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Ruderico
06-09-2021, 05:55 PM
The problem with the Roman veterans left behind as settlers after the conquest, in Iberia as well as in Gaul, is that at that time they were probably not very 'Roman' any more. The legions were probably full of Illyrians, Po Valley Gauls, Magna Graecia mercenaries, and so on and so forth. We know what campaigns some of the legions were involved in. But I guess we'll never know for sure what the 'ethnic makeup' of each legion exactly was. Too bad. It would help greatly.

I agree, not all would have been from Italy. also I suspect a part of them might have been fairly northern because the amount of Steppe ancestry in ancient Iberians alone was too low to explain the amount modern ones have. Unless the Migration period was quite radical, which isn't impossible, but I find it unlikely. Of course after colonies were founded people could move within the Empire, so as it's not surprising to find North Africans in Roman Iberia, likewise we shouldn't be surprised to eventually find Gauls, Britons or any other ancient western Europeans moving to big cities, particularly those not too far from the coastline like Bracara Augusta, Olisipo, Conimbriga (which I visited a few days ago while moving) etc. Maybe we'll never truly know.

Andour
06-09-2021, 06:10 PM
I agree, not all would have been from Italy. also I suspect a part of them might have been fairly northern because the amount of Steppe ancestry in ancient Iberians alone was too low to explain the amount modern ones have. Unless the Migration period was quite radical, which isn't impossible, but I find it unlikely. Of course after colonies were founded people could move within the Empire, so as it's not surprising to find North Africans in Roman Iberia, likewise we shouldn't be surprised to eventually find Gauls, Britons or any other ancient western Europeans moving to big cities, particularly those not too far from the coastline like Bracara Augusta, Olisipo, Conimbriga (which I visited a few days ago while moving) etc. Maybe we'll never truly know.

Maybe you underestimate the levels of steppe in pre-Roman Iberia (?). The Celtiberians (whoever they were and whenever the migrations occurred) may have been more steppe-shifted than the previous BA pops. Also, I am perplexed by the Phyleogeographer heatmap for L21 > L1066, bright red in the NW of Iberia. I always thought those Irish myths about contacts between Ireland and Iberia were just that : myths. Now I am no longer sure.

I also think the impact of the Migration Period was higher than usually estimated, notoriously in 'your' North Portugal, however much of a counter-example you yourself might be. :-)

Luso
06-09-2021, 06:39 PM
I agree, not all would have been from Italy. also I suspect a part of them might have been fairly northern because the amount of Steppe ancestry in ancient Iberians alone was too low to explain the amount modern ones have. Unless the Migration period was quite radical, which isn't impossible, but I find it unlikely. Of course after colonies were founded people could move within the Empire, so as it's not surprising to find North Africans in Roman Iberia, likewise we shouldn't be surprised to eventually find Gauls, Britons or any other ancient western Europeans moving to big cities, particularly those not too far from the coastline like Bracara Augusta, Olisipo, Conimbriga (which I visited a few days ago while moving) etc. Maybe we'll never truly know.

But theoretically... if these roman samples included many legions of higher-steppe, more northern individuals wouldn't that produce a northern shift in the modern population instead of southern??? Because maybe my knowledge is too minuscule, but I'm pretty sure the roman DNA (on avg) gave Iberians a southern shift away from the Basque population-- a population which is a good baseline of pre-invaded Iberia.

Ruderico
06-09-2021, 06:42 PM
Maybe you underestimate the levels of steppe in pre-Roman Iberia (?). The Celtiberians (whoever they were and whenever the migrations occurred) may have been more steppe-shifted than the previous BA pops. Also, I am perplexed by the Phyleogeographer heatmap for L21 > L1066, bright red in the NW of Iberia. I always thought those Irish myths about contacts between Ireland and Iberia were just that : myths. Now I am no longer sure.

I also think the impact of the Migration Period was higher than usually estimated, notoriously in 'your' North Portugal, however much of a counter-example you yourself might be. :-)

From what I remember the Celtiberian samples have, at most, about the same amount we currently do, the Iberians were generally considerably lower, even lower than modern Basques. The samples with the highest amount were, perhaps unsurprisingly, those from Girona since the site is on the border with ancient Gaul, and the area has the highest amount of La Tène findings in the peninsula AFAIK. Here, in the far west, La Tène influence was virtually non-existent and the Celt(iberian) influence arrived the latest and was the most incomplete, as the then-surviving Lusitanian language attested to. The only two samples from the LBA/EIA central Portugal were also apparently low on Steppe ancestry, but they are low-res samples.

The main issue might be undersampling, ante-Roman Iberia was only sampled somewhat along the Mediterranean coastline, plus the Berones Celtiberian site form La Hoya, so we might be building this scenario with incomplete data because we haven't explored enough. It might even be possible that the heatmap you referenced might be a consequence of the Atlantic Bronze Age Culture that we're not (genetically) aware of.

Iberia also has the peculiarity of the Reconquista, we know from medieval sources that foreigners settled some depopulated areas, particularly people from modern England/France/Benelux, so that might also be part of the explanation. Who knows. What I'm getting the strong feeling of is that the pre-Roman continuity isn't as high as I previously thought.



But theoretically... if these roman samples included many legions of higher-steppe, more northern individuals wouldn't that produce a northern shift in the modern population instead of southern??? Because maybe my knowledge is too minuscule, but I'm pretty sure the roman DNA (on avg) gave Iberians a southern shift away from the Basque population-- a population which is a good baseline of pre-invaded Iberia.

North/South nomenclature is a bit vague. There are modern populations that have more East-Med and Steppe ancestry than we do here in Europe - NE Italy and the Balkans. Look at where they plot compared to us. That's were a combination of both Imperial Roman and "ancient West Euro" settling in Roman cities of Iberia would bring us to. The problem is that we don't even know if that's what happened or not, it's all very hypothetical.