mostly mid-eastern) and the other one is 100% Jacobite (~40 kits, mostly from eastern Europe). The age of FGC8712 subclade is believed to be between 3400 and 4200 years before present. Fgc8712 is thus believed to be Ibrahim (AS) himself.

Are the fiqi Omar the sheekhaal from gandarshe? I heard the sheekhaal from Hararghe get E-M81. Other sheekhaal from other regions get E-v32. Since you are related to the gandarshe will they be getting the same T as you? Also the RX brothers are very diverse. I’ve seen so many diverse HG from those regions. Since the core original RX are your ancestors, would the majority of RX get your T?


The key words on what you wrote above is regurgitated from this project says are "believed and claimed" there's absolutely zero evidence that the adnanites are haplogroup J. The only evidence if we can call it that is the project manager stating that the Jordanian king or some of the relatives we're tested privately and scored J that's it. A private kit never been seen by anyone else.

Without testing a known conformed sample of one of the graves of the prophets or many sahabah not just one it'll remain a conjecture.

The earth might be billions if not trillions of years old, because the earth already existed. G-d said let the waters from bellow gather and the earth appeared. Humans on there other hand cannot be more that 6000 years old plus or minus 23 years.

There's something iffy about how they calculate radiocarbon on skeletons that I can't put my fingers on.

Think about this if adnan is the descendant of Ismail and Qahtani is the descendant of Eber whom is an ancestor of Ibrahim, how can these descendants have different haplogroups ie J & T?

Here's another kicker, how can the Israelite share the same haplogroup as thotmose I who is haplogroup J? TT320-CCG61065 is a J-M267. this mammy's sarcophagus was changed multiple times. thotmose III and Hatshepsut wanted to be buried with him specially Hatshepsut and thotmose III never allowed it. Here is the CCG61065 samples Y haplogroup
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Country&searchfor=EGYPT&ybp=500000,0

I'm not saying haplogroup T is or isn't adnanites nor J vice versa. Just that there isn't concrete evidence.

European Jews love to claim the Cohen's lineage and how they're haplogroup J but mind you in the Quran Aaron calls Moses son of my mother!?! when Moses was given the tablet at mount Sinai then comes back to find out his folks worshipping the golden calf then grips Aaron by his beard in anger. Why would someone who have same mother and father calls his brother son of my mother.

This is my personal opinion that Moses and Aaron my not share the same father. Even in the Torah the lineage of Imran is mentioned in different chapters which never happens in the Torah all ligeag3s are usually mentioned all together in order but not when it comes to Moses and Aaron!?!
.

We cannot rest our hats on a private kit and some people claiming to be Cohen's. Majority of the Jews are R1a.

Besides there's a huge distinction between being a Jew vs an Israelite. One is a religious identity based on Yahwehsm developed after the Babylonians captivity and the other are an actual family that were not and will never be Jews.

Just look at FTDNA Arab haplogroup projects and pay attention to the tribes and clans you'll find J, T, R, E, G etc I'm talking about people who claim same tribes.

There's Al thunayyan who's T and the al Saud are said to be J when Saud and thunayyan were brothers. The house of khalifa, the house Al Sabah and the house of Al Thani abtiris goes back to Nizar Ibn Ma'ad ibn Adnan yet aren't haplogroup J.

I do understand the prevailing opinion, just looking for a more clear cut evidence.


time will tell.

[Tito_o]

Brother it is confirmed that the lineage of all the dozens of Adnan tribes are FGC8712 and the Quraish in particular are L859 and that the Banu Hashem are Fgc8703. The Arabs have done thousands and thousands of tests and have sussed out their abtirsi scientifically. FGC8712 is the only SNP that maintain two parallel descending lines with: one line is 100% Ishamelite-Adnanite (~150 kits, mostly mid-eastern) and the other one is 100% Jacobite (~40 kits, mostly from eastern Europe). The age of FGC8712 subclade is believed to be between 3400 and 4200 years before present. Fgc8712 is thus believed to be Ibrahim (AS) himself.

Are the fiqi Omar the sheekhaal from gandarshe? I heard the sheekhaal from Hararghe get E-M81. Other sheekhaal from other regions get E-v32. Since you are related to the gandarshe will they be getting the same T as you? Also the RX brothers are very diverse. I’ve seen so many diverse HG from those regions. Since the core original RX are your ancestors, would the majority of RX get your T?



Obviously you can see some people who claim shekhaal or raxawayne have scored E & T and some may score J, if we both came from the same descendants how would that be possible?

Raxawayne as a tribal confederacy may very be diverse but not the families who are the descendants of Reewing/Raxawayne nor Digil or Mirifle could be diverse Ydna wise.

I've never heard of the Gandarshe, so I can't say anything about them

[Tito_o]

@Tito_o

So do you think all 9 sub-clans will fall under one ancestor? How about 8?

Is Digil Rewiing or its only Mirifle?(8 and 9)



Digil is the great great great great grandfather of mirifle.

We have been divided into digil and mirifle both tribes are confederate. The whole 8 & 9 is the division of the confederacy. Digil and Mirifle are related paternally.

Tribally speaking Digit and Mirifle are both Raxawayne but Digil is the ancestor of both mirifle and Reewing aka Raxawayne.

Mirifle lived around 1572CE and Digil around 1362CE give or take.

I myself belong to the 9 on the luwaay side yet luwaay is not my grandfather. Only tribally are we luwaay not by lineage. I personally know luwaays who are OG, Mursade and have habar githiir we are related through marriage but will deny being anything other than raxawayne on the luwaay side they speak nothing but maay everything about them is raxawayne.

There could be at the very least half a million individual men who are truly Digil&mirifle that's carrying the haplogroup T more or less just my guess. Currently the raxawayne population exceeds far more than two million.

My guess is as good as yours.

[Bulletproofpride]

The key words on what you wrote above is regurgitated from this project says are "believed and claimed" there's absolutely zero evidence that the adnanites are haplogroup J. The only evidence if we can call it that is the project manager stating that the Jordanian king or some of the relatives we're tested privately and scored J that's it. A private kit never been seen by anyone else.

Without testing a known conformed sample of one of the graves of the prophets or many sahabah not just one it'll remain a conjecture.

The earth might be billions if not trillions of years old, because the earth already existed. G-d said let the waters from bellow gather and the earth appeared. Humans on there other hand cannot be more that 6000 years old plus or minus 23 years.

There's something iffy about how they calculate radiocarbon on skeletons that I can't put my fingers on.

Think about this if adnan is the descendant of Ismail and Qahtani is the descendant of Eber whom is an ancestor of Ibrahim, how can these descendants have different haplogroups ie J & T?

Here's another kicker, how can the Israelite share the same haplogroup as thotmose I who is haplogroup J? TT320-CCG61065 is a J-M267. this mammy's sarcophagus was changed multiple times. thotmose III and Hatshepsut wanted to be buried with him specially Hatshepsut and thotmose III never allowed it. Here is the CCG61065 samples Y haplogroup
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Country&searchfor=EGYPT&ybp=500000,0

I'm not saying haplogroup T is or isn't adnanites nor J vice versa. Just that there isn't concrete evidence.

European Jews love to claim the Cohen's lineage and how they're haplogroup J but mind you in the Quran Aaron calls Moses son of my mother!?! when Moses was given the tablet at mount Sinai then comes back to find out his folks worshipping the golden calf then grips Aaron by his beard in anger. Why would someone who have same mother and father calls his brother son of my mother.

This is my personal opinion that Moses and Aaron my not share the same father. Even in the Torah the lineage of Imran is mentioned in different chapters which never happens in the Torah all ligeag3s are usually mentioned all together in order but not when it comes to Moses and Aaron!?!
.

We cannot rest our hats on a private kit and some people claiming to be Cohen's. Majority of the Jews are R1a.

Besides there's a huge distinction between being a Jew vs an Israelite. One is a religious identity based on Yahwehsm developed after the Babylonians captivity and the other are an actual family that were not and will never be Jews.

Just look at FTDNA Arab haplogroup projects and pay attention to the tribes and clans you'll find J, T, R, E, G etc I'm talking about people who claim same tribes.

There's Al thunayyan who's T and the al Saud are said to be J when Saud and thunayyan were brothers. The house of khalifa, the house Al Sabah and the house of Al Thani abtiris goes back to Nizar Ibn Ma'ad ibn Adnan yet aren't haplogroup J.

I do understand the prevailing opinion, just looking for a more clear cut evidence.


time will tell.

You made a lot of good points but there are some few things you need to know.

The vast majority of Adnan and Saudi tribes in general are J1 specifically FGC12. The vast majority by far. Everyone knows this by now. Those few E, T etc are outliers. Adnan tribes specifically are FGC1872. FGC12 is the most common snp among the Adnan tribes and the structure of this tree resembles their oral tradition and family tree precisely. The Quraish tribe is well known, the same way we know who is Abgaal, Majerteen etc. Many Quraish claiming individuals tested positive for the L859. You can find one or two individuals claiming Quraish but if they claim Quraish then they are indirectly claiming to be related to all the dozens of Adnan tribe’s because they all have a common ancestor and if you don’t match with them than that person is seen as a fraud. Adnan tribes are not a small group you see. They make up half of Saudi Arabia while the other have is Qathan. I’m talking about the legit native Arabs and not the immigrants.

Aaron or Haarun as we call him is 100% Jacobite. He was the older brother of Moses or Musa. Quran says that he was a descendant of Abraham clearly. There is no debate about it. The word brother is used by Allah himself and by Musa to describe Harun. If you read the Quran you would have known this. I can show you the verses if you want that state that he is from Abraham.

The Sahaba are not reliable source because there were many Yemenite tribes like the Ansaar of Medinah as well as Ethiopians etc who are not Adnan. Therefore a large chunk among the sahaba would not be necessary Adnan.

Qathan has nothing to do with Abraham. Qathan is way older than Abraham because the tribe Jurhum that migrated to Makkah and saw Ismaeel and Abraham’s wife hajar were of Qathanite stock. Thus qathanite were already forming tribes while Abraham was still on earth. Qathan claim to come from HUD who was send to the ancient tribe of Aad in Hadramout. This tribe is so ancient that their prophet HUD would remind them of the nation of Noah and the flood. They are mentioned as the successors on earth right after the people of Noah. The Adites are believed to be among the first inhabitants of Arabia. The prophet Muhammad himself says prophet Hud was an Arab. They belong to what is known as the Extinct Arabs. At the time of the prophet Muhammad the poets would mention them in their poetry and they were seen as something from a distant past and long gone. Mainstream historians put them and the Thamud people in a recent timeline the same way they put the great pyramids of Giza on a recent timeline when there are clear proofs that it dates back to Neolithic times at the younger dryas and it’s as old as E-m78 it self. They even ignore the Atlantis and the Richart structure in Mauritania. They even ignore the drowning of rameses II. OOA theory is proven to be scientifically incorrect. Humans and their cattle, sheep, goats etc including the origins of the proto languages and civilisation itself all point towards the Middle East. We also back this up with the biblical and Quranic texts that states Noah and the ark landed on mount Judi at the borders of Syria/Iraq/Turkey modern day Kurdistan.

The Saud family is the real Adnan tribe compared to the other tribe you just mentioned. Al saud is from a bigger tribe that they call Abu hanifa who are said to be from the larger Rabiah tribe which also included Abdul Qays, Taghlib, al-Nammir ibn Qasit, and Anazzah. Vast majority of these people are FGC12.

[Tito_o]

You made a lot of good points but there are some few things you need to know.

The vast majority of Adnan and Saudi tribes in general are J1 specifically FGC12. The vast majority by far. Everyone knows this by now. Those few E, T etc are outliers. Adnan tribes specifically are FGC1872. FGC12 is the most common snp among the Adnan tribes and the structure of this tree resembles their oral tradition and family tree precisely. The Quraish tribe is well known, the same way we know who is Abgaal, Majerteen etc. Many Quraish claiming individuals tested positive for the L859. You can find one or two individuals claiming Quraish but if they claim Quraish then they are indirectly claiming to be related to all the dozens of Adnan tribe’s because they all have a common ancestor and if you don’t match with them than that person is seen as a fraud. Adnan tribes are not a small group you see. They make up half of Saudi Arabia while the other have is Qathan. I’m talking about the legit native Arabs and not the immigrants.

Aaron or Haarun as we call him is 100% Jacobite. He was the older brother of Moses or Musa. Quran says that he was a descendant of Abraham clearly. There is no debate about it. The word brother is used by Allah himself and by Musa to describe Harun. If you read the Quran you would have known this. I can show you the verses if you want that state that he is from Abraham.

The Sahaba are not reliable source because there were many Yemenite tribes like the Ansaar of Medinah as well as Ethiopians etc who are not Adnan. Therefore a large chunk among the sahaba would not be necessary Adnan.

Qathan has nothing to do with Abraham. Qathan is way older than Abraham because the tribe Jurhum that migrated to Makkah and saw Ismaeel and Abraham’s wife hajar were of Qathanite stock. Thus qathanite were already forming tribes while Abraham was still on earth. Qathan claim to come from HUD who was send to the ancient tribe of Aad in Hadramout. This tribe is so ancient that their prophet HUD would remind them of the nation of Noah and the flood. They are mentioned as the successors on earth right after the people of Noah. The Adites are believed to be among the first inhabitants of Arabia. The prophet Muhammad himself says prophet Hud was an Arab. They belong to what is known as the Extinct Arabs. At the time of the prophet Muhammad the poets would mention them in their poetry and they were seen as something from a distant past and long gone. Mainstream historians put them and the Thamud people in a recent timeline the same way they put the great pyramids of Giza on a recent timeline when there are clear proofs that it dates back to Neolithic times at the younger dryas and it’s as old as E-m78 it self. They even ignore the Atlantis and the Richart structure in Mauritania. They even ignore the drowning of rameses II. OOA theory is proven to be scientifically incorrect. Humans and their cattle, sheep, goats etc including the origins of the proto languages and civilisation itself all point towards the Middle East. We also back this up with the biblical and Quranic texts that states Noah and the ark landed on mount Judi at the borders of Syria/Iraq/Turkey modern day Kurdistan.

The Saud family is the real Adnan tribe compared to the other tribe you just mentioned. Al saud is from a bigger tribe that they call Abu hanifa who are said to be from the larger Rabiah tribe which also included Abdul Qays, Taghlib, al-Nammir ibn Qasit, and Anazzah. Vast majority of these people are FGC12.


Again the word is "claim" doesn't prove anything. Fihr AKA Quraish himself wasnt tested. The idea of "claiming" Quraish didn't became important till after the death of the prophet. Specially during the Qays and yaman wars that was happening throughout the Umayyid dynasty which contributed to their downfall.

The saud lineage isn't known past a man name Mani' ibn Rabi'a al-Muraydi who is said to be descendant from the tribe of Uqayl ,which belongs to the bani ka'ab branch of the larger bani amir confederation, which goes to the Hawazin all the way qais ailan where they meet the bani Tamim with their ancestor mudar and the Al Thani who are the descendants of bani Tamim are haplogroup T:confused:

Then there's this ancestor named MORDAKHAI BIN IBRAHIM BIN MOSHE who the Al saud descended:confused:

Since both eber some call him hud which he isnt and Ibrahim had a common ancestor how could their descendants have different haplogroups? Were they multi later haplogroups as in ghijk or something like that?

Btw hud was sent to AD not thamud.

There's no prophet that resided anywhere past yathrib let alone sent to somewhere in hadramaot. The judham lived somewhere in madian area northwest Saudi arabia.

Ibrahim never went to "mekka" in Saudi Arabia nor did Ibrahim came from ur of sumar southern Iraq close to Al zubair city. The migration from there to haran then down to canaan is absurd. Ibrahim is from ur- kasdim not ur of sumar.

The only reason everyone ran with the idea that Ibrahim is from ur of sumar is by the archaeologist Sir Leonard Woolley who established it as standard doctrine and called it "a city worthy of Abraham" with no proof. Cyrus Gordon dug with Woolley at Ur in the 1930s disagreed with him.

I know the Quran and the Torah by heart.

Moses calls him brother " in huwa min alhlii, haaruuna akhii" that's the exact wording he used to describe aaron in order to be sent with him to pharaoh Thotmose III. Aaron never called him brother instead !?"the son of my mother"!? doesn't mean they're not brother of course they shared the same womb but not from the same father but I digress and let's agree to disagree.


The prophet never said anything about Hud and their ethnicity. You're probably quoting it from the lies attributed to him so called "Hadith". Hadith steamed from ibn ishaqs siirah of the prophet then jaffar ibn sadiiq turned it into jurisprudence then both ibn Malik his student created the Maliki school of thought and hanafi his other student created the hanafi school of thought then shafici learned from ibn malik and created the shafici school of thought and ibn hambal learned from shafici and created the hambali school of thought.

Those men are no different than the writers of the so called "new testament" [ anything that was written or said by Paul 49ce, mark 55ce, mathew 60ce, Luke 60ce, John 60ce, peter 60ce]

both the Hadith and the new testament were written about men who never met by the writers and made it a religious sect out of it.

I don't trust what the prophet said that is said about him by people who never met him said.


Hey Maybe the prevailing opinion are right Haplogroup J probably is it and T is a fraud.

[Bulletproofpride]

Again the word is "claim" doesn't prove anything. Fihr AKA Quraish himself wasnt tested. The idea of "claiming" Quraish didn't became important till after the death of the prophet. Specially during the Qays and yaman wars that was happening throughout the Umayyid dynasty which contributed to their downfall.

The saud lineage isn't known past a man name Mani' ibn Rabi'a al-Muraydi who is said to be descendant from the tribe of Uqayl ,which belongs to the bani ka'ab branch of the larger bani amir confederation, which goes to the Hawazin all the way qais ailan where they meet the bani Tamim with their ancestor mudar and the Al Thani who are the descendants of bani Tamim are haplogroup T:confused:

Then there's this ancestor named MORDAKHAI BIN IBRAHIM BIN MOSHE who the Al saud descended:confused:

Since both eber some call him hud which he isnt and Ibrahim had a common ancestor how could their descendants have different haplogroups? Were they multi later haplogroups as in ghijk or something like that?

Btw hud was sent to AD not thamud.

There's no prophet that resided anywhere past yathrib let alone sent to somewhere in hadramaot. The judham lived somewhere in madian area northwest Saudi arabia.

Ibrahim never went to "mekka" in Saudi Arabia nor did Ibrahim came from ur of sumar southern Iraq close to Al zubair city. The migration from there to haran then down to canaan is absurd. Ibrahim is from ur- kasdim not ur of sumar.

The only reason everyone ran with the idea that Ibrahim is from ur of sumar is by the archaeologist Sir Leonard Woolley who established it as standard doctrine and called it "a city worthy of Abraham" with no proof. Cyrus Gordon dug with Woolley at Ur in the 1930s disagreed with him.

I know the Quran and the Torah by heart.

Moses calls him brother " in huwa min alhlii, haaruuna akhii" that's the exact wording he used to describe aaron in order to be sent with him to pharaoh Thotmose III. Aaron never called him brother instead !?"the son of my mother"!? doesn't mean they're not brother of course they shared the same womb but not from the same father but I digress and let's agree to disagree.


The prophet never said anything about Hud and their ethnicity. You're probably quoting it from the lies attributed to him so called "Hadith". Hadith steamed from ibn ishaqs siirah of the prophet then jaffar ibn sadiiq turned it into jurisprudence then both ibn Malik his student created the Maliki school of thought and hanafi his other student created the hanafi school of thought then shafici learned from ibn malik and created the shafici school of thought and ibn hambal learned from shafici and created the hambali school of thought.

Those men are no different than the writers of the so called "new testament" [ anything that was written or said by Paul 49ce, mark 55ce, mathew 60ce, Luke 60ce, John 60ce, peter 60ce]

both the Hadith and the new testament were written about men who never met by the writers and made it a religious sect out of it.

I don't trust what the prophet said that is said about him by people who never met him said.


Hey Maybe the prevailing opinion are right Haplogroup J probably is it and T is a fraud.


Again the word is "claim" doesn't prove anything. Fihr AKA Quraish himself wasnt tested. The idea of "claiming" Quraish didn't became important till after the death of the prophet. Specially during the Qays and yaman wars that was happening throughout the Umayyid dynasty which contributed to their downfall.

The saud lineage isn't known past a man name Mani' ibn Rabi'a al-Muraydi who is said to be descendant from the tribe of Uqayl ,which belongs to the bani ka'ab branch of the larger bani amir confederation, which goes to the Hawazin all the way qais ailan where they meet the bani Tamim with their ancestor mudar and the Al Thani who are the descendants of bani Tamim are haplogroup T:confused:

Then there's this ancestor named MORDAKHAI BIN IBRAHIM BIN MOSHE who the Al saud descended:confused:

Since both eber some call him hud which he isnt and Ibrahim had a common ancestor how could their descendants have different haplogroups? Were they multi later haplogroups as in ghijk or something like that?

Btw hud was sent to AD not thamud.

There's no prophet that resided anywhere past yathrib let alone sent to somewhere in hadramaot. The judham lived somewhere in madian area northwest Saudi arabia.

Ibrahim never went to "mekka" in Saudi Arabia nor did Ibrahim came from ur of sumar southern Iraq close to Al zubair city. The migration from there to haran then down to canaan is absurd. Ibrahim is from ur- kasdim not ur of sumar.

The only reason everyone ran with the idea that Ibrahim is from ur of sumar is by the archaeologist Sir Leonard Woolley who established it as standard doctrine and called it "a city worthy of Abraham" with no proof. Cyrus Gordon dug with Woolley at Ur in the 1930s disagreed with him.

I know the Quran and the Torah by heart.

Moses calls him brother " in huwa min alhlii, haaruuna akhii" that's the exact wording he used to describe aaron in order to be sent with him to pharaoh Thotmose III. Aaron never called him brother instead !?"the son of my mother"!? doesn't mean they're not brother of course they shared the same womb but not from the same father but I digress and let's agree to disagree.


The prophet never said anything about Hud and their ethnicity. You're probably quoting it from the lies attributed to him so called "Hadith". Hadith steamed from ibn ishaqs siirah of the prophet then jaffar ibn sadiiq turned it into jurisprudence then both ibn Malik his student created the Maliki school of thought and hanafi his other student created the hanafi school of thought then shafici learned from ibn malik and created the shafici school of thought and ibn hambal learned from shafici and created the hambali school of thought.

Those men are no different than the writers of the so called "new testament" [ anything that was written or said by Paul 49ce, mark 55ce, mathew 60ce, Luke 60ce, John 60ce, peter 60ce]

both the Hadith and the new testament were written about men who never met by the writers and made it a religious sect out of it.

I don't trust what the prophet said that is said about him by people who never met him said.


Hey Maybe the prevailing opinion are right Haplogroup J probably is it and T is a fraud.


Gosh, I do not know where to start.

Every single Muslim knows Hud was send to Aad in Al ahqaf region. I clearly stated that he was send to hadhramout. Thamud were established way after in what we call now mada- in Salih in northwest Arabia. The Thamud inherited from Aad and knew about their destruction. They are descendants from the survivors of Aad.

Non of the Saudi Adnan tribes claim Quraish. Only people outside of Arabia with no ties to the tribes of Arabia claim this like Indian, Somali etc peoples. The Quraish people are well known inside Arabia the same way us Somalis know where to find a clan like Duduble for example. All the Adnan tribes are overwhelmingly J1 FGC8712/Fgc12. EVERY ONE knows this by now. It is the largest lineage among the Adnan by far and matches their oral traditions precisely. Other lineages don’t even come close.


The pharaoh of musa is rameses 2. The mightiest of all pharaoh by far and it was the peak of Egyptian civilisation. How do we know that this is the same Pharaoh who drowned in the sea? Well it turns out that this body was discovered in 1898. Upon the request of the French government, it was sent to France for detailed examination in 1975–76. The senior surgeon and the scientist in charge of the study on this mummy of the Pharaoh was Professor Maurice Bucaille who later-on wrote his famous book “The Bible, the Quran and Science”. Based on the extremely high sea salt content within the organs of the Pharaoh’s body, Prof. Bucaille concluded that the only explanation for this is that this Pharaoh died by drowning in the sea. But it was astonishing how well preserved the body was despite drowning at sea. Now how does it all relate to the Quran? Quran says in chapter 10 verse 92 regarding Pharaoh: “So today We will save your body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people are heedless of Our signs”. His body is the most well preserved and you can find him in the museum of Cairo. It is approximately 3000 years old exactly matching the time period of Prophet Moses (as). He drowned in the Red Sea while pursuing Prophet Moses (as) and his followers among the Bani Israel.
There are countless other reasons but I don’t have time to explain them right now.

By the way I don’t think you are a Muslim. Or you must be these western confused ones. You say there was no prophet send past yathrib when Al ahqaf mentioned in the Quran where Hud was send is clearly in Yemen. You even said Ibrahim was never in Makkah. You don’t believe in Hadith. You claim harun is not the brother of musa paternally. You know what this all further proofs you are not even a Muslim. By the way who even mentioned Judham? No point explaining anything further. I was literally going to answer your questions and misconceptions with solid proofs from Ahadith and Quranic verses but it’s not worth it. I will just keep it simple with you and that is you as a T carrier are a minority in Arabia. You got nothing to do with Quraish or Adnan as a whole. I mean why even associate with Abraham when you don’t even believe in the factual events mentioned in the Quran about them?

Had to laugh hard when you said you know the Torah by heart.

[Tito_o]

Gosh, I do not know where to start.

Every single Muslim knows Hud was send to Aad in Al ahqaf region. I clearly stated that he was send to hadhramout. Thamud were established way after in what we call now mada- in Salih in northwest Arabia. The Thamud inherited from Aad and knew about their destruction. They are descendants from the survivors of Aad.

Non of the Saudi Adnan tribes claim Quraish. Only people outside of Arabia with no ties to the tribes of Arabia claim this like Indian, Somali etc peoples. The Quraish people are well known inside Arabia the same way us Somalis know where to find a clan like Duduble for example. All the Adnan tribes are overwhelmingly J1 FGC8712/Fgc12. EVERY ONE knows this by now. It is the largest lineage among the Adnan by far and matches their oral traditions precisely. Other lineages don’t even come close.


The pharaoh of musa is rameses 2. The mightiest of all pharaoh by far and it was the peak of Egyptian civilisation. How do we know that this is the same Pharaoh who drowned in the sea? Well it turns out that this body was discovered in 1898. Upon the request of the French government, it was sent to France for detailed examination in 1975–76. The senior surgeon and the scientist in charge of the study on this mummy of the Pharaoh was Professor Maurice Bucaille who later-on wrote his famous book “The Bible, the Quran and Science”. Based on the extremely high sea salt content within the organs of the Pharaoh’s body, Prof. Bucaille concluded that the only explanation for this is that this Pharaoh died by drowning in the sea. But it was astonishing how well preserved the body was despite drowning at sea. Now how does it all relate to the Quran? Quran says in chapter 10 verse 92 regarding Pharaoh: “So today We will save your body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people are heedless of Our signs”. His body is the most well preserved and you can find him in the museum of Cairo. It is approximately 3000 years old exactly matching the time period of Prophet Moses (as). He drowned in the Red Sea while pursuing Prophet Moses (as) and his followers among the Bani Israel.
There are countless other reasons but I don’t have time to explain them right now.

By the way I don’t think you are a Muslim. Or you must be these western confused ones. You say there was no prophet send past yathrib when Al ahqaf mentioned in the Quran where Hud was send is clearly in Yemen. You even said Ibrahim was never in Makkah. You don’t believe in Hadith. You claim harun is not the brother of musa paternally. You know what this all further proofs you are not even a Muslim. By the way who even mentioned Judham? No point explaining anything further. I was literally going to answer your questions and misconceptions with solid proofs from Ahadith and Quranic verses but it’s not worth it. I will just keep it simple with you and that is you as a T carrier are a minority in Arabia. You got nothing to do with Quraish or Adnan as a whole. I mean why even associate with Abraham when you don’t even believe in the factual events mentioned in the Quran about them?

Had to laugh hard when you said you know the Torah by heart.


I disagree with you in every point you made about hud, hadramout, Ramses II, FGC8712. I'm pretty sure you do as well. That's a okay. You're right no point in explaining anything to me. Your time is precious your shouldn't waste it on one of those confused western.

I've never claimed Quraish nor adnan. I took the genetic test simply to find out why my abtiris is the way it is. Even if it comes out to be true I will never be a Quraish nor Adnan neither do I want to. I was born a mirifle into a raxawayne tribe that's the tribe I belong to and my lineage, I know that 100% without a shadow of doubt.

I disagree with you in everything relating to Hadith, it is more corrupted than the Torah. I don't believe in Hadith they're all lies and have nothing to do with Islam the Quran itself condemned it. The Hadith actually corrupted the Quran in regards to it's translation and takes it out of its own context.

No hard feelings stranger. Thanks for the engagement

[Bulletproofpride]

I disagree with you in every point you made about hud, hadramout, Ramses II, FGC8712. I'm pretty sure you do as well. That's a okay. You're right no point in explaining anything to me. Your time is precious your shouldn't waste it on one of those confused western.

I've never claimed Quraish nor adnan. I took the genetic test simply to find out why my abtiris is the way it is. Even if it comes out to be true I will never be a Quraish nor Adnan neither do I want to. I was born a mirifle into a raxawayne tribe that's the tribe I belong to and my lineage, I know that 100% without a shadow of doubt.

I disagree with you in everything relating to Hadith, it is more corrupted than the Torah. I don't believe in Hadith they're all lies and have nothing to do with Islam the Quran itself condemned it. The Hadith actually corrupted the Quran in regards to it's translation and takes it out of its own context.

No hard feelings stranger. Thanks for the engagement

Quran commands a believer to establish prayer. It does not show how to. The Hadith is there to help us understand how to. It’s a fact that rameses II is the pharaoh of Moses who’s body is on display in Cairo museum today. It’s a fact that the vast majority of Adnan tribes are FGC12. In fact the whole FGC11 makes up 80% of all the Arabs in Arabia. And al ahqaf was mentioned in the Quran and it’s located in Yemen. All these 3 points are facts. I don’t know what’s not right about what I said. I don’t know how we ended up discussing these topics anyways. I just want to learn more about how your specific lineage ended up in Somalia. I assume it came with the earliest migrants from Arabia that included J1-P56.

[Tito_o]

Quran commands a believer to establish prayer. It does not show how to. The Hadith is there to help us understand how to. It’s a fact that rameses II is the pharaoh of Moses who’s body is on display in Cairo museum today. It’s a fact that the vast majority of Adnan tribes are FGC12. In fact the whole FGC11 makes up 80% of all the Arabs in Arabia. And al ahqaf was mentioned in the Quran and it’s located in Yemen. All these 3 points are facts. I don’t know what’s not right about what I said. I don’t know how we ended up discussing these topics anyways. I just want to learn more about how your specific lineage ended up in Somalia. I assume it came with the earliest migrants from Arabia that included J1-P56.



According to what you've stated suggest that the Quran lacks detail and is incomplete without the Hadith. Yet the Quran itself speaks negatively of anything relating to Hadith other than the Quran in many verses. There's no such thing as the Sunnah of the prophet in the Quran. The Quran only speaks of the Sunnah of the ancient and the Sunnah of Allah. The writing of the Hadith began during the Abbasid dynasty.

Al haqaf isn't speaking of the region of Yemen. There's not one verse relating to Yemen in any shape of form in the Quran, maybe the queen of Sheba where the jinn brings her throne to king Solomon.

The idea of Al-'Arab Al-'Aaribah vs Al-'Arab Al-Musta'ribah have nothing to do with Yemen as far as the location in southern Arabia is concerned but more so norther Saudi Arabia, south east Syria, western Iraq and Jordan. It's where the Qays and yaman tribes had constant in fightings during the mu'awiyah dynasty which lead to it's demise. Let alone the thamuds or ad being located in hadramout.

Here's a Twitter thread that goes into great detail the origin of Arabs relating to Dr Ahmed Al jallads work: https://twitter.com/sonofjenin/status/1371993289444974596

Ahqaf=great crooked hills of sand, What is long and crooked from the sand.

The thamuds and ads houses they curved on the mountains isn't located in Yemen (although you'll find ahqaf in southern arabia) because the people that were alive during the Qurans revelation were already living in the homes of some of the thamuds and ads that were left behind and I'm not talking about mecca in Saudi Arabia.


You're right FGC11/12 is mostly Arab but are wrong to suggest they're adnanites there are plenty of Qahtanis specially from Al azd tribe . There's no definite answer. it could change at anytime depending on the samples thats found in the near future. Am Paying attention to FGC11 and it's downstream most of the old clades are Yemenis and one Ethiopian sample.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/

I agree with OP here;

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22878-Breaking-up-Saudi-J1

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13018-Haplogroup-J-P58-s-true-origin

This sites explains in great detail why Rameses II was not the Pharaoh of the Exodus; https://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-date-1440bc.htm

It's up to you what you deduce of it.

There aren't that many horners sample to conclude that J-P56 and T-FTB81908 came together. J-P56 was formed 11,000ybp and tmrca 2,700ybp as stated currently on yfull and has only Ethiopian and Egypt from africa both less than a hand full samples, the majority are Yemeni and Saudi arabian.

T-FTB81908 was formed 3,600ybp and tmrca 2,600ybp and there's only one Saudi Arabian and I share that snp currently, the downstream of it has Saudi Arabian and sudanese from Kassala don't know there tribes.

[Bulletproofpride]

Can’t believe you are using Ahmed jallads work.

1)No one said fgc12 is exclusively Adnan.
2) al ahqaf is in hadhramout.
3) Rameses the II is the pharaoh of the exodus and is well accepted by Muslims and Egyptians alike. His body is the only one that is wholesome. In the museum of Cairo little Egyptian children can point out to you this well known figure.
4) your parroting what you have read online. Specially when you referred to the wars between the Qays and Yemeni tribes during the Ummayad. You have no clue why they even fought.
5) al azd is mostly J-Z640.
6) Aad are not known for houses. Thamud is. Once again Aad was ancestral to thamud and were located in Yemen. Thamud on the other hand we’re located in north west Saudi Arabia in mada in salih named after their prophet Salih. It’s thamud that was known for building houses carved from mountains.

Please refrain from reading random stuff online.

[Tito_o]

Can’t believe you are using Ahmed jallads work.

1)No one said fgc12 is exclusively Adnan.
2) al ahqaf is in hadhramout.
3) Rameses the II is the pharaoh of the exodus and is well accepted by Muslims and Egyptians alike. His body is the only one that is wholesome. In the museum of Cairo little Egyptian children can point out to you this well known figure.
4) your parroting what you have read online. Specially when you referred to the wars between the Qays and Yemeni tribes during the Ummayad. You have no clue why they even fought.
5) al azd is mostly J-Z640.
6) Aad are not known for houses. Thamud is. Once again Aad was ancestral to thamud and were located in Yemen. Thamud on the other hand we’re located in north west Saudi Arabia in mada in salih named after their prophet Salih. It’s thamud that was known for building houses carved from mountains.

Please refrain from reading random stuff online.



Such a compelling argument, the fact that all hyphen "Muslims" accept Ramses II as being the pharaoh of Exodus and even more so the children could draw him is hard to beat.

The archeological findings of the city of Iram began around 1990 by Nicholas Clapp after reading a book called Arabia Felix by Betram Thomas who claimed that he found the city known as “Ubar” ( located in Oman) by the bedouins but eventually dies before being able to complete his research. and using a map drawn by Ptolomy 200 CE.

what was it that proved this city to be the city of the people of Ad? A member of the research team leading the excavation Dr. Zarins, said that since the towers were alleged to be the distinctive feature of Ubar, and since Iram was mentioned as having towers or pillars, this then was the strongest proof so far that the site they had unearthed was Iram, the city of ‘Ad described in the Qur’an. The verse that mentioned the lofty pillars of iram is in the beginnings of surah Al fajr, Which describes said pillars
"The like of which were not produced in the land?

So does it predate the pillars/towers found in Gobekli Tepe site of the above pillars that was not produced in the land? which is dated to pre-pottery neolithic.

There are three theories regarding the hypothetical location of this city: The first connects the name of Iram to the region of Aram, a historical place also mentioned in the Torah which would correspond to the current Syrian capital and Aleppo. the second, Iram would be hidden in Wadi Rum, a desert valley in Jordan, near what were the Nabataean kingdoms. The third iram connects the name Iram with Yemen or oman(Ubar).

On the qays-yaman rivalry/conflict:

https://al-aalem.com/article/47515

https://m.ahewar.org/s.asp?aid=617798&r=0

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Qays%E2%80%93Yaman_rivalry

As far as parroting and reading random stuff off online, you should look into the reflection of your screen. We're all parroting in here and reading off stuff online.

[Bulletproofpride]

Such a compelling argument, the fact that all hyphen "Muslims" accept Ramses II as being the pharaoh of Exodus and even more so the children could draw him is hard to beat.

The archeological findings of the city of Iram began around 1990 by Nicholas Clapp after reading a book called Arabia Felix by Betram Thomas who claimed that he found the city known as “Ubar” ( located in Oman) by the bedouins but eventually dies before being able to complete his research. and using a map drawn by Ptolomy 200 CE.

what was it that proved this city to be the city of the people of Ad? A member of the research team leading the excavation Dr. Zarins, said that since the towers were alleged to be the distinctive feature of Ubar, and since Iram was mentioned as having towers or pillars, this then was the strongest proof so far that the site they had unearthed was Iram, the city of ‘Ad described in the Qur’an. The verse that mentioned the lofty pillars of iram is in the beginnings of surah Al fajr, Which describes said pillars
"The like of which were not produced in the land?

So does it predate the pillars/towers found in Gobekli Tepe site of the above pillars that was not produced in the land? which is dated to pre-pottery neolithic.

There are three theories regarding the hypothetical location of this city: The first connects the name of Iram to the region of Aram, a historical place also mentioned in the Torah which would correspond to the current Syrian capital and Aleppo. the second, Iram would be hidden in Wadi Rum, a desert valley in Jordan, near what were the Nabataean kingdoms. The third iram connects the name Iram with Yemen or oman(Ubar).

On the qays-yaman rivalry/conflict:

https://al-aalem.com/article/47515

https://m.ahewar.org/s.asp?aid=617798&r=0

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Qays%E2%80%93Yaman_rivalry

As far as parroting and reading random stuff off online, you should look into the reflection of your screen. We're all parroting in here and reading off stuff online.

1) Type these two words on Google images “pharaoh Islam” and see what pharaoh comes up 99% of the time.
2) it is well known by now that Al ahqaf and the people of Aad are from southern Arabia. Only die hard “Arabs are from northern Arabia and Jordan” fans like you get upset about it and come up with 1000 new theories. You might as well claim the real Makkah is in Petra.

[Tito_o]

1) Type these two words on Google images “pharaoh Islam” and see what pharaoh comes up 99% of the time.
2) it is well known by now that Al ahqaf and the people of Aad are from southern Arabia. Only die hard “Arabs are from northern Arabia and Jordan” fans like you get upset about it and come up with 1000 new theories. You might as well claim the real Makkah is in Petra.

There's no such thing as a pharaoh of Islam and there's nothing that backs Ramesses II as the pharaoh of Exodus. He's simply the Pharaoh of the Exodus for works of fiction. Ramesses II could not have been the pharaoh of the Exodus. Ramesses II died in his nineties, he was far too old to be chasing around in a chariot.

Exodus 1:8-11 says;

"Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we: Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land. Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses."

the construction of a treasure city called Pi-Raamses in the Nile delta is what led people to assume that Ramesses II was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. it turns out that the city of Pi-Raamses was actually built at the site of a much older city called Avaris, which had been occupied by Asiatic "aka the Hyksos" people for hundreds of years before the time of Ramesses II was even a thought.

Ramesses II had more than 100 children, of them, more than half were sons. He even had children with his own daughters.
Why would his wife or daughter adopt another son?
Why would a man who has such Virile worry about the Israelites multiplying?

"They" just want to make Ramesses II an E1B1B the pharaoh of the Exodus rather than the real pharaoh of the Exodus Tuthmosis III a J-M267 (don't know his downstream) who's the grandson of Tuthmosis I his sample is TT320-CCG61065 on this site

https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Country&searchfor=EGYPT&ybp=500000,0.

Here are The Mummy Cache found in DB320 which was later changed to TT320:

https://mathstat.slu.edu/~bart/egyptianhtml/mummycaches/DB320%20Cache.htm

https://members.tripod.com/anubis4_2000/mummypages1/Aeighteen.htm#Tuthmosis%20I

[ There has never been an Egyptian pharaoh who was found to carry the haplogroup T at the very least not found yet. There were pharaohs who carried haplogroup such as E, G, H, J and R so far.]

Mind you prophet Musa was not named by his biological parents, because they didn't had the chance to. his adopted family named him Moses. People who were familiar with that name and used it to elevate themselves with it to mean "Born of the god Thoth" could have, not Ramesses II or anyone of his wives, daughters or concubines.

I'm not upset, there's nothing to be upset about. Being upset is an irrational behavior. When I am wrong, am wrong it means I get to learn and reevaluate the information and correct my understanding despite the length it may or may not take. To me Being wrong is more valuable than being right.

[Bulletproofpride]

Type the “keyword” pharaoh and Islam. 99% of the pictures on google images will be Rameses II. But why would it matter to you anyways. Your not even Muslim.

[jay123]

Does anyone know how accurate yseq cladefinder is? I got t-1208 and considering I'm isaaq I assumed the more specific clade would fall under T-Y16897, but according to cladefinder it's under T-Y269895.

[Garaacad]

Does anyone know how accurate yseq cladefinder is? I got t-1208 and considering I'm isaaq I assumed the more specific clade would fall under T-Y16897, but according to cladefinder it's under T-Y269895.

T-Y16897 doesn’t have a long history in the Somaliland area. No offence, but you could have gotten your T1a from a Fiqishini. If you still feel unconvinced test for T-BY181210 on YSEQ for further confirmation. It would only cost $18.

https://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=BY181210&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&pfrom=&pto=&dfrom=&dto=

[jay123]

53531

I haven't seen any fiqishini get this subclade before. All i see is lithuanian person under it.

[Garaacad]

53531

I haven't seen any fiqishini get this subclade before. All i see is lithuanian person under it.

Yiddish is an old term Europeans Jews use on YFull.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y269895/

No Fiqishini has done the Big Y test. What they carry after T-L208 is still unknown. Most likely you got your T1a from them.

[jay123]

Yiddish is an old term Europeans Jews use on YFull.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y269895/

No Fiqishini has done the Big Y test. What they carry after T-L208 is still unknown. Most likely you got your T1a from them.

They should use the yseq cladefinder tool too see if they have a deeper clade then t-l208.

[drobbah]

T-Y16897 doesn’t have a long history in the Somaliland area. No offence, but you could have gotten your T1a from a Fiqishini. If you still feel unconvinced test for T-BY181210 on YSEQ for further confirmation. It would only cost $18.

https://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=BY181210&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&pfrom=&pto=&dfrom=&dto=
It does have a long history in SL...it is found in many Isaaq subclans and the Dir clans of Western SL as well.Are you insinuating that the Dir and parts of the Isaaq clan are recent arrivals to SL?

[Garaacad]

It does have a long history in SL...it is found in many Isaaq subclans and the Dir clans of Western SL as well.Are you insinuating that the Dir and parts of the Isaaq clan are recent arrivals to SL?

Sorry, I worded that post weirdly. I meant T-Y16897 isn’t as old as other lineages in the area like A, E, and J. So Isaaqs with T don’t necessarily have to carry T-Y16897.

[drobbah]

Sorry, I worded that post weirdly. I meant T-Y16897 isn’t as old as other lineages in the area like A, E, and J. So Isaaqs with T don’t necessarily have to carry T-Y16897.
Still very incorrect...T-Y16897 is pretty old in SL which is why a substantial percentage of the country belongs to this lineage

[jay123]

Still very incorrect...T-Y16897 is pretty old in SL which is why a substantial percentage of the country belongs to this lineage

Do you think predictor tools like Yseq is likely incorrect when it predicted T-Y269895? I don’t see how I can belong to any other sub Clade besides T-BY181210.

[drobbah]

Do you think predictor tools like Yseq is likely incorrect when it predicted T-Y269895? I don’t see how I can belong to any other sub Clade besides T-BY181210.
The only way to confirm your y-dna is to take deep test with any of the big companies.I don’t necessarily trust any tool tbh

[jay123]

The only way to confirm your y-dna is to take deep test with any of the big companies.I don’t necessarily trust any tool tbh

Yeah that's true. I've heard yseq cladefinder is pretty accurate but that subclade that it assigned seems completely improbable. I do come from a relatively obscure tribe (Ibraan) so maybe a different subclade is possible.

[drobbah]

Yeah that's true. I've heard yseq cladefinder is pretty accurate but that subclade that it assigned seems completely improbable. I do come from a relatively obscure tribe (Ibraan) so maybe a different subclade is possible.
Very interesting, you are the first Cibraan I've seen with result's,is your clan mostly T-M70?

[jay123]

Very interesting, you are the first Cibraan I've seen with result's,is your clan mostly T-M70?

Haven't seen any others besides me.

[jay123]

Also here's my G25 results 53587

[jay123]

Just to follow up, apparently the SNP E348 on yseq's website lists C for both ancestral and derived alleles when the mutation for the derived should instead be T, which answers why I tested positive for that specific SNP.

[jay123]

Do we know anything about the original population group carrying T-BY182320? I have my doubts its arabian in origin largely because its hardly found in the arabian peninsula even though that area is heavily sampled. It likely crossed from southern arabia but I don't think its native southern/central arabia. We also have to keep in mind that places like zeila, berbera, mait, were old trading stops visited by merchants going back thousands of years and whose origins are diverse.

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

@jay123 you guys have very misteruous origin your history puzzle is far from being solved. You could have been Sabeans or ancient population group who entered Horn from Egypt thousands of years ago, or even sea farer's. Its very possible that these older Dir lineage may have formed elsewhere in Eurasia and were brought by a handful of sea farer male's who arrived in the past Millennium in the Somali paninsuala. I think the best way to find out is to sample more Horn T carriers and Iran and the sub continent. I have noticed Sameroon and even sure Dir in Galmudug testing positive for minor Indian DNA this suggest to me Iranians, Arabs and Pakistani regularly used to visit Zeila and Maydh, so nothing could be ruled out here. Either ways just because you entered the Somali paninsuala from a certain national locaton and doesn't define your ancestors identity, nation states and human population explosion is very recent.

[drobbah]

Do we know anything about the original population group carrying T-BY182320? I have my doubts its arabian in origin largely because its hardly found in the arabian peninsula even though that area is heavily sampled. It likely crossed from southern arabia but I don't think its native southern/central arabia. We also have to keep in mind that places like zeila, berbera, mait, were old trading stops visited by merchants going back thousands of years and whose origins are diverse.
So far it looks like they were from Arabia, they seem to arrive at the same time with more stereotypical Arabian lineages such as J-P58 & E-M34; the Somalis diverge from what it seem clearly Yemeni subclades around between 2500 ybp to 2200 ybp.Perhaps due to founder effects this obscure T-Y45591 managed to be successful among Somalis.Considering both T-BY181210 & E-Y18629 currently dominate the vast majority of Somalis despite both being very young lineages.We have lost a lot of diversity from both Cushitic & Semitic lineages.Strangely enough us Isaaq seem to be the most diverse clan as we carry T-BY181210, E-Y18629 but also E-V22,E-V16,E-M78*,J-P58 etc.

The populations that arrived were responsible for Iron Tech,Camel herding/domestication and the minor Yemeni admixture many Somalis carry

[jay123]

So far it looks like they were from Arabia, they seem to arrive at the same time with more stereotypical Arabian lineages such as J-P58 & E-M34; the Somalis diverge from what it seem clearly Yemeni subclades around between 2500 ybp to 2200 ybp.Perhaps due to founder effects this obscure T-Y45591 managed to be successful among Somalis.Considering both T-BY181210 & E-Y18629 currently dominate the vast majority of Somalis despite both being very young lineages.We have lost a lot of diversity from both Cushitic & Semitic lineages.Strangely enough us Isaaq seem to be the most diverse clan as we carry T-BY181210, E-Y18629 but also E-V22,E-V16,E-M78*,J-P58 etc.

The populations that arrived were responsible for Iron Tech,Camel herding/domestication and the minor Yemeni admixture many Somalis carry

Thanks saxib. Apart from the ones on yfull, are there more yemenis with this specific subclade? I heard some hadrami indonesians carry T-Y16897, but they probably fit into T-Z19971 like the other hadramis than the somali specific one.

[drobbah]

Thanks saxib. Apart from the ones on yfull, are there more yemenis with this specific subclade? I heard some hadrami indonesians carry T-Y16897, but they probably fit into T-Z19971 like the other hadramis than the somali specific one.
I haven’t seen much Arabians with lineages upstream from the Somali-Dir T-M70 clade besides the two on yfull and considering the Arabians are over sampled then it must really be obscure unlike the more dominant J-P58 lineages.The Somali J-P58 diverged 2100 years ago (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y178104/) but are in a very Yemeni clade.The Somali E-M34 shares a 2000 ybp tmrca with a Hadhraami Arab in a Yemeni clade of E-Y102168 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y81387/)

[jay123]

I haven’t seen much Arabians with lineages upstream from the Somali-Dir T-M70 clade besides the two on yfull and considering the Arabians are over sampled then it must really be obscure unlike the more dominant J-P58 lineages.The Somali J-P58 diverged 2100 years ago (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y178104/) but are in a very Yemeni clade.The Somali E-M34 shares a 2000 ybp tmrca with a Hadhraami Arab in a Yemeni clade of E-Y102168 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y81387/)

Interesting. To me it seems more plausible that it arrived via merchants that settled down the coast. The success rate of this lineages among dir tribes and some isaaq seems to be that it wasn't a lone person but a group of related people. We also have more recent examples of this like the reer dood who came as merchants from India and settled with the somalis 500 years ago.

[drobbah]

Interesting. To me it seems more plausible that it arrived via merchants that settled down the coast. The success rate of this lineages among dir tribes and some isaaq seems to be that it wasn't a lone person but a group of related people. We also have more recent examples of this like the reer dood who came as merchants from India and settled with the somalis 500 years ago.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the Semitic lineages in Somalis diverged from their Arabian counterparts around the same time ~1000 BCE which suggests a tribe/ethnic group with multiple lineages crossed over into the lowlands of Horn and assimilated among proto-Somaloids.This is also why East African camels are the closest relatives to South Arabian camels despite East African camels being isolated for a very long time.This time period is also when the proto Ethio-Semites crossed over from Yemen into the Northern Horn (Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia)


Here, the geographic accessibility of the regions thus seems to have also somewhat limited the extent of the homogenizing force. Surprisingly, the populations from South Arabia show minimal genetic distance to those populations from East Africa, and not North Arabia. It likely suggests an early introduction from South Arabia into East Africa by boats, through the Red Sea. When this took place is presently unknown, but could probably be inferred in the future using methods in statistical genomics exploiting genome-wide information


A seaborne introduction appears likely, because there is increasing evidence that the southern Arabian Peninsula played an important role in domestication [e.g., African wild ass (29)] and in the transfer of crops and livestock [e.g., zebu cattle, fat-tailed sheep (30, 31)] between South Asia and the African continent. Additional evidence for a separate introduction might come from socio-ethological observations; today’s Eastern African dromedaries are used largely for milk production rather than for riding and transportation, and this use could be rooted in practices associated with the early stage of dromedary husbandry in the southern Arabian Peninsula (1, 7).

[drobbah]

Interesting. To me it seems more plausible that it arrived via merchants that settled down the coast. The success rate of this lineages among dir tribes and some isaaq seems to be that it wasn't a lone person but a group of related people. We also have more recent examples of this like the reer dood who came as merchants from India and settled with the somalis 500 years ago.
Do you have Reer Dood ancestry? You are the most Arabian 'pure' Somali I've come across so far.

[jay123]

Do you have Reer Dood ancestry? You are the most Arabian 'pure' Somali I've come across so far.

No the spiciest ancestry I have is dhulbahante lol I'm as bland as they come

[drobbah]

That Raxanweyn T-Y223124 sample seems to be what might be the Cushitic T-M70 subclade.Too many Tigre on that clade,Arabians carry young lineages, the Af-Maay Raxanweyn is basal to the Tigre in his clade & the Arabians.T-Y15711 formed around ~8000 years ago which goes back to the breakup of proto-Cushitic.The Yemenis probably got it from Horners going the way across the Red Sea and the Yemenis spread it in Arabia reminds me of Saudi E-BY8100 which is a 2600 year old Somali clade only found in Arabia


https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y15711/

[jay123]

That Raxanweyn T-Y223124 sample seems to be what might be the Cushitic T-M70 subclade.Too many Tigre on that clade,Arabians carry young lineages, the Af-Maay Raxanweyn is basal to the Tigre in his clade & the Arabians.T-Y15711 formed around ~8000 years ago which goes back to the breakup of proto-Cushitic.The Yemenis probably got it from Horners going the way across the Red Sea and the Yemenis spread it in Arabia reminds me of Saudi E-BY8100 which is a 2600 year old Somali clade only found in Arabia


https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y15711/

Seems like the logical path tbh. South arabian lineages should be easier to snuff out just by looking at tmrcas on yfull.