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Scat
11-10-2018, 10:37 PM
Who can tell smthing about it, how it possible in so far regions. Now we know that 4% of Tatars have u106, and specifically Z2. 4.5% udmurts and 1.5% Mordvins also have u106 unknown subclades. Also, a few percent of u106 is in Turkmen and Uzbeks. Perhaps quite a bit there and the Kazakhs. Who what thinks about this

Wing Genealogist
11-11-2018, 11:16 AM
I am curious to know where you are getting these figures from. I try to collect such information for U106 and have not seen these before. I would admit to "blindly" concentrating on Western Europe.

U106 is certainly large enough, and old enough, to have traveled far and wide.

Scat
11-11-2018, 02:48 PM
well, I guess I cheated a little. I just had a desire to post a spectacular opening speech, similar to the sensational news. In any case, Tatars actually have 4% U106 with SNP markers. As for Udmurts and Mordvin, I don’t presume to judge that they were snps, but the tables show percentages and they really are. In Turkmen, it was due to predictors. They of course basically show u-152. But I saw one with u106. In any case, Turkmen generally have a major haplogroup r1b, and half of them are just such European subclades. As for Uzbeks and Kazakhs, this is not even predictor information, but an assumption. Although 1 Uzbek (by father) definitely has u106 - it's just me. In any case, r1b among Uzbeks is 9–13%. Of these, 4-5% are considered at least m269. Why not assume that at least 1% or 0.5% belong to l11 different branches

Scat
11-11-2018, 03:05 PM
I would admit to "blindly" concentrating on Western Europe.

.
The principles of the Tatars and Mordovians have long been shown on classic maps. But it is obvious that if you do not focus attention, you will not notice them on the map.

27061

DMXX
11-11-2018, 03:44 PM
I'm not aware of any U106 among the Turkmen.

I analysed some of the Central Asian R1b STRs from the early 00's a couple years ago (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2013/07/a-hidden-gem-in-central-asia-previously.html). Grugni et al. 2012 found ~4% of Iranian Turkmen belonged to R1b-L23* (no further downstream SNPs tested). Zhabagin et al. 2017 found between 0-5% of Transoxanian Central Asians were R1b-M269 (no further downstream SNPs tested).

The only known case of R1b-U106 from that part of the world in an academic paper I'm aware of is Di Cristafaro et al. 2013, which found a single sample in northern Iran (an R1b-U152 was found there too). The only R1b sample found among their Turkmen was L23*(xU106,U152).

Di Cristafaro's data indicates that pretty much all of the R1b found in modern Turkmen, Uzbeks and other populations in the region are L23*(xU106,U152), which aligns with populations found further west (Iranians, Kurds, Armenians, Azerbaijanis). Though it should be noted that R1b-M73 is also found at varying frequencies across the Eurasian heartland too.

Scat
11-24-2018, 03:27 PM
Uzbeks have l11 and by predictor this is exactly u-106
27257

DMXX
11-24-2018, 03:43 PM
Uzbeks have l11 and by predictor this is exactly u-106


Given how rare this subclade is in the region, it's best to appraise frequencies as fractions rather than percentages (particularly as the sample sizes aren't massive).

Karafet et al. 2015 indicates R1b-L11 has a frequency of 1/74. YFull has it at 1/176. (https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b-L11) As your chart indicates, a minority of Uzbek R1b belongs to L11.

The YFull Uzbek belongs to the Madjar tribe, which a previous study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19170200/) indicated could have ties to the Hungarian people (Magyars). Some strange bidirectional movement could hypothetically account for R1b-L11 among the Uzbek Madjars, but I'm not aware of any historical evidence supporting this and the paper finding this connection was only based on Y-STRs, so I'd assess this as a red herring.

Scat
11-24-2018, 03:44 PM
There is an old job in 2002 for Uzbeks, where there are un-typed ones. They are all represented simply as P-M45
A check on the predictor revealed the following:

uz-s100 P-M45 100%
According to the predictor, Q M346> Z780 67.2%

uz-s115 P-M45 100%
According to the predictor R1b U106> Z381> Z156 44.5% R1b U106 * 16.7%
uz-s91 P-M45 92%
According to the predictor, R1b Z2103> L584 50.3% R1b ZZ12> ZZ39 22.1%
uz-s110 R1b1b2-M269 86%
According to the predictor, R1b U152> L2 * 47.9% R1b U106> Z381> Z156 14.7%

uz-s113 R1a1a1 * -Unclustered-M417 * (xM458, L365) 86%
According to the predictor R1a, M458 Central Europe 78.8%

uz-s114 P-M45 85%
According to the predictor R1a M458 Central Europe 97%

uz-s112 R1a1a1 * -Unclustered-M417 * (xM458, L365) 84%
According to the predictor, R1a Z93> Z94> Z2123 42% R1a Z93> Z94> Z2124> YP413 14.3%
uz-s92 R1b-M343 52%
According to the predictor R1b U106 * 82.5%

U58 R1a1a1 * -Unclustered-M417 * (xM458, L365) 68%
According to the predictor, R1a Z93> Z94> Z2123 63% R1a Z93> Z94> Z2124> YP413 24%
U67 R1a1a1 * -Unclustered-M417 * (xM458, L365) 76%
According to the predictor, R1a Y2395> Z284> YP556 33.3% R1a Z93> Z94> Z2124> YP413 17.8%


U68 R1a1a1 * -Unclustered-M417 * (xM458, L365) 52%
According to the predictor, R1a Y2395> Z284> Z287 57.5% R1a Z93> Z94> Z2123 32.9%

As we see from these P-M45, there are 4 R1b results, of which 2 results, that is, half of all R1b - U106. 1 result is probably more than U152 according to the predictor, but the probability of U106 is also available !! And only 1 result Z2103. Thus, it may well be that u106 occupies a significant share among Uzbek R1b

Scat
11-24-2018, 03:55 PM
YFull has it at 1/176.
Well, give me 400$ and I will do bigY and will be sampling 2/177. Or it will not be considered? I mean, in Yfull, just 176 Uzbeks who did themselves bigY or was it a special job (with a scientifically based sample)?

DMXX
11-24-2018, 03:57 PM
There is an old job in 2002 for Uzbeks, where there are un-typed ones. They are all represented simply as P-M45


Zerjal et al., correct? They didn't genotype anywhere near a sufficient number of STR's for accurate SNP prediction.

Per Haber et al., none of the few Afghan Uzbek R1b's belonged to U106. Their R1b subclades are typical for the region (West-Central Asia, Iran inclusive).



Thus, it may well be that u106 occupies a significant share among Uzbek R1b

For the reasons outlined in this and the previous post, that isn't likely. It is there, but it comprises a minority of Uzbek R1b.

Combining the Karafet and YFull figures, you're looking at 2/250 Uzbeks who are R1b-L11+. That's less than 1%. There's more Y-DNA H in Uzbekistan than there is R1b-L11.

Is there a particular reason you're repeatedly advocating this perception that R1b-U106 is prominent in the region (it isn't)?



Well, give me 400$ and I will do bigY and will be sampling 2/177. Or it will not be considered? I mean, in Yfull, just 176 Uzbeks who did themselves bigY or was it a special job (with a scientifically based sample)?


That only 2/250 Uzbeks sampled with Y-SNP's so far (increases to 2/270 if we include Haber et al.) readily indicates the general picture.

[Edit]: I note your Y-DNA and your self-designation (Uzbek and Tatar), so there's obviously some special pleading on personal grounds going on here.

I'm afraid the data doesn't objectively demonstrate what you'd like it to.

Scat
11-24-2018, 04:12 PM
There's more Y-DNA H in Uzbekistan than there is R1b-L11.

It is very good that haplogroup H is among Uzbeks, and haplogroup L is among Afghan Uzbeks. Well, the R2 haplogroup is everywhere in Central Asia. Uzbeks and Indians are friends, I hope. I like it when South Asian components are found in Uzbeks.

But R1b among Uzbeks from 8.7 to 13% according to various data. And some of them -R1b L11. And I'm not sure that a very small part.


Is there a particular reason you're repeatedly advocating this perception that R1b-U106 is prominent in the region (it isn't)?


Well, firstly, I want to understand the proportions of subclades R1b among Uzbeks. Which of the R1b haplogroups Uzbeks major? Z2103 M73 or L11. A priori, it is considered that L11 is an outsider in this fight. But I'm not quite sure about that.
Secondly, the broader stance -L11 is considered a European haplogroup, Europe is considered a separate part of the world, sometimes forgetting in places that Asia is a single continent. But I would not like to discuss further in this direction, since this is a very slippery topic.

Scat
11-24-2018, 04:26 PM
I'm afraid the data doesn't objectively demonstrate what you'd like it to.
And yes, I want to add. I have nothing against the fact that L11 in general and U106 in particular will be very minor among Uzbeks. It just seems to me that this is not yet completely clear, because not so much research has been done. But if you, as a specialist, think that the picture is already quite clear, then well, I will accept your opinion as a specialist. Although inside I will continue to doubt and wait for more research.

DMXX
11-24-2018, 04:35 PM
But R1b among Uzbeks from 8.7 to 13% according to various data. And some of them -R1b L11. And I'm not sure that a very small part.


R1b-L11 is a minority of Uzbek R1b. That is what the the data from both YFull and the Y-SNP tested studies indicate so far.

The percentages could change (though it probably is 1-2% at best given our near-300 samples indicate this), but the bulk of Uzbek R1b belongs to branches which are more "Asian" than they are "European" (the L23* you see prominent in the Caucasus, Iran and West-Central Asia are largely undetermined subclades rather than being true para-subclades).



Well, firstly, I want to understand the proportions of subclades R1b among Uzbeks. Which of the R1b haplogroups Uzbeks major? Z2103 M73 or L11. A priori, it is considered that L11 is an outsider in this fight. But I'm not quite sure about that.
Secondly, the broader stance -L11 is considered a European haplogroup, Europe is considered a separate part of the world, sometimes forgetting in places that Asia is a single continent. But I would not like to discuss further in this direction, since this is a very slippery topic.


The oldest R1b-L11 we have comes from Bronze Age Europe (the Kurganised Bell Beakers and late Vucedol culture of Central Europe). That is deep within Europe. We probably will find L11 further to the east, but probably no further than the Samara bend IMO.

Hypotheticals are one thing, but the data we have right now doesn't indicate that R1b-L11 has any substantive presence in South-Central Asia.
That doesn't mean Uzbeks carry the same subclades as Afghans, non-Pamiri Tajiks or Iranians - It's pretty clear that Uzbeks and Kazakhs carry low frequencies of some very interesting subclades that are exceptionally rare further south and could be broadly described as being "European-related". I also suspect that will be the case with the Pamiris, but we haven't seen a proper sampling of them since Wells et al.

You aren't the only Central Asian with an unusual R-subclade; one of our moderators (khanabadoshi), who's largely of northern Pakistani heritage, carries an R1a subclade that is rare in Asia and is more typical of Balto-Slavs. Coincidentally - And this is the reason I mention him - Some Uzbeks have this subclade, too.



And yes, I want to add. I have nothing against the fact that L11 in general and U106 in particular will be very minor among Uzbeks. It just seems to me that this is not yet completely clear, because not so much research has been done. But if you, as a specialist, think that the picture is already quite clear, then well, I will accept your opinion as a specialist. Although inside I will continue to doubt and wait for more research.


Yes. To be clear, I'm validating your statement that there is L11 among Uzbeks, but disagree with the assertion that it comprises anything more than a minority of Uzbek R1b. I base that squarely on the Y-SNP confirmed Uzbek samples we have, which show a frequency of <1% overall and probably no more than 10% of Uzbek R1b (Haber + Karafet + YFull). We can be confident it won't be a substantial minority or majority of Uzbek R1b based on almost 300 samples, which most would consider to be reasonable in terms of representation. Feel free to expect a substantive change, but the consistently low percentage in different sample sets indicates that won't happen.

I'm a numbers guy and don't have any skin in the game WRT how "Asian" or "European" certain subclades could be construed to be, so my comments are purely academic rather than personal (though I'm clearly interested in the region given the auto-recall of the studies).

Scat
11-24-2018, 04:52 PM
ho's largely of northern Pakistani heritage, carries an R1a subclade that is rare in Asia and is more typical of Balto-Slavs.
As far as I know, TMRCA between Asian and European haplogroups R1a is about 4 thousand years ago, which is less than TMRCA between haplogroups R1b. According to the latest data, R1a among Uzbeks is 25-27%, so in Asia they are generally well represented

The percentages could change (though it probably is 1-2% at best given our near-300 samples indicate this), but the bulk of Uzbek R1b belongs to branches which are more "Asian" than they are "European"
Not sure that the M73 among Uzbeks far exceeds the L11. Among the Kazakhs, yes, surpasses. Z2103 probably more, you're right

DMXX
11-24-2018, 07:09 PM
As far as I know, TMRCA between Asian and European haplogroups R1a is about 4 thousand years ago, which is less than TMRCA between haplogroups R1b.


Doesn't have any real bearing on the discussion (your contention that R1b-L11 in Uzbeks may be more frequent than the 300-odd samples we have currently indicate).

The MRCA between R1b-M269 and M73 is much larger than between R1a-Z93 and Z280. Doesn't mean Uzbekistan is some sort of R1b "hub" given that.



Not sure that the M73 among Uzbeks far exceeds the L11. Among the Kazakhs, yes, surpasses. Z2103 probably more, you're right

The sum of M73, L23*, P297* and M269* exceeds L11 in not only the Uzbeks, but also the Turkmen, Iranians and all Afghans. The prior four subclades can be construed as being more typical of Asia than Europe.

That's what the data shows and what my earlier comment spelled out.

Scat
11-25-2018, 03:38 PM
Good day! Welcome again

. We probably will find L11 further to the east, but probably no further than the Samara bend IMO.

Of course! No one says otherwise. I did not think that Uzbekistan is the hub of R1 L11. The Volga-Don region, the South Urals, is the contact zone of Central Asia and Europe. Do not forget part of the Uzbeks are not autochthonous and came from the Volga region, Western Kazakhstan and the Southern Urals.

The sum of M73, L23*, P297* and M269* exceeds L11 in not only the Uzbeks, but also the Turkmen, Iranians and all Afghans. The prior four subclades can be construed as being more typical of Asia than Europe

You say absolutely the right things and do it carefully, but nevertheless I am confused by some hint of a Eurocentric accent. I understand that the grading of L11 against the rest of Asian-like may be quite appropriate and even somewhere more relevant, but nevertheless, according to official cladistics, R1 L11 is rather grouped with R1 L23 * together in R1 L23. Whereas TRMCA with R1 M269 * is much older, and the R1 M73 haplogroup is not included in the vast large haplogroup R1 M269 at all. That is, the more correct is not an isolationist approach in my humble opinion, but one where Europe is an integral part of Asia.

DMXX
11-26-2018, 12:46 AM
Do not forget part of the Uzbeks are not autochthonous and came from the Volga region, Western Kazakhstan and the Southern Urals.


That's implied in my series of responses, yes. A big chunk of their ancestry (alongside that of everyone else in the region) comes from there (hell, even Iranians and Kurds are in the 15-25% range for that type of ancestry).



You say absolutely the right things and do it carefully, but nevertheless I am confused by some hint of a Eurocentric accent. I understand that the grading of L11 against the rest of Asian-like may be quite appropriate and even somewhere more relevant, but nevertheless, according to official cladistics, R1 L11 is rather grouped with R1 L23 * together in R1 L23. Whereas TRMCA with R1 M269 * is much older, and the R1 M73 haplogroup is not included in the vast large haplogroup R1 M269 at all. That is, the more correct is not an isolationist approach in my humble opinion, but one where Europe is an integral part of Asia.

Y-DNA R1b-L11 was considered equivalent to P310 for several years (it's just a node downstream now and is equivalent to L151 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1b/)). YFull (same link) has the MRCA at 4.8kya (note that's coincidentally close to the division between R1a1a-Z93 and Z280, which you quite funnily cited as evidence against an earlier comment I made). Ergo, the italicised comment is incorrect.

R1b-L11 should not be grouped alongside L23*, as the latter is approx. 1kya older. L11* may be depending on the circumstance, but we aren't discussing the subclades or characteristic of Uzbek L11 currently, so this is a tangent (or distraction, depending on the viewpoint).

R1b-L11 is generally considered a "European" subclade of R1b because all of the current aDNA thus far indicates it arose in Europe (defined as the territory west of the Urals) and the majority of the people who carry it are Europeans. Debate concerning how the European peninsula is oriented WRT Asia is both semantic and tangential.

Please avoid openly speculating about any Eurocentrism on my part (i.e. personalising the discussion) - It's a subjective distraction (and against our rules).

Scat
11-26-2018, 11:20 AM
R1b-L11 should not be grouped alongside L23*, as the latter is approx. 1kya older
but this is closer than the distance between l23 * and M73 for example, which you summarize as a counterweight to l11

Y-DNA R1b-L11 was considered equivalent to P310 for several years (it's just a node downstream now and is equivalent to L151).

is correct downward L51 -L52-L11-P310?

which you quite funnily cited as evidence against an earlier comment I made).

No, I guess I was misunderstood. I abstract more from our subject matter in that post and this is more of my offtopic on the topic of R1a, than proof of my position on this topic. I'm not that funny anyway

Scat
12-03-2018, 02:08 PM
Today I discovered another interesting point, which inclines me to the fact that not everything is so simple with the proportions of subclades R1b among Uzbeks. Just looking at the base of the early subclades R1b in FTDNA saw several people from R1b m73 country-Uzbekistan, but in the footnotes who the ancestor says "Karakalpak Nation". Karakalpaks - steppe nomadic people between Uzbeks, Turkmen and Kazakhs. And much closer to the situation than to the Uzbeks.
But refers to Uzbekistan. Karakalpaks generally have more all R1b than Uzbeks in percentage terms. But the proportions of the haplogroups R1b are different. So, Karakalpak apparently has more M73 and generally early subclades.
I assume that perhaps the researchers of Ftdna and Yfull had an error, they considered the Karakalpaks to be part of the Uzbeks, and because of this the percentage of early subclades among the Uzbeks was higher

Scat
02-05-2019, 06:27 PM
Found u106 in one Bashkir, according to the predictor, but very clearly. Thus, the Bashkirs among l11 have not only u152, but also u106