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andyouare
10-19-2018, 03:09 PM
I got tested with MyHeritage and was later told on another forum that a Jewish score on MyHeritage is not unusual for Levantines, but I'd like a second opinion on the GEDmatch results with the Jewish percentages in them. I can't post links so here are my MyHeritage results:

Middle Eastern - 35.9%
Mizrahi Jewish - 16.1%
West Asian - 5.4%
South Asian 2.1%
Cenral Asian - 1.3%
Greek - 16.8%
Italian - 2.9%
Ashkenazi - 2.8%
North African - 13.8%
Nigerian - 2.9%

About myself: I am part of the Arab minority in Israel, and my close family is Muslim. My great-great-grandmother on my Dad's side was a Christian who converted to Islam. Don't know anything about the rest of my family tree. I have 2000 matches on GEDmatch, the closest (about 20) of which have Arab names, whilst the rest are of obvious other ethnicities including Jewish (I didn't try contacting any of them as I can currently only trace my family tree up to 4 or 5 generations, which wouldn't be of much help).

Here are some of my GEDmatch results:
MDLP K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 36.43
2 Near_East 17.80
3 European_Early_Farmers 14.35
4 South_Central_Asian 12.23
5 North_African 8.53
6 South_Indian 2.87
7 East_African 2.84
8 East_Siberian 1.29


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Syrian_Jew_ [at] 6.659384
2 Lebanese_ [at] 7.773434
3 Lebanese_Muslim_ [at] 8.100311
4 Muslim_Arabs_Israel_ [at] 9.764081
5 Samaritian_ [at] 10.490923
6 Syrian_ [at] 11.072806
7 Iraqi_Chaldean_ [at] 11.113378
8 Palestinian_ [at] 11.247584
9 Turk_Adana_ [at] 11.473163
10 Jordanian_ [at] 11.594125
11 Assyrian_Iraqi_ [at] 11.908371
12 Sephardic_Jew_ [at] 12.164774
13 Cypriot_ [at] 12.258148
14 Lebanese_Druze_ [at] 12.373976
15 Iraki_ [at] 12.449074
16 Turk_Jew_ [at] 12.576925
17 Iraqi_Mandean_ [at] 12.890561
18 Lebanese_Christian_ [at] 13.145858
19 Iraqi_Jew_ [at] 13.172909
20 Tunisian_Jew_ [at] 13.184107

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Kurd_Jew_ +50% Libyan_Jew_ [at] 4.532774


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cypriot_ +25% Egyptian_Tanta_ +25% Iranian_ [at] 3.697257

Eurogenes K13 Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 37.17
2 West_Asian 20.76
3 West_Med 15.75
4 Red_Sea 12.88
5 Northeast_African 3.83
6 South_Asian 3.68
7 North_Atlantic 1.94
8 East_Asian 1.59
9 Sub-Saharan 1.46
10 Baltic 0.93

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Syrian 3.39
2 Lebanese_Muslim 5.29
3 Jordanian 7.35
4 Samaritan 8.37
5 Palestinian 9.05
6 Cyprian 9.19
7 Lebanese_Christian 9.79
8 Bedouin 11.3
9 Kurdish_Jewish 11.49
10 Iranian_Jewish 12
11 Lebanese_Druze 12.45
12 Libyan_Jewish 12.56
13 Tunisian_Jewish 12.66
14 Assyrian 12.89
15 Sephardic_Jewish 15.24
16 Georgian_Jewish 15.53
17 Turkish 15.66
18 Algerian_Jewish 15.73
19 Italian_Jewish 16.99
20 Egyptian 17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.4% Kurdish_Jewish + 29.6% Moroccan [at] 2.56
2 96.1% Syrian + 3.9% Sardinian [at] 2.87
3 94.8% Syrian + 5.2% Moroccan [at] 3.06
4 98.6% Syrian + 1.4% Dai [at] 3.07
5 98.4% Syrian + 1.6% Cambodian [at] 3.08
6 98.5% Syrian + 1.5% Vietnamese [at] 3.08
7 98.5% Syrian + 1.5% Lahu [at] 3.09
8 98.4% Syrian + 1.6% Malay [at] 3.09
9 98.6% Syrian + 1.4% She [at] 3.1
10 98.6% Syrian + 1.4% Miaozu [at] 3.1
11 98.6% Syrian + 1.4% Tujia [at] 3.1
12 98.2% Syrian + 1.8% Tibeto-Burman_Burmese [at] 3.11
13 98.5% Syrian + 1.5% Yizu [at] 3.14
14 98.5% Syrian + 1.5% Naxi [at] 3.14
15 95.5% Syrian + 4.5% Mozabite_Berber [at] 3.15
16 92.6% Syrian + 7.4% Algerian_Jewish [at] 3.15
17 98.6% Syrian + 1.4% Japanese [at] 3.17
18 98.5% Syrian + 1.5% Tu [at] 3.17
19 95.3% Syrian + 4.7% Tunisian [at] 3.18
20 88.1% Syrian + 11.9% Cyprian [at] 3.18



Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 37.17
2 West_Asian 20.76
3 West_Med 15.75
4 Red_Sea 12.88
5 Northeast_African 3.83
6 South_Asian 3.68
7 North_Atlantic 1.95
8 East_Asian 1.59
9 Sub-Saharan 1.46


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Syrian [at] 3.599342
2 Lebanese_Muslim [at] 5.804161
3 Jordanian [at] 7.933835
4 Samaritan [at] 9.539104
5 Cyprian [at] 9.920276
6 Palestinian [at] 10.236712
7 Lebanese_Christian [at] 11.108497
8 Bedouin [at] 12.250223
9 Kurdish_Jewish [at] 12.908946
10 Iranian_Jewish [at] 13.423899
11 Lebanese_Druze [at] 14.075435
12 Libyan_Jewish [at] 14.364171
13 Assyrian [at] 14.434152
14 Tunisian_Jewish [at] 14.519131
15 Sephardic_Jewish [at] 17.320784
16 Turkish [at] 17.452847
17 Georgian_Jewish [at] 17.580265
18 Algerian_Jewish [at] 17.853868
19 Egyptian [at] 18.096497
20 Italian_Jewish [at] 19.269295

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Syrian +50% Syrian [at] 3.599342


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moroccan +25% Syrian [at] 2.737257


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Georgian_Jewish + Iranian_Jewish + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 2.475870
2 Georgian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 2.586026
3 Assyrian + Iranian_Jewish + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 2.663227
4 Assyrian + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 2.692262
5 Iranian + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan [at] 2.724387
6 Kurdish_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Syrian [at] 2.737257
7 Georgian_Jewish + Iranian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan [at] 2.809510
8 Assyrian + Assyrian + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 2.833431
9 Kurdish_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + Moroccan [at] 2.884545
10 Assyrian + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Syrian [at] 2.886224
11 Iranian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Syrian [at] 2.890807
12 Georgian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan [at] 2.891293
13 Assyrian + Iranian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan [at] 2.900908
14 Assyrian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan [at] 2.916861
15 Iranian + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 2.921981
16 Kurdish + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan [at] 2.926814
17 Kurdish + Lebanese_Christian + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 3.002359
18 Iranian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + Moroccan [at] 3.019059
19 Iranian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 3.020729
20 Kurdish_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Moroccan + Samaritan [at] 3.032532

Dodecad V3 Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 31.21
2 Mediterranean 27.97
3 Southwest_Asian 20.23
4 West_European 4.16
5 East_African 4.01
6 South_Asian 3.98
7 Northwest_African 3.82
8 Neo_African 1.42
9 East_European 1.2
10 Southeast_Asian 1.12
11 Palaeo_African 0.6
12 Northeast_Asian 0.3

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Lebanese (Behar) 5.49
2 Palestinian (HGDP) 5.75
3 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 8.14
4 Jordanians_19 (Behar) 8.96
5 Samaritians (Behar) 9.03
6 Syrians (Behar) 9.52
7 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 9.62
8 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 9.82
9 Druze (HGDP) 10.18
10 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 10.25
11 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 12.04
12 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.14
13 Kurd (Xing) 14.15
14 Egypt (Henn) 14.95
15 Turkish (Dodecad) 15.6
16 Kurd (Dodecad) 15.98
17 Cypriots (Behar) 16.08
18 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 17.75
19 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 17.9
20 Assyrian (Dodecad) 18.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.6% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) + 44.4% Egypt (Henn) [at] 2.78
2 61.7% Iranian_Jews (Behar) + 38.3% Egypt (Henn) [at] 3.2
3 66.4% Palestinian (HGDP) + 33.6% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) [at] 3.35
4 76.6% Palestinian (HGDP) + 23.4% Turkish (Dodecad) [at] 3.38
5 73.3% Iranian_Jews (Behar) + 26.7% Libya (Henn) [at] 3.41
6 66.4% Georgia_Jews (Behar) + 33.6% Egypt (Henn) [at] 3.47
7 61.3% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Egypt (Henn) [at] 3.52
8 68.2% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) + 31.8% Libya (Henn) [at] 3.6
9 75.7% Palestinian (HGDP) + 24.3% Kurd (Xing) [at] 3.72
10 78.2% Iranian_Jews (Behar) + 21.8% Algeria (Henn) [at] 3.73
11 78.2% Palestinian (HGDP) + 21.8% Kurd (Dodecad) [at] 3.79
12 91.3% Lebanese (Behar) + 8.7% Pathan (HGDP) [at] 3.79
13 77% Iraq_Jews (Behar) + 23% Algeria (Henn) [at] 3.79
14 81.1% Palestinian (HGDP) + 18.9% Turks (Behar) [at] 3.85
15 90.7% Palestinian (HGDP) + 9.3% Pathan (HGDP) [at] 3.85
16 92.2% Lebanese (Behar) + 7.8% Burusho (HGDP) [at] 3.85
17 60.3% Iraq_Jews (Behar) + 39.7% Egypt (Henn) [at] 3.87
18 79.4% Iranian_Jews (Behar) + 20.6% Morocco_N (Henn) [at] 3.91
19 92.4% Lebanese (Behar) + 7.6% Pakistani (Xing) [at] 3.92
20 93.5% Lebanese (Behar) + 6.5% Vaish (Reich) [at] 3.92


Dodecad V3 4-Ancestors Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 31.21
2 Mediterranean 27.97
3 Southwest_Asian 20.23
4 West_European 4.16
5 East_African 4.01
6 South_Asian 3.98
7 Northwest_African 3.82
8 Neo_African 1.42
9 East_European 1.20
10 Southeast_Asian 1.12


Finished reading population data. 227 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Lebanese_Behar [at] 6.051296
2 Palestinian_HGDP [at] 6.190341
3 Georgia_Jews_Behar [at] 9.075993
4 Jordanians_19_Behar [at] 9.893501
5 Samaritians_Behar [at] 9.907512
6 Syrians_Behar [at] 10.520269
7 Iranian_Jews_Behar [at] 10.782315
8 Uzbekistan_Jews_Behar [at] 10.865858
9 Druze_HGDP [at] 11.437856
10 Iraq_Jews_Behar [at] 11.507357
11 Azerbaijan_Jews_Behar [at] 13.577746
12 Morocco_Jews_Behar [at] 15.754265
13 Kurd_Xing [at] 15.762714
14 Egypt_Henn [at] 16.241209
15 Turkish_Dodecad [at] 17.293442
16 Cypriots_Behar [at] 17.627031
17 Kurd_Dodecad [at] 17.769371
18 Sephardic_Jews_Behar [at] 19.603155
19 Ashkenazi_Dodecad [at] 19.905909
20 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar [at] 20.693220

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Azerbaijan_Jews_Behar +50% Egypt_Henn [at] 3.160144


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Iranian_Jews_Behar +25% Morocco_Jews_Behar +25% Egypt_Henn [at] 1.779255

mildlycurly
10-19-2018, 08:58 PM
Given the area you're from I'd say you have Jewish ancestry but it's distant. Many Jews converted to Islam from the 7th century onwards. However, most of the Mizrahi and Ashkenazi you're getting is based on overlap between Arab and Jewish populations.

andyouare
10-19-2018, 09:32 PM
Given the area you're from I'd say you have Jewish ancestry but it's distant. Many Jews converted to Islam from the 7th century onwards. However, most of the Mizrahi and Ashkenazi you're getting is based on overlap between Arab and Jewish populations.

Yup it's already clear to me that any Jewish ancestry would be quite distant as the over thousand matches I got are all in the 7 to 15 cM region

mildlycurly
10-19-2018, 10:16 PM
Yup it's already clear to me that any Jewish ancestry would be quite distant as the over thousand matches I got are all in the 7 to 15 cM region

That and there's pedigree collapse among Ashkenazi Jews in particular. I share enough cM with some of my Jewish matches on GEDmatch to indicate we'd be third cousins in some instances, which is clearly not true given all my ancestors in the last five generations or so were Christian and my Jewish component generally doesn't show up on tests. So if you've got Jewish ancestry it's waaaaaaaaaay back.

Agamemnon
10-19-2018, 10:46 PM
With such results, it's safe to say that most of your ancestry is derived from the region's native pre-Arab population (essentially Judean, Israelite, Phoenician and Aramean). Hence the Jewish matches. My father (Ashkenazi and Krymchak) also shares identical segments with non-Jewish Syrian and Palestinian (presumably Muslim) matches, as well as several Samaritan ones, generally in the 7-9cM range, this is unlikely to be recent so this tends to go both ways really.

Where in Israel is your family from exactly? This might prove useful in narrowing down the potential sources of non-Arabian ancestry. What about your uniparental markers (Y-DNA and mtDNA)?

andyouare
10-19-2018, 11:21 PM
With such results, it's safe to say that most of your ancestry is derived from the region's native pre-Arab population (essentially Judean, Israelite, Phoenician and Aramean). Hence the Jewish matches. My father (Ashkenazi and Krymchak) also shares identical segments with non-Jewish Syrian and Palestinian (presumably Muslim) matches, as well as several Samaritan ones, generally in the 7-9cM range, this is unlikely to be recent so this tends to go both ways really.

Where in Israel is your family from exactly? This might prove useful in narrowing down the potential sources of non-Arabian ancestry. What about your uniparental markers (Y-DNA and mtDNA)?

Galilee, or did you wanna know the specific town(s)?
As for Y-DNA and mtDNA, MyHeritage doesn't provide those, sadly. What info could be derived from that?

Agamemnon
10-19-2018, 11:42 PM
Galilee, or did you wanna know the specific town(s)?
As for Y-DNA and mtDNA, MyHeritage doesn't provide those, sadly. What info could be derived from that?

The Galilee was a fairly cosmopolitan area, during the Iron I and Iron II phases it was a nexus where a predominantly Israelite and Phoenician population cohabitated with the Arameans (who often raided and settled in the Galilee). It continued to be a fairly cosmopolitan place, Sepphoris is a pretty good example of that. The Hasmoneans conquered the Galilee at the end of the 2nd century BCE and forcibly converted the Itureans (who were probably of Aramean stock) to Judaism, henceforth the Galilee became a major Jewish center so well that even after the devastating Jewish-Roman wars some parts of the Galilee retained a Jewish majority, this is where the Jerusalem Talmud originated.

Knowing the specific town could be useful, what would be even more useful would be knowing your specific tribal affiliation (if you do know about it). In turn, this is where Y-DNA testing comes into play, as you could be of Arabian descent on your paternal line for instance, in which case your paternal lineage could prove helpful in validating or invalidating your tribal affiliation.

andyouare
10-20-2018, 01:32 AM
The Galilee was a fairly cosmopolitan area, during the Iron I and Iron II phases it was a nexus where a predominantly Israelite and Phoenician population cohabitated with the Arameans (who often raided and settled in the Galilee). It continued to be a fairly cosmopolitan place, Sepphoris is a pretty good example of that. The Hasmoneans conquered the Galilee at the end of the 2nd century BCE and forcibly converted the Itureans (who were probably of Aramean stock) to Judaism, henceforth the Galilee became a major Jewish center so well that even after the devastating Jewish-Roman wars some parts of the Galilee retained a Jewish majority, this is where the Jerusalem Talmud originated.

Knowing the specific town could be useful, what would be even more useful would be knowing your specific tribal affiliation (if you do know about it). In turn, this is where Y-DNA testing comes into play, as you could be of Arabian descent on your paternal line for instance, in which case your paternal lineage could prove helpful in validating or invalidating your tribal affiliation.

I have to say, I'm at loss right now because outside the Bedouin community tribes are not a thing here so I do not know what you're referring to. Do you live/have you ever lived in Israel?

The standard 23andme test kit includes a Y-DNA test, correct? I've been considering doing that.

As for the specific towns, I could PM you them if you'd like?

hartaisarlag
10-20-2018, 02:51 AM
The Galilee was a fairly cosmopolitan area, during the Iron I and Iron II phases it was a nexus where a predominantly Israelite and Phoenician population cohabitated with the Arameans (who often raided and settled in the Galilee). It continued to be a fairly cosmopolitan place, Sepphoris is a pretty good example of that. The Hasmoneans conquered the Galilee at the end of the 2nd century BCE and forcibly converted the Itureans (who were probably of Aramean stock) to Judaism, henceforth the Galilee became a major Jewish center so well that even after the devastating Jewish-Roman wars some parts of the Galilee retained a Jewish majority, this is where the Jerusalem Talmud originated.

Knowing the specific town could be useful, what would be even more useful would be knowing your specific tribal affiliation (if you do know about it). In turn, this is where Y-DNA testing comes into play, as you could be of Arabian descent on your paternal line for instance, in which case your paternal lineage could prove helpful in validating or invalidating your tribal affiliation.

Yeah, there’s (practically) continuity all the way through the Ottoman period as well. I think the (Upper?) Galilee might’ve been the only part of the region with a rural Jewish population in the 2nd millennium CE. And considering the neverending, albeit small, stream of Diaspora pilgrims, wouldn’t surprise me if some Galilean Arabs had minor Sephardi or Ashkenazi ancestry.

K33
10-20-2018, 06:49 AM
Yeah, there’s (practically) continuity all the way through the Ottoman period as well. I think the (Upper?) Galilee might’ve been the only part of the region with a rural Jewish population in the 2nd millennium CE. And considering the neverending, albeit small, stream of Diaspora pilgrims, wouldn’t surprise me if some Galilean Arabs had minor Sephardi or Ashkenazi ancestry.

Estimates are shaky, but I have heard that around half of all the Jews living in pre-Zionist Palestine/Israel lived in the Galilee.

The Earthquake of 1837 totally rocked rocked Galilee, and many Galilean Jews afterwards moved to Jerusalem.

Agamemnon
10-20-2018, 11:41 AM
I have to say, I'm at loss right now because outside the Bedouin community tribes are not a thing here so I do not know what you're referring to. Do you live/have you ever lived in Israel?

The standard 23andme test kit includes a Y-DNA test, correct? I've been considering doing that.

As for the specific towns, I could PM you them if you'd like?

So you do not have any tribal affiliation? There actually is such a thing as tribal affiliation among the Arab inhabitants of the Galilee, for instance the Qays-Yamani dichotomy is pervasive in this region. And no, I am not talking about the Bedouins here. I have been to Israel (including the Galilee), haven't lived there though.

Yes, 23andMe does include Y-DNA and mtDNA testing, though if you're interested Yseq and FTDNA would probably better options at this stage.

Sure thing :)


Yeah, there’s (practically) continuity all the way through the Ottoman period as well. I think the (Upper?) Galilee might’ve been the only part of the region with a rural Jewish population in the 2nd millennium CE. And considering the neverending, albeit small, stream of Diaspora pilgrims, wouldn’t surprise me if some Galilean Arabs had minor Sephardi or Ashkenazi ancestry.

That's not impossible, but considering how religious the different waves of olim were, it does strike me as somewhat unlikely.

andyouare
10-20-2018, 05:13 PM
So you do not have any tribal affiliation? There actually is such a thing as tribal affiliation among the Arab inhabitants of the Galilee, for instance the Qays-Yamani dichotomy is pervasive in this region. And no, I am not talking about the Bedouins here. I have been to Israel (including the Galilee), haven't lived there though.

Yes, 23andMe does include Y-DNA and mtDNA testing, though if you're interested Yseq and FTDNA would probably better options at this stage.

Sure thing :)



That's not impossible, but considering how religious the different waves of olim were, it does strike me as somewhat unlikely.

I can't PM you because I don't have enough posts. I wonder if it'll let me respond if you PM me first?

andyouare
11-04-2018, 11:39 AM
Someone posted another detailed response here before the forum was reset to a previous version, would you mind revealing yourself? :)

curiousDNAguy12
11-10-2018, 11:05 PM
I think it's just common origins of the two groups. For example, I submitted my raw data to a Spanish site with specific regional populations, and I got -

18,95% Israeli Jews; 18,20% Extremadura; 15,35% Lebanese Christian;12,20% Cyprus; 11,85 Dodecanese Greek Islands; 5,25% Nasiriyah Mandeans; 5,05% Sicily Messina; 4,15% Romania Nord Vest; 2,20% Lebanon; 2,20% Syria Druze; 1,30% Campania; 0,70% Israel Druze; 0,70% Chechnya; 0,50% Palestine; 0,45% Finland Karelia; 0,45% Emilia Romagna; 0,30% Sicily Catania; 0,20% Apulia.

But I don't have any Lebanese ancestry...it's just kind of indistinguishable in part

andyouare
11-12-2018, 11:58 PM
So you do not have any tribal affiliation? There actually is such a thing as tribal affiliation among the Arab inhabitants of the Galilee, for instance the Qays-Yamani dichotomy is pervasive in this region. And no, I am not talking about the Bedouins here. I have been to Israel (including the Galilee), haven't lived there though.

Yes, 23andMe does include Y-DNA and mtDNA testing, though if you're interested Yseq and FTDNA would probably better options at this stage.

Sure thing :)



That's not impossible, but considering how religious the different waves of olim were, it does strike me as somewhat unlikely.

Your inbox is full :(

andyouare
12-02-2018, 03:09 PM
I uploaded my raw dna data to promethease and from the looks of it I appear to belong to haplogroup J2. Does this reveal anything?