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View Full Version : From R-L23/L150 to R-PF7580 & L584



Joe B
11-14-2013, 04:04 AM
Geno 2.0 uses R-PF7580 as a haplogroup defining SNP that is rebranded R-L150 by FTDNA. Do we have a good idea where R-PF7580 fits on the R1b-Z2103 phylogenetic branch? My guess is M269>L23>L150>Z2103>PF7580>L584>L943* with the next step testing L584 as positive or negative would be informative. That sound right for #271988?


N113044 Aghinitei Romania R1b1a2a1 PF7580, Geno2.0 12 25 13 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 12 31

N10795 Carnevali Italy R1b1a2a1 PF7580, Geno2.0 12 25 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30

271988 Goldschlager Ukraine R1b1a2 PF7580, Geno2.0 12 24 14 11 11-13 12 12 13 13 13 29

45475 Silver Germany R1b1a2a1 L584+, PF7580, Geno2.0 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30

Goldschlager
12-09-2013, 04:54 PM
Just got a L584+ (kit 271988). Wonder if BigY will allow some progress (due end of Feb 2014)

G

Rathna
12-09-2013, 06:04 PM
Just got a L584+ (kit 271988). Wonder if BigY will allow some progress (due end of Feb 2014)

G

Of course it will be interesting if one person close to you (Silver for instance or another one) does the same test and your results will be able to be compared, and to be compared with another person not close to you. But this test will be able also to verify if my hypothesis about your far MRCA is true: at the level of the SNPs you should have many mismatches. In the Full Y it seems that a SNP does mean about 90/100 years. I don't know how many years in the Big Y, which tests only a part of the Y.

smal
12-09-2013, 06:32 PM
There are five Z2103 sequences from the 1000 genomes project with the therminal SNPs:
Z2106, Z2107 - NA20532
CTS7763, CTS8966 - NA18645
Z2108, Z2109 - NA20866
CTS7822/Z2110 - HG01277
CTS9212 - HG01515

But there are no sequences for the L584 and L277 branches. Now we will have the L584 sequence. That's great. We also really need to have the L277 sequence to construct a correct tree of the Z2103 branch.

Joe B
12-09-2013, 08:37 PM
SNPs CTS1848 and PF3449 are found with #45475(Silver) but not #271988(Goldschlager) or the other two PF7580 kits. Would that mean those SNPs are downstream of L584 similar to L943, L944, L945, & L946?


@Goldschlager,
Thanks for your commitment. Talk about fast progress. With your close str matches a simple L584 SNP test will be an easy confirmation.

Rathna
12-09-2013, 09:19 PM
There are five Z2103 sequences from the 1000 genomes project with the therminal SNPs:
Z2106, Z2107 - NA20532
CTS7763, CTS8966 - NA18645
Z2108, Z2109 - NA20866
CTS7822/Z2110 - HG01277
CTS9212 - HG01515

But there are no sequences for the L584 and L277 branches. Now we will have the L584 sequence. That's great. We also really need to have the L277 sequence to construct a correct tree of the Z2103 branch.

NA20532 is a Tuscan and probably Z2106 and Z2107 are the two SNPs intermediate between Z2105 and Z2110 which Richard Rocca spoke about, thus the Tuscan is ancestor of all the Z2110, which are the great part of the Eastern Europeans tested so far or presupposed.
I am a Tuscan and am Z2105+ but L277- and L584-. I am waiting, already from more than two months, my Chromo2, to know my position as to the SNPs tested there and I spoke about in other threads.
Carnevali, from The Marches (nearby Tuscany), is PF7580, and now that Goldschlager has been tested L584+, this intermediate haplotype between Z2105 and L584 seems of exclusively European origin.
I don't know where NA20866 comes from, because the Tuscans in my spreadsheet arrived till NA20828, but other Tuscans were added. Anyway this sample has the SNPs Z2108 and Z2109.
If we exclude CTS7822/Z2110 - HG01277, SNP well tested and diffused above all in Eastern Europe, it seems that the other two samples (CTS7763, CTS8966 - NA18645 and CTS9212 - HG0151) are above all private ones.
This to say what? That from these data seems that Tuscany (and Italy) gets the most ancient sample of R-Z2105+, which is just my theory of the Italian Refugium. We'll see next if other data confirm my theory.

Goldschlager
12-09-2013, 09:33 PM
SNPs CTS1848 and PF3449 are found with #45475(Silver) but not #271988(Goldschlager) or the other two PF7580 kits. Would that mean those SNPs are downstream of L584 similar to L943, L944, L945, & L946?


@Goldschlager,
Thanks for your commitment. Talk about fast progress. With your close str matches a simple L584 SNP test will be an easy confirmation.

I have following close matches: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] distance 6.
I could attempt to write some and suggest the L584 test. Would it matter the genetic distance?
Actually could a project request this?

smal
12-10-2013, 06:36 AM
I don't know where NA20866 comes from...

NA18645 - CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing, China)
NA20532 - TSI (Toscani in Italia)
NA20866 - GIH (Gujarati Indian in Houston, TX)
HG01277 - CLM (Colombian in Medellin, Colombia)
HG01515 - IBS (Iberian populations in Spain)

And the Z2103 tree of the 1000 genomes (yellow) and Geno 2.0 (green) tested samples.

http://s004.radikal.ru/i207/1312/47/873bb5d9cd1e.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/83e6c2b0a94545479c54ead14119412f)

Rathna
12-10-2013, 07:42 AM
NA18645 - CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing, China)
NA20532 - TSI (Toscani in Italia)
NA20866 - GIH (Gujarati Indian in Houston, TX)
HG01277 - CLM (Colombian in Medellin, Colombia)
HG01515 - IBS (Iberian populations in Spain)

And the Z2103 tree of the 1000 genomes (yellow) and Geno 2.0 (green) tested samples.

http://s004.radikal.ru/i207/1312/47/873bb5d9cd1e.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/83e6c2b0a94545479c54ead14119412f)

Great work, Smal. I don't see in your tree Z2102, which seems tested by Chromo2. Perhaps it is ancestor to Z2103/Z2105. We'll see where I (Gioiello Tognoni del Badia: H1614) will be put.
About NA18645 - CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing, China) and other Huis in China and their possible origin from Roman soldiers I have written a lot in the past.

smal
12-10-2013, 09:18 AM
I don't see in your tree Z2102, which seems tested by Chromo2. Perhaps it is ancestor to Z2103/Z2105.

From ISOGG YBrowse
Z2102
ChrY:23866106..23866106 (+ strand)
A to T
Approx hg: I-M223

I have checked few sequences from the Z2103 and L51 branches. All of them have "A" in this position. So, this is really SNP of another clade (probably I-M223).

Rathna
12-10-2013, 11:42 AM
It is very interesting that the Chinese Han of 1KGP (NA18645) is closely linked to the Armenian Kassabian (164226), thus our haplogroup has nothing to do with Central and East Asia: there was brought recently, like the mtDNA K3 found in China but come probably from Caucasus. Thus the problem of the origin is between Alps and Caucasus, as it was clear for me already from so long.
The same I have written about the Hui haplotype which matches closely mine, and I supposed a descendant of one of the Roman soldiers of the Crassus Army defeated at Carrhae on 53 BC. 10,000 of them were deported to Merv and after some of them fought with White Huns against Chinese.

Joe B
12-11-2013, 03:04 AM
I have following close matches: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] distance 6.
I could attempt to write some and suggest the L584 test. Would it matter the genetic distance?
Actually could a project request this?
Genetic distance is important. Which STR marker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Y-STR_markers) that match or not is more important. Mutation rates (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=7#1359) vary by marker. Eyes on an individual's STRs and your judgement is more reliable than the FTDNA distance calculators. A good example can be found in the Jewish R1b Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) in the ungrouped section where L21 and L584 have very similar haplotypes. Distances of 5 or 6 could be iffy.

In your case it's fairly easy to find likely close matches in the projects. Even if they do not have 67 STRs
Jewish R1b Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b,JewishR1b,JewishR1b/default.aspx)
German Jewish Gersig DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GermanJewishGersig/default.aspx)
Jews of Frankfurt (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jews_of_Frankfurt/default.aspx?section=goals)
SHAPIRO (also SPEYER, SPIER, SPIRA) DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Shapiro/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)
The last two projects look abandoned. Googling kit# FTDNA lists what other project they may belong to.

Project managers hopefully would encourage members to test for L584. Your testing and commitment give you a certain amount of credibility too. Contact people directly it you can. You are doing people a big favor with your testing and have a specific reason for them to test. The least they can do is a L584 SNP test.

Humanist has the most experience with getting people tested for L584 or L943. Check out the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=ysnp) SNP page and you will see L584 or L943 results.

This shows some of his work.

I cannot speak for the Armenian project, but in the Assyrian project most of the members of the project are ethnic Assyrians living in the United States and other countries outside of the Middle East. In the R1b category, in the Assyrian Project, however, the men from Lebanon are not ethnic Assyrians. I maintain a separate sheet, containing all haplotypes of ethnic Assyrian R1b men, including both FTDNA and other data (e.g. SMGF) (please see below). The Aramaic Project contains data for people that currently speak a dialect of Aramaic as their vernacular (i.e. Assyrians), or may have at one time spoken an Aramaic dialect (e.g. Jews).

Twelve-marker haplotypes for all R-M269 Assyrians that I am aware of. Almost all of them are from the "Nestorian" church. Most participants in the project, as previously mentioned, are from the "Nestorian" church. The smallest of the three churches.

Code:
A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
H 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26 L584
I 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
J 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
L 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584

Rathna
12-11-2013, 06:29 AM
A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

I ask Humanist if these haplotypes not L584 are tested for L277, above all those with DYS392=14.
I have demonstrated on many fora that all the Jewish R-L23 with
DYS389I=13
DYS392=14
DYS389II=28
are R-L277+.

Humanist
12-16-2013, 06:27 AM
A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28 Northwest, Iraq.
B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 <-- I have speculated that this man may be L277. Barwar, Iraq.
C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27 L277+ ("L405" man from 23andMe). Tiyari, Turkey.
D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

I ask Humanist if these haplotypes not L584 are tested for L277, above all those with DYS392=14.
I have demonstrated on many fora that all the Jewish R-L23 with
DYS389I=13
DYS392=14
DYS389II=28
are R-L277+.

My notes are in blue, above.

If you are looking to sponsor their testing for L277, you are more than welcome to donate to the Assyrian Project. L277 SNP testing is $49.

Rathna
12-16-2013, 08:44 AM
My notes are in blue, above.

If you are looking to sponsor their testing for L277, you are more than welcome to donate to the Assyrian Project. L277 SNP testing is $49.

Humanist, L405+ is a mutation of hg. P that we all have from a G to C. L584+ is a second mutation of that C to T (I am quoting by memory), thus to be L405+ should mean not to be L584+.
I have no doubt that all your haplotypes with DYS392=14 are L277+. The unique haplotype that would merit to be tested is this
G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
for having DYS392=13. On another thread I have published an Argentinian haplotype (of probably Italian origin) that matches the haplotype of Manno (R-L277+) but with DYS392=13.
Of course we may hypothesize that, even though DYS392=14 is modal in L277+, some mutations may have happened. The scarcity of mutations should be for a recent origin of this subclade, even though from your haplotypes we may see that there is a high variation.
I'll study this haplotype. You know that, not having at my disposal an FTDNA or other firm, I have to study the haplotypes for constructing my theories. If I'll think that your haplotype and to know its SNP will be important for my theories, I won't have any problem to contribute to its test.

Humanist
12-16-2013, 09:00 AM
Humanist, L405+ is a mutation of hg. P that we all have from a G to C. L584+ is a second mutation of that C to T (I am quoting by memory), thus to be L405+ should mean not to be L584+.

Thank you, Rathna. Apologies. It has been a couple of years since the Adriano Squecco sheets, L405/L584, etc. But, my error in the specific SNP notwithstanding, Mezdo (the man from Tyari) was in the same lot as Burkholder, the Armenian L277 and others. And his STR values do not give me reason to believe he is not L277. If I have some spare money to test him, I will. But, I would rather test the man from Barwar, Iraq, if I do test any man for L277 soon.

Rathna
12-16-2013, 09:08 AM
The unique haplotype that would merit to be tested is this
G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
for having DYS392=13.

But if the haplotype is this
147979 Hermes Iraq R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-21 18 15 18 17 35-37 12 11 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 18 10 12 12 16 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
it has already been put amongst the L584+.
From its series
8 10 10 8 11 11
11 13 11 11 12 12
I'd say: R-L584+.

Rathna
12-16-2013, 10:17 AM
But, I would rather test the man from Barwar, Iraq, if I do test any man for L277 soon.

190249 Sada Iraq R1b1a2
12 23 12 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Of course this haplotype is completely an outlier, but the presence of some series like
13 14 28
8 10 10 8 10 10
11 13 11 11 12 12
put it in the R-L277+ range. That it matches in other series other haplotypes of L277+ with an high Mutation Rate shouldn't mean that those aren't mutated, but they may be due to convergent mutations.

The problem for me is another, i.e., whereas I am pretty sure that L584+ finds its ancient origin in Italy or Europe through the intermediate SNP PF7580, L277+ seems not having an intermediate SNP since Z2103/Z2105 and is diffused overall between India and Western Europe. Thus to understand its origin will be able to give some light also on the origin of R-Z2103/Z2105+.

Rathna
12-16-2013, 10:40 AM
I think that from these samples Sada is linked to the Caucasian area:

GVQAS Sada Iraq
12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9 10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15 15 15 18 11 12 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 38 12 12
HPUT8 Georgia Unknown
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 14 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 12 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 37 12 12
P9N8S Anas Turkey
12 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15 15 15 16 10 12 19 22 16 16 17 17 36 38 11 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 11

P.S. We may also reconstruct the modal of their MRCA about 60 generations ago:
12 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 15 17 11 12 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 38 12 12
and this could explain also some weird mutations as multistep ones, probably due to the age of the father.

Joe B
12-30-2013, 05:47 PM
From the another thread.

Dear Joe, my maternal granfather is R1b-L584 and Z2103 is typical for our region. Therefore I try to learn about Z2103 as much as it is possible.
Let me show you another tree:

1137

You are definetly from old European branch. Let us talk about it in a related topic, not here.
Farroukh,
This thread temporarily has the most recent findings concerning R1b-L584 phylogeny. The most important news right now concerns SNP PF7580 that is found on the Genographic 2.0 snp array test. Hopefully the other products like Chromo 2 and the Big Y will help figure out this subclade of R1b-Z2103.
I think this is where we are at with R1b-L584.
L584* R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>PF7580>L584 L943-
L943* R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>PF7580>L584>L943*
CTS1848 and PF3449 placement is unclear. Could this be the order? L584>CTS1848>PF3449>L943*?
Thank your grandfather for his participation!

P.S. Saw that you added a L277 group to the Azeri project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults). That was quick!
Should have mentioned Chris Morley's Experimental Y-SNP Phylogenies (http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny) and Y-SNP Subclade Predictor (beta) (http://ytree.morleydna.com/) as very useful tools for all the Y haplogroups. Chris lets us know when it is updated.
I've released an updated phylogeny (8 October 2013), in advance of this weekend's FTDNA conference.
As before, http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny is the preferred link. Rather than a direct link to the PDF.
Welcome Aboard

Goldschlager
01-11-2014, 03:24 PM
My upgrade to Y DNA 111 was completed. Results are on various projects, e.g.http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b1b2&section=ycolorized. -- also not clear to me why I am in the shown subgroup since L584 is +


As expected did not result in any breakthrough on my matches. The only match which went to 111 moved from 6 to 9 steps. Perhaps will help the experts while waiting for the BigY.

Joe B
04-18-2014, 10:13 PM
My upgrade to Y DNA 111 was completed. Results are on various projects, e.g.http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b1b2§ion=ycolorized. -- also not clear to me why I am in the shown subgroup since L584 is +


As expected did not result in any breakthrough on my matches. The only match which went to 111 moved from 6 to 9 steps. Perhaps will help the experts while waiting for the BigY.
The R1b1a2 and Subclades (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b1b2&vgroup=r1b1b2&section=ycolorized) project is out of date and superseded by the R1b and Subclades Gateway Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx). The R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) correctly places you in the _b1. R1b1a2a2a: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ (Armenian, Assyrian, Jewish, Alevi, Laz, Ukrainian) section.

@Goldschlager......What's the word on your Big Y?

AJL
04-18-2014, 11:52 PM
My upgrade to Y DNA 111 was completed. Results are on various projects, e.g.http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b1b2§ion=ycolorized. -- also not clear to me why I am in the shown subgroup since L584 is +


As expected did not result in any breakthrough on my matches. The only match which went to 111 moved from 6 to 9 steps. Perhaps will help the experts while waiting for the BigY.

I suspect L584 in Jews is potentially pre-Diaspora; one of my lines is Sephardi L584, modal from three cousins is Ysearch RS5ZY. What's your GD to that?

Goldschlager
04-19-2014, 02:27 PM
My Ysearch code is WC5ZP. I got BigY results and will get the BAM file in two weeks and will send it to the site which does analysis.. I did not see L584 among the tested SNPs. And I am hoping some of the projects managers for several R1B etc projects will take a look to results.

brygian
04-19-2014, 04:41 PM
The R1b1a2 and Subclades (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b1b2&vgroup=r1b1b2§ion=ycolorized) project is out of date and superseded by the R1b and Subclades Gateway Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx). The R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) correctly places you in the _b1. R1b1a2a2a: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ (Armenian, Assyrian, Jewish, Alevi, Laz, Ukrainian) section.

The R1b and Subclades Gateway Project is not very well maintained either. I've been a part of the project for months and am still in the ungrouped section. Have sent e-mails to the admins but nothing has changed. I have discussed creating a new group for Z2103, Z2105 with some people when such SNP tests become available at FTDNA.

AJL
04-19-2014, 05:06 PM
Thanks -- that's a very large GD of 27 but I see you have probable ties to the Shapiro/Spira/Spier/etc. group.

Joe B
04-19-2014, 09:32 PM
My Ysearch code is WC5ZP. I got BigY results and will get the BAM file in two weeks and will send it to the site which does analysis.. I did not see L584 among the tested SNPs. And I am hoping some of the projects mangagers for several R1B etc projects will take a look to results.
I have no doubt that the right people will be taking a very close look at your Big Y results. You have more data than any other R1b-L584. Until they chime-in, here's a couple of things.
Big Y not covering L584 is disappointing. Thank you for taking that leap of faith and testing for L584 when did. This is from ISOGG Haplogroup R Private SNPs, Notes and Papers - 2014 (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpRPrivNotes.html)
"L405/L584 (ChrY:27141305) is a triallelic SNP with allele values "A", "C", and "T". A value of "A" indicates haplogroup Y(xP) and is referred to as L405-. A value of "C" indicates haplogroup P and is referred to as L405+ and a value of "T" indicates haplogroup R1b1a2a1c and is referred to as L584+."
ISOGG YBrowse - L584 http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?name=ChrY%3A28731917..28731917
L584 Details http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=28731917;end=28731917;name=L58 4;class=Sequence;feature_id=72373;db_id=chrY%3Adat abase I wonder it that has anything to do with Big Y missing L584?
Here's a couple of items from your data. Is Z2105+, Z2106- new information for R1b-L584 or confirming what was already known? Snapshot of the Z2103 tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=26401&viewfull=1#post26401)


Type Position SNPName Derived OnTree Reference-Genotype Confidence
Known SNP Z2105 Yes(+) No C A High
Known SNP Z2106 No(-) No G G High
Known SNP CTS7340 ? No T ? Unknown Z2107
Known SNP Z2108 No(-) No C C High
Known SNP CTS1843 No(-) No T T High Z2109
Known SNP CTS7822 No(-) No A A High Z2110
Known SNP CTS9219 No(-) No G G High
Known SNP L277 No(-) No T T High
Known SNP PF7580 Yes(+) No C A High
Known SNP L583 No(-) No C C High
Known SNP L585 Yes(+) No A A High
Known SNP L943 No(-) No T T High
Known SNP L944 No(-) No T T High
Known SNP L945 No(-) No G G High
Known SNP L946 No(-) No T T High

The R1b and Subclades Gateway Project is not very well maintained either. I've been a part of the project for months and am still in the ungrouped section. Have sent e-mails to the admins but nothing has changed. I have discussed creating a new group for Z2103, Z2105 with some people when such SNP tests become available at FTDNA.This is outside the scope of this thread. For the record, the R1b and Subclades Gateway Project administators have been very heplful to our R1b-Z2103 subclade. In the future, I think you will come to the same conclusion. They do an awesome job of moving people to the correct haplogroup project. Keep that in mind if anybody decides to start a haplogroup project. Z2103 and Z2105 have been available from FTDNA for several years. Try the advanced testing menu. I understand the fustration with the lack of respect for R1b-CTS7822/Z2110>CTS9216. Getting listed on the ISOGG tree will be the best answer.

smal
04-20-2014, 09:05 AM
At the moment we have only a single BigY result (271988, Goldschlager) from L584+ branch. Fortunately, there is possibility to compare its with Assyrian 13750 data from Rootsi at al. 2013.

Level Z2103/Z2105
1) positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager
Z2103/CTS1078+, Z2105+, CTS9416+, Y:14629851+

2) positive for 271988 Goldschlager and unknown for 13750 Assyrian
S20902+

3) positive for 13750 Assyrian and unknown for 271988 Goldschlager
Z2104/PF7575?, Z2107/CTS7340?, PF7585?, Y:6687319?

Level PF7580/L584

1) positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager
PF7580+
L584+
Y:2814664+
Y:17673462+
Y:22625609+
Y:22656448+
Y:22659944+
Y:22625609+

Humanist
04-20-2014, 03:38 PM
At the moment we have only a single BigY result (271988, Goldschlager) from L584+ branch. Fortunately, there is possibility to compare its with Assyrian 13750 data from Rootsi at al. 2013.

Thank you very much for the analysis.

smal
04-21-2014, 07:04 AM
Rathna asks me about the Assyrian 13750 SNPs negative in Goldschlager.
From 45 SNPs specific for Assyrian 13750 from Rootsi at al. 2013 there are:
1) 8 positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager
2) 2 (L943 and L945) positive for 13750 Assyrian and negative for 271988 Goldschlager
3) 35 positive for 13750 Assyrian and unknown for 271988 Goldschlager. 25 of them are found in the regions designated in the .bed file but not included in .vcf file. The other 10 are probably not sequenced. Bam file could say more.

smal
04-22-2014, 12:38 PM
BigY FTDNA file of Goldschlager contains 154 SNPs designated as novel variants with respect to the reference sequence. The analysis has shown that
1) 90 of them are really located on the Z2103/Z2105 level or even are ancestral to this branch.
2) As I wrote above 6 SNPs are located on the L584/PF7580 level and shared with 13750 Assyrian.
3) the remaining 58 SNPs are at the moment unique to Goldschlager.

Joe B
04-23-2014, 05:40 AM
BigY FTDNA file of Goldschlager contains 154 SNPs designated as novel variants with respect to the reference sequence. The analysis has shown that
1) 90 of them are really located on the Z2103/Z2105 level or even are ancestral to this branch.
2) As I wrote above 6 SNPs are located on the L584/PF7580 level and shared with 13750 Assyrian.
3) the remaining 58 SNPs are at the moment unique to Goldschlager.
Anybody have thoughts on how we move this great information forward?
1) Would the some of those SNPs ancestral to Z2103/Z2105 be useful if compared to a Big Y tested L23-, L150+? 236409 Sobelman might be a good candidate. CTS7822/Z2110 N112116 Nochev from Pillar of Fire might be a good comparison too.
2) Those 6 SNPs located on the L584/PF7580 level shared with the Assyrian should really get Humanist attention. Hopefully some R1b-L584 haplotypes will test some of those SNPs in the future.
3) What is the best way to make use of the 58 unique Goldschlager SNPs?

Thanks -- that's a very large GD of 27 but I see you have probable ties to the Shapiro/Spira/Spier/etc. group.As AJL mentioned, some Shapiro DNA project members and a few others look very close to the Goldschlager haplotype. Short of another Big Y test, is it too soon to pick SNPs for testing that are downstream of L584? I ask this in light of a statement in a letter from YSEQ today.
YSEQ still offers this FREE service to evaluate your SNP candidates for molecular genetic stability. Just send us your list of markers and we'll check if we can predict possible problems with your SNP candidates. You can then reduce your list from problematic regions and you'll not waste your money on markers that have unstable phylogenetic properties. Send us your list and we'll give you a honest evaluation. Full letter: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2471-YSEQ-Early-Father-s-Day-SNP-Sale

Outstanding work smal.
Goldschlager - Y-DNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Goldschlager/default.aspx?section=ycolorized)
SHAPIRO (also SPEYER, SPIER, SPIRA) DNA Projec (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Shapiro)t

Joe B
04-23-2014, 03:52 PM
Are Turkmen and Bashkir R1b-L23 samples L584+ or L584-? Their haplotypes like Z2103+ and L277-. And how old is L584 snp? What do you think? We know that some are L584+. Congratulations on your L584+ result!

Goldschlager
04-25-2014, 09:59 PM
Please enlighten me: the current FTDNA Y tree labels me as R_YSC0000072 (old one was R-L150). But the main puzzle is the L584 for which I tested +, is not shown any longer in my SNP list ? See attached the FTDNA and Morley (kit 271988) trees.

Thanks
G

Joe B
04-26-2014, 12:23 AM
Please enlighten me: the current FTDNA Y tree labels me as R_YSC0000072 (old one was R-L150). But the main puzzle is the L584 for which I tested +, is not shown any longer in my SNP list ? See attached the FTDNA and Morley (kit 271988) trees.

Thanks
GNot sure what FTDNA did with that tree is worth enlightenment. R_YSC0000072 is phylogenetically nonsensical. At least they won't let you order it.
The Morley tree and for us especially, smal's phylogenetic work, have been and are the most enlightening.

Edit: Try scrolling to the bottom of the new tree. Do you see CTS7822 and the rest that are in blue? Your's may be in green. Thanks
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1778&d=1398484338

smal
04-27-2014, 10:55 AM
I've again compared 271988 Goldschlager and 13750 Assyrian from Rootsi at al. 2013 using BAM file now.

1) positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager - 9 SNPs
PF7580
L584
2814664
16199913
17673462
21902268
22625609
22656448
22659944

2) positive for 13750 Assyrian and negative for 271988 Goldschlager - 29 SNPs
L943
L945
6859835
14280728
14435758
14435833
14435836
14435840
14435843
14755656
16434295
16876807
17519409
17908789
18198704
18208017
19481521
21041064
21141559
21906574
22163442
22524540
22574969
22653977
23146120
23153727
23426173
28515252
28776998

3) positive for 13750 Assyrian and unknown (no reads) for 271988 Goldschlager
7297712
7346515
14109552
18987731
19562034
21745739
21847865

Joe B
06-02-2014, 04:55 AM
First new R1b-PF7580 from a Geno 2.0 test since......last November? That makes a total of five haplotypes that have tested PF7580+. Greece DNA Project and tested to 67 STRs #322281

brygian
06-02-2014, 05:10 PM
I can see seven more PF7580 public accounts on the Geno website. Several have transferred their data to FTDNA and can be found at the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project). The rest are from Sicily, Bulgaria, India and possibly Germany.

Joe B
06-03-2014, 05:09 PM
I can see seven more PF7580 public accounts on the Geno website. Several have transferred their data to FTDNA and can be found at the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project). The rest are from Sicily, Bulgaria, India and possibly Germany.Thanks for checking out the Geno 2.0 project, it's really been overlooked by many of us. Just realized that #322281 and myself share the first 12 STRs (coincidental) so I'll shoot him a note through FTDNA to tell him about Goldschlager's great testing, recruit him for the SNP L584 test and ask him to join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.

Goldschlager
06-04-2014, 12:09 AM
"I can see seven more PF7580 public accounts on the Geno website. Several have transferred their data to FTDNA and can be found at the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project). The rest are from Sicily, Bulgaria, India and possibly Germany."

brygian -- Please let me know how did you see this on Geno 2 site. All I could see on my page are the connected people represented by small circles but very few have added any "story".

Pillar_of_fire
06-04-2014, 06:10 AM
after logging in - Go to tab our story, then select browse all stories, then search by SNP in right box --> then you will see the stories of the samples positive for selected SNP.

Pillar_of_fire
06-04-2014, 08:37 PM
Just finalised SNP test order PF7585 for YSEQ 649 - FTDNA N112116 - Nochev

Joe B
06-04-2014, 09:39 PM
Just finalised SNP test order PF7585 for YSEQ 649 - FTDNA N112116 - Nochev
Thanks Fire. Please have Mr. Nochev join the 19 R1b-L23_Z2103 & Subclades Results for R1b-L23 Z2103-Z2110 and subclades phylogenetic tree group (http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=19) at YSEQ.

Joe B
06-04-2014, 09:59 PM
Thanks for checking out the Geno 2.0 project, it's really been overlooked by many of us. Just realized that #322281 and myself share the first 12 STRs (coincidental) so I'll shoot him a note through FTDNA to tell him about Goldschlager's great testing, recruit him for the SNP L584 test and ask him to join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.L584 is ordered. Thank you #322281! Your test will help define the relationship between L584 and PF7580.

Edit: Because only two have tested for both L584 and PF7580, both are positive, it is still unknown if every PF7580+ is also L584+. It just makes sense to test for L584 to be sure.
Thanks G

Goldschlager
07-09-2014, 01:05 AM
Geno 2.0 percentage of R-PF7580 is 0.1%. My maternal haplogroup appears more common: 0.7 %

Goldschlager
07-09-2014, 01:14 AM
Kit E4954 which is GD=1 at Y-67 with me (271988) has just got the result of L584 test. As expected it is +.

Joe B
07-09-2014, 03:46 AM
Kit E4954 which is GD=1 at Y-67 with me (271988) has just got the result of L584 test. As expected it is +.Good one for the Goldschlager project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Goldschlager/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). Please ask #E4954 to join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx).
#322281, a Geno 2.0 PF7580 haplotype from Greece, has tested L584+.
Thanks to both these gentlemen for testing L584.

Pillar_of_fire
08-11-2014, 10:02 PM
Just finalised SNP test order PF7585 for YSEQ 649 - FTDNA N112116 - Nochev

It took me some time to send the sample together with another one - sorry for the delay. The result is in and he is PF7585+

brygian
09-05-2014, 07:47 PM
I did a search on FTDNA about L943 and found:

L584+, L943+

205749 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 15 16 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 16 12 26 26 17 11 11 13 13 10 9 11 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 23 15 20 12 23 17 12 16 25 12 23 18 10 14 16 8 11 11
213562 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 24 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 15 18 17 35-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 12 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13

L943+

213562 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 24 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 15 18 17 35-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 12 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13

L584+, L943-

235098, 166322, 90492, 258253.

This isn't a very impressive amount of data but should be enough for listing L943 under L584 on the ISOGG tree. Maybe we should prepare a submission?

Humanist
09-05-2014, 08:14 PM
This isn't a very impressive amount of data but should be enough for listing L943 under L584 on the ISOGG tree. Maybe we should prepare a submission?

Regarding L943. The men who are derived for L943 include two Assyrians and one Cohanim Jewish man, as far as I know. From another thread:


Hi Mike. Did you create the above graphic? If so, how about adding a spot for L943 below L584? I do not see much discussion on the forums about it. From the scant testing to date, two Assyrian R-L584 men are derived for L943, and one Assyrian R-L584 man is ancestral.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/l943_gd-1.jpg

brygian
09-05-2014, 08:23 PM
I only find a L584 result for 45475 on FTDNA and no L943.

Humanist
09-05-2014, 08:43 PM
I only find a L584 result for 45475 on FTDNA and no L943.

That is the kit for the admin of the Jewish Cohanim project, Sean Silver. I believe L943 was first observed in his sample, which was a WTY, if I am not mistaken.

brygian
09-05-2014, 08:56 PM
That is the kit for the admin of the Jewish Cohanim project, Sean Silver. I believe L943 was first observed in his sample, which was a WTY, if I am not mistaken.

We will need his L943+ result visible somewhere for the ISOGG application.

Humanist
09-05-2014, 09:02 PM
We will need his L943+ result visible somewhere for the ISOGG application.

Are results on the Finch server still accessible?

brygian
09-05-2014, 09:07 PM
What is this server? Is it trustworthy? ISOGG recognizes results only from trusted entities like FTDNA, YSEQ, BISDNA...

Joe B
09-05-2014, 09:09 PM
That is the kit for the admin of the Jewish Cohanim project, Sean Silver. I believe L943 was first observed in his sample, which was a WTY, if I am not mistaken.
Sean did lead the way with his WTY and SNP discovery, including L943. It's worth noting that he also did the Big Y and FTDNA placed him in the R1b1a1a6 or R-CTS1848 haplogroup. By himself so far.
smal's tree shows where CTS1848 and PF3449 may be part of the picture too.
http://arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/Z2103-tree-screenshot-d-1200-w.jpg

Gary Corbett
09-05-2014, 09:28 PM
I'm pretty sure they nuked the Finch server when they stopped the original Walk and went to the Big Y.

Highlander
09-09-2014, 04:07 AM
Hello Folks,

I did my test in this spring with National Geographic and got the results in may.
I was very busy back then and was unable to carefully go through my results to see what I had got.
Well, so I go a time a week ago and discovered what I had never known before...

So, my Y-DNA is R-YSC0000072 (but for some reason it says PF7580 on the National geographic website)
my mtDNA is H13A1A1. With this everything is clear for know (well, not everything everything thou)

Those results where quite unexpected for me and let me explain why;

My Hominin Ancestry shows that I am 1.9% Neanderthal and 2.1% Denisovan.
That was kinda expected as being European (Caucasian)

My regional ancestry splits into four parts;

50% Mediterranean (it says Tuscan)
29% Southwest Asian (around modern Iran)
19% Northern European (around Finland, Norway... probably Baltic too)
2% Northeast Asian... I have no freaking clue where I got this from

at one glans noting seems strange... but let me tell you my story.
I was quite convinced that my Y-DNA was gonna be G2a... because I was born and lived 21 years in Georgia, Caucasus!
My paternal ancestors had lived in the Western Georgia for centuries. According to the family story, first they lived the highlands but migrated downwards into the flatland. (there are no quite flatland in Georgia, but lets go with that for now)
And as like most of the highlanders they all were tall the 6'2" (191cm) and pretty built up too.
You might have heard that Georgian belongs to Kartvelian language family (with Mengrelian and Svan) that is not related to Indo-European at all... even though Indo-European haplogroup (???) how is it possible that my paternal line goes to Tuscan, Italy?! I am sure none of my known ancestors had ever stepped on an Italian soil. My kid sister is first in our line how ever has visited Italy)

As for my maternal ancestors, they were ethnic polishes lived in Vilnius, Lithuania. In the begging of 20th century they emigrated to Siberia, Russia where my grandma was born...
That is pretty much everything I know about them...
I guess it partly explains my 19% Northern European gens...

As form my 29% Southwest Asian gens, I do not quite know why do I have that gens too... If I were an eastern Georgian (who had had more connections with Iranians throughout) I would have understood this, but my ancestors lived in the western part of the country.

and finally 2% Northeast Asian... I just do know nothing about it...

This my story...
but I have got questions and I see you are more knowledgeable than me in those studies, so I'll ask you some questions if you don't mind.

1) What is the distinction between R-YSC0000072 and PF7580?

2) Where dose R-YSC0000072 (or PF7580) originlly comes from?

3) How the hell did R-YSC0000072 end up in mountains of Caucasus?

Thank you in advance,
David

smal
09-09-2014, 08:35 AM
1) What is the distinction between R-YSC0000072 and PF7580?

2) Where dose R-YSC0000072 (or PF7580) originlly comes from?

3) How the hell did R-YSC0000072 end up in mountains of Caucasus?


Hello Highlander and welcome to Anthrogenica,

You meet the criteria for the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx), please join it if you're not there yet and share your kit number.

Your correct branch is R-PF7580 (R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>PF7580, L584). YSC0000072 is a bug of the FTDNA/NatGeo tree. This SNP was founded to be positive for most of Geno 2.0 tested R1b samples but all known Sanger sequenced samples for YSC0000072 are negative. Most probably YSC0000072 is one of the false positive SNPs in the Geno 2.0 microarray.

Do you have STR haplotype? If you have not tested for STR markers, I recommend you do them. Your Geno 2.0 test is a good start point but you terminal SNP PF7580 marker has originated thousands of years ago, probably, somewhere between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age. It is difficult to say definitely we need to wait the aDNA results. STR data will help you to find more closely related samples.

The R-PF7580, L584 branch is common for Caucasus region and also (probably) for Georgia. Unfortunately, most of Georgian samples are not tested for SNPs from the Z2103 branch. If you had STR haplotype this would help us to develop a better SNP prediction model for Georgian samples.

Humanist
09-09-2014, 05:26 PM
Does anyone know if there has been any additional testing of the Iraqi Arab R-L23 men who are ancestral for R-L584 (i.e. kit # N83705, 168039, 193303).

Joe B
09-09-2014, 08:53 PM
Does anyone know if there has been any additional testing of the Iraqi Arab R-L23 men who are ancestral for R-L584 (i.e. kit # N83705, 168039, 193303).

N83705 has tested L23+, L150+, L584-, CTS7822-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106- and is not likely a L277. Backtracking a bit and testing for Z2103 next makes sense.
subgroup B3. R1b-L23: Should order Z2103

168039 has tested M269+, L150+, L405+, L584- and should test Z2103. Maybe L277 down the road.
subgroup C2. Probable R1b-L23: L51- Should order L23 & Z2103 or Geno 2.0 test + upgrade to 37 or 67 markers

193303 has tested only L584- and should test Z2103.
subgroup C1. Probable R1b-L23: L51- Should order L23 & Z2103 or Geno 2.0 from the Genographic Project

None of the STRs for these kits are giving any strong clues so going back and testing Z2103 and L23 would be prudent. Not aware of any outstanding test results for these kits either.

R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Humanist
09-09-2014, 09:02 PM
Thanks for the reply, Joe.

Highlander
09-10-2014, 05:14 PM
Thank Smal for replaying back.
I have already joined that group (t35 Project) and sow some interesting things too.

Actually I am bit confused here;
My DNA is not R1b1a2 but R1b1a1a, at least that what Family Tree says. And I am not sure what is the different between this two.
Also, my Geno 2.0 show that I have been placed in L278 which is declared being still studied.
Don't get me wrong my knowledge in this is very limited and it could sound silly but I don't know much about it.


STR data will help you to find more closely related samples.
How am I supposed to do that?


If you had STR haplotype this would help us to develop a better SNP prediction model for Georgian samples.
here is a Georgian group which I have joind too.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia/default.aspx

And if you see the list you might see there are many SNPs done, at least what I understood.

Thank you.

Joe B
09-10-2014, 06:33 PM
Thank Smal for replaying back.
I have already joined that group (t35 Project) and sow some interesting things too.

Actually I am bit confused here;
My DNA is not R1b1a2 but R1b1a1a, at least that what Family Tree says. And I am not sure what is the different between this two.
Also, my Geno 2.0 show that I have been placed in L278 which is declared being still studied.
Don't get me wrong my knowledge in this is very limited and it could sound silly but I don't know much about it.


How am I supposed to do that?


here is a Georgian group which I have joind too.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia/default.aspx

And if you see the list you might see there are many SNPs done, at least what I understood.

Thank you.
Welcome aboard Highlander!! We really need those STRs as smal indicated. After logging into your FTDNA account, click the blue "Upgrade" button at the top of the page. That should bring you to the "Order Additional DNA Tests" page. Please seriously consider ordering Y67 or Y111 STRs. By ordering the STRs we will be able to place you in subgroup _b1. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ PF7580+. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized.
L278 may or not be very important. ISOGG Y Browse notes have it as "Likely synonymous to P25" so it may not do us any good. http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=18914441;end=18914441;name=L27 8;class=Sequence;feature_id=60530;db_id=chrY%3Adat abase

The ISOGG tree would be R1b1a2a2a for the L584 or PF7580 level. We may want you to consider ordering L584 sometime too. The STRs are the priority right now.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thanks Highlander, it's much appreciated.
Joe

smal
09-10-2014, 09:09 PM
Actually I am bit confused here;
My DNA is not R1b1a2 but R1b1a1a, at least that what Family Tree says. And I am not sure what is the different between this two.
Also, my Geno 2.0 show that I have been placed in L278 which is declared being still studied.
Don't get me wrong my knowledge in this is very limited and it could sound silly but I don't know much about it.


R1b1a1 (or R-M73) is a very rare and old subclade. You, of course, belong to the R-M269 (R1b1a2) branch. However, the most of R1b folk belong to the R1b1a2 subclade. Your results told us more, your belong to R1b1a2a (R-L23)>R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2103)>R1b1a2a2a (R-L584, PF7580) subclade. L278 is SNP of the R1b1 subclade. This is very old and uninteresting for you marker.



here is a Georgian group which I have joind too.
And if you see the list you might see there are many SNPs done, at least what I understood.


You are really the first among Georgian R1b men who was tested deeply for SNPs. The most of R1b members in Georgian project were not tested for SNPs or tested only for M269 or L23. But we want to know about more young subclades.

Highlander
09-11-2014, 12:17 AM
Joe B


Y111 STR
I'll order this as soon as I get enough money to do so.
I am also very interested in this too.

Thanks for suggesting.

smal


R1b1a1 (or R-M73) is a very rare and old subclade. You, of course, belong to the R-M269 (R1b1a2) branch. However, the most of R1b folk belong to the R1b1a2 subclade. Your results told us more, your belong to R1b1a2a (R-L23)>R1b1a2a2 (R-Z2103)>R1b1a2a2a (R-L584, PF7580) subclade. L278 is SNP of the R1b1 subclade. This is very old and uninteresting for you marker.

Why there are such mismatches between Geno. 2 and FTDNA?
I mean when I log into my Geno 2.0 it clearly shows that me being under L278 and then I go into my FTDNA and I see it showing R1b1a1a...
If you go into the Georgian group under Results > SNP you will see R1b1a1a instead of R1b1a2 and then the tested SNPs;


CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7580+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

Pillar_of_fire
09-11-2014, 05:40 AM
There are different Y-Haplogroup trees around.

There is the FTDNA tree created with the partnership with Geno2, though I suspect that there could be some mismatch of the terminal SNP for some groups.

there is the ISOGG tree on http://www.isogg.org/tree/

there is the 23andMe tree

there is the YFULL tree - http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2/

there is the experimental tree of smal, who is a project administrator of the https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/ project

The driving force of Y haplogroup development are the project administrators, with their guidance and project members they collect data and submit evidence to ISOGG fro review and approval new branch defining SNP. ISOGG approves on a rolling base new branch defining SNPs, while FTDNA updates the tree at irregular intervals, the 2014 update was expected for some years.

YFULL tree is based on BIG Y and FGS results submitted to YFULL plus 1000 Genomes project, so there could be some omissions compared to the experimental tree of project admins.

The least updated is the FTDNA tree.

So if there is a branch defining SNP (according ISOGG) that you are positive for and this SNP is not yet on the FTDNA tree you will be treated by FTDNA as of their latest tree, while in the project and in the discussions here you will be treated as of the latest terminal SNP.

smal
09-11-2014, 06:32 AM
Joe B
Why there are such mismatches between Geno. 2 and FTDNA?
I mean when I log into my Geno 2.0 it clearly shows that me being under L278 and then I go into my FTDNA and I see it showing R1b1a1a...
If you go into the Georgian group under Results > SNP you will see R1b1a1a instead of R1b1a2 and then the tested SNPs;


The designations like R1b1a2 or R1b1a1a were used in the old version of the Y-tree nomenclature. In this nomenclature the discovery of new markers led to the need to revise each time the branch designations. You can find many old versions of the tree in the network. Therefore, such nomenclature was abandoned. Now we use the branch designations like R-M269, R-L23, R-Z2103, R-PF7580. Such nomenclature does not cause ambiguity.

If you can't belive us please try the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Subclade Predictor (http://ytree.morleydna.com/).

Highlander
09-13-2014, 03:40 PM
smal

I have no reason not to believe you. I was just trying to make my knowledge broad.

A question;
What would SNP 67 test give me? more detailed information about my DNA location or detailed information about my paternal ancestors?

Thank you again.

Joe B
09-13-2014, 05:07 PM
Hello Highlander,
One of the best examples of how STRs can help happens to have started out as a Geno 2.0 R1b-PF7580 just like you. Goldschlager ordered STRs and could readily see that he fit the modal for the Shapiro family subgroup R1b1a2 - Group A, even thought they hadn't SNP tested yet.
Check it out.
Shapiro https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Shapiro/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
Goldschlager https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Goldschlager/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
So STRs can help you zero in on families, ethnic groups and help find other people with similar haplotypes that you can ask to confirm with a SNP test. For example, do you match up with any other Georgian haplotypes?
67 STRs is the gold standard and would give you a great deal of information now and in the future. 111 STRs is platinum status.
YSC0000072 is a mistake by FTDNA. If you were to test YSC0000072 by Sanger sequencing instead of SNP array it would be negative. You are R1b-PF7580 and likely R1b-L584 and should be very proud of that. smal knows his stuff and has put in far more hours of research on the phylogenetics of R1b-PF7580/L584 and other R1b-Z2103 subclades than FTDNA or anybody else. Please consult the phylogenetic trees on the background page of the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/).

smal
09-13-2014, 05:26 PM
What would SNP 67 test give me? more detailed information about my DNA location or detailed information about my paternal ancestors?


You will have more detailed information about your paternal line. After Geno 2.0 test you know that you belong to R-PF7850 branch. This is important information but probably many thousands or even millions men on the planet have the R-PF7850 haplogroup. 67 or 111 STR marker tests allow you to estimate the degree of relationship to each of men in database. You could calculate TMRCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor) with tested men and even find your close relatives if they were tested of course.

Highlander
09-13-2014, 06:45 PM
Joe B

smal

Thank you so much guys,
I wonder if they had not sequenced my DNA (I mean SNP) how would they put my paternal ancestry somewhere in Tuscany? I know it is a quite generic assumption but still makes me think about it.

Do you know anything more detailed about H13a1a?
H13 is thought to be originated from Caucasus too but I am a part Polish and those people have had nothing to do with that region.

Joe B


You are R1b-PF7580 and likely R1b-L584 and should be very proud of that

Just curios Joe, why is that? What does make it special?
I am sure out there there are many good people carrying this DNA, but what else?
Is R1b-PF7580 relatively rear?

P.S. I'll update my profile with R1b-PF7580 though ;)

Silesian
09-13-2014, 07:24 PM
Do you know anything more detailed about H13a1a?
H13 is thought to be originated from Caucasus too but I am a part Polish and those people have had nothing to do with that region.
Welcome to our many branched R1b group. You might also be interested in entering your result's into some of the Gedmatch heritage calculator's to get better understanding.
http://v2.gedmatch.com/login1.php

Here is an example of R1b L584+
using Dodecad K12b Admixture Proportions and Oracle prediction.

Population
Gedrosia 2.77%
Siberian 2.18%
Northwest_African 0.65%
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 22.60%
North_European 60.43%
South_Asian 1.40%
East_African -
Southwest_Asian -
East_Asian -
Caucasus 9.97%
Sub_Saharan -

# Population (source) Distance
1 Polish (Dodecad) 5.23
2 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 7.86
3 Ukranians (Yunusbayev) 9.24

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.5% Russian_B (Behar) + 31.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.58
2 69.9% Russian_B (Behar) + 30.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 1.77
3 68.9% Russian_B (Behar) + 31.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.79
4 69.6% Russian_B (Behar) + 30.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 1.79
5 70.5% Russian_B (Behar) + 29.5% British (Dodecad) @ 1.8

Joe B
09-15-2014, 04:35 PM
Just curios Joe, why is that? What does make it special?
I am sure out there there are many good people carrying this DNA, but what else?
Is R1b-PF7580 relatively rear?

P.S. I'll update my profile with R1b-PF7580 though ;)
R1b-L584 was the first subclade found for the L23 group and was the most studied until recently. It will be great to have more testing for L584 in the Georgian Project and your good example is important.
Thanks for updating your profile to R1b-PF7580. We've been very fustrated with FTDNA not removing SNP YSC0000072 from their tree.

Joe B
10-18-2014, 04:32 PM
L943 is now R1b1a2a2a1: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.htmlThe addition of L943 (R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>L584>L943) to the ISOGG tree is important enough to post on this thread too. Thank you brygian for your expertise and initiative to get L943 peer reviewed and listed on the ISOGG R-tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html). It's time for everyone who is L584+ or PF7580+ to take a good look at the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) tree that smal has developed and consider testing for SNPs downstream from L584+ such as L943.

brygian
10-18-2014, 05:30 PM
The addition of L943 (R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>L584>L943) to the ISOGG tree is important enough to post on this thread too. Thank you brygian for your expertise and initiative to get L943 peer reviewed and listed on the ISOGG R-tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html). It's time for everyone who is L584+ or PF7580+ to take a good look at the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) tree that smal has developed and consider testing for SNPs downstream from L584+ such as L943.

Exactly, we would like to see more test results from the L584 and L277 people. Otherwise we cannot develop the phylogenic tree - either the experimental or the ISOGG one.

Arsen
10-20-2014, 09:03 AM
Hi, Highlander,

I'm H13a1a too, (but Z2108* by yDNA). It may be very interesting.

What part of Georgia place your ancestors from?

smal
10-20-2014, 11:47 AM
Hi, Arsen,
Welcome to Anthrogenica. Your R-Z2108, Z2109* results are very interesting.

Joe B
10-20-2014, 06:07 PM
Hi, Highlander,

I'm H13a1a too, (but Z2108* by yDNA). It may be very interesting.

What part of Georgia place where your ancestors from?
Hello Arsen,
Welcome to Anthrogenica and this area of the human Y-tree. Anthrogenica is a great forum to follow and participate in the phylogenetic developments that are rapidily occurring right now.

As smal indicated, your R1b-Z2108, Z2109 results are of great interest. When smal says "very interesting" he means it. It's likely that you represent a new branch of the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup that we are trying to develop right now. Please have a look at the comprehensive phylogenetic tree that small has developed for the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) and look for the Z2106 to Z2109 level or #257842(me) and you should place on the tree around there.

If you have not already, please join the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) as that is where the research is conducted. If you have any questions at all contact smal or myself on this forum, by private message or our use our email addresses found on the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.

Thanks for checking in!

Arsen
10-29-2014, 08:29 AM
Thank you very much for the work you are doing and special thanks to smal for helping me in my research of my DNA results.

I have interests in history and I see what a huge influence DNA research for historical and another science.

Táltos
10-29-2014, 01:45 PM
Hello Arsen,
Welcome to Anthrogenica and this area of the human Y-tree. Anthrogenica is a great forum to follow and participate in the phylogenetic developments that are rapidily occurring right now.

As smal indicated, your R1b-Z2108, Z2109 results are of great interest. When smal says "very interesting" he means it. It's likely that you represent a new branch of the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup that we are trying to develop right now. Please have a look at the comprehensive phylogenetic tree that small has developed for the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) and look for the Z2106 to Z2109 level or #257842(me) and you should place on the tree around there.

If you have not already, please join the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/) as that is where the research is conducted. If you have any questions at all contact smal or myself on this forum, by private message or our use our email addresses found on the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project.

Thanks for checking in!
Joe B,
You are right that Anthrogenica is an excellent forum to learn about new developments in the field. I also have to say I envy the camaraderie amongst all the R1b and R1a guys. There always seems to be new information coming out about the various subclades. It is great to learn about them here on the forum. I guess that is how it is when you belong to a popular haplogroup. :D

Highlander
12-24-2014, 03:56 PM
Arsen

My father was Georgian, born and raised in Tbilisi. Originally, his family was from the Western Georgia.
My H13a1a is actually my mtDNA. My mother is Polish, however her family is originally Vilnius, which back then was a part of Poland.
I am very interested in the origin of H13a1a and would like to know more.

Joe B
01-12-2015, 08:30 PM
Slowly but surely the R1b-L584 branch is becoming better defined. If I'm reading the tree correctly, at least six lines emanate from L584.
3372

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Caspian
01-12-2015, 09:34 PM
Is Uygur L584 Tocharian descendant? What do you think about it's origin?

Joe B
02-17-2015, 07:49 PM
The R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project Phylogenetic Research Tree has a major change to the R1b-L584 branch.

The R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx) phylogenetic tree was updated. 4 new BigY-tested samples were added:

1) 329814 (Burns) and
2) FTDNA-? (Spataro) belonging to the PF7562+ PF7563+ branch.
3) N9484 (Caceres) belonging to the L584 branch. This is a first non-positive PF7580 sample from the L584+ branch.
4) 317656 (Strozier) belonging to the CTS6889 branch.
3797
The subgroups for R1b-L584 have been adjusted to reflect the results of N9484. Basically, all R1b-L584 haplotypes should test for PF7580.
_b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ should test L584
_b1. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ Should test PF7580
_b1a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ PF7580-
_b1b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ PF7580+
_b1b1. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ PF7580+ L943+ L944? L945? L946?
_b1b2. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ PF7580+ L943+ L944+ L945+ L946+ CTS1848+

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Goldschlager
02-18-2015, 02:00 AM
3801

Joe,
Please be so kind and explain why the latest tree ends with the line on top of attached picture while the several branches below are not shown. Is it because those are private SNPs?

Thanks

Joe B
02-18-2015, 06:22 AM
3801

Joe,
Please be so kind and explain why the latest tree ends with the line on top of attached picture while the several branches below are not shown. Is it because those are private SNPs?

ThanksHey Goldschlager,
I don't know the answer for sure. It could be private SNPs or that the haplotypes come from different sources. Perhaps somebody else can better explain it. Yours at the very botttom of the L584 tree seems to be the one smal is comparing all other too. That makes sense since you were the first L584 Big Y test. Thank you

Highlander
04-02-2015, 02:15 PM
Joe B

smal

Hello guys

My Y-DNA67 test results just have came.

I think this is what I have got.

PF7580+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

Any thoughts?

Joe B
04-02-2015, 05:04 PM
Joe B

smal

Hello guys

My Y-DNA67 test results just have came.

I think this is what I have got.

PF7580+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

Any thoughts?
Thanks Highlander.
PF7580 was recently discovered to be downstream of L584. So you belong to the R1b-L584 haplogroup. You should be placed in subgroup _b1b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L584+ PF7580+.

Arsen
09-11-2015, 05:41 AM
Hi all!

Kit 279133 have L584+ and
DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
11 24 14 10 12-15 12 12 11 12 13 28

He is from Jurmaty clan (today they not only R1b, and have I1, R1a and N), one of the ancient subgroups of bashkir.

Is it possible to order another snips, or can only BigY?

Joe B
09-12-2015, 05:04 PM
Hi all!

Kit 279133 have L584+ and
DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
11 24 14 10 12-15 12 12 11 12 13 28

He is from Jurmaty clan (today they not only R1b, and have I1, R1a and N), one of the ancient subgroups of bashkir.

Is it possible to order another snips, or can only BigY?
Hey Arsen,
Those are interesting STRs. Right now the next SNP to test would be PF7580. The problem is that there are only two ways to test that SNP at the moment, Geno 2.0 and NGS testing like the BIG Y. PF7580 is not available from FTDNA as a single SNP test and they have not responded to any request to add it. I'm sure YSEQ http://www.yseq.net/ would be more than happy to test #279133 for PF7580 if requested. Downstream of PF7580 (R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>L584>PF7580) there are SNPs L943 and then CTS1848 to test that are in the FTDNA advanced menu.
Big Y or other NGS testing would be very interesting because of the odd STRs and his Jurmaty heritage. Good find Arsen!

Please let the gentlemen know that he is most welcome in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

Joe B
11-21-2015, 07:29 PM
I share CelticGerman's point of view, the sum of all my many tested DNA lines is more accurate than any one of them, and I feel connected to many parts of Eurasia through my various lines.

However I do feel a special connection to both my own yDNA and another one of my ancestral lines, R1b-L584, because having ancestors from both Europe and West Asia/the Near East, the subclades that span those areas, or which appear to have arisen near their edges of them, are of the greatest interest to me.Great progress is being made in haplogroup R1b-L584. The TMRCA estimates at YFull look very good compared to the historical record for some of the L584 lines. The particular line that your cousin may belong to has at least two Big Y results. One of them has also tested Y Elite 2.0 and is listed on the YFull tree. The combination of SNP counting TMRCA estimates and using several hundreds of STRs for a TMRCA looks like the way to go.
http://yfull.com/tree/R-L584/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results

XooR
01-14-2016, 03:15 PM
I just got my big y results and my Confirmed Haplogroup is R-FGC14590 once I receive bam file I will upload to the yfull.

quxuq
02-06-2016, 12:49 PM
My uncles R1b Z2103 SNP Pack Results are in, he is PF7580 and his terminal SNP is (R) FGC14594 +
FGC14590+, FGC14592+, FGC14593+, FGC14594+, L584+, PF7580+, Y13095+, Y13369+, Y13370+, Z2103+, Z2105+

nec3
02-06-2016, 02:59 PM
Is Uygur L584 Tocharian descendant? What do you think about it's origin?

I have two matches in the FTDNA map from around East Turkistan and Kazakhistan. Unfortunately their contact info is hidden.

I am : Z2103+ L584+ PF7580+ FGC14594+ FGC14592+ FGC14593+ FGC14590+

XooR
03-04-2016, 04:40 PM
My uncles R1b Z2103 SNP Pack Results are in, he is PF7580 and his terminal SNP is (R) FGC14594 +
FGC14590+, FGC14592+, FGC14593+, FGC14594+, L584+, PF7580+, Y13095+, Y13369+, Y13370+, Z2103+, Z2105+

quxuq,

Did your uncle upload his BAM file to yfull?
What is his ancestral background?

Akatosh86
03-09-2016, 08:32 PM
my results are in:

R1b-Z2103, Z2105 > L584 > PH1639 > PH2731

no idea what that means. any suggestions?

Joe B
03-10-2016, 05:37 PM
My uncles R1b Z2103 SNP Pack Results are in, he is PF7580 and his terminal SNP is (R) FGC14594 +
FGC14590+, FGC14592+, FGC14593+, FGC14594+, L584+, PF7580+, Y13095+, Y13369+, Y13370+, Z2103+, Z2105+

quxuq,

Did your uncle upload his BAM file to yfull?
What is his ancestral background?The SNP packs are a different technology than NGS testing. So no bam file. The R1b Z2103 SNP Pack test is specific to a defined set of SNPs. No SNP discovery.

Joe B
03-10-2016, 06:12 PM
Hard to say what it means. The R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project has you in subgroup _b1a. R1b-Z2103, Z2105 > L584 > PH1639. This smal but eclectic group has a Georgian, a Greek, two from Sweden, a Turk, a German and a Puerto Rican. YFull only has the Swedes with a 500 year history in Sweden. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y18441/
The R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) Phylogenetic Tree clearly shows the PH2731 branch. PH2731 was added to the R1b Z2103 SNP Pack Version 2.0 so it is unknown if the Greek is PH2731+ since he took the first version of the R1b Z2103 SNP Pack. Yourself, the Turk and the Swedes are R1b-M269>L23>Z2103, Z2105>L584>PH1639>PH2731
R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) Phylogenetic Tree. v 27. March 9, 2016
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results
Thanks for testing. Hopefully there will be more testing from the Caucasus this year.

quxuq
03-15-2016, 09:16 PM
Sorry for my last response. He didn't order BigY. He ordered only Z2103 pack. He says, that his ancestors came from Khazaria of Turkic descent. His autosomal results show that he is dominant Kurdish. So I thought his paternal line can't be Turkish, after all there are many Jewish, Armenian, Assyrian L584s. But it seems now that the history of his paternal line might be true, because there are also some Middle Asians, who are L584.

XooR
03-16-2016, 01:42 AM
I received my yfull report, (YF05208) FTDNA (B76395)

Somehow they did not update the R-FGC14590 tree. Hopefully they will update soon, most probably there will be a new subclade.
According to yfull my line is 5461 yo. Any comments?


816281638164

Joe B
08-15-2016, 05:59 PM
YFull has placed F38, an ancient iron age sample from a dig in Northwestern Iran called Tepe Hasanlu on their haplotree. It's downstream of L584 and PF7580. R-Y16852*
R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>L584>PF7580, FGC14590>FGC14598, Y16852
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent
F. Broushaki et al. Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent. Science, 2016 DOI: 10.1126/science.aaf7943

Tepe Hasanlu
The Early Iron Age (1,250-800 BCE) in Iran belongs to a cultural interval representing
extensive and complex long-distance trade (51) linking Iran to Central Asia in the East and to
Mesopotamia and Eastern Anatolia in the West, even more than in the Late Bronze Age. Among
the key Iron Age sites of Northwestern Iran, Tepe Hasanlu is of high importance due to its longterm
occupation and well-defined stratigraphy.
Hasanlu is an imposing fortified citadel mound in western Azerbaijan, situated on the
southern shore of Lake Urmia in the Solduz Valley. Tepe Hasanlu has a long history of
excavations (52, 53) and was continuously occupied during almost ten different cultural periods
from the late Neolithic during the second half of the 6th millennium BCE to the Ilkhanid period
13th century CE (51, 54). However, the Late Bronze Age (1,450-1,250 BCE), and Iron Age
(1,250-550 BCE) were most extensively investigated and large collections of burials were
uncovered for the two periods, particularly for Iron Age I and II (55, 56). Its pivotal position
along trade routes through the Zagros Mountains made Hasanlu a crossroads between the
northern Zagros and Mesopotamia and Anatolia. The significant role of Hasanlu as an important
urban center and its socioeconomic role in the northwest of the Iranian Plateau during the Iron
Age with other regions of the Near East is evidenced by the diversity and richness of the
material culture of the site (57-60). The city of Hasanlu was destroyed around 800 BCE (56,
61).
For this study we analyzed a femur fragment from a male individual from a burial in
Square / Operation F38. No specific anthropological work has been carried out in the past on
this skeleton. The direct 14C radiocarbon date (cal. 971-832 BCE) (Table S2) confirms the
allocation of the burial to the Iron Age II or Hasanlu IVb period.

ADW_1981
08-17-2016, 03:53 PM
YFull has placed F38, an ancient iron age sample from a dig in Northwestern Iran called Tepe Hasanlu on their haplotree. It's downstream of L584 and PF7580. R-Y16852*
R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>L584>PF7580, FGC14590>FGC14598, Y16852
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent
F. Broushaki et al. Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent. Science, 2016 DOI: 10.1126/science.aaf7943

Do we know where most of the L584 Assyrians fall under these nodes?

Joe B
08-20-2016, 05:51 PM
Do we know where most of the L584 Assyrians fall under these nodes?

Three different clades of R1b-L584>PF7580, FGC14590 from what I can tell. One shares the FGC14598 branch with the F38 gentleman. R1b-L584 was probably indigenous to the area when the Assyrians formed as a ethnoreligious group. There just is not enough testing to say which branch is more predominant.

Humanist
08-20-2016, 06:16 PM
Three different clades of R1b-L584>PF7580, FGC14590, from what I can tell. One shares the FGC14598 branch with the F38 gentleman. R1b-L584 was probably indigenous to the area when the Assyrians formed as a ethnoreligious group. There just is not enough testing to say which branch is more predominant.

Thank you for the information, Joe. Just want to note that our Eastern Aramaic vernacular indicates that our ancestors were in the northern Mesopotamian region well before the existence of the Assyrian-Christian ethnoreligious group. That does not necessarily change anything you have stated, but I just wanted to clarify that our ancestors did not arrive in the region with the formation of the Syriac churches of the 4th and 5th centuries CE.

Joe B
08-20-2016, 07:56 PM
Hey Humanist, I was just trying to play it safe. Certainly the YFull age estimates for the R1b-L584>PF7580, FGC14590 branch are intriguing and close to the formation of an independent Assyrian state in the 25th century BC. It would not surpise me if a few ancient Assyrian remains turn out to be R1b-L584. That would be excellent evidence of Assyrian continuity.

R-FGC14590 SK2093/FGC14593 * FGC14592 * FGC14590 FGC14594* PF7580 SNPs formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp CI 95% 5400<->4000 ybp
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

Humanist
08-20-2016, 08:09 PM
Hey Humanist, I was just trying to play it safe. Certainly the YFull age estimates for the R1b-L584>PF7580, FGC14590 branch are intriguing and close to the formation of an independent Assyrian state in the 25th century BC.

No problem, my friend. As far as the age of our community is concerned, if we go by the evidence of our vernacular language, an age of 2500-2000 years is not a bad approximation, I think. This would actually put us in the post Assyrian era, or in other words the Neo-Babylonian, Achaemenid, Seleucid, etc. period of Mesopotamian history. Of course, the age of our community may be a few centuries older or younger. But certainly you are correct, we will need ancient DNA from the region to see to what extent, if any there is continuity between modern Assyrians and the ancient inhabitants of the region. Though, the fact that the man from Hasanlu was L-584 is certainly an interesting development, given the relative abundance of L-584 among modern Assyrians.

Silesian
08-25-2016, 10:57 PM
update;
http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ekiq14.jpg

http://oi65.tinypic.com/140lpae.jpg

http://oi64.tinypic.com/52f0xt.jpg

Armin1-L584+
R-Y18441/PH1141-
R-FGC-14590/PF7580-
R-L943-
R-Y16852-
R-Y11410-
R-FGC14600-

Italian & Turkish-L584+
R-FGC14590+
R-L943-

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject?iframe=yresults
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M269xP312xU106_tree_29_08_03_2016.pdf

XooR
10-02-2016, 02:50 AM
YFull updated the R-L584 tree

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/xoorslug/yfull4.09_zpsvj3so2uf.jpg (http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/xoorslug/media/yfull4.09_zpsvj3so2uf.jpg.html)

XooR
09-22-2017, 04:03 PM
What is the difference between FGC14590 and PF7580? FTDNA changed my y-dna from FGC14590 to PF7580.

XooR
01-27-2018, 04:38 PM
my results are in:

R1b-Z2103, Z2105 > L584 > PH1639 > PH2731

no idea what that means. any suggestions?

Akatosh, is that you in ytree, YF11660? (Georgian)

https://yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

Joe B
01-27-2018, 06:09 PM
FGC14590, FGC14592, FGC14593/SK2093, FGC14594, FGC39500, PF7580 are all on the same phylogenetic level. Until this block of SNPs is broken up, R1b-FGC14590 and R1b-PF7580 have the same meaning.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results
https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14590/

XooR
01-27-2018, 06:44 PM
FGC14590, FGC14592, FGC14593/SK2093, FGC14594, FGC39500, PF7580 are all on the same phylogenetic level. Until this block of SNPs is broken up, R1b-FGC14590 and R1b-PF7580 have the same meaning.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results
https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14590/

Joe B, then what might be the reason they change it back and forth if it is basically the same? I've seen multiple PF7580's in FTDNA but not one FGC14590

Akatosh86
02-08-2018, 08:47 PM
Akatosh, is that you in ytree, YF11660? (Georgian)

https://yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

yes, that happens to be me

BAM file is still not there though. not sure if it will add anything new or not, but we will see

looks like we had a common male ancestor 5000 years ago ))
it's interesting what language did he speak. probably an early form of Indo-European

asm
02-02-2019, 01:30 PM
yes, that happens to be me

BAM file is still not there though. not sure if it will add anything new or not, but we will see

looks like we had a common male ancestor 5000 years ago ))
it's interesting what language did he speak. probably an early form of Indo-European

Couldn't R-L584s of that time speak other than Indo-European languages?

ADW_1981
02-02-2019, 11:04 PM
Couldn't R-L584s of that time speak other than Indo-European languages?

Considering it's next to impossible that M269+ is from the Middle East, you're looking at a language that was spoken on the Pontic Caspian steppe, whatever set of languages those could be.

ketty
02-20-2020, 06:54 PM
Hi I have recently received my big y results R-Z2103>Z2105 and end up at BY4763 . My surname is Kett and my family is from East Anglia ( England ) my family is well documented in this area for at least the last 500 years. Does anyone have information on the history of Z2105 in the Uk and in general.
Many thanks.