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lucian_samasota
10-16-2018, 01:15 PM
Hi everybody,

I am Kurd from both parents. Since I am new I need your help to understand my DNA profile and ethnic composition.

Below are some of the results:

Eurogenes K36

Amerindian -
Arabian 5.90
Armenian 9.67
Basque 0.76
Central_African -
Central_Euro 0.83
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 16.09
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese 0.73
Italian 6.74
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 13.78
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 20.98
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian 2.20
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 15.71
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.06
West_African -
West_Caucasian 6.53


*
MDLP 23b


Amerindian -
Ancestral_Altaic 4.87
South_Central_Asian 21.48
Arctic -
South_Indian 1.12
Australoid 0.39
Austronesian 0.09
Caucasian 38.05
Archaic_Human 0.22
East_African 0.79
East_Siberian 2.47
European_Early_Farmers 5.72
Khoisan -
Melano_Polynesian -
Archaic_African 0.10
Near_East 14.26
North_African 4.06
Paleo_Siberian -
African_Pygmy -
South_East_Asian 1.13
Subsaharian 0.26
Tungus-Altaic 2.16
European_Hunters_Gatherers 2.80


**

The K12b


Gedrosia 22.64
Siberian 3.40
Northwest_African 1.22
Southeast_Asian 1.16
Atlantic_Med 9.39
North_European 6.42
South_Asian 1.61
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 13.93
East_Asian 1.12
Caucasus 38.61
Sub_Saharan

Lupus82
10-16-2018, 01:18 PM
You are a Kurd. Probably you have a Turkish ancestor a few generations back.

lucian_samasota
10-16-2018, 02:40 PM
Thanks, Lupus. How do you predict I may have a a Turkish ancestor a few generations back?

Lupus82
10-16-2018, 02:53 PM
You score a few points on Indo-Chinese and Siberian components on Eurogenes K36. They are marker of Turkic populations.

lucian_samasota
10-17-2018, 05:13 PM
Thanks a lot, Lupus82

Alkaevli
10-20-2018, 03:11 PM
Hi everybody,

I am Kurd from both parents. Since I am new I need your help to understand my DNA profile and ethnic composition.

Below are some of the results:

The K12b

Gedrosia 22.64
Siberian 3.40
Northwest_African 1.22
Southeast_Asian 1.16
Atlantic_Med 9.39
North_European 6.42
South_Asian 1.61
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 13.93
East_Asian 1.12
Caucasus 38.61
Sub_Saharan

Your Oracle results (with out project's populations averages)


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 3,338997
2 Azerbaijani_Iran @ 3,623603
3 Turkmen_Iraq @ 4,287435
4 Zaza @ 4,663829
5 Azerbaijani @ 4,731596
6 Azerbaijani_Turkey @ 4,832556
7 Kurd_Sorani @ 5,184535
8 Turk_Southeast @ 5,274571
9 Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 6,38647
10 Turk_East @ 7,013537
11 Lur_Iran @ 7,32753
12 Feyli_Iran @ 7,615228
13 Turk_Central_East @ 9,270874
14 Iranian @ 9,326269
15 Turk_South @ 9,544663
16 Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 10,18657
17 Iran_Iron_Age @ 10,494575
18 Turk_Central_West @ 11,554445
19 Azerbaijani_Dagestan @ 13,016866
20 Assyrian @ 13,33564

Using 2 population approximation:
1 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut @ 1,982876
2 %3 Evenk + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 1,994683
3 %3 Dolgan + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,01535
4 %98 Kurd_Kurmanji + %2 Nganassan @ 2,159603
5 %3 DA28_GoldenHordeMongol + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,215634
6 %62 Lur_Iran + %38 Turk_Central_West @ 2,232917
7 %3 Buryat + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,248245
8 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Nenet @ 2,252277
9 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Tuva @ 2,259285
10 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Oroqen @ 2,313869
11 %59 Lur_Iran + %41 Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 2,34871
12 %3 Ket + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,352158
13 %56 Lur_Iran + %44 Turk_Central_East @ 2,370506
14 %80 Kurd_Kurmanji + %20 Turk_South @ 2,373964
15 %81 Kurd_Kurmanji + %19 Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 2,397602
16 %86 Kurd_Kurmanji + %14 Turk_Southwest @ 2,404118
17 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Mongol_Khalka @ 2,409623
18 %3 Kalmyk + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,410327
19 %57 Lur_Iran + %43 Turk_South @ 2,413049
20 %4 Altai + %96 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,416076


Using 3 population approximation:
1 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Greek_Cyprus @ 1,340797
2 %88 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %9 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,344367
3 %3 Evenk + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Greek_Cyprus @ 1,361035
4 %3 Evenk + %88 Kurd_Kurmanji + %9 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,361507
5 %3 Dolgan + %88 Kurd_Kurmanji + %9 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,369057
6 %3 Dolgan + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Greek_Cyprus @ 1,38928
7 %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %5 Hattian_Anatolia_BA @ 1,391131
8 %3 Evenk + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Hattian_Anatolia_BA @ 1,398713
9 %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %5 Sephardic_Jew @ 1,402766
10 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Turk_Cyprus + %3 Yakut @ 1,40501
11 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Turk_Cyprus @ 1,40501
12 %3 Dolgan + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Hattian_Anatolia_BA @ 1,421937
13 %3 Evenk + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Sephardic_Jew @ 1,422365
14 %3 Evenk + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Turk_Cyprus @ 1,431476
15 %3 Dolgan + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Turk_Cyprus @ 1,463384
16 %3 Dolgan + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Sephardic_Jew @ 1,46734
17 %87 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Nenet + %10 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,497142
18 %91 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %6 Greek_Crete @ 1,527282
19 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Lebanese @ 1,533675
20 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Greek_Cappadocia @ 1,538933

You seem to have some Turkic ancestry. Which province are you from? I would say Kahramanmaraş, I've seen Kurds with similar results from that province.

StarDS9
10-20-2018, 04:33 PM
Your Oracle results (with out project's populations averages)


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 3,338997
2 Azerbaijani_Iran @ 3,623603
3 Turkmen_Iraq @ 4,287435
4 Zaza @ 4,663829
5 Azerbaijani @ 4,731596
6 Azerbaijani_Turkey @ 4,832556
7 Kurd_Sorani @ 5,184535
8 Turk_Southeast @ 5,274571
9 Talysh_Azerbaijan @ 6,38647
10 Turk_East @ 7,013537
11 Lur_Iran @ 7,32753
12 Feyli_Iran @ 7,615228
13 Turk_Central_East @ 9,270874
14 Iranian @ 9,326269
15 Turk_South @ 9,544663
16 Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 10,18657
17 Iran_Iron_Age @ 10,494575
18 Turk_Central_West @ 11,554445
19 Azerbaijani_Dagestan @ 13,016866
20 Assyrian @ 13,33564

Using 2 population approximation:
1 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut @ 1,982876
2 %3 Evenk + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 1,994683
3 %3 Dolgan + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,01535
4 %98 Kurd_Kurmanji + %2 Nganassan @ 2,159603
5 %3 DA28_GoldenHordeMongol + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,215634
6 %62 Lur_Iran + %38 Turk_Central_West @ 2,232917
7 %3 Buryat + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,248245
8 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Nenet @ 2,252277
9 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Tuva @ 2,259285
10 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Oroqen @ 2,313869
11 %59 Lur_Iran + %41 Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 2,34871
12 %3 Ket + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,352158
13 %56 Lur_Iran + %44 Turk_Central_East @ 2,370506
14 %80 Kurd_Kurmanji + %20 Turk_South @ 2,373964
15 %81 Kurd_Kurmanji + %19 Turk_Central_Black_Sea @ 2,397602
16 %86 Kurd_Kurmanji + %14 Turk_Southwest @ 2,404118
17 %97 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Mongol_Khalka @ 2,409623
18 %3 Kalmyk + %97 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,410327
19 %57 Lur_Iran + %43 Turk_South @ 2,413049
20 %4 Altai + %96 Kurd_Kurmanji @ 2,416076


Using 3 population approximation:
1 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Greek_Cyprus @ 1,340797
2 %88 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %9 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,344367
3 %3 Evenk + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Greek_Cyprus @ 1,361035
4 %3 Evenk + %88 Kurd_Kurmanji + %9 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,361507
5 %3 Dolgan + %88 Kurd_Kurmanji + %9 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,369057
6 %3 Dolgan + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Greek_Cyprus @ 1,38928
7 %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %5 Hattian_Anatolia_BA @ 1,391131
8 %3 Evenk + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Hattian_Anatolia_BA @ 1,398713
9 %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %5 Sephardic_Jew @ 1,402766
10 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Turk_Cyprus + %3 Yakut @ 1,40501
11 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Turk_Cyprus @ 1,40501
12 %3 Dolgan + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Hattian_Anatolia_BA @ 1,421937
13 %3 Evenk + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Sephardic_Jew @ 1,422365
14 %3 Evenk + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Turk_Cyprus @ 1,431476
15 %3 Dolgan + %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %7 Turk_Cyprus @ 1,463384
16 %3 Dolgan + %92 Kurd_Kurmanji + %5 Sephardic_Jew @ 1,46734
17 %87 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Nenet + %10 Arab_Alawite_Turkey @ 1,497142
18 %91 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %6 Greek_Crete @ 1,527282
19 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Lebanese @ 1,533675
20 %90 Kurd_Kurmanji + %3 Yakut + %7 Greek_Cappadocia @ 1,538933

You seem to have some Turkic ancestry. Which province are you from? I would say Kahramanmaraş, I've seen Kurds with similar results from that province.

Maras/Malatya Kurds have Circassian mixture from all the results I have seen mine,mother,cousin and gedmatch relatives, with some having Turkish mixture as well. His Caucasian score is lower and has higher South West Asian, where Maras Kurds have higher Caucasian and lower SWA compared to the average Kurd.

StarDS9
11-18-2018, 11:39 PM
Did you include west armenians in the modellings? Considering that most of my kurmanji and zaza matches have west armenian matches, I am sure there is some of this admixture among the kurds of the region but I don't know how much. (speaking of me, I have armenian matches who have origins from malatya and harput which make perfectly sense)

What I wonder is, whether kurmanji already were similar to iranian azeris and have same origin, or whether kurmanji and zaza are mainly central/western iranian + pre-kurdish population of the region.

I think it is a mystery of how Kurmanji speakers got so large in Turkey, its like 15+ million. Question is how did this number get so large? from ancient sources I have read East Anatolia was mostly Armenian and Assyrian. Kurmanji is most similar to Sorani and they are mostly located in North Iraq and Kurdisan Province Iran. If I had make the best guess, Kurmanji speakers were likely originaly located in Urmia and further south and expanded north west during or after the Sassanids and Kurdified/mixed with Anatolians. Zaza speakers also likely originated somewhere in North Iran as well.

Also how similar is the Old Iranic Azeri language to Kurmanji? From some wiki entries I have seen, it seems to be more similar to Zazaki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azeri_language

DMXX
11-19-2018, 12:50 AM
Also how similar is the Old Iranic Azeri language to Kurmanji?

There's a complex set of isoglosses between all of the NW Iranic languages which are either exclusive or inclusive. For example, gender retention is kept in Kurmanji (this is typical of NW Iranic) but lost in Sorani and Gorani (alongside most other W Iranic languages). The Kurdish languages also lack the initial (f)r/(x)r>(h)r consonant shift that's seen in the others (except for Balochi). Kurdish does share a set of enclitics with other NW Iranic languages that appears to have been modified in Persian, which is an archaism going back to ancient times, though Kurmanji shares an absence of personal enclitics with Old Azeri.

There's the curious division between the Iranian languages WRT noun-adjective typologies, which defies the conventional split of Iranian languages into NW, SW and E. Linguists have identified that the Kurdish languages share the same morphology with Persian, whereas all the other NW Iranian languages (plus an isolated, Turkified variant of Persian called "Tati Persian" spoken in the Republic of Azerbaijan) belong to another.

Vocabulary comparisons between Old Azeri and Kurmanji won't be especially useful, as the majority of the West Iranian languages have conserved a large number of core terms. Kurmanji and Old Azeri look about as similar to me side-to-side as any one of them does to Gilaki or Mazandarani. Depending on the core lexical terms, one could gerrymander the lists to make any particular modern NW Iranic language look more or less distant to Old Azeri or Parthian relative to the others.

Old Azeri is probably closer to Kurmanji than it is to Sorani or Gorani due to more shared isoglosses, but I haven't seen any linguists determining it is particularly close. There was a field expedition of rural Azerbaijan province in Iran around the 1960's that found a "sharp demarcation" linguistically between the continuous areas where relatives of Talysh and Tati exist (the "Pahlavan" dialects) with Kurdish. Talysh, Tati and those dialects are all variously linked to Old Azeri by linguists.

On that basis, I suppose the conclusion would be "not particularly close for a NW Iranian language based on what the linguists currently know".

StarDS9
11-27-2018, 11:15 PM
There's a complex set of isoglosses between all of the NW Iranic languages which are either exclusive or inclusive. For example, gender retention is kept in Kurmanji (this is typical of NW Iranic) but lost in Sorani and Gorani (alongside most other W Iranic languages). The Kurdish languages also lack the initial (f)r/(x)r>(h)r consonant shift that's seen in the others (except for Balochi). Kurdish does share a set of enclitics with other NW Iranic languages that appears to have been modified in Persian, which is an archaism going back to ancient times, though Kurmanji shares an absence of personal enclitics with Old Azeri.

There's the curious division between the Iranian languages WRT noun-adjective typologies, which defies the conventional split of Iranian languages into NW, SW and E. Linguists have identified that the Kurdish languages share the same morphology with Persian, whereas all the other NW Iranian languages (plus an isolated, Turkified variant of Persian called "Tati Persian" spoken in the Republic of Azerbaijan) belong to another.

Vocabulary comparisons between Old Azeri and Kurmanji won't be especially useful, as the majority of the West Iranian languages have conserved a large number of core terms. Kurmanji and Old Azeri look about as similar to me side-to-side as any one of them does to Gilaki or Mazandarani. Depending on the core lexical terms, one could gerrymander the lists to make any particular modern NW Iranic language look more or less distant to Old Azeri or Parthian relative to the others.

Old Azeri is probably closer to Kurmanji than it is to Sorani or Gorani due to more shared isoglosses, but I haven't seen any linguists determining it is particularly close. There was a field expedition of rural Azerbaijan province in Iran around the 1960's that found a "sharp demarcation" linguistically between the continuous areas where relatives of Talysh and Tati exist (the "Pahlavan" dialects) with Kurdish. Talysh, Tati and those dialects are all variously linked to Old Azeri by linguists.

On that basis, I suppose the conclusion would be "not particularly close for a NW Iranian language based on what the linguists currently know".

Kurmanji along with Zazaki both have also retained "I" Ez . Where as Sorani and Gorani just use Min/Man just like Persian does.

I have also noticed that Kurmanji has dropped "d" in some word endings like Kirin instead of Kirdin(Sorani) and Mirin instead of Mirdin(Sorani) Xwarin instead of Xwardin(Sorani). Where as Zazaki has retained the "d" like Sorani and Gorani.

Kurmanji has essentially shortened words compared to other Kurdish languages and Persian. Another example Dot for Daughter instead of Dokhtar and Bira instead of Biradar.

Kurd
12-04-2018, 10:47 PM
I was completely wrong. "rt" seem to be present in central Iranian dialects and balochi.

hawramani/gorani: wardey
zazaki:warden/wardish

balochi: wrt-

kurmanci: xwarin/xrin/xrtin

gaz. χer-/χort
Hamedan. xortn/xr-
Isfahan. xortn/xer-
Nain. xrte/xur
Semnan. xurt/-xur
Khunsari. χur- , χor-/χurt
Sangesar. -χrt-

to count:

kurmanji: hjmartin/jmartin

Gaz. šmr-/šmrt , išmrt ,
Khunsari. (t)išmr- , šmr-/išmurt
Anarak. -išumort


Here is a table of some of the words you mentioned. Since I speak all the languages in the table I can better pick up on the similarities and differences than academics who speak 1 or 2 of the languages but not all 4

I noticed a little difference between some of the Kurmanji words you posted which I assume is Kurmanji in Turkey and the Iraqi ones except in Iraq they also say zhmaartin and xhwarin



Kurdi (Kurmanji-Iraq)
Pashto (southern)
Urdu
English


Xwarin
Xwarrang/Xuraak/Da Xwarralo shayaan/Dodai
Khana/Xuraak
Food


Za Xurram
As tXom
Main khata hoon
I eat


Seend tXom
Qasam Xurram
Qasam khata hoom
I swear


Xosh
Xozh / Xwazha
Mazedaar
tasty/sweet


Zhmera
Shmera
Ginno
Count (to order)

StarDS9
12-04-2018, 11:15 PM
kurmanji hasn't dropped "d", it droppped "t" in some words and in some words its still preserved.

kurmanji "veshartin, guhertin, bjartin" is "shardinewe, gorran, bjardin" in sorani. the word for eating is still pronounced sometimes as "xartin" in some dialects. (t is pronounced unaspirated)

this is actually archaism and existed in parthian. in all other languages except kurmanji, "rt" changed to "rd".

also I don't know why kurmanj write "bira", its not pronounced that way but "bra". (bra, brat, brang in different dialects)

I made assumption based on that Gorani,Sorani,Zazaki all have the rd like Persian has. If it is the case that Kurmanji had rt and other Kurdish languages shifted to rt>rd , makes me confused as to why they did and Kurmanji did not.

StarDS9
12-04-2018, 11:38 PM
I was completely wrong. "rt" seem to be present in central Iranian dialects and balochi.

hawramani/gorani: wardey
zazaki:warden/wardish

balochi: wrt-

kurmanci: xwarin/xrin/xrtin

gaz. χer-/χort
Hamedan. xortn/xr-
Isfahan. xortn/xer-
Nain. xrte/xur
Semnan. xurt/-xur
Khunsari. χur- , χor-/χurt
Sangesar. -χrt-

to count:

kurmanji: hjmartin/jmartin

Gaz. šmr-/šmrt , išmrt ,
Khunsari. (t)išmr- , šmr-/išmurt
Anarak. -išumort

rt was present in Old Persian but shifted to rd in Middle-Persian. From the Iranian Language Comparison table on Wikipedia, it seems Middle-Persian was influenced by Parthian, Mard(Parthian) Martiya(Old Persian) Bradar(Parthian) Bratar(Old Persian)

StarDS9
01-21-2019, 02:44 PM
This may be the explanation:
https://www.reddit.com/r/kurdistan/comments/6vc626/gorani_influence_on_central_kurdish_substratum_or/

Thanks, the paper does not mention anything that is already known, it is clear that Sorani has Gorani influence. And that Zaza and Gorani are closesly related. It also seems to go into maybe Zaza-Goran came from south of caspien or that Kurmanji-Sorani who are the invaders but then dismisses as been unlikely.