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alan
11-14-2013, 05:23 PM
I found interesting the observation in my reading about the Dzungaria gate that the southern Tarim route east tended to be taken by traders while the northern route towards the Dzungarian gate through the steppe tended to be taken by nomadic invaders. That might be something to chew over in terms of copper age movements east of R groups. The following maps indicate something interesting.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/images/en/map06.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wrNXSWPyDxQ/TvaG2krDTSI/AAAAAAAAAhE/zpPrrj6D0Bs/s1600/Tracking+Tarim+Mummies+-+books+-+archeaology.org+-+Map.jpg


We do have evidence for Bronze Age R1a in Tarim and lineages controlling nodes on trading networks would seem a likely explanation if that observation on Tarim being more of a trade route than a large scale migration one. However, Afansievo is located at the east end of the northern route through the Khazak steppe, the route apparently usually taken by invaders rather than traders. The culture appears to stop in the mouth of the Dzungarian gate and does not enter through it.

That is suggestive to me that they the Tarim mummies and Afanasievo may be different things altogether. I am not trying to suggest on in R1a and one is R1b as I dont think that works either but I think the two routes, two functions aspect needs to be factored in.

I think the evidence is confusing. We can see from the Altai study that today R1b (M73) is only found in a northern Altai group with links to a retreat east from further west and is close to absent in the south. R1a is more common in general in Altai. We also have both R1a and R1b in the modern Tarim area. Finally the Tarim mummies are so far R1a in terms of R.

I think there is a lot more to be teased out of the story of R's west to east phase in central Asia.

There seems to be a lot of R1a and b in Kazakhstan.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/alash/default.aspx?section=yresults

However the Hindu Kush study shows very little R1b compared to R1a in Kyrgyzstan and Mongolia although it only covers groups like Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tajiks etc via their element on Afghanistan its fair to say that they are also very light on R1b. The upshot of this is that contrary to some opinions R1b looks very light in the southern 'Stan' counties and appears to be more common among Iranians and Khazaks.

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 05:30 PM
I think the only way the Tarim Mummies and Afanasievo are not the same thing is if somehow the Tarim mummies are Andronovo derived. There are multiple problems with that scenario imo.

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 05:39 PM
And the Kazakhstan R1b is quite interesting. But I think its important to keep in mind the oral history of some Kazakhs tracing their ancestry to Muslim missionaries as well as the fact that Kazakhstan was the destination for many movements within the Soviet Union. I recall a study showing the Kurds of Kazakhstan having a lot of upstream R1b and they are obviously transplants from West Asia. My hunch tells me the Kazakh R1b is recent because it would have expanded into South Central Asia and South Asia during the expansion of Andronovo tribes.

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 07:14 PM
Central Asia is just so poorly understood from a DNA standpoint.

I would love to know what lineages were present in the following cultures

Keltiminar (Western Kazakhstan)
Botai (East-Central Kazakhstan)
Jeitun (Turkmenistan)
BMAC (Uzbekistan)
Hissar (Tajikistan)

Might shed a light on upstream R1b, R1a and R2 as well as how they expanded.

alan
11-14-2013, 07:22 PM
There could well be a connection but it appears to be a very different thing and I suppose phase with two different routes being followed probably for two different reasons. How one links to the other is still to be determined. It must have been a significant cultural change and change of modus operandi between the two.

I understand the Tarim route historically was considered much safer than the northern route due to steppe nomads. The Tarim route was geographically more tricky but safer. Here is a guess- perhaps as a first precocious wave way to the east Afanasievo peoples didnt have a lot to worry about in terms of other steppe nomads but later waves on steppe nomads following behind them in the Bronze Age made a return journey from the Afanasievo outpost unsafe and the southern Tarim route more attractive. I presume that would be down to Andronovo which according to maps does look like it blocked the route west after 2000BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

You would probably know a lot more than me about the post-Afansievo nomads on the Khazak steppes.


I think the only way the Tarim Mummies and Afanasievo are not the same thing is if somehow the Tarim mummies are Andronovo derived. There are multiple problems with that scenario imo.

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 07:33 PM
There could well be a connection but it appears to be a very different thing and I suppose phase with two different routes being followed probably for two different reasons. How one links to the other is still to be determined. It must have been a significant cultural change and change of modus operandi between the two.

I understand the Tarim route historically was considered much safer than the northern route due to steppe nomads. The Tarim route was geographically more tricky but safer. Here is a guess- perhaps as a first precocious wave way to the east Afanasievo peoples didnt have a lot to worry about in terms of other steppe nomads but later waves on steppe nomads following behind them in the Bronze Age made a return journey from the Afanasievo outpost unsafe and the southern Tarim route more attractive. You would probably know a lot more than me about the post-Afansievo nomads on the Khazak steppes.

I have read that the lifestyle of Afanasievo had some parallels in East Central Asia. And the type of farming in the Tarim only has parallel to the BMAC. But that might be due to those parallels being introduced by Iranian speakers , especially in the case of the farming. It does seem post Afansievo the nomads on the Kazakh steppe likely blocked the Northern route. Which is why we saw the Kushan empire expand through the Tarim route and into Bactria and South Asia.

alan
11-14-2013, 07:36 PM
If the R1b in Kazakhstan was early though it would have either had to be among the Afanasievo or Andronovo groups. In light of other links between R1b and Iranian speakers it is interesting that R1b has a significant presence in that area and a poor presence further south and east in central Asia.

Dont get me wrong though I do not see a major role in the eastern part of the IE story for R1b but I doubt absence. M269 if it is part of the steppe story is largely a western one so I would not expect large amounts moving east.


And the Kazakhstan R1b is quite interesting. But I think its important to keep in mind the oral history of some Kazakhs tracing their ancestry to Muslim missionaries as well as the fact that Kazakhstan was the destination for many movements within the Soviet Union. I recall a study showing the Kurds of Kazakhstan having a lot of upstream R1b and they are obviously transplants from West Asia. My hunch tells me the Kazakh R1b is recent because it would have expanded into South Central Asia and South Asia during the expansion of Andronovo tribes.

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 07:51 PM
If the R1b in Kazakhstan was early though it would have either had to be among the Afanasievo or Andronovo groups. In light of other links between R1b and Iranian speakers it is interesting that R1b has a significant presence in that area and a poor presence further south and east in central Asia.

Dont get me wrong though I do not see a major role in the eastern part of the IE story for R1b but I doubt absence. M269 if it is part of the steppe story is largely a western one so I would not expect large amounts moving east.

I actually believe there was an absence. While I am open to the possibility that R1b as well as R1a-Z283+/Z282+/Z280+/M458+ (and maybe even I2c) clades might have once existed alongside R1a-Z93+ I think Andronovo will end up being very bottlenecked for R1a-Z93+ so I doubt it left anything but that in Central Asia. I think the bottleneck occurred in the Poltavka-->Andronovo phase. This is where that steppe study would be helpful. If anything other than R1a-Z93+ was present in steppe Iranians I would expect it in Timber-Grave not Andronovo.

While I agree there is a link with Iranian languages for R1b-L23 I see it as a link with West Iranian languages and not Proto Iranian . Which is why R1b has such a poor presence south and east of Central Asia. Because West Iranian languages never really existed there. I bet there is even a R1b division between Balochistan vs Afghanistan and Sindh. Its quite likely the Central Asian R1b-L23+ is directly from Iran. Tajiks speak West Iranian languages and have other lineages which connect them with the Middle East than Pashtuns do not have. They also seem to have much more of the Caucasus component. And the Maykop link for West Asian R1b-L23 makes sense.

Silesian
11-14-2013, 07:58 PM
I actually believe there was an absence. While I am open to the possibility that R1b as well as R1a-Z283+/Z282+/Z280+/M458+ (and maybe even I2c) clades might have once existed alongside R1a-Z93+ I think Andronovo will end up being very bottlenecked for R1a-Z93+ so I doubt it left anything but that in Central Asia. I think the bottleneck occurred in the Poltavka-->Andronovo phase. This is where that steppe study would be helpful. If anything other than R1a-Z93+ was present in steppe Iranians I would expect it in Timber-Grave not Andronovo.

While I agree there is a link with Iranian languages for R1b-L23 I see it as a link with West Iranian languages and not Proto Iranian . Which is why R1b has such a poor presence south and east of Central Asia. Because West Iranian languages never really existed there. I bet there is even a R1b division between Balochistan vs Afghanistan and Sindh. Its quite likely the Central Asian R1b-L23+ is directly from Iran. Tajiks speak West Iranian languages and have other lineages which connect them with the Middle East than Pashtuns do not have. They also seem to have much more of the Caucasus component. And the Maykop link for West Asian R1b-L23 makes sense.
Digor Ossets are the last remaining surviving branch Scythian/Alan branch of Eastern Iranians the L23x51 is the same as found in the Mede[Talysh][Azeri][Lur] areas of Iran both are considered old and the same branch. R1a has a very poor showing[Ossets Digor] in terms of numbers in that region.

nuadha
11-14-2013, 08:03 PM
I think the only way the Tarim Mummies and Afanasievo are not the same thing is if somehow the Tarim mummies are Andronovo derived. There are multiple problems with that scenario imo.

could you explain the problems you see?

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 08:07 PM
could you explain the problems you see?

Location, Date, mtDNA

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 08:10 PM
Digor Ossets are the last remaining surviving branch Scythian/Alan branch of Eastern Iranians the L23x51 is the same as found in the Mede[Talysh][Azeri][Lur] areas of Iran both are considered old and the same branch. R1a has a very poor showing[Ossets Digor] in terms of numbers in that region.

Yet there is plenty of R1a in the North Caucasus. We already discussed this. But it quite likely Ossetians have almost no ancestry from the Alans. They are probably just NW Caucasian speakers who adopted the language of the Kingdom of Alania whose actual Alan elite was destroyed by the Mongols.

Did they find any R1b from the study on Rosto-on-Don Scythians?

newtoboard
11-14-2013, 08:15 PM
could you explain the problems you see?

And possibly y-Dna and physical type don't fit either.

alan
11-14-2013, 08:38 PM
nuada could you post a link to your little paper on R1b in Asia. It would be useful in this thread.

One thing I notice in the Hindu Kush paper is it did refute within the area it covered anyway that R1b travelled in the copper age in any numbers along the southern fringe of the Stan countries of central Asia (however the bonus for R1b students was that the very early clades of R1 and R1b did apparently survive along that route, possibly an echo of an LGM period trail west from Siberia - the story is very complex). However, it has to be said that that Kindu Kush study doesnt cover the steppe areas. Any thoughts on the Hindu Kush findings. It is a pain to use unless you have a massive printer but there is a figure that gives a y dna tree with a table of frequencies below it.




could you explain the problems you see?

Joe B
11-14-2013, 08:50 PM
Digor Ossets are the last remaining surviving branch Scythian/Alan branch of Eastern Iranians the L23x51 is the same as found in the Mede[Talysh][Azeri][Lur] areas of Iran both are considered old and the same branch. R1a has a very poor showing[Ossets Digor] in terms of numbers in that region.


Yet there is plenty of R1a in the North Caucasus. We already discussed this. But it quite likely Ossetians have almost no ancestry from the Alans. They are probably just NW Caucasian speakers who adopted the language of the Kingdom of Alania whose actual Alan elite was destroyed by the Mongols.

Did they find any R1b from the study on Rosto-on-Don Scythians?
I find this whole story about the Alans and R1b-Z2103 to be unfulfilling.
From Ancestral Journeys* page 150 explaining the trace amounts of R1a1a in the Ossets.

The Alans were fighting men. Their story is one of battles against, and together with, Goths and Huns. By the time they retreated to the North Caucasus, the remnant of the Alans may have been overwhelmingly female. Please tell me more.


*Ancestral Journeys The Peopling of Europe from the First Venturers to the Vikings
Jean Manco 2013 Thames & Hudson

alan
11-14-2013, 09:04 PM
To be honest the Iranian speakers were along with the Balto-Slavs the one group I didnt expect too much in the way of R1b so, however it got into Iranian speakers it is a surprise to me just how Iranian associated R1b tends to be in the region. Its far higher among Iranian speakers than in other groups. I was actually surprised how poor it showed among Turkics. However the Altai paper that recently came out only showed it (M73) in a north Altai group who confusingly seem to have gone west before returning towards Alatai c. 1600AD under Russian pressure. That may or may not explain M73 that far east. However, Afanasievo is more NE Kazakhstan and NW China and adjacent areas of Russia and stops short of Altai as if it was blocking or controlling the mouth of the Dzangarian gate pass but not entering it. Tarim is also of the is a different route altogether . They smack to me of two different phases possibly both related to trade routes with the Afanasievo one apparently the earlier one and the Tarim one later.

Jean M
11-14-2013, 09:32 PM
From Ancestral Journeys* page 150 explaining the trace amounts of R1a1a in the Ossets.


The Alans were fighting men. Their story is one of battles against, and together with, Goths and Huns. By the time they retreated to the North Caucasus, the remnant of the Alans may have been overwhelmingly female.

Please tell me more.


The suggestion that the Ossets seem Iranian in the female line, but local in the male, was first made by Nasidze et al., Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians, Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68, 588–599.


Ossetians are a unique group in the Caucasus, in that they are the only ethnic group found on both the north and south slopes of the Caucasus, and moreover they speak an Indo-European language in contrast to their Caucasian-speaking neighbours. We analyzed mtDNA HV1 sequences, Y chromosome binary genetic markers, and Y chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) variability in three North Ossetian groups and compared these data to published data for two additional North Ossetian groups and for South Ossetians. The mtDNA data suggest a common origin for North and South Ossetians, whereas the Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. We suggest that a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours, is the most likely explanation for these results.

Jean M
11-14-2013, 09:33 PM
Sorry - double post.

Joe B
11-14-2013, 10:01 PM
The suggestion that the Ossets seem Iranian in the female line, but local in the male, was first made by Nasidze et al., Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians, Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68, 588–599.

Genetic clues to the Ossetian past (And so the mystery of the Ossetians’ past remains… Source: http://www.geocurrents.info/population-geography/genetic-clues-to-the-ossetian-past#ixzz2kevUTDbj)by Asya Pereltsvaig(2012) in Geocurrents looks at the Nasidze study but really doesn't add much.
Is it the case that (the majority of) Ossetian male ancestors came from an indigenous Caucasian group after all?

And so the mystery of the Ossetians’ past remains…

Source: http://www.geocurrents.info/population-geography/genetic-clues-to-the-ossetian-past#ixzz2kexDpQc0



Sorry about the off topic

nuadha
11-14-2013, 10:32 PM
nuada could you post a link to your little paper on R1b in Asia. It would be useful in this thread.

of course. here's the one your thinking of... http://distantconnections.wordpress.com/r1b-r1a-and-ie-with-a-special-focus-on-china/

I basically take a close look at the r1b in China and compare it with the frequency of r1a in china. I notice that r1a is diffuse while r1b concentrates on the steppe agricultural border. (my general idea is that r1a came to "replace" much of the r1b on the thinly populated steppe.

http://distantconnections.wordpress.com/25-2/

here is where I show that the same r1b hotspots are also the places of greater mtdna links with early indo europeans.

Generalissimo
11-15-2013, 02:49 AM
Afanasievo was a direct descendant of Yamnaya, at least based on archeology. So the fact that the Tarim Basin elite had so much mtDNA C4, and this haplogroup actually showed up in Ukrainian Neolithic and Kurgan samples is very intriguing. Based on that, archeology seems to match DNA quite well. If the Tarim Basin mummies were indeed the descendants of R1a/C4 Europeans, they would have had to leave the European steppe during the Copper Age.

But the actual Yamnaya results are coming in a few weeks. I got in touch with one of the editors from the journal where they'll be published and he said there was a delay in the peer review, but the relevant issue of the journal should appear early next year. I'm quietly hoping that the article we're all waiting for shows up before then in the early view section...

http://www.dguf.de/index.php?id=9

Silesian
11-15-2013, 06:19 AM
could you explain the problems you see?
I think you nailed it with your theory : )

Silesian
11-15-2013, 06:22 AM
Yet there is plenty of R1a in the North Caucasus. We already discussed this. But it quite likely Ossetians have almost no ancestry from the Alans. They are probably just NW Caucasian speakers who adopted the language of the Kingdom of Alania whose actual Alan elite was destroyed by the Mongols.

Did they find any R1b from the study on Rosto-on-Don Scythians?

Okay but just some of the R1b in the Osset project look similar to the ones in Poland and Jasz people in Hungary. Thanks for your input.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 01:28 PM
The suggestion that the Ossets seem Iranian in the female line, but local in the male, was first made by Nasidze et al., Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians, Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68, 588–599.


I agree that it is more likely they have preserved more IE ancestry on the female line due to the Mongol invasions. Of course I have no idea how much of that is from the Alans? Especially if we take into account some of that could be from Proto Indo-Europeans and from the Cimmerians and the Scythians who invaded West Asia? Ossetians are just one piece of the puzzle and their importance has been overstated. They most belong to a G2a1 subclade that is very young and exclusive to them so there is no use in drawing conclusions on what steppe tribes carried. And like I said before part of Ossetia is even located outside the borders of the Kingdom of Alania so all this is not surprising.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 01:47 PM
of course. here's the one your thinking of... http://distantconnections.wordpress.com/r1b-r1a-and-ie-with-a-special-focus-on-china/

I basically take a close look at the r1b in China and compare it with the frequency of r1a in china. I notice that r1a is diffuse while r1b concentrates on the steppe agricultural border. (my general idea is that r1a came to "replace" much of the r1b on the thinly populated steppe.

http://distantconnections.wordpress.com/25-2/

here is where I show that the same r1b hotspots are also the places of greater mtdna links with early indo europeans.


What makes you think the Karasuk culture's push is related to Tocharian? Karasuk is too late in history for it to be anything other than Indo-Iranian. Its also extended too far west to be Tocharian. Didn't the Karasuk samples show up as carrying R1a and mtDNA U4 and U5a? Its successor culture Tagar is related to Scythian cultures and showed R1a and mtDNA T and H. Also what R1b in Northern Pakistan? That high frequency of R1b in Northern Pakistan is based on a small sample size and exists mainly in one population, who are the Hazaras. They are actually likely very recent transplants from Afghanistan and also have a lot of Mongol/Turkic ancestry. So why are you representing them as some sort of ancient population who preserved Yuezhi lineages while none of the actual surrounding native populations did? They Hazaras didn't exist in Pakistan till the 19th century. The Yuezhi push extended far past Northern Pakistan. And no R1b there either minus what Iranians and Turks brought there.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 01:53 PM
Okay but just some of the R1b in the Osset project look similar to the ones in Poland and Jasz people in Hungary. Thanks for your input.

Just looking at the Jasz project tells me that they are very mixed. Hungary is in a way the genetic crossroad of Europe and most IE branches have known to have had a presence in Hungary at some time so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions based on what the Jasz people (and Hungarians for that matter) carry.

Jean M
11-15-2013, 02:55 PM
Ossetians are just one piece of the puzzle and their importance has been overstated. They most belong to a G2a1 subclade that is very young and exclusive to them ....

G2-P18 itself is not exclusive to them. It is just found at a higher percentage in them than in other Caucasian groups, as Balanovsky et al * showed. It is too old in the Caucasus to have arrived with the Alans. Balanovsky showed that it was the R1b in the Ossets that was of the right age to have arrived with the Alans. The split of G2-P18 into two subclades, one found in Digorians and the other in Ironians was roughly around the same date.

Picture the scene. A group of weary Alans take refuge in the Caucasus. They bury their dead. (There are elite Alan tombs.) The warrior males have been culled by frequent fighting and that continues for a while. So let's suppose a chief dies with no male heir. He has two daughters. They marry local men, both G2-P18. Their families proliferate over the centuries because of their elite status. Centuries later we have the Digorians and Ironians. There is a small amount of R1a1 in them, but we can guess that most of their R1a1a died on the battlefield. There is a parallel case with the Norman baronial lines in England, but I won't digress into it. Anyone interested can see here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/normans.shtml

* Oleg Balanovsky et al., Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region, MBE early access 2011. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/10/2905

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 03:10 PM
G2-P18 itself is not exclusive to them. It is just found at a higher percentage in them than in other Caucasian groups, as Balanovsky et al * showed. It is too old in the Caucasus to have arrived with the Alans. Balanovsky showed that it was the R1b in the Ossets that was of the right age to have arrived with the Alans. The split of G2-P18 into two subclades, one found in Digorians and the other in Ironians was roughly around the same date.

Picture the scene. A group of weary Alans take refuge in the Caucasus. They bury their dead. (There are elite Alan tombs.) The warrior males have been culled by frequent fighting and that continues for a while. So let's suppose a chief dies with no male heir. He has two daughters. They marry local men, both G2-P18. Their families proliferate over the centuries because of their elite status. Centuries later we have the Digorians and Ironians. There is a small amount of R1a1 in them, but we can guess that most of their R1a1a died on the battlefield. There is a parallel case with the Normans, but I won't digress into it.

* Oleg Balanovsky et al., Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region, MBE early access 2011. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/10/2905

I meant to say exclusive to them and their neighbors (as I have said in previous posts). Everything I have seen is that their variety of G doesn't exist outside of them and neighboring North Caucasian groups who all have it at significantly frequencies. Seems like a very localized group

Jean M
11-15-2013, 03:15 PM
I meant to say exclusive to them and their neighbors ... Seems like a very localized group

Indeed. Which makes a nonsense of claims years ago that Y-DNA G was the Scythian signature. But I hope we have moved on from there. :)

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 03:34 PM
Indeed. Which makes a nonsense of claims years ago that Y-DNA G was the Scythian signature. But I hope we have moved on from there. :)

I never understood that. Those people were arguing that large Y-DNA G population popped up out of nowhere in the steppe despite more ancient R1a samples. I do think some Central Asian Scythians carried Y-DNA G though if they had indeed absorbed the Keltiminar culture's inhabitants.

Jean M
11-15-2013, 03:51 PM
I do think some Central Asian Scythians carried Y-DNA G though if they had indeed absorbed the Keltiminar culture's inhabitants.

Why would the Keltiminar culture's inhabitants be carrying Y-DNA G? They were fishermen and foragers. Russian archaeologists have a confusing habit of labelling any culture with pottery as Neolithic. The Keltiminar culture is not derived from the Near East. Their pottery is not derived from the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 03:58 PM
Why would the Keltiminar culture's inhabitants be carrying Y-DNA G? They were fishermen and foragers. Russian archaeologists have a confusing habit of labelling any culture with pottery as Neolithic. The Keltiminar culture is not derived from the Near East. Their pottery is not derived from the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture

I read before that they were basically the descendants of the Jeitun culture who had adopted a Hunter Gatherer lifestyle. So what would they have been carrying? I really have doubts on the wikipedia page's statement arguing for them being Uralic speakers.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 03:59 PM
And the descendant cultures all seem to be Andronovo variants.

Silesian
11-15-2013, 06:01 PM
Just looking at the Jasz project tells me that they are very mixed. Hungary is in a way the genetic crossroad of Europe and most IE branches have known to have had a presence in Hungary at some time so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions based on what the Jasz people (and Hungarians for that matter) carry.
Okay, thanks. I thought that the Jasz were connected on the same branch with Digor Ossets & Pashtun R1b L23x51.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 06:09 PM
Okay, thanks. I thought that the Jasz were connected on the same branch with Digor Ossets & Pashtun R1b L23x51.

It is possible but their R1b could just as easily be from Hungary.

Jean M
11-15-2013, 06:16 PM
I read before that they were basically the descendants of the Jeitun culture who had adopted a Hunter Gatherer lifestyle.

This is the same sort of speculation that some Swedish archaeologists indulged in about Pitted Ware. It arrived in Sweden after farming, so they thought it represented farmers returning to foraging. They were proved completely wrong by ancient DNA. The farmers had the usual farming mtDNA haplogroups. The Pitted Ware foragers carried U4 and U5, which we find in European Mesolithic foragers. They were new arrivals from regions in which farming had not been taken up. They were probably Uralic speakers.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 07:11 PM
This is the same sort of speculation that some Swedish archaeologists indulged in about Pitted Ware. It arrived in Sweden after farming, so they thought it represented farmers returning to foraging. They were proved completely wrong by ancient DNA. The farmers had the usual farming mtDNA haplogroups. The Pitted Ware foragers carried U4 and U5, which we find in European Mesolithic foragers. They were new arrivals from regions in which farming had not been taken up. They were probably Uralic speakers.


So what do you think lineages do you the Keltiminar culture was represented by? I doubt they were related to European Mesolithic hunter gatherers and it seems just about every lineage in Central Asia can be traced to Neolithic farmers , Andronovo or the Turks.

Jean M
11-15-2013, 07:29 PM
.. just about every lineage in Central Asia can be traced to Neolithic farmers, Andronovo or the Turks.

What makes you think that? During the Last Glacial Maximum, the coniferous forest around Lake Baikal and the upper reaches of the Yenisei River valley provided a refuge for hunter-gatherers. They acquired pointed-based pottery from further east. As the climate improved, they brought knowledge of pottery westwards, where it arrived on the middle Volga by 7000 BC, making it the first pottery in Europe. We have mtDNA C from the pottery makers of Lake Baikal c. 5500 BC. We have C mixed with U5 and U4 (and U2e) in foragers at Sopka, Russia 4000-3000 BC, and we have C among the Dnieper-Donets people of Ukraine c. 5400 BC who made the same type of pottery.

The Y-DNA of Lake Baikal people was most probably N and their language an ancestor of Uralic.

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 07:38 PM
What makes you think that? During the Last Glacial Maximum, the coniferous forest around Lake Baikal and the upper reaches of the Yenisei River valley provided a refuge for hunter-gatherers. They acquired pointed-based pottery from further east. As the climate improved, they brought knowledge of pottery westwards, where it arrived on the middle Volga by 7000 BC, making it the first pottery in Europe. We have mtDNA C from the pottery makers of Lake Baikal c. 5500 BC. We have C mixed with U5 and U4 (and U2e) in foragers at Sopka, Russia 4000-3000 BC, and we have C among the Dnieper-Donets people of Ukraine c. 5400 BC who made the same type of pottery.

The Y-DNA of Lake Baikal people was most probably N and their language an ancestor of Uralic.

Which lineage in Central Asia is represented by Keltiminar then? Its unlikely they carried Y-DNA N. Whaere did it disappear to then? And why didn't it expand south or west from Keltiminar? Bronze Age groups in Kazakhstan were remarkably West Eurasian in terms of mtDNA and I doubt East Eurasian lineages existed there. Everywhere else Andronovo went they absorbed East Eurasian mtDNAs but that it didn't happen in Western Kazakhstan is pretty indicative that the Keltiminar population likely had very few links with Siberia or Uralic speakers. The location of Keltiminar is in Central Asia proper and south of the Mesolithic corridor that stretched from Iberia to Siberia.

alan
11-15-2013, 08:25 PM
Not quite. It was a branch off from the same immediate ancestral root as Yamnaya and possibly slighly older than Yamnaya. To be honest I am not going to argue against most movements east being heavily R1a dominated because

1. I suspect R1a was located in the pre-Yamanaya and ultimately Yamnaya groups around the Volga-Urals while R1b may have been located originally further west in perhaps in Sredny Stog groups in the Dneister-Azov-Don area and/or pre-Maykop groups (there is evidence of contact between the two). This geographical nuancing may have had a huge impact on the earliest phases of movement out of the steppe c. 4300BC-3400bc which was largely from the south Ukraine into the Balkans and Lower Danube. It is likely that any R1b-steppe link was within this geographical area.

2. I also believe that R1b also has a temporal difference from R1a and that R1b exited the steppes into Old Europe in the pre-Yamnaya phase or perhaps was also shunted along by R1a.

3. My feeling is that R1b through a position closer to the steppe-farming world boundary was semi-adapted into the farming world, very much networked into it, familiar with the neighbouring farming lands, familiar with the Carpatho-Balkan metal network and genetically mixed with farmers (craniological evidence from Sredny Stog and Skelya sites). Steppe groups on the Dnieper face to face with farmers and heavily interacting with them were probably a very different kettle of fish around the time of the fall of Old Europe and movement into that area would have been less of a shock for all concerned. The Caspian-Volga area where I believe R1a may have had its position of strength back c. 3500BC was very much a different world and it was also where developed mobile pastoralism really probably took root c. 3500BC. So, they probably were much more adapted to that kind of lifestyle compared to westernmost steppe groups who had moved into old Europe many centuries earlier. Another aspect of a location for R1a in that area is they had one foot in the steppe and one foot in the forest steppe. That I believe became a factor in the later distribution of R1a which seems to have found it easy to penetrated both the steppe and forrest steppe. This contrasted with my hypothetical R1b steppe groups living right at the farming interface.

Between geographical, temporal, environmental, subsistence and cultural nuances that developed as one moved from east to west between the Dnieper and the Volga around 4000BC, a lot about the future settlement choices of R1b and R1a beyond the steppes might be explained.




Afanasievo was a direct descendant of Yamnaya, at least based on archeology. So the fact that the Tarim Basin elite had so much mtDNA C4, and this haplogroup actually showed up in Ukrainian Neolithic and Kurgan samples is very intriguing. Based on that, archeology seems to match DNA quite well. If the Tarim Basin mummies were indeed the descendants of R1a/C4 Europeans, they would have had to leave the European steppe during the Copper Age.

But the actual Yamnaya results are coming in a few weeks. I got in touch with one of the editors from the journal where they'll be published and he said there was a delay in the peer review, but the relevant issue of the journal should appear early next year. I'm quietly hoping that the article we're all waiting for shows up before then in the early view section...

http://www.dguf.de/index.php?id=9

newtoboard
11-15-2013, 09:20 PM
Not quite. It was a branch off from the same immediate ancestral root as Yamnaya and possibly slighly older than Yamnaya. To be honest I am not going to argue against most movements east being heavily R1a dominated because

1. I suspect R1a was located in the pre-Yamanaya and ultimately Yamnaya groups around the Volga-Urals while R1b may have been located originally further west in perhaps in Sredny Stog groups in the Dneister-Azov-Don area and/or pre-Maykop groups (there is evidence of contact between the two). This geographical nuancing may have had a huge impact on the earliest phases of movement out of the steppe c. 4300BC-3400bc which was largely from the south Ukraine into the Balkans and Lower Danube. It is likely that any R1b-steppe link was within this geographical area.

2. I also believe that R1b also has a temporal difference from R1a and that R1b exited the steppes into Old Europe in the pre-Yamnaya phase or perhaps was also shunted along by R1a.

3. My feeling is that R1b through a position closer to the steppe-farming world boundary was semi-adapted into the farming world, very much networked into it, familiar with the neighbouring farming lands, familiar with the Carpatho-Balkan metal network and genetically mixed with farmers (craniological evidence from Sredny Stog and Skelya sites). Steppe groups on the Dnieper face to face with farmers and heavily interacting with them were probably a very different kettle of fish around the time of the fall of Old Europe and movement into that area would have been less of a shock for all concerned. The Caspian-Volga area where I believe R1a may have had its position of strength back c. 3500BC was very much a different world and it was also where developed mobile pastoralism really probably took root c. 3500BC. So, they probably were much more adapted to that kind of lifestyle compared to westernmost steppe groups who had moved into old Europe many centuries earlier. Another aspect of a location for R1a in that area is they had one foot in the steppe and one foot in the forest steppe. That I believe became a factor in the later distribution of R1a which seems to have found it easy to penetrated both the steppe and forrest steppe. This contrasted with my hypothetical R1b steppe groups living right at the farming interface.

Between geographical, temporal, environmental, subsistence and cultural nuances that developed as one moved from east to west between the Dnieper and the Volga around 4000BC, a lot about the future settlement choices of R1b and R1a beyond the steppes might be explained.

I don't get this. I really doubt that lineages are adapted to certain worlds or lifestyles. Even if they are there doesn't seem to be any problem adapting. The R1a expansion east and south was driven by metallurgy and trade with the civilizations of Asia. And those groups also seemed to have no problem living in the farming world whether it was the oases farming world of most of Central Asia or the fertile Ferghana valley. I also don't believe the R1a groups were some sort of pure Mesolithic remnant. We can tell from Andronovo and Xiahoe mtdna there were plenty of Neolithic lineages and they were likely mixed with farmers.

Ian B
11-16-2013, 12:58 AM
I don't get this. I really doubt that lineages are adapted to certain worlds or lifestyles. Even if they are there doesn't seem to be any problem adapting. The R1a expansion east and south was driven by metallurgy and trade with the civilizations of Asia. And those groups also seemed to have no problem living in the farming world whether it was the oases farming world of most of Central Asia or the fertile Ferghana valley. I also don't believe the R1a groups were some sort of pure Mesolithic remnant. We can tell from Andronovo and Xiahoe mtdna there were plenty of Neolithic lineages and they were likely mixed with farmers.

The origins and movement of R1b were the subjects of a very long thread on another forum, so long in fact that it became confusing for newcomers like me. R1b has been found in the Tarim Basin and other East European/North Asian regions. R1b seems also to be the predominant yDNA of western Europe, including Ireland. What I have missed somewhere is where did R1b originate. Something tells me in north eastern Europe, but I'm sure that more knowledgeable members will put me on the right track. On the same track, the Cuman people who lived east of the Yellow River in modern day China are said to have had blonde hair, were they also R1b?

parasar
11-16-2013, 04:11 AM
The origins and movement of R1b were the subjects of a very long thread on another forum, so long in fact that it became confusing for newcomers like me. R1b has been found in the Tarim Basin and other East European/North Asian regions. R1b seems also to be the predominant yDNA of western Europe, including Ireland. What I have missed somewhere is where did R1b originate. Something tells me in north eastern Europe, but I'm sure that more knowledgeable members will put me on the right track. On the same track, the Cuman people who lived east of the Yellow River in modern day China are said to have had blonde hair, were they also R1b?

Not in ancient DNA. At the time of the Tarim mummies R1b was likely mostly in western Europe and had not punched through to the east (to some extent that actually is the case even now). R1b outside in the middle-east looks to me to match the European (incld. Anatolia) influenced communities the most.

Jean M
11-16-2013, 11:31 AM
What I have missed somewhere is where did R1b originate.

We'd love to know! People speculate because there is no way to be absolutely certain about this. Even when we get far more ancient DNA than we have today, there is no guarantee that archaeologists will have happened upon the very first man in whom the SNP M343/PF6242 appeared. We will never be able to state - that's the man! But it will be a lot easier to make logical deductions than it is at the moment. That is why you will see several different speculative maps around of the origin and spread of R1b. Here is mine, but remember that it is speculation and not fact.

925

alan
11-16-2013, 01:28 PM
As Jean says its guesswork. Me have probable R* in Siberia about 22000BC in the early LGM. We have what in all probability if some form of P312 in Germany c. 2600BC in beaker graves. No ancient DNA data points in between. Its clearly come from the east somewhere judging by the overall pattern of R*, R1* R1b*, R1b1* etc. R1* may have arisen timewise around 18000-16000BC at the end of the LGM. So there can be no distinction between R1b and R1a during the LGM as neither existed as separate clades. We now know R* was present in Siberia in the early LGM and archaeology shows that area was abandoned for some millenia very shortly after the Mal'ta boy died. Modern population studies make it very unlikely that his immediate descendants did a short move south. It seems they must have headed west through central Asia. At that period there was a stark choice caused by the desertification of the area between the Caspian and China - you either had to move north of the desert following the tundra steppe which would ultimately enter Europe at the north side of the Caspian OR you had to move south of the desert which would ultimately lead to the south shore of the Caspian. It has to be one or the other and at this stage this journey would still have been done by R* and perhaps very early R1* lineages if we assume it was made from c. 22000BC-18000BC. Certainly there was no distinction between R1a and b at this time as they didnt yet exist and their ancestor in this period were one and the same man.

The question then is whether R* on its journey west from Siberia took the route north or the route south of the north central Asian LGM desert. Both ecozones were occupied by humans in this period so either is possible. The trail of very ancient R, R1, R1b and a clades seems to point to the southern route although they are very rare. One major caveat though is that lineage extiction seems to have been the norm in pre-farming times and applied on the steppes right up to 4 or 5000BC so we have absolutely no idea of what y lines existed north of the central Asian LGM desert belt because no ancient y DNA branch lines of any sort from that period survive in that ecozone. So, while what evidence there is supports a southern route of retreat from Siberia towards the south Caspian there remains a small chance it is misleading.

As R1b and R1a do not emerge as distinct clades until after 16000BC we know that any geographical separation has to have happened after this time. Around this time huge changes in the then-diminutive Caspian Sea took place and over the next few millenia the sea became emormous - far bigger than today's and was linked in a cascade effect to the Black and Aral Seas. That to me must have had a dramatic effect on shoreline populations on the Caspian where I suspect R1* arose shortly before. That could in theory mark the start of significant geographical patterning among R1 and the start of R1a and b distinctions. However, that is just a possibility and may not have happened. We dont really have any modern representatives of branchings lying between palaeolithic P25 and the copper age clades like M269, M73 etc so there is a big gap in understanding. The only clue is that M269 and M73 do share a much more recent SNP (P297) from c. 9000BC while their shared ancestry with V88 is much more distant with the last major shared SNP being P25, one of the earliest SNPs in R1b's existence, perhaps 15000bc.

So, when trying to understand the origins of M269 it is important to remember that its slightly older brother M73 is the best clue and that P25*, V88 are a lot less relevant. To put it another way the ancestor of M269 and M73 was one man c. 9000BC. That was a time when the Caspian had shrunk back to something like modern size, the Younger Dryas cold dry spell had just ended (this led to another abandonment of the area east of the Caspian) and conditions were improving. We know that their shared P297* line didnt produce the two clades until 4 or 5000 years later and that no P297* people have ever been found. So, we can be sure the ancestors of M269 and M73 were not in a booming farming area c. 9000-4/5000BC and were barely reproducing themselves. That is a sure sign that it wasnt located in Mesopotamia, the Levant, most of Anatolia, west Iran etc. It must have been in an area where developed farming or other stimuli to growth didnt occur until the very end of the Neoltihic. Archaeologically the best fit is the western steppes, Caspian Iran, the north Caucasus. The lack of any P297* makes it impossible to know where the ancestor of the M269 and M73 lineages lived c. 9000-4/5000BC. All you can do is look at them today and try and estimate where is a plausible common point of origin. M73 is a Urals/central Asia clade with some presence as far as the Dniester in the west but very little presence in SW Asia. Broadly speaking it is northern relative to the early farming zone. Earlier M269 is mainly represented by L23xL51 as well as a little M269*. Those both fall broadly into the circum pontic-caspian area. The two only co-occur in a few places like the Balkans, the Volga-Urals and NW Iran. In turn those clades probably only co-occur in any significant numbers in the western steppe-urals area. Every time I look at this I get more and more convinced that a location around the western steppes or north Caucasus is most likely for the origin of M269.

The dates suggested by variance for M73 (5000BC), M269 (4000BC) and L23 (3500BC) fall into a period that is one where the only big story was the start of infiltration of Old Europe from the steppes which may have commenced as early as 4300BC and climaxed in the Yamnanya c. 3200BC. This period saw the collapse of the farmers and the rise of the steppe peoples. The dates of the sudden appearance of these R1b clades would make a great deal more sense if it was linked to the steppe peoples spread into Old Europe.

If this model is right then it is likely that somewhere in the Lower Danube or north Balkans that the L23* ancestral line of western European R1b was located for a time. There were a number of Balkan's groups of mixed steppe-farmer origins. I personally think that the particular L23xL51 branch that led to L51 ultimately may have settled c. 4000BC in the west Romania-east Hungary area where copper dagger symbolism and metallurgy is associated with the Bodrogkeresztur culture in an area with a rich copper working area received Suvorovo type steppe settlers at this time - who probably wanted to control the metal trade. This is my best shot at a missing link between the steppe and the Alps.

The next hint we have is L51* which some have dated to c. 3000BC but could be older. It has its most cohesive block of distribution from the Tyrol through north Italy to SE France suggesting an Alpine route. This becomes too scattered elsewhere to read anything into it. I personally think its best archaeological reflection is probably the zone of Remedello influence, an culture that used dagger symbolism and seemed to have a prominent role in the introduction of copper working, mining etc into Italy in the centuries around 3500BC. I personally think that a lot of the developed central European beaker culture is prefigured in Remedello (daggers, barbed and tanged arrows/archery, prestige of individuals in burials, even the beaker craniological type). I personally think the early beaker network from Iberia to Italy was some kind of trade network was associated with the running down of the Ligurian mines used by Remedello which operated c. 3500-2600BC and the wish to trade with Iberia for copper. I think it was largely a female driven cultural flow out of Iberia and that the actual developed beaker culture full package of behavioral traits as we think of it owed more to the cultural traits we see in cultures like Remedello and corded ware. I personally think R1b was likely associated with the Remedello groups and only reached Iberia at the start of the beaker phase through male middleman from the Liguria area or adjacent while females flowed in the opposite direction with the trade and brought some of the Iberian cultural traits that Harrison and Heyd call the proto-beaker package with them.


The origins and movement of R1b were the subjects of a very long thread on another forum, so long in fact that it became confusing for newcomers like me. R1b has been found in the Tarim Basin and other East European/North Asian regions. R1b seems also to be the predominant yDNA of western Europe, including Ireland. What I have missed somewhere is where did R1b originate. Something tells me in north eastern Europe, but I'm sure that more knowledgeable members will put me on the right track. On the same track, the Cuman people who lived east of the Yellow River in modern day China are said to have had blonde hair, were they also R1b?

nuadha
11-19-2013, 07:25 AM
Afanasievo was a direct descendant of Yamnaya, at least based on archeology. So the fact that the Tarim Basin elite had so much mtDNA C4, and this haplogroup actually showed up in Ukrainian Neolithic and Kurgan samples is very intriguing. Based on that, archeology seems to match DNA quite well. If the Tarim Basin mummies were indeed the descendants of R1a/C4 Europeans, they would have had to leave the European steppe during the Copper Age.

But the actual Yamnaya results are coming in a few weeks. I got in touch with one of the editors from the journal where they'll be published and he said there was a delay in the peer review, but the relevant issue of the journal should appear early next year. I'm quietly hoping that the article we're all waiting for shows up before then in the early view section...

http://www.dguf.de/index.php?id=9

I'm confused by this. The results are out in a few weeks but the paper(?) will be out in 2014? What do you mean by the results are out; I thought they've been known to the researchers for a long time.

also, could you tell me who the authors are?

Generalissimo
11-19-2013, 08:11 AM
I'm confused by this. The results are out in a few weeks but the paper(?) will be out in 2014? What do you mean by the results are out; I thought they've been known to the researchers for a long time.

also, could you tell me who the authors are?

What I mean is that we'll know the results when they're published, probably in a few weeks, or perhaps any day in the early view, here:

http://www.dguf.de/index.php?id=9

This is the paper that will be published:


Die archäologische Interpretation populationsgenetischer Daten. Erfahrungen einer interdisziplinären Zusammenarbeit zum Thema Mobilität und Migration in der eurasischen Steppe vom 4. bis zum 1. Jt. v. Chr.

Claudia Gerling, Elke Kaiser, Martina Unterländer, Sandra Wilde

Vor Kurzem ist ein transdisziplinär angelegtes und vom BMBF gefördertes Projekt zu Ende gegangen, bei dem paläogenetische Untersuchungen an prähistorischen Populationen im eurasischen Steppenraum durchgeführt wurden. Zwei Teilvorhaben befassten sich mit den populationsgenetischen Implikationen (Projektleiter J. Burger) von mobil lebenden Gemeinschaften, wie sie für die Zeit vom 4. und 3. Jt. v. Chr. (Projektleiter W. Schier) aufgrund von archäologischen Indikatoren und für die Skythenzeit im 1. Jt. v. Chr. (Projektleiter H. Parzinger) zusätzlich noch anhand historischer Überlieferungen in der semiariden Steppenlandschaft rekonstruiert werden. Außerdem lassen sich für die genannten Zeiten bestimmte großräumig verbreitete Kultur-erscheinungen und Innovationen konstatieren, die mit Modellen von Diffusion oder Migration unterschiedlich erklärt werden. Die Daten, die von der paläogenetischen Forschung auf der einen Seite und von den Altertumswissenschaften auf der anderen Seite ausgewertet werden, unterscheiden sich zum Teil deutlich voneinander. In der Populationsgenetik werden die ermittelten Daten möglichst umfassend biostatistisch erfasst und mithilfe von Simulationsmodellen Aussagen über Bevölkerungsdynamiken getroffen, wobei einzelne Individuen oder auch Fundplätze meist keine Rolle mehr spielen. In der Archäologie wird hingegen angesichts der zur Verfügung stehenden und als eher gering eingestuften Datenmenge vor allem eine individualisierte Betrachtung der analysierten Komplexe bevorzugt. Somit entstehen methodische Probleme bei der Zusammenarbeit. In unserem Vortrag möchten wir auf die ständig existente Diskussion eingehen, wie methodischen Grenzen, die durch die Arbeitsweise der beteiligten Disziplinen entstehen, begegnet werden kann. Dazu stellen wir exemplarisch Ergebnisse aus den genannten Projekten vor.

So it seems the angle they're going with is that archeology doesn't match ancient DNA. But I doubt this paper will offer any insights into the origins and expansions of Western European R1b, because I think it's becoming obvious that the spread of R1b across Western Europe was a post-Proto-Indo-European phenomenon from former bell Beaker Culture hot spots.

alan
11-19-2013, 12:43 PM
What you just described is actually a great description of how L11 expansions happened but its just part of the story - the L11 and downstream part in western Europe. However this didnt appear from nowhere - M269 has a pre-beaker history. It appeared from somewhere along the zone where R1b shed upstream branches like L51*, L23xL51, M269xL23. Only when you include those branches do you fill in some of the pre-beaker part of the M269 story. The earliest two of those clearly show M269 before its beaker phase, whatever its earlier origins, must have passed through the Balkans on its way west. The details may be impossible to reconstruct with confidence based on modern populations studies but that much seems clear.

However, I agree that I am not expecting M269 to turn up easily because I believe it is most likely that it will be discovered in pre-Yamnaya groups largely in south Ukraine and am not expecting M269 to turn up until those cultures are tested. Yamnaya itself may well have been primarily driven by R1a. However there were a number of much earlier steppe groups entering into the Balkans from 4200BC onwards, linked to Sredny Stog groups around the Dnieper. Those groups, whatever their royal dynasties were, clearly were genetically complex and simply could not have been mono-clade or even mono-haplogroup populations.




That
But I doubt this paper will offer any insights into the origins and expansions of Western European R1b, because I think it's becoming obvious that the spread of R1b across Western Europe was a post-Proto-Indo-European phenomenon from former bell Beaker Culture hot spots.

newtoboard
11-19-2013, 04:01 PM
The Dzungarian basin seems like a good place for M73 to have been absorbed by both R1a Iranian nomads migrating past Central Asia and for R1a Afanasievo nomads migrating to the Tarim from South Siberia. I still think the Central Asia mountain corridor would be another good location for M73 prior to being absorbed by IE speakers.

alan
12-15-2013, 02:39 PM
This paper is interesting on the subject of Afanasievo etc


http://www.academia.edu/1493571/Multiregional_Emergence_of_Mobile_Pastoralism_and_ Non-Uniform_Complexity_across_Eurasia

Generalissimo
12-15-2013, 03:18 PM
Those groups, whatever their royal dynasties were, clearly were genetically complex and simply could not have been mono-clade or even mono-haplogroup populations.

And you know this how?


This paper is interesting on the subject of Afanasievo etc

http://www.academia.edu/1493571/Multiregional_Emergence_of_Mobile_Pastoralism_and_ Non-Uniform_Complexity_across_Eurasia

Maybe, but that guy doesn't even know what genetic drift is exactly.