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bmoney
11-19-2018, 07:10 AM
Note:UPDATED with more UP+Bihar groups from a separate table in the same study. I consolidated the results together and sorted by average melanin index

FYI from one of Razibs recent posts. http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/11/13/skin-color-of-south-asian-groups/

A random assortment of populations that excludes the NW (except Haryana Ror) and Bengal

Sorted by mean melanin index (higher equals more melanin equals darker skin colour):

I have highlighted the castes that are above the African threshold of melanin Predominantly African ancestry populations have melanin indices >50

https://i.imgur.com/OpwdGiH.png

The paper mentioned that 42% of the skin color variation in the data can be explained by caste. which is under what I expected

FYI the Yadava are a Tamil caste unrelated to UP Yadavs

agent_lime
11-19-2018, 07:36 AM
Interesting observation that the Southern Yadavs have nothing to do with the Northern Yadavs. Do we have any Harrapa for either of these communities? Now that I've taken interest in caste, this might be more proof of people changing last name for status.

bmoney
11-19-2018, 09:43 AM
Interesting observation that the Southern Yadavs have nothing to do with the Northern Yadavs. Do we have any Harrapa for either of these communities? Now that I've taken interest in caste, this might be more proof of people changing last name for status.

UP Yadavs aren't considered high caste at all (they are OBC) but my guess is that they would score like UP Kshatriyas

up-kshatriya
metspalu
7
S Indian 45%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 4%
NE Euro 8%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
NE Asian 0%
Papuan 0%
American 1%
Beringian 0%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 0%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%

So Tamil Yadavas are probably a cowherd caste that adopted their title based on occupation. Something like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konar_(caste)

A similar herder caste also falling within the Yadav 'caste' in Karnataka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingayatism

Konkan/Marathi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowari

Marathi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhangar

Hindi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahir

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 09:51 AM
I'm not sure about validity of this melanine index.
Poles are said in this paper to have slightly higher index (29.9) than Portugese (29.7).
From simple reasoning it is impossible...

bmoney
11-19-2018, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure about validity of this melanine index.
Poles are said in this paper to have slightly higher index (29.9) than Portugese (29.7).
From simple reasoning it is impossible...

Yeah not sure how the melanin index was construed.

There was also an allele analysis for South Asians including NW South Asians in the supplementary materials. 'A' means a lighter skin effect and 'G' means darker

https://i.imgur.com/FT9u4r8.png

Dorkymon
11-19-2018, 10:58 AM
I'm not sure about validity of this melanine index.
Poles are said in this paper to have slightly higher index (29.9) than Portugese (29.7).
From simple reasoning it is impossible...

Are you sure? I lived abroad for a while and though I didn't meet any Portuguese people, my Polish friends certainly had a yellowish hue to them, which is generally quite common in Eastern Europeans (North to South). NW Europeans, not all of them obviously, are usually more pinkish and I don't know if this applies to the Portuguese too. But one can easily tell the difference with the naked eye.

Ruderico
11-19-2018, 11:45 AM
They measure on areas not generally exposed to sunlight like under the armpit I believe, as to avoid measuring tanned skin and thus getting an incorrect measurement as some people tan a lot better than others - this is especially true in southern Europe of course. For example my chest area is much lighter than my face and hands, even during winter time.

Portuguese are usually milky white but not ruddy like central and north Europeans, and we usually tan quite well (good riddance, because summers can be torrid), with a few exceptions - like my mother and grandmother who get pimples and burn to a crisp

agent_lime
11-19-2018, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure about validity of this melanine index.
Poles are said in this paper to have slightly higher index (29.9) than Portugese (29.7).
From simple reasoning it is impossible...

What is this reasoning? Living in the states at least anecdotally Poles and Portuguese seemed very similar. I met more Poles though. Poland is also a colder country than Portugal; epigentics and harsher winter change looks long term. Just in South Asia the Kashmiris have selected A on both alleles by preference for lighter skin. On the other hand Haryana jats who have much more N Euro and comparable Caucasian don't always look different from their mid caste gangetic plains neighbors.

poi
11-19-2018, 04:24 PM
Interesting that (Bihar) Jha are crossing the "threshold" into the darker territory... Jha are a big/influential community in Nepal as well(traditionally Brahmins from the plains have been much higher educated), unlike other Madhesi people traditionally. The skin pigmentation range amongst them is HUGE from my observation. There are really dark individuals and there are relatively much lighter ones.

I will post some in the phenotype thread (so not to litter it here).

poi
11-19-2018, 04:39 PM
Is it just me or -- at least in the Gangetic plains -- caste affiliation has almost REVERSE effect on the melanin index. In that list, I see upper caste Biharis being darker than others. Like Sharma/Pandit/Thakur Biharis being darker than the Dalits (scheduled caste).

agent_lime
11-19-2018, 05:02 PM
Is it just me or -- at least in the Gangetic plains -- caste affiliation has almost REVERSE effect on the melanin index. In that list, I see upper caste Biharis being darker than others. Like Sharma/Pandit/Thakur Biharis being darker than the Dalits (scheduled caste).

Another interesting thing is that AP Brahmins and TN Brahmins are lighter than UP Brahmins. From talking with my dad( who lived in the South for 5 years in the mid 80's) the Southern Brahmins are very particular about taking light brides. Is that still the case? Have they also selected for fine and lighter features like the Kashmiris?

poi
11-19-2018, 05:17 PM
Another interesting thing is that AP Brahmins and TN Brahmins are lighter than UP Brahmins. From talking with my dad( who lived in the South for 5 years in the mid 80's) the Southern Brahmins are very particular about taking light brides. Is that still the case? Have they also selected for fine and lighter features like the Kashmiria?

Selection could be huge, no doubt, regardless of any underlying ancestral genetics. Even ignoring the scientific melanin index, based on just anecdotes and observation, Gangetic plains(hot and humid) do have people shades darker than other (hot but dryer) regions. Perhaps in non-Gangetic regions, upper castes just selected for lighter brides. May be the underlying AASI groups were darker in the hot/humid regions than the hot/dry regions. May be a combo of many factors.

kush
11-19-2018, 06:10 PM
This is literally the opposite of what I expected. As a Reddy, we're generally very dark skinned people and we are in no way lighter than UP brahmins on average at all.

Sapporo
11-19-2018, 06:16 PM
This is literally the opposite of what I expected. As a Reddy, we're generally very dark skinned people and we are in no way lighter than UP brahmins on average at all.

It's probably East UP Brahmins but regardless, I'm not sure why they're darker than South Indian Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, AP or Maharashtra. All three are less Steppe and slightly more AASI shifted than East UP Brahmins. As others mentioned, it could be down to colorism based selection.

Not sure if it was on Razib's blog or some other link but I saw some data in the last 24-48 hours that showed Muslim Kashmiris have the some of the highest percentage of light skin alleles in South Asia. They are around 97%.

edit: bmoney posted it on the previous page:

https://i.imgur.com/FT9u4r8.png

Seems like J&K Gujjars are near the top as well. What I don't understand is why Karnataka Havik (Brahmins) are so high even when compared to some NW groups like Kashmiri Pandits and Khatris. Perhaps, it's colorist based selection similar to other South Indian Brahmins? Or the data is inaccurate?

poi
11-19-2018, 07:45 PM
This is literally the opposite of what I expected. As a Reddy, we're generally very dark skinned people and we are in no way lighter than UP brahmins on average at all.


It's probably East UP Brahmins but regardless, I'm not sure why they're darker than South Indian Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, AP or Maharashtra. ...

The range(listed in the blog, haven't read the main study) has Reddy and UP Brahmins both having huge range, from low 30s to low 60s. Reddys have both lower Average and also the range is lighter. Btw, Kush, you would by no means stick out, phenotypically, in any part of "North India".

poi
11-19-2018, 08:08 PM
...
edit: bmoney posted it on the previous page:

https://i.imgur.com/FT9u4r8.png

What's even more surprising is that Paniyas have those A alleles from 22-28%. Gond and Tharu are 43-48%. But those alleles alone don't translate into light skin, because other SNPs/climate/etc are into play as well.

23andme does something similar with their skin pigmentation report, although the other SNP they use for skin pigmentation is rs16891982. I have tested 4 of my family members from them and they are listed as "likely to be lighter skinned"(less than 7% light brown and darker), yet my dad and motherinlaw are shades darker and cannot be light skinned phenotypically.

kush
11-19-2018, 08:50 PM
It's probably East UP Brahmins but regardless, I'm not sure why they're darker than South Indian Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, AP or Maharashtra. All three are less Steppe and slightly more AASI shifted than East UP Brahmins. As others mentioned, it could be down to colorism based selection.

Not sure if it was on Razib's blog or some other link but I saw some data in the last 24-48 hours that showed Muslim Kashmiris have the some of the highest percentage of light skin alleles in South Asia. They are around 97%.

edit: bmoney posted it on the previous page:

https://i.imgur.com/FT9u4r8.png

Seems like J&K Gujjars are near the top as well. What I don't understand is why Karnataka Havik (Brahmins) are so high even when compared to some NW groups like Kashmiri Pandits and Khatris. Perhaps, it's colorist based selection similar to other South Indian Brahmins? Or the data is inaccurate?

I think south asia is an exception to everything lol. Most uppercastes in general have the light skin AA or AG genotypes. Its above 60-65% in most upper and mid castes, whether north or south yet many of these upper castes are very dark skinned, especially in the south and even in UP/bihar based on the chart in OP. I dont think the light skin allele frequency literally translates to the color hierarchy imo since like poi mentioned there are several factors involved in producing the light skin pheno such as environment, selection like you mentioned.

Color based selection could be there but idk most southern brahmins just look like sharp featured south indians, especially tamil and telugu brahmins. Kannada brahmins do look like lightest in the region, but they also have more euro in general compared to the other two communities.

Gujjars are more western in origin right compared to most punjabis? But so are khatris but they have slightly less light skin allele frequency than gujjars and pandits. Yeah Haviks are just like a founder effect population but many brahmins in the south mixed with other upper or mid caste dravidian populations when they migrated from the north so that explains why certain castes in the south might still have relatively high A allele frequencies

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 09:09 PM
Are you sure? I lived abroad for a while and though I didn't meet any Portuguese people, my Polish friends certainly had a yellowish hue to them, which is generally quite common in Eastern Europeans (North to South). NW Europeans, not all of them obviously, are usually more pinkish and I don't know if this applies to the Portuguese too. But one can easily tell the difference with the naked eye.

Portugese don't have NW Euro skin pigmenation (this is pinkish white which not tan but rather change to red in summer and on this chart we have Irish who are best example and which are much lower on scale). Poles don't have such pigmenation in majority yes, but certainly more of them have it than Portugese people, who are if not tanned milky white as Ruderico said, but in summer tan easily. So proper value could be about 28.
Or you think Poles are really closer to Italians in skin pigmentation than Portugese which is absurd? Considering fact we have much more light eyes and light hair, so possesing darker skin than mostly brunet in eye and hair color Portugal is quite ridiculous idea.

http://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skinindia1.png

poi
11-19-2018, 09:15 PM
Portugese don't have NW Euro skin pigmenation (this is pinkish white which not tan but rather change to red in summer and on this chart we have Irish who are best example and which are much lower on scale). Poles don't have such pigmenation in majority yes, but certainly more of them have it than Portugese people, who are if not tanned milky white as Ruderico said, but in summer tan easily. So proper value could be about 28.
Or you think Poels are really closer to Italians in skin pigmentation than Portugese which is absurd? Considering fact we have much more light eyes and light hair, so possesing darker skin than moslty brunet Portugal is quite ridiculous.

http://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skinindia1.png

Look at the range for "Negrito"(Onge?), lightest Onges have 32, while darkest are MUCH less than the darkest South Asians(70 vs 86). WTH, lightest Negrito have same MI as the "Italian" average?

Okay, this Melanin Index sounds like the 21st century version of the Cranial Index :biggrin1::behindsofa:

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 09:19 PM
Look at the range for "Negrito"(Onge?), lightest Onges have 32, while darkest are MUCH less than the darkest South Asians(70 vs 86). WTH, lightest Negrito have same MI as the "Italian" average?

Okay, this Melanin Index sounds like the 21st century version of the Cranial Index :biggrin1::behindsofa:

I don't understand it. Maybe they use Malay or Luzon Negrito admixed with SE-Asians but even if yes shoudl be higher than one point more above Italy:)

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 09:20 PM
double

Dorkymon
11-19-2018, 10:18 PM
Considering fact we have much more light eyes and light hair, so possesing darker skin than mostly brunet in eye and hair color Portugal is quite ridiculous idea.

http://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skinindia1.png

I don't know and certainly there might be errors, but from my personal travelling experience (not just photos on the Internet), Western Europeans (South to North and irrespective of hair or eye colour) are more ruddy/pinkish. East Europeans (South to North and again irrespective of hair or eye colour) are generally more pallid/pasty.

poi
11-19-2018, 10:20 PM
I don't know and certainly there might be errors, but from my personal travelling experience (not just photos on the Internet), Western Europeans (South to North and irrespective of hair or eye colour) are more ruddy/pinkish. East Europeans (South to North and again irrespective of hair or eye colour) are generally more pallid/pasty.

Wouldn't ruddy/pinkish be due to reaction to the sun? Also, blood vessels could be having an effect, so not necessarily the (melanin) characteristics of the skin. I know very little about this, so correct me if I'm off.

Dorkymon
11-19-2018, 10:27 PM
Wouldn't ruddy/pinkish be due to reaction to the sun? Also, blood vessels could be having an effect, so not necessarily the (melanin) characteristics of the skin. I know very little about this, so correct me if I'm off.

I've no idea honestly, but my tin-foil hat though is that this is caused by some ancient red hair markers in people who no longer have red hair. Maybe something Celtic, which would make sense for Western Europe and would explain this geographic, but not climatic difference between the two sides of the continent.

poi
11-19-2018, 10:30 PM
I've no idea honestly, but my tin-foil hat though is that this is caused by some ancient red hair markers in people who no longer have red hair. Maybe something Celtic, which would make sense for Western Europe and would explain this geographic, but not climatic difference between the two sides of the continent.

May be there could be that(or other) genetic, but non-melanin based, factors that could be causing various hues within the light skin side of the spectrum.

Dorkymon
11-19-2018, 10:32 PM
May be there could be that(or other) genetic, but non-melanin based, factors that could be causing various hue within the light skin side of the spectrum.

Dunno, all red haired people are ruddy, whereas for blondes it swings towards paleness. But maybe there are other factors at play too.

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 10:50 PM
I don't know and certainly there might be errors, but from my personal travelling experience (not just photos on the Internet), Western Europeans (South to North and irrespective of hair or eye colour) are more ruddy/pinkish. East Europeans (South to North and again irrespective of hair or eye colour) are generally more pallid/pasty..

I've been in Portugal, but southernmost province (Madeira). There were rather like our Madeiran guide (on photo) in terms of skin tone then like Brits... But I know Madeirans aren't average Portugese people of course.

https://i.postimg.cc/Sxsw0VKV/Bez-nazwy-12.jpg

pegasus
11-19-2018, 10:56 PM
Another interesting thing is that AP Brahmins and TN Brahmins are lighter than UP Brahmins. From talking with my dad( who lived in the South for 5 years in the mid 80's) the Southern Brahmins are very particular about taking light brides. Is that still the case? Have they also selected for fine and lighter features like the Kashmiris?

There is a strong selective breeding among some gotras and I speculate the same with Chiptivans and Haviks, though Chiptvans are Indo Aryan speakers. Though it should be noted the most of the SI Brahmins I have seen in the US look like other SI people to me. Though yeah the types your dad encountered and which I occasionally encountered in Texas and the Bay Area do stick out like sore thumbs among the general population of their areas. I don't think climate adaption is a factor for these people, as Brahmins are late entrants into Southern India and genetically they are very much derived from a population similar to those Gujarati Brahmins, just more Irula shifted with some exceptions.

Kulin
11-19-2018, 10:59 PM
I've been in Portugal, but southernmost province (Madeira). There were rather like our guide (on photo) in terms of skin tone then like Brits...
https://i.postimg.cc/Sxsw0VKV/Bez-nazwy-12.jpg

Lol, that's darker than me. Portuguese people seem to have a Mediterranean skintone similar to say Ryan Giggs who is Welsh (actually lighter than Giggsy on average). Of course, Poles, as an ethnic group are much lighter, but genetics/climate/diet etc can also be factors that may not necessarily visualize in phenotype or vice versa. Though, this study seems a bit dubious from a cursory look, but of course the experts know best.

Dorkymon
11-19-2018, 11:11 PM
I've been in Portugal, but southernmost province (Madeira). There were rather like our guide (on photo) in terms of skin tone then like Brits...
https://i.postimg.cc/Sxsw0VKV/Bez-nazwy-12.jpg

I mean, so would both of us if we were to live on an island that's at the same latitude as the middle of Morocco.
But at the end of the day, I don't really care. They might have made a mistake in their table for all we know.
And even if they didn't, it doesn't really matter. This guy looks fully native European to me, so to speak, despite his complexion.

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 11:16 PM
Lol, that's darker than me. Portuguese people seem to have a Mediterranean skintone similar to say Ryan Giggs who is Welsh (actually lighter than Giggsy on average). Of course, Poles, as an ethnic group are much lighter, but genetics/climate/diet etc can also be factors that may not necessarily visualize in phenotype or vice versa. Though, this study seems a bit dubious from a cursory look, but of course the experts know best.

Yes, he was darker than most of local people, but he told us he was fully Madeiran.
For me he was in range of Ronaldo (another Madeiran) skin tone
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/IRNPOR_match_2018_FIFA_World_Cup_11_%28cropped%29. jpg

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 11:23 PM
I mean, so would both of us if we were to live on an island that's at the same latitude as the middle of Morocco.
But at the end of the day, I don't really care. They might have made a mistake in their table for all we know.
And even if they didn't, it doesn't really matter. This guy looks fully native European to me, so to speak, despite his complexion.
Agree, EOT :)

poi
11-19-2018, 11:27 PM
Portugese don't have NW Euro skin pigmenation (this is pinkish white which not tan but rather change to red in summer and on this chart we have Irish who are best example and which are much lower on scale). Poles don't have such pigmenation in majority yes, but certainly more of them have it than Portugese people, who are if not tanned milky white as Ruderico said, but in summer tan easily. So proper value could be about 28.
Or you think Poles are really closer to Italians in skin pigmentation than Portugese which is absurd? Considering fact we have much more light eyes and light hair, so possesing darker skin than mostly brunet in eye and hair color Portugal is quite ridiculous idea.

http://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skinindia1.png

Does anyone have the full spreadsheet in a neat google doc/excel format? I am curious about the South Asian where the lightest MI is 28, which is lower than the European average(MI=29). Just guessing, those would be Kalash/Burusho type.

Edit - looking at the supplement from the study(just a consolidated doc, not a raw spreadsheet unfortunately):

The SouthIndian(andhra) Brahmin lowest is 30.9, while the SouthIndian lowest (Kapu) is 30.1.

The NorthIndian(UP) Brahmin lowest is 34.3.

lukaszM
11-19-2018, 11:44 PM
ok I found

bmoney
11-20-2018, 12:20 AM
It's probably East UP Brahmins but regardless, I'm not sure why they're darker than South Indian Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, AP or Maharashtra. All three are less Steppe and slightly more AASI shifted than East UP Brahmins. As others mentioned, it could be down to colorism based selection.

Not sure if it was on Razib's blog or some other link but I saw some data in the last 24-48 hours that showed Muslim Kashmiris have the some of the highest percentage of light skin alleles in South Asia. They are around 97%.

edit: bmoney posted it on the previous page:

https://i.imgur.com/FT9u4r8.png

Seems like J&K Gujjars are near the top as well. What I don't understand is why Karnataka Havik (Brahmins) are so high even when compared to some NW groups like Kashmiri Pandits and Khatris. Perhaps, it's colorist based selection similar to other South Indian Brahmins? Or the data is inaccurate?

Skin colour either loosely correlates with AASI or just those 2 alleles don't provide the full picture

Meena, who should have about 35% AASI are 91% on rs1426654 and 92% on the other

Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims, who have more AASI and E Asian than Gujarati Lohanas and Punjabi Khatris are 100% and 93/97 whereas Khatris are 91/93 and Lohanas are 76/68

From personal experience Karnataka Brahmins are fairer than AP and TN Brahmins as Kush has mentioned and probably fairer than UP Brahmins (from the UP Brahmins I know)

26284729292
11-20-2018, 01:53 AM
There’s definitely a preference for light skin in TN Brahmins. Some of the women in my family are very pale/light skinned I guess despite higher AASI compared to the NW continuum.

agent_lime
11-20-2018, 05:47 AM
There’s definitely a preference for light skin in TN Brahmins. Some of the women in my family are very pale/light skinned I guess despite higher AASI compared to the NW continuum.

Preferences over long term can lead to selection of alleles. It's just natural selection happening artificially similar to how dogs and cats are bred for features. Lighter people are getting married more easily, have more children etc. Over hundreds to thousands of years they turn out to be lighter than their founder populations.

26284729292
11-20-2018, 05:57 AM
Preferences over long term can lead to selection of alleles. It's just natural selection happening artificially similar to how dogs and cats are bred for features. Lighter people are getting married more easily, have more children etc. Over hundreds to thousands of years they turn out to be lighter than their founder populations.

Yep. It’s sad but my grandparents take so much pride in my appearance, skin color, and height. Totally like you said. It’s like I’m the “specimen” so many generations of selection.

I think this effect in India is why we see so much diversity in the same group. Me and my friend could have the sameish genetics and look completely different due to divergent marriage practices within the same group, which I see so much within my community..

Censored
11-20-2018, 06:13 AM
Yep. It’s sad but my grandparents take so much pride in my appearance, skin color, and height. Totally like you said. It’s like I’m the “specimen” so many generations of selection.

I think this effect in India is why we see so much diversity in the same group. Me and my friend could have the sameish genetics and look completely different due to divergent marriage practices within the same group, which I see so much within my community..

It's really sad but I thought that this kind of selection was occurring all across the region across all castes. I never viewed it as being regional or community related. The obsession with light skin among my elders is crazy as well. I think it comes down to the fact that while it's something that's highly preferred among all groups of people, only some are able to act on it. The poor/lower castes have been trying to survive in what is one of the poorest countries in the world, and they had to forego physical criteria in favor of practical attributes for financial security. Poor class males didn't have access to light skin brides whereas the better off communities did, which is why selection occurred in the latter more than the former despite similar notions of physical beauty.

And you're right about the diversity part. I knew a guy back in highschool/middle school who was SI Brahmin. He and his sister looked more Indian than me and my sister by a long shot.

purohit
11-20-2018, 06:30 AM
Is it just me or -- at least in the Gangetic plains -- caste affiliation has almost REVERSE effect on the melanin index. In that list, I see upper caste Biharis being darker than others. Like Sharma/Pandit/Thakur Biharis being darker than the Dalits (scheduled caste).

In bihar sharma pandit and thakur surname is used by dalits and obcs mostly. Bihars 5 general uppercastes are brahmins, bhumihar brahmin, rajputs , kayastha and baniya(vaishya)

agent_lime
11-20-2018, 06:37 AM
In bihar sharma pandit and thakur surname is used by dalits and obcs mostly. Bihars 5 general uppercastes are brahmins, bhumihar brahmin, rajputs , kayastha and baniya(vaishya)

What are the last names for Bihar Brahmins?

purohit
11-20-2018, 06:46 AM
What are the last names for Bihar Brahmins?

Same as up brahmins like pandey dubey mishra tiwari shukla tripathi chaturvedi chaubey.
Maithil brahmins surname is jha.
Bhumihar brahmins surnames are similar to brahmins but many also uses singh and thakur aswell.
Also many biharis just use kumar as surname
Like nitish kumar(kurmi) ravish kumar(bhumihar)
Kanhaiya kumar(bhumihar).
Karpuri thakur former cm of bihar was a nai.

poi
11-20-2018, 06:58 AM
It's really sad but I thought that this kind of selection was occurring all across the region across all castes. I never viewed it as being regional or community related. The obsession with light skin among my elders is crazy as well. I think it comes down to the fact that while it's something that's highly preferred among all groups of people, only some are able to act on it. The poor/lower castes have been trying to survive in what is one of the poorest countries in the world, and they had to forego physical criteria in favor of practical attributes for financial security. Poor class males didn't have access to light skin brides whereas the better off communities did, which is why selection occurred in the latter more than the former despite similar notions of physical beauty.

And you're right about the diversity part. I knew a guy back in highschool/middle school who was SI Brahmins. He and his sister looked more Indian than me and my sister by a long shot.

In our community, darker tone(all else being the same) is not necessarily seen as bad by the elders. They say "uni gori chen, ramri chen" (she is light skinned, she is beautiful), or "uni kali chen, hissi pareki chen" (she is dark, she is delightful). The older generation does have obsession over eyes though... have slightly East Asian eyes and they sort of freak out. It is probably because, in my native country, eye shape is the only way of distinguishing us from other hill groups. Nose is close second. A bahun with roundish nose and older folks(atleast in the hills) start questioning.

Censored
11-20-2018, 07:14 AM
In our community, darker tone(all else being the same) is not necessarily seen as bad by the elders. They say "uni gori chen, ramri chen" (she is light skinned, she is beautiful), or "uni kali chen, hissi pareki chen" (she is dark, she is delightful). The older generation does have obsession over eyes though... have slightly East Asian eyes and they sort of freak out. It is probably because, in my native country, eye shape is the only way of distinguishing us from other hill groups. Nose is close second. A bahun with roundish nose and older folks(atleast in the hills) start questioning.

That's interesting and quite different from what I'm used to. For my elders, being light is synonymous with being beautiful and being dark is synonymous with being ugly. It's like they don't understand facial features at all.

Anyway about the eye/nose thing, I sort of had those East Asian-ish features at a young age(still do to an extent I guess) but i dont remember anyone bringing it up except my stereotypical looking cousins, who used to tease me about it lol.

kush
11-20-2018, 07:36 AM
@poi @pnb what last names are exclusively bahun? I remember pnb saying that bahuns/chhetris have pretty much similar names for the most part but are some surnames unique exclusively to certain communities? I think Adhikari is exclusively bahun since I've not met any chhetri with that name while karki might be exclusively chhetri. What about names like thapa, shah?

pnb123
11-20-2018, 07:44 AM
@poi @pnb what last names are exclusively bahun? I remember pnb saying that bahuns/chhetris have pretty much similar names for the most part but are some surnames unique exclusively to bahuns or chhetris? I think Adhikari is exclusively bahun since I've not met any chhetri with that name while karki might be exclusively chhetri.
None of the surnames are exclusively Bahun. Adhikaris can be both Chhetri and Bahun. Actually people with surname Adhikari changed their surname sometime recently because it’s a title based surname. Most of us have surname based on village. Some Kamis can have Bahun surname as well.

Edit: Thapa are either Magar or Chhetri. Shah can be Magar or Thakuri. Some Thakuris are Chhetris, while some are Magars (if I’m not mistaken). Ruling clan of Nepal (Shah) is Chhetri Thakuri.

kush
11-20-2018, 07:51 AM
None of the surnames are exclusively Bahun. Adhikaris can be both Chhetri and Bahun. Actually people with surname Adhikari changed their surname sometime recently because it’s a title based surname. Most of us have surname based on village. Some Kamis can have Bahun surname as well.

oh i didnt know it was based on villages. Thanks for that. Its interesting all the adhikaris I know are bahun. Maybe its just a coincidence. but thapa and shah come from regions where a lot of tibetan groups reside? Cause people I know with these names have pretty strong mongoloid features

pnb123
11-20-2018, 08:17 AM
oh i didnt know it was based on villages. Thanks for that. Its interesting all the adhikaris I know are bahun. Maybe its just a coincidence. but thapa and shah come from regions where a lot of tibetan groups reside? Cause people I know with these names have pretty strong mongoloid features

Those are surnames that are shared by both Magars and Chhetris. But if they’re Chhetris, they could have recent mix from other hill groups. Also some Chhetris do tend to show East Asian features. Actually I read somewhere that Chhetri rulers in the past had maritial relation with Magars, so that’s where they got their E Asian features from.

Eterne
11-20-2018, 08:47 AM
Re; the European differences from a couple pages back, I don't think they necessarily indicate that the MI is totally wrong (don't throw the baby out with the bathwater), but just consider that there is probably some measurement and non-random sampling when they're measuring populations who are very close in skin tone. In the grand scheme of things, rather subtly different shades of beige.

The data for Europeans are sourced from this paper - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048294#pone.0048294.s003, which has the eye iris colour and skin and hair MI for all populations. Other than Irish, the skin are close over a small range of values compared to the overlap, so it seems fairly likely that the differences between Irish and others are statistically significant and robust, but probably less likely that the differences of Polish who are more intermediate vs Southern Europeans are as robust. The hair and eye differences are over a wider range of absolute MI and colour, so it's more likely that their group differences are robust at least to measurement error (Irish+Polish lighter than Italy+Portugal, Irish lightest, Irish highest range of these two).

Probably worth interpreting the South Asian results in the same manner; there is likely some error factor, and consider that differences of 2-3 (or maybe even more depending on sample ) may have measurement error/sampling error, so probably more useful to consider the results as generally indicative of where populations are than a precise "ranking".

26284729292
11-20-2018, 08:48 AM
It's really sad but I thought that this kind of selection was occurring all across the region across all castes. I never viewed it as being regional or community related. The obsession with light skin among my elders is crazy as well. I think it comes down to the fact that while it's something that's highly preferred among all groups of people, only some are able to act on it. The poor/lower castes have been trying to survive in what is one of the poorest countries in the world, and they had to forego physical criteria in favor of practical attributes for financial security. Poor class males didn't have access to light skin brides whereas the better off communities did, which is why selection occurred in the latter more than the former despite similar notions of physical beauty.

And you're right about the diversity part. I knew a guy back in highschool/middle school who was SI Brahmin. He and his sister looked more Indian than me and my sister by a long shot.

Itís not just money. If your parents are lighter, youíll be lighter on avg and lighter skinned people tend to gravitate together. As such, the gap only continues to widen.

Also casteism in the south is a big barrier. Generally upper caste people never marry down castes and they tend to be lighter skinned. Low caste South Indians may find it hard to find a light skinned bride because low castes in the south are generally quite dark skinned, including the women. They are much darker than African Americans, who have some euro admiix.

Personally I think itís a bit old minded and sad. I would never want my kids to be subjected to teasing based on the color of their skin.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-20-2018, 09:04 AM
It’s not just money. If your parents are lighter, you’ll be lighter on avg and lighter skinned people tend to gravitate together. As such, the gap only continues to widen.

Also casteism in the south is a big barrier. Generally upper caste people never marry down castes and they tend to be lighter skinned. Low caste South Indians may find it hard to find a light skinned bride because low castes in the south are generally quite dark skinned, including the women. They are much darker than African Americans, who have some euro admiix.

Personally I think it’s a bit old minded and sad. I would never want my kids to be subjected to teasing based on the color of their skin.

You look similar to this Punjabi Singer "propheC".

Censored
11-20-2018, 09:17 AM
You look similar to this Punjabi Singer "propheC".

Who do I look like?

26284729292
11-20-2018, 10:09 AM
You look similar to this Punjabi Singer "propheC".

You think so? I bump his music. “Feelin” is my fav song.

Ruderico
11-20-2018, 10:49 AM
Lol, that's darker than me. Portuguese people seem to have a Mediterranean skintone similar to say Ryan Giggs who is Welsh (actually lighter than Giggsy on average). Of course, Poles, as an ethnic group are much lighter, but genetics/climate/diet etc can also be factors that may not necessarily visualize in phenotype or vice versa. Though, this study seems a bit dubious from a cursory look, but of course the experts know best.

That man is quite noticebly heavily tanned, I suppose that's a tourist guide and that Lukasz visited the islands during the Summer - in which case I'd be suprised if he wasn't tanned as UV ratiadion can get pretty high - even today they have a 4 on the UV scale. Here (https://i.postimg.cc/nLJ49TwG/pes.png)'s a quick example of my untanned feet for comparison, using only natural light. The point I'm trying to make is that tanning can have a very strong impact on how we precieve human pigmentation to be. If you want to make a scientific-ish study on human pigmentation, naturally you have to minimised sources of variation by using areas that are as untanned as possible, and those results might not be what you'd generally expect, with people being much closer than we'd think. Not that I'm saying Iberians are lighter than Poles, I don't think that's the case - nor do I care to be honest.



I'd also like to add that islanders - particularly Madeirans - have a wierd reputation on these forums, but they really don't differ much/at all form continental Portuguese. The man on this photo (https://www.vip.pt/sites/default/files/styles/slider/public/vip-pt-35550-noticia-casados-primeira-vista-novo-casamento-e-sogra-infeliz-vamos-la-ver-e-no-fim.jpg?itok=MmS1IGYK&995986054) is form Madeira, whereas the woman in from just north of Lisbon. These two (https://cdn4.flash.pt/images/2018-10/img_828x523$2018_10_25_15_42_42_166495.png) are northerners from Porto.

RougeS
11-20-2018, 11:35 AM
In bihar sharma pandit and thakur surname is used by dalits and obcs mostly. Bihars 5 general uppercastes are brahmins, bhumihar brahmin, rajputs , kayastha and baniya(vaishya)
True.Sharma is also used by Badhai people(Vishwakarmas/OBC) in Bihar/MP/UP/West Bengal.

DMXX
11-20-2018, 05:47 PM
It's pretty common for people to have naturally darker areas around the axillae and groin. The armpit doesn't strike me as an anatomically suitable place to sample for pigmentation due to that. I wouldn't put much stock in these findings as a result.

lukaszM
11-20-2018, 08:10 PM
That man is quite noticebly heavily tanned, I suppose that's a tourist guide and that Lukasz visited the islands during the Summer - in which case I'd be suprised if he wasn't tanned as UV ratiadion can get pretty high - even today they have a 4 on the UV scale. Here (https://i.postimg.cc/nLJ49TwG/pes.png)'s a quick example of my untanned feet for comparison, using only natural light. The point I'm trying to make is that tanning can have a very strong impact on how we precieve human pigmentation to be. If you want to make a scientific-ish study on human pigmentation, naturally you have to minimised sources of variation by using areas that are as untanned as possible, and those results might not be what you'd generally expect, with people being much closer than we'd think. Not that I'm saying Iberians are lighter than Poles, I don't think that's the case - nor do I care to be honest.



I'd also like to add that islanders - particularly Madeirans - have a wierd reputation on these forums, but they really don't differ much/at all form continental Portuguese. The man on this photo (https://www.vip.pt/sites/default/files/styles/slider/public/vip-pt-35550-noticia-casados-primeira-vista-novo-casamento-e-sogra-infeliz-vamos-la-ver-e-no-fim.jpg?itok=MmS1IGYK&995986054) is form Madeira, whereas the woman in from just north of Lisbon. These two (https://cdn4.flash.pt/images/2018-10/img_828x523$2018_10_25_15_42_42_166495.png) are northerners from Porto.

My point was only that on this particular Melanin Index position of Poland is too high. Randomly they use Portugal also (why not Spain or Belarus) so discussion was about this country, that's it.
I agree this guide was tanned and agree in every Euro population we have phenotypcial variability. But you probably agree that we have pigmentation cline in Europe (north - south) and this index is contradiction to common knowledge. As nobody classify Poland in this respect as country between Portugal and Italy. It doesn't mean it is bad or good to be darker or lighter, but simply those positions of Euro pops on Index are againt phenotypical reality. I can post for example Biasutti skin color map but there is no point for it, as it is well known fact.

parasar
11-20-2018, 08:49 PM
In bihar sharma pandit and thakur surname is used by dalits and obcs mostly. Bihars 5 general uppercastes are brahmins, bhumihar brahmin, rajputs , kayastha and baniya(vaishya)

In our family we have all three titles Sharma, Pandit (honorific), and Thakur.
Thakur is especially common among Maithil Brahmans.
Eg "MAHESH THAKUR, Raja of Darbhanga, he was granted title of Raja and Darbhanga Raj by Akbar, married and had issue. He died 1558."
http://members.iinet.net.au/~royalty/ips/d/darbhanga.html

poi
11-20-2018, 10:29 PM
In our family we have all three titles Sharma, Pandit (honorific), and Thakur.
Thakur is especially common among Maithil Brahmans.
Eg "MAHESH THAKUR, Raja of Darbhanga, he was granted title of Raja and Darbhanga Raj by Akbar, married and had issue. He died 1558."
http://members.iinet.net.au/~royalty/ips/d/darbhanga.html

Interesting, so this begs the questions -- wth are they testing "melanin index" on "Bihari Sharma" etc., if they are relatively arbitrary titles?

In ours, Sharma is something people changed their surnames to for no specific reasons, while Pandit is occupational (and somebody changed theirs to it generations ago), while Thakuri is exclusively Chettri.

parasar
11-20-2018, 10:39 PM
Interesting, so this begs the questions -- wth are they testing "melanin index" on "Bihari Sharma" etc., if they are relatively arbitrary titles?

In ours, Sharma is something people changed their surnames to for no specific reasons, while Pandit is occupational (and somebody changed theirs to it generations ago), while Thakuri is exclusively Chettri.

Traditionally you are correct.
But now a days folk have just picked these titles. And as purohit noted, their SC or OBC designation confirms that.

http://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skin2.png

Bruma
11-20-2018, 11:43 PM
Being Portuguese from the Azores I can’t tell the difference between islanders and continental Portuguese only when they open their mouths I can tell due to the accent here.

If your wondering what the accent sounds like imagine a French speaker speaking fluent Portuguese here it’s called Micalense

26284729292
11-21-2018, 02:27 AM
Traditionally you are correct.
But now a days folk have just picked these titles. And as purohit noted, their SC or OBC designation confirms that.

http://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skin2.png

In Tamil Nadu there are no designated Brahmin surnames besides iyer and iyengar. I know people who are low caste from there who lie about being Brahmin. One very affluent Tamil OBC family i know perform pujas and rituals and wear the thread and say they are ďculturally BrahminĒ.

Censored
11-21-2018, 02:39 AM
In Tamil Nadu there are no designated Brahmin surnames besides iyer and iyengar. I know people who are low caste from there who lie about being Brahmin. One very affluent Tamil OBC family i know perform pujas and rituals and wear the thread and say they are “culturally Brahmin”.

I honestly do wonder about this. It seems like every Hindu person I've met has claimed to be Brahmin. Perhaps there's an over-representation of them in the states but I can also see a lot of people lying about caste to have some respect in inter-Indian circles.

poi
11-21-2018, 04:59 AM
I honestly do wonder about this. It seems like every Hindu person I've met has claimed to be Brahmin. Perhaps there's an over-representation of them in the states but I can also see a lot of people lying about caste to have some respect in inter-Indian circles.

Why would anyone lie though? If you interact with mostly South Indians, I can also say that Southern Brahmins are everywhere. Gujarati Patels and Tamil Brahmins.

26284729292
11-21-2018, 05:08 AM
I honestly do wonder about this. It seems like every Hindu person I've met has claimed to be Brahmin. Perhaps there's an over-representation of them in the states but I can also see a lot of people lying about caste to have some respect in inter-Indian circles.

In the states, with all due respect, ive met plenty of liars re:this. I think people don’t understand that Brahmin is a term describing a regional genetic group, not a way of life or the sign of a devout Hindu.
I don’t ascribe to a Brahmin supremacy complex but I find it pretty pathetic that people lie about who they are. If you don’t like it, don’t lie about it. Just don’t talk about it.It’s funny because I know people who say they don’t ascribe to the caste system, but make fun of me for being South Indian.

26284729292
11-21-2018, 05:08 AM
Why would anyone lie though? If you interact with mostly South Indians, I can also say that Southern Brahmins are everywhere. Gujarati Patels and Tamil Brahmins.


There’s plenty of incentive. It seems stupid but believe me I’ve seen it.

Censored
11-21-2018, 05:27 AM
There’s plenty of incentive. It seems stupid but believe me I’ve seen it.

Oh yeah, there's a lot of subtle racism on top of the overt type. People are constantly implying that X group is superior/better looking than the other. In this case, it manifests in the form of people thinking northies/upper castes are better. I vaguely remember my mom bragging about how some woman told her that she looked "north Indian", and quite frankly she doesn't...like at all. It's a fake compliment and that too, one based on implicit racism. And obviously, people are going to want to adapt to such racism by lying about their own origins.

agent_lime
11-21-2018, 08:35 AM
In Tamil Nadu there are no designated Brahmin surnames besides iyer and iyengar. I know people who are low caste from there who lie about being Brahmin. One very affluent Tamil OBC family i know perform pujas and rituals and wear the thread and say they are “culturally Brahmin”.

I know Tamil families in Delhi who claim they are Brahmins. Most of them I suspect lie. One guy is a best friend of a friend his whole identity is being better than everyone because he is a Brahmin. I really doubt he is a Brahmin, most probably he is an agricultural caste. He is also the same coloring as Sub Saharan Africans.

kush
11-21-2018, 10:53 AM
In Tamil Nadu there are no designated Brahmin surnames besides iyer and iyengar. I know people who are low caste from there who lie about being Brahmin. One very affluent Tamil OBC family i know perform pujas and rituals and wear the thread and say they are “culturally Brahmin”.

are you talking about the vishwakarmas?

26284729292
11-21-2018, 11:39 AM
are you talking about the vishwakarmas?

Doubtful, though I know what you’re getting at. I know his dad. He said they’re pulliyar.

26284729292
11-21-2018, 11:44 AM
I know Tamil families in Delhi who claim they are Brahmins. Most of them I suspect lie. One guy is a best friend of a friend his whole identity is being better than everyone because he is a Brahmin. I really doubt he is a Brahmin, most probably he is an agricultural caste. He is also the same coloring as Sub Saharan Africans.

I know Indians are diverse, but most people in the state are at least 50-60% AASI. Even the darkest Brahmins I’ve met do not look like Tamils in the traditional sense, how you describe them.

Also to be fair, we don’t know how endogenous all tambrams are as a whole. And marrying out in Tamil Nadu will change your genotype way more than say in Punjab, which subsequently will change your pheno. I would love genetic samples of rural tambrams vs ones in cities. The results will be quite different I imagine.

It’s a south Asian thing to seem more respected to lie about things like this. Unfortunate but true.

pnb123
11-21-2018, 08:33 PM
In our community, darker tone(all else being the same) is not necessarily seen as bad by the elders. They say "uni gori chen, ramri chen" (she is light skinned, she is beautiful), or "uni kali chen, hissi pareki chen" (she is dark, she is delightful). The older generation does have obsession over eyes though... have slightly East Asian eyes and they sort of freak out. It is probably because, in my native country, eye shape is the only way of distinguishing us from other hill groups. Nose is close second. A bahun with roundish nose and older folks(atleast in the hills) start questioning.

Areas untouched by colonialism probably don’t give much emphasis on skin tone. Most people in our community care about caste and nothing else (maybe family status) when it comes to marriage. For skin tone, I’ve seen a lot of diversity. I’ve also seen lighter parents producing darker kids. And darker parents producing lighter kids. But one thing that’s common among both darker and lighter individuals is red undertone. Actually I was just observing my little cousins playing out & they all had that “red-rosy” cheeks despite having variations in skin tone. I would say there’s healthy diversity of skin tone among us.

I know songs that use “kale-kali” etc in lyrics.These words are also used as nicknames for children, despite their skin tone. Overall, I think some people might have slight preference for light skin, but being dark skinned generally isn’t seen as bad thing (not a deal breaker for marriage lol).

Rahuls77
11-21-2018, 11:09 PM
In the states, with all due respect, ive met plenty of liars re:this. I think people donít understand that Brahmin is a term describing a regional genetic group, not a way of life or the sign of a devout Hindu.
I donít ascribe to a Brahmin supremacy complex but I find it pretty pathetic that people lie about who they are. If you donít like it, donít lie about it. Just donít talk about it.Itís funny because I know people who say they donít ascribe to the caste system, but make fun of me for being South Indian.

I found out my 'caste' when I was 12, by reading a form that had a caste field on a form. Not that this was concealed, but this was never really the highlight, while growing up. In fact, this became pronounced only after the 1990's. And previously under influence of Bollywood, did our Potohari folks, who had migrated to this side of the divide in 1947, begin to adopt some of the ways and manners of the Hindus of the Hindi heartland, such as observing the fast of santoshi mata, made popular by a mere film. Religion was prominent in their lives, as can be seen from a lot of temples you still find in Rawalpindi and in its outskirts, however it was never dominated so much by traditions and rituals you find elsewhere in the Subcontinent. The highest taboo was to eat meat on Tuesdays. And the family had friends from a lot of communities, Niazi uncle(Muslim from Bhopal), The Jamsheds (Gujrati Parsis, whose religion and observances impressed my Late Grandmother the most), Dr Akbar Ali Hyderi(the renowned Shia scholar from Srinagar), I grew up with all kinds. Our roots, according to my Grandmother, were Potohari and it our most important identity. And a few Pakistanis that I have met, I feel a lot closer to them than a lot of Indians, including the Punjabis. Probably caste in the Potohar countryside had died a long time ago. What lived on was the clan and bit biradari identity.

Rahuls77
11-21-2018, 11:11 PM
Areas untouched by colonialism probably don’t give much emphasis on skin tone. Most people in our community care about caste and nothing else (maybe family status) when it comes to marriage. For skin tone, I’ve seen a lot of diversity. I’ve also seen lighter parents producing darker kids. And darker parents producing lighter kids. But one thing that’s common among both darker and lighter individuals is red undertone. Actually I was just observing my little cousins playing out & they all had that “red-rosy” cheeks despite having variations in skin tone. I would say there’s healthy diversity of skin tone among us.

I know songs that use “kale-kali” etc in lyrics.These words are also used as nicknames for children, despite their skin tone. Overall, I think some people might have slight preference for light skin, but being dark skinned generally isn’t seen as bad thing (not a deal breaker for marriage lol).

Indians have a major league obsession with pigmentation, and to an extent pigmentation affinity is natural, however colonisation has given the land a grotesque kind of inferiority complex.

26284729292
11-21-2018, 11:21 PM
I found out my 'caste' when I was 12, by reading a form that had a caste field on a form. Not that this was concealed, but this was never really the highlight, while growing up. In fact, this became pronounced only after the 1990's. And previously under influence of Bollywood, did our Potohari folks, who had migrated to this side of the divide in 1947, begin to adopt some of the ways and manners of the Hindus of the Hindi heartland, such as observing the fast of santoshi mata, made popular by a mere film. Religion was prominent in their lives, as can be seen from a lot of temples you still find in Rawalpindi and in its outskirts, however it was never dominated so much by traditions and rituals you find elsewhere in the Subcontinent. The highest taboo was to eat meat on Tuesdays. And the family had friends from a lot of communities, Niazi uncle(Muslim from Bhopal), The Jamsheds (Gujrati Parsis, whose religion and observances impressed my Late Grandmother the most), Dr Akbar Ali Hyderi(the renowned Shia scholar from Srinagar), I grew up with all kinds. Our roots, according to my Grandmother, were Potohari and it our most important identity. And a few Pakistanis that I have met, I feel a lot closer to them than a lot of Indians, including the Punjabis. Probably caste in the Potohar countryside had died a long time ago. What lived on was the clan and bit biradari identity.

Beautiful story man. I’m all for this. Culture >> everything else. Life is not a measuring contest.

Ruderico
11-23-2018, 10:43 AM
It's pretty common for people to have naturally darker areas around the axillae and groin. The armpit doesn't strike me as an anatomically suitable place to sample for pigmentation due to that. I wouldn't put much stock in these findings as a result.

I don't think it's the armpit itself, but rather the area beneath it - so the sides of the lower chest area, in contact with the arm - but don't quote me on it