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View Full Version : “Outlaw King”, on Netflix. Warning!! Spoilers.



Webb
11-13-2018, 01:49 AM
I wasn’t sure which sub forum was best, but has anyone seen this movie yet? I finished it last night. They actually stayed very close to historic facts and didn’t add a lot of fluff. I think I was most impressed with the amount of the storyline that the gave Sir James Douglas.

Garimund
11-13-2018, 02:02 AM
I watched this last night too. I'm not sure of all the historical details, but I thought it was very good.

drobbah
11-13-2018, 03:00 AM
It was a great movie, I especially liked the realistic battle scenes.Imho the history of the British Isles is by far the most interesting in Europe and this is coming from a non-European.

Angoliga
11-13-2018, 04:25 AM
The Braveheart sequel we've all been waiting for :beerchug:

I'm about a quarter in...

*spoiler*
... it took me a bit to realize whose limb was dangling on display during that initial riot :0

sktibo
11-13-2018, 05:53 AM
The Braveheart sequel we've all been waiting for :beerchug:

I'm about a quarter in...

*spoiler*
... it took me a bit to realize whose limb was dangling on display during that initial riot :0

this! I enjoyed it

JonikW
11-13-2018, 08:12 AM
I enjoyed it too. Refreshing to see a reasonably accurate storyline combined with authentic-looking costumes and sets. The church scenes in particular struck me, with the priests' regalia and setting looking right. Even the English were not quite the one-dimensional baddies they usually are in these things, and Edward was finely acted. Would love to see more historical drama of this quality now.

Jessie
11-13-2018, 08:32 AM
I love historical movies like this so I watched it and enjoyed it. There is also another Robert the Bruce movie coming out in 2019. Robert the Bruce's second wife wasn't English like in this movie she was actually one of the De Burgh's (Elizabeth De Burgh) and her father was Richard Óg de Burgh, 2nd Earl of Ulster and 3rd Baron of Connaught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_de_Burgh

His first wife was Isabella of Mar who died before he was crowned King of Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Mar

Webb
11-13-2018, 02:06 PM
I love historical movies like this so I watched it and enjoyed it. There is also another Robert the Bruce movie coming out in 2019. Robert the Bruce's second wife wasn't English like in this movie she was actually one of the De Burgh's (Elizabeth De Burgh) and her father was Richard Óg de Burgh, 2nd Earl of Ulster and 3rd Baron of Connaught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_de_Burgh

His first wife was Isabella of Mar who died before he was crowned King of Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Mar

Plus she was imprisoned for 8 years, not just hanging in a basket for what seemed like a day. But I guess they had to speed things up for the movie.

Rethel
11-14-2018, 12:18 PM
They actually stayed very close to historic facts

Really? Do negroes lived in Scotland
at the beginning of XIVth century &
was a woman making coronations?

But generally it was much better than the
Braveheart, which contains much of idiotic
fictional things added by Gibson.



the history of the British Isles is by far the most interesting in Europe

You just watched too much historical films, which in huge proportion are about the Isles.

Ruderico
11-14-2018, 12:30 PM
Imho the history of the British Isles is by far the most interesting in Europe and this is coming from a non-European.

You are probably much more familiarised with British history than the rest of the continent, which is expected considering the media and the internet is very anglicised. It's really hard (and I'd say very unfair) to say one is much more interesting than another

drobbah
11-14-2018, 12:47 PM
You just watched too much historical films, which in huge proportion are about the Isles.

Not true at all.


You are probably much more familiarised with British history than the rest of the continent, which is expected considering the media and the internet is very anglicised. It's really hard (and I'd say very unfair) to say one is much more interesting than another
It's called an opinion.

Ruderico
11-14-2018, 12:49 PM
Doesn't make what I said untrue

drobbah
11-14-2018, 12:54 PM
Doesn't make what I said untrue
Is that why you first replied with "You are probably"? I just stated my opinion there is no need to be angry

Ruderico
11-14-2018, 01:28 PM
This conversation is getting stupid, I'm out.



I'll see the movie this weekend, I've always enjoyed movies about the middle ages, eventhough we don't get to see as many high budget movies from other regions or earlier eras. I'd very much like one about the migration period or early middle ages- no vikings though

Trelvern
11-15-2018, 09:59 PM
Humphrey de Bohun was one of the main fighters at the Battle of Bannockburn. He was the father of Thomas Dagworth's wife. Dagworth, an English knight, who fought in Brittany during the War of Succession (Battle of La Roche Derrien 1347)

Magnificent landscapes, beautiful reconstructions, a zest of cruelty, a pinch of romance, shortcuts and improbabilities.

Too much manichaeism too
Bruce the generous,Edward the incompetent.

Why let a king go when an important woman must be released?

alan
11-15-2018, 10:42 PM
Braveheart for grown ups

spruithean
11-15-2018, 10:59 PM
Humphrey de Bohun was one of the main fighters at the Battle of Bannockburn. He was the father of Thomas Dagworth's wife. Dagworth, an English knight, who fought in Brittany during the War of Succession (Battle of La Roche Derrien 1347)

Magnificent landscapes, beautiful reconstructions, a zest of cruelty, a pinch of romance, shortcuts and improbabilities.

Too much manichaeism too
Bruce the generous,Edward the incompetent.

Why let a king go when an important woman must be released?

Well Edward II didn't die during the Scottish Wars of Independence, he was murdered later by English nobles. So killing him at Loudon Hill in the movie would have been a glaring historical inaccuracy.

Trelvern
11-16-2018, 06:51 AM
Well Edward II didn't die during the Scottish Wars of Independence, he was murdered later by English nobles. So killing him at Loudon Hill in the movie would have been a glaring historical inaccuracy.

I know
but this scene of mercyfull is pretty weird and inaccurate too.

Webb
11-16-2018, 02:10 PM
There were inaccuracies in the movie, but compared to Braveheart they were mild. I was impressed with the side story of James Douglas, the movie even included the Douglas Larder. Historically, he attacked his own castle three times, but in the movie they condensed it into one attack.

spruithean
11-16-2018, 09:23 PM
There were inaccuracies in the movie, but compared to Braveheart they were mild. I was impressed with the side story of James Douglas, the movie even included the Douglas Larder. Historically, he attacked his own castle three times, but in the movie they condensed it into one attack.

I'm glad they emphasized his constant shouting of "Douglas!"

The guy who portrayed James Douglas did a great job imo.

Rethel
11-18-2018, 04:33 PM
I'd very much like one about the migration period or early middle ages- no vikings though

Attila, King Arthur 2004, Nibelungen's Ring and Last Legion.
Not directly, but contain some events about the Migration.

spruithean
11-18-2018, 10:10 PM
Attila, King Arthur 2004, Nibelungen's Ring and Last Legion.
Not directly, but contain some events about the Migration.

It's too bad that the King Arthur 2004 film is so terrible in my opinion. Way too much demonizing of the Saxons and romanticism of the Romans, Celts and Sarmatians.

Saetro
11-18-2018, 11:21 PM
You are probably much more familiarised with British history than the rest of the continent, which is expected considering the media and the internet is very anglicised. It's really hard (and I'd say very unfair) to say one is much more interesting than another

Totally agree.
Australia is Anglophone (actually "USA-phone") but has a very high proportion of people who were born abroad, or their parents were.
Many were non-English speakers, so we have two TV channels with lots of non-English stuff.
The Accursed Kings (French) was a brilliant mini-series (Google it) and there are some great historical films and series from all over Europe (including Iberia) and Japan, China and Korea. All with sub-titles, mercifully, since even some of my European language knowledge is a bit limited.
Many of these avoid Hollywood conventions of modifying the story for certain conventions of "morality".

I even grew up watching both Robin Hood and the French Thierry le Fronde (dubbed in English).

There is lots around, if you look for it.
And there are some very fine translations of books by European and Latin American authors too.

Enjoy!

JonikW
11-19-2018, 01:14 AM
It's too bad that the King Arthur 2004 film is so terrible in my opinion. Way too much demonizing of the Saxons and romanticism of the Romans, Celts and Sarmatians.

Fully agree. So many things annoyed me about that movie. I loved Stellan Skarsgård's performance though. He was good in Beowulf & Grendel too. Another film that had a lot going for it but that was sadly flawed in many ways.

spruithean
11-19-2018, 01:58 AM
Fully agree. So many things annoyed me about that movie. I loved Stellan Skarsgård's performance though. He was good in Beowulf & Grendel too. Another film that had a lot going for it but that was sadly flawed in many ways.

Maybe some time we'll get relatively accurate movies based on the Adventus Saxonum and Beowulf & Grendel.

Ruderico
11-19-2018, 09:37 AM
I saw the movie now, not versed enough on its history to judge much, but as usual mail and padded armour seems relatively ineffective, which is a shame because people used it for a reason. I enjoyed the movie eventhough it wasn't great

Trelvern
11-20-2018, 12:47 PM
I saw the movie now, not versed enough on its history to judge much, but as usual mail and padded armour seems relatively ineffective, which is a shame because people used it for a reason. I enjoyed the movie eventhough it wasn't great

just an entertainment
arsenic and old armors

Rethel
11-20-2018, 04:33 PM
There is lots around, if you look for it.

Much more interesting stuff is not even filmed yet.

For example the medieval history of Germany is almost not puuted into screen at all.
There would be wonderfull films about Merovings, Karl the Hammer, late Karolingian kings
And especially period between Ludolfings and Great Interregnum (or even Black Death).

The same with polish medieval history, which is similarly interestingly complicated as british.
There were some trys in 1960s and 1970s, but they are not too fine for modern viewer.

The best of polish historical films are: "An ancient Tale - when a Sun was god", "Knights of
the Teutonic Order", "With Sword and Fire", "The Deluge", "Colonel Wołodyjowski", "Lord/Sir
Taddeus", "The Revenge", "Black Clouds" - not all available in english unfortunatly.


In last years were made some films in and about other countrues like "Arn" (Sweden), "Toledo",
"Isabel" and "Karl" (Spain), "Jarosłav", 'Viking", "Alexander", "Bassilissa", "Vołkodav" and many
others in Russia. Just even last year Russkies produced "Scyth", "Kołovrat", "Last Hero" or "Orda".
Some of them are fables putted in the deep past. They even made an exellent animated fable
series of films as "Three Heros" or the "John Tzarsson and the Gray Wolf". Maybe not all of it is
top 10 in world cinematography, but they are really quite well and watchable.

Caledonian
11-21-2018, 03:07 PM
I didn't think it was a very good film to be honest. Chris Pine somehow managed to make Robert the Bruce as dull as dishwater, and how the hell can you have a film about the Bruce and have no effing battle of Bannockburn. 4/10

ADW_1981
11-21-2018, 03:27 PM
I wasn’t sure which sub forum was best, but has anyone seen this movie yet? I finished it last night. They actually stayed very close to historic facts and didn’t add a lot of fluff. I think I was most impressed with the amount of the storyline that the gave Sir James Douglas.

I enjoyed it, and generally like Chris Pine in his other stuff such as Star Trek, but the anti-English bias that is constantly coming out of Hollywood is sickening. Robert the Bruce was just a Norman like the opposing faction of Plantagenets. I don't really consider the losing side as victims, just losers. None of them were actually English, which is the funny thing of it all. I'm also not certain the nobles would have been speaking English, probably French, but why over complicate things eh?

If you want slightly better historical fiction, watch The Last Kingdom. The 3rd season just came out on Netflix and did not disappoint, just as I expected. It has a healthy balance of victories and losses, so you leave on a generally good note when things wrap up at the end. I wonder if the Danes were depicted a little more brutal than they actually were in history, but who really knows.

Nino90
11-21-2018, 03:30 PM
I didn't think it was a very good film to be honest. Chris Pine somehow managed to make Robert the Bruce as dull as dishwater, and how the hell can you have a film about the Bruce and have no effing battle of Bannockburn. 4/10


I really enjoyed the movie. But I agree on Bannockburn. Even if I enjoyed the last battle scene. It was way too short.

But I am still happy they did an somewhat historical movie. Instead of all other junk nowadays.

spruithean
11-21-2018, 09:20 PM
I didn't think it was a very good film to be honest. Chris Pine somehow managed to make Robert the Bruce as dull as dishwater, and how the hell can you have a film about the Bruce and have no effing battle of Bannockburn. 4/10

I was surprised they didn't feature and Bannockburn scenes, but I suppose they were focusing on events that led to Bruce's campaign. I would agree that they made Bruce rather boring, but it made it easier to emphasise individuals such as James Douglas.


I enjoyed it, and generally like Chris Pine in his other stuff such as Star Trek, but the anti-English bias that is constantly coming out of Hollywood is sickening. Robert the Bruce was just a Norman like the opposing faction of Plantagenets. I don't really consider the losing side as victims, just losers. None of them were actually English, which is the funny thing of it all. I'm also not certain the nobles would have been speaking English, probably French, but why over complicate things eh?

If you want slightly better historical fiction, watch The Last Kingdom. The 3rd season just came out on Netflix and did not disappoint, just as I expected. It has a healthy balance of victories and losses, so you leave on a generally good note when things wrap up at the end. I wonder if the Danes were depicted a little more brutal than they actually were in history, but who really knows.

I'm also confused by the anti-English sentiment. There are plenty of series and movies that could be made with English history from all eras. Whether "positive" or "negative".

In regards to the Bruce and others being Norman, I had read a blog post a long time ago that mentioned Edward Bruce's campaign in Ireland where Bruce, a Norman with Scottish troops fought some more Normans with Irish troops. It seems to some degree it was prefix-Norman (Anglo-, Hiberno-Norman, Scoto-, etc) elites with troops from the country those specific Normans occupied.

I've been watching The Last Kingdom and it is a decent enough show, a little frustrating at times with the dynamics between Alfred and Uhtred.


I really enjoyed the movie. But I agree on Bannockburn. Even if I enjoyed the last battle scene. It was way too short.

But I am still happy they did an somewhat historical movie. Instead of all other junk nowadays.

Bannockburn would have been an intense battle scene for sure, though I suppose they highlighted Loudon Hill because of the clear difference in numbers of troops.

Trelvern
12-05-2018, 07:34 PM
I was surprised they didn't feature and Bannockburn scenes, but I suppose they were focusing on events that led to Bruce's campaign. I would agree that they made Bruce rather boring, but it made it easier to emphasise individuals such as James Douglas.



I'm also confused by the anti-English sentiment. There are plenty of series and movies that could be made with English history from all eras. Whether "positive" or "negative".

In regards to the Bruce and others being Norman, I had read a blog post a long time ago that mentioned Edward Bruce's campaign in Ireland where Bruce, a Norman with Scottish troops fought some more Normans with Irish troops. It seems to some degree it was prefix-Norman (Anglo-, Hiberno-Norman, Scoto-, etc) elites with troops from the country those specific Normans occupied.

I've been watching The Last Kingdom and it is a decent enough show, a little frustrating at times with the dynamics between Alfred and Uhtred.



Bannockburn would have been an intense battle scene for sure, though I suppose they highlighted Loudon Hill because of the clear difference in numbers of troops.

the last kingdom is much better, but this time, it is the vikings who are poorly served: a bunch of dirty and thirsty brutes

spruithean
12-05-2018, 08:07 PM
the last kingdom is much better, but this time, it is the vikings who are poorly served: a bunch of dirty and thirsty brutes

Eh the Saxons aren't being portrayed much better. They seem to be depicted as treacherous and quite pious and not overly unified (which was a thing in Alfred's time). If we see the Vikings from the perspective of the Anglo-Saxon it is understandable as to why the Vikings seem dirty and brutish.

Jenny
12-06-2018, 08:26 AM
I think it's a guy thing, I was bored right from the beginning and didn't bother to watch the whole thing

msmarjoribanks
12-06-2018, 06:11 PM
the last kingdom is much better, but this time, it is the vikings who are poorly served: a bunch of dirty and thirsty brutes

I've read a few of the books (the ones the first two series are based on), and the Vikings come off pretty well, especially compared to the Saxons. I believe they are specifically said to be cleaner too, although would have to confirm that.

Cornwell obviously likes them, as does his main character.

Both groups have good guys and bad guys.

I don't recall thinking it was much different in the show, but don't have strong memories of the show specifically (will have to catch up with the 3rd series, nice to know it's available).

Trelvern
12-06-2018, 06:32 PM
I've read a few of the books (the ones the first two series are based on), and the Vikings come off pretty well, especially compared to the Saxons. I believe they are specifically said to be cleaner too, although would have to confirm that.

Cornwell obviously likes them, as does his main character.

Both groups have good guys and bad guys.

I don't recall thinking it was much different in the show, but don't have strong memories of the show specifically (will have to catch up with the 3rd series, nice to know it's available).




"The Norman monk Dudo of Saint-Quentin was very critical of Hastein:

This was a man accursed: fierce, mightily cruel, and savage, pestilent, hostile, sombre, truculent, given to outrage, pestilent and untrustworthy, fickle and lawless. Death-dealing, uncouth, fertile in ruses, warmonger general, traitor, fomenter of evil, and double-dyeded dissimulator ... Dudo of St. Quentin's. Gesta Normannorum. Book 1. Chapter 3.[15]" (Wikipedia)


the monks were not fond of the Vikings.
We can understand !

JonikW
12-07-2018, 11:02 PM
I enjoyed Outlaw King, as I posted earlier. Last Kingdom, not so much. What animal could supply the fur that Uhtred wears? That's not my main worry though, although I did think Ubba was wonderful. I couldn't even watch beyond the first scene in this latest series, and I'm someone who's read the books.
I just rewatched a truly quality historical drama: 1967's Far from the Madding Crowd. Justifying posting on a Celtic thread because I'm a traditional tin whistle player and the wonderful music was a reminder of the common musical heritage of Britain and Ireland, with their jigs, reels and airs. What a film. Would be impossible to make something of that quality today, partly because so much remained of Victorian times when it was made. Haunting.

Trelvern
12-08-2018, 01:28 PM
I watch these series in the original subtitled version and I am struck by the variety of accents. The actor who plays Uthred has a particular accent. Is he British?
I am unfortunately not able to follow all this in English without subtitles.

The last time I saw a movie in its real original version, it was a long time ago (1969 i guess), in London, when I saw "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid" without really understanding (except "who are those guys, who are those guys" repeated at the top of the hill.)
And ,of course, the national anthem played after the performance...
Unforgettable for a Frenchman.

spruithean
12-08-2018, 01:30 PM
The guy who portrays Uhtred (Alexander Dreymon, aka Doetsch) is German, in interviews his accent is minimal. I think he is playing up an accent that is unique from Anglo-Saxon and Dane due to his exposure to both groups since his childhood.

JonikW
12-08-2018, 08:23 PM
The guy who portrays Uhtred (Alexander Dreymon, aka Doetsch) is German, in interviews his accent is minimal. I think he is playing up an accent that is unique from Anglo-Saxon and Dane due to his exposure to both groups since his childhood.

Some good casting in the series. Especially Ubba and the early series Danes. Alfred also comes across plausibly. I feel the female characters let it down. The women of the time deserve better.

spruithean
12-08-2018, 09:09 PM
Some good casting in the series. Especially Ubba and the early series Danes. Alfred also comes across plausibly. I feel the female characters let it down. The women of the time deserve better.

Ubba could have had some more depth if they had added a reference to him being "dux" of the Frisians. I wonder what the etymology of the name Ubba may be. It seems similar to the Frisian name "Wibbe". Either coincidental sounding names or they are related names. Perhaps Ubba was of partial Frisian descent?

Ælswith was (spoiler alert) frustrating in the third season of the show. But I suppose she will evolve as the next season develops in the future and as the successors of Alfred come forward.

Thankfully though, Æthelflæd is gradually developing into the leader of Mercia we read about in history. Which is exciting. Her husband definitely seems like a rat in this show!

Finn
12-08-2018, 10:12 PM
Ubba could have had some more depth if they had added a reference to him being "dux" of the Frisians. I wonder what the etymology of the name Ubba may be. It seems similar to the Frisian name "Wibbe". Either coincidental sounding names or they are related names. Perhaps Ubba was of partial Frisian descent?


Ubba is not recognized.
But Ubbe and Ubbo are related to Ubo, according to the Meertens Institute (google translate):

Frisian name. According to Fokkema, Obe is a form of two-name Germanic names with wolf-, in that case with a reduction of the l with a second member that started with b. It is also possible that it is a shortage, likewise two-legged, from Odb- (compare Obrecht), in which Od- means 'heritage' (see od-).


Wibe has a different meaning:

Frisian name. Two-fold shortening of Germanic names with wîh- 'struggle' (see -wig-) or with will-, well- 'will' (see will-), of which the second member with b- started for example -bert or -brand (see - brecht and fire).

spruithean
12-08-2018, 11:31 PM
Ubba is not recognized.
But Ubbe and Ubbo are related to Ubo, according to the Meertens Institute (google translate):


Wibe has a different meaning:

Thanks. That explains why I couldn't find origin info for the name Ubba! If only I had looked for Ubbe, Ubbo/Ubo. Wibe appears numerous times in my family tree among other Frisian names.

So indeed they are coincidental names.